Inside the Science of Cat Happiness with Dr. Zazie Todd

“My cat is being difficult” is one of the most common lines I hear as a clinical feline behaviorist, and it’s usually pointing to something deeper than “bad behavior.” I’m joined by Dr. Zazie Todd, psychologist, animal behavior expert, psychologist and author of Purr: The Science of Making Your Cat Happy, to unpack what’s really going on when cats swat, bite, hide, scratch the wrong things, or seem moody and unpredictable.

We get practical fast: how to set up your home for feline well-being with simple hiding spots and perches, how boredom shows up in indoor cats, and why choices and control matter so much to cat welfare. We also dig into reward-based training and clicker training, including how to teach a cat to feel safe in a carrier so vet visits don’t turn into a wrestling match. Along the way, we talk about why punishment and dominance myths harm the human-cat bond and can increase fear, anxiety, and aggression.

Then we zoom in on communication. We break down the body language that people miss, why the “belly flop” isn’t always an invitation, and what to watch for when petting turns into overstimulation. If you live with multiple cats, we cover how to tell real fighting from play by looking for role swaps, loose bodies, pauses, and whether claws are out. We also share where feline behavior research is growing and what we still need to learn, especially about kittens and socialization.

If you want a calmer home and a happier cat, listen, share it with a fellow cat guardian, and please subscribe and leave a rating or review so more people can find science-based cat behavior help.

Transcript

Welcome And Why Cats Seem Difficult

Kristiina Wilson 0:02

Hello and welcome to episode 44 of Hiss and Tell. If you've ever Googled why is my cat being difficult, this is the episode for you. Today I am joined by Dr. Zazi Todd to talk about what's really going on with our cats, what they actually need to be happy, and how we can stop misinterpreting their behavior. It's not your cat that's the problem. If you're enjoying the podcast, please take a moment to rate and review it. It really helps us grow and reach more cat guardians who need this information. And if you're struggling with your cat's behavior and want personalized help, you can learn more about working with me at catitude-adjustment.com. All right, let's start the show. Welcome to another episode of Hiss and Tell. I am your host, animal behaviorist Kristiina Wilson. And with me today is Dr. Zazie Todd. She is an animal behavior expert, psychologist, and the award-winning author of Purr, The Science of Making Your Cat Happy. So welcome, Zazie Todd. Hello, thank you for having me on the show. I don't know why I said welcome and then your full name. That was so weird. Also, it's like it's all fine. It's all good. That was so awkward. I'm sorry. So can you tell us a little bit about you, about what you do, your background in psychology? Tell us who you are.

Dr. Zazie Todd 1:19

Yeah, so my background is in human psychology, actually. And then it was quite a long time ago I started writing my blog because I suddenly became aware that there was an increasing amount of canine science and feline science. And I thought this is very cool. I had just finished actually an MFA in creative writing, and I wasn't quite sure what I wanted to do next. So it was a bit of a career change already. And then I was like, wow, this is so cool, and it is so relevant to our everyday lives with cats and dogs. So I started writing my blog about it, and subsequently it was from writing that that my books came about. So Wag the Science of Making Your Dog Happy was first. But I always knew that I would also want to write a book about cats and how to make your cat happy. So when PER came next, I was very, very happy, very excited about that. So that's good. And I sometimes work with cats or dog clients, not so much at the moment because writing books at the same time as doing other stuff actually, it's quite hard to fit everything in. I know. Um so that varies depending on how much time I have. But I I love helping people to understand their dog or their cat better. And I think cats especially need this because there's even less understanding of cats than there is of dogs. And so many people, they mean the best for their cats, they're doing it, you know, the very best that they can. But because society doesn't have very up-to-date ideas about cats, they're making some kinds of mistakes that are things, some of them very, very easily fixed, and they will make a big, big difference to the cat and therefore also to the person's relationship with the cat. And I really like being able to share that kind of information with people.

Quick Wins For A Happier Cat

Kristiina Wilson 2:59

I agree. I see that daily in my own practice. Just things that I think are out there, especially when people Google, oh, like how can I fix this insert common behavior problem here with the cat? And then unfortunately, what comes up with with Google searching is really I outdated outdated information or just outright misinformation. Um, and and certainly not things that we've updated in current behavior science, haven't made their way out into general knowledge that's just out there when you search. And so there's there's so much unwinding of that that has to be done, but it's not difficult most of the time. So if if somebody wanted to dramatically improve their cat's life starting today, what what would be a few of the things that you would say that they should try?

New Science On Cat Human Bonds

Dr. Zazie Todd 3:42

I mean, there are lots of things that people can do, but I think the cat's environment makes such a big difference to how happy they are. So one of the first things I would do is look around your home, especially at the rooms where your cat likes to spend a lot of time, and make sure that your cat has lots of hiding places and perching places. So just thinking about the space as your cat uses it, and often it's very easy. It doesn't even necessarily require you to spend any money. I mean, a cardboard box is just so wonderful for cats, you can just cut a hole in, turn it upside down, you've immediately got a free hiding place for your cat, which they probably are gonna like. You can make a hole on the other side, now you've got a tunnel for your cat. You know, there are so many things you can do that are cheap and easy, but cats really like to be able to hide and they will feel safer if they have spaces to hide. So I think that's an important thing. And the other part of that, of course, is that you have to actually let them hide if they're wanting to hide. And so often people will want to go and get their cat and bring them out to come and interact, but it's not really a safe space for the cat if that is what is going to happen to them. So that's one of them. I think another really important thing is to know that cats can be trained. And there is this stereotype that cats can't be trained, but especially I would make time to teach your cat to like their cat carrier because it makes such a big difference to taking them to the vet. It makes it so much easier for you, it makes it easier for your cat at the vet, and there is some research that shows that actually it makes the vet exam go much better once you actually get to the vet, if they've been trained. So even if your cat currently hates their carrier, you can teach them to like it. It's just gonna take longer than if they were a kitten who didn't have much prior experience with it. I've got a training plan at the back of her, you can find training plans on the internet. It all involves using nice treats and rewards and helping the cat to feel safe, and that makes a big, big difference. Um, I think those are probably the main things, but another one would just be to give your cats a bit more to do so that they're not bored. Because an indoors only cat in particular, they can't, if they get bored, they can't go outside and find something to do. They can only stay in their environment. So that means more time for play, it means paying attention to scent and giving them scent enrichment because cats have great noses and it involves giving them choices in things as well, and it probably involves giving them some food puzzle toys too, so that they've got a bit more to do.

