In-Depth with Toby Binder: Life & Lens of a Documentary Photographer

In-Depth with Toby Binder: Life & Lens of a Documentary Photographer

Welcome to Meet the Streets, the go-to podcast for street and documentary photography enthusiasts. In this episode, we dive deep with Toby Binder, a remarkable documentary photographer based in Germany. Toby shares insights on his long-term project in Northern Ireland, documenting the impact of Brexit and the enduring divide between communities. We also explore his work in Germany during COVID-19, highlighting the struggles of immigrant children. Gain valuable perspectives on balancing personal projects with commercial work, the importance of building trust with subjects, and the challenges of maintaining a documentary career while raising a young family.

00:00 Introduction to Meet the Streets
00:15 Meet Toby Binder: A German Documentary Photographer
00:47 Toby's Long-Term Project in Northern Ireland
01:48 The Impact of Brexit on Northern Ireland
04:39 Challenges and Realities of Documentary Photography
08:22 Toby's Journey into Photography
20:35 The Belfast Project: Capturing Divided Communities
24:14 Exploring Belfast Through Photography
33:59 Staying in Touch with Brandon
34:55 Tensions During the Parade
36:24 The Kids' Project in Germany
37:16 Challenges of Homeschooling
37:53 Life in Duisburg Hochfeld
39:06 Migration and Growing Up in Germany
49:20 The Reality of Poverty
01:01:25 Balancing Family and Career
01:05:33 Final Thoughts and Future Plans

Thank you for listening! If you want to see the video, go to my youtube channel street photography mentor.
To see my street photography you can go to my instagram @keithmpitts or go to my website keithpitts.com. There you can also get info and sign up for my street photography workshops in Paris.

Transcript

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Welcome to Meet the Streets, a podcast for street and documentary photographers. In today's episode we meet Toby Binder, an outstanding documentary photographer based in Germany. Come back each week, and meet another photographer from somewhere else in the world. Now, Toby. So welcome back to the next edition of, uh, meet the streets. Today, you're going to meet Toby Binder. He's a really outstanding documentary photographer that you're going to have to know more about. And, uh, today you're going to start. So he's based in Germany and I'm going to ask, I'm going to pass this off, Toby, please introduce yourself. Yeah, thank you very much for having me here. Uh, my name is Toby Binder. I'm a German documentary photographer and, uh, I'm, yeah, I'm mostly focusing on long term documentary series. So one of my current projects I have already working on now for more than six years in Northern Ireland. And actually I will go back to Ireland just in two days. So this is maybe the most important work so far that I've been doing. That's interesting. So actually, before you get even into your, your background, uh, with, with Northern Ireland, how did, how is, uh, how is that these days? Obviously, as I was growing up, I used to watch in the news, I'd see the, the, the divide between the North and the South was so incredible. And again, I've got my, my in laws are My kids and wife have Irish passports, but, uh, so I, but I have not heard anything. So I think whatever the, uh, the peace accord they had a long time ago has been holding, but I recently heard something about Brexit having put some stress on that. What is your, uh, what is your take from on the ground when you're over there? Yeah, to be honest, I mean, the reason why I started this project in Belfast again was, was when, um, when the British decided to, to leave the European Union and Brexit happened. So I decided, uh, I want to go to a place, you know, where the communities, uh, really, I mean, most of the Irish Catholic people, they voted to leave in the European Union. Most of the British Protestant people, they decided they want to go with UK and just leave the European Union. So I thought it's interesting to have these two strong communities that really voted in very strongly together to go to Belfast, because you have this very close together. I mean, I think in the UK, there are many places, little villages, voting almost completely to leave or, uh, other communities they wanted to stay, but in Belfast, you have just very door to door. So I decided to go back to, to Belfast when, when the referendum happened. And the idea was to, to document what, what will happen in between the referendum. And then when the referendum really, you know, when everything is done and they finally left the European Union, uh, which was quite interesting. And, uh, then I decided just to keep on going with it. with this project, because I had so many good contacts then. And, uh, um, it was just a very interesting time. And I think it was like you said, I mean, there was a concern that, um, this Brexit decision will threaten the peace agreement. And, uh, but it was also, I think economically, uh, many things changed. And, uh, generally, I think the peace was very strong link to, to the economic situation, because if the people are somehow doing well, then there is no reason to. To grab a weapon, so yeah. Yeah. It seems to be that way in in every country, obviously. Yeah, obviously. Yeah. Yeah. And it was again, the back in ancient Rome, it was bread and circus. Give people something to eat and give them, entertain them somehow and once they, uh, they forget that you're over rewarding them and, uh, and threatening their safety as long as they're entertained and fed. Yeah. One more very interesting thing. I mean, it's always somehow, uh, said it's, it's some kind of religious conflict because, you know, it's easy to say, okay, these are the Catholics, these are the Protestants, but in the end, it's more, to me, it's more like a social conflict, you know, because it's just, uh, if you, if you tell the poor people, you know, You're poor because you're Catholic and the Protestants get more and you can somehow can cause trouble. But if you see there are poor people on both sides and if the economy is growing and everybody's doing well, then there is no reason for for a conflict, actually. So, yeah, let's hope we get back, we can get back to that or at least maintain it. Ah, scary stuff. So, uh, how long have you been, uh, A couple questions. One is, uh, is photography your main source of income? Are you just a full time photographer or do you, uh, like have a nine to five and then you do personal projects? No, I mean, I'm, uh, of course I'm, I'm focusing somehow on, on this documentary project, but, uh, yeah, I mean, I'm, I'm shooting a lot for magazines and newspapers and more maybe than cause I told you, I'm more interested in longterm documentaries, lots of time, but it's very difficult to get that published or to get it paid at least. And so, I mean, the main income is just shooting for newspapers, magazines, short, uh, short Documentary short stories, portraits, uh, that's cool, though. So it's nice so that you're fully immersed. That's, that's your, that's your whole wife. Basically, again, that was mine for forever. Once I got into photography, I did nothing else. So, yeah, I guess a lot of people, there's some really great photographers out there who just. Have a regular job or whatever that job is. And then they, uh, they go out and pursue photography as a passion project. So like people watching this, I'm sure what's going to are going to be those people that might want to make the transition or whatever. But now there's just whatever reason again, the financial security, which keeps them, you know, Attached when people say, oh, you're a professional, so you must be good. Not necessarily, no, not at all. No. I mean, uh, Yeah. And then sometimes, you know, the last time when I, when I was in Ireland, I, I spent the last night, uh, just, uh, my flight was early in the morning and, uh, I didn't wanna pay the hotel for one more night, so I just slept at the airport. And one of the guys I met there was like, wow, I thought you were a famous photographer, so a hotel. And I'm like, yeah. I mean, if you can save money, I, I