Why Pet Loss Hurts: Grief, Love, and the Cats We Carry with s.e. smith

Grief gets policed in ways we rarely admit, and pet loss is where that policing shows up fast. When someone says “it was just a cat,” they’re not only dismissing your relationship, they’re dodging the reality that love creates responsibility and loss. I’m joined by journalist and author s.e. smith to talk about their upcoming book, *All My Dead Cats and Other Losses*, and how pet bereavement can open the door to deeper, more honest conversations about mourning in the United States.

We dig into why our culture struggles to validate grief, why people often show up briefly and then disappear, and how capitalism pressures us to return to work and “be normal” before we’ve processed anything. s.e. breaks down the bias in how people respond to dog loss versus cat loss, how pets can represent entire eras of our lives, and what it means to treat grief as a collective project instead of a private burden you’re supposed to handle alone.

We also get practical about end-of-life care: euthanasia guilt, the myth of the peaceful “natural death,” quality-of-life tracking, and the value of planning ahead so you’re not forced into a crisis goodbye. Then we talk rituals that actually help, from memorials and viewings to altars and carrying small mementos, plus how social media can both normalize grief and complicate it with parasocial intensity.

If you’ve ever felt ashamed of how deeply you grieve an animal companion or unsure how to support someone who is hurting, this conversation is for you. Subscribe, share this with a friend who loves their pets, and leave a rating or review so more people can find the show.

Transcript

The Importance of Community in Grief

Kristiina Wilson 0:00

Hi and welcome back to Hiss and Tell. Today I am joined by journalist and author S. E. Smith for a conversation about pet loss and the way that we think about grief. We are going to discuss their upcoming book, All My Dead Cats and Other Losses, and what it means to carry the love that we have for our animals throughout our lives. As always, thank you for listening and being part of this community. If you've been enjoying the podcast and would like to help support it, you can do so through buymeacoffee.com slash hiss and tell or just our website, which is hissantelpodcast.com. If you need help with your cat's behavior, you can find me at catitudeadjustment.com. Okay, let's go. Welcome to another episode of Hiss and Tell. I'm your host, Christina Wilson, and with me today is Essie Smith, journalist and author of All My Dead Cats and Other Losses, coming from Harper One on July 28th. They also write the Tell Your Cat I Said newsletter for pet end of life advice. So welcome, Essie Smith.

s.e. smith 0:58

Thank you so much for having me. Always love talking cats.

Kristiina Wilson 1:01

Like what I mean, that is what I do all day, every day. And it's nice to do it with some new people. So welcome. Can you tell us a little bit about your upcoming book, All My Dead Cats?

s.e. smith 1:12

Sure. So the book is looking at the way that the United States and the world in general, but I'm really focusing it on US, really struggles with grief and loss and mourning and how we talk about these things, how they interact with larger kind of sociocultural

Exploring Grief and Loss Through Pet Stories

s.e. smith 1:28

themes and how we can do these things better. I kind of ask people, what does good grief look like? We talk about the good death movement and how we want end of life to be, but also we need good grief in company with good deaths. And what I chose to do with this book is to use pet loss as kind of a gateway drug. So each chapter starts with a personal story about one of my cats and then uses that to branch into larger themes about grief because I think that pet loss is more accessible for a lot of people than just plunging into human loss and cultural criticism and anti-capitalist values and all the other things you will find in this book.

Kristiina Wilson 2:08

Absolutely. Um wanted to ask you about the title because it's funny, but it's also so like upsetting at the same time. How did you strike that balance and how kind of intentional was that balance of the title?

s.e. smith 2:22

It was very intentional. I have extremely dark humor. So from I think one of the earliest stages of working on the manuscript, I was like, all my dead cats. Yes. And, you know, it's funny. Often a title is a placeholder. It's very common for publishers to change titles, but they were huge fans of it from the start. And I think also it gives you a little insight into the kind of book that it's going to be. It's not inspirational schlock. It's not kind of very surface-level self-help. It is a little more cutting and a little more sharp. And I feel like I wanted to get the deaf people who would get it to get it, and also hopefully to get the people who need to get it to be intrigued enough by the title to pick it up. Although I'm sure some people are gonna be like, nope, absolutely not. This is not for me.

Kristiina Wilson 3:06

Well, and I g I guess that's fair. It's kind of helping people self-select into your book that you know can find it and find things that are helpful in there. So in the book, you write that pet loss is often treated as a lesser grief. And I think all of us who have lost pets understand that. Why do you think our culture specifically struggles so much to sort of validate the loss of pets and mourning our animal friends?

s.e. smith 3:33

So a few things are at work there. One is that culturally we really devalue non-human animals. So we don't think of animals as having sentience, as having feelings, of having emotional bonds. We eat animals, we use animals as work animals. Obviously, without consent, a police horse doesn't wake up one day and go, I want to be a police horse.

Speaker 2 3:54

Right.

s.e. smith 3:55

So, and in many states, still animals are literally considered property. So in animal abuse cases, it's not abuse against the animal, it's like a property crime, which is sickening, right? So culturally, if you think that animals are not valuable or not valuable in the same way that humans are, obviously when they die, people don't think about them in the same way as humans. Another thing about pets is that they're very intimate partners inside the home.

Cultural Attitudes Towards Pet Loss

s.e. smith 4:20

And many people may never meet your pets at all, or they see them very briefly, you know, oh, I've gone on a walk with you and your dogs a couple times, or I visited your house and your cat has been there, but your pets may not be always as integrated into your larger social life. So people both don't meet your pets and don't see the intimacy and the depth of the connection that you have with them. There's kind of that internal inside the home, which is a larger theme I get into in this book because I don't think that grief is a private inside-the-home matter.

Speaker 1 4:50

Right.

s.e. smith 4:51

And also more broadly, people are really uncomfortable with talking about any kind of death and grief and are super eager to avoid it at all costs. And pets in a way are almost low-hanging fruit because, like, well, it's just an animal. I don't want to think about the implications of what that might mean. So if I minimize the importance of that death, it I don't have to think about it anymore.

