David Collyer’s World: An Intersection of Photography, Healthcare, and Humanity

In this episode of Meet the Streets, we engage in a captivating conversation with David Collyer, a distinguished English documentary photographer based in Wales. Keith, delves into David's impressive career, from his initial foray into photography with a Zenit camera to his recent accolade as the 2021 Royal Photographic Society Documentary Photographer of the Year.

David offers an in-depth look at his creative journey, including the profound experiences that shaped his work. He shares the compelling story behind his powerful COVID-19 photographs that landed on the cover and in a large spread within the Guardian newspaper, taken during his time as an anesthetic practitioner. Listeners will also gain insight into David's personal projects, such as the poignant 'One Woman's Journey,' which profiles the life of a transgender woman in Wales.

Tune in for thought-provoking discussions on documentary and street photography, the interplay between personal and professional life, and the ways David's work challenges societal norms and sheds light on underrepresented communities. This episode is a must-listen for photography enthusiasts and anyone interested in the human stories behind the lens.

Thank you for listening! If you want to see the video, go to my youtube channel street photography mentor.
To see my street photography you can go to my instagram @keithmpitts or go to my website keithpitts.com. There you can also get info and sign up for my street photography workshops in Paris.

Transcript

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Welcome to the next edition of Meet the Streets, a podcast for documentary and street photographers. Today we meet David Collier, an accomplished English documentary photographer based in Wales, with a very interesting backstory. Now, David. Welcome everybody. Today we have the, uh, the privilege of, uh, of talking to David Collier, who happens to be the, uh, the 2021, uh, uh, Royal Photographic Society Photographer of the Year, among many, many other things. But again, that one, just royal Photographic society just has such a, a cool sound to it, especially as a, as an American I might be living in France with the raised in the us the Royal Photographic Society just sounds really cool. So, uh, beyond that, uh, please introduce yourself and like get just a little bit of background, and we're gonna go obviously a lot farther from there. Sure. Hi, I'm David. Uh, David Collier. Um, I've been a photographer for many, many years. I, I started off, first of all in my early teens, bought my first camera in 1982, which was a, you know, the classic zen that everyone, everyone bought at that time. Um, did a gardening round in, in my local village. Um, earning enough money to buy it. I, I, I came from a family that didn't have, you know, massive amounts of money, but I had lots of affluent friends who were all going out and, and sort of buying the latest cannons and, you know, AV ones and a ones, I think at the time. And, and one, one friend whose dad owned an advertising agency had an A one, so he, you know, he was like the, the local photographic god. Um. But I managed to scrape together enough money to buy a, um, A NSE. Um, what I did have though was I had the privilege of being, uh, the son of the local newspaper editor, uh, which at the time was the biggest daily, um, local newspaper in the country. And I think they had, uh, I think they had two or three full-time photographers and a picture editor working, working for the, for the paper at the time. So I got to hang out in newsrooms and newspaper dark rooms, and I spent a lot of time out with the press photographers learning how to take photos, learning how to develop film, learning how to put together a story. Um, and my love kind of built from there really. And, and I, I always tell people that if I'm good photographer, it's because I've grafted at it. I spent a long, long, long time being a very, very crap photographer, you know, trying to be something that I wasn't really trying to be. Trying to be an artistic photographer. Um, whereas actually really sort of deep down inside is what I am is I'm, I'm a storyteller, but I'm a documentary photographer. Um, and, and you know, it just, it wasn't really until I was sort of well into adulthood that, that it began to click and, you know, sort of 58 years now, I was, after I won the, the documentary photographer of the year, I, you know, every time I do a talk to people, I make this joke that it took me 35 years to become an overnight success. So, uh, it is so funny. And now I'm the father of a photographer as well, so really it's kind of gone full circle. My, my son who's currently in New York, um, taking photos is, uh, did photojournalism course at university in London and now works at Goldsmiths University in their photography department. So. Nice. That's cool. Yeah, my, uh, oddly enough, my oldest daughter, who I never thought, uh, I was gonna have anything to do with anything I've ever done. Has, uh, taken an interest in photography recently. So, uh, it is lovely when you see it come out. Mean, my, my youngest is, uh, he was 17. He is a very, very good musician and, you know, I'm, I'm an average averagely okay guitarist, but a complete muso. You know, I'm a music obsessive basically. Um, so he, he's kind of in hot house down that route, but he, uh, yeah, he, he plays guitar and based to quite a high standard. So, so do you have, you have two kids? Yeah, I've got two boys, Frank, who's the 17-year-old, and Ned, who is the 24-year-old. Nice. Yeah, so the, uh, my kids, both of them are actually good at music. Like they're, uh, they seem to excel at that, which I don't have the faintest idea where they got that from because, uh, neither, uh, me nor their mother has a single, like, I try again. I, I'm, I, I, my goal is to one day, uh, get good enough to be considered a bad photographer, a bad guitarist. I'm a. I'm not three chords. Yeah. Yeah. Three chord is all you need. Yeah. I I'm not good enough to be considered a bad guitarist yet. The, uh, yeah. One day it, it'll, I've got more guitars than, like, I feel bad for them because what I do to them can't be considered playing. But, uh, but one day I have, I have a good time doing it though. I used to pot a house. My kids, when they were babies, I would put 'em in the cradle and I'd sit there and play Neil Young songs to, they'd be like, under a year old having the needle and the damage done wailed at them. Oh, very cool. Seems to have worked out, have done them Any significant harm. I should be Oh yeah. Again, one of them when ended up as a photographer and the other one's a good musician, so they're, they're, they're a good, I must have got something. Right. So again, that's, that's great. So you started off, uh, young was good and you had a, a good, uh, good role models and, uh, immersion in the whole thing. Yeah, it was just a really good environment to, to grow up in. I mean, and there's something really magical about newspapers, I think. I mean, it's something, you know, sadly we've lost. Now true. Very few people buy newspapers, but you know, you not only did they give you a much broader sort of spectrum of the news, because you'd actually go through and you'd read a long form story or you'd look at a photo essay, you know, the days of the classic color supplements at the weekends, you'd sit down and see what Don McCollum was shooting in Africa, or you, or, you know, the, the, the current sort of photojournalist of the day and the, and the big stories. Whereas now we don't, you know, we look at everything on our iPads or on our phones and, you know, we live in this crazy age where we look at one story and then the algorithm feeds us the next story that they think we'll be interested in, and we get fed news. That tends to go along with our confirmation bias. So, you know, and I think that's, that's one of the reasons why politics has become so polarized, is that people will only read things that that affect. People were exposed to very, very little, that actually sort of rocks the foundations of their, their belief system. Um, and there's a photographer over here called Brian Harris, who was the, um, the head of the photographic department in the independent newspaper when it started up in, in the eighties. And I read something that he put on social media the, the other day where he had done a talk to, I'm being interrupted by one of my three cats now. Okay. Um, so he'd done a, he'd done a talk to, this happens a lot. Uh, he'd done a talk to a group of people at a, at a camera club or I think it was a camera club, some somewhere up in the sort of the Midlands of England. And he said to people, right, how many people here. Buy a newspaper and barely anyone, I think like two people put their hand up. And this is something that I've replicated when I've done talks to, to groups and, and, and got the same results. And he said, so, okay, so if you're not buying a newspaper, where are you getting your news from? And everyone's response was that they got their news from their tablets or their phones. So he said, right. So how many of you will actually sit down and read a, an in-depth geopolitical, uh, analytical piece that's 1500 words, 2000 words about something that's happening on the world stage? And nobody does because all we do is we read the headline and then we read the first paragraph, and then we scroll onto the next thing. And we're all so ill-informed really compared to how, you know, the, the, the mass demographic was, you know, even up to 20 years ago, I think because we just don't gather our information in the same way. And, you know, that's, that's one of, in some ways with photography, there are more ways to get your work out there, but the real quality places to put your work are gone. And I think that's a real shame with the way the way the world has, has changed really. Yeah. The, uh, that, that the idea that these, uh, algorithms just feed you what you want. Again, as you mentioned, an information bias or, yeah, it's definitely, I think putting the, uh, greasing the wheels or greasing the skids of, uh, of making everything go down because. If you want to believe that the Earth is flat, once you've, uh, you searched for that a couple times in Google, suddenly what's it's going to start or, or YouTube, it's going to continue to feed you things that it thinks you want, 'cause it wants you to stay there. All that really, they're not trying to democratize, uh, information. They're trying to, to get, get ad revenue. And so the longer they can keep you on there, they're gonna tell you whatever you wanna hear, uh, with, with newspapers, and I, I read this New York Times for whatever, whatever anybody wants to read, read it. But, uh, I'm still a time fan and, uh, yeah, unfortunately I'm sitting here in, uh, in Comia, France, uh, outside of Paris and I don't get the New York Times, but I do get it on my phone and I do read the, the long stories. You find stories? What's that? Uh, you didn't even know were happening. That was the beautiful thing about that, uh, exposed to exposed tab. Yeah. Whether it was a, a newspaper or National Geographic or what, or time or whatever, whatever it was. Wherever you were getting your information from or looking at your photos, they put the, they put it in front of you and you saw that's what you had to look at. So you, yeah. You were, you were exposed to a broader spectrum of things that you might otherwise have seen than you would've otherwise have seen. But it opened you up. Now, if you like one thing, you're only gonna get that one thing and you, it's, it is focusing people in a way that, not to use a, a photographic pun here. Yeah, absolutely. But it's, it's, um. Was gonna say. So I was having this conversation with a friend of mine the other day who is a pharmacist. Um, and, you know, my, my day gig is, is working in healthcare, so I'm, I'm an anesthetic practitioner. Um, so, you know that, that that's what I do to pay the bills. Whenever I get that classic British question, what do you do? I always say