Inside the mind of street photographer Richard Koek Part 1

Richard Koek: Capturing the Essence of New York Through Photography

In this episode of Meet the Streets, we explore the life and work of Dutch photographer Richard Koek, who moved to New York City in 2000. Richard shares his journey from assisting other photographers to establishing his own career in street and documentary photography. He discusses the compositional and poetic aspects of his work, the importance of depicting personal stories, and the ethical considerations in photographing diverse neighborhoods like Williamsburg, Brooklyn. Influenced by renowned photographers and inspired by urban daily life, Richard reflects on his published books, 'New York, New York' and 'Tokyo, Tokyo,' showcasing his unique perspective on the beauty found in everyday moments.

00:00 Introduction to Meet the Streets
00:15 Meet Richard Koek
01:22 Richard's Journey to the US
02:29 The Role of Assisting in Photography
05:34 Transitioning to Independent Work
10:49 Surviving Economic Crises
16:45 Balancing Passion and Profession
21:47 The Impact of AI on Photography
38:01 Richard's Inspirations and Books
47:59 Reflecting on Pre-COVID New York
48:19 Capturing the Resilience of New York City
53:01 The Metaphor of an Empty Train
54:55 Times Square: From Decay to Disney
57:34 The Subway Cello Player
01:01:48 The Oculus: Art vs. Capitalism
01:06:57 The Frick Collection Event
01:25:32 Ethics in Street Photography
01:29:19 Behind the Scenes of a Movie Set
01:32:51 Conclusion and Transition to Tokyo

Thank you for listening! If you want to see the video, go to my youtube channel street photography mentor.
To see my street photography you can go to my instagram @keithmpitts or go to my website keithpitts.com. There you can also get info and sign up for my street photography workshops in Paris.

Transcript

0:01

Welcome to the next edition of Meet the Streets, a podcast for street and documentary photographers. Today, we're gonna meet Richard Koek, a Dutch photographer living in New York. Join me each week and meet another photographer from somewhere else in the world. And now, Richard. Uh, welcome to the next edition of meet the streets. Uh today we're gonna we're gonna have a lengthy talk with richard Koek and You're going to learn a lot. I know i'm going to his work is amazing And uh, he needs to be more of a household name you know, if you if you peruse, uh photo bookstores, you might already know him, but again according to uh, his Sub 100, 000 followers on uh on instagram. He's got to become he's got to become more of a household name So anyway after that Richard, please introduce yourself. Thank you, Keith. Thanks for having me, Keith. Um, I'm, I'm Richard Koek. I'm, um, well, how will, how is, how will I explain this? So I'm Argentinian, Dutch, ethnic, ethnically, um, ethnic wise, um, but I'm a Dutch American, citizen wise, let me say it like that. So born and raised in the Netherlands, and I'm now a full time photographer. Um, and this, yeah, this is what I do and what I love, and I'm, I'm happy that I'm doing it. That's in a nutshell. In a nutshell. So going based on that, uh, when did you. Move to the U S that's a while ago already. Can't believe it, but it's, um, that was a 2000, so that's 24 years ago. Yeah, almost 24 years. So right. One year before nine 11, that's always like the, the, the, you know, the, um, One of the big change points in a lot of people's lives. So, um, so 2000, I moved to the United States, um, basically thinking that everybody here in New York was waiting for Richard Cook, which, which, um, which was not the case. And, um, I've learned a lot along the way and now I'm, yeah, just doing my thing, but 24 years and, um, I started assisting. So that's kind of like. Um, what I, how I started, uh, to work in photography, I basically, um, started to carry bags and back in the days it was loading film, um, in cameras, yeah, for other photographers on the job. Yeah, so again, it's interesting to hear that because, and it's not necessarily a new thing, it just, uh, people throughout history, but, uh, I always found, because I did the same thing. I, I, of course, I didn't move over. I was in New York already. So, uh, that's where I'm from, but the idea of assisting like the, and the assisting is not, let's go like, uh, if you look at a lot of people want to be assistants today, they don't really mean they want to be an assistant. What they want to do is they want to shoot under somebody, but you don't learn anything. Like, and as, as an assistant is the way to go to actually learn when you're just, you know, schlepping your ballast. You're working your way from third to second to first. You're loading film. Now you're doing other stuff. But, um, I can, you actually have a chance to see how everything is done and observe, which is how learning happens versus what's going off and doing your exact same thing. And then think, Oh, I'm learning. No, you're not. You're just shooting, doing exactly what you do. Under something else's name, that's not assisting. So it's good to hear it again. It shows in your work that, uh, that you know what you're doing. I've learned a lot by assisting basically, I'm looking how and watching how professionals did their thing. And, um, also what I have, um, at a certain point, well, I love the whole. Apprenticeship idea of like, you know, being, uh, being the second to the person who's basically calling the shots and, um, and also being a confidant of the person who was calling the shot. I was always like the one next to the person who would like whisper in his ear, like, you know, maybe this, maybe that, maybe think of this, maybe think of that. So I could be a little bit, um, his second eye or her second eye. And that's how I learned the trade basically. Cause Before I went to the United States, I did two years of photography school. And since I already have enough, um, diplomas and, and, um, I'm, I'm a law graduate in all honesty. Yeah. I basically, uh, I was like thinking, well, I don't need to finish school. I just want to learn the trade. So I learned the technique. Two years in school at the photo Academy in, uh, in Amsterdam. And then I moved to the States and I was, that was part of my plan. Basically, I want to now learn the traits by trial and error and see how people do it. And so that's why I started to like, um, drop off my resume and had like a very modest portfolio to show to, um, to, um, representatives of photographers. And. That's how I got into assisting and I've, I wouldn't, I would not have done it differently because it was a, it was so much fun to be on fashion shoots on some beautiful islands with, you know, on a sandy beach. And, um, um, and B I've learned a lot. It's yeah. And also I learned also how not to do things. Sorry. Do you hear that? Do you hear that? Oh, okay. Cause I Messages are coming in. Sorry. And, um, And, um, at a certain point, you're like, um, started to become resentful, at least in my, in my case, I started to become a little resentful of like, you know, I literally, there was a photographer who flew in and I'm not exaggerating, who flew in to photograph a piece of paper from Europe, flew in to photograph a piece of paper. He's a still life photographer, which was also a very good, um, good lesson. And that's when I started to like think, um, This is, I gotta do this. I gotta do things myself right now. Let's that's how I started to stop assisting. And I went my own way. I needed to find my own, my own path and being the photographer. Yeah. Did you go into it? Did you set yourself like a boundary, like a time I got with me personally, I went in and I think, okay, I'm not going to do this more than five years. I'm like, I'm going to cut off at five years. If I'm not. Ready to go on my own. I'm calling it because like I just needed to have a goal. And I, I, I saw plenty of assistants that were, and speaking to photographers who I was looking to work for, they were talking about the assistants that had been assisting for 10, 15 years. And at that point, you just think that maybe they're never going to not be an assistant. And so there's, there's really no longterm, it's a sad thing, but as an assistant, there's no long game, like you don't retire from being an assistant usually. So I don't fully agree with you because what I've realized is like, I've, I've met what you say, I've met assistants who were doing it for decades, but it's kind of like in the movie industry, you have like a team behind, you know, the whole set. Of like gaffers and people who do the lighting and for, and especially in America, I've learned that, um, being an assistant, being a second off, uh, behind the stage, being, being the technical, I being the precise person is a job it's, it's, it's really a profession. And I've realized that it's not my profession, but I'm, you know, it's not a sad thing, but like you said, cause it's just like, if that's the, if that's what people feel happy to do, then, then they should definitely do it. Yeah. Yeah. I agree with the happy thing and the comfort zone and all that. Just that there's no, I just looked at it as there's no union. There's no job protection. There's no, there's no savings. There's no, you're, you're a contractor and more often than not. So it's really, really difficult to go. I, again, it's the, and the ones that are doing it that long are obviously amazing at what they do. Like that's the guy that you'd really like to have making sure your production goes off well. Yep. But it just, I feel that, again, for me, it wasn't gonna work that way'cause I just had my guy. Same for me. It wasn't in my head. I'm, I need to be that guy calling the shots and like, I'm gonna give myself this time and it doesn't work out well then I had no real plan be it point, so I just had to make it work. That's true. Yeah. That's just the same for me. So at a certain point I was like, I need to like stand on my own feet and, and do it myself. Yeah. And that's when I started to like, um, make it my job, like, you know, um, the, the hustle in New York city to like, um, pay the bills, which hasn't ended after 24 years, to be honest. I can imagine. Nope. Yeah. They are. I used to go back. We moved from, uh, New York to Phoenix in 2005. And so it was, uh, again, so like you. What you thought the New Yorkers are just waiting for you. I'm like, Hey, I'm coming. I'm coming from New York to, uh, to Phoenix. I'm like, they're gonna just, they don't know what's about to hit them. I'm like, I'm going to take this all town over. And, uh, that didn't quite work out that way. You still have to. Pay your dues, scrap your way up and the whole nine. So yeah, it's funny how it's good. That was in you, you, uh, you can think that way this way. It gives you something to hope for as you're, uh, as you're struggling. And that's, that was actually what gave me, what gave me the, you know, the push to like jump the ocean and start all over again. I really thought that everybody, cause like the, I went here to like show my book. So I went around, met Dutch photographers who were living in New York. And I felt