Kristiina Wilson 5:12

Yeah, I that that makes a lot of sense. And I I wonder if you have noticed any differences between how people respond to someone who has lost a pet dog versus a pet cat.

s.e. smith 5:25

Some interesting things there. I think often people are more empathetic when it comes to losing dogs. And there are probably a number of cultural factors behind that that would be really interesting to explore. One of which is this theme of dogs are man's best friend, dogs are loyal, dogs, again, are more likely to be outside the home, and so you're more likely to have met your friend's dogs and interacted with them. I think also cats are very feminized. There's this idea of the crazy cat lady, very internal to the home, this myth that cats are more standoffish, that they don't really form emotional connections with you. And so that definitely affects how people interact with the deaths of cats. And I think there's a really interesting quote from Cleveland Amory that I can't remember exactly what he says, so I'm paraphrasing a bit. Cleveland Amory was an animal rights activist kind of in the mid-century who founded, among other things, the fund for animals and Black Beauty Ranch. And one of the things he commented was that we have all of these ways to tell dogs to like get out of your yard. And with cats, we have a universal term, which mid-century was scat, right? Scat cat. And he said, I just find it very interesting that with dogs, we've decided there are lots of ways to ask them to do the same thing. But with cats, it's like we have the one thing that we do, which very much reflects, I think, how you value animals and the way that you communicate with them. And obviously, if you think of dogs as understanding more things or as more kind of situationally dependent conversations, you are consciously or unconsciously valuing and weighting dogs more than cats, which isn't to say I love dogs, I love dog people, they are fantastic. This is not oppression Olympics. Yeah. It is not we should care less about dogs. That's we should care more

Understanding Grief Responses

s.e. smith 7:06

about cats.

Kristiina Wilson 7:06

Yeah, I I absolutely totally agree with that. And I I do think it's an interesting point about language around animals and especially what people perceive the cognition of each species to be. Because people do, as you say, seem to understand that dogs understand a bunch of different words in in various human languages. But you're right about people only recently, I think it was maybe a month ago, a study came out about cats and how much of human language they actually can understand. And it's it's a lot that cats can even recognize in a multi-cat home. Um and the study was talking about how cats can even recognize each other's names in the home. And I see examples of that on a daily basis in our house, that cats who are best friends will wait until they hear their friends' name called so they can jump out and sneak attack them for play wrestle about, and which is so cute and funny. But I think if people are not even understanding that cat cognition can go as far as to understand a decent amount of language, that does lead to them being viewed sort of as lesser than dogs. What do you hope that people who are actively grieving could take away from reading your book?

s.e. smith 8:13

So for people who are actively grieving, and again, I feel like I need to stress this because some people see the title and go, oh, this is a book about pet loss. It's really not. It is a book about all kinds of grief, especially human grief. But the big thing is obviously you're not alone. And also that there are a lot of different kinds of grief responses, and they are all valid. It's not, there's no right or wrong way to grieve. There's no timeline for grief. And if you have people around you who are saying you're grieving wrong, or you should do this differently, or why are you still sad about this, those people are bad and should feel bad. You are the person at the center of the grief. There are lots of ways to process that loss. To think about grief as more of a long-term project that you move through and with rather than something that you need to immediately fix and get over. It's something that you carry for the rest of your life. I really carry my ghosts, I carry my dead people with me. And I think people need to understand that. And to find commonality. I think there are some kinds of grief that people are very ashamed of or no one talks about, so they don't realize how common they are. Certainly uh anticipatory grief is a big one.

Speaker 2 9:13

Yes.

s.e. smith 9:14

And for people who are not grieving, I really hope the biggest thing you take away is the need to have grace and kindness and compassion for the people who are around you who are grieving. To recognize even if you don't approve of or

The Role of Pets in Our Lives

s.e. smith 9:28

you think the way that they're grieving is weird, that's a you problem. That's not something you need to share with the class. To understand that if you have, if you're struggling with the way that someone is grieving, you need to talk to someone who's not the grieving person about that.

Kristiina Wilson 9:43

Right.

s.e. smith 9:43

To really recognize that grief is ongoing, it's a collective project, it's not something that's going to end tomorrow or next week. And you need to keep being that supportive person. And also, really critically to recognize grief is not something that you can fix, which frightens a lot of people. And you do need to be willing to just sit with it. And sometimes you just need to say, Hey, this sucks. Dying sucks. All of this is terrible. I'm so sorry that this happened to you. And to just pause and be with that for a moment and not jump to like, okay, let's do this and this and this, or like you should read this thing or do this thing, is to just acknowledge it really sucks to see someone that you care about hurting and struggling and to know that there is nothing you can do about it, but actually being there for that person and really acknowledging that grief is doing something for them. And that thing is really important.

Kristiina Wilson 10:37

It's true. And I I think especially in this kind of fix-it capitalist culture that we live in, it's it's difficult to allow time for people to just sit with it. E even and even to allow yourself when you're the one going through it, to allow yourself to just sit with it, I think can be difficult. So I one of my favorite things about the book was how you talked about how pets represent entire eras of your life of our lives and how you kind of set it up for each chapter, you know, to be talking about a different pet. Can you talk a little bit more about that idea, like how pets are representing whole eras of our lives?

s.e. smith 11:14

Yeah, sure. So I think the thing that most people can relate to is obviously a very high percentage of US households have cats and dogs. So it is highly probable that you had a childhood pet. And that might be, in some cases, a kitten or puppy that came home around the same time that you were born. Could be an animal that was at any stage of life when you were a child or when you were adopted, or kind of when you entered a household, which means you often grow up alongside an animal. And sometimes that means a very early loss, and sometimes it means this is an animal that was with you throughout your early childhood development and is a big part of your experience. And in adulthood, I think it's very common when people are setting up their, you know, first houses and apartments is okay, it's time to get a pet. And that's a big life change. So pets often come into our lives at times of big change, and again to this kind of intimate interiority. They are the people that we are closest to, with the exception of the other humans that we live with, and we have this deep connection with them that carries through with us. They provide emotional support. They are the people that we celebrate or mourn with. And so they're kind of these witnesses to these experiences in your life. And I think it's very

American Culture's Fear of Mourning

s.e. smith 12:25

common for people, you know, you talk to someone who says, Yeah, when we were living in San Francisco on Lombard Street in the 70s, we had face and face, our two cats, and that like they remember those cats' names because they were an important part of their family and the important part of the San Francisco apartment. So we form memories around pets as well as eras and times. And obviously, it's not pets have lifespans that are very different than ours as well. And I think sometimes there's almost a feeling of a closing of a door as you go through different phases of life. And sometimes, very coincidentally, you have a pet who either comes into your life or dies right at a really important crux moment for you. I had this happen last year where a friend's cat died three days before he died in a just totally weird coincidence. But it was like both of them had decided, okay, this is the end of this era in a very final kind of way.

Kristiina Wilson 13:21

That's that's tough. So one of the central ideas in your book is that our culture, that American culture, fears mourning, um, which I've certainly found to be true. Uh, what does that fear kind of show up as in everyday life, do you think?

s.e. smith 13:36

Gosh, it shows up in all kinds of ways.