I'm, I'm a, uh, I'm a photographer who works for the NHS, you know, um, but we, we were having a conversation about the Covid vaccine, and obviously there's tons and tons and tons of information on, on, uh, on the Covid vaccine online. Most of it has absolutely no basis in science whatsoever. And, and it's, and it's grounded in conspiracy theory. And he said, whenever he gets anyone who comes into his pharmacy and asks him about the safety and the efficacy of the Covid vaccine, because they've read lots of scare stories online about how dangerous it is, he always says to, says to them, go away in Google. Can cucumbers kill you? Because within half an hour you will have, you know, 1,001 different ways that you can die from, you know, being exposed to or eating a cucumber. And, and that's the problem with, with the way the internet works, is it feeds you and feeds you, and feeds you exactly what you want to read. Right? Yeah. Again, to to good again, briefly down that road just a bit further, my wife had, uh, always talked about like thinking our, our phones are listening to us and I was like, oh no. It's probably just because you're, it, it again the algorithms which figure out all these complex little things and it figures out where you want to go. No, I'm actually that. After having said that for a while, it started to dawn on me. Obviously they listen to you 'cause you can't say, for them to say that it's not. Then when you go like, uh, hey Siri, or, uh, whatever Android does or, uh, Amazon's thing, then it wouldn't answer you. It's obviously listening. I think what, and I think what's interesting is how effective that form of information gathering is now in that it will listen to you and within a couple of minutes it's feeding you adverts that are tailored to what you've been talking about, whereas. A few years ago, it would take a couple of days for it to happen. Now the classic, you know, it was one of those sort of almost like an urban legend that, oh, the phone listens to you. You know, it, it's, it's listening to everything I say and it's feeding yourself. Maybe, maybe, or maybe you just look for a new bed because you need a new mattress. But my partner is a, is a cardiologist, uh, cardiology specialist nurse. And a couple of years ago, you know, she was getting incredibly stressed out by her job and we were talking about ways that she could perhaps. Find something to do out of work that would de-stress her. And she grew up opposite a quite a famous pottery in this country. And we collect studio pottery. So we were talking about the fact that, um, maybe she should find some pottery lessons and, you know, have a go throwing clay onto her wheel. Within two days, we were getting, both of us were getting adverts on our phone for pottery classes and courses at St. Martin in the fields. Um, art College in Arts University in London. So, you know, it does happen.'cause you know, that's, that's such a, a bizarre, randomly esoteric connection. There's no way it would've been made without it. True. Uh, so earlier you mentioned, uh, that, uh, you mentioned just a country, I, obviously people who are gonna listen to an accent and they're gonna make an assumption, but I, I know where you're based. What your website says, your scissors, you're in Wales? Yeah. Did you, did you grow up in Wales or you, are you Wales now? No, I at all. I'm, I'm, I'm English. Um, so I grew up, I mean, like I said, dad was a journalist, so we, so we traveled around quite a bit. I was, I was born on the South coast, um, but then moved up to near London and then dad's job to, well, we were 10 pound palms. Dad, dad came home in 1972 and when I was five and said, right, we're moving to New Zealand. And so we moved to New Zealand for six years and then we came back. So I spent all of my teens in Surrey, which um, is just to the south of, um, south of London. Um, uh, met my, uh, then moved to London as soon as I could. Um, met my partner, moved to Bristol. Had a, when she came down to university, had a couple of children, and then, you know, sadly we split up, um, as happens. So, yeah. So back, yeah, and I'm, and I'm, I'm in Wales because, you know, they, they say that you only ever move for one of three reasons. Work, women or witness protection. And I moved to Wales for two of those reasons. Gotcha. Yeah, so I, we, because my partner lives here, so that that's, yeah. He's not a Welsh accent, so hopefully was good. The only, actually, the only two, uh, people that I can think of that are Welsh would be, uh, Sean Connery, and, uh, he's Scottish and he's Oh, right. That c Catherine's Ada Jones. Yep. Richard Ton. Uh, Richard. Okay. There we go. Jones. Yeah. Okay. So my, my ignorance is just on full display. It's all, it's all the same once you get outside England, it's fine. So I always know that Wales is another country, but the, uh, the accent and the, I'm unsure about. Yeah, no, it, it is, it's a difficult one. It is always a standard joke that whenever you try to do a Welsh accent, if you're not from Wales, whenever you try to do a Welsh accent, you always sound up, sound like you come from Bangalore North. That's funny. Uh, so. Again, I've been following your work for, uh, for quite some time on, uh, on Instagram. And it is, it's, it's outstanding and you, you, uh, cross genres with you between, again, uh, obviously some street photography, but a lot of documentary music. Uh, and you, you've touched on where some of this is. I I've noticed something recently that I hadn't, and that doesn't necessarily directly equate to photography, but I'm sure there, there's again, no pun here, intended threads that, uh, that they're bringing together. But as a, uh, as a catharsis, uh, what is it that you do? I, I I, I actually guess kind of a loaded question. I know the answer to this, but, um, uh, I sow. I absolutely love sewing. Um, I find it, I, I just, I do find it cathartic. I find it, I mean, I've always been obsessed with clothes as well. I mean, you know, from, um, you know, I, I'm, I still describe myself as a, as an old mod, you know, modernist really. I still ride my scooter and, uh, head off to Brighton with my friends and things and things like that and just, just, you know, and that, and that's kind of part of the, the theme behind my next book, 50 plus. Um, but no, I love it. I mean, when I had my own business years ago, I got really stressed and I took up fishing, which I don't do anymore. But I used to find that when I fished, you don't think about anything else apart from washing the floats. You just sit there and wait for the float to bob under the water and sewing iss a bit like that. Um. And I just wash the needle. And I, and, and it's fantastic. And, and, and, you know, I've always loved clothes and, and I'm, I'm also incredibly practical. I've got, I've got, I was an antique furniture when I, when I decided that newspapers weren't for me, I went and worked in the antiques trade. Um, so I was a, uh, an antique girl, restorer, conservator, and made musical instruments. Um, so I've got very good sort of fine motor skills, um, and getting back into sewing again. Kind of gives me the same sense of satisfaction. I, I, I can, I'm quite good at working out how things work in three dimensions. Um, so yeah, so I love it. And, you know, it's really satisfying being able to walk off down the street wearing a jacket that you've just made or a shirt. But it's, and also I love booking stereotypes as well. You know, most, most people, you know, this, this ridiculous notion that if you're a man and you are, so then you have to be slightly feminist or slightly camp or gay and, you know, which is bollocks really? Yeah. Is bollocks, you know, all tailors, you know, most tailors are men, you know? Mm-hmm. Saddlers mean. It is just one of those, it's just one of those nonsense, stereotypical things. So it's funny thing, do you, uh, again, you're, we're in the same age group? Uh, so we were back in, uh, the seventies. Uh, Rosie Greer, he was a football player, American football player, BA who was on the Pittsburgh Steelers big, uh, monster of a man. He, he used to love to knit. Yeah. I remember. And I remember was when, uh, that came out and just like, again, just shocked everybody. I'm like, Rosie Greer looks like he, all he does is he just hits people and then he goes to sleep and he wakes up and he hits people. No, obviously that's not what a a, a human being does. And so it went seeing behind the screen and recognizing that a, a person that she thought was making their money off of violence basically, really the rest of the day is spent peaceful and uh, and knitting. It reminds me of that line from Hurricane by Bob Dylan. Um, whereas he says, it is my job, he'd say, and I do it for right? I do it for done. I just as soon be on my way. Yeah, that's great. You know, we all, we all have so many different strings to our bows and I've got, I've got a mate called Phil who's ex special forces, and he knit and, you know, he knit partly'cause it helps him deal with, you know, PTSD and other things like that. But he loves it and he makes clothes as well. I, I've got a picture of him sitting at my dining table with a, with two needles and a ball of wool, you know, this. See, and I need to make this joke that he could kill me in 13 different ways, the ball of wool. But it's, uh, but now I'm thinking I'm, I'm kind of in, in the embryonic stages of putting a project together now looking at men who sew. Um, that's small. And, and you know what, and, and also the reasons they do it, you know, whether it's somebody like me who does it, because you've, I've always been obsessed with clothes and fashion and, and just love the dexterity of it, or surgeons or saddle makers or sale makers who are doing it professionally or, or people like Phil who are doing it for, for a whole different type of catharsis really. So, uh. So what I'm curious, so you, you started off in, in with your, your dad being, uh, in newspapers and you started off in, with photography, following along, becoming a, a newspaper man. When did, uh, medicine come in? Like, how did that get in there? So I, and did that come after your, uh, your work with antiques or, yeah, yeah, absolutely. So two, so 2008. So when, when the, the big sort of global, um, economic crisis struck and, and the credit crunch happened in this country, um, HSBC Bank basically pulled the credit facilities from a lot of, um, a small businesses. Uh, and mine was one. So I really went to the war more or less overnight. Um. I got headhunted by a big sort of design cabinet making company, uh, to go and be a project manager with them. Uh, and then they lost big orders as well. And so I was, I'd only been there for three months before I was made redundant. Um, and they, and they, they did the right thing by me. They could've, they could've done it a week earlier and just got rid of me on the spot. Um, but I was the last guy in on, you know, more money than a lot of the other guys that were there. Um, but they, but they did the right thing and, and so they gave me enough redundancy that I didn't have to, to work for, for about three months. Um, and I had two young children at the time, um, and my mum was a nurse, so I'd, so I'd grown up in an environment where nursing was always a thing. Um, and we nursed my grandparents at home after they'd had strokes when I was in my teens. Um, which, you know, in a small house with two siblings, um, was, was quite difficult. But actually looking back on it now was an incredibly rewarding process. Um, and so I had to look for something else to do and I'd thought about nursing. Um. And I wanted to do a job that I thought sort of gave something back to the community. And then I found out about the job I do now, which is called operating department practice, which is a specifically a theater or, uh, or um, uh, based role. Um, and so was, so, so my skillset is kind of across between a specialist nurse and a paramedic. I guess in terms of what I'm, I'm a kind of airway specialist, but I'm, I'm qualified to work in anesthetics on, on the scrub side of the operation with the surgeon or in post-op recovery. And so, yeah, so