still try to, yeah. Just, you know, not to spend that much money because it's not so easy to, to earn the money with photography. So it's, uh, but I think everybody has to find his own way how to, how to deal with it. Uh, I have no family, so you need more. I mean, before the kids were here, I, I think I didn't need much money because I, yeah, I don't need many things. So easier. But now with the kids, it's a little bit more difficult and, uh, Yeah. And again, it's, uh, and the, the specific genres you've chosen, there's, I think people just automatically assume that if you're working as a full time photographer, you're, you're going places you're working for, cause you've done work for Lamont, you've worked done work for Stern, you've done work for, uh, for some really prestigious, uh, publications. But from, from what I know, they pay nothing. So like to keep up, you have to work a lot. Yeah. I mean, yeah, you should, you should work a lot. But, uh, you know, I mean, they don't, uh, you don't get an assignment every week, so it's, uh, difficult. You, I mean, either you should get more assignments or you should get paid better, but it's somehow difficult. I mean, yeah, because it was both the last two years, I also tried to get a little bit more into, I'm, I'm not shooting a lot for NGOs, you know, because they. This is somehow the topics are very similar. I mean, uh, and I mean, the kind of photography is maybe not exactly the same and, you know, not the depth I want to have in my work, but sometimes it's good, you know, I mean, you, you get access to people and to topics and, um, yeah, I really like to, to shoot for them because I know that they're doing something good and they pay sometimes better than, than the magazines or the newspapers. So it's somehow. Yeah, just trying to figure out how to keep on going and not doing something completely different. Yeah, uh, so what was your, your, I was gonna ask this and then I sidetracked myself what I thought was a better question, but what is your, uh, can you, your back, like, how did you come into photography? Like, what, what was your, uh, like, were you inspired by something you saw? What was your, your path? I'm really sorry. This is a very boring story. It's also not like, uh, when I was five years old, my dad gave me, not at all. I mean, I started studying, I mean, when I was five years old, I wanted to become a football player and not a photographer. So that's something that didn't work out. So, uh, I studied graphic design at the academy of art in Germany. And, uh, when. When I started graphic design, you know, we had to do this layout and designing magazines and, um, most of my friends that just grabbed the material to work with and to then make beautiful designs. But I didn't find the material. I wanted to work with, so I had to produce the material myself. So I just went to the photos and then did the layout with the photos I took. And finally, I just realized it's much more interesting to take the photos and not only work with the, with the pictures, because yeah, I just realized that I'm, I like to be outside in the streets. I like to be in touch with people. I, yeah, I don't want to sit all day long on the computer. And, uh, and, uh, my teacher also realized that. And then he. He was the art director of the, um, uh, FSET magazine, which used to be really famous and a big magazine in Germany in the eighties, nineties. And, um, he sent me to, to a photographer in New York. So that was the first time when I came to New York in 2003. And I made an internship with a friendly, and, uh, he really, sorry, with, with who? A frankly, you know, the, he, he used to work a lot for, for the Magazine and, uh. I think, I mean, I think he became famous as a as a real brilliant portrait photographer, but he also did a lot in the streets. And, uh, I think he actually put me on that track. You know, he just chased me all the streets of New York. I don't know how many miles I walked every day. Just walking through the streets and taking the photos and uh, Then I realized that this is really what I want to do. And that's cool. It reminds me of, uh, uh, Joel Meyerowitz, his, his, uh, what he says that he was doing when you were basically, he was doing layout. He was working with the photos. And when he started taking the photos or making the photos, should I say, uh, he had more fun and he just said, that's it. I'm done. I became a, I mean, and nobody ever thinks about him as anything but a photographer, but that's not how he started. Yeah. And you know, sometimes my friends, even they, they made some jokes on me and they said, okay. We finally, we believe you, you're not even have a film in your camera. You just use the camera to get in touch with the people, you know, and to, because I really, yeah, I realized I like that. And I mean, sometimes it's tough and it's difficult, but it's maybe the interesting thing about it. You never know how people will react. And if you have a camera, they will react. I mean, there always happens something. And, you know, I, I always, um, I mean, till today, I love to shoot with the Mamiya 645, the big camera. So I don't want to hide the camera and shoot somehow. So people don't realize, I mean, I, I really love to, to know them that, that I'm around with the camera and it's maybe more difficult to get quick, with snapshots. I mean, um, maybe that's also the reason why I finally ended up in long term documentary is because, uh, of course the people react when they see the camera and maybe not in, in the way you want it for your photos. So it takes more time to spend with them until they forget about the camera. And then you can take the photos you want. So maybe that's described somehow the way I'm working now. Yeah. That's cool. Yeah, I was gonna one of the questions I was gonna ask is, uh, what do you so do you primarily shoot with uh, The the Mamiya 645 or you uh, do you balance between that and digital or other formats? I I try to to stick to the to the Mamiya. I mean sometimes it's It takes lots of, uh, you have to, you have to go back to convince yourself that you really want to shoot with that camera because it's so much easier sometimes to, to use another camera. And, um, yeah, sometimes I have a little digital camera as the backup. And then I realized, okay, you, you just take the backup camera because it's so much easier. You know, you have a quick auto focus you, but in the end it's, yeah, it's, it's worth it to, um, to use the Mamiya and to maybe sometimes, you know, You miss a photo, but, uh, on the other hand, you get a much more beautiful photo because you use that camera. And I mean, it affects your way of working so much that you really have to tell yourself, okay, now you should only with that, with that camera. I remember I used to shoot with more formats and I used to have medium format, but a certain tool for a certain job, you bring that in and suddenly again, you're not blending suddenly. Okay, you've announced your presence and that you're that you're meeting business with this camera. So it's going to people act differently with that in mind. Versus, uh, you just taking a quick little snapshot with, uh, whether it's the Leica or Canon or whatever it is. But, so how do you, I, not so much, I guess, how do you, uh, find your subjects, but more, what I'm really impressed with, and we're going to, it's going to show in the work when we show it. But how do you get so close because there's the old cap, Robert Kappa saying that if your photos aren't good enough, you're not close enough. And that's not necessarily just physical distance, but it's actually emotional connection. And you seem to have this, both the physical distance and emotional connection down. Like, so how do you just walk on to some, how do you get to meet people that are going to let you in? What's your special secret there? I won't tell you. No, I don't know if there is, if there is any, any. any way to describe it, or, I mean, I just try not to, to hide myself. I try to be the person I am, and I try to be when, you know, when I'm working a lot with young people, so, and I think they really have a good feeling if you, if you're really honest, and