Scale with Strive Podcast
Welcome to the Scale with Strive podcast - the place where you come to listen to some of the worlds most influential leaders in the SaaS industry!
Scale with Strive Podcast
'Key Lessons in Sales Leadership' with John Turner
Welcome to the Scale with Strive podcast, the place where you come to listen to some of the world’s most influential leaders of the SaaS industry. 🚀
I am your host, John Hitchen and on today’s episode, I am excited to welcome John Turner (JT), CRO and Strategic Advisor at companies such as Stairwell and Observe.AI.
JT is a Sales Leader whose career spans from some of the biggest names in the Tech Industry.
✅ He's led a 400-person sales team in a 250 million emerging tech sales team at Symantec.
✅ He took TriNet through an IPO.
✅ He was responsible for the global sales team at Google Cloud Security Products.
These days, he's advising in high-growth startups, including one of Forbes' 50 AI companies. JT has seen every single side of this market engine, from Startup to Global scale, and he brings a straight talking, deeply strategic approach to Sales Leadership.
Today, we focus in on all things Sales Leadership and some of our key takeaways from the conversation were:
💡 Sales Leader Fundamentals - the differences between Sales Leadership and Sales Management.
💡 How to build a world-class Sales Team.
💡 How to balance short term targets, with long term development.
Let’s Dive in!
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Connect with JT here - https://www.linkedin.com/in/johnturner1000/
Connect with John here - https://www.linkedin.com/in/johnhitchen/
Learn more about Strive here - https://scalewithstrive.com/
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Chapters
0:00 Introduction to JT's Leadership Journey
3:12 Difference Between Sales Management and Leadership
8:32 The Truth Is in the Field Philosophy
14:30 Four Legs of the Table: Hiring Great Sales Reps
22:48 Creating an Authentic Sales Culture
31:58 Navigating Leadership Challenges and Transitions
39:45 Learning from History: Leadership Insights
Welcome to the Scale with Strive podcast, the place where you come to listen to some of the world's most influential leaders of the SaaS industry. Welcome to the Scale with Strive podcast. Today, I'm joined by JT, a sales leader whose career spans from some of the biggest names in the tech industry. He's led a 400-person sales team in a 250 million emerging tech sales team at Symantec. He took Trinet through an IPO and was responsible for the global sales team at Google Cloud Security Products. These days, he's advising in high-growth startups, including one of Forbes 50 AI companies. Jt's seen every single side of this market engine, from startup to global scale, and he brings a straight talking, deeply strategic approach to sales leadership. This is going to be a good one. How are you, jt?
John Turner:Thanks, sean, and thank you for that introduction, as I like to say, that's an introduction that my father would have appreciated and my mom might have actually believed, so thank you for that.
John Hitchen:No problem, no problem. Look, it's great to have you today. Why don't we give you an introduction from your side to the listeners? Do you want to give us a bit of a whistle? Stop tour of the career to date.
John Turner:Yeah, I thought you gave a great overview. I think the thing that I like to talk about most, that defines who I am and my career, is really, as I like to call it, photographs with groups of people having accomplished something. So this goes all the way from my days of playing basketball playing collegiate basketball to, as you said, you know, gartner and Symantec, and trying out some of the other companies Google where I had the opportunity to lead some teams, either be a participant or lead teams that went on to do great things. So that's what drives me and that's really, I think, the thread you would pull through my career is there's always a kind of a photograph, as I like to say, with a trophy, a victory or something good having been accomplished as a team.
John Hitchen:Amazing, amazing. I always love your philosophy. Obviously, I had the chance to work with you for the past six months and really deep dive into some of your mantras, and I believe you're writing a book as well. Now Is that on the cards? I am.
John Turner:It's called Authentic Sales Leadership and you know it was really inspired by. When I first started my career. There were some books written by some practitioners that really struck with me on how you lead, how you operate in business, that really stuck with me and they were really lessons learned. They weren't written by you know, they weren't theory books. They were written by practitioners. And so I've written a book that takes my experience over the past 35 plus years in sales and sales leadership and helping to build teams and really share what I've learned over time. So I'm excited to publish it and it should be coming out in the middle of May.