Kristiina Wilson 13:38

Yeah. And it's like a jump, please explain American culture. Go.

s.e. smith 13:42

It shows up in people not showing up when you're grieving, in people only showing up for a short period of time and then expecting you to be over it in the way that people challenge the way that you grief and mourn. It shows up in things like almost no paid leave policies protect grief and loss. If they do, it is often first-degree relatives, so parents or children. Right. So not your human extended family, let alone your animal extended family. It shows up in the way that we, again, are really uncomfortable with sitting with the fact that death happens and it sucks, and that that is that is just a reality of the world. It shows up in all kinds of policy. It also manifests in the way that we view some kinds of grief as more acceptable than others. The example that I keep coming back to is when a president dies, um, which is hopefully soon, it's very accepted that, like, you're gonna close down a whole city, right? There's gonna be a motorcade, there's gonna be a procession, there's gonna be a ceremony at the cathedral. Often there are multiple ceremonies all over the country. There might be a National Day of Mourning, flags are at half-mast, like it is a whole thing. You have accepted that everything is gonna be shut down because this was a big deal. When you have a black man who's shot by police and people close down a freeway, it's well, this is really disruptive.

The Impact of Capitalism on Grief

s.e. smith 15:03

What if there's an ambulance? What if someone needs to go to work? This is not the okay way to protest. Obviously, it's sad that this happened, but you need to find a more appropriate way to protest. And I think that is just a classic example of how much this country struggles with grief and loss and the expressions of grief that make people deeply uncomfortable. You think about when you see someone crying on a subway train, who is the person who moves to the next car and who's the person who sits next to them?

Speaker 2 15:29

Right.

s.e. smith 15:30

When someone in your friend group is really struggling, who is the person who comes to sit with them, even if it is literally just sitting and not saying anything? Who is the one who shows up to support them? And this also manifests across popular culture. I think you'll see obviously death and loss show up in a lot of television shows and books. And with episodic television, it's really interesting to me because you'll have this big deal death, and then it's like two episodes and then it's just done.

Kristiina Wilson 15:57

Yeah.

s.e. smith 15:57

And I think some shows do this better than others. And I think that really speaks to the way that we think about death culturally as something you put in a box and put away.

The Intersection of Grief and Social Justice

s.e. smith 16:09

And, you know, I think to the kind of speaking of our how we value and don't value non-human animals, when we get into pet law specifically, very much long tradition in European culture of viewing animals again as not human, as not conscious, as not having feelings and emotional connections. I mean, people believed that animals did not experience pain. I know people were performing vivisection on living conscious animals and being like, I don't know why this dog is crying. Like, what's the problem here?

Kristiina Wilson 16:45

Or they they would say, Oh, it's just a, you know, it's a neurological response. They're just having a neurological response to a stimulus, but it's not, it's not any kind of consciousness that's happening here. It's just a neurological response. Just woo, people.

s.e. smith 17:00

Yeah. It's just nocioception, right?

Kristiina Wilson 17:03

Very upsetting. Um, so jumping off of that, so you write a lot about grief as being a as a collective experience rather than an individual burden. So, how could we rebuild communal grieving in this kind of isolated culture that we find ourselves in?

s.e. smith 17:24

Obviously, talking about death and grief more often. Right. These topics tend to only come up in the very short term of, oh, you experienced a loss, we're gonna give you your 15 seconds, 15 minutes of fame, right? And then we're gonna move on. So integrating it into our daily lives, talking about it, talking about the way that grief is not just about a literal death, that there are lots of other kinds of losses we can experience in life that we should treat as grief, really making space for different kinds of grief, explicitly understanding that we're humans. Humans are very social animals, and that when you are isolated, grief can become overwhelming and can become really systemic. Whereas supporting each other, building community around each other, around people who are mourning and again around conversations, like I love the death salon movement of yeah, let's hang out and talk about grief. And obviously, also to build a culture where there is less loss, we have really made a lot of conscious choices to cause death and suffering. And we do not engage and reckon with those things. So we are cause actively causing grief. And one of the reasons we don't want to talk about that again is is colonialism, is capitalism, is power and control. Because if you acknowledge, you know, that there's a genocide happening in Gaza, that means that you have to be like, hey, this is wrong, and maybe we should stop doing it. Right. I laugh because otherwise I will cry.

Kristiina Wilson 18:45

I know.

s.e. smith 18:46

But to engage with this kind of right to maim, acceptable bycatch culture, you have to reckon with the fact that we are causing pain, we are causing suffering, we are causing loss. Also to see grief as a growth opportunity, it's not just loss and get over it. It's thinking about how fundamentally loss reshapes you in large ways and small ways, and how this is not about returning to a prior baseline, but growing with and learning things from loss, which means something that is an ongoing conversation and something that we continue to talk about and engage with throughout our lives. And to just uplift more death positivity and more of these conversations and seeing death and grief better represented in pop culture, in policy, in our day-to-day conversations.

Kristiina Wilson 19:33

Right. So, what role do you think capitalism plays in the pressure that I think a lot of us feel to kind of move on quickly after a loss?

s.e. smith 19:44

So many things. In the most immediate and practical sense, you have no value under capitalism to society if you are not working or if you are not as productive as society wants you to be. And grief and loss tend to affect both of those things. So not purely from a logistical sense. Like my father died earlier this year, and I spent a week not working because I had to do a lot of immediate death stuff that needed to happen that week. It could not wait. And so I had to tell everyone that I worked with, I'm a freelancer, but I consult with a lot of organizations, like, hey, I'm out this week. Whatever it is you need me to do, it is not happening this week. And capitalism really does not like that because how are you contributing if you're not working? So we see that reflected in obviously not good paid leave policies and the pressure to work through it or to return to work as quickly as possible. I mean, I know so many people who are like, hey, like I'm at my dad's funeral, but I'll get right back to you later today. And it's like, girl, yeah, you don't need to do that. Like, I didn't realize when I emailed you I got your out of office reply. It's fine. So to make more space for people who are grieving, to make more space in the workplace for talking about these things and to acknowledge, hey, someone might have experienced a big loss and they're back to work, but that doesn't mean that they're all good now. It's okay to be like, hey, you know, I heard about your dog. I'm really sorry. That must have been really upsetting for you, to have more than just like, here's a condolence card, right? To have some sort of collective acknowledgement. And obviously that capitalist pressure of get back to work manifests itself also in the get over grief as quickly as possible because you're making people feel weird and gross and uncomfortable. And this kind of capitalism, imperialism, colonialism affect so many of our cultural values. And as I was saying previously, also capitalism causes so much suffering and grief. This is a machine that we are all trapped in and the production line keeps moving,

Navigating Grief Beyond Death

s.e. smith 21:46

right?