if you, if you just come and want to take some photos and then disappear again, or if you're really interested in what you're doing, and if you, if you spend enough time, I think time is maybe the, the most important thing. I mean, you, you need to, to be aware. It takes lots of time to. To build some kind of trust and to, to get this, what I said before, you know, they, because if you go there and then tell them what you want to do, even if they're okay with it, they, they don't completely understand what, what's happening. So if you tell them you want to shoot photos, I don't know how many photos I have, but you know, when they're posing like this, like a team, so I take these photos and then I. Don't disappear. And they're like, ah, you took your photo, but you're still around. And then, yeah, I want to see what's happening. And so I spent lots of time with them and sometimes they even say, Hey, you're still around, but we don't do anything. Isn't it boring for you? And I tell them, no, it's exactly what I'm looking for. I want to see what you're doing. And so. When I come back, I bring them the little photos as print. So, and then they can see what I'm doing. And I think this somehow creates trust. And I just try to, to be honest from, from the first moment on. And, uh, yeah, so it's kind of relationship somehow happens. Yeah. Anyway, again, it's, it's. It's, uh, the patience and the trust that's, uh, again, I think the lacking in a lot of us that are, uh, not long term documentary photographers, like if you're a news spot, news guy, you go in because a lot of times because you're, um, uh, I tend to like to be dropped into a place. I'm good with not knowing anything and, uh, quickly assessing, get my shot. And then I'm out. It takes a lot of patience. I remember I was speaking to Andrea Bruce. Who's a famous, uh, you didn't, you know her. Okay. So a long time ago, I was chatting with her and I was like, so what is like to really. Get into the whole, uh, long term documentary thing. What do you think I need to do? And she's like, uh, she basically just find anything and I stick with it for a year. And say, if you can stick with something for a year, pretty much regardless of what it is, you have a chance. Of course, whether you still have to know how to use your camera, you've got to be able to talk to people. And so there's certain things that are just a given, but the idea to be able to go back to something I think is, is a special skill to be able to hold your, no pun intended, be able to hold your focus, your mental focus on anything for a year is, is, and keep it consistent. I can, and one year in a way, that's, that's not something that we all have. So you do seem to do it really well. Yeah, but I mean, to be honest, the, the more long-term documentary projects you start, I mean, you, you start one and you wanna keep on going with it, you start another one. So it's some kind, uh, some, sometimes, uh, just difficult, you know, to, to decide when to go back to which places and, uh, yeah. And, and sometimes you get in situation, in situations, for example, I. I just went to, uh, to Iraq to Kurdistan five weeks ago, six weeks ago, uh, to, you know, to work on this, um, because the genocide on the Yazidi people now happened 10 years ago by, by the ISIS. So I thought it's, um, it's a good time to go back to see what, what's the situation are 10 years after that genocide. And one of my good friends here in Germany, he's a Yazidi and he's from there. So I had good access to, to the people and, um, but I didn't have much time. And, um, I went, you know, there are still so many people living in the camps. I think more, more than a million people, uh, still living in camps and, uh, uh, and I went there and the people were really friendly and so much hospitality, but sometimes they told me, well, you know, so many people already came here and nothing changed. And in a situation like that, you really feel bad because, you know, okay, they give me something. They, they let me take the photos, but. In the beginning, they, you know, they, they had to hope that something will change with these photos taken and, and now I come and, so. You get this feeling of responsibility, you know, if my, if, if I take a photo of somebody, I really, yeah, I take the responsibility to do something with this photo and not just take it and disappear and be happy that I took a beautiful photo. I mean, if you take the beautiful photo, you have the responsibility to use it in the sense of, of these people. This is sometimes difficult. So I think this only can happen when you really. work a long time on a project. Actually, that's one of the best pieces of advice. And I've heard in forever, like the idea was it's against so many people. Well, again, we all want to go out there and, uh, and take a picture and you hope that you, you take the picture that somehow positively affects the world. But again, more often than not, it's not going to. And then, uh, a lot of people don't continue on with their projects. So you, you, you start By trying to gain some trust and then people believe you and then they they give you access and to their personal lives And then you uh drop the project and do nothing and all you've done is make it harder for the next person who's going to Go through with it and then do something. Yeah, so it's it's it's rough the responsibility to start I think to your point if you're going to start something you should finish it and uh, And if you can't when you're looking at your your project if you don't You Imagine how you're going to finish it and what it's going to do. Don't even start it. Yeah. I mean, to be honest, in the beginning, sometimes you just don't know, but at least you have the aim to, to, to know what you want to do with this project. And, uh, uh, but sometimes it just, yeah, it just happens that you really understand yourself, what you can do with the project. when you're working on it, you know, because when I started the Belfast project, for example, I told you, uh, the idea was somehow, I mean, I've been to Belfast before and I knew that, uh, the similarities of, of the daily life, especially if the young people are very big, I mean, but, um, when, when I came back to Spain, with the background to know that they politically really wanted something completely different. And then I came back and I took the photos in both communities and I saw again that they are so similar, you know, and the problems they have are similar. The lifestyle they have. I mean, they have, they have the same haircuts, they have the same clothes, they drink the same beer, they, the unemployment is almost the same on both, the crime is the same on both communities in the working class parts. So the idea of the project, I realized, okay, the idea of this project has to be to show these people that they have more in common than what divides them. Because, you know, there are always people telling them, those are, those are the same people. the others and they are so different and this is just not true. So this was somehow the mission of this book, you know, that I made that. Yeah. But they can see that they're just the same people. Yeah. Yeah. That's crazy. Yeah. It's, and it's the worldwide problem. Everybody wants to believe that they're the, uh, the problem. And if we just eliminate them, everything's going to be what's called a sunshine and roses. Yeah. Yeah. But unfortunately we find out that we're all just people and we, we, we care, we will find a new problem. Yeah. And that's pretty crazy, you know, because, uh, You know, there are still the walls somehow dividing these communities and, uh, there are some gates you can go through. I mean, at night they close it, but, uh, during the day you just can go through. But I realized I'm, I'm the only person or some tourists maybe, but, uh, I'm, I'm the only person going through. So the, the local people, they stay in their community and, uh, I went back and forth several times a day. Thank you. You know, I was shooting with these kids and then I realized, okay, I can't work here anymore because nobody was around. So I went to the other side and, uh, several times the kids