John Hitchen:Exciting stuff. Well, I'll be sure to be getting a copy. But that brings us on to the podcast today. So I really want to focus on one of your strongest points sales leadership. So let's just take it back a little notch. You know from your point, jt, when did you get into sales leadership and why? Because sometimes what I see in go-to-market SaaS recruitment, you get a really solid rep who just does the numbers, enjoys it. Then you get those people who make that jump into sales leadership and it's a completely different ballgame. So yeah, you know, from your side, it would be good to learn about that leap into sales leadership and it's a completely different ballgame. So, yeah, you know, from your side, it would be good to learn that about that leap into sales leadership.
John Turner:It's such a great question, john, because I think a lot of sales leaders sales managers really, as I would call it are not really prepared to take the job. So, as you said, the top person gets thrown into the job. And you know, as I like to say, frontline leadership is the hardest job in a company, any company, whether it's a startup or whether it's a big company. And so, you know, when I started at Gartner as a sales rep, I had a burning desire to really advance my career, and the way I saw the opportunity to advance it was through sales leadership and kind of rising up through the sales leadership chain. And so you know, first of all, I was maniacally driven to deliver results as a sales rep and prove my mettle. But what Gartner had as well is they had some great sales managers and leaders who really showed the fundamentals of how to be a sales manager and how to be a sales leader, and they really demonstrated how to do the role.
John Turner:At the same time, during while I was a rep, I was selected into a little program that had been created called the Management Awareness Program. That really taught us how to be a frontline sales manager and some of the things we knew we needed to know to be in that job and I have to say, the role modeling that I saw from the managers there, the training that I got and it was built by the sales managers to teach and prepare people to be a sales manager really prepared me for that moment when my manager moved on to another company and the VP of the Western US brought me into a room and said you're the new manager of the team. And so I would just say it's something that's important in my programs when I'm leading a sales program is to really develop the next generation of leaders. So when we were at Symantec, we built a program called the Braveheart Program.
John Turner:When I was at Trinet, we built another sales and sales leadership, sales development high potential program and I've carried that with me because I really do believe that sales management is a hard job and the more I can teach and prepare people and it's why, when I was at Google, I actually wrote a 10-week sales manager program called Lighthouse and I was really pleased that the first people that I six people that I started with at Google in the project we were working on, who went through that Lighthouse program, all became managers at Google and have since gone on to do great things, so they had the talent. I just laid out how to do the job and I call it management versus leadership. I think that's another important point to make, amazing.
John Hitchen:Yeah, I think when I look and I speak to lots of sales leaders and managers across the industry that I always find there's two kinds. There's people who are just uniquely good at it right, and they can go into a business and they can put their own philosophy and mantras out there. And then the others who are also good at it, but they can document it and it sounds like you've been a part of programs and building infrastructure to enable more managers and they say a good manager is a good manager when you can produce another good manager. So clearly that works. And let's move on to some of those areas around key lessons or key moments which are important for you. I think from my side you know I lead a much smaller team than you have, but I always have a saying. You know I inspect what I expect and with all my reps, I guess for you what are some of the key lessons? That's helped sort of shaped your approach.
John Turner:Yeah, I love that. So I talk a lot about the truth is in the field. To me, what I've learned over time and really what I add to that, it's the truth is in the field. The best ideas are in the room. To me, the most important plans and the most important things that go on are really at the point of contact with customers, prospects and partners. So the people that are actually on the front lines to me really inform how you build plans, how you move forward and how you run your program.
John Turner:Because I've seen a lot of plans and a lot of leaders kind of sit in their ivory tower and kind of make up ideas and come up with big plans and grandiose plans and when I've done that the plans usually fail. When I engage the field, when I get out there in the field and actually visit with customers, partners and prospects, when I listen to the field, when I listen to my frontline leaders and actually engage them in building plans and programs, they seem to be much more successful and actually what I would call anti-fragile. So the truth is in the field. I once had a sales rep at one of my companies and I love this. He said JT, someday your epitaph on your gravestone will be the truth is in the field. And I kind of said, yeah, it probably will be, or maybe the truth is under the field, but yeah, I'd say that's one of my biggest guiding principles. I have a bunch of others about people and talent and others, but I think the one core to me is the truth is in the field.