I, so I do that and, uh, interesting. I've been doing that since, uh, 2009. Went, got a job at the sort of bottom of the ladder in theaters in the local hospital and they, um, they financed me through university, which was, which was great. So, you know, I've now got that, that sort of stable, stable income, which enables me to work on photographic projects, which take 3, 4, 5, or eight in the case of the one that's about to be published, uh, year project. So. Okay. How many projects do you have? How many or how many books? I've always got loads of projects, always. How many books have you published? So I did, so the, the only, the only book I've published so far is the All In A Day's Work, which is the, the book which came out about the, the Covid Crisis. Okay. Um, 50 Plus, which is a book, um, looking at men of my generation, our generation, and how different we are to our father's generations. Is, is, is actually the designs. I got the first draft of it last night from the publishers. Um, so that's coming out soon. Uh, and that's kind of looking at, you know, we, we we're kind of privileged in that we've, we've grown up in this post-war period, um, where we've got the freedom to carry on doing the same things that we used to do. So, you know, if you were a skinhead or an old mod, or a punk, or a hippie, you can still do that. Whilst holding down a serious professional job and Right. You know, there's no, there's no sort of stigma in wandering down the street, you know, sort of stru your fights, you know, fight his clothes and, and, and hanging out with your mates and in record shops and things like that. Which of course, our, our parents' generation, they didn't really have that luxury. So it's always said that, you know, the, the first teenagers were in the 1950s and it's almost like, you know, now, and it tends to be men 'cause women have seem to have to grow up more quickly. But, you know, we're, we're, we're kind of free in some ways to remain teenagers for the rest of our life. So it's just kind of a, a, a look at a look at who we are as a generation of men, really. You know, I think, I think in some ways our, our, our generation are slightly more sort of radical and liberal and, um, and, and trivial in some ways than our children's generation. Are they, they've kind of been forced into another area, era of having to be serious again. Yeah. I, I, I was, uh, reading our, maybe I wasn't reading, I, I, I heard a whole study on, uh, why that is, pardon me. About as, as far as generations that are, again, more conservative, if you wanna say, uh, and what has happened in the, like, what's happening in the world that equates to this and like when there's more turbulence and more, uh, uh, and you've got world wars, you've got all sorts of stuff that seems to, that seems to actually make people again, grow up, uh, maybe again. More conservative or whatever, whatever it is. Yeah. But I think they also live their whole life being scrutinized these days. So every, they live in a gold push wallet. Oh yeah. Everything they do, you know? Oh, totally. There's a camera, there's a camera on them, or somebody's there, you know, with a, with an iPhone documenting what they're doing. Whereas, you know, when we were teens, you could go away days on end and nobody would know where you are. Yeah. And, and I think it's really interesting. I think one of the privileges of youth is that you get to rebel against the older generation, but how do you rebel against a generation who were bouncing up and down to the sex pistols or sk to the specials and, you know, you can't do it because you can't, you can't shock your parents anymore if, if we're this age. You, I always, I always used to joke with my parents that, with my kids, that the only way they could shock me would be by voting conservative and playing golf. And it's like, you know, so far, I don't think either of them have sunk to that level of depravity. I mean, how do you do it? How do you, how do you, how do you shock a 58-year-old who still spends too much money on clothes and rides his scooters to Brighton and he goes dancing around to bands and he, you know. Yeah. I, I, I, I, I get that. My, I grew up in the Bronx in the eighties, and my kids are, uh, they grew up, uh, in, uh, single mother. Uh, she worked two jobs, and I always had a lot of free time, and I traveled a lot on trains that looked a lot different than they do now. Yeah, yeah. There's a whole, like Bruce Davidson did a, a whole book on, uh, the, the New York City subway system in the eighties. So, uh, I didn't think anything of it at the time, but I look back and it, it just, somehow at the time, of course, it's, it's dirty, it's grimy, it's, it is what it is. Just going through it, you look back and it, it's amazing how we can look at things with, uh, again, rose colored glasses. I think of like, uh. Was it Times Square? I hated Times Square back in the eighties. It was, it was awful. But now I look and think, wow, damn, I wish I was a photographer back in, back at that time because now it's got no, it has no soul. There's, it just, it's one big corporate, uh, my, my, my, my classic image of Times Square. You know, if you, if you ask somebody, you know of my age who didn't grow up in New York, what Times Square is, I just think of Dennis Stock's photo of James Dean walking down Times Square in the rain. You know? That's it. Yeah. Well, ion of what it was that is a much better version of a, of a Yeah. The than the reality. Yeah. But what's gonna, uh, the, the reality that I remember photographs so damn well because I've seen, nowadays I see people who, uh, took pictures back then who are roughly my age, and we went through the same thing. Maybe they're a bit older. They, this one guy who's a, who was a cabbie and had a, a camera on 'em at all, all the time. I'm like, wow, what a great idea. I had a camera with me a bunch, but I never really thought to be a photographer. It was, I kind of stumbled into it way later in life. So. It was, uh, I guess a bunch of things missed. So there's a whole bunch of things ahead of me to, uh, to, to document. So it's all good. We have a romanticized version of the past though, don't we? So we look at photos, look at street photography from that era, and the clothes look better. Mm-hmm. And the cars look better and people look more quirky and, you know, so there's that whole, there is that whole sort of rose tinted, it's like an, a nostalgia for a past that never existed. Exactly. Yeah. Actually the, the, the, the movie Midnight in Paris, which is one of my favorite movies, the entire, the whole premise, again, not to spoil this for anybody who hasn't seen it or who who may still wanna see it, is that it's all about nostalgia and the idea that what's gonna, everything every, everybody seems to want, or so many people wanna look back as if. That was the best time. But if you went back to that time, the people in that time wanted to be at another time. So nobody's ever, no one's ever actually happy with where they are. They always wanna be either in the future or in the past, but never seemed to be a present. And that's a whole, the grass is always greener on the other side. Exactly. Being present is a whole, uh, I think that's basically the whole premise behind stoicism. Yeah. Yeah. Absolutely. Yeah. Yeah. I think you, you've gotta live for the day. And I think, you know, one, one of the most valuable life lessons that I ever had was, was being diagnosed with cancer in 2020. And actually that just made me think, you know, you've just gotta get on with it. You've just gotta live where you are when you are and make the most of, uh, you know, what, what's happening in life. You know, there's no point wishing you were somewhere else 'cause you're never going to be, you know, or you're not, you're unlikely to be, or you particularly, particularly when it comes to time, but, um, just, just crack on and do the things you enjoy doing and make the most of where you are and what you've got really. You know, and I, I say that with a degree of sort of white Western male privilege, um, but. You know, he, that's who I am again, federal words, the hand you dealt. Yeah, exactly. Yeah. So the, uh, so when you're out, uh, you. Do you often travel with your camera? Do you, uh, do you only go out, do you grab your camera when you have specific projects in mind? Do you No, no. I'm, I'm rarely without a camera. Um, these days I tend to, so it is, it is interesting because I, I don't really describe myself as a street photographer. I describe myself as a photographer who does a lot of work on the street. Um, so a lot of the projects, you know, particularly sort of portraits of people that I'm shooting, I, I'm, I'm meeting people on the street and I'm, and I'm looking for leads that will lead me into different areas. Um, so I've, I've always got a camera of some sort on me. Um, I became, and I shoot predominantly film, um, um, but I became very, very obsessed with the process of shooting film. So now I've made myself take a digital camera out with me a lot of the time. So, you know, I've got a a, I've got a, a Fuji X Pro one, which I, which I take out with me, which always had the 18 mil lens on it. So, you know, that translates into 28 million old money, I think. Um, so yeah, so I think, I think I have that, that. Photographers think of being terrified, of missing, missing the shot. The day you don't have a camera on you is, uh, is the day you see something. And there's a, there's a portrait of a guy in, in, in the book, a guy called Henry, who is an actor. And I spotted him, um, for the first time in town on a Sunday morning when I was doing the, doing the shopping in the local supermarket. And he was this incredible guy. He is really tall. I mean, I'm six foot one. He, he, he was probably, you know, six foot six skinny as a broom handle skin, tight jeans, pointy shoes, lots of gold jewelry, belt, gold framed glasses, and a, and a gold top walking cane with big H on his belt buckle. And I thought, this guy is absolutely perfect for the 50 plus project. And I didn't have a camera on me. So I raced home, which is about five minutes away in the car, threw the shopping bags through the door, partment, I'm gonna go and find this guy, grab my bag. Couldn't drove around town, couldn't find him anywhere. And then, and then I. About three weeks later, I spotted him again and, and photographed him. So I think there is that thing. You live in fear. Yeah. Yeah. Seriously. But then it's fine. We walk in different ways. My, my son shoots everything, more or less everything on a, on a Pentax six, seven. Um, and he doesn't, you know, he's currently lugging that around New York, but, uh, he doesn't a lot, he doesn't carry it everywhere with him. You know, he's, he's, he's, he's, he's one of those photographers that works very specifically on, on projects. Um, and, and he, you know, he only takes his camera when he, you know, he's, he's shooting something specific Yeah. With a Pentax six, seven. If you're just Yeah. Strolling around like that, by the time you're my age, you'll be, you'll, yeah. It's, it's gonna kill you. That, that, that, yeah. It's a great camera. It, it's a camera that I've always wanted. And for some strange reason, I'm, I'm, I, I could easily have gotten one a number of times I've yet to pull the trigger on that. I know he, he's very lucky. He did when he was at university. He, um, did some assisting work with a, with a photographer called Barry Lewis over here, who's a bit of a legend. He, he was, um, one of the partners in network photographers, uh, the, the photo agency in the eighties just, just won a lifetime achievement award. Uh, and, and Barry lent him a couple of six sevens, which, you know, sort of long term loan, which he's got and he uses. So, uh, that's cool. Yeah. Very, very cool. Yeah, so the people watching, I'm sure that somebody wants to see some photos, not just, uh, two handsome, uh, slightly older men, men in their prime. So we put the glasses on and, uh, and look down here and, uh, try the, uh, screen sharing thing. So. So let me, uh, let me have you narrate this. Okay. So