told me, Hey, everything easy here. You can, you can work here and we are cool with it. And, uh, but be careful, don't go to the other side because. They will steal your camera, maybe even punch you. And I told them, Hey, I was there 15 minutes ago. And you know what they told exactly the same about you. So it's, uh, yeah, that's great. Uh, so again, with that in mind, let me, uh, let me pull up the share screen thing. And that's, yeah. Your website not what I'm looking for. Let's talk about that in a minute. Okay, there we go. Let's start with, uh, that's Where does WeMarker start? Supposed to get the, the, this killed me with one program is blocking the other program. There we go. Okay, do that. And we're good. All right. Cool. Okay. So, uh, so this is from your, uh, your project, BeeMockers, which is you, you've created your, is this your first book? The first, uh, the one and only book. Well, again, so again, before you have a whole series, that's what, uh, you got to start with the first and looks like you've started off well. So tell me about this. Yeah. I mean, I told you about the project that I actually started, uh, somehow the book project really after, after the Brexit referendum, but I was, uh, I was in Belfast before, um, because maybe I tell you a little bit how I got into this UK, uh, interest and, uh, when I made my degree at the art academy, I made a project about football in Scotland because I love football and I love Scotland. So I thought it's a good idea because I realized the passion of the Scottish people for football is so crazy. I mean, uh, Now, during the Euros, just here in Germany, you see it again, and I made this experience already in the 90s when I was in Scotland for the first time. So I made a project about football, the passion for football of Scottish people, and I ended up very often in poor communities and working class neighborhoods because, you know, the kids, they really just played in the streets because they didn't have to do anything else. And, uh, it was really in the 90s, it was still some kind of, uh, way out of poverty for young kids, uh, to, to become a foot professional football player. I mean, I later, I, I mean, you know, this from South America. I mean, I mean, everybody knows it's that this is a way out of poverty in South America, but I didn't, I didn't know that it's an, it wasn't Scotland really, uh, very similar. Uh, so I met many young people, especially in this poor environments. And, uh, I kept on going with the football topic, but also, uh, I realized, okay, it's interesting to, just to, to show growing up in, for, for young people in what, what does it mean to grow up in these, uh, in these neighborhoods. And, uh, then I went to Belfast, I think the first time in 2005 or 2006. And this photo is from 2006, actually. So it's quite a while ago, but, uh, I realized when I went back in 2016, that, uh, not that much changed. So if you see these photos, it's very difficult to say if I took them in 2004, five, six, or 10, 10 years later. So that's why I also included some of the older photos in this whole series. And when I, when I decided to make a book and, you know, I started with the editing, I realized, okay, I have many of these street pictures and, uh, things happening, but it could be maybe boring if you have a book and only some kind of similar photos all the time. So I realized I need some photos, you know, to break this a little bit up. So I took, um, on the, I took one more group of photos, just, you know, the, the, to show the neighborhoods. And I tried not to have any, People on the photos, I just wanted to show the environment, how does it look, what's the city like. And then I took also these close up portraits to really break the other theories and, uh, Another reason was that people told me if I see somebody, I can tell you if he's a Protestant or a Catholic. And I said, Hey, this is not possible because, uh, people, I mean, they, they just look the same. What I said before, I mean, they have the same haircut, the same clothes and also some kinds of similar faces. So I decided, you know, just to took very straight portraits and, um, yeah. I think you can't tell, you can't tell if it's a Protestant or Catholic boy. I love that again. So a lot of times, again, really close up portraits have their own look and stuff like that. But the, uh, the, the knock on them sometimes, depending on what is that there's no context. So sometimes you want the context just to be their face and that's that. And in this case, it's great. You're using, you're, you're knocking out the context just to prove to people that you can't tell. Again, it's a great use of, again, not just. Taking, uh, like a pretty picture, but doing it with an app with a great purpose in mind. Very cool. So this is obviously, yeah, this is for example, one of the photos, uh, just from, yeah, from, from the neighborhoods and, uh, just playing around. Yeah, it was not a serious fight. I mean, they are friends, but there's always some, you know, just, uh, making fun of each other and then starting to, to fight a little bit, but it was, uh, nothing, nothing serious. Yeah, and the, uh, But I just like the movement and the, you know, And the, uh, and my older sexist, uh, terms, just boys being boys. Yeah. Beautiful. Yeah. So that's what I said before, right? I mean, uh, in the beginning they just post and post for the camera and then I just let them do their things and I was walking around and I'm standing here and there and just Taking my time. And maybe this is also, you know, sometimes I feel what I said before, if you, if you wish to have a, maybe a small, quick camera autofocus and shooting quickly, but, um, that's what I said. What I think fits really to my way of working, you know, I mean, I have all the time I need, I, I don't need a quick camera. I, I was walking around. I could think about how I want to make the composition. And I had to time just to move in the, in the right direction. And then it's just, I only need one photo per second because I, I waited and I thought, okay, this is the moment click. And then I don't need a small camera. So, wow. Yeah. Again, I can, things come to mind. I mean, again, the reality and the, uh, and your thoughts can be anything, but so what's the background to this? Well, I mean, uh, some, somehow you can say Belfast is the city of fires because you always have somewhere a fire. And, uh, I don't, uh, sometimes I met the guys of the fire brigade in Belfast and I told them, Hey, you guys really have a tough job because it's just burning somewhere all the time, because, I mean, you have the, uh, in July, you have the big bonfires, you know, on the 12th night of the 11th, they have the big bonfires. Um, uh, and when, when they. Build the bonfires. I mean, this takes several weeks. So most of the young people are building the bonfires. And then when they do it, they also, most of the time they have some small fires somewhere, but just some rubbish is burned or, yeah, uh, but, uh, very often you just have kids and they are bored and they start a fire somewhere. So, but this one was really just, um, a garbage fire. And, um, the boy was, was in front. Yeah, it's a powerful shot. Okay, so I'm not even going to ask whether they're Protestant or Catholic. I have no idea. Yeah, yeah. Just, uh, just wondering. Actually, this is the shot that's, uh, behind you right now. Ah, right, yeah, yeah. That's cool. Yeah, and a few things to process in that. Yeah, I somehow like the symbolism, you know, of this photo because you have all this barbed wire and you have many fences and walls in the city. I don't know how many times I just kept on walking and then there was that end because there was a wall, you know. Sometimes these neighborhoods are really so close together, uh, or sometimes even little in class and you have these walls around and as a pedestrian, you just can't keep on going because You have to go back and all the way around the wall if you want to go to a neighborhood. So many fences and walls and lots of barbed wire and I like this one, you know, because of the the scooter. I mean the Typical thing for kids, so the bottle of beer, you know, it's