John Hitchen:Yeah, yeah, I can 100% agree with you. For me, you know, every quarter I like to. You know I manage a bunch of recruiters but I always like to fill one role myself. Just keeps me ear to the ground what are the audience saying? What are the clients saying? And you, to the ground what are the audience saying what are the clients saying? And it helps you bring in the go-to-market strategy. So 100% agree with you. I guess you mentioned something earlier about sales leadership and sales management. I guess let's define what the difference is and what great sales leadership and management is.
John Turner:Yeah, thanks for picking up on that, John. So management to me is like until you learn how to manage, you can't really be a leader. And this is something that I make a. I think words matter and so often people who start in their career say, hey, it starts with leadership.
John Turner:The books that I read all say leadership, but to me, if you want to be a great leader, you know you need to know how to be a great manager, especially in sales. So you need to understand the craft of not only how to be a great salesperson but how to be a great manager, which means the four key roles of a sales manager are coach and counselor, sales strategist, chief inspiration officer and talent magnet. I think you have to master those four, because if you do master those four as a manager, you're then going to be looked at as a leader, and I think what happens in some cases is someone says, hey, I'm the leader, but they don't really know the nuts and bolts of how to do the job, and I think it ultimately holds them back. So that's why I say it's sales management and then we'll get to the leadership after that. So it's to me a very important point, and I think it gets missed quite often, so I appreciate you catching that one, john.
John Hitchen:No, of course, and I love it. You know, you become a sales manager, you get those four pillars correct, firing in all cylinders, and then you're looked at as a sales leadership.
John Turner:I guess sales leadership is earned, not demanded, it's so true, I'm sorry to interrupt you, but it's so true because I remember when I first started managing I didn't really know how to be a manager and you know I had received some training, but until you get into it you really don't know. And I got a lot of great coaching. I had a lot of great mentors who helped me. And you know, if you come in thinking you're the leader, I don't think it. And I think I did that and I look back on it and I don't think it was really the right approach.
John Turner:I think the right approach was prove yourself as a manager, build trust and credibility with your team, and they'll call you a leader. You won't call yourself a leader. So I think that's a lesson. And you know, to this day I use the word leader very carefully because I never assume that everybody's going to follow me just because I'm the head of the. You know I'm at the, you know at the lead of the organization. I think leadership is earned at the leader of the organization. I think leadership is earned. It's definitely earned.
John Hitchen:Agreed, 100% agreed, and I guess leadership comes with long-term goals. In my opinion. You know when you earn that you've proven something, maybe a year or two, three years. So if I'm a sales manager and my first role maybe my second role, how do you balance those short-term targets of sales management to those long-term targets of sales leadership?
John Turner:Yeah, yeah, I learned this one back in my day. There was a chief revenue officer who said you know, strategic is end of the quarter, visionary is next quarter. And I think it's always stuck with me that frontline sales managers really should be focused on the quarter and the next quarter and really focused on delivering short-term results. And as you kind of rise up through the organization as far as responsibility, that mix of strategic thinking versus tactical execution kind of changes. So, as I say, a frontline sales manager is probably 80% tactic, short-term focus and then 20% maybe strategic thinking longer term, especially around making sure they have the right talent. But as you get to managers and managers, as you get to regional leaders, as you get up to chief revenue officer, really the execution for a chief revenue officer should probably be 60%, 70% strategic and 20% to 30% tactical.
John Turner:So there's always an element to make sure you're delivering this quarter, you're in place to deliver next quarter, you're thinking about the second half of whatever your fiscal or whatever it is. You're always thinking and rolling, but then you're always setting things up thinking in the long term. So an example of that is a company that wants to and I'm on the board of a company that wants to someday take themselves public. Well, I think about where are you today, what is the structure, the process, the program, the people that you have in place today? And then where are you going to be and where do you need to be two to three years? And so what are the things that I can put in place, or that we can put in place today that will set us up for the future? And I think one of the best examples of that was when we were at Google X. I started with six people and it was a very small team, but we built the foundation from the get-go the right way so that when we grew ultimately to well over 200 million and a global organization, the foundations that we had built were intentionally built to grow and scale with the organization.