Kristiina Wilson 6:03

Yep. I 100% agree with all of those things. So I I also wanted to ask you, because a lot of what you do is translating new research into kind of digestible reporting for the lay person or for the regular pet owner, what are some of the most exciting developments in companion animal behavior science recently or in the last few years, especially about cats?

Dr. Zazie Todd 6:28

I think one of the things is simply that it it exists really. Yeah. Because there is so much more research than there was, and I think cats are still lagging behind dogs in terms of the amount of research that gets done on them, but it's happening. So that in itself is like super exciting. But I think one of the most interesting things is to do with cats' relationship with people, because there is this stereotype that cats do not care about people, and it's not true. And of course, there are individual differences, but a well-socialised cat is actually going to care quite a bit about their guardian, even if they're not a cuddly kind of cat, they're still going to be choosing to spend time with you, like even if they're choosing to sit next to you on the sofa instead of on your lap, they're still choosing to spend time with you. And so I think recognising that that bond is there and that it does matter to the cat, actually that's like a huge turnabout in what people think about cats. And I think it's really important for people to know. And I think, you know, cat people, people who've loved cats all their lives, probably know this already, but it's not the societal view of cats, which is full of stereotypes which are often very negative. So I think the fact that you do matter to your cat, probably, most likely, like for most cats, obviously for feral cats it's not, but but your cat who was socialized as a kitten, they they care about you, they want to spend time with you. Your presence can help them make them feel a bit more safe. I think that's a really important change in how we think about cats. And I think it makes a big difference to how we feel about cats as well.

Kristiina Wilson 8:00

I totally agree. So as a cat behaviorist, I get a lot of messages and emails and even stuff on the intake forum from clients saying that their cat is difficult. When people call their cat difficult, what do you think is usually going on beneath the surface? Either for the human or the cat.

Dr. Zazie Todd 8:21

Well, obviously the human is struggling, and that's why they're seeking help with their cat. But I think probably the cat also is struggling, and that's why they are being seen as difficult. They're not deliberately being difficult, they're just finding something isn't matching what they need. And so they are struggling themselves, and I think it helps to to recognise that that the cat isn't deliberately being awkward, they aren't being mean, they aren't being spiteful, they're just struggling themselves because something isn't right for them in their environment, or possibly multiple things aren't right for them in their environment. And when you make a change to that, you'll see that the cat will become hopefully sweet again.

Speaker 2 9:00

Yeah.

Dr. Zazie Todd 9:01

You know, sweet and loving. And so we really need to know what cats need. And when we know what cats need and we're providing it for them, then actually they're much less likely to have behaviour issues and they're more likely to have a good relationship with us. And I think that's what's important to know. So they're not really difficult, they're just struggling, they're finding things hard.

Kristiina Wilson 9:21

So you mentioned what cats need. What are the things that cats need?

Dr. Zazie Todd 9:27

Yeah, so they need to save space, which I've mentioned already. They need to know how to act in our world. So it really helps them to know how to go in their cat career. It helps them to know that they have spaces they can go and hide. They need some kind of play, they need to be able to engage in ordinary cat behaviours. So they need those high-up spaces, they need opportunities to play, they need opportunities to use their nose, and they need choices. They need choices and control in their lives. Um, and I think everyone kind of understands that cats like to be able to do their own thing. But even so, people often will go and they'll scoop their cat up or they'll just give their cat a hug, and it's not necessarily what the cat wants. So we need to pay attention to what the cat is actually telling us with their body language and their behaviour so that we can do what the cat wants. And then the other thing that's really important for good animal welfare these days that we didn't used to realise is that positive experiences are very important. So that could be a wide range of positive experiences. It could be nice little interactions with us throughout the day, because cats tend to prefer shorts but predictable interactions, right? Whereas we're more likely to want to go and just hug the cat for for a little bit and then let them go and ignore them. That's that's not what the cat wants. Um, so we have to pay attention to what they want and make sure that they are having these positive experiences, and that even can come down to the food that we're giving them, the way in which we're giving that food, or the kinds of food, making sure that even they're getting some kinds of food enrichment and not the same kibble all the time as well.

Kristiina Wilson 10:57

I just had a a discussion last night with just some friends of ours who were visiting and they were talking about how they were so frustrated that their cat will eat the same food for three days in a row and then wants something different, won't eat the last bit of the can. And I was trying to ask them, you know, would you want to eat the same meal for three days in a row, or would you maybe, you know, want to have something different? And I feel like that sort of kind of they a little light bulb went off, and they're like, oh, I guess, yeah, we probably wouldn't want to eat the same mashed potatoes and or whatever for three days in a row, and maybe we would get sick of it. And and so then they understood a little bit of our cat's probably not being difficult, maybe she just would like to try something new, and and hopefully that will help inform them, not look at their cat as being difficult, but it's just somebody who who would maybe like to try some different foods and just have a little bit of extra, you know, something different happening in her day.

Reward Based Training That Works

Dr. Zazie Todd 11:50

Yeah. And every cat is an individual, so it's gonna depend on the cat. And I have a cat who is very like that. Melina likes different food all the time. She doesn't want the same food two meals in a row. Yeah. So we have to change it all of the time. But I previously had a cat called Harley, he passed a couple of years ago, so we had them both at the same time, and she wanted different all the time. He wanted the same all the time. He was very, very suspicious of anything that he hadn't had before, and really he did just want the same kibble all the time. But he was, I think he was a bit unusual like that. Most most cats would prefer some variety in what they're what they're eating.

Kristiina Wilson 12:26

So your work really emphasizes reward-based training. Why is this approach so important for cats?