Kristiina Wilson 21:46

Do you mention that people in the workplace feel weird and gross when they think about someone that has grief? What do you think it is about death and grief that makes others feel weird and gross? Is it that it makes They have to comprehend that they're living in these weird meat sacks that are one day gonna also die? Is it that they don't like to confront the feelings of others? Is it what what is it that makes people so uncomfortable in this culture?

s.e. smith 22:14

So many things at work there. Yes, obviously your own mortality, especially when it's a human death of like, oh, that is gonna happen to me eventually. I think particularly when it's an unexpected or traumatic or I mean, all deaths are upsetting, right? But you know, an out-of-order death, like someone who loses a child, it brings up a lot of feelings, right? And you also start thinking about the mortality of others. Hey, this person's mom died. Like, oh shit, my mom's gonna die too. Or I think, especially with things like pregnancy loss or young children, are very taboo topics in part because people almost act like it's contagious of like you had a miscarriage at 22 weeks, I'm pregnant. That could happen to me too, to be clear. I am not pregnant. Cosplay someone who's pregnant, right? But to be like, I don't want to think about this, this is really scary. And it is scary. It is super scary to think about the people and animals in your life that you love dying and not being able to do anything about it. This is really the ultimate non-preventable thing that happens in your life. Also, people really don't like human emotion, particularly very expressive, intense emotion. I think you see that around other feelings, right? Anger, sadness in other contexts, emotions that are very intense make people super uncomfortable. And again, emotions that you don't know what to do with. Like if someone is angry because Susan from Accounting keeps eating their lunch, and this has been going on for six months, it's like, okay, there's a fix to this, which is to get Susan from accounting to stop eating your lunch. You're angry, we fixed the problem. Susan has apologized, you're still annoyed that this happened and will have a permanent grudge against Susan, but like problem solved. People want solvable problems. And when people are presented with something that they think of as a problem that can't be solved, it kind of short-circuits them. And also there's this understanding of grief as a problem. Like, what if it's not a problem? The fact that you view it as a problem is an expression of your discomfort that is in turn making you more uncomfortable because we don't we don't like things that are open-ended. We don't like things that are unclear. And I think also because all of us have cultural values about what normal grief should look like, when we see someone else grieving, they're not going to grieve the way that we grieve. And that also makes us uncomfortable and unhappy, whether it is, wow, this person's sister died and she's back at work two days later. Like, does she have a heart? Like, what is the deal? Or this person's hamster died like two years ago. Why does she still have all of these photos all over her house? It's creepy, right? Like we we fear and dislike difference.

Kristiina Wilson 24:51

That that makes sense. I think some of that is also behind the like when you hear that someone's died and then everyone has to know why. What happened? So that you can try to self-select out of that, like, oh well, that this happened to this person. That's not gonna happen to me, or that's not gonna happen to my loved ones. I always have found it so curious that when you hear someone has died, everyone has to know why or exactly what happened, I think, because they they need to somehow make sure that that's not gonna happen to them when really it's it's probably none of their business.

s.e. smith 25:20

Uh I think also it shows up as a weird form of small talk because like someone died. Okay, I don't know what to do with this information. I don't know what to say. I guess I could say I'm sorry, but I feel like I should have some kind of conversational pro Oh, so what happened? How did she die? Which also a distancing tactic 100% of Chido died of COPD and I've never smoked, so that's not gonna happen to me. Or, oh, he died in a car accident, but I'm a super careful driver, so you know, he was probably speeding.

Kristiina Wilson 25:49

That's fair. So I want to talk a little bit about the opening sections of your book where you talk about how you sort of grew up in the turnal house in Greece. How did growing up around death so openly shape you?

Cultural Perspectives on Death and Grief

s.e. smith 26:03

Yeah, so I think as we were talking about earlier, kind of the uniqueness of American, of American Northern European death culture in Greece. It's a majority Eastern Orthodox country, and the Eastern Orthodox Church has a very different approach to grief and loss. There is a lot of obviously funerals tend to be a much bigger deal. Whole communities are engaging in grief as a collective project. There's this idea, certainly in the 80s when I was living in Greece, of you know, widows would keep wearing black for an extended period of time, sometimes the rest of their life. And this was very accepted. And also there was much more direct contact with the body. Families would lay out the body, the body would be at home, you could go visit the body, the whole village would take the body to the cemetery. So it was a whole collective death activity. And I really feel that having the body present, being able to touch it, being able to care for it is a huge difference culturally because you're confronting death in a very personal way. And kind of the ongoing care of the grave and the cemetery. One of the things that I write about, so the Charnel House, for listeners who might not be familiar in the Eastern Orthodox Church, some other faith as well, when you bury a body, you later exhume it and you transfer the bones to an ossu area, area where bones are stored. So people are usually present for the exhumation. Again, families will handle the bones. They're very careful about making sure that everyone is accounted for and is in the box. So you're getting a chance to connect with the body again. And the charnel house is a place that anyone can walk through and spend time in. And, you know, especially in the summers, like grief is hot as hell. There was no air conditioning anywhere in the 80s. Obviously, a lot of houses are designed for that climate, but the charnel house was like cool and shady and was a very nice place to hang out if you were overheating.

Speaker 2 27:54

Yeah.

s.e. smith 27:54

And being around those bones, I didn't find being around bodies frightening. I didn't find expressions of grief and loss frightening because they were just part of daily life. They were things that I interacted with regularly, and I definitely carried that into the US. I remember being so puzzled as a child in the US and still as an adult of like, it's a funeral, but there's no body present. What is happening here? Or this person died at home. Why did the funeral come home and col come come collect them? Like, why are you not taking care of them at home? Or this person died in a hospital. So obviously you're going to take them home to sit with them for a while, right? Like, why why are we not hanging out with the body? I have questions.

Speaker 2 28:36

Yeah.

s.e. smith 28:36

And why are so many rituals around grief and loss obviously very kind of short and also not really engaging with that?