John Turner:So I think often people say to me, especially earlier in their career hey, I want to be strategic. And what I say is, if you want to be strategic, demonstrate short-term execution that you can actually get things done. Because to me, a real strategic person is somebody who can connect strategy execution, pull the two of them together and ensure they get executed. So I think there's a misunderstanding of like, hey, I want to be strategic. I get it, I appreciate it. On the other hand, if you can connect execution and strategy, I think now you're a real strategic thinker, because I know a lot of leaders who they come up with these grand strategies but they never come to fruition, or they come up with the new flavor of the month. So the strategy they had this. I remember some sales leaders, some CROs I've worked for where it's like what's the new thing this year? And there was never looking back at what did we learn from the previous program, the previous strategy, and what are we going to do to build upon it?
John Hitchen:Yeah, I love that. I think you know what I thought of. There is, as you were talking to me, my brain is sort of on mapping and thinking about it is you've got to be a leader with the North Star. Here's the vision of where the company is going, and you've ultimately built a roadmap from day one that says right, these are the things we're going to do. But the infrastructure is there and you understand, the building blocks are building blocks and any team can be motivated tactically because you might have a great market and a great product and you know your outreach and closing. But what's the North Star? What's taking you to be number one and that gives you that little competitive edge to get the team on all cylinders. So I love that.
John Hitchen:Just the last one, a little bit on some of the fundamentals, and I think this is something sales leaders always never think about. Managing down is like the first thing you think of, but managing upwards also creates a great sales manager leader. But managing upwards also creates a great sales manager leader. So what's your experience, you know, at the start of your career to now, about managing upwards, Because I'm sure you manage. You know CRO, sorry CEOs, VC boards, etc. So I'd love to get your insights on that.
John Turner:Yeah, this is really important and this is something I've learned over time. I almost get a little bit of embarrassed when I think about kind of earlier in my career as a manager, because I kind of thought it was a bit of a political situation where if you go out there and you meet with people and you get to know them and you, you know, build relationships, that alone will kind of advance your career. And I kind of look back on that. It was very self-centered and it was very, very much about me and what's interesting, I kind of fast forward now that I'm a leader of organizations and it comes off very clearly when someone's kind of interested in their own interests and it's all about them. And I think it was a bit of an immature approach. And what I've learned over time is the more that I deliver and my teams deliver results and I ensure that results are delivered, the more that I'll be known, the more that my team will be moaning. And, quite frankly, the more that I promote my people and the more that my people succeed and my team succeed, the more it's reflection on myself. One thing I say to my teams is someone will say, hey, that was a great board presentation or hey, that was a great all hands presentation on what we've done. And, as I tell my team, I'm only as good as the story they write for me, and so I think they have to understand that I'm only as good as what they do and what they deliver, have to understand that I'm only as good as what they do and what they deliver. I can, you know, put you know, I can put perfume on the proverbial pig and say, okay, the results weren't great, and make it look good, but ultimately it's going to be my team and the results that we deliver that's going to determine, kind of how I advance in my career.
John Turner:So what I say to people earlier in their career is don't worry about making yourself known and making yourself visible. If you're somebody who leads teams that deliver results and builds great people and does great things in the market, I'm going to find you. So I think this idea of having to think, oh, I have to be more visible, I have to be a politician, I have to do these things I think delivering results is what opens the door. Now I also do think that it's up to leaders to promote their people.
John Turner:So I know of some leaders that really don't promote their people. They take credit for everything. They take people for granted. They don't really treat people in a diverse environment in the way that, quite frankly, they need to be treated to be successful and they hold people back. So I understand that. But I think a good leader promotes their people and gives them kind of the room and the you know the room and the visibility because they know they see the talent. So I guess what I'd say to someone early in your career we're delivering results and building great teams, people are going to find you and you know. So don't worry about the politics, worry about the results. Everything else will follow from that.