very welcomed, which is still the case and which I do now on my, uh, myself as well. If people come to me and ask for advice, I'll be always willing to share what I know, what I, what I've learned. And, and everybody thought that I did great work. So it was always like, Oh, this is great. This is great. And I learned later on that everything is great. And it's like, you know, the way they, it's like basically how the compliment is, um, is defined is kind of like how you really know how they really feel about things. I had to really like, I didn't understand how, you know, how, because in New York, it's like, whatever you think, how crazy the idea is, go for it, you know, make your dreams come true. So everybody was very supportive, but I realized there's a difference between this is great, and there's a difference in between, um, And let me hire you and I'll pay you to like, take a photograph. That's like a total different, you know, step. And I had to learn that there's a, yeah, there's a difference in compliments and a difference in hiring and, um, and being the photographer. Yeah. So, uh, what we're going to get into the whole street photography thing for a lot of this, but, uh, but for now, what, uh, so what is it on the professional side of things? What is it that you're, uh, that you do, do you have like a specialty or do you, uh, I was pretty much a jack of all trades, my specialty was not being special. I was like, I got bored if I did one thing for any length of time. So I had to bounce around. Plus, of course, it was say when 2008 hit when, and there was, and things were getting shuttered up and, and people were losing contracts. And I lost, uh, I remember it was just because I was diverse that I managed to survive that like as easily as I did because in three days I lost about a good third of my, uh, my annual budget, my annual projected income. All like, bam, bam, bam, like three days gone. Why was that? Why did you lose that? Uh, the, that was in the, uh, the housing for it. Actually, I take that back. Actually, I'm, I'm, I'm mixing up my crisis. The, uh, the, that, that fast one was actually was COVID, but in 2008 was with the housing crisis. Yeah, that's, yeah. That's when I had, uh, suddenly corporations were, uh, were just saying, Hey, we don't, we don't need to fly you in. I'll just hire somebody locally. And I had a lot of, uh, I had a lot of corporate business. And so next thing you know, it's an, I have to, uh, just work close to home and you just make it work. So I feel bad for the people that, that again, specializing is a great thing until your specialty, uh, is on the chopping block. No, I, I've had my crisis too. Like I just mentioned nine 11 after nine 11, dead, no work. A lot of people left. 2008 was also the economic crisis. All creative budgets were being cut. Um, and, um, yeah, and then, of course, the whole change in the economy of digital photography was also a big change because then suddenly the technical assistant became very important to know who knows how to work light room and all of all the other, um, pro capture. What was it again? So it became so whole all new new professions were being, you know, created and, um, yeah. So my street photography is more and more. Generating a certain income, but I also still work on assignments and you know, the editorial assignments never really paid the bills in all honesty. They covered the costs. Um, unless you like, you know, shot a cover or something like that. And unfortunately, because I always wanted it, but it never happens is, um, I never really went into like the commercial photography. Those were the guys and, and women that I assisted who were like doing the big commercial jobs for, for big brands. I never really rolled into that. I kind of like rolled into, um, the event photography, which is in New York City, a big business, uh, the big fundraisers, the big corporation, the, the, the conventions. And basically then I'm being hired together often with a celebrity who was also being hired probably for a much higher rate. And, um, and then we would both work the events and I would like, then, then be like the, or the red carpet photographer, not the press, but being on the carpet with the stars as the in house photographer, those were actually the jobs that, that paid my bills and that I really loved doing. And still, you know, and still do. Yeah, that's cool. Yeah, and we, there's some parallels between us. Again, the same thing I, I started, I was assisting some very, very upscale commercial, uh, photographers, like thinking that that's what I wanted to do until I recognized that I just disliked the, uh, the, the ecosystem. I just didn't like the way the, the machine ran and, uh, I ended up doing was, uh, event work, uh, various types and corporate work and whatnot, which a lot of times is events, but sometimes other stuff, but it just seemed to fit my personality more. Yeah, it's amazing. And I think that's the most important thing. It has to fit your personality. Your personality because I also did fashion. So in the beginning I did some, some fashion stories for magazines in Europe. And then I realized, um, and especially when you assist fashion photographers, you see a difference because I noticed that the, the, the real fashion photographers were very passionate about fashion. And I realized I didn't, I couldn't care less about fashion, to be honest. And what I cared about was. And then again, the street casted models that I sometimes use were, I thought were way more interesting than the professional models who, again, were like beautiful and perfect blank canvases. And when the makeup comes and goes, they're like, you know, they were like turned into like a completely different being. Um, I thought the street, the street models were way, were real and I was more interested in that. And then I realized I'm not passionate about it. And so that kind of stopped. I, and so basically. Weaving myself with trial and error into what kind of photography fits my personality best. And that turned out to be, um, events, high energy, high energy, um, happenings and street photography. Had the wandering the street and, and trying to find beauty of daily life, which turned out to be more and more. I basically, my dream would be like my, my Yeah. Who wouldn't wanna be roaming the streets the whole day and like capturing images and being able to pay your bills with that and, and living off that. So that would be eventually my, my goal would be just making beauty and sharing that with the world. Yeah. That's terrible. I like that. Yeah. But yeah, on my way, I'm on my way. Yeah. Unfortunately it was going to be always get stuck with paying the bills and that's, uh, that just gets in the way, which is again, is why probably the, uh, Again, I'd say most street photographers and probably most, if you think about it, most photographers in general, some really, really outstanding photographers aren't professional photographers because they, at some point, were good at something and then maybe photography came in as their escape. But they need, they need their, their two lanes. They need their catharsis and they need their income. So I'm trying to think, I can't think of his name. So do you know, uh, okay. This is, don't ask me for names because I'm like the worst. But to, to, to, to get back to what you're saying, so there is a big difference when you have to pay your bills with, with this craft, um, simply because. Living in New York City is really expensive. And the first worry that everybody has living here is, Am I going to make the rent? Or am I going to make my mortgage each month? That is a big concern if living is very expensive. So basically that's the first concern. If, if photography is your business to like pay the rent. And so you make, we had this discussion before we were like going into this interview about, there is. Cause you, you interviewed a few people who were like, not professional photographers and still make amazing work, of course, but there is a difference of like making photography your business and, and, and that means that you will also have to choose sometimes to do things simply because it gives you a paycheck and that, and that gives you, or it gives you the freedom to do things for yourself, you know, personal project or anything like that. There's always, especially living in New York is a life of compromise. It's never perfect. It's always, you know, it's too expensive, too small quality of living kind of like, you know, evaporates when you compare it to other great, you know, locations. But so living here is, is making choices and, and trying to make the best of it in order to stay. And that's, um, yeah. And that's, that's different. It's a different living. And it also gives you a different attitude towards whatever comes your way, um, compared to somebody who does it pure out of passion. Yeah. Thinking so, like me, you, your income is solely derived from, uh, from photography, which means you're obviously what you're getting paid for and paying the bills is photography. And then your street photography, which you're doing for the, because you just love photography is also photography. Do you have anything outside of that, uh, like any kind of creative endeavor or music painting? Uh, I have no idea. That's interesting you ask that. I would love to do a lot of other things. I, I simply can't. So, um, I would basically, in all honesty, um, if it was up to me, I would have been a painter. Um, but talking about personality, um, Waiting three weeks for the oil paint to dry wasn't really fitting my personality. So I really, so I let that go. And, but I'm still thinking I would love to go to, um, um, to the arts league here in New York and take classes in, in drawing and painting because I still, um, Susan Sontag has in her book about photography, she mentioned that, that photography, it was kind of like, you know, the, the profession of manipulation and, um, and painting is actually. The real, the real deal when it comes to like, um, creating something beautiful with a certain motivation, um, that is closer to someone's authentic self and, and yeah, I still believe that, but you know, photography fits, fits my personality better. It's, it's interesting to, uh, the history of, so obviously painting's got a much deeper, a longer history than photography does, but once, once photography came around, it became like a grass, the paint or painting is started to, uh, copy certain things about photographs that they never would have thought, such as painting obstructions. When, when normally you'd paint, you just go, you paint it perfect, there's nothing in the way, and you just get this whole thing. And then paint, photographers were jealous of, uh, of painters in order of it being a, considered a legitimate art. And then started doing things that got to your impressionist and your, your, the data movement and the, uh, and actually does that was more than just, um, I'm getting my, uh, my art movements completely, uh, skewed here. But anyway, I remember each side kept trying to copy aspects of the other one. And