Dr. Zazie Todd 12:34

Well, it's important because it works as a really great way to teach cats things. And it's also important because if you use the opposite, like you hiss at your cat or you or you growl at your cat or you spray them with water or something like that. That is a really unpleasant experience for the cat, and it doesn't necessarily teach them what you want them to learn. It can make them stressed and it can damage their relationship with you as well. So it's really important not to use that kind of a approach to teaching your cat. And positive reinforcement, you can use treats. You can maybe use brushing depending on the cat. Some cats love to be brushed. You could maybe use play depending on the cat as well, or petting or something like that. And it works, it just works very well. So you you give little rewards basically to the cat as positive reinforcement for things that you want them to do again. And so, for example, with the cat carrier, you can reward your cat for going in the cat carrier. You can reward your cat for scratching the scratching posts that you want to keep them using, and that will make a difference as well. You can, if you want to, teach your cat tricks or just teach them, for example, to stay somewhere, like if they keep coming on the kitchen counters while you're cooking, you can teach them a stay on top of a cat tree or something like that. So most people don't realise that cats can be trained, and so they're really missing out, I think. And it's also so much fun to have with your cat. So it's it's providing cognitive enrichment for your cat, but it's fun for you as well. Even if it takes maybe it takes a bit of learning to be able to do it, so there might be times when it's a bit frustrating. And if your cat is not used to being trained, then you're gonna have to have really short training sessions, and you want to make it nice and easy for your cat to learn what to do because you don't want them to get frustrated from thinking this is too hard. And the other thing you might have to think about if you're using food is how to deliver it because some cats can be a bit grabby when it comes to getting food, they're not necessarily gonna come and take it nicely from your hand. Right. My cat Molina's an example of that. She'll be she'll be reaching out, and because she's excited, she's got her claws out. So it's much easier to have a little bowl or dish that you're putting to put a treat in, or if you're using churu or something like that, they can just lick lick from the tube. Yeah, most cats will will work, or little pieces of tuna or prawn or chicken or something like that. And you can teach them all kinds of things, and it's just really fun.

Kristiina Wilson 14:52

It is, I agree. I've clicker trained a lot of our cats and they love it. When they see the clicker come out and the treats, they're like, We're getting to work where they get so excited. I like to throw the treat. If I'm using hard treats, I like to throw them because then it also helps to reset to come back to start again or just to work on the next the next trick. Also, one of our cats, he is weirdly not food motivated, and so he will work to hear praise. All he wants to hear is good job Kevin. It's so cute. He just lives to hear good job Kevin, and then he looks at you with these big green eyes and is so excited and happy. So that's terrible. Yeah, it is, and and praise is something that I have found for certain cats is equally, if not more effective than food, play, you know, what whatever it is. You just have to find what that cat's highest value reward is and then and go from there. But I just love clicker training for cats. I think it's so useful and it's so fun. And there's a wonderful resource called catschool.co, which is amazing that has little modules for for training your cat. So I recommend using that if you're interested.

Dr. Zazie Todd 15:58

But I think the reward for each cat, like you mentioned, it's gonna be very individual and it's up to you to find out what is gonna work for your cat. And so I mentioned brushing because my cat Harley, the one I mentioned a moment ago, he used to absolutely love to be brushed. He would do anything to be brushed. So that was that was really nice. But my current cat, Melina, she doesn't really like it. Like if I used to be brushing Harley, she would come and see what was going on and she'd be like, okay, maybe a little tiny bit, but she doesn't really love it, so she's not gonna work for that. So you you might have to experiment a bit to find out what your cat is is going to work for. And there probably aren't many that will work for good job, Kevin. Yeah, but that's that's so cute. So you you just have to find for the cat, and it it's maybe gonna be a bit of experimentation when you first start training them. Absolutely. But that that's perfectly fine. You know, there's there's no timeline on this. You can just do it at your own pace and the cat's pace.

Stereotypes Consent And Cat Expectations

Kristiina Wilson 16:52

Yeah, and even when you're working to figure out what the reward is, it's such great bonding time and good enrichment time for you and your cat. So, and I think that's out of all of it, I think the highest reward is that your cat is getting one-on-one time with you. They know that it's coming, you're having time where you're not distracted by your phone or the TV or work or whatever, where you're actually sitting down and spending time with that cat. So I think that's super, super valuable. And I think often that's what our cats are most excited about when they see that we're gonna do training, is that the focus is gonna be 100% on them. So I wanted to ask you, because you have this background in human psych, how do human expectations kind of shape our relationship with cats?

Dr. Zazie Todd 17:37

I think they make a big difference, and it's unfortunate that many of us have quite negative stereotypes about cats, and they're quite popular, and it even seems to be acceptable for some or some people think it's acceptable to even say that they hate cats. And how can you hate cats? You know, I don't know. So I think that's really unfortunate because it means many people are actually missing out. They're guided by those stereotypes, and they're not really thinking about what their cat needs or what cats want, and they're missing out on a much better relationship that they could have with their cat. And of course, people like us and your clients and so on, they understand that you can have such a wonderful relationship. But those stereotypes, because one of the things that shapes how we think about cats is the social norm, what we think everyone else thinks too. And that's just unfortunate, and I think it's changing. We are managing to change that. People are learning that there is a lot more to learn about cats and they really are incredibly special creatures. But I think that's that's one of the things that unfortunately has affected people's relationship with their cats.

Kristiina Wilson 18:41

I agree, and I I've talked about this on other episodes, but I think a decent amount of the reason that some people dislike cats is because of the necessary consent piece that is required to interact with cats. And so I often think about what that says about the person who so emphatically dislikes cats.