John Hitchen:I love it. I love it. You've got to give people the pedestal, the platform to perform and, as you say, you worded that so well the better they do, the better your legacy is. So I'm sure it's going to be one hell of a sales book coming out this year, but let's talk about building the team that moves us on quite nicely. So I'm a sales manager. I'm hiring my reps from scratch, so talent acquisition isn't quite yet one of those cylinders that you said you've got to get right. What do you look for in reps, right? What's important to you when you're bringing reps onto your team?
John Turner:Yeah, it's so good and this is one of the things I have to say. You know, working with Strive, how great it was to work together because I think we got really well aligned in how we were looking for talent. Y'all really did a nice job. There's four things I look for in a frontline, in a sales rep. I call it the four legs of a table. One I look for traits. I want competitiveness, curiosity, intelligence, teamwork, drive those types of traits I want likability I want.
John Turner:The second leg of the table is business acumen. I want them to understand how a business operates and what are the inputs and outputs that drive a business. Third thing is I want technology acumen. I want them to not only be curious and interested in technology, I want them to be very comfortable using technology. And then the fourth leg is I want someone who has kind of what I would say sales process orientation. I think sales is a process. Whether you're doing a SMB, working on an SMB deal, or whether you're working on the largest large enterprise deals, there's a process. Some of it can be more complicated, but ultimately you're going from A to B with a prospect or a partner or a customer. And so those are the four things that I look for.
John Turner:Now, as I like to say, a table is very strong if it has all four legs.
John Turner:So if a candidate demonstrates to me and I have an interview process that we actually work together where I look at their traits and I look at their skills and kind of put those two together to form these four legs, if they have the four legs, that's going to be a great candidate. A table can stand with three legs. So if three of those legs are particularly strong, the fourth leg usually you can train, teach or overcome through other areas. I mean I prefer all four, but I'll take three if the other three are really strong and we can develop the others. If you don't have those, you're probably not going to be a good candidate. And the other one that's a non-negotiable is traits. If you don't have the right traits for sales and I've seen plenty of the wrong traits around sales for many different reasons You're not going to have the right person. So those are the things I look for in a rep and really my inspection processes around traits and skills to kind of connect to those four key areas.
John Hitchen:I love it. The four legs really helps me sort of evaluate people the way you said that as well. Sometimes you can look at reps and they can do something so well, they can articulate a sales process so well, you become a little blindsided like, oh, I have to have this person. But being able to analyze them across the table and say, can this person support themselves? Metaphorically, just gives you that really good understanding if you want them in your team. So I think that's a great, great way to look at it. Once you've created the team right and you say you bring in your first four or five reps, culture is really important. Accountability, learning, performance you know really three strong areas I'd look at. I guess for you creating a culture, what's important? And the last thing I'll ask on it is because of the modern day, you know we're all a lot of people are remote now and it's much harder to cultivate a culture, I think. So we'd love to get your sort of thoughts on creating the culture within the sales team.
John Turner:Yeah, this is so important because I think, of the things that I do as a sales leader, culture is probably the most important of all of it and really to me, culture means people and it means myself as a manager and a leader and kind of what is the environment that I create. So I think it starts with what do you believe in? Now, obviously, you're part of a bigger organization, so you want to understand either the company or, if it's a sales organization, what is their culture? What is the culture of the leader? Do they have a culture? Some have a very distinct culture and some, you know, kind of let the cultures create themselves or whatever, and some can be positive, some can be negative. I mean there's all kinds of different things going on. You want to make sure, first of all, you're consistent with that, but then, second of all, you want to build a culture within your team and you want to build a team identity. And I think a lot of that starts with yourself, like, what do you believe in? What's important to you? What motivates you? What inspires you as a leader? What is the environment you want to build?
John Turner:Because the reason why my book is entitled Authentic Sales Leadership is early in my career, you were taught to kind of put on this mask of like hey, you have to behave this way because this is the way a leader behaves and it wasn't necessarily aligned with who you were as a person. And I think what's come out over time, which I it's a authenticity and who you are is appreciated. So I believe the truth is in the field. I believe in unlocking the golden people. I believe in seeing people do things they thought were otherwise impossible. I love to see people grow and develop. I love to win. You know, I love being out in the market. So there's things you're going to get with me and the way I lead that. Then I'm looking for the team to say, ok, this is how I lead, this is my program. Hopefully this inspires you and this attracts you, which is ties into the chief inspiration officer and talent magnet. If those things inspire you, let's be part of the team and let me understand who you are, who you bring together. Let's be part of the team and let me understand who you are, who you bring together, and then through kind of process, through relationships, you're getting to know each other. You start to build a culture. You know collaborative teamwork culture driven by accountability.