finally, I think we're at a time when. They each have, they've got their own place. Photography is considered an art and, uh, not just a document. And, uh, yeah, now we have other things to worry about. Absolutely. Cause both will be like washed away by artificial intelligence and the prompts. But I do think, you know, in the end, it all comes down to what, what, what effect does it have on the viewer? And that's why photography became a fully respected, um, I believe a fully respected art form simply because. a beautiful photograph can enchant a person just as a beautiful painting can. It's only often not one of a kind and that's the big difference between, uh, between paintings and photography, I feel. But for me, it's about what does it do to the viewer. Um, and in all honesty, I've always thought that whatever I think of my work doesn't really matter. It's what it, what it evokes into the person who is viewing it and please tell me, tell me what you see, you know, and yeah, so that's, um, But yeah, that's a discussion that's always been, and still, you know, you can still, you can still find. people who do distinctively differently about painting and photography as art forms. But you know, I'll just do what I do and that's it. Yeah. Well, you know, let's, let's somebody else figure it out. Yeah, exactly. Yeah. Uh, thinking about, uh, artificial intelligence, the, uh, you know, obviously I, I personally don't have any problem with some of the things, a lot of things I've seen, I've seen some amazing things. And recently I had thought for years that I can spot. Like, just in my gut, I can usually tell when something's artificial, but it's gotten to the point where I've recently seen some, uh, that actually I fully thought, and I looked hard, and I could not find anything to tell me that it wasn't a photograph. Again, I guess I don't really have a problem with that as long as they're labeled, uh, artificial and not a photograph, because a photograph obviously requires, has photo in it, and therefore it has to have light. This is just. Complete it. Nothing about, uh, nothing but computer prompts. So what do you think as far as it being its own art form, as long as it's labeled and then they come up with a name for it. I fully, I fully agree with you. I, um, I've actually done a course in mid journey to like, figure out what's the hype all about, what is this? And. I learned how to, how to deal with the problem. It's absolutely mind blowing. And, um, I've, I've, I've, I took a class of a photographer who basically specialized herself into, um, artificial intelligence and, and creating series with, with, um, with just giving prompts in all honesty, if you're really invested into that, the programming of art, artificial intelligence, I do still believe it's a creative, way of expressing yourself kind of like comparable to an art director back in the days who basically would like Tell what that person envisioned. And then you had a photographer who would like make it real. And then you would like adjust it as an art director into the way that it would be perfect. And that also is a creative way. It's basically somebody who has something in his head that that person considered beautiful or successful, successful for the assignment. And, uh, uses the tools available to make that, um, into, to make that, Into real time. Um, visual. So it is for me, creative. However, it's not photography. In my opinion, it's basically shuffling of pictures, pixels. And, um, I have no, well, it's the same kind of discussion that you had when, um, uh, when the digital photography came in and, you know, then you had this discussion about, uh, analog and digital. And, yeah, so. Although I do think artificial intelligence will have like a way bigger impact than in our profession than the digital, um, format, um, did to our profession. And you know what it's, um, I basically accept everything. I basically accept everything that, um, technology gives us, because let's be honest, I do use artificial intelligence. I actually, in my new book, I saved a few images by using one of the programs that sharpens Motion out of focus, um, imagery. And I was like, it's unbelievable how artificial intelligence can fix things. And, um, and now actually my archive, I'm thinking there are pictures that I just dropped because they were technically. Not up to, you know, up to my standards. And now I'm thinking I can, I have tools to like bring old pictures alive, let alone old archives, you know, giving, giving life to old archives. It's it's, it has wonderful possibilities, but the realm of artificial intelligence of course, way bigger than photography itself. Yeah. Um, The concern is what you say is basically people, um, throwing things in on the worldwide web that are not real, pretending it's real or not labeling so that the people who've used it cannot make its own determination, whether it should accept it as something as a fact or not. And that is something that is very concerning when we're dealing with the truth or not. And, um, an artificial intelligence does definitely place with the dangers of, of that. And here in, uh, again, you're by birth European, so I don't know. I don't know about any of the other ones. But here in, in, uh, France, like before artificial intelligence, they were even labeling. If you look at a billboard like I was wa passing by, uh, a huge billboard of Lenny Kravis the other day. And, uh, in the, the bottom right corner, it said that it was a retouched photo. And so I'm a guy. Oh, no, that's interesting. And so that in Europe, I'm sure I at least I know in France for a while now, if you. You've got an ad and the the photo in it is retouched like the person you have to you've got to Disclose that because otherwise if you look what happened like in the argument in the u. s Anyway, we're how disruptive and how how Modeling, let's say the fashion industry has, uh, given kids the, uh, like a bad feeling about themselves because they don't look like these. But in real life, you've worked in the fashion industry. I've been in the fashion industry for a little while. I've seen it. The people in those things don't look like that either. And so if you're, if you have people, again, this is just with actual real people and some Photoshop. Now you take, uh, artificial intelligence and put it into the mix. So I, they have to find a way to. And of course, there's still going to be people that are just going to play outside the rules. But, uh, within the realm of the commercial and the everyday, they should make it, uh, make it, it's required that they disclose whether it was, uh, artificial intelligence or not. Yeah. I, I do have one remark when, when you, when you're talking about photography in this way, because it's, it kind of like, and I've sometimes I say to people who I'm photographing, photography has nothing to do with reality. And that, and why I say that is basically, um, it is from back in the days, from back in the days when, um, who was the photographer again, who did the migrant, uh, mother, Dorothy Lang, for example. Um, a lot of those photos that are, have become icons of, of American history. Um, you know, there's definitely some retouched things have been erased from, from, from, um, even just to make things perfect. So from, from the early days, photography has always been like a tool to create a perfect world and to, and even when it comes to like, Photojournalism, for example, like I still believe that as a photographer, you choose. All the, the aspects that create this photograph and then in the edit room, you also like, you know, pick, pick and choose the right picture to, to tell the story that you want to tell. So there is always manipulation involved when it comes to photography. And this part of manipulation to me, uh, is, has something untruthful in all honesty. So, um, although photography is seen as like the example of. Truthfulness. It's not. No, it can't be. I always believe it's, it's not. So artificial just gives another layer of this untruthfulness in this whole heap of, um, you know, of creating a world that we deem more beautiful or, um, better than the world that we're having. Yeah, I just heard something today from somebody I never thought I would quote and from a place I never thought I would quote it from, but I was just, I just happened to be skimming podcasts and, uh, the Wall Street Journal had this podcast and they were interviewing Paris Hilton. I'm thinking myself in my life, I've never thought Paris Hilton would come across, but she was talking about, she's obviously a billion, how some ridiculous amount of photographs have obviously been taken of her and she's running a successful business. I've always given her the credit that, okay, I don't care what you think the public perception of it, she's running a successful business and some, it's hard, even if you, it's hard to run a business and not look like you're running a business. Right. Right. And so. She's, she's very successful at this point. And, but the reason I'm bringing this up is that she was talking about how, thanks to artificial intelligence, she can now get pictures of her in clothing that she wants in a location of her choice without ever having to leave her house. She can just have artifacts. There's enough images of her out there. They could literally just totally generate a shoot. And what made me think about that is immediately I started thinking, well, there's a, there's a whole, like, creative crew. That out of business, like, because she again, she was, uh, she's the thing people like to photograph her. And so if you wanted to go and photograph whatever her product is, or something that she's doing, she doesn't have to do it anymore. And with that in mind, she won't be alone. There's going to be a bunch of. Uh, celebrities out there that are going to go, you know, I just don't feel like doing that. Let's just have AI put me in the Alps in a ski and a ski suit, take 20 years off me. And, uh, and we'll call it a day. I see now in the subway, um, advertising, it's all AI. I can, you know, it's sometimes it's like, well, obvious that it's like all fake, but it's still basically like a creative budget is being put in, in, you know, the people who give the prompts and who create it. So, yeah, so there's going to be a whole new profession and, um, some photographers will feel, you know, we'll feel, feel this in, um, yeah. And the revenues and the work. Yeah. It's going to be, it's going to change for a lot of people. Yeah. A hundred percent. I could totally, uh, yeah. Again, and when a change happens, like, uh, it's like something you cannot, you cannot, but you're going to have, you're going to have to talk about, you know, also the copyright issues when it comes to like the usage of images, you know, That are, of course, AI has referenced uses the references that we give, which is imagery that's being made and it's copyrighted, and that's also an interesting discussion about, you know, who owns it and, um, what can you do? And with that exactly in mind, I'm having a, uh, a talk on Sunday and we're actually, I'm, I'm going to borrow