all very just kind of symbolism for growing up for a kid in a very rough environment. And again, and walls and barriers do not make for best friends. You can have everything in common, but you put up some of this, the wall, again, if you put up, create a wall where you can't see through, it's almost worse that you can see through it. And it's got barbed wire and it's impossible because now you're just, you have a picture of the person you don't like. Yeah, that's crazy. Yeah, this was during a parade, you know, when they, or more March and when the Catholic community remembered of all the people killed during the troubles with police or military violence. So, they just made March and I took that photo and the girl was just standing there. Again, fences and sometimes even the motorway are used, you know, to separate the communities because here is the Catholic community on one side, the Protestant community on the other side. So, yeah. So, yeah. Again, great shot. And I recognize this is, uh, was this one of your entries to, is it Portrait of Humanity? Oh, right. Yeah, yeah. Yeah. Yeah. Yeah. Yeah. Beautiful. Yeah. So it's so great, you know, because I'm still in touch with the boy with Brandon and he, I mean, I took this photo in 2017. So he's now seven, seven years older. So all the guy now, and, um, but I'm still, you know, when the photo is ever used, I still tell him if it's okay. And I show him photos. It was last year, it was in a, in a festival in Italy and they printed a huge billboard on it. And it was just in the middle of town. And I took a photo for him and I sent it to him and he, Oh, wow, that's great. So that's somehow what, you know. Just, yeah, staying in touch and tell, tell them what, what happens with the photos and um, yeah. That's great. Yeah. I'm sure again, he was just thrilled to think, Hey, I'm on a huge billboard that, that makes your average person just going to feel famous, like, Ooh, this is a, how cool I could, you've got what's good. Michael Jordan on this billboard and you've got me on this billboard. But it was a quite tense situation and I took the photo because you know, it was when, when the Protestant community made the parades and, uh, The police just blocked a whole neighborhood of Catholic people and they weren't allowed to go out. I mean, there was a lady and she just wanted to go to the other street to buy some milk. You know, an old lady, the police told her, no, you can't go there. And this is somehow, I mean, this causes some kind of tension because she was like, Hey, I want to buy my milk and I can't go there because you're blocking the street because they have the parade. So, and it was obvious that this lady wouldn't start any trouble. Yeah. Sometimes. And yeah, I mean, especially the young kids, they, for example, in this situation, um, later they started to throw some stones on the police and then quickly. You know, you never know if something will happen or if it's quiet. And I mean, I think it's getting better because last year, for example, when I took this photo, and I think even the year later, it was lots of police and many people of the Catholic community came to the police and were like, Hey, we don't accept this, that they're marching in our, in our street. And, and last year when I was there, I was really surprised because they had the parade at the same street and it just kept on going and the Catholic community that just nobody appeared. It was just. They just ignored it somehow and I think maybe it's, it's getting better and, uh, calming down a little bit. I mean, yeah. So now let me, this moves to your, uh, your concurrent project, I guess. So this is, uh, this is your kid's project. Tell me something about it. Yeah. To be honest, I mean, and this is sometimes always interesting that, uh, you need some Pressure to do something and then realize, okay. Maybe I should have done this earlier because, you know, I never thought I will find a story or topic I'm interested in in Germany because I just thought, yeah, it's not many interesting things are happening here or not, you know, things I really want to, want to work on. And then during COVID I couldn't travel. Uh, and I was somehow locked, locked in here. And, um, I, I decided to, to do a project with young people in Germany. Because homeschooling was some kind of big topic here because, you know, in Germany the schools were closed for a long time. Um, and Most families of the middle class, they somehow complained about it, but, you know, they had the education to, to help their kids. They had the computers to, to make the, the online classes and all that. But, uh, if you go to neighborhoods where people don't have these possibilities, I mean, the kids, they just didn't go to school for two months. And I met, I went to Duisburg Hochfeld. Which is, uh, I mean, Duisburg is in this industrial area in western Germany, close to Netherlands, Belgium. And, uh, I went to a neighborhood, uh, I think 96 percent of the under 18 year old have migration background. So very mixed area, of course, also a very poor area, red light district, prostitution, many gang crimes, so very rough area to grow up. And then these kids couldn't go to school for such a long time. And some of these kids, one guy showed me a text message because he was very proud that he was in touch with the teacher even during that time. But, uh, the teacher just, you know, when actually school started again, he sent a message, Oh, is there our lessons today? And she just wrote back. Lessons for two weeks already again, but you just didn't show up. So, you know, for, for those kids, it was so difficult because it was a real cut and some just didn't go back to school after, after this COVID thing. So I decided to work with these kids and to show this difficult difficulties and growing up. Um, actually very similar to what I've been doing in, uh, in Belfast and, um, although different background and different history, but, uh, actually the, the conditions were very similar and the kids also are very, very, very similar. I mean, the stats are different. Yeah. Just looking at that hole in the base of that, is that a basement window or like, I don't know what's going on there. Yeah. I think it's the window of the, you know, of the basement, but it's very, I mean, yeah, many old houses, not good living conditions. And uh, Um, the kids I've been working with, uh, this is a community. I think most of them have, uh, they are somehow ethnical, uh, Turkish, but, uh, from Bulgaria. And, um, you know, when they come here very often, they, they have to live in, in really poor houses. Very, very poor. and lots of people in not enough space. So even if they would have the technical possibilities to do this homeschooling, it wasn't possible because I mean, if, if there are five people in a room, they can't online lessons. Because, you know, because in the flats, it's so narrow, everything, the kids are outside most of the time. You know, I've seen, obviously, countries even before the, uh, I guess, still it's related to, uh, immigration for centuries and whatnot, but I, I can think of, the odds are so stacked against you at this point, even though they might be marginally better than the place that you left, but then, your home, your new country, which doesn't seem to, after they welcome you in, suddenly, what's going, you're kind of stuck. I, I, sections of New York where I grew up, The, uh, the exceptions kind of prove the rule. Like every now and then you'll find somebody who is brilliant and once they are, and they, they fight all the odds and they get out and they become, uh, their lives become amazing. But if it was, uh, if it was so common and easy to do with just hard work a lot, well, you wouldn't remember just those few people that did it. Everybody would be doing it, but they, uh, they. You know, but there's, there's some, uh, the interesting thing I've, yeah, I realized it because I met some of the guys and you, you know, If you work a lot with young people, you realize somehow the structure of a group is always somehow the same, you know, they're, they're always sometimes Those guys who are really, you know, in the beginning, they tried