John Turner:So now the accountability part gets into. What are our goals? What are our objectives? How do I put a process into in place to understand and inspect what's going on? I agree what's measured gets managed. What's managed would get measured. I agree 100% with that. So if you create a positive culture where you believe in the gold and the best in everyone and you combine that with accountability that says, hey, these are our targets, this is what we're committing to do, these are our goals. We measure, manage and inspect and when we're off course, we work together as a team to get on course. When we're off course and can't get on course, then maybe we've got some issues.
John Turner:Here you create that type of an accountable team that can start all the way from. Like, if I were to take a frontline team, I would build that accountability and that culture and it goes all the way up through to the CRO. So when I lead as a CRO, I want that similar culture going through the entire organization. So no matter what team you go to, there's a different flavor, potentially based on the leader and based on the market and what they're trying to do, but there's a consistency in the overall culture and what you're doing. And so I think, as a frontline leader, building that type of culture, that identity, that spree to core, attracting people that fit in that team, is the mark of a great manager and, ultimately, the mark of a great leader.
John Turner:And not easy to do, difficult to do, but it starts from knowing who you are and what makes you tick, because if you're not consistent with that, it's going to come out in today's world and that's where the remote stuff comes into play. You have to connect with people even more than you did before. You have to be intentional about connecting. I learned this in COVID. Like there was no playbook on how to deal with a pandemic.
John Turner:It was a paranormal, paranormal whatever world, and what I learned out of that is vulnerability, connecting with people, being intentional with my connection, because you can't just do the hey, we're walking and we see each other in the break room together. You really have to create those moments where you connect and you know. For instance, I was talking to someone yesterday and she's going to be joining my team and I want to know who she is, what makes her tick, what inspires her, what demotivates her, what is her aspirations, what are her goals, why does does she do things? Because you've got to connect even more with your people, into their hearts, so not only the mind but the heart, and I think that's something that has changed in this world. That, um, if you ignore, you kind of ignore it at your own peril, I think, because if you manage the way you were in today's world, even if we're going to hybrid or going back to full time in the office, I just think the world has changed too much to behave as it was in the past.
John Hitchen:Yeah, Some brilliant nuggets in there. I think a couple of things stood out to me. Winning the heart and not just the mind is probably an overlooked factor. Right, you can look at yourself as a sales manager and think, well, I've got a performing team, I must be doing well. But have you got the hearts as well? Do you know your team one-to-one? And sometimes, as a manager, you are the ears of all the problems as well, not just work-wise. You want to be able to be approachable. But love, I love to talk about culture, non-negotiables.
John Hitchen:I used to work in a business and it was a really small detail and it was a sales floor of 100 people, but everybody was on the sales floor for 8 30 in the morning. No one was late, you were on the phone. It was a culture back, you know, 15 years ago, and you kind of took your lunch times together and one o'clock you were back at your desk and the phones were going. And that was just a small fraction of the culture, but it trickled in every team across the entire sales floor. Um, so it's definitely easy to mess up and hard to get right, but one of the main, main parts um, you make a great point on that.
John Turner:I mean, you know, look at this, this you said it was what 10 or 15 years, and here you are talking about something like that. I mean that leader intentionally was setting like they were intentional, and that's where I think it ties into being authentic. There are things that I do and I often say, hey, there's a method to the madness. Now, it might be madness, but there was a method to it which means, as a manager, as a leader, we have to be intentional about what we're doing so that whoever that manager, that leader or that team was was being very intentional about setting a tone of probably being precise, being on time, demonstrating the value of prospecting, demonstrating the value of teamwork. I mean, there's so many things that you unpack from things like that. That kind of are hallmarks of the culture you want to build and, by the way, if you're unintentional about it, you're going to do the same thing.