it's ironic that we're gonna start with this one because I didn't actually take this photograph. It looks like you, it is me. Yeah. The, all the sort of Eagle Eye detectives watching. We'll, we'll, we'll note that. That's me. So in 2020 when, when Covid hit, um, this country, I, I was doing what I still do now and, and working in anesthetics. Um, and I was part of the, the team that were intubating covid patients to put them on ventilators in, in ITU and, and also emergency procedures that were, were coming through the operating theaters. Um, now I had this romanticized notion that I was going to sort of stroll around with a liker M three and, and a like meter like Larry Burrows and, and photograph what was happening. But of course, you know, that was totally, totally impractical. Um, I. But I did wanna shoot it on film. So I had a small sort of Olympus XA three, um, which is sort of holding up here, the little sort of clam clam clam shell, which was perfect because it fitted on a, um, a lanyard around my neck or it fitted into the pocket of my scrubs. Um, and it was just it own focus camera. It's got three settings on the front, um, for, for different distances. And, and that was great because I was able to sort of photograph what was happening around me. Um, and, uh, it was unobtrusive. So people at work knew I was a photographer. Um, so, you know, they were kind of expecting me to make some work. Um, but if I'd put A-D-S-L-R in their face, something, they would've acted in a very, very different way. The beauty of having such a small camera was that after a couple of days, it, it was almost like I had nothing in my hand whatsoever. People were so used to the fact that I had a camera on me, and, but also I could, you know, the, the project was kind of turning the camera back on myself and, and my, um, my colleagues. To kind of debunk this myth that we were kind of healthcare heroes.'cause it, you know, we, we were just going to, to work and doing the job that we were trained and paid, paid to do. You know, we've kinda highly, highly trained professionals and, and you know, obviously Covid came with some serious physical and psychological challenges as well, but all of this were kind of putting us on, um, on a pedestal. Di didn't sit well with a lot of us, so I, so the beauty of the little Olympus was that every now and again I was able to hand it over to a colleague and, uh, and, and say, you know, just take a picture of me now. Frame it like this. And, and that that was one such, and I think I'd been in scrubs and PPE for about six hours at that point, and I was literally just kind of sat in a pool of sweat on the floor at the end of the operation. Just a, a non photographic point to that, uh, about heroes. It seems almost without, uh, exception, I've never met or heard anybody who, uh, would be classified a hero by the masses or whoever that's ever e ever, uh, accepted that they were a hero. Like that they were just doing, they were doing a job. Like, uh, when I was in the military, people like during, uh, desert Storm, people are like, oh, thank you for your, and still to this day, I'm, I'm not sure why. But again, the thank you for your service thing, yeah. Handle it just, it doesn't sit with me. I'm like, I, I, I, I don't even know how to handle it. But again, and that's not the same thing as you. It's the idea that what's going firefighters that run into, uh, buildings and, and risk their lives, they do something that we consider heroic, but they're just considering that they're doing their job. And again, that doesn't, it doesn't diminish it, it doesn't make it, uh, put it higher or lower. It just is what it is. And it's just funny that was called that. I'd almost say that as, as a thought that somebody who, uh, considers themself a hero is usually not, not, like I say, somebody an archist as well. Yeah, exactly. So it, it's, again, it goes back to that thing. It's my job, Peter, and I do it for pay, and when it's done, I'd soon be on my way. You know, it was, it was a challenging time and you know it, but it is what we, it is what we do for a living at the end of the day. Mm-hmm. Again, and, and thank God for it. But, uh, yeah, again, not everybody can do these things. This is why they're my favorite expressions is ask for a receipt. And, uh, some people are good at one thing and some, and they hate something else. Totally. I mean, I would say when, you know, we have this conversation when patients come in and it's one of the natural things that you, uh, you ask somebody is, you know, what do you do?'cause we're all slightly obsessed with what other people do. And I hate it when somebody says, oh, I just do this, or I'm just that. And I always say to people, there's no such thing. You know, there is no just, we, you know, we all are a vital cog in the machine. We all, we all do a job that, uh, their needs doing. Right. It's totally, totally true. I couldn't be a firefighter. I couldn't be a soldier. I, you know, I couldn't be a deep sea diver. Um, yeah. Again, and luckily those jobs are filled. Yeah, absolutely. So my, my daughter, again, I was showing her, uh, these things, uh, you sent 'em to me, uh, yesterday and, uh, so I was, I was flicking through and she was looking and she was, uh, that's exactly how she sit. Yeah, it's an interesting one. So this, this, this is, um, one of my colleagues who's called Sarah. And, um, so Sarah had been qualified for six months when this was taken. So she, and, and, and a couple of the other members of staff were really thrown in at the deep end. Um, you know, I, I had a fairly sort of easy transition into professional life. Um, they were thrown into a, into a pandemic, and this photo was taken at about eight o'clock in the morning. And, you know, I'm not saying that it's of the quality of Don Cullen's fa famous shot of the gi, you know, looking straight at the camera with shell shot, but she's got that thousand yard stare on because she's still so, so tired. Um, you know, from the day before and, and, and what she's seen and what she, what she's gonna have to face during the day, you know, what she might face during the day. So this is, this is the photo that kind of changed my life as a photographer, really. And that this, um. So I'd, uh, let, let me backtrack slightly. I've been, I've been doing a project when Covid came along, um, sort of photographing my neighbors in the street because we had to do this social distancing where we had to stay apart two meters. And I live in a, in a terrorist house, you know, typical South Welsh terrace house, about six foot from the front door to the, to the roads, to pavement in, sidewalk in between. Um, and I thought, well, I'm gonna go, I'm gonna go sort of introduce myself to the neighbors and I'm gonna do this project social distancing project where I photograph the neighbors and the Guardian newspaper heard about it and, and wanted to publish it. And then everybody in the country had the same idea of doing something similar. So that went by the buy, but the Guardian heard that I was photographing in a hospital and what I did for a living. Um, and they, they wanted to, um, to, to photograph, um, oh, they, they, they wanted to, to publish some of my work as a, um, as a photo essay online. I. And so I said to 'em, do you think there's gonna be, uh, you know, any, any chance of getting it into print? And, and their answer was very difficult to get anything into print at the moment. So a couple of weeks where more week and a half went by and I didn't hear anything back from them. Um, I. And then the notification pinged on my phone as I was having, uh, having breakfast one morning. And, uh, and it was, you know, it was covid in a rural district, general hospital. And I thought, oh, that sounds like my work. So opened, opened it up and, and sure enough, there it was. And, and they, they'd used an essay that I'd written as well, and they'd used 1520 of my, my photos in, in this, this online piece. And I thought, well, I, I'm about to cycling to work. I'll, I'll stop off at the local garage and, uh, and buy a newspaper and see, and see if it's gone into there. And, and so I pulled, I pulled up on my mounted bike to, um, to Theand in front of the garage and looked down and there were all the newspapers and there was the Guardian newspaper, and that photograph was on the front of it. Wow. That's cool. And I, and I just went, fuck, and almost fell off my bike. So I went and I bought every copy of the Guardian that they had in, in the garage. And I got to work and I, and I opened it up and I was, I was, I was. Parking my bike outside and I opened up and I also had a double page spread as well and Nice. And they used every photo I'd sent them and they'd used all of my words word for word. And uh, and I phoned my dad, um, who obviously was a newspaper editor, and, uh, and uh, he said, oh, he said, yeah, I saw, um, I saw your work in on online. And he said, very good. You should be very proud of yourself. I went, yeah, I'm, I said, it's really good. I said, and I got the front page as well. Now I live in a small town of 12,000 people in South Wales called Aveni. Um, and he went, ah, front page of Aveni Chronicle. Excellent. And I went, no, no, I've got the front page of the guardian dead. And I could kind of hear him spitting his corn flakes out. And he said to me. Do you realize what you've done? And I went, well, no, not really. And uh, he said, you've put the biggest news story in the world on the front page of one of the biggest newspapers in the world. And that's something that, you know, most photographers will never get a chance to do in their life. That's true. And, and, and, yeah, it kind of turned things around for me, really. I mean, I, I've, it's opened so many doors for me. I mean, I wouldn't be sitting here talking with you if, you know, if it wasn't for that photo and things like that. It's, it's a, well, if you had that photo is not why I was going. We're talking because you, you've done a, it's not because you're the 2021 documentary photographer of the year or anything. It just, you have a, a, a, again, a, a great body of work that you've shared on, on Instagram, which I happen to, uh, be trolling. And then I found it. So it was good. Whether you're, whether you're a famous or not, what's good is, is not. Thank you. How I choose, uh, who I, who I interview. I just do, I like your work. Do I think you have something interesting to say? You check all those boxes and have an awful lot more to say than that. Oh, I'll, I'll take that. I'm happy with that. Thank you. So the, uh, move on to this one, but that's, that's great. It was a wonderful story. So this is, so this one didn't make the first print of the, um, of the book. Um, so this is Lauren, who's another, who's another, um, practitioner who had only, um, qualified six months later. And this, this was kind of a joke scenario where we were at the end of a 12 hour day and, and we were stocking up theaters. And this is a box that surgical gowns came in and Lauren was complaining about how tired she was and, and we were just kind of messing around there. There's, there's always a really good sort of dark sense of humor in, in, in operating theaters. And it's not called Theater for Nothing. And it, it attracts people who are slightly larger than life or characters. Um, and so she just got in this box and, and said, oh, I'm so tired, I can sleep here. And, and I took a photo where. You could see her face and she had her hands up in the air. And then, and then I took this, this one where she, she put her head down. Um, and I love this because she's got these incredibly long, elegant fingers, like a, sort of a concert pianist. And I just like the way they're framed in the flap of the box. Um, but my mum was a nurse and, and she said that of all of the photos that I took, this was the one that reminded her of just how tired she used to be up for a really long shift. Um, so this, this one, I think, you know, it for me, it works on different levels. It works on, it works that it shows the tiredness. Um, but it also shows that intrinsic sense of humor that you have to have when you