to provoke you a little bit, you know, just to check you out, if you can deal with it, then you have the more quiet ones, and then you have one who is really smart and understands from the beginning on what you want to do, and he tries to support you somehow, but maybe he is not the most important in the group, and then you have many just doing what one guy said, so the structure of these groups are very similar, and I met, uh, here also, uh, Some, some of the guys really smart kids and, uh, they told me I have to get out of this environment because it's so difficult to, you know, to, to achieve what I want to do while I'm here because you know, these influences are very bad. I mean, if you, if you see that you can make a living with the illegal things. And it seems to be very easy. Of course, it's more difficult to, to focus on, on, uh, on, on something different and focus on school or, yeah. And there are some of the, and then they, they really, I think you just, you just need to support them somehow. And I mean, um, there are some youth clubs and there are really people trying to take care of the kids, but, uh, To me, it was very interesting for me. It was more in the beginning. It was a story about growing up or in the beginning, it was about this COVID time. And then I realized it's much more, you know, actually it's about, um, yeah. Migration growing up in Germany. If you have migration background, you know, still very difficult for just kids to get access to, to education, to get, access to better education, that Germany is still somewhat struggling being a country of migration. It's for me so amazing because, you know, when I talk to these kids, some of them told me exactly the same that my friends when I was young told me about their experiences. And, uh, this is quite a while ago now. not that much changed. So it was quite, quite surprising. I mean, all this, you know, double citizenship topics. I spoke to a guy and he told me, well, yeah, of course I feel Albanian because my parents are from Albania. I have Albanian blood, but I am German. And when I'm away from Duisburg, I really miss it after four weeks. And if you hear a guy saying this, I mean, then you understand that he doesn't have to say I'm Albanian or I'm German. I mean, You can be both and that's completely fine. I mean it's, uh, yeah, and I don't know, I mean the US is completely different because the US is this country of migration. But I think Chuck, I, trust me, it could do much better well, again, the US for being a country that, that's the irony of the us. Let's go. So it's a country that it would have, it wouldn't be a country at all if it wasn't for immigration. And yet you've got these strong, strong winds of, uh, of, of anti immigrant, uh, rage to people. Just, uh, it's, it's nationalism, which becomes, again, it's a thing obviously Germany knows about nationally. Every, every country at some point knows something about nationalism. But the, the U. S. is, I think, the, uh, the weirdest, country in the world when you think about its actual origins and that how anti immigrants certain factions of the U. S. are. Like, they, they forget that statue in the harbor of New York that has a plaque basically talking about, like, the entire thing is there. talks about it, about immigration. You, yeah, so. And I think it was also shocking somehow, you know, that you have this kind of racism and anti migration by people who migrated themselves, but just, uh, maybe one or two generations before. So, uh, and you have these, you know, Especially the neighborhood I worked here used to be very popular with Turkish people before, but now, you know, they've been there for a while, they made their living, they build up businesses and they made some money. So they are now able to move to better neighborhoods. So the new arriving people come to this neighborhood now and you have this kind of racism from, yeah, it always goes, you know, one step further. That's crazy. That's crazy. Well, shocking. I mean, it's yeah, I guess you don't have to look far back to recognize where your particular group, uh, whoever, whichever group that was, was helped out by let's go to, uh, and, and, and just, again, using what I know the best in the U S let's go. People think, uh, well, they're just coming because they want our stuff. Well, partly, partly true because their home has gotten so bad that people forget how difficult it is. So a lot of Americans don't like to go on vacation for more than a short period of time because they miss their home so much. So imagine you're saying, hey, I'm going to leave permanently everything I knew behind, the language, the culture, the places where I had my first date, which was this, that, my grandparents, the cemeteries, all of that, to go to a place where I might not even be welcomed, but it's going to be better than that. Then what I currently have, that shocks me, the courage it takes to do that. And you know, it's called people think that they're just coming because they want to be opportunists. Yeah. And in the end, you just have to, I hate it. You know, if the people talk about these people, because you just have to, I mean, maybe there are some people and they take benefit of, of the German social system. But most of these, I mean, the parents of these kids, you know, I talk to them and ask them, Hey, what, what are your parents doing? And they're really working hard. I mean, some have two or three jobs, you know, just to make some kind of living. And so it's always difficult if you, if you try to talk about a group of people, because you have to, yeah, you have to see the individual and, uh, yeah. And it takes, and this mindset takes, makes it take longer, because you, within every group, every group, whether it's, they're marginalized, they're a very similar cross section of people just with less money and less opportunity. So you'll get some really, really smart people, but you, society at this point has already assumed the worst of them. So even if they have the best intentions, they're They're already looked at as if they've already committed the crime. So a certain point that you might as well just take the benefit of committing that crime because you've already been found guilty. So why not do it? It's like the old thing with, uh, your relationship and your partner constantly thinks you're cheating and you're not. So not, so now you're not only getting blamed, you're not even getting the benefit of having the fun of cheating. So you might as well start to go to go cheat. That's your example. I just, I find that as a coalition, I'm lucky that was, I don't have a relationship like that. I've been very, I've been in relation, I've been in relationships like that, but instead of going to cheat, I just got out. But it's, it's again, that's where the, that's where the similarity breaks down because you can just get out of relationship. You can't get out, just easily walk out of a situation where society's painted you into a corner. Yeah. And you see, I mean, just what you said before, I mean, you hear, hear that a lot, um, you know, they, they seem to have these fancy clothes and they have money to smoke. How could this be poverty? Because you know, I told the people, Hey, this is, this is poverty in Germany. And you know, if you see the numbers, uh, more than 50 percent of these kids grew up in poverty, what is somehow defined as poverty and to say, yeah, but this is not poverty. He ended. Okay. I mean, then change with these people, you know, there's this strange kind of understanding in Germany because we are this rich country. And of course, it's not the same poverty you'll see in other countries probably, but, uh, business. This is German poverty, and the situation is difficult for the kids, and you know, they, they spend all the money they have spent for, for these things. And, uh, this is also sometimes difficult if you have to, yeah, or you see what kind of understanding, uh, many people here, here have of, uh, the situations, uh, of others. If people just think of, uh, say poverty on the scale of, uh, Say parts of India or various countries in Africa or wherever, and they just have these things like, oh, that's