John Turner:So if you're, you know, for instance, if you get mad at people when they give you bad news you've now created a culture of fear where people are not going to give you the news, where people are not going to give you the news If people.
John Turner:If you're yelling at people for not, you know, for not doing what they said they were going to do in front of a group of people, you now created culture moments and this is what people identify in the culture, and so you know being intentional and saying, hey, everybody starts at 830. And if you don't, you're going to, you know, and a new person comes on board and says, okay, we start on time around here, I got it. Must mean they're buttoned up, must mean they're precise, must mean they focus on execution. Those are moments that kind of demonstrate the team you're joining. And I tell people who say they're going to join a company in sales, look at the CRO and look at their program and their track record, because that's what you're joining. If you're joining a good CRO, they have a track record of building cultures and you want to decide whether you want to be part of it or not.
John Hitchen:Yeah, 100%. I think we've had some really good perspective here around being a sales manager on a new team. We talked about creating the sales culture, but I want to ask one question around whether you inherit a team or this problem. So let's talk about a real world leadership problem that's challenged you and how you overcame it, because it doesn't always go smoothly right. There are ups and downs and that's part of sales and sales leadership. So, yeah, I'd love to understand some real world experiences from you.
John Turner:Yeah it's. You know. It kind of makes me laugh when a sales leader or someone will say I've never missed a number. I remember someone saying that to me I've never missed a number. And I thought, okay, and I've looked back on that comment and I'm like, if you're in sales and you say you never miss a number, either you're a liar or you didn't go into sales like you're going to miss, you're going to make mistakes, you're going to screw up Like it's not. You know, I had a board member when I was at Trinet, a very, a very experienced and kind of, you know, respected figure in Silicon Valley, who said you know, we were having lunch one day and he said JT, no line is linear to the upper right. I mean, no line goes to the upper right uncontinued, and so I think, you know, I get the phone call usually when things aren't working, so I don't get the call. Hey, jt, I'm interested in looking. You know, having you look at our opportunity, because everything's going so great and we just want you to run it Like I get the messes and that's cool, I get it.
John Turner:I have a program and a process of how I take on things. I think the biggest thing is you gotta. You gotta have kind of a curiosity and open-mindedness. If you come into a problem situation and you come in and just start telling everybody what to do and not listening, truth is in the field, I think you quickly. One thing is you lose credibility because people say you don't even know what you're talking about. And two, you come off as authoritarian. You come off with knowing all the answers. You come off with truth is not in the field, truth is with me. And so I'd say to anybody in a new role, like, let the team know who you are.
John Turner:I have a document actually that I've created. That's like a three slide document. Who am I? What do I? What do I like? What motivates me? Why am I doing what I'm doing? What is my personality type? So people get to know me. How do I make decisions? So, coming in and getting people comfortable with who I am and then figuring out who they are like and what's going on and what the situation is.
John Turner:And I think it's hard because you're often put into situations where you've got to turn things around quickly, especially as a frontline leader, often frontline manager but you've got to assess the situation and then you've got to have a plan. That's the other thing. People do not appreciate somebody coming in even if you take the time to learn what's going on and now shooting from the hip and doing all kinds of things. They want to know what to expect.
John Turner:So what I like to do, like I said, is I say here's who I am and I go through my kind of who am I document. I then go through a process like where am I going to spend my time and how I'm going to learn about what's going on is like where am I going to spend my time and how I'm going to learn about what's going on. Then what I do is I create a hundred day plan where I say these are the three to five things I'm absolutely going to execute upon and these are kind of how I'm going to prioritize it in my calendar. This is how I'm going to double click, you know, kind of act on it and make sure that these things are all green.
John Turner:When you come in with kind of a here's who I am, here's who I am, here's how I'm going to collect the data of what the situation is and then here are the priorities that I'm going to deliver on in 100 days to make sure that things are going in the right direction, and I'm going to walk you through everything, through every step, through that step of the way. You've now created a culture, and I think you've you've you started to create a culture of like okay, this is what this person stands for, this is how they operate and this is what they're going to do. And now I now understand what to expect, and that's something that's taken a long time to learn how to do this, but I think anybody, whether you're new at management, can kind of learn this kind of a process that I've learned and it's one of the things I talk about in my book that I'm trying to share of the lessons I've learned.