work in, in, you know, circumstances like, like you do in, in a hospital during covid or you would've known, you know, working, working in sort theater of war as well. If you, if you lose your humor, then you can't survive really? You, you, yeah, I that, that way lies, insanity. Yeah, I was a, a hospital corpsman was my, uh, my job. So my What was you, sorry? A hospital corpsman. So my job, my job was to, uh, put people back to, basically it would be considered a medic. It's just the Navy's term. Oh, okay. Okay. Ah, right. Uh, so it was just a matter of, uh, yeah, there, yeah. There are times I've worked with, worked with a lot of people who, who did similar job. Yeah. And you just, you find yourself Jackie Dam and you just, again, just easier to make a joke how, no matter how dark the situation versus, uh, just imploding. Absolutely. Yeah. You've got to, so, uh, so when, which phase of Covid was this? Was this during, uh. This was the first wave. Okay. So these, so these were published in The Guardian in May, um, May, 2020. So these were all taken, um, sort of march, between March and end of April. Excellent. Uh, that, so that's a, um, that's during an operation. So consultant anesthetist, uh, Jenny on the left hand side, and Kumar, who's a, a consultant surgeon in the middle. And I, I love this, I love the kind of the make do element that he's wearing a pair of DIY um, protective goggles.'cause he didn't like the visors over his, over his glasses. And, and, and so he'd gone, gone to this, his garage and dug around to see what he could find and come up with these. But one of the beauties of working in a really small hospital as well is we're a very intimate team. Um, and we, um, you know, we, we bond together very quickly. There's, there's no real hierarchy, you know, and obviously you're deferring to people if they're consultants or professors or whatever, but we, you know, we, we work together and we play together and, and, and so it enabled me to, to, to get a, a really sort of good, intimate series of shots. Um, excellent. Kumar's wife, um, was actually a consultant anesthetist who, who very sadly died, um, about six years ago of a, of a brain hemorrhage. And, and she collapsed at work and died four days later. But I, I was working alongside her that day when she died. So, you know, it's like, that's awful. Almost part of the family really. It's, uh, this particular shot. I, I'm a big fan of, uh, of using what's there and I like. Uh, basically obstacles and things. I'm just realizing that my, uh, cursor is right on your photographs. It's killing me. Sorry. I apologize for that. That's really interesting actually, because I was thinking when you go back and look at photos, there's always something else to be discovered in a photo. And I've only just noticed for the first time in the screen behind his head, there's the reflection of a hand of another operating surgeon. Okay. I I recognize it as a hand. It didn't dawn me. Yeah. The white, the white above the fingers is the, uh, is the cuff of the surgical gown. Nice. Just thinking back in, uh, when, when photography first came around, I was painting. Uh, was always idealized. Idealized. And you never would put a, uh, an obstacle in your photograph. Oh, absolutely. And your painting. And then when, when photographs came in, they were trying to, uh, be paintings and they would try, but inherently you would end up with obstacles and painting eventually started to copy. They were copying each other, so they started to paint with obstacles in the way. And while photographers were trying to photograph with, with a clean foreground, I'm always a, personally was a fan of, uh, finding some something to vignette and to look through. It always makes me feel like in a situation, I'm a big fan of a messy frame. Yeah. It, it feels like you're there. There's, there's a reality to this that's not even in a real situation sometimes and maybe something isn't around, but if, if things are too isolated, it just, there's a, again, and it could be the, the feel that someone's going for, but just in general, I tend to like messy. I like what's called chaos. I like feeling like I'm actually there. And again, this does that. I think one of the things about this, this style of, um, photograph as well is because of the, the sort of intimacy of the, um, of the environments that we work in, but also because of the, the, the sort of over the top PPE that we were having to wear. It was quite a claustrophobic environments. And, and I think the, this, the tough photo and shooting with, with the wide angle lens as well, or a wider angle lens, um, you know, it, it kind of lends that, that that claustrophobia and, and, and sort of intimacy to the photograph as well translates. Mm-hmm. Uh, now this is, um, this is Laurie. Laurie Laurie's one of my favorite colleagues. So she, um, obviously her 40th birthday, um, and she had come in, um, to, to work on her 40th birthday. Um. Which, which is kind of a mark of, of, of the nature of the work that we do. But Lori lost, um, a daughter shortly before I knew her. So I started at the hospital in 2017, I think in 2016. She lost a young daughter who was five or six to a particularly nasty type of childhood cancer. Um, and, and then I was diagnosed with cancer in 2020 as well. And, and, you know, we really sort of bonded over that and, and spent a long time talking about it. And, uh, and whenever, so I, I'm gonna do a little joke thing now. So when, whenever I go anywhere and do a talk about this, this photograph or these photographs, and, and I, um, I have this photo up, I always take a photo of the photograph of her and send it to her saying, now, look, you are now famous in Yorkshire, or you are, you are famous in sre. The best one was when I, I had an exhibition in the, the Fuji shop in Lester Square in London, and she was in the window of the Fuji shop. So I, so I sent her a picture. So, so you'll excuse me if I, if I, if I now take a photo of this and I can, I can then send it to her tonight and say, you're now gonna be world famous.'cause this is instead of go around the world or the podcast. So Yeah. So, so it's, um, it's, but this is, uh, I, I was approached by b BBC recently, um, saying that, you know, it's the five year anniversary coming up, and they'd like me to talk about one photo and, and hopefully get the person who's in it to, to, to sort of come along and talk as well. So this, this is the photo I'm gonna choose for that. Oh, cool. And it's nice to see something that's, uh, lighter versus, uh, we we're usually, when you see, uh, something in the medic, the people photographs, the people in the medical profession during covid, it is always, uh, some form of tragedy, whether they're exhausted, whether there's Yeah. Yeah. The chaos. You've gotta have, you've gotta have the light with the dark. Right. So I saw. Again, obviously I saw this when you sent it, but then I saw today that you had posted this, I posted again, again because again, the leave it to, uh, governments in this particular time of, of, uh, of our lives to do the wrong thing. Yeah. They seem to have a, a knack and a talent for it, don't they? At the moment. Right. So this is, this is Faye. And Faye is, um, is somebody I met four years ago when I was, I'd, I'd sold a, um, a photograph to somebody in a, in a, a nearby village. In fact, it was the photo of Sarah that was on the front page of The Guardian and, and went over there and, and, um, she introduced me to one of her neighbors who was Faye. Um, she said, oh, Faye, Faye would love to have a photo taken. And I said, who's Faye? And she would come, come with me and I'll show you. And, and Faye opened the door and, and, you know, looking like these. Eccentric vision. Um, and I just thought, oh my God, you know, there's a photo. This is, this is fantastic. And then I thought, oh, fa Faye, transgender, Faye openly transgender, um, she lives in the same house that she grew up in. Um, and I thought there's a story to tell here because Faye the antithesis of everything that we see in, um, in the media about trans people. And, you know, it tends to, to focus on androgynously beautiful or very fashionable or completely over the top. Um, young people living in metropolitan settings. Um. And Faith, just this person who gets on with her life in a small village working class background in, in South Wales, and gets on with all her neighbors and doesn't bother anyone. And, and, and just carries on living her life. And she, and she's doing up the house that she had, she lives in, which was actually in many ways quite an unhappy childhood for, for various reasons. And I, I just kind of thought, you know, there's a really good story here about how actually Faye could sell the house and move out and buy somewhere that was all up together and it, her life would be much easier. And so it's kind of an interwoven story of how she holds the house back and the house holds her back. But at the end of the day, you know, she's transgender. But that, that's, that's only one part of her story really. Um, but she, you know, she, she does all of her own building work, all you know, uh, I hadn't, she's terrible, terrible at answering texts and phone calls, and I hadn't heard from her for about, uh, three months. And so I thought, well, I'm gonna go and do, do a welfare check and make sure she's all right. So I, uh, so I turned up at her house and I said, Faye, I'm here to, uh, just here to make sure that you are all right,'cause you, you don't answer my texts. I said, oh, I'm fine. She said, I said, what are you doing at me? She said, I'm making doors for the house. I. So normally this room is full of old motorbikes.'cause she restores motorbikes in the front room, so Right. Um, so she said, oh, I'm making doors come and have a look, whatever. So she put this circular saw in the middle of the room and I said, you know, I said to you, I'm not coming here to take photographs, but this is just too good an opportunity to miss. So I'm, I'm crowd, you know, I mean, you can obviously tell where I am from the position of that thing. I'm crouched on the floor at the business end of the saw. Um, with a little, like a cl in my hand trying, trying to stop the dust and yeah. Fas idea of health and, you know, I, I spent a long lot, long time, 22 years in workshops as an antique restorer fas idea of health and safety is not the same as my idea of health and safety. So, you know, I was, I was waiting for a bit of four by two to come sort of smack me in the forehead, but, uh, yeah. But at the end of the day, you know, you suffer for your art. I got the photograph, so. Yeah. Well, again, you, she's using a, a table saw and I, I, she's, yeah, and it looks like, uh, that she's got all her fingers, so that's a good thing. Yeah, I know. I mean, I, whenever I get patients now that, that, you know, say they, they've worked as carpenters, I always ask them if they still got their thumbs. Yeah. And many of them don't. Okay, so yeah, so this is, this is Faye showing me a, a dress that she'd bought that she was going to a party in. And, and, you know, one of, one of the fantastic things about, about this project for me is that there's this amazing level of trust that Faye has put into me or, or put upon me that she just lets me into her life to photograph anything. And, and, you know, she's totally open. She's totally, um, she's, she's totally receptive to me photographing anything, you know, wars and all. Um, and, and so, you know, I can turn up at eight o'clock in the morning when she's getting dressed and I'll photograph her, you know, all, all of her, um, you know, her hormone treatments lying around. I can photograph those. And, uh, I, I've, I've actually started shooting some of this project in color. As well.'cause I was, uh, I've got a, a good friend called Abby Trailer Smith, who is, who is an excellent photographer. Um, and, and, and she keeps, you know, she'd been saying to me, I wanna see some of your work in color. You know, why, why are you all shooting in black and white? I said, well, that's just who I am. I'm a black and white photographer. And she said, well, you know, this