if I mentioned, yeah, yeah. I'm going to borrow it. So I love your, uh, your, your, uh, You're mentioning that art directors are basically prompt are feeding in the prompts to the photographer who was the pre AI, but with the, uh, the copyright thing is my, my thought on that one is to use a, like a real world example, all of us walk around and look at copyrighted work and we store it. So if you think about these, these AI engines that are just going through, they're not specifically saying, okay, I'm going to take the Mona Lisa and just put the Mona Lisa over here. They're taking an aspect of it. They're taking, they're, they're seeing these little tiny things and we do that just in the course of daily living. We, we, we see images that are copyrighted. We see things that inspire us and we put it in our head and eventually what comes out, what comes out doesn't look anything like what came in, but we have been inspired by all. So when I was thinking about that, I was thinking to myself, I no longer have a real big problem with that. As long as they're not. Directly, and actually, I think it's odd for people to, like, it's change, people are afraid of change, but the idea that this computer, whatever it is, is just like a baby, it's just learning, and it's not saying, you can have somebody out, you've got forgers out there who will forge a painting and sell it for millions of dollars, we all know that's unethical and illegal, this is the same thing will be with AI, if they make a direct copy of something and put it out, you know, Totally against the, uh, the copyright. But if they go, I like that style and, but I like this and I like that, and I'm going to put it together and what you're going to, what you're going to see from it, it's just an amalgam of all sorts of different things. It's no different than any, any photographer ever born who, uh, The only issue that, that, that I have realized also with AI is, um, When using, um, the image, the image, the image programs is that, um, you also see on, on the, on online. Basically if you look for AI and, uh, Afghan girl, you know, the, the, the cover of the, the cover of, um, the National Geographic of this, this, the girl with the, the Afghan girl. Yes. Super. Yeah, yeah. Steve Mc. So what happens is, like when you like type in Afghan girl, you get like. Pictures that are similar to the Steve McCurry photograph, simply because there's so much out there with this girl in, in the image, um, that it becomes like the, um, that it becomes the source of an African girl. So the, the danger of this whole programming, I tried, for example, um, um, um, I tried to get like a woman of Muslim faith, but then with a dark skin, which was like impossible to get this program to, to, it always would be like, A different, uh, not the shade that I had in mind simply because it doesn't have the, the source material to create it. So I realized that also the program is actually very flawed when it comes to like, you know, um, diversity and stuff like that, it's all like a big mishmash of like the, you know, what the big general source. Gives and which is not always a positive one. So yeah, so I, I do see a lot of problems when it comes to that as well that it does create automatically something that, um, that is, you know, it's all, it's all. Yeah. Generic. Yeah. Yeah, I can see. We've got decades to, uh, to work all this stuff out. It's interesting times. Let me say it like that. It is. I guess it's, it's like the, uh, if you think back in the, the start of, uh, photography, so the, I'm sure the painters at one point thought, Oh my God, we're, we're, we're out of a job. And then, uh, yeah, color photography. But I do have to say, I was thinking, I was thinking, am I going to do something with this AI with my profession? And cause that's why I did that course to see if it, like, if there's something that creates my creative. You know, juices? No, it's like, I'm glad that I tried it. So I know I can talk about it. What it is. It's amazing. It's, it's wonderful. It's sometimes it's mind blowing, but it's not. I'm thinking every hour I spent making prompts and, and, and, and, and defining it more perfectly. I'm like, I could be outside taking beautiful pictures and I'd rather do that. So that's it. You know, I've done it. That's it. I can have, I can have an opinion now. That's it. Well, that's good. It's always best when you have an opinion based on actual knowledge. So, uh, let's start getting into some street photography. Now I see, uh, I recognize the books behind you, uh, all three of them. And anybody that doesn't, the two on the left. I wish that the third one was mine. Yeah. So anybody who doesn't know, so we're about to learn a lot about Richard, but the, um, the book on the right by August Sander, who is an amazing German photographer, who is, again, I, again, changed the way that I saw portraiture, uh, yeah. And I, you know, as we seem to have a, a similar feeling on that. So anybody out there write it down, August Sander, go check it out. Absolutely. That said, August has been dead for a long time. He's not going to make a dime off your, your, your purchases. Let's uh, let's look at, at a state. Well, it's a state that's still like running. Yeah. Okay. So, uh, how did you again, get into street photography and then was it, was it catharsis? Did you, what got you into it? I, who are your inspirations and let's get into August. Cassandra was definitely an inspiration as, as, um, I've always loved photography. I've always loved, um, taking pictures of the funny thing, even when I was like 12, 13 years old. And I would have, I had like a small camera and I would come home with pictures and people were like, who are these people in this picture? And they were like all strangers. So like, I already had like a feel of like the other, um, and, and I wanted to photograph and capture that. Never knew that it eventually would, you know, become what I'm doing right now. My, my path. August Sander was one of those photographers who showed me a window into another time. Another world. It was the pre World War Two pre Nazi era, uh, photography, and it was actually the coming up of of Nazism in in in Germany, and so he basically would like an anthropologist would like capture everything around him, whether it's like his artist friends, the poets, the philosophers. But also the banker, the baker, like all the trades. So he would basically like put the subject into its micro cosmos of its environment and take a beautiful portrait. But he also photographed the Nazi soldiers that were coming up. Um, but also the gypsies, the blind. And so he also saw the beauty of. Things that were not perfect and, um, the, the circus, um, you know, the circus people, people working at the circus, uh, which I thought was fascinating. And so everything he created, he captured. had this really sense of beauty. Then the Nazi regime came in and then he was forbidden to take any photographs anymore. He was not, he was forbidden to do the same work that he was doing simply because he showed also the, the defect side of, of society. And that's not, of course, what the superior race wants to like promote itself with. So, uh, he, he ended up basically doing, um, um, um, Environmental nature photography, which is kind of like a sad ending off of his career and but that was for me that when I saw those prints hanging at the Rijksmuseum, these like beautiful, small, black and white were so many shades of gray, so many beautiful. I was so enchanted by the beauty of what he made with his camera that I really wanted to do this. And that's kind of like how I started to get into taking pictures of people. That's cool. Yeah. And again, he was, yeah, basically the, that book behind you is kind of like a catalog of Germany and the, uh, the early 20th century. Exactly. That's cool. Fascinating. And it's also, there was also wild times because there was like, um, the, the era between world war one and world war two were kind of like, you know, the, um, The, the studio 54 times of Germany. Yeah. Yeah. Yeah. So let's, uh, bring up your books. Uh, let's start off. I've got, I'm going to do the share screen thing. Once I find out where my share screen thing is, and we're going to see, uh, let's see. I go, there we go. These are my two books. Yeah. Yeah. So we're gonna start, start there. Again, I like the, uh, the title. New York, New York and Tokyo, Tokyo. Tokyo, Tokyo. Yeah. It was kind of like a joke. It was kind of like a joke that I'm like, um, well, how are we going to call our second book? So the first book was New York, New York, because of course that's from the, you know, the city. So nice. You have to name it twice. Um, so that's why I named it New York, New York. But, um, when I was enchanted by the beauty of Tokyo, I was like, how are we going to call the second book? And I was like, let's call it Tokyo, Tokyo. So, um, My first book was published in 2018 and that was New York, New York. And, um, I'm very blessed that I have two books that I've been able to make on an assignment from a publishing house. That's, that's, that's one thing. Basically, um, I pitched the idea of New York, New York to a publisher who saw. It all started with, um, I had a small gallery opening. I had a small solo show in 2016 in Soho, downtown Manhattan, where I had my New York City pictures, um, Exhibit exhibited. And I made a little catalog, you know, those blurb things that are print that, um, that you can make online. So everybody like bought a print and it was quite a successful show when it comes to sales. That was the first time that I'm thinking, Oh, people really like my street photography. And the second thing was I made that catalog and I gave it to anybody who bought a print. And so it has the pictures that were like showing. Um, and then somebody said, you have to do something with this. When it was, when the person saw. It all printed out and that's how we got it. And she worked for a publishing house and then the ball started rolling. And then two years later, I finally signed a contract. Because I've learned a lot with making a book in all honesty, but I've also learned a lot about, about how books come to life. You know, the whole decision making by a publishing house, uh, before a book hits the shelves. It's like, it's so much, it's so much BS that has nothing to do with photography, but it's very important, uh, in order to like, you know, to, to make it happen. The second, so the, the first book, New York, New York was basically part of my archive because I live in New York city. And when I knew that a book was going to happen, I also wandered the streets in order to capture certain, certain things that I thought needed to be in the book, but also a publishing house that wanted certain things in the book in order to sell it. You know, it's kind of like always this, this balance of like, um, it needs to sell and it also needs to be something that. I am, you know, I accept as my work. Um, yeah, so that's, uh, that's New York, New York, New York, the first cop, the first copy sold out, which was great. So like 3000 are for soul. And