Dr. Zazie Todd 19:06

I think we have, as a society, had this idea that humans are much, much better than non-human animals, to the extent that it was only in 2012 that we had, I think, that we had the Cambridge Declaration of Consciousness. Might have got the year wrong, not quite sure, but it wasn't very long ago, basically. And it is only in recent years that we are actually starting to understand just how similar cats are to us, basically, and dogs to us. And I think over time, like in the past, we've we've known that we can't make cats do things, and some people don't like that about them. But also, I think a lot of people, because they don't understand them, actually they're a bit nervous of them. And a lot of people have made that mistake where a cat has rolled over and shown their tummy in front of them and they have reached out thinking, okay, they want me to pet their tummy, and they've had a bad experience because it's not what the cat wants, and so the cat's gone for them. So a lot of people have actually had that bad experience, and I think that probably then affects how they feel about cats in the future. So they haven't gone into this relationship with good experiences or knowing what they need to know to have good experiences with the cat. And that's unfortunate.

Kristiina Wilson 20:13

That's fair. That actually leads me to my next question, which was why do you think so many people misunderstand feline communication? And we could start with that particular move that I think gets people so often, which is the cat rolling over it, you know, exposing its belly. That's its strongest position, right? It's it's able to gut all four paws and claws are able able to get you, the mouth is able to get you. That is not, it can be a very relaxed position, but it's also an incredibly strong defensive position. So how are we as people misunderstanding their communication and their body language so much?

Dr. Zazie Todd 20:52

I think often people aren't really paying much attention. They're not paying much attention to what the cat is doing, they're not even noticing a loss of the body language. And I think it probably is quite h hard to read. I think it does take time to learn to read it. But I think one of the easiest places to start is by looking at the tail and what the tail is doing. If you're interacting with the cat and you see the tail starting to twitch and maybe the twitch is getting a bit bigger, that is a sign that perhaps you should stop petting the cat because perhaps they've they've had enough of this by now. And if you don't stop, then they might start staring at your your hand and you might see their skin rippling and you might see their ears going back and the eyes looking like this cat is starting to get stressed, and then they probably will go for you. Um and I think another part of it though is that people aren't used to giving choices to cats and they're not thinking about consent. Is the cat consenting to this? And it's relatively new that people are thinking about this for non human animals, and it it comes back to this idea of humans supposedly being better. Well, we're just different and actually very similar to non human animals. So I think that's important too. And the more time people spend with Cats, paying attention to them without staring at them because the cat won't like that, then the more of their body language you will pick up on. And and and often some of the people who are best with cats are actually the ones who are ignoring them. And that always surprises people. But you just not not staring at the cat is a good thing from the cat's point of view. And of course, those of us who get used to cats, we get used to making a slow blink. We like it when we see a slow blink from a cat and we just automatically do it back. Or if we go into a room and there's a cat we haven't met before, we might just do one as a way of kind of introducing ourselves. And I think that's something that people are starting to learn about and pick up on because that's been it's had a bit of science done on it. It's it's had a bit more attention in the media. So that is something else that people are kind of learning about cats as well, I think.

Kristiina Wilson 22:46

It's true. It's funny, it's gotten to the point where my wife does that to me because we have so many cats and we're so used to cats that my wife will slow blink at me. And sometimes I have to be like, You're you remember I'm not a cat? I mean, I don't mind, but it is actually funny that we're slow blinking at everyone around the house so much, and even the ferals that we take care of outside that it just translates into us slow blinking at each other as well.

Dr. Zazie Todd 23:08

So I love that it's become such a habit.

Spotting Stress Play And Overstimulation

Kristiina Wilson 23:12

It's just we we really are just uh two humans living in a cat world. So it we have to adapt our behavior to their our way that we communicate to to their communication style rather than the other way around. So, what are some ways that guardians can become better observers of their cats' emotional states?

Dr. Zazie Todd 23:30

So paying attention to them without staring at them, I think that definitely not staring because cats tend to feel quite threatened by direct eye contact. So that's why the slow blink and the narrowed eyes kind of helps a bit there. But you have to pay attention to all of their body language. So I think the tail is probably a good place to start. Obviously, the ears are a good place to start because if you see the ears, like you want to see the ears kind of forward, kind of interested, rather than going back and showing signs of the cat being stressed. But I think it does take time. Another thing that can be quite hard is learning to sometimes to spot the difference between play and fighting, especially if you've got more than one cat in your home, and then one of the things to look for would be are the claws out? Because if the claws are out, then yes they are fighting. And if there's horrible catawalling, then yes they are fighting.

Kristiina Wilson 24:20

Yeah.

Dr. Zazie Todd 24:20

So the sound is gonna help. But the other thing is if they're playing, they're gonna be swapping roles from time to time. Like it's not always gonna be the same cat on top, the other cat will become on top for a bit, or it won't always be the same cat chasing another cat that you know is gonna swap around. And also you will actually see kind of looser body language, less tight body language, and they do actually have a nice play face, which is an open mouth, open-mouthed look that when they're playing as well, which is something else to look for. And really, I think it's just a good idea to pay attention to all of these things. And I love the work of Lily Chin. I think she does such a good job of showing what cats look like. So I would also look at she ha she has her wonderful book, Kitty Language, but she also has free stuff on her website and look at that, and that can help to kind of help people, I think, to learn body language and what to be looking for.

Kristiina Wilson 25:14

Yeah, I agree. I think also important about play is that they take breaks. They often take breaks in the playabouts where they will kind of hold a position but just pause and just just relax and just kind of hang out. And sometimes they'll they'll just stop. One cat will wander off because they've had enough, but then they'll often resume the bout and then pause again and then resume, and like you said, they'll swap roles. But that pause is very important, I think, to also knowing knowing that it's play. I see that all the time because we have like a big dude gang in the house and they all kind of wrestle and play and chase each other around, but it's always silent. There's always pauses, you know, there's the play face, there's the no-claws, all of that stuff. But it's it's just interesting to observe. I'm always watching them because they're also big ding-dongs, and it's funny to watch them, watch them play and just be silly. And then the other thing I wanted to say about all of this is when I have clients who especially are saying, My cat is aggressive towards me, you know, I can't pet my cat as much as I want. Whenever I pat my cat, I can pat them for a few minutes and then they they get aggressive with me or get bitey or get annoyed. Is that I love using motion sensor cameras or recording your cat on your phone so that you are able to then later look at that footage, slow it down, and see exactly what the signs are that your cat was giving you because 100% your cat is giving you a I've had enough, I'm annoyed with this sign before they go to a swat or a bite. But it's generally gonna be so subtle. We had a cat, our cat Mimi, who would just give us like a side eye, like kind of like a dirty look, you know, and it was very subtle, but we learned it. And she would do that a few times before she would smack us, and not with claws, but it was just like a hey, we've I've had it. And so I think almost every cat gives you a signal and then they get irritated because they've given you a clear signal in their brain and you have not listened to it, and so now you need to be disciplined, right? They've they've had it with you. You didn't listen and you're you're gonna get slapped. So I really think that if it is safe for you being able to make a visual recording of what happens so that you can slow it down and see, oh, my cat actually does this. I'll watch for the tail twitch, I'll watch for the ears going back, I'll watch for the eye motion, I'll watch for whatever it is that he or she is doing is so helpful in terms of being able to read your cat's communication better.