Kristiina Wilson 28:46

Yeah. I had I have one client who recently did have a viewing for their cat. They had their cat euthanized at home. And then they had, I think the next day they spent some time with it, the cat at home. And then they had a viewing. They they gathered flowers from the yard from, you know, the cat liked to go outside. And then they they set it, set it up, and then had all their friends and family come and they had little viewing and a little memorial. And I thought that was a very nice idea. And it was very nice that they had so many people who came to participate and kind of share in that. That was the one and only time I've ever heard of anyone doing that. But I think that's a good idea.

s.e. smith 29:20

Do you know a few people who've done it? I love it. I love it when people do that. I think it is a great way to honor animals and also to give people a chance, people who did have an emotional connection with the animal, like cat sitters or a friend of mine is a vet tech, and someone invited her to her dog's viewing because they were like, hey, you've known this dog for 12 years. You probably have some feelings about it, even though you met him in a professional context. So big endorser of having ceremonies and rituals for pets that do involve being present with the body and involve the community as a whole again.

Kristiina Wilson 29:54

No, I agree. And do you have any other thoughts about kind of what should be included in memorial rituals? Uh, like should children be included?

s.e. smith 30:02

I mean, I think so much of it is dependent sort of on an individual family's kind of culture and relationship to the animal, obviously. But one, yes, have some kind of ceremony. If you are really uncomfortable with bodies, you don't have to have a body present or you don't have to have cremated remains present. I know some people have euthanized their pets and had no interest and were just like, please take the body away, don't want to think about it, which I think is problematic in its own way and would love to see cultural shift there. But that's like a whole can of worms that we don't want to open. But yeah, have a conscious moment to mark a death. Spend some time with photos. If the animal is present, have flowers, have photos, have its favorite foods, let other animals in the household participate so they get to interact with the body as well. Spend time with the body too. It's not like, okay, my cat died. I gotta get her in the ground in the next 12 hours. Like you can keep a body around for longer. You can use dry ice and refrigeration and other techniques if you want to stay with your animal for a couple of days. I know some people have slept with their dogs and cats for the first night or first two nights. And to, yeah, welcome the community, welcome involvement, have a have an altar. And in terms of kids, 100% big enthusiast for having kids involved at their age and comfort level. You know your kids more than other people, right? But to not assume that children don't want to be involved or that they'll be traumatized. Again, if you're making Death Talk a regular part of the household, it's not like here's this big scary thing happening for the first time. It's, hey, remember how we've talked about this? Cindy Lou, our beloved spaniel, has died. Do you want to spend time with her? Do you want to see what she looks like? Do you want to help plant a bush over her? Do you want to collect flowers? Do you want to pick out photos? Kind of involving kids at their comfort level, because it's super jarring for children to just have a pet like disappear. And for parents to be like, oh, you know, she died. You hope they do that and don't lie, right? Right. But to give them an active chance to participate not just in death care, but also end-of-life conversations and to talk with your kids about what is euthanasia? How does euthanasia work? What does it look like to consider having your kids present again, depending on what you know about your children and their comfort level, and to say, hey, you can be engaged with this, you can ask me questions, uh, you know, we can talk to you about what we are thinking about as we make euthanasia decisions and to get your thoughts about it. Obviously, with older kids, especially, you know, teenagers and high schoolers like should be playing a very active role in that process with a pet that, again, they might have grown up with and be very connected to. Something I do hear a lot from folks. Uh, people don't think of people in college as kids, but do have that familial child relationship to their parents who say, like, yeah, in my first semester at college, the family dog died, and it was just like, hey, Brody died, and there was no consultation, no opportunity for me to come back and visit, no, you know, that health is declining. What do you think? It was just like, by the way, this thing happened. So to ask people, to ask questions, to invite people to participate is so important. And I think making this into a collective whole family activity is really important for everyone's morning process and is a great way for kids to develop a more emotionally healthy relationship with grief.

Kristiina Wilson 33:22

I agree. So I since you mentioned euthanasia, I wanted to talk a little bit about that. Why do you think that so many people carry guilt after euthanasia, even when it was medically appropriate, it was compassionate, it was the right decision. What's going on with that?

The Emotional Weight of Euthanasia

s.e. smith 33:38

Obviously, many things at work here. Probably the first one is that it's a very final decision. Like it is it is literally a life and death choice, and that makes it very, very permanent. And making permanent choices is scary. So I think you probably see this in your own practice as well. That the number one regret I see from Pet Guardians is we waited too long. We should have euthanized earlier. And that is a particular species of guilt that I think we should be interrogating more closely because people are reluctant to make that decision. Again, it's final. Like, well, you know, she might have a couple more good days, or, you know, she really rallied yesterday. I think she's gonna be okay. I see so many people just get into this bizarre, wishful thinking of like, bro, your cat is dying of kidney failure.

Kristiina Wilson 34:22

Yeah.

s.e. smith 34:23

She's not going to get better. You've been doing fluids, you've been doing special diet. Like, this is a there, this is an inevitable trajectory here. So there's some, I think, kind of selfishness around keeping animals alive sort of longer than they should have, around the finality of this choice, around feeling like you're making a big decision for someone else. And I think there's also this myth of the good death, right? Everybody dies naturally, and dying naturally is you go to sleep in your cat bed and you just don't wake up again. Yeah, no. And having both in my own life, in my work with animal shelters and at veterinary clinics, I have seen a lot of natural deaths, and almost none of them were like that. Most of them are traumatic and upsetting and horrendous because the body will keep going, even under incredible pressure. And it's like I see people with these pets who are suffering, and I just want to like crap them and shake them of like, do this final kind thing for your pet. Yeah. We have this opportunity to treat euthanasia not as giving up or as a failure, but this is part of the full spectrum and the continuum of care for an animal. And yeah.

Kristiina Wilson 35:34

I think that I think you t hit the nail on the head with I think a lot of people view it as a failure. And then I think there's just a lack of education around especially what the end stages of life are, especially for cats, because as most cat people know, cats are so good at hiding pain, at hiding discomfort. I I know what I've heard from a lot of veterinary professionals is that it's always better too soon than too late.

s.e. smith 35:59

100%. And I think another thing that people are starting to do a better job with is uh not just looking at quality of life scales, but assess your animal on a day-by-day basis. Like literally write down what you're seeing, and you're gonna see trends that don't lie.

Speaker 1 36:14

Yeah.

s.e. smith 36:14

And I also think veterinary professionals really struggle with these conversations as well for a lot of reasons. And I think that schools are doing much better education now around end-of-life communication and euthanasia education and being open with clients about this is what the process is like. I can explain it step by step if that makes you feel more comfortable. But these are things to think about when you are making these decisions and to be empathetic and say, hey, this is a scary choice and it's very final. And I get that it is stressful and it feels like you're gonna make a mistake, but you know your pet really well. And I think if you were honest with yourself, you're gonna be like, hey, this let's not just wait for the next good day and then be like, well, if she has a really bad day tomorrow, then I'll call the vet.