project I, I feel would, would benefit from having some color in it. And, you know, and I like, I like a challenge. I don't like pigeonholing myself too much. And so I loaded some color film. I bought some very cheap color, color plus 200 from, from the local, um, camera shop here. Um, and I loaded some in, and I think it was the first time in 20 odd years that I put a color film into a camera. And I, and I turned up at, um, phase door one morning and, and she answered the door, she had blood on her chin. And I said, oh, you've got blood on your chin. And she said, yeah. She said, I still need to, still need to shave every, you know, three to four days. Um, sometimes. So you, sometimes less depends on how my hormone levels are. So you, you've cut yourself shaving. And she said, and I said, can I take a photo of that? And she went, yeah, absolutely. So, you know, I sort of photographed her and, you know, if it was in black and white, actually it could have been a bit of gravy or Marmite from her toast or anything like that where, but um, but yeah, so, you know, I've, I've got this incredible sort bond with her, really. And, and I posted the photo today on Instagram, um, because there's been a legal challenge in the British courts, the high courts, as to what the definition of a woman is because Scotland very forward thinking, said that anybody who's got a a gender realignment certificates can be classified as a woman, which is obviously a gender term rather than a science term. Right. Scientific, biological, scientific term. Um. We've just got these ridiculous culture wars going on at the moment whereby, you know, some of the most vulnerable people in society are being victimized and used as a political football. And so now the definition of a woman has gone back to being, you know, in, in England that, you know, you have to be biologically born as a female in order to be able to call yourself a woman. And as, as if that's one of the, uh, the pressing issues of our time, like, you know, you, you look at all the things going on in the world right now, I know that that is what you have to focus on. But it is, it's, it's throwing red meat scraps to the heart of thinking, isn't it? Mm-hmm. And you know, and the really sad thing about it is that women have no more rights today than they had yesterday, but trans people have fewer. And, you know, it's, it's really punching down. I think it's also, I do, I do understand the more nuanced, um, arguments and, you know, people need to feel safe, but at the end of the day, a trans woman is far more likely to be attacked, or a cisgender woman is far more likely to be attacked by somebody who looks like you or I than they are by a trans woman in a toilet or a prison. You know? Well, that one, and that's the, uh, the thing when they wanna say they're, they're trying to protect people. The people that need the protecting are the people that they're protecting, that they're guarding against. Yeah. Like they, they, you're. When is the last time you've seen a, a trans person go on a rampage and, uh, and shoot up anything? Absolutely. Yeah, absolutely. I mean, there, there is so much rampant misogyny that needs to be dealt with in the world at the moment. I mean, you only need to go down the, the comments of anything on Instagram or thread, I mean, threads has become completely toxic. Um, you know, it's almost, that was quick Ex on. Yeah. Who'd have thought? Eh, it is almost like his ex on steroids, isn't it? But it's, uh, but you know, there is so much rampant misogyny and, you know, in, in a world of Trumps and Tates and JD Vance's and Elon Musk mm-hmm. You know, the, the right wing in this country and Orban and, you know, and this, this kind of feels like, what's the point? Really? Mm-hmm. Yeah. They, uh, just so, and they, they, if I recall, is it called the, the sa, was it, what's the name of, it's an interesting name, but the one one Woman's Journey? No, the, no, not the, the. Project, but the, uh, the law that just came out, it has a, uh, oh, um, yeah, I can't remember. I can't remember. Yeah, because, because it's funny when they, uh, the, when, when they're taking rights away, they find really clever names to make this up. Yeah, absolutely. Yeah. So, so that the people whose rights are taking will actually vote for it. Yes. So, so I find also that, uh, these, these things that are supposed to be there specifically to save, save women. Have not given women a single another. Right. And frequently they take rights away and, but they, they, they say, oh, well you're being saved from, from going to the bathroom with a, a trans woman. I think. How is that, how is that again, how is that being saved? First of all, I, I, I know what the inside of a lot of women's bathrooms look like for one reason or another. And, and they happen to have stalls and when no one's looking at anything and then they just No down, but also only share you're doing washing your hands. You live, you live in France. I mean, I, I, you know, I, I go to the continent fairly frequently. There's a lot of unisex bathrooms and toilets and things. All the conflict, you know, far more. And, and they, they're creeping in here as well. You know, you go to a restaurant, you, you walk in the same door as a woman walks in or, you know. Yeah. It's, I dunno. Even in the US there's a, a bunch of places I lived in Arizona, the last place I lived in the us and you, you would think again, just right off the bat, that that would have to be, uh. Yeah, just all the stereotypes you'd imagine. But really, there were a bunch of places I went in. You would like bars and whatnot. You'd have unisex bathrooms. Yeah. So and so that everybody, literally, you, everybody goes into their bathroom and they come back out and then there's a, a, like a, a trough sink or something like that. They're washing their hand, shoulder to shoulder. Men, women, women. Like, so how is that any different? I know, I know. It's not, it's just, it's just something to pick a fight over, isn't it? Of course. You know, it is. And it's just this ridiculous era that we are living in where we've become so polarized and anything that can be used to set one group of people against another is, is used by certain, certain political demographics. And you know, it's the same with immigrants, you know, I mean, we, every country is a nation of immigrants. You know, America is, France, is Britain is. If you can, if you can persuade one group of people that has very little, that another group of people that has very little or even less is out to get what they've got, then you've got power. There's a brilliant cartoon of Rupert Murdoch sitting in the middle of a table with a huge plate of cookies in front of him, and there's a guy in a hard hat and a hyves jacket, white guy sitting at the other end of the table, and he's got one cookie on a plate. And then there's a guy at the other end of the table who is clearly meant to be an immigrant because he's dark skinned and quite scuff scruffy dress. So he is the typical, stereotypical right wing media image of an immigrant. And Murdoch is turning around to the guy in the hardhat going, oh mate, that immigrant wants to steal your cookie. Yeah. And that's it, isn't it? You know? That's it. That's the entire thing with era each other. I was, I was having this conversation with somebody the other day. He was talking about, you know, bloody immigrants and, and I said, look, my family were economic migrants. You know, we, we moved to New Zealand in the seventies for a better life. I've got more in common with somebody trying to get here on a boat for a better life than I have with the people who are billionaires at the top of the tree trying to tell me that those migrants are trying to ruin my life. It's, uh, yeah. If people would ever look in versus looking out, they would, uh, they'd realize how much more they had in common with, uh, with, with, again, far more people than it's everybody seems to want to be part of a club that would never have them as a member of that club. Oh, totally. Totally. So I always say to people, you know, I, I always say to people, you know, I'm surrounded my by migrants everywhere I go every day. I'm surrounded by migrants. So, yeah, one of them's a professor of surgery, one's a consultant, anes, one's a nurse, one's, you know this. Mm-hmm. That's it. And they're all doing the jobs that people over here don't want to do. I can't do. So it's, yeah, it's crazy. Yeah, it is. That's life, isn't it? Mm-hmm. Okay, now we're definitely not on the, uh, on the other two. So this is your 50. This is, so this is the 50 plus project, 50 plus project looking at looking at men of, of, of our sort of age and who we are. And so this is a guy I photographed in the street, in Bath guy called Ted, who, um, he's actually 73. Um, and or he might have been when he took this a couple years ago. So he was, um, he was really keen that I showed his, um, Keith Herring sweatshirt as well when I bought it because he's a, he's a gay man and he said, you know, he said men of my generation fought for the rights to be seen and to, to have equality. And so he was really proud of, uh, of wearing that. And, uh, and so I tried to, so I did a little experiment about six months ago and I thought, I'm gonna go through some of these photos because I tend to shoot anonymously. So the project, um, the, the project, uh, is. There's, I think there's 83 people in the book. Um, most of them are anonymous, but there's about 12 of them who have actually written a little sort of bio about themselves. Um, but Ted was anonymous, but I put this photo on social media. I think I put it on Facebook, or I put it on on Instagram and just said, look, I'd be really interested to, uh, to track this guy down. I knew who he was. Within two hours of it being online, about five people have contacted me and said, oh, I know Ted, he's a, you know, he's a lecturer in, in textiles at a university in Essex. And so, you know, we had a conversation and, uh, I say, yeah, so, but yeah, that's real. I love his glasses. He's just, he, there's so much joy in his face as well. I love approaching people in. In the street and asking if I could photograph them. And when I started out, I was, I was quite shy as a, as a kid. And, and, and the camera was awkward, maybe more than shy. And the camera was a really good device to hide behind. Um, whereas now I use it as a device to meet people. And, and I, I find that most people, if you go and ask them if you can photograph them, uh, quite flattered that somebody wants to take their, particularly if you use word, the word portrait, because that kind of formalized it. Yeah. I, yeah, I agree with Cynthia so far. I find the percentage of people that, uh, that say yes with, with zero expectation of even receiving a photograph.'cause I, I say, I'll hand 'em a card and say, I hear you. Can I, I want to get you this. Yeah. And, and hardly anybody ever contacts back. It's, it's so interesting to find out how many people will just walk down the street and be a, be approached by a stranger with a camera. Again, if you, if you smile, you, you say something nice and people will, again, just for some strange reason, people seem to wanna be photographed. Yeah. More often than not. And they're, they're flattered. I find, I find that men are more receptive to it than, than women. Uh, and you know, I think that's totally understandable. A middle aged guy with a camera looking up for a woman in the street and saying, can I photograph you? You know, it's that. But, but also I think there's that social expectation. Wo women have been programmed for so many years to look a certain way by the media. You know, you've always gotta look at your best. You know, you've got, your lipstick's gotta be right, your clothes gotta be right. Whereas you could walk up to a, you know, 50, 60-year-old guy in, in the market. He's got hair coming outta his nose and his ears and you know, his hat on back to front and gravy down his chin. And I go, yeah, I look good. Photograph me. There's a, there's another classic cartoon where a guy, you know. A bald guy with a huge beer belly and