Dr. Zazie Todd 27:37

Yes, absolutely. Yeah, looking at it on video is really helpful. And I think the other thing to bear in mind is just to think cats probably don't like to be petted for as long as you think. So just try stopping sooner than you think and see how that goes. Stop a bit earlier, and then you can I think I think if you're watching your cat, then you can also see what the body language is like at the point when you stop. And of course, if your cat wants more, they're gonna come up to you and they're gonna rub their head on you, or they're gonna make it really obvious that actually they want more. So you can just stop and see what happens. And if they walk off, then I'm sorry, but your cat is done with the baiting session. Yeah, and they have that choice.

What Cat Research Still Misses

Kristiina Wilson 28:13

Yep, it's very true. And you're right, if they want more, that same cat, Mimi, would literally grab my hand and put it back on her, be like, no, I'm not done. Thank you. You know, so they will absolutely be very clear with you about you are still serving me, thank you. We're still doing this. Yes. Um, so we were talking about how now finally there's there's more feline research going on. I know when I was getting my graduate degree, I I couldn't even work with cats because that just wasn't a thing. So it's very nice to see that feline research is is really becoming more popular and and and um you know just considered more of a normal thing. What areas of feline re behavior research do you think are still lacking?

Dr. Zazie Todd 28:57

I mean, a lot of it is is lacking. I would love to see more about how we can improve our bond with cats because I think that's so important for people. I think I also would love to see more research that's kind of citizen science, so it's looking at cats in their own homes and how they're behaving in their own homes. And that's important because some cats couldn't be taken to a university lab. Um, so if you're I mean, the research that happens in un university labs it is really important. Yeah. I'm not knocking it, there's some really great research done there, but only some cats are suitable to go and take part in that, and especially the more fearful kind of cat is gonna have to stay home. So research that's happening in the home, I think that especially like we have a lot of surveys, but also it would be nice to have more that's just getting bits of video, and it could still be citizen science kind of projects where you're asking people to video their cat. But I think that would be really, really helpful. And I think we are getting a lot better understanding of a lot of cat behaviours, but it's amazing how much we still don't know. So, some of those things to do with how people interact with kittens. There's some great research going on about what people do with with kittens and how that helps older behavior. But because this is such an important time in the life of a cat, I would love to see more research on on kittens too, and how good socialization practices can help kittens grow up to be more friendly, confident adult cats.

Kristiina Wilson 30:23

I 100% agree. Yeah. Before I was a behaviorist, I was a fashion photographer for 20 years, and I also just did cat rescue work, right? And so I would have moms from the shelter, like mom cats, and raise the kittens in my photo studio, and those kittens would be so socialized because they would have so many people in and out all the time of the studio, just like different people every day, like 10 people, 15 people, and the kittens just got so used to people. People came to me because they wanted these rescue kittens because they were so used to everything possible, like loud sounds, sounds of cars, vacuums, people, they were highly social and just incredibly they were like almost like like dog cats because they were so socialized from the moment of birth. Versus now that we're out here in Connecticut when I've done the same work, and you know, we're exposing them, I'm exposing them to vacuum cleaners and all of these same things, but we don't have that level of people. We're older, we're kind of hermits in the house. It's very different. And I have noticed a striking difference in the personalities of the cats and the level of socialization and fearfulness to new sounds and sensations in the litters of cats. And this is just anecdotal, but it's it just emphasizes to me how important it is at those very young ages that they just get exposed to everything, like everything, which we already know, but yeah, I and I think that's really interesting and it is anecdotal, but at the same time, this is a lot of kittens that you're talking about.

Making Behavior Help Easier To Find

Dr. Zazie Todd 31:55

Yes. You know, and it's really great that you do that work as well. So thank you for having done this for all this time. I think it shows just how important socialization is. And there are some researchers doing really interesting work with kittens. I think Dr. Courtney Graham here in Canada and Dr. Kristin Vitali come to mind. Yeah. But you know, I would love to see more of this research because the thing is we know the basics, but that's it. We know the basics. There's probably a whole lot more that we could learn that would help us to refine things, to give better advice to people. And some of it also is understanding what ordinary people happen to do, or what cat breeders and cat rescuers and foster carers happen to do, so that we can then see what of those things makes a difference and what can we do to better teach people what they need to do as well to make a difference to the kittens. And yeah, I think it's really great that people are starting to do this this research with cats. You know, more of it, more of it would just be wonderful.

Kristiina Wilson 32:49

I agree. I absolutely agree. So, from your perspective as a writer, what do you wish that more behavior professionals emphasized when helping cat garden?

Dr. Zazie Todd 33:01

I think cat behavior professionals do a wonderful job. Actually, the ones that I interact with, they all do a brilliant job. So I I don't feel like I necessarily have anything in particular to tell them, but I think it's just helping people to understand cats better, and that's gonna depend on the particular issue that you're looking at. But I think people do do a wonderful job once once someone knows to go to someone. So I think the thing really is that more people need to know that cat behaviourists exist.

Kristiina Wilson 33:29

Yes.