Speaker 2 36:59

Right.

s.e. smith 37:00

And people don't seem to understand the value of like make just make the appointment.

Kristiina Wilson 37:04

Yeah.

s.e. smith 37:04

Just make the appointment.

Kristiina Wilson 37:06

It's true.

s.e. smith 37:07

Because otherwise you're just gonna keep on dragging it on. And the horrible thing that I see happening to a lot of people is an emergency euthanasia.

Kristiina Wilson 37:15

Yes.

s.e. smith 37:15

Because the animal crashes and you don't have time for the 9 a.m. euthanasia appointment the next day. Like you need it right now. Uh, and that is a horrible experience.

Kristiina Wilson 37:24

It is. I think one thing that was it it depends certainly on your animal's health. And when you have an animal that you or a pet that you know has a terminal diagnosis, like we did with Steve, uh, who had SCC, which is an oral cancer that's very fast moving. And we were able to sort of make a plan, you know, if we see this, then this, if we see this, then this. How do we want him to have the best death that he can and the best life that he can? So we were able to, when we found out his diagnosis, make this plan, have him assessed by a hospice facility, you know, have everything kind of go according to a plan so that when we were so emotional in our heads, we didn't end up doing that kind of like, oh but this and oh, but that, we could just look at the plan and say, nope, according to the plan, this has happened, so now we're moving here. And I think if you have an animal who has a a diagnosis like that, it can be very helpful to have a plan written out for how would you like this to go? How do you think your pet would like this to go? You know, when you see these signs, what would your next step be so that when you get super emotional, you have something written down that can help you.

s.e. smith 38:30

Yes. And I think veterinarians can be a really important part of that process, too, of talking about these stages. And something else I tell people is like, you don't have to wait for your pet to get sick to think about what that's gonna look like for you. And it's also with with human death planning, think about what you want your end of life to look like, what you want your pet's end of life to look like before you are actively dying or facing a terminal diagnosis, because that's the time when you can really think things through. I think of this all the time with human advanced directives, where I'm like, you need to sit down and talk with your people about what you want rather than having them make these lurching from decision to decision in crisis, because this way they know what you do and you don't want the level of intervention you do and you don't want your tolerance in terms of stop treatment point. It's just so important again to to talk about death and to be like, this is gonna happen. It can go real bad or it can be sad but fulfilling.

Kristiina Wilson 39:23

Right. Exactly. So how do you think or why do you think cats become such emotional anchors for people? Is it because they're in the home most of the time? What do you think is driving that?

The Unique Bond Between Humans and Cats

s.e. smith 39:37

I mean, in the home, most of the time, obviously a big thing. They're living with you in very intimate ways. And I think there is something important in the human-animal relationship, which is different than uh relationships between humans. So when you're talking about non-human animals, there's usually less conflict, right? You're not getting into fights with your cat all the time. Yeah. Obviously, you're like, bro, get off the counter. Come on, right? But you're not getting into these huge, emotional, intense fights. You're not making big household decisions together. Animals are very tuned into your emotions. They're very responsive to who you are and how your day is going. When you're having a bad day, your cat is gonna come snuggle with you and interact and want attention in a way that humans around you are obviously gonna be sympathetic, but sometimes it's it doesn't feel as intimate and as I don't want to use a word like pure, but as selfless in a way. Like animals are very connected to you. And I think also there is this thing around this is a being that I'm responsible for, that I care for, and want to make false comparisons because obviously human children are very, very different than non-human animals in your household, but that similar kind of feeling of protection and responsibility and care is a really deep emotional and cultural connection that is super different from a spouse or a roommate or someone you work with or a friend that I think society is also kind of bad at recognizing.

Kristiina Wilson 41:03

No. So do you think that living with cats makes people more aware of mortality because they have such a shorter lifespan?

s.e. smith 41:11

I mean, it's an interesting question, and I'm not sure I have a firm answer on it. I think living with animals in general has that effect on us because most animals have shorter lifespans than we have, and so we are caring and living with these creatures that pass in and out of our life more quickly than the humans around us do. So certainly a mortality reminder, but I think also people really dodge feelings of mortality as well. So there's probably a side of, well, we expect cats to have shorter lifespans. So it's not surprising that Sadie died at age 15 because she's a cat. Right. So I expect that to happen. I, human, am gonna die at 85. My friends are gonna die at 85. We're gonna be sitting on our porches at 75, waving our canes at those kids on the lawn, right? So you're both more aware because you see more death and almost less aware because it's like, well, that happens to animals, not to people.

Kristiina Wilson 42:04

That's that's fair. You also wrote in the book that people often reach out to strangers because they feel like they don't have anywhere else to take their grief. What does that kind of say about how we function in society right now?

s.e. smith 42:19

I mean, I think it speaks to our really intense desire to avoid grief and loss and these uncomfortable topics. So I think this comes up for me anytime I do any reporting on pet law, certainly as this book is entering conversations, and I'm sure after release, I just get deluged in emails from people who are so desperate for someone to just listen to them. Sometimes it is literally, I know you're not gonna respond, but or don't feel like you have to say anything, but people just want to tell that story and feel like someone is interacting with it, and there are kind of a lot of separate conversations to have about parasociality and putting that emotional weight on someone you don't know.

Kristiina Wilson 42:59

Yes.

s.e. smith 43:00

But with pet loss, there is very much the I feel like I can't talk to anyone, especially with people who have losses that are several years past, saying people are fed up with listening to me, and I still feel like I have not had a chance to really fully process this. And so, and I'm sure you get this as well when you do episodes about grief and loss, you get responses of let me tell you about this, let me tell you about that, let me tell you about this behavioral euthanasia that I'm still agonizing over. And it is just very much

Navigating Grief in the Age of Social Media

s.e. smith 43:31

you're you're scared to talk about death because you've had so many negative reactions.

Kristiina Wilson 43:35

Right. Do you think that social media has changed the landscape for people to be able to express their grief and talk about their pet loss? Like, where do you think social media kind of lands in this conversation?

s.e. smith 43:48

Definitely, and I would say in lots of different ways that I find extremely interesting because I notice some people who are involved in end of life with both humans and animals are more likely. Talk about it on social media. So you get little bits and pieces, and it kind of starts to normalize some of those conversations. As we were talking about earlier with Steve, like when your animal is well known on the internet and your animal is sick, it feels really weird to not say anything. So you want to share something, but then sometimes you get into people are a little parasocial and weird about it, right?