what poverty is. No, in a certain way, if you take their situation as a percentage of their income versus the mean, Yeah. And what, what can you, again, do in that particular society? It's the U. S. I hear people constantly saying, Oh, these guys have this and they've got that. They're not really poor. Like, like you said, okay, then go switch, live their life for a month and let's see what happens. Actually, going back here. Yeah. Yeah. Obviously, what's good, they, uh, this, there's, there's obviously some things that would say that this isn't Ireland, but I look at this picture and I could totally just imagine if I could, uh, kind of slums almost anywhere. I can imagine in Ireland, I can imagine let's go parts of the U. S. I can easily, what's good thinking. But now that you mentioned Germany, again, I would have never thought Germany. Okay. Yeah, these are the things that the, uh, the biases we have in our heads about how places are. Yeah. They don't have, they don't have, later it wasn't right. Yeah. Yeah. But again, I could have easily said, like, flash this picture and then just say, okay, where was that? And I might go, it could have been in England. It could have been, uh, London or wherever, I guess there's a bunch of, uh, places in London or in England that I can't think about the top of my head, but I've seen pictures. So, but yeah, it, it, you can transpose this. to so many different spots and yet the, uh, the outcome is the same. And looking at this, to your point earlier, whether it's Catholic or, uh, Catholic or Protestant, if you were just to show this, you can't, you're not going to say, oh, this kid's poor. You're not going to say he's rich. You're not going to say anything. You're just going to say he's a kid. Yeah. Yeah. I mean, the, it's, The, the idea, or I, I always tell them, you know, to, to try to look somehow neutral to the camera because I don't want them, you know, especially if they're the friends around and it makes'em more fun. And they ha so I tell them not to, not to laugh or not to just looking neutral to the camera, but even though it's never neutral, I mean, they have so much, uh, emotion or something. I mean, if you look at, at the face, at the eyes, there is still some, some message in it. And I like that, you know, I mean. The neutrality is maybe that they don't smile or have any, yeah, any expression I tell them to have, but there's still so, so much in this. Yeah, the eyes give it all away. So you can have somebody smiling and they can still look like they want to kill you. And somebody can not have a, not have a smile, but their eyes will make them look happy. Yeah. This kid's looking like very introspective. I, I, again, he, he's telling you something and no particular idea what. But you can see that there's something going on. There's nothing vacant there. Yeah, and this is, uh, you know, I just tried to, to give a feeling for, for this environment. And you, you know, when I came there the first time I was, uh, I tried to get an idea of the neighborhood myself because, uh, I grew up in the South and I've never been in this, in this area of Germany. And, uh, When I came here, I, in the beginning, I didn't really understand what's happening, you know, because you have lots of anti fuck graffiti and you have lots of, uh, then you, then you have this, uh, Germany flags in the windows and you don't understand if, if these are You know, German people that have been living there for centuries and they're like, hey, now all these other people are coming here and this is still Germany, or if it's people coming here and saying, okay, now we are part of Germany and so it's very difficult to understand what's what's going on because it's such a strange mixture of, you know, People, cultures, political influences. And then, yeah, so I thought this was a very confusing and interesting moment here. Yeah, back to, let me, uh, get, all right, so. And also maybe for to get back to the last photo, you know, the similarities to Ireland, you know, this kind of, uh, you have in the, especially the Protestant communities, you have lots of union checks and, you know, just this showing this is ours. And this was some kind of similarity now with this Germany flag. So what, what is the reason to, to have a Germany flag in your window? You know, it's just like, uh, maybe showing that we are, we are still here or something like that. And so this is on your website under your project. So you have again, uh, your commercial, I think we're hidden. There we go. I can move that. Yeah, that's cool. I can't move that. So, and the portraits and year about and stuff. Again, and of course your shop here. So people can go and buy your book. Question is, I love the idea that you've got, uh, the signed and numbered prints. Are these, uh, Are you knowing that was your prints? Are you there? These are shot with uh, film on your mimiya. Are these silver prints or are they what's going on? Giclee or? No, I mean this was uh, to um, I mean, you know, when I published a book, I had to, to make a crowdfunding campaign. So I, I put it on Kickstarter and you know, you have to, on Kickstarter, you have to do this little packages, what people can buy to, to finance the book. And, uh, I had these, uh, one, one package was just the, the book and, uh, the very small ancient prints, you know, just to have something more than just a book. So these are, uh, just inkjet prints. Uh, okay. But, um, but there's, yeah, if you, I mean, I have some server prints on with my gallery and of course they're much more expensive and maybe not that many people who want to have the photo can afford it. And, um, I realized many people want to buy a print, but they don't, you don't, they don't see it as kind of art for them. It's just like to having a photo they like and to, uh, I know my, my gallery probably doesn't hear that, uh, or doesn't like to hear it, but I like it with people just, you know, I mean, I want to actually, I want, um, the people I photograph, I want them to be able to, if they want to buy my photos, they should be able to buy it. And I know they don't have that much money. So I think it's good to treat. I'm sorry. I didn't mean to talk to you. So you're going to, so you're, uh, you're represented by a gallery in, uh, in Germany. Excellent. So what's the gallery? It's a gallery, Clara Maria Sales in Ddo. Okay. So actually let have, right now I have an exhibition there, so if you make it to d you should, uh, you still have two weeks to go there, Beautiful. Uh, let's go to actually, uh, so in again, just a bunch of, uh, of interesting projects going on, and I guess, are most of these projects completed or are they still ongoing? Yeah. I mean, there are also some, uh, all the projects that have been just commissioned, you know, I mean, uh, this was one of the most amazing things I've done, you know, uh, being one year with one of my, or with my favorite football club was funny. This is also the, you know, the children of war a little bit up again on the left side. Going down, down, down. One more. Yeah, yeah. I know one more here. This is about, uh, this is interesting. It used to be an assignment, I think 10 years ago now, or maybe even 12 years ago, about an NGO in Germany, uh, providing medical care for children in Afghanistan, because, um, they can't be operated in Germany, in Afghanistan. So they bring the kids to Germany. Provide all the medical treatment they need and then they bring the kids back to their families. So this was an assignment and I just followed this NGO now for many years because I think it's really interesting to show how, how support also can, can work and to, I mean, how you can change the lives of families when, when their kids come back and are able to walk again or just healthy. And again, if you can change one life, again, that, that, again, splits off and it changes many lives. Yeah, let's go to your Instagram page. And so hopefully we'll see you're going to get, uh, make some good new followers and let's get people who, again, anybody who watches this is going to have to be inspired by you because what your work aside from your work is beautiful. Your, your, your hows and your