John Hitchen:Amazing. You know what. There was so much in there that was pragmatical around resolving a situation Someone from like yourself with experiences brought into, not crisis, but we need help. The one key thing I took away there is you've got to know yourself. And I'm like you, jt, like when I make decisions in life. I have it and I have it written on my phone. I have seven rules that I live by and I think to myself does this fit into my criteria of who I am and I'm going to make this decision? Is it a reflection of me? And then you know everything you said there around the three to five initiatives and executing. It is so pragmatical is what it is, but you've really got to know yourself, because that will echo through on it. So, so, no, look, I'm going to wrap up with our last question. Um, I think you're obviously writing the book at the moment the authentic sales leader, really excited to read it. You know what? What are some of the?
John Hitchen:the best books that you've read and would recommend that you think readers should also probably pick up.
John Turner:Well, you know this is so good. I talk about this in my book. When I first started in my career, especially in the business world, I read a ton of business books. Like I just read business books and I had a mentor who said, jt, like, stop reading business books and read history, because if you want to get the greatest leadership lessons, read history. And it was such a great lesson because I talk about this in the book.
John Turner:There's so many history books that I've read that when you get into a historical situation or you get into a business situation, go to history, because and what are some examples? Okay, playing the enemy about Nelson Mandela and what he did when he was during his time in prison in Robben Island and how he ultimately became the leader of South Africa and what he did. It's one of the greatest personal leadership interaction books I've ever read on how to build personal relationships. I read Team of Rivals about Abraham Lincoln and how, when he won the election, he actually took the people who he had defeated in the election many of them and brought them into his cabinet because he thought they were incredibly talented people and wanted to bring them in. It's an amazing story. I read that book before I went to Europe. I love a book. There's a book about Franklin Roosevelt's first 100 days and what he did in his first 100 days as a president, which is often recognized as one of the best first hundred days of any president in American history.
John Turner:I've read.
John Turner:You know, when we were going through the pandemic I read Winston Churchill's biography because I was reading about how, at the lowest time of the war, how he came in and rallied, rallied not only England but the allies through his resolute behavior, and I learned kind of how you need to be resolute with the team through a terrible tragic situation like COVID and like the pandemic was.
John Turner:So I've got a list of these books that are historical books that are just amazing, that apply directly, and I could go on and on from other heroes that I have, like George Washington. I mean I could just go on with leaders and history books where I can really apply them. I love the invasion of Normandy and that whole story and how the logistics of it and how that was all put together in success and how logistics drives a successful sales organization and why sales operation and talent and other areas are so important. So you kind of got me rolling on that one, john. I can go on and on. There's a list of great, great history books and biographies that really taught me a lot.
John Hitchen:I'm heading on some PTO in the next couple of weeks and I was thinking around books to read. I never thought of reading the history rather than reading the philosophy, so I think I'll be picking one of those up for sure. But I've really enjoyed having you on to JT a bunch of golden nuggets. I'm going to pick out my three key takeaways I took from this conversation. The first you become a sales manager to become a sales leader, and that's you know. Sales leadership is earned. That was my number one. Four I think I loved your analogy of the four legs of the table around recruitment. You know you've got to look at traits business acumen, tech acumen and sales process and within that there are non-negotiables. And finally, I think the one that hit home for me was the culture of managing a team. Don't just win the minds but win the hearts, and that's all about caring. So fantastic to have you on today. Looking forward to reading your book and appreciate it, jt, thank you, john.
John Turner:It was a pleasure and, by the way, it was just a pleasure to work with you and the team, and whoever's listening to this should check out Strive, because this is completely unsolicited. I had a great experience in finding talent with you and, as I like to say, you've become a member of the JT Posse now. So thank you for that, john. Appreciate it.
John Hitchen:Thanks for listening. I hope you enjoyed today's episode. Don't forget to subscribe and if you want more information about the podcast, head over to our website Scale with Drive.