Dr. Zazie Todd 33:29

So it it's getting that message out there to so it's not so much to to tell the clients who are already coming to you, but to make sure that other people know that it's an option. And I think some of that is having a good relationship with local vets because vets might refer people to you. But I think some of it is also just getting this idea out into local neighborhood groups and so on, that there is someone local if you're doing in person, or just to put people to know that such people exist. I think that that's probably the biggest problem because people get to having an issue with their cat and and then they don't know that they can turn to people for help with this.

Kristiina Wilson 34:04

I think I think that's true. And I think I think the issue that that we had as as researchers 10-15 years ago with doing cat behavior research where people are like, that's silly, that's not real, still happens a lot of the time with people and going to cat behaviorists. I had a client just this morning who was like, I can't believe I'm coming to a cat psychiatrist. This is so silly. And I was like, Well, that's a really good shirt. Like, either way, you know, let's let's get down to your problem and solve your problem and however you want to look at it is fine. But I do I do hear not infrequently people being like, This is so silly. I can't believe I'm doing this, you know, or I can't believe this is a real thing. And I think that's not it's not unusual to hear that. So I think that that's still a hurdle, is that people feel that they're doing something silly in terms of it's it's not silly at all to care about your cat.

Dr. Zazie Todd 34:54

Yeah. How you can help your cat. But yeah, I think that's quite a widespread view that people just don't realize. And also the unfortunate other aspect of that is that they don't know that they can make such a big difference. So they think they're stuck with this cat's behavior issues. Yes. And if if they only knew that they could actually make a big difference, that would really help. So yeah, people need to know that that help is available.

Kristiina Wilson 35:18

Yeah, I think it's something also about just the language around it. Like again, like cat versus dog, like you take your dog to a trainer, and that sounds like I don't know, it sounds less crazy than I'm going to a cat therapist or a cat behavior person. That sounds, I think to most people, that sounds a little wacky. There's some kind of a language barrier to it, I think, as well. That I just started thinking about all of this this morning when I had this client reaction that was so strong. But then by the end, she was so happy and she was like, Oh, this is so great. I'm so excited to try all this stuff and do all of these things. And but it was just a very interesting first impression where she was like, This seems really crazy.

Dr. Zazie Todd 35:59

And I think people often go to that extreme of cat psychiatrist and they don't have a cat trainer along the way. Whereas with with dogs, of course, it starts with puppy class. And there's been a lot of work over the last few decades to teach people that they should be going to a puppy class, and that means they're already thinking, you know, they can go to someone who is going to help them with their dog, and they've probably already had experience of going to puppy class and finding that that helps. Whereas it's still quite unusual to find someone who is even offering a kitten kindergarten class or someone who even thinks, you know, to find such a thing and go to it. And probably if that existed more, then it would be easier for people to make that leap to thinking, okay, I can go to a cat behaviorist or cat therapist or whatever they want to call it, because it would already be something that they had this idea that you well, you can go and learn about kittens, you can help your kitten, it would help them make that that step. So, you know, and if someone wants a dog trainer, they've probably already got that point of call because they went to a puppy class. Yeah. Whereas they're starting completely from scratch if they want to find someone to help them with their cat.

Kristiina Wilson 37:06

That's a good point. And then but talking about the the puppies and puppy class and and dog training leads me to thinking about all the dominance behavior that's all often in dog training and dog classes, and thinking about why as I mean, I know why we have this thought about dogs because of that stupid paper from the 70s that was written about wolves and like then retracted, but is still just out there and and you know, on the web and in everyone's general thinking, and then trickle down into terrible dominance trainers. But anyway, how do our beliefs kind of about dominance and training impact cats and other companion animals?

Welfare Beyond Cortisol And Stress

Dr. Zazie Todd 37:49

It's funny because it like the idea came about from dogs and it's not true at all, but somehow it became popular, and then I've seen it applied to cats. I've seen people apply it to rabbits, even, which is really strange. Like, why do you think your rabbit could be dominant over you? But even for even for a dog, because we provide everything that the dog needs. How is it possible that the dog could be dominant and in charge? It's just not. Yeah. And I think it it really is an idea that's got in the way because it has distracted people from what matters in terms of training with positive reinforcement, using for for dogs mainly we use food rewards to teach them to do behaviours, and it gets in the way of thinking about providing for what your dog needs, and it kind of just inserts this whole level of psychological stuff that's not happening in the way of thinking about them. And I think with cats, so the stereotypes are that you can't train or herd a cat, so that aspect of it that doesn't come into it as much to some extent for the dominance, but I think people think that they can't influence their cat's behaviour, so then they struggle when their cat is doing something that they don't like because they don't know what to do. And the other thing, I think one of the worst things about ideas of dominance in dog training is that it leads people to using punishment. Yeah. And there is a lot of research on training methods in dogs that shows risks of using punishment, increased fear, anxiety, aggression, pessimism, a worse relationship with the owner, increased stress, and of course increased stress can cause physical health issues. For cats, we don't have the same amount of research, but the research that we do have does show issues with using punishment-based approaches with cats. And I think it's worth mentioning that for human children, we actually do have tons and tons and tons of research on issues with using spanking children being bad for them and having potentially long-term effects which affect them even in adulthood as well. So I think that's been one of the worst aspects of a dominance approach to thinking about dog or cat behaviour. And it it really causes people to do harm accidentally because they think that's what they need to do to show that they are in charge. And it's not about showing that you are in charge of your cat, it's about providing the right environment that your cat needs so that your cat can be their best self, as it were, and have their happiest, happiest life. And this is one of the reasons I like talking about happiness because I think everybody wants their pet to be happy, and everyone is willing to do things that would make their pet even happier than they already are. So I think it's a nice way to start talking about what dogs and cats need, thinking in terms of happy, because we all we all want a happy pet and we love watching, you know, what's nicer than looking at your cat or having your cat sitting on your lap or next to you and purring away. It's just just lovely. So I think everybody wants those happy moments with their cat, and and it's a much, much better way of thinking about it than trying to say you have to be dominant over your cat, which is just ridiculous.