then we made a second, we make a second edition, uh, Uh, that's smaller because the big one was like a big coffee table book and the second one is now out and still available. So here we go. Yeah, this is one of the pictures. Is it? Yeah, sometimes because I still take pictures of New York. I sometimes don't not sure if it's in the book or not But this is one of my I call this my soul later, uh photograph. Um, the the famous street photographer Um, who was very, very, um, uh, a master in, um, using color in his work. And, um, yeah, this is one of the pictures that I photographed of, of New York city that you can find in the book. And basically if you can go back, I can show you a little bit about how I made the picture. So this was like around 5am in the morning during a winter storm. This was, I think, 2018. It was right before the book came out. I needed some snow stuff in the book. So I was like, I am going to go out in a snowstorm. I actually hated my job at the moment of taking a picture in a snowstorm. I thought my camera is going to like totally be destroyed with this. It was windy. It was like coming down. I had my camera on a monopod. So I was like high up in the air with a camera with frozen fingers, because that sign is pretty high up on the building and I had it like, and basically I used my phone because nowadays you can connect your, your camera with, uh, with an, with an app, with your iPhone. And I'm basically click the shutter and I see on my iPhone, what the camera is seeing, and that's how this camera works. Picture came to be an absolute miserable situation, which turned out to be very beautiful, but a great, a great use of technology. Cause it might, my thought was like, what are you standing on? Exactly. No, the camera is just floating in the air being destroyed by the snow, but the idea that you had a, uh, actual viewfinder in your hand while it was up. Unbelievable. Yeah. Very cool. I love this. Yeah, this picture actually was not part, um, this is not in the book because my book was from 2018. So the interesting thing was, One of the things that I managed to sell it to the commercial department of the publishing house was, well, all the books of New York that you see on the shelves are like, you know, the crazy 80s or the beautiful 50s or like, you know, there was always like a time era. That would be significant of what you see in the book. Um, and I thought, well, we need something contemporary, just daily life of New York City right now. Not knowing that, of course, COVID would happen, which would change, you know, the landscape completely. And now I realize I also made a timestamp book because this was the book that everybody flips through. And the first thing people think is, this is pre COVID. This is before, you know, all the terrible things. So, happened because New York City was hit very hard by, uh, by COVID. This was one of the few pictures that I photographed when I started to take my camera again and walk the streets. Um, you still see somebody with a mouth mask on, and this kind of picture I shot, uh, actually two blocks away from me here, that for me, kind of like sick, um, was a metaphor of how New York City felt after COVID. Totally beat up, um, everybody was hurting, and, uh, we did not know if things would be, you know, if things would turn okay again. And, um, and so for me, this, um, and also this. Uh, fire department, um, emergency station, button station, such a strange thing. Um, it also like kind of like, uh, looks like, uh, actually a person like somebody that, um, you know, that is actually hit by something. Yeah. So, um, for me, it, it, it told more than just, um, and the light was beautiful. It was, it was early day. It was very early in the morning. And so this is one of, yeah, I love this picture. And this, um, as well is actually during COVID because you can see that there are like these, um, outside constructions, uh, outside of restaurants that are now. Um, actually being shut down slowly by, um, by the city. Um, but that was one way of, um, of being able to still, um, gain a revenue with all the COVID restrictions that, um, the restaurants were dealing with. And that's what I love about New York City too. It's kind of the resilience of like, still trying to make that buck to like make it, you know, to stay alive. It's so, it's such part of the hustle in New York. And this picture is, um, um, I think it's beyond it. Well, it's in Chinatown. And, um, again, it was, it was not snowing that much anymore. Um, the light was already coming up and I love like the, all, all the greens that were happening. Actually, that is booking, booking station of, um, uh, what you see, the, the, those green, the green facade that you're looking at. I think it's actually copper that is turned green. And that's the booking station. When you're arrested in New York City, you're being brought to this station and you're being booked in and you maybe can spend the night there. A friend of mine told me that. I mean, I'm glad I didn't know that. But, um, I'm, this is kind of like the fishing that you sometimes do as a street photographer. You see something, you see, uh, a scene that is beautiful, but somehow you want to have some actors in this, on this stage that kind of like makes it perfect. And when this person with the green umbrella walked in, I was like, I got it. This is going to be it. And I managed to, to, you know, to capture it. And, um, this made the, the, the picture perfect. It's pure color, Ryan, um, Yeah. And talk about color rhyme. This is, you know, also, um, this picture is actually in my book, New York, New York. Um, it's a super having a cigarette. I, um, I had a small chat with him. I, you know, sometimes I ask permission and sometimes I don't, it's, it's kind of different how I work. Um, I did ask permission cause I'm kind of like blatantly, um, you know, making him the protagonist of my, of my story. I, of course the blue color was the first thing that kept you behind. And He was perfect. Uh, he was totally relaxed smoking a cigarette. Um, and basically what I've realized, but that's the nice thing about about photography. You show it to people and people give you information what you have photographed. And I didn't realize that you see that little black thing that is next to him against the wall. Um, um, that basically is like, it has like a magnet. So basically supers sometimes have to do rounds and they have to tap it in order to like, um, to record that he is doing his work. So that's one, one thing that I didn't realize is, is, is part of, um, how they track that's, you know, supers are making their rounds on properties. Um, I love to sit, you know, the fact that two doors, the garbage can. Yeah. I love the, the, the different, the different metals that you see it's all metal and then it's blue and yeah, everything, everything turns out. Um, right. No, there are very good, insensitive repeating patterns and, uh, exactly. Yeah. So this was definitely, as you can tell a COVID photograph. Although in all honesty, this was like when people were just wearing mask and taking the train, but I was very early in the morning. So that's kind of like the myth of photography. Often you take a picture and people immediately tell or. Assume that, you know, this is the time that nobody was taking the trains, that it was everything was empty. It was not. I was just very early, but this photograph kind of symbolizes the fact because he's wearing a mask that it kind of symbolized the fact that we were not able to go, um, you know, On our ways, the way we were used to in a busy, in a busy city. Um, I do love to play with color often in my images. And, um, and I always loved an empty train. And I always loved those orange seats in the subway. And he kind of like perfected it by creating a disturbance in this perfect harmony. By sitting in, in, in this. Do you hear, um, my dogs seem to want to be on the, uh, the recording. I'm not sure if they're, uh, if they're coming through, I didn't hear anything. So, yeah, so this was of course, a picture that is not in the book. Um, but, um, uh, it's been published several times in, in, in outlets. It's funny, again, just having grown up in New York, I look at, this is now. Subways in New York have been relatively graffiti free for a long time. But in my head, I grew up in New York in the seventies and eighties. And this, there wasn't a surface on there that wasn't covered in tags and everything else. Like, so I look at those things, I get works by like say Bruce Davidson, uh, he did that subway book and you see all that, the, the graffiti everywhere. It's still in my head. It's so ingrained in how I grew up that when I, like decades worth of clean subways, and I still think that there's something wrong with this picture. Yeah, well, I can, I can assure you that New York City can still be just as dirty as it was back in those days, except for, except for the subways and Times Square, Times Square is an entirely all another. Absolutely. Uh, talking to somebody briefly, uh, a New York Street photographer and, uh, we talking, oh, one sec, stop. Okay. Again, I'm not even sure if she can be heard on this thing'cause of the, the directional microphone, but she's annoying me. So, uh, again, back in again, what I'll consider olden times, uh, times Square was so dirty and, and, yeah. Again, in the, the moral decay of it was just so palpable. And so before I was a photographer, I used to hate going down there. Cause I would get accosted to be, to buy drugs. And again, I looked like the guy you wanted to sell drugs and knives to apparently, because I could not go five feet without going on to the next guy. He was still trying to sell me exactly what the guy before was trying to sell. And, and then one whole row is just, uh, porn theaters, like from, from pretty much like sixth all the way down to, uh, To the river, practically, you had, again, just rows of, just one big row of porn theaters. And now it's, now it's Disney. And now it's corporate, now it's corporate America, who's still trying. You don't want to go there either because it's so generic and awful. Yeah, exactly. And now they're actually trying to steal money from you in much greater quantities. And, and, and, and they're not being as honest about it. At least back then they were, again, you knew what was happening. Right. Now you're trying to kid yourself that this is good for my children and good for everything. In reality, it's because these corporations are probably fleecing you. Times Square is, you know, it's part of the myth of New York City. Times Square is like where, I always call it the walking dead when I like, they're like these thousands of people just. Oh, like looking around, taking pictures, taking pictures of themselves. Cause this is the myth. We all know New York city from the movies we grew up with, or at least I did. Like, so it's always something, it kind of like emphasizes what you think New York city is, because that's what you've seen in movies and television. And so Times Square is kind of like one of those symbols that every New Yorker is like, you only