you know, a pair of baggy old white fronts standing in front of a mirror and, and a, you know, an absolute Adonis with a six pack and a cliff looks back at him. And then there's a stunning woman who looks like Bridgette Barau looking in the mirror and, you know, sitting fat woman in sort of baggy nickers. He is looking back at her. So I think there is this thing that, you know, men Men, that's exactly, men walk outta the house going, I'm looking good today. And that's it. So this, this guy was, um, Kingsley. So he, I met him in, in Brighton, um, a couple years ago. He's a, a white Rastafarian guy who had a shop in Brighton. He, he's now actually moved out to Ethiopia, but he's, he's one of the ones that's written something for, for the book as well. That's cool. Really interesting guy. Uh, Daniel's a guy who lived in a, um, or lives in a a canal, boats on a canal nearby. He's an amazing carpenter. Really, really good. Um, real gentle soul. He, you know, he, he looks like the type of guy you, you wouldn't necessarily want to meet down a dark alley at night, but he's just, he's a, he's a big sort of hugger, big sort of bear of a mad and just, just a really lovely, gentle guy. I think he's beard, currently bright orange, or it might be blue at the moment, but it's, yeah, those boats. So I, I, I think I saw. Special or something a little while back. It's, we're talking about all the houseboats that are, uh, yeah. In and around. I got my wife and never, she, she refuses, doesn't even like to entertain the idea. Like, I'm like, I think one of my fantasies is to have a, uh, have a nice houseboat on the sun. Oh, that'd be amazing. Yeah. Of course. What's apparently was the other part of the fantasy is that my wife would live with me and neither of those things are gonna happen. Yeah, yeah. She's still buying into that. She's your wife is no stakeholder in your fantasy. Apparently not. She's allowed mine. She just completely divest herself from some of them women minute. So this, the guy I photographed in Cardiff and this, this was, um, this was taken shortly after, um, uh, the October the seventh and after Israel had gone in and in into Gaza and things were just beginning to get controversial. Uh, the, the level of Israel's response to Oct, October the seventh. Um, and you know, this, this guy, I was having a sort of long chat with him in the street 'cause you know, obviously he's sort of, you know, very proudly Jewish, wearing his star of David. So, but he's got great coat. I've got a coat a bit like that, that I wear on my scooter on very cold days. Yeah, we, we could talk for hours on the, uh, on, on what your conversation was. Yeah. And yeah. So that's a whole nother Yeah. I think maybe, yeah, maybe over. What's gonna a pint when I get, finally get over. Hang on. Actually, what you have to do is meet you in Wales, so Yeah. So this guy was taken, um, he's an Italian guy who was photographed outside Bar Italia in soho, in London. Um, I was up in London with a friend being filmed for a, um, a, a film which is coming out, I think it's coming out on Netflix this year sometime called Never Grow Up, which is, is made by a, a German film director called Nico Bayer, um, who started off as a music director, um, photograph he did, did videos for the VE and Oasis and Radiohead. And then he did a big Chevrolet advert for, um, that was at Super Bowl a couple of years ago. Um, but he, he was a modern in, in Germany in, in, in the eighties and he's still fascinated by the scene. So he is, he's making a film about the, the, the sort of mod culture scene, modernist culture worldwide. And so friend and I, um, had gone up to London to be filmed by him and, uh, and this guy was just sat outside, outside bar. So I thought, that's such a good look. You know, that's with his 1970s miles, Davis shades on. So I thought, I've got a photo, got a photograph over there. Yeah. So I, I read again that you're, uh, you're a fan of jazz. So am I. I, oh, I love it. Yeah. Yeah. Again, I, I find again, I think what's, well, just, it's kinda the way that I go about photography, but I think street photography frequently is, uh, and again, a lot of the ways I do things, which why I like street photography, there's a component of a, a jazz into the whole thing as far as improvisational versus, uh, I mean, you just, you just kind of. Everybody's playing their own part and you just all have to, uh, again, make it work together. And yeah, you've gotta get, you've all gotta get to the end point at the same time. That's it. Yeah. Yeah. Again, it seems to be what's chaotic to, to many, but, uh, it has a rhythm. It has, it has all the, again, it has all the nuance and, uh, again, it makes music again in white music. Not everybody likes it. And also I think with jazz as well, is there's this amazing aesthetic to it as well. Um, you, you look back to those classic photos and the, and I dunno whether you've seen it, the photos that w Eugene Smith shot the Jazz Lofts, um, yeah. Mm-hmm. Made in the fifties. I'm just, just stunning. Just aesthetically, absolutely brilliant. Um, yeah, gene Smith, there's so many, so much stuff that he's done. That was good. I'm just absolutely. Incredibly jealous. Yeah, absolutely. I mean, he's the daddy, isn't he? Basically. He's absolutely incredible. But there's a, um, there's a really good book that I bought recently called Black Ivy, um, which is looking at how, um, black jazz musicians and cultural figures like Sidney Poitier and um, uh, Paul Robeson people, um, appropriated the classic Ivy League look in America in the fifties and, and kind of put their own spin on it as well. That that's, you know, that that's. That really sort of fascinates me. It's such a, and so apparently it was some, uh, the pictures got, I had reordered this yesterday and apparently it was with the, uh, they chose to go back into, uh, haphazard thing. Jazz isn't there? We'll go from, you know, one stanza to another. So ob obviously in know back, back to fa and this was one, the photographs where, um, where I sort of turn up eight o'clock in the morning and she was just getting dressed and there was this amazing light coming through the window. And I, I just love the fact you've got that shadow of her leg and where her, she's putting on her tights or a pantyhose as the American was, I guess. Mm-hmm. Um, and just where it touches the, um, touches the floor, it almost looks like a sort of dog's leg coming down and just creating that shadow. Um, but you can see that she, you know, she lives in what most people would consider to be absolutely chaos. But, you know, I've got my hi My Hitchcock moment in this because the book on, on the Chester draws is actually my book. Uh, all in a today's work that I did. So I, I've got a little cameo role in that photograph. Very cool. When I saw this photograph, the first thing I saw, 'cause you are looking at the whole, uh, again, shadow and light. The, uh, her, her stocking ended up looking to me like it quickly. Like, have you seen like when, uh, like, uh, say Ampy amp, uh, people with, uh, above the knee, uh, amputations. Yep. Run. Yeah, no, I see what you mean there. Yeah. Absolutely. Yeah. So they have that, that kind of curve going on. Yeah. And so like the runners that are uh, that run with that, uh, that prosthetic Yes. That looked like, and so when I first saw that, that's exactly what I thought it was, and I looked color, I'm like, oh, wait a second. No, this, that's a stock. Yeah, yeah. No, I can see that. Yeah. And that, and that's the beauty of a photograph, isn't it? There's so many different ways of looking at it. I mean, there was a, um, I can't remember who it was, who, who said it, but you know, a photograph is neutral and it's not until somebody looks at a photograph that they infer, you know, what they want from it, or they take, they take what they want from it. That's like, uh, what's a, uh, quantum physics? It's like, yeah, yeah, exactly. Observation, which is way over my head. Yeah. Observation is exactly locks things in until you observe something. Then it's, it exists in multiple states. Yeah, totally. Totally. Alright, cool. Yeah, again, Faye with, uh, you know, the, the sort of class, you know, because she's, 'cause she's a hormonal transition. Um, you know, her skin is changing, so she's got lots and lots of sort of bottles of E 45 everywhere to, uh, but also because she's incredibly practical and she's doing all the, the building work on a house, the, you know, the E 45 is juxtaposed with an adjustable spanner, adjustable wrench and a bottle of perfume as well. So you've got, you, you've got it all going on in that photo. We got all it. Those are great again, uh, thank you. The, the, the back, the backstory and you got so much more. Again, we couldn't, we could be here for weeks, uh, if we're actually going through again, a lot of your work. So this is for anybody watching, anybody listening. There's just so much more to dig into with, uh, with David's work. So, uh, you really, in the show notes, I'm gonna make sure that I've got, uh, links to, uh, your Instagram and Yeah. And your webpage. I'm always delighted when people contact me to talk about work as well, you know, to talk about any photo they want. They want to, uh, ask me technical questions about how I do it, philosophical questions about why I do it. I love talking about photography, so it's, uh, so yeah, any anyone's welcome to contact me and the philosophy I always find to be, everybody's got their own reasoning. And, uh, the philosophically I think was photography is, uh, I dunno, it's, it's, I, I don't know, I can't even put it into words. There's just so many different levels. If you are really into photography, like I had a, I was a, a mentor for a group in, in Arizona. It was all kids in focus. These were kids that were in the, uh, the foster program that were basically thrown away. And, uh, they were guarded and. The woman that had started the program, um, a great photographer and a really a wonderful human being. Us, we would go to these, to a school and they would get, she would pay for it in the beginning. We eventually got donors. They would get a small cannon point and shoot, and we'd spend eight weeks going in week, week after week, teaching these kids how to look at the world, not expecting them to grow up to be famous photographers. But more often than not, they started off completely closed up. But as we would show them how to basically use this as a, as a, uh, as a way form of just documenting their day or like journaling basically, and finding what's good in, in their personal world. There's moments of beauty, there's moments of, of, of clarity. There's, there's things you can trust and, and people you can trust and. To the last one of them, every single time we would get them to open up and they would. And then the beautiful thing about photography is you don't need a camera. You, everybody thinks you need a camera, but the reality is what's just what, how you, it teaches you how to see. I think, again, I could be wrong. And it, and it also teaches you critical thinking as well. It, it, it, it encourages you to look at the world from a different perspective. You're always trying to find a different angle for something and you know, you need to look at it in a way that somebody else hasn't done it. And, and that translates not just from the visual, but into the slightly more sort of ethereal way that, that we all sort of approach the world and deal with the world, I think. Yeah. So you've got multiple forms of catharsis. You've got your photography, you've got your, uh, your sewing, you've got your, you've got your, uh, your guitar and your, uh, your mandolin that's behind you. Yeah, I think, I think it's really interesting as I get older, I've, I've started to look at who I am as a person and, and you know, since I had the cancer diagnosis in 2020, which, you know, touch wood, I've been clear for since 2021. Um, but it's made me sort of analyze my life. And I was having a chat to, again, my friend Abby, who wanted me to shoot color about Neurodivergence and, and, and, and A DHD and I said to her, I said, I'm sure I've