Kristiina Wilson 40:55

I of course absolutely agree. So obviously. So kind of going off of that, I think when we read research, a lot of research about cats, and just a lot of research in generally, we kind of like read a lot about measuring stress indicators rather than measuring positive welfare, right? Do you think we over-rely on stuff like cortisol, measurements of cortisol, just measuring stress indicators rather than looking at positive welfare?

What A Good Indoor Life Looks Like

Dr. Zazie Todd 41:24

Well, I mean, the idea of thinking of positive welfare is relatively new because if you go back to the five freedoms which have shaped how we think about animal welfare since the 60s, they're really mainly about preventing harm and preventing cruelty and preventing stress. And it's really with the move to what we call the five domains model that we started thinking that it's not just about preventing harm, it is also about positive welfare. And I think obviously for ordinary people, they can't go and measure their cats, courses are levels, and they certainly couldn't probably interpret them even if they did. But so for ordinary people, I think you can look at how your cat is behaving. Are they engaging in different activities in your home? Are they playing? Are they playing with you, for example, when you get the one toy out? Are they using different places in their home? Are they sleeping all day or appear to be sleeping all day? That would be perhaps a sign that they're not as happy as perhaps they could be. Maybe. Or of course, whenever there's anything behavioural, we also have to say, maybe see your vet too, because we're not vets, we we can't interpret things from that point of view. Um, we now have an increasing knowledge that veterinary issues can affect behaviour as well, which is another positive benefit, I think, for for cats these days. That's that's a really important thing too. So I think in terms of thinking of ordinary people, it's thinking about what can you provide that your cat will want to engage with, that your cat will want to be able to do. And I think that's a really good way of thinking about, you know, just looking after your cat, doing a better job of looking after your cat and making them happier.

Kristiina Wilson 42:57

Yeah, that's fair. So what do you think a a kind of a happy or a good life for a cat actually looks like?

Dr. Zazie Todd 43:04

So I I'm gonna assume that we're talking about indoor cats because that's a big, big issue. But yeah, let's talk about that too if you want. Well, I think for an indoor cat, they they can very easily get bored in their environment. So a happy life means that we are providing hiding spaces for them, we're providing high-up perches for them, we are making time for them and to spend time with them in play and to pet them, but we're giving them choices on that. So we're letting them choose what to do. I think it involves training your cat to go to the vet to go in their carrier so that you can take them to the vet because that's essential. And I think cats used to fall behind. They didn't used to be taken to the vet as much as dogs, but actually I read recently cats are going to the vet more than they used to, and I think that's a really positive thing because that's important for their health, basically. That's really important. And I think I think it's a really good thing that we get lots of different food puzzle toys. I think one thing I would add though is something to do with scent. So like people are used to catnip, but some cats also will respond to silvervine or valerian or Tatarian honeysuckle or something like that, even if they don't respond to catnip. So I think that's worth trying. But also one idea that I really like, and I got this from Dr. Sarah Ellis, is the idea of a sensory box. So going outside and picking up safe items for your cat and putting them in a box and bringing it in and giving your cat the choice of interacting with those items. So it might be bits of plant, for example, or a feather that you found or whatever you happen to find outside. But you have to give your cat a choice. So don't pick them up and put them in the box because they were they aren't necessarily going to like that. I mean a bold, confident cat might be happy with it, but some cats would be like, oh my gosh, you know, this is too much all at once. But give them that choice and bring some of that outside in for them, I think. And that's that's very good for them too.

Kristiina Wilson 44:58

Yeah, I I love doing that in all seasons, but especially in the winter, especially this winter when we had so much snow, I was constantly taking a big cooking sheet and filling it with snow and bringing it in and putting it down and watching the cats all be like, and smacking at it, and some of them walking through it, and some of them were not interested at all. But that was a fun thing to watch them play with that. The the littlest one, the kitten with cerebellar hypoplasia, she would make little balls and kick them around and then be fascinated by watching them melt and be like, where did my toy go? And that was a super fun thing to do. But also in the spring and the summer, when things are blooming, we'll make I'll make one out of, you know, putting crinkly paper and some cat in it, but also like a stick and some safe, you know, like rose petals and and other things from outside so that they can sniff and kind of poke around. And it's always there's a line for the the enrichment box. They really get excited about going in there. So I think that's always a fun thing to do. And it's kind of fun to go out and have a little scavenger hunt for safe items for your cat from outside. So I always think that's yeah, it's really nice.

Dr. Zazie Todd 46:01

Yeah, and I I grow some catnip in my garden, and so my cat responds to toys with cat catnip in. She loves them, she really loves them, and so I got this catnip plant for outside, and this just confirms that every cat is an individual. I brought some of it in for her, and she came and she sniffed it, and she was like, I don't like that, and she just walked off. And I was so disappointed. No, but it's a case of finding what your cat actually likes, not what you hope your cat will like.

Kristiina Wilson 46:30

That's that is fair. We have a few cats who don't respond to catnip. I also grow it outside, and it, you know, it's it's a wheat, so it just spreads like crazy. So if you plant a few seeds, you have like 800 acres of catnip now. But one of our cats' name is butters, and he came, he just showed up at our house as a feral, and um now he's the nicest, most beautiful, fluffy orange guy. He's obsessed with it. And if he sees me out near the plant, uh he has those speech buttons, so he'll just hit catnip for me to to bring some in. And then he will eat all of it. He'll eat like a handful, like a huge handful, like the stalks and everything. He's crazy. He's like, I think a little bit of an addict with a catnip where no one else can get any because he's going so crazy with the catnip. But it is it is very cute to see that, and some of them prefer the silver vine, and you know, it's nice to be able to grow things for your cat and then have them enjoy them. Anyway, sorry, went off on a tangent. This is why I have to edit because no one wants to hear about me growing catnip for the cats.

Personality Scratching Preferences And Fit

Dr. Zazie Todd 47:28

No, that was a nice story. I liked hearing it.

Kristiina Wilson 47:31

So, like we were talking about, some cats really like a lot of simulation, and other ones like to be quiet. Do we know much from the literature about personality differences in cats? Or is this all just kind of anecdotal?