go, you're only there if you have to go there, but, um, otherwise don't, don't bother. And it's just annoying. And, um, but it's part of the myth. Times Square is, it's, it's part of, you know, the, the myth of New York City. I, I, this is one of my most, um, yeah, one of my most favorite photographs that I photographed of New York. I, I, I love this picture on so many levels. Um, you can almost hear the music of the cello, um, coming through it. Um, so of course when it comes to like the people who are on the platform So this is photographed on the platform of the subway station So basically every minute every one and a half minute a train passes by And it made so much noise that you cannot hear anything. So in that small piece of 90 seconds, they're playing music and enchant people. I love, I love the fact that it's, um, it kind of breaks the stereotype as well, because when it comes to entertainment on the subway, you have showtime, you have people dancing, and they're always like young kids, um, and now you see, um, and I assume who's African American, I, um, playing the cello with kind of like breaks the stereotype of, of, of what you see on the subways often. And, um, that to me is also very important. Um, I love the fact that he How he holds the cello, how he closes his eyes, how he feels what he's doing, as if he's holding a lover. It's so beautiful. But if you look at the people around, you also see how he enchants everybody around him. The lady next to him, who is looking at, you know, at, at the cello. The instrument, the girl next to her, but even in the background, you see a father with two children looking at the violin player. And so for this short moment of perfect, cause also it's the subway. So the music really resonates and it's together with the visual of the tonality of all the browns that you see in skin instrument, and, um, uh, it's just all perfect in its imperfect. In imperfectness, it's like, you know, cause you see the dirt on the floor, you see an empty, an empty plastic bottle. You see the, the suitcases of the musicians. Um, it's not perfect and it is perfect and I, I, I love this picture very much. It's amazing the, uh, again, the, the varied levels of, uh, of skill of the entertainers down in the subway system and with the sub and above there's a, I sometimes get his name wrong. There was a, or is a jazz guitarist. Uh, I think it's Stanley Jordan. Again, I could be, I hope I have that right. But his whole thing is he, uh, he doesn't pick, it doesn't strum. He just taps, uh, with two hands on the thing. And he became famous. He's like, he's a really, really well known, uh, jazz guitarist. And the reason I bring him up is I remember the first time I saw him was standing at the entrance to the subway, uh, in Columbus circle. So I 15, right, right around 59th street. And, uh, I was like, wow, I just stopped. I'm like, I was just amazed by him. And then one day I'm watching like the tonight show or whatever it was. And he was a guest. I'm like, Oh, there's that guy from, uh, from Columbus circle. And he went on, he went on to like a, uh, like a hall of fame jazz career. And I think he's still doing it. So like, and you see what's good. This guy could be a Juilliard trained, uh, That's the thing of New York. There is so much talent in New York. Everybody is so good at what they do so often, um, that it kind of like, you know, yeah, that's what I love about New York. You have to be good in order to like, you know, to be here because otherwise it's, it's no use being here. And, and the level of competition is so high, but also it's so Um, inspiring to see people being so good. It only like makes you strive to go, to go better and better. And, um, but, uh, fortunately I'm just, I can just walk around and capture beauty. And here's something that didn't exist back when I, uh, again, this is, yeah, this, so this is, um, this, the, the transportation hub as it's called. That's near World Trade Center, and it's the Oculus on Church Street. And basically, in the back, the building in the middle, that's the, that's one of the World Trade Center buildings. And so basically, um, this is a picture. Uh, sorry, this is a building that is, um, Calatrava, that's the architect. So I was making the book and they wanted architecture in the book. The publisher said you need to have some architectural, you know, diamonds of New York City. And I do believe this is one of the diamonds that New York City has. Um, one of, one of my friends told me, this is basically the symbol of art winning from capitalism. Because it's on one of the most expensive spaces In New York City, but it doesn't go up in the air. It doesn't use the air rights that you can buy in order to go up in the air. It's as it's, it's a very like low building and it goes all on the ground. So it's not using the potential that it Can use in order to monetize space in New York city. So art wins in, uh, in this case, and it hardly wins. They, they paid billions to make this structure. Um, I was in the, the building from inside is, is absolutely fabulous. It looks like as if you're in, in inside a whale, like, you know, it's, it's. It's marvelous. However, when I was phoned, of course I went inside and I thought this needs to be in my book. I went inside and every picture that I felt like this is Calatrava's picture, the architect, this is not my picture. So I couldn't find myself in the images that I made. I was kind of frustrated, walked outside and looked at the building. The sun was hitting the building. And I also looked at the building when you can see now that the sun is kind of like, um, showing that it's not as perfect as you would believe it is. Um, but what happens it, it, I think it just rained. And so the surface in front of the building is, was wet. And I'm looking at this man who was hired to put down rubber mats on the, the surface, which is slippery. It gets slippery when it's wet. And I was thinking of this happening in front of me. I'm like, I think this, this building costed 4 billion to create. However, the makers were not thinking of the fact that the The marble gets slippery when it rains, so they need to hire a guy, put down this rubber, ugly mats in order to not get a lawsuit. So I'm thinking, this man, this anonymous person, this small little radar in this big city of New York, basically Is needed in order to make this big transportation hub, not to be a failure. And so that's how I realized how important those anonymous people are in this big machine called New York city. And he's basically doing that. Um, and, um, and saves the day for everybody. Um, so again, what makes it perfect is like, he's like bending over kind of like, I just shot, I shot many pictures of him doing his work and that, and it's all about the edit in the end. It's not about the moment supreme from Henri Cartier Bresson. It's all about the edit, I believe. And, um, I thought this was the perfect moment in like many other moments supremes that I, that I, that I captured that kind of like, you know, like, yeah, go ahead. I'm sorry. I'm just saying that once you mentioned what he was doing, it changed how I was looking at this because looking at just his silhouette, and then it turns out what I thought, again, because of his posture and his leg kicked back in a way, I thought that was a ball. That was actually many people think that. Yeah. And then as soon as you told me what he was doing, I realized that that's actually just, uh, uh, like a door, like a round kind of thing to push on the door again, to say the entrance looks kind of really, really cheap in all honesty, it's like, you know, these aluminum entrances, it's like kind of small, but the moment you're in, you're like, Whoa. And he's like, like his whole body's posture is like, I hate my job kind of posture, yes, his gloves on. And, uh, yeah, I, uh, and, uh, And then like, you know, and then, and then finally I could photograph Kala Traffa's masterpiece in, in my own way and, and still, and create a story as well. And again, this is from the inside. It's been photographed so frequently that I've never been to, I've been near it. Since it's been built, but I've never been in it. And yet I feel like I have, because I've seen so many pictures that are done well from inside. So it's good to come out and get something from an angle that people aren't really, what's it going after. So, and it just, you get your own stamp. Love that. Yes. That was the first question. Cool. The Frick, the Frick collection, it's a museum, uh, 70 something streets on the East side. So the Frick collection is a very, um, A very posh museum that has like a beautiful art. Um, however, there is an event going on in this museum. The Rijksmuseum, the Dutch Rijksmuseum created an event, uh, in, in, there's like a courtyard, so it's kind of like very unusual to see one of the, um, the. the signature pieces of the Frick collection, um, being in this photograph while you see people eating. It's kind of like something people are like, where is this? What is this? Um, it is in the museum and there's an event going on. I'm actually on a job photographing for the Rijksmuseum this event. And every time I'm on the job, I have to take a lot of pictures that I know the client would like to see, but when people are eating, you don't want to photograph people eating. So I'm kind of like being a little bored looking around me. And then I suddenly noticed her looking at me. And then I started to like, you know, get into the zone of like, I need to photograph her. And, um, eventually this picture all. Turned out to be so much more than I had in mind when I was taking that picture. It's like all the analyzing afterwards, because I don't analyze so much when I photograph. I just, you know, I'm attracted to something that I find or deem beautiful. And then I photograph it. But later on, I started to think this picture is kind of perfect. The thing in the background, I made that the protagonist of this story and she now is in on the foreground while she's all the way in the back. And it is a frame in a frame in a frame. It basically the frame of the picture itself, of course, but then like you got the windows that create a frame and then she is in a frame as well. So it's like, you know, one layer after another. And, um, and then actually what I also find interesting, of course, I started to like, look into this picture, like, who is she and what's her story. And it turns out is she's a socialite from like, I think that at the 1800s, it's, it's French and she just came back from the opera. Uh, if you look very carefully on the, uh, of the picture, it's anatomically a completely, a total disaster because her arm, if you follow the arm, that's, you know, that's around her middle. If you look at where her shoulder. Should be, it's in a completely low level. It's kind of like anatomically, actually like not such a great, um, painting. She was a very, a very, um, a vain person. Uh, it took three years for this painting to come to life. Well, this picture only took one thirtieth of a second to come to life and, um, and she actually had herself embalmed when