got elements of a DHD within me. And she goes, elements of it. She goes, you are absolutely hate book. What do you mean? And I said this to my mum and she, oh, for God's sake, of course you are. She said, you know, you, you were that kid like Damien from the Oman that was pedaling your tri out at three o'clock in the morning. You know? And I think I just, I've got a low boredom threshold. I need to be doing things. I, I need constant stimulation and, and I've just become, I think I. A lot of people get less curious as they get older. I think I've become more curious as, as I get older, I want to, I want to understand things really. Yeah. And now I've got the confidence to go out and do it as well. I think that I agree. I, I, I wish that more, more people It does. I, I a hundred percent agree that it seems that you'll around and people, as they get older, they get less curious. And you, there's the old expression that when you're young, uh, you are, uh, just say liberal, but you are, you are more compassionate when you're young, you as good, you, uh, you're, I don't know. You're maybe more accepting, whatever it, it's, as you get older, you become more conservative and you close up and you're trying more defensive. I find to me that in my life, I seem to be the exact opposite of that. Yeah. Likewise, the more, likewise, the more I, the more life experience I have, the more I look back and go, how could I have reacted that way in that situation? Now I be far more compassionate. Must do it. And I, I bring. More understanding as I get older and I, I, I recognize that the, uh, the world is not getting bigger and I'm getting closer to the end, not the beginning. Totally. I feel exactly, I feel exactly the same way. Yeah. So, uh, yeah, again, uh, this is what I love about meeting people and, uh, that's what I love. The reason I started doing a podcast is because I get a chance to meet people all over the world, and I don't have, I, I'd rather be there doing this over a pint than Scola. Instead, I'm sitting here in, in my, yeah. With a glass. I'm in France. I have a glass of wine. One of the, one of the benefits of, uh, you, well, I don't, I don't drink beer, so I, I I drink wine, so I'm gonna go and have a glass shortly. That's it. So, so what? But I mean, I've, I've met so many fantastic people through photography and, and it's really interesting that. Ever since I, I sort of achieved a level of, you know, I hate the word celebrity, but achieved a level of celebrity photography and being known. Mm-hmm. Um, everyone has been so nice. The only person there, which actually really horrible to me was the photographer on the newspaper when I was younger. It was just, just narky old so and so. But, um, but yeah. But no, everyone's been great. I've, I've just met some really, really interesting people through it as well. And, uh, I can imagine the, uh, the character, everyone, everyone wanted to, you know, I, I, I found myself in, I, I got invited to join a, a Facebook group during lockdown called the Photo Book Club, um, which was organized by a guy called, um. Who was it organized it, Colin, Colin Wilkinson was the publisher who, who asked me to come along and, and, and join it. And Tom Broadbent was, was the guy who was running the group. And so Tom, um, Tom Wilkinson had Blue Coat Press, blue Coat Publishing who, who specialized in putting out documentary photography, um, Dr. Colin Wilkinson. Sorry. And, and he, he said, oh, we, you know, we've invited, um, I've invited David today 'cause he's, he's basically shot and published and put this book out within two weeks to, to, to capitalize on news stories showing us all how it's doing. And I'm sitting there in this meeting with lots of people's avatars around. I'm going, oh my God, I've got their book on my shelf and that, such and such and that, such and such. And, you know, all these people I'd looked up to all my life as documentary photographers, people like Barry Lewis and Daniel Meadows and all these, and, um. But everyone basically reached down the ladder to help me up to the next rung, and nobody wanted to put their foot on my head, stop me from going. Everyone's just been brilliant. You know, I suddenly find myself being invited to lunch at David Hearn's house, you know, 'cause he lives, you know, fairly close by and that, it's quite surreal. He's sitting there opposite this Magnum legend having, having a cup of tea and some lunch with him and things like that. So, yeah. That's cool. It has been nice. So I always try to pay it forwards as well. So, yeah, it, it's funny how many people try to, uh. Uh, I can keep things secret. Yeah. As if what? As if they have the, uh, the one thing that's completely different, there's, everything is built on, again, the shoulders that you're stepping on the, uh, the shoulders of the people from before you. Yeah. Yeah. The idea that what's people are, uh, again, so secretive on certain things, it, it just, it, it, again, it j it's a human nature thing versus, uh, but it, it's, it's awful. It is one of the, it, one of the, the base or, uh, instinct or aspects of human nature. Totally. Totally. But I wanna, before we go, uh. On publishing. So you've got one book out, you've got another one, uh, that you just saw that you're, uh, 50, you're over 50, you've got the, I got first draft of last night. Um, and so that's, you know, that's, that's looking good and really pleased with the way that's, that's coming on. So that's been put out by a company called Fi Publish called Fiscal of Books. Uh, that's cool. So we're just, at the moment, we're just gotta decide how we're gonna do it, whether we're gonna put it out as a Kickstarter or, or just do a sort of straight, straightforward sort of publication and, uh, and go there. And then the, the book One Woman's Journey will be after that. Excellent. How, like, how do you, like, in a nutshell, if you can, obviously there's a lot that goes into it, but if, like for people that wanna, uh, put their work into a book, what, what would you, what advice you have? I think the nature of book publishing has changed an awful lot, um, in that Kickstarter is a wonderful thing and it enables people to actually really get out and publicize their work. And, and as long as you set realistic targets to actually gather the money together and, and do it, you've gotta be fairly, fairly sort of social media savvy to get it out there. Um, but a lot of people are making their own books now. I mean, I'm a massive fan of zines because I think one of the problems with photography books is they're, they tend to be incredibly expensive. Um, photographers tend not to earn much money. Photography books tend to be collected by photographers. Um, and it's an expensive process to, to print really good quality books and they tend to be fairly short print runs as well. So if you don't buy them straight out, it doesn't take long for a book that would've been 30 pounds to be 150 pounds if somebody really wants it. Um, and, and so I think, I think things like zines and, and sort of pamphlets is a great way to get work published. Do a few of those, take them around to book fairs. You know, there's lots of book fairs. I mean, if you, in Britain, there's Bristol, you know, books on photography. There's the London Book Fair, London Photo, photo Fair, things like that. Photo London, photo North, which has just been, I was lucky enough to be one of the principal photographers at Photo North back in 2022, I think it was. Yeah. Um, there's always people, there's always publishers there, you know, selling their ways, but also looking for new stuff to publish. So my, my son makes his own books. I mean, he made, when he did his degree, he made a fantastic hard black book, which you like, the prize in my collection called The Firefly Platform, which was like looking at liminal spaces in London. And he's now, he, he was lucky enough to be chosen to go out and hang out with Gregory Halper in Mexico. And, uh, and, and a guy called Paul who has a, who has a book publishers there. And, uh. And so they've said to him, you know, you shot this really good body of work in London, but you've also shot a really good body of work in New York. Why don't you actually combine the two and, and, and turn it into a sort of transatlantic project? So, you know, he could be working on that as well. So, cool. But make, make books, you know, if you've got the dexterity, make books or, or it's, it's cheap to get the made now, just get one or two made and, and take them round to publishers affairs and, and show them. I'm lucky that, you know, when I won the, when I had the book out, first of all, and then, and then I, you know, I, I was approached by a publisher to, to do that. Um, 'cause he knew what work I was making in the hospital. And then of course that, that then won the, the documentary photographer of the year. And, and then I was made a fellow at the Royal Photographic Society that kind of brought me a bit of currency and that all of a sudden people are interested in my work. And, uh, and so that, that made, that made it a lot easier. But it's, it's, get yourself a decent pair of shoes, get out there and pound the pavements and see people and put it in front of people. And I always say to people when I'm, when I mentor younger photographers or new photographers, you know, one of the things that I always say to them is Don't be afraid of self publicity. Because you've gotta get out there and sell yourself. Right? Because there are so many people now in photography who, you know, wanting to, you know, 'cause it is so easy to make books on short print runs, you know, there's so many people out there getting what you've gotta go out there and, uh, and, and, and show your work and, and just try to have a, a, a different angle and slant on something as well. L no, if somebody's out there shooting red cars, you go out and shoot blue cars seems or shoot in black and white. Exactly. Will never catch job. Yeah, just change your filter and it'll look co completely different. So David, thank you so much for your time. That was good. Pleasure. Thank you for asking. Yeah. I appreciate just watching you work. But now getting to. Versus again, our little interactions through threads and, uh, and Instagram here and there. But mostly I, I just stalk and and appreciate your work, so Well, I'm glad you did. I'm glad you did I start, have a chat as well? I, whenever I, whenever I do a talk for camera clubs, I always get up and I, and I say it always amazes me that people are prepared to pay, to listen, to be taught where most of my colleagues will actually pay to make me shut up. Alright, cool. So again, I'm gonna do my be I still haven't gotten over there. The only time I've even been in, in, uh, on the, the large island was, uh, going through Heathrow. So, okay. I need, I need to get out. I actually, now I've got the, the, the tunnel. I can just take the, uh, come and visit and then, yeah, so I'm not sure, I'm not sure exactly how far Wales is. We must come to Paris as well. So yes, I'm not sure how far Wales is from, uh, from london hundred 20 miles, which that's not that bad. We're sure an American is only about that far, so yeah. I did a lot of driving back too on the, uh, on that side. But yeah, as a New Yorker, usually the entire world is centered around that one little tiny city, which is, it's a, it's a fairly large city, but every map drawn by a New Yorker is New York and the rest of the world. Yeah. Yeah. So my bro, my brother had a girlfriend once who I, I can't remember in the States she was from, but it was, you know, it was backwards, Arkansas or something like that. And, and you know, we'd be down at my parents' house in Devon in the southwest and she'd go, I'm gonna go up and see, um, you, I'm gonna go and see my friend up in Aberdeen. And I go, but that's like 700 marsh and that, that's beyond me. That would require some planning. Yeah. Not her. Okay. So thank you. Alright. Look, it's been a pleasure. Thank you. It's been a, a pleasure's definitely been mine. Thank you so much. And uh, I will, I'll, I'll keep in touch. Alright mate. Take care. Thanks. Good bye-Bye.