Dr. Zazie Todd 47:46

No, there is some research on cat personality, and so we do have differences in personality, and that's I think that's really interesting to think about every cat as an individual. So some cats are more bold than others, for example, and we know this if we look at the cats. But so in people that we tend to talk about personality as having five factors, and the interesting thing is that it seems maybe those same five factors kind of apply to cats too. But it's not I think it's not confirmed. So it is something we could have more research on. But it is worth thinking about, and I think especially if you're going to adopt a cat, it's worth thinking about the personality of the cat and seeing what the shelter or rescue can tell you about the personality of the cat in terms of thinking about are they going to fit into your home or not? Because if you have a lot of people coming over to your home all the time, you probably don't want to bring home a shy, fearful kind of cat. You're probably better off bringing a more bold kind of cat who you know is going to be chill with lots and lots of visitors. So it's just worth worth thinking about. Yeah, so I think that's that's quite interesting.

Kristiina Wilson 48:49

Yeah. Is there a finding from animal welfare science that you think most cat professionals, whether it's behaviorists or vets, um, sort of still underestimate or misunderstand or just don't know about?

Evolving Ethics For Modern Cat Care

Dr. Zazie Todd 49:02

No, but I do think it's getting increasingly hard to keep up with things because there is so much coming out all the time now, which is a really good thing. Yeah. So I think it's become harder for people to keep up. But I think the basics of, you know, the five pillars of what what cats need in a healthy feline environment, those basics are the same. And I think cat behaviourists are all, you know, they're very good at explaining all of this to people, but I think the new stuff that's coming in, it doesn't necessarily change what we do. It just tells us a lot more about just how clever cats are. But I suppose one example, like there's been a lot more research on scratching. So we've we've known for a very long time that it's important to provide scratching posts, and a lot of people get upset if their cat is scratching something that they don't want them to scratch. But we do know now a lot more about the fact that that cats do have individual preferences, so you do have to find what your cat likes. So overall, a cat is gonna like a tall post that's tall enough for them to get a good stretch. Kittens seem to prefer something horizontal. Some cats just will prefer a horizontal post anyway. And I think this the but the other thing is the the training, the fact that training helps. And I think as cat behaviourists, we're aware of this, but but I think the research gives us more to talk about and more in terms of explaining that cats do have differences, that we might have to think about the positioning of the scratching post and the type of scratching post, and that if you have multiple cats, they they need their own posts, but they might also have different preferences. Like some cats will actually prefer a wooden post, even though most cats prefer a sisal rope post. Yes. And you know, if someone's just gone out and bought a little, most of most of the ones in the store are too short as well. So if someone's just gone out to the pet store and they bought the first sisal rope post that they've seen, they're probably quite pleased with themselves because they think they've gone and got something that's right for the cat, but the cat may not like it, especially if it's short, they'll want something tall. So I think the research helps fill in a lot more detail there about the kinds of things that that we need to be offering to our cats.

Kristiina Wilson 51:08

So sort of along that line, as we gain more of an understanding of them, do you think our ethical responsibilities towards our cats should evolve as well?

Dr. Zazie Todd 51:18

Well, I think we've always had an ethical responsibility to treat them well, but I do see societal changes in terms of how people think about them. I guess declawing is one of the obvious ones where there have been big changes. That is now illegal where I am. It's amazing. It's illegal where I grew up in the UK and has been for a long time. But there are still quite a few places where there are still campaigns going on to make it illegal. So I mean, I think for a long time that just used to be seen as a normal thing to do before people realize that A, cats need to be able to scratch, it's part of looking after their claws, and B, declawing, it's kind of amputating the the knuckles and it's painful for cats. It's not good for their welfare to do it. So I think that's one example where there has been quite a big shift in terms of what people think is ethical in terms of how to care for cats. I think the indoor-outdoor question is another one where there have been changes, but I have to say also there are very big cultural differences there. Yeah. Because I grew up in the UK where it's normal for cats to go outside so long as they're not living on a busy road. And I think for a lot of people in Europe, they think it is cruel to keep cats indoors only because they think they should be able to go in the outdoors environment. Whereas here in North America, of course, most people think it's cruel to let cats outdoors. Not everyone thinks that, but I am happy for people to make the decision that they think is best for them and their cats. So my cat is indoors only because where I live we have a lot of coyotes and cougar and so on, and I just it would not be safe for her to go outside. So she has to be indoors only. My younger self would think that was a bad decision and would not ever believe that I would become someone who would have an indoors only cat. So I think sometimes these discussions need to be nuanced as well, but we are seeing big changes, and I think overall those changes are better, better for cats and better for cat welfare.

Kristiina Wilson 53:14

I think I think that makes a lot of sense and I I get it about where you are.

Dr. Zazie Todd 53:19

Is there anything else that you wanted to talk about or touch on? No, I think the main thing is just that I love to see people doing things to try and make their cats happy, and I'm really happy that the world is moving more in that direction and that people with cats are aware that there is a lot more that they can learn and a lot more that they can do for their cat, and that is just better for the cat's welfare, but it's also better for the cat's relationship with the person. So it makes the cat happier, but it in doing so it also makes the person happier as well. And I think that's a really good thing.

Kristiina Wilson 53:50

I agree. I think the more that we learn, the happier that we can be with our cats. And that's it.

Dr. Zazie Todd 53:55

Yeah, absolutely.

Kristiina Wilson 53:56

Yay. Well, thank you so much for taking the time out of what I know is your very busy schedule to talk with me. I really appreciate it. This is such a fun discussion.

Dr. Zazie Todd 54:04

Thank you. It's been a pleasure to chat with you.

Kristiina Wilson 54:07

Thanks so much for listening to the show. If you're looking for one-on-one support with behavior issues like litter box problems, aggression, anxiety, or multicat dynamics, you can find me through my behavior consulting business, Catitude Adjustment, at catitude-adjustment.com. If you like the episode, please consider leaving a rating or review. It really helps us grow. For more episodes, show notes, and resources, head to Hissandel Podcast.com. Huge thanks to Cat Beats for the music, and I'll see you next time.