whys are, uh, are gold. Like you just, you've opened up some really, really good insights. And, uh, I think people need to see this. This is very cool. Yeah, this is also one of the guys. I hopefully we'll see you again next week. But this is also some of the interesting thing, you know, I'm still in touch with them on Facebook or, um, but you never know what will happen when you're there. So sometimes it's really, you see an improvement and then you come back next year and everything is gone again and it's just up and down all the time. And yeah. Interesting. So this is part of that. Uh, it's okay. She's obviously from a show, but yeah, obviously it's not from a show, but it was in a show. Yeah. So yeah, the, yeah, again, very cool. Yeah, I can keep going on. But anyway, those of you watching, definitely go. Toby Bender photography on Instagram. You have to check them out. You have to and give them a follow. Let me get this out of here. Go to stop sharing the screen. So we're back then. So I'm kind of possibly a last note. We were talking about, uh, again, we're both, we're both fathers. My kids are grown or mostly grown and are getting closer. Yours are young. Uh, just what you were saying about, it's going to have the effects this has on your, um, on your choice of projects and how you execute them. Could you just go over that a little bit? Yeah, I mean, it's just, uh, it just changed because, uh, before my son was born, I just had, you know, the complete freedom to, to do what I mean, I had to take care about assignments and jobs and had to organize it somehow. But despite of that, I had the complete freedom to, to go wherever I want to go. And for how long I want to go, uh, for example, when I, when I, When I was in Iraq, what I, what I said before, just a few weeks ago, there was this incident between Iran and Israel, you know, when they, when, when the things were flying above our heads and the airport was closed and I was like, Oh, okay, well now the airport is closed. Hopefully I'll be able to get out again. And, you know, some years ago I would just have been like, okay, so if I can't fly tomorrow, then it's just fine. I speak, or it's nice here. It's interesting here. There are good people here. I can work here. But now you have this kind of pressure. I have to, I have to get back because, you know, I have to take care of the kids again. And it's just much more difficult to organize everything. And, uh, yeah, I mean, I'm glad Tom, my wife is dealing with the situation because she, she knows me for so long now that she knows what I love to do and what I have to do. So we're somehow organizing it, but it's much more difficult than if you have not the responsibility. I mean, you, you told me about your dogs and you said, okay, this is somehow limiting your. Your freedom of moving around and it's, it's just probably very similar. So, yeah, but even amplified by a lot, because again, my dogs, I can get somebody, I can go to like a website and get some trusted house sitter. Maybe for kids as well. I don't know. Maybe I should, but yeah, try, try getting that past your wife. Yeah, no, but yeah, and then you have the, the, the, the idea that what's called, there's now something that you beyond you, like, oh my God, I've said back in the olden times, if it's just my wife and I don't come home because something bad happens, well, then she can mourn me and that's that, but then, and move on. But now when you've got kids involved, now that's, you need to help and you feel obligated to see them grow and you feel obligated to help with all that stuff. So yeah, I did. Anybody that can manage a, uh, a documentary photography career and, uh, and a family successfully, because many people have tried and very, and many have failed. Like they, they've created a family and then they've ended up messing it up so bad because You can call me again in 10 years and I'll tell you about it. Well, my fingers are crossed, Oskar, that you don't go the Eugene, that you go the Eugene Smith route and your fame and your, and again, how important you become, but that you have a much better family life. No, but to be honest, I mean, you, you always have to, I mean, you have to be aware of, of, you know, The situation of your priorities, right? I mean, um, I think you need the same honesty, what I said before. I mean, I always try to be honest to the people and I, so far it really brought me to where I am and I'm happy with it. And you also have to be honest to yourself and to know, to, to say, okay. I mean. They are the kids and, uh, I love them and I love to spend time with them and maybe I would have, I could have taken more and better photos without the kids, but I don't want to, you know, I don't want to compare it to each other. I don't want to, I mean, I'm happy to have the kids. So it's, um, Yeah. I think you have to be honest and happy with your situation because if you're not happy with it, you have, yeah. What will you do? I mean, it's uh, yeah. A choice has to, at that point, a choice has to be made. Who knows which is the right choice? You're going to make the choice and whatever happens, happens. So yeah. Well, Toby, again, thank you so much. I really appreciate both the time that you've, uh, you've given me to, uh, to get to know you. Uh, again, this is on fairly short notice as well. And, uh, so, again, your work is outstanding. I can't wait. I'm looking forward to following you and just seeing what your next projects are. I, uh, I'm pretty sure what's going in the near future, what's called, uh, Wee Markers is going to end up on my bookshelf over there. And, uh, yeah, who knows what's going to, we, we will seem to, uh, find a way around Europe a little bit. It's because you, you, again, you don't have the freedom that you had. So who knows, at some point we might end up in the same spot and it's going to be great to meet you. Yeah. No, thank you very much for inviting me. And I told you I wasn't really prepared, but it was such a nice conversation. And I think it was, yeah. Again, there's nothing to prepare for, just a matter, there's no, there's no trick questions and I'm only asking you about what you, and so therefore, if you don't know you, then we have, we, then that's a problem. But yeah, again. Yeah. Thank you so much. What I'd like to do is just talk and just as if we're meeting, because we are, we're meeting for the first time, so this is, these are the things that interest me. So, and again, in real life one day. Exactly. Again, if you find yourself in Paris, because obviously, and France just in general has so many avenues for, uh, have you been down to Perpignan? No, never. I mean, I'm not really good in going to all the festivals, you know, and to, uh, Yeah, well, Perpignan is amazing, though. If you go, yeah, if you go to one, again, Paris photo is really nice, but it's, again, it's, it's, it's all over the place. It's kind of overwhelming, uh, because of just how many beautiful, but Perpignan is stellar. And for what you shoot, I think you could probably show at Perpignan, but again, it just, For the inspiration and the, uh, and just the camaraderie, everybody that is connected to your field, everybody is down in Perpignan. Yeah, no, no, I know. I mean, it would make sense. But you know, when I had the book, I tried to do some, I was at Paris Photo at Photolon and I tried to, to go to all these festivals because I had to feel okay, now I have a reason to be there. But now it's also about, yeah, it's again, you know, the time and now to decide time and money is always the resources of time and money. So I have to decide, you know, Do I keep on going with photographing my projects or do I take the week to go there and then I just, okay, then maybe photographing is more important. Yeah, true, true. Again, very valid point. Or maybe not more important, but it's more fun for myself. It's more, but I want to do it. Oh, cool. Again, I'm hoping to be in the same spot as you one day and we can, uh, we can chat in person. Yeah, let's stay in touch. Again, have a great day. And, uh, once I figure it out, find smoothly eggs out of this program, I, uh, I bid you adieu. Thanks very much. Thanks a lot. Take care.