Kristiina Wilson 44:20

But yes, yes. They can get very weird. On the on largely people, in my experience, anyway, sorry to interrupt you. Largely people were very supportive. There was, I'd say, like 5% of people who were absolutely batshit crazy and would be like, Oh, you need to try this herbal supplement to cure cancer and like you're crazy and you're torturing your cat and you should just shoot your cat. Like, people would just say absolutely insane.

s.e. smith 44:46

Pocket.

Kristiina Wilson 44:46

Yeah, just really crazy stuff. And then especially when he actually died, it got really, really crazy. But for the most part, the community was wonderful.

s.e. smith 44:55

Yeah. So I think on the one hand, yes, we are normalizing these conversations. Social media is a fantastic platform for memorializing, for sharing information, for connecting with each other. I know so many people who said when my parent was in the hospital, having that lifeline of just talking on social media really meant a lot to me, this kind of real-time support. I think also, though, we get into some really interesting stuff around parasociality, into almost losing control of the mourning process. As you know, you have people making weird judgmental comments or these really kind of like dramatic over-the-top responses of like, oh, I loved seeing her on my feed, and I'm just so devastated. She was my favorite cat. She was so wonderful. And it's like, you never even met this cat. Like, I'm glad that you enjoyed seeing her on your feed and had a connection with her, but like, this is a little wild. It's like when a human celebrity dies and people like get really intense in it and have trouble separating, like,

The Impact of Social Media on Mourning

s.e. smith 45:59

this is a person who people were emotionally connected to and lived an interior life. It's not just a public figure.

Kristiina Wilson 46:06

It does.

s.e. smith 46:07

And I think also social media has some interesting and cool stuff happening around death. So there's dead pet girls who have an account on Instagram. I love them, talking about pet death. They started with talking about celebrity pet death, but they're opening up all these conversations. Another person I really love is Pot Roast's mom, who's been very open and active talking about grief and loss with her cats, with the cats that she fosters. Another person I think of is the woman who has little corn. I don't know if you follow her on social media. I'll send you her stuff later. But she is a foster person. Uh so little corn is a cat with kind of dwarfism and some congenital stuff going on that was initially a foster that she then adopted. And one of the things she specializes in is phosphus. And so she's like, I am deliberately fostering cats that I know are going to die and talking about end of life. Yes. I think phosphus is a huge, a huge and wonderful service for people who are able and willing to do that, for animals to have a caring home and to be loved, as opposed to being in a shelter, you know, having poor quality of life in whatever setting. And like sometimes you have a phospice animal that's like, it's been four years, buddy. Like why I'm happy for you, but like this is not what I was expecting. So I do think social media has made some of this more public and has got people thinking and talking more about loss and also educating people. I think a lot of people didn't even know that phospice was an option, right? And think, oh, maybe this is for me. And so that is a really kind of lovely blessing side of social media. But a blessing and a curse, as in all things.

Kristiina Wilson 47:42

Of course. I but I totally agree. It would be amazing if more people got got into that work. Are there rituals or practices that that kind of help you stay connected to the animals that you've lost?

Rituals and Practices for Remembering Lost Pets

s.e. smith 47:54

Yeah, so I think like a lot of people, I do keep an altar in my house. So I have photographs, I keep cremated remains there. I also keep, you know, favorite toys, I keep flowers on it. I kind of have a rotation of objects that meant something to those various animals. Depending on which cats are living in any given time, I will have something like churu or treats. Tricycle cannot control himself. I would have to have like a lockbox. So there are currently no churu on the altar.

Kristiina Wilson 48:19

I we have to have ours in a lockbox.

s.e. smith 48:22

Um to make sure to actually consciously spend time with it. So it's not just a background thing in my living room, but something that I visit regularly. It's one reason I switch things up a lot because it gives me a chance to, yeah, rotate the pictures, to visually change it, but also to reflect on the animals there. And I also am not wearing any right now. I should put some on before I call, but I do wear reliquary jewelry with remains. I've cremated remains, hair, uh, one of my cats, Layla, they did not do the greatest job with the cremulator. So a couple of whole bones survived cremation. So I have jewelry with those that I wear to carry them with me. And I know I think that reliquaries getting kind of less stigmatized to speak to Pot Rose's mom. She had Pot Rose skeletonized, so she has that skeletal taxidermy that hangs out in her living room with her, right? But to literally carry them with me is really important. And to make sure just kind of to acknowledge the role that they have played in my lives at various various points, rather than just being like, okay, cremated remains in the closet now. Right. Good luck to whoever cleans up after I die and finds like 80 dead cats.

Kristiina Wilson 49:30

They do accumulate, unfortunately, because of the difference in lifespan. We we have ours over, we have like a shelf on above our bed, and we have ours there with all their little mementos and portraits, and this sort of the same as what you were saying. And I also have reliquary jewelry with cremans in them. So for I've got lots of lots of them. Lots of dead cats on my fingers.

s.e. smith 49:51

But I Yeah I always love doing that an event. I'm like, how many dead cats do you think I have in this room right now? And everybody freezes.

Kristiina Wilson 50:00

But it's it's nice to have them, I feel like, always with you in in some

Cultural Perspectives on Grief and Loss

Kristiina Wilson 50:04

way.

s.e. smith 50:04

I think the big thing is just like talk about grief and loss and death more. Don't make it this scary thing that you only talk about when it's happening. Like that's traumatic for you and for everyone, and to stop thinking about it as an interior personal thing and to start understanding grief and loss as a larger cultural phenomenon that we carry with us, that we bring throughout our lives, that we bring to the ways that we show up for people or don't show up for people. And that is also just so important to ask ourselves, not just how can we talk about grief and loss in daily life, but what are ways that we can make these experiences easier? And how can we prevent these things? How do we prevent suffering? How do we confront the fact that some lives are valued more than others under capitalism? What do we view as acceptable bycatch or acceptable for the cause? Why do we think that way? And so to think about these things not as private matters, but something we are all doing together.

Kristiina Wilson 51:03

Is there one thing that you think that listeners could do today to be better companions to people who are grieving a lost pet? Or just grieving in general?

s.e. smith 51:14

A hundred percent. If you know someone who has had a loss at any point in their life, after you listen to this podcast, text them. Be like, hey, I'm thinking of you. You know, I know that you lost your mom a couple months ago, and people tend to kind of drop off. Like I had, you know, my father died in February, and it's already like, oh, that was a century ago, right? But I had someone who actually sent me a postcard that was just like, hey, just thinking of you, that meant so much to me. I will say, if you are a physical male person, that I think has even more impact of a than a text, but to reach out and say, hey, I'm thinking to of you, or hey, remember that time that you know the cat stole the roast off the counter? I just randomly popped into my mind. That was really funny and weird, right?