she was, um, laid to rest after she passed away. So beauty was very important for her. And, uh, and beauty is all that I deal with when I, when I'm, when I'm taking pictures. So everything came together in this one picture. So funny. Now that you mentioned that now, when I look at this picture, all I can look at is how odd her, uh, her full arm is. I can't, I can't see it anymore. Right. It is totally awkward, but you know, people never see it unless you mention it. Yeah. Yeah. Cause again, I looked at it and I'm like, it didn't, it didn't dawn on me, but once you mentioned it, I'm like, Oh my God. Yeah. It's like somebody else's arm. Yeah. Yeah. It's like, it's coming out of her chest versus her shoulder. Crazy. Yeah. Wasn't, okay. Well, so here you see painters, painters manipulated the world as well that they saw Mm-Hmm. Yep. Like we do. Yeah. Cool. Yeah. It is also one of those, like, you know, the, the one of those fishing photos, this one is, is in my book, New York, New York. It's, uh, in, on Kent Avenue, Williamsburg, Brooklyn. Uh, that's an area in Brooklyn where a lot of Hasidic, um, Jewish people live. Um, it's, it's when you step in that neighborhood, I would advise everybody to just check it out, just walk around and be amazed about different worlds. That, you know, New York city, they always say it's a melting pot. It's not, we all live in like different segregated areas. We speak our own languages. We only, you know, yes, we deal with a cab driver who has a different cultural. Um, background or you pay the rent to somebody else with a different background. We all deal with each other in a very, you know, um, uh, harmonious or not harmonious way, but in the end we all are separate and one alike, you know, want to be with, uh, people that are likewise to yourself. And Williamsburg is one of those areas. It's like a very Hasidic neighborhood where you see people wearing, um, you know, the attire that comes with, uh, with that religion, I love the wall. I love the wall. That was the first thing that I loved. It's like, this wall is perfect. And then I saw, of course. my actors coming into this stage and, um, actually what you see now, I didn't really notice that it was all happening. Now I'm looking at it and it's kind of all makes sense, but when I take the picture, I'm not analyzing. I'm just looking. I'm here waiting for the right person to come in, which is, and I snapped the shot at the moment that he's on this black square. On the ground, uh, on the sidewalk. And then this, this is the edit that I chose, but in the end, it all makes sense, all these squares, all these geometrical shapes, but then the wall completely like, um, breaking that balance. But, um, you see that, that, that hole into the wall with the white graffiti around it, and then this black, this black line going towards my, my, my protagonist pointing out, I love you. And, um, And yeah, just the squares, the, again, the frame within the frame, you know, the building as a, as a, as a square, the windows, um, where he's standing on the sidewalk, everything makes, um, makes sense. It's all geometrical. Um, but then again, also it's not. And a lot of repeating, repeating patterns and monochromatic. Uh, so you have all sorts of compositional elements going on here. Right. But then like, you know, the, I love you makes, it makes it somehow very poetic. And, um, I, I see people telling stories about this picture. And I'm like, I had like no clue that was going on, that, that you think that I was, that you think what I was thinking, um, I thought it was just beautiful. And then like, afterwards I tried to reason why I thought it was beautiful. At the moment, I'm totally not aware of it. It makes me think of way back when I was in college, when you're in my literature class at analyzing what did, what did the author mean by this? Like, uh, I'm pretty sure it was a good chance that he was being literal and now you're ascribing all sorts of meaning to things that I, that's always been my, my, my, uh, my problem, although I've enjoyed it cause it's fun with, uh, All sorts of things, whether you're dealing with art history, you're dealing with any, anything where you're trying to break down the intent. You don't know what the intent was. You, the intent was likely to make something beautiful. And that's why, that's why I say whatever I think doesn't really matter. Just, you know, just few and tell me what you see. Tell me what, you know, the, the biggest compliment you can give me as a photographer. is that it evokes a story within you that wasn't there. That for me is the biggest compliment. If you come up with something and you're like connect with it in your own way, because everybody carries his own authentic story. You have a story, you have a past, you see completely different things in it. Maybe, you know, you had, uh, maybe you had a friend who was a Hasidic, uh, and, and you connect with that in a different way. And so everybody has this authentic self and views things with that story. And then, um, tries to find connection points that resonates with you. And for me, that is the biggest compliment. If I somehow make a connection. With a visual and it has nothing to do what I saw or what, what I intended or my motivations it's we connect by a picture that I make that is the best compliment. When I see people flipping through my book and I see how they connect with each page in their own personal way, because every time it's a different experience, I feel blessed. I feel like I can connect worlds because you can be from. Across the ocean, and you can see something I made in New York, I make pictures of Tokyo and people connect with Tokyo, a city that I've never been with, and they see themselves, they see certain things that they connect with, it's, it, that's, it's, it's a marvelous thing to be able to connect different parts of the world by just the picture. Yeah, great. Before we get into this, just on what you just said, it's interesting to say, when people go and they travel, they, uh, they frequently, Are drawn to photograph the things that are different. They're the Eiffel Tower, the Mount Fuji, uh, just something that they don't see at home. And yet the majority of what they're seeing, they're not even possibly paying attention to is how many similarities there are. As a species, we do the exact same things over and over and over again. It just, we dress them differently. And people think they take that little window dressing and they're like, Oh, they're, they're exotic and they're different and they're weird or they're beautiful or they're this or that. And the reality is they're just, uh, again, they're your cousin who you hadn't met yet. Absolutely. I so, so, um, I love what you say because for me, that is the, the power of. Um, what I do, um, or what any, uh, uh, what I, I hope a lot of artists do. It's basically, um, the issue with different cultures that you have in photography, like for example, Japan, but we can, we can get into that. Maybe if we look at the photos from Japan is basically, um, we love to see how different other people do. Like you, like you just mentioned. And for me, that is kind of like emphasizing the fact that you have an us and you have a them, and we are different, And what I wanted to like, um, what, what I want to reach with my book is I see I show daily stuff because daily stuff is what we do every day. What we didn't put it in the book is for example, the women's March, because that was kind of a timestamp. It had like, you know, a political charge and that's not daily life. So basically I want to show the things that we all do and that connects us because everybody has to do groceries. Everybody has to run to try to get the subway or the bus. Everybody brings a child to school. Everybody eats. Everybody loves their loved ones. And so there's so much stuff that unites us that makes us universal beings. And that is something that I want to like, you know, transcend through my images, the things that we can connect with on a human level. And I think that's one of the things where street photography does such a good job, because it, again, it does, it's focused just in general on the mundane and the pedantic, which is not the stuff, not the, uh, the outrageous. And again, sometimes the outrageous might get in there, but the majority of it is just that you might see on any street in the world. Well, this is a beautiful shot, by the way. Thank you. And that's the beauty of street photography. It's, it's seeing the beauty in the mundane, which is something that we Desperately need when our timelines are being flowed with misery and, and, and sorrow, and it is very important to balance that out with something that, and that's why I'm so happy with my, my three year old daughter right now, who sees beauty in everything. Like a crack in the sidewalk is something that she's amazed about. And it, it reminds me, it teaches me to keep on seeing beauty because otherwise you can't handle, can't handle reality. And, and, and, and it's so much part of reality. This picture is the cover of my book, uh, New York, New York. And, um, I, I felt very lucky that I photographed this because a lot of people, when they see these pictures, like. Where are you? Where is this? And, um, if you look very careful, I'm actually standing in between two subway cars on the Manhattan bridge. And so the, the metal things is very, um, uh, very steampunk, uh, environment. Um, the metal you see are basically the two train cars connected with this like enormous strong, um, Uh, how do you call it in English? But anyway, so I'm seeing the, the light was beautiful and I'm basically, the train was standing still on the, on the bridge. I was being bored. I was taking pictures through the window. I'm like the train stop. Let me just go outside in between those cars. And then, so that's when I took this picture. Um, it it's a, it's actually an old picture. This is kind of, it's, um, I actually took this with like one of those small, um, Canon, um, power shop, uh, cameras that I was having. So, yeah, so, um, I love this picture again, cause it's like a frame within a frame and then looking at something very familiar, which is the skyline of downtown Manhattan and you see the Brooklyn bridge, which is of course an icon, but what is the most interesting thing is that where I'm standing and basically the window that I'm looking from. takes people off guard because it's not something very familiar. And so it asks questions. And I actually have it written down. You mentioned in one of your interviews. Questions are more powerful than answers, which I think it's a great, great quote, uh, that I actually wrote down and have it hanging here underneath the computer because it has a lot of questions when you look at his image and besides the fact that it's beautiful and those questions kind of make it more powerful. Hey, and I recognize it. Quick because when I was, again, growing up in New York, when the subway was super packed, especially in the summertime, when you just like, just people, I used to ride right where you're standing. I go between the