Speaker 2 51:57

Yeah.

s.e. smith 51:57

To have just let people know that you are thinking of them and to know like your door is open so they can feel like they can talk to you and get support from you and that you're gonna be kind to them when they try to open up that conversation.

Kristiina Wilson 52:10

Absolutely. I think I think a lot of times people, especially in in this culture, don't want to talk about it because they feel like, oh, I'm gonna remind the person that they had a loss and I don't want to upset them. And I think that it's always for me at least, it's always nice to have somebody talk to me about Steve and say, like, oh yeah, I remember this, and it was so funny. And that never upsets me. It makes me smile, even if it makes me cry. It's so nice to like remember and to know that somebody else is thinking about him. And I I just I I just want to dissuade people from thinking like that they're gonna remind somebody of a loss because people going through a loss are always thinking about the loss, or it's always there, it's never gone. So it's not like always aware. Yeah, it's it's not like they're just like doo-doo doo, and then you remind them and you ruin their day. That's never gonna happen. So I think bringing up a nice memory is always something nice that you can do for somebody. Is there something that you would say to somebody who's listening who might feel ashamed of how deeply they're grieving their cat?

Understanding Grief Without Shame

s.e. smith 53:08

I mean, I guess the big thing is do not feel ashamed. You know, it's it's hard to be like, don't feel this emotion that you're having, right? But to say this is something that society is imposing upon you, and you are surrounded by these pressures around the way we think about cats, the way we think about non-human animals, the way we think about grief and loss in general, and like there genuinely is no wrong way to grieve. And if anyone is making you feel that way, they are a bad person who should feel bad and you should not listen to them because they are wrong. It is okay to grieve at any level on your own timeline. I mean, I think there is a kind of a little side conversation there about if grief is becoming overwhelming and it is interfering with every aspect of your daily life, if you have been unable to get out of bed, unable to feed yourself, just completely disrupted for six months, you should go to therapy not to get over it, but to think about how to process that grief and how to be with that grief in a way that is healthier. But if you're mourning an animal deeply, that's because you deeply cared for them and they had a big role in your life. And it means a lot to continue caring for them in that way after death and carrying that legacy with you. And I would say conversely, too, if you have a listener who is like, my cat died and I didn't really feel affected at all, like that's okay too. You don't grief looks different for lots of people. And maybe there's a slow onset, and six months from now, it's gonna be this huge getting hit by a truck. Or maybe it's not. Like it's okay to grieve however you need to grieve and to do that at any time on any timeline.

Intersectionality in Mourning Experiences

Kristiina Wilson 54:46

Right. My last question is Did writing this book change your relationship with your current animals? And can you tell us who your current animals

Current Companions and Their Stories

Kristiina Wilson 54:55

are?

s.e. smith 54:55

So my current animals, I'm kind of surprised that they're not in here hassling me, actually. So I currently have uh I have Ash and Tricycle, who are obviously both cats. One of the chapters in the book is named after them, and it is kind of the one about pre-planning and inevitability. And I'm like, you cannot die before July 28th. Cannot, please don't. So Tricycle is about, he's just about to turn two, and he actually was brought into the animal shelter that I kind of support with operations. We think he was probably stepped on accidentally. I don't think he was a cruelty case, but he came in with just a completely shattered rear leg that Dr. Clare had to amputate. And a story that I'm familiar to many is I took him home because he needed to be monitored overnight, and then he just never went back to the shelter. And Ash is actually one of my fire cats in 2017, was a really bad wildfire year here in Northern California. And Animal Care and Control, which is an open admission shelter, was being flooded with um strays that were being brought in with evacuee pets. And the thing about open admission shelters that people really are uncomfortable with, talk about a whole separate conversation, is that they have to take every animal. They cannot turn animals away. Right. And so they were really doing their best. They had crates in the halls, they were reaching out to foster networks, et cetera, et cetera. But they were like, hey, animals here where the stray hold is expired, like we're gonna have to make some choices we don't want to make here. So I went over the hill to animal control and I said, give me like your longest-day residence or the cats that you're most concerned about getting adopted, which ended up being Ash and Ember. Which I have to say, if you are a person who is thinking about adopting, please go to an open admission shelter. Please, please, please. They are such an important part of the animal care ecosystem. The work that they do is so critical. Don't be like, well, I could never adopt from a kill shelter. It's like they don't like that part of their job at all. So please make it so that they don't have to do

The Role of Shelters in Animal Welfare

s.e. smith 56:49

it.

Kristiina Wilson 56:49

So can you tell us how people can find you, how people can find your book, how people can sign up for your newsletter?

s.e. smith 56:56

Yes. Uh so you can find me at Blue Sky. My handle there is SESmith.lol. Yes, I have a large collection of novelty domains. I can't stop myself. You can find my newsletter and information about the book at get ready for it, all my deadcats.com. Amazing. And my website where you can find more about my kind of larger journalism work, other books that I have been in, other fun Easter eggs, is real seismith.com. Real as in the genuine article, R-E-A-L-Smith.com. And you can also find information on all of those places about how to contact me, including my PO box if you want to send me a postcard.

Kristiina Wilson 57:32

Amazing. And when does the book come out again?

s.e. smith 57:35

It comes out on July 28th at all of the places where fine books are sold and possibly places where disreputable books are sold.

Kristiina Wilson 57:42

Ooh, I'd be very interested in those places.

s.e. smith 57:45

Likewise.

Kristiina Wilson 57:46

Yeah, I like a disreputable book. Well, thank you so, so much for coming on the podcast. This has been such such an interesting conversation. Uh, I feel like we could extract this or make this into like 57 more episodes about various different topics. But I'll settle for this one right now. And I really hope that everyone listening goes and purchases a copy of the book of All My Dead Cats and Other Losses and subscribes to the newsletter, which is called Tell Your Cat I Said. And uh thank you so much for for chatting with me. I really appreciate it. Yeah, it was truly a

outtro2026.mp4

Kristiina Wilson 58:18

pleasure. Thanks so much for listening to the show. If you're looking for one-on-one support with behavior issues like litter box problems, aggression, anxiety, or multicat dynamics, you can find me through my behavior consulting business, Catitude Adjustment, at catitude-adjustment.com. If you like the episode, please consider leaving a rating or review. It really helps us grow. For more episodes, show notes, and resources, head to hissandtell podcast.com. Huge thanks to Cat Beats for the music, and I'll see you next time.