cars, which they say, don't do it's dangerous. And, and again, my friends and I would get in and out of the subway. At that spot, you just pop open the little latch. You just jump in, jump back out. You just make sure you're, you're aware. So you don't fall between, but, uh, it was, it was the only comfortable spot on the train was when it's a rush hour. Especially when there's a homeless person, like stinking up the whole car, you need to get out then. Like, you know, you just got to, you got to take it. Yeah. Let's see here. What's going on. Nice. That's um, nine. Um, yeah, it's, you know, these photos also very successful. Cause. I'm very lucky that I sell my art as well. And, um, so this is, this is 7th Avenue on, um, it's a, it's a very, it's, it's a very familiar picture for people who live or for anybody who lives in the city. It's basically the, um, the fact that you check yourself out in the windows when you, when you pass by just to like check. So. But the whole, um, the, the food cart that is like bringing in this smoke, um, I love, I love, you know, I love the light that is kind of like, you know, an, an, an autumn light or a winter light. And, uh, you see like the, this, there's this advertising that says life is better when we're connected. And he's just checking himself out. He's connecting with himself and with nobody else. So they're like these, these little nuggets. that are being pointed out, what I just said, with people who are looking at this photograph, that, uh, that kind of like gives me the cherries on this cake. Um, I'm basically with my camera standing against, uh, against the window, literally like, um, I took so many pictures. If you see like the contact sheets in Lightroom with all the little thumbnails, you see all different kind of people walking in and out of the smoke. And this was kind of the perfect, the perfect image that I managed to capture. But I'm here like, uh, for 20 minutes with my face against the glass, um, trying to capture this, um, this, uh, diptych as they, as they call it in painting, this, this, this, you know, as we say in Holland. So they, uh, I'm trying to think if I'm oriented right. I'm probably not. I just thinking if you go to the, go to the corner there, you take a left walk a few walks you at b and h. Yeah. Correct. That's true. That's true.'cause there's Madison Square Garden, uh, on the right here in this picture. Mm-Hmm. So on the other side it's one block away from B and h, the wall halah of every photographer. Yeah. Ah, yeah. I love this. This is the only picture I took of her. This is one of the pictures I did not ask permission. And I was like scalded and that was the only photograph until she said no photo and I'm still using it. It's kind of interesting to maybe also talk about, you know, what do you do when you're actually not, when you're actually asked not to take a photograph and it turns out to be such a beautiful photo. The color, the colors are wonderful here and this is at the end of the day in Chinatown, people are cleaning up. I think it's a hair salon all the way in the back. They're cleaning up the floor there as well. It's the end of the day. Um, I'm, uh, I'm here photograph and all the colors. It's, it feels like a, a, a golden age painting with those, those bright colors, um, that are coming towards you. And, um, of course these are the basic colors, the red, green, and blues that make it wonderful. But it's kind of interesting because she asked me not to take this photograph and I'm still using it. It's. So did she ask you like right after you, you, you snapped this frame? She looks up, she sees me photographing, she says, no photo. I'm like, okay, so I'll walk away. But I, it's so beautiful. I cannot. So actually, yes, I, yesterday I had my launch of my new book, Tokyo, Tokyo. And somebody asked me about what do you do with the pictures that, you know, people really, you know, are not happy that you photograph them and you're still like, how does that make you feel? How do you? So actually somebody asked like the question of ethics as a street photographer. Every street photographer has his own set of rules. You can be, um, um, you can be the a hole walking around with the flash, taking pictures of people. That, um, you know, that you encounter and using them while they're all like, um, being shocked and or, or, or not happy. Um, so every photographer has a set of ethical rules. What is, when is it right to take a photograph? When is it right to use a photograph? Which is second, another thing, of course, I can take whatever I want to take on the public street. However, using is something else. Then, then you come into like more the ethics of like, is this the right thing to do? Transcribed And, um, I have my rules. I don't photograph homeless people, people who are struggling with addiction, because I don't feel, I don't want to point out people in a, in a position that they didn't choose to be in. So those are my rules. I like, I love to be respectful of my city. When I visit a city, I love to be respectful as a guest. And so I have my set of rules. And yes, I sometimes use a photograph that's in the grey area. Let me say it like that. However, I always treat my subjects with a certain respect. I love to put them on pedestals. I honor the working. I honor the hardworking people because I'm a hardworking person and my mother was a hardworking person. And so, um, I do feel a connection with this, this human being, with this, this subject. Uh, lady, and then I'm kind of like hope to be absolved of the fact that she did say no, but, um, I'm only honoring you and I think you're beautiful and that's, and that I hope is giving me the license to do things. And there's also nothing compromising about the image. Like there, there are people that are, I think that put up images and maybe some, some make it a point to mock people and, uh, with their image. I do sometimes have a little humor in it, but I, I understand what you're saying. There is humorous. If you can have humor, but I'm like, there's a point where there's a difference where there's like something ironic or whatever, that something can be humorous, but when it's legitimately specifically mocking somebody like that, that that's pretty much where I, my ethical, one of my ethical lines, that kind of the people who take pictures at Walmart of like the, the people who like shop at Walmart and you see social media, like a whole collection of like, You know, the ones that stand out. I'm like, It's so lame to make fun of other people's appearances in that way and not seeing the beauty of things. And, um, it's so easy to put people down and to make you see you make yourself more elevated above the rest. Does that make you feel better? No, it does not. So yeah, no, I, I totally agree. There is, there is a fine line between we say in Holland, When you do an eye blink, you blink with your eye as like a kind of like an inside joke that can be humor in it and there's then on the other side, making fun and, um, ridiculous, making people, you know, ridiculous. And, um, yeah, I never do that. I, uh, it's not my style. It's not, not the way I'm that personally. I wouldn't that those are kind of like the ethical things that I just mentioned. Yes, I'm on your side. And so obviously it looks like there's a product. I looked at this at first and thinking to myself, yo, you, you lit this. And I'm like, no, no, it's, it's a movie product or a TV product. It's a movie set. Yeah, exactly. This, this was one of those moments. Um, I did it also with Tokyo, Tokyo, New York, New York. I was on social medias talking about, I'm making a book. I'm, I have an assignment. So what should I photograph in New York? And I got like people inviting me. And then suddenly I got a text. There is a film shoot. Uh, near the Manhattan Brooklyn Bridge area, come down, um, And so I jumped in the cab and. I'm ending up on the street where there's a film shoot. So basically, this is behind the scenes. Here are the extras waiting to be used as extras. And I'm walking around with my camera, um, taking pictures. But here again, I have my picture on a pole, my camera on a pole, high up in the air. That's why I can, you can see the, the camera on the car on the left. I'm actually, you know, the rooftop is in the picture that's reflecting the bridge. And this lady was standing there. Her name is Anita. And, um, she was actually turning with her back towards me. And I'm like, this picture wasn't right. Cause I don't really like that. The center person is like, you know, turned her back around. So I actually like asked her, would you mind. Looking, looking this way. And I'm thinking, she's, you know, it turns out she's actually the owner of all the muscle, the old cars that you see in the, in, in the frame that they use. Well, so, so she's basically, her business is renting out these cars for movie productions. And she's one of the extras, but she owns all those cars, which is amazing. And, um, And she looks a little bit like uncomfortable, which I kind of like. She looks a little bit like as if something happened, but she's just uncomfortable being photographed, being the center of my stage. And, um, which kind of like makes the picture perfect in my opinion. And then the light in the back, this big, I relied, uh, they're probably shooting an inside shot in this tent. This is the set of, um, Oh God, what's the show called? Totally lost it, but so this is a behind the scenes and, um, yeah, I made her my, my, my star role in, in the movie that I was making here. And, um, yeah, I love this whole it. And again, a lot of questions, like you mentioned, like a lot of questions would make it so perfect. Like, what is this? Why, why this old, like, is this, what time is this? What, what, like, what I, yeah. So like you said, are you like putting lights in there? No. It's a good question. You mentioned it twice now about having your camera on a stick. What kind of camera are you using? I'm using a Sony Alpha seven three, that's what I'm using right now, um, which has the wifi connection doesn't work. Perfect. I don't really like the app that, that I use, but, um, I kind of sometimes, um, use it in order to get like a more, uh, birds I view, um, scenery makes it more cinematic to be honest. Yeah, totally. This is a very cinematic. It was the, uh, you can't get to the best of my knowledge. They, uh, I like, I am won't do that for you. You can put it up on a poll if you want, but, uh, you're not going to see what you're getting, but it's nice. What I used to do is, uh, have like a five second or 10 second timer and then like grow up in the air and hopefully you have a little screen that you can still see and then click. Do you have like one shot or maybe three or seven, if you do the, you know, the tick, tick, tick, the, how do you call it, that you like take all different kinds of like lightings. Right. All right. Bracket. Yeah. Cool. Let's see. I think that's it. Yep. Okay. So that's the end of, at the end of New York, New York, New York. So let's move over to Tokyo. Let me find that. Tokyo. That's a, that's another folder. Yep. There we go.