Scale with Strive Podcast
Welcome to the Scale with Strive podcast - the place where you come to listen to some of the worlds most influential leaders in the SaaS industry!
Scale with Strive Podcast
'From Boardroom to Sales Floor: Aligning Teams with Company Vision' with Niall Carey
📢 Welcome to Season 3 of the 'Scale with Strive Podcast' - the place to come to listen to some of the world's most influential leaders of the SaaS industry. 🚀
Our host today is Adam Richardson and on today’s episode, we are excited to welcome Niall Carey, Founder at Fractal Advisory.
After 15+ years leading high-performing sales teams in organisations such as DocuSign and Salesforce, Niall has now transitioned into fractional leadership to help ambitious companies scale smarter and faster.
As a Fractional CXO / VP of Sales, he partners with Founders, CEOs, and Investors to:
✅ Build and scale sales teams to consistently hit targets
✅ Design and execute Go-To-Market strategies
✅ Drive predictable, sustainable revenue growth
✅ Coach and mentor emerging sales leaders
✅ Prepare organisations for expansion and growth
Today, we focus in on aligning sales teams with the Company Mission and Vision and some of our key takeaways from the conversation were:
💡 The disconnect between Vision and Action
💡 Storytelling as a Leadership tool
💡 Embedding the Company Vision in Sales Teams – and making it personal to them
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Connect with Niall here - https://www.linkedin.com/in/niallcarey/
Connect with Adam here - https://www.linkedin.com/in/saasheadhunter/
Learn more about Strive here - https://scalewithstrive.com/
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0:00. Introduction to Vision Alignment Challenge
5:42. The Disconnect Between Vision and Action
11:34. Making Vision Personal to Sales Teams
16:20. Storytelling as a Leadership Tool
22:37. Embedding Vision in Sales Culture
27:30. Aligning Compensation with Company Goals
32:50. Leadership Training and Crisis Management
37:00. Rapid-Fire Leadership Insights
Welcome to the Scale with Strive podcast, the place where you come to listen to some of the world's most influential leaders of the SaaS industry. So welcome to the Scale with Strive podcast. Today we're going to be digging into a question that many sales leaders probably struggle with, and that's all around how to get your teams to understand the company vision, mission and values, but not just about caring about them, but ultimately how to act and behave and be bought into them. So today I'm welcomed with Niall Carey. So, niall, thank you so much for joining.
Speaker 2:Pleasure Adam Great to be here.
Speaker 1:Yeah, good stuff. So quick introduction, niall. It'd be great, great to be here. Yeah, good stuff. So quick introduction, nile. It'd be great for you to introduce yourself. But you know, quick highlights what? Nearly 13 years at Salesforce, coming up to three and a half four years at DocuSign. You've had an incredible run. But yeah, for those that are listening that don't know you, do you want to just give us a quick overview, a bit of background?
Speaker 2:Absolutely, adam. Yeah, by way of introduction, niall Carey, I've had the chance to lead sales teams for many, many years across companies as you mentioned like Salesforce and DocuSign, and more recently I've moved into working with some startup scale-ups and SaaS businesses as a fractional CRO. My focus now is very much in helping businesses to grow, to scale in a smart, sustainable and really kind of strong-rooted and team alignment. And one thing that I really care about, adam and you and I spoke about this is how do the leaders connect the dots between that company vision and what actually matters to the reps, because that's where the magic happens and where the impact happens. So it's easy for all that strategy to live in the boardroom, but very abstract, but much harder for it to be part of the day-to-day. So, looking forward to this topic, Definitely.
Speaker 1:But no, I think it's always enjoy my conversations with you, niall, so I'm really looking forward to hearing your take on this and ultimately how you've helped to articulate and communicate that kind of overarching vision and mission for the business but ultimately help align your know, align your team so that they're motivated and engaged to sort of execute that vision and mission.
Speaker 1:So I suppose you know, to start the conversation, I think it'd be good to understand, like, where the gap is. You know, as you mentioned, vision, mission, values they can often live in the boardroom but not always, you know, being demonstrated and live day to day on the sales floor and these are often the guiding principles which help to shape the culture of your business. And you know people are very familiar with the phrase, you know culture eats strategy for breakfast, each strategy for breakfast, and without having a clearly defined and really strong culture, you know strategies aren't necessarily going to get you to that. You know market leading vendor, that market leading status. So I think, why do you think it's so common that frontline reps and you know frontline individuals generally, you know, can sometimes feel disconnected to the broader company mission?
Speaker 2:Yeah, for me it's quite evident. It's because sales is immediate, it's instant gratification and it's all around deals, it's around targets, around the weekly number and huge pressure to perform and the company vision can sometimes feel a bit distant, a bit far off, and that vision is not immediate. So it's very difficult for the leaders to put in the effort to make that relatable and if they don't put in the effort, reps just tune out. So, um, what I've seen over time is and you'll know adam, at the moment, right, it's pretty intense out there at the moment, so everyone's trying to, in survival mode, trying to hit those numbers. So, um, I don't think reps have been negative by not embracing it. I think they've been practical. But it's really important that the managers, the leaders, are very clear on how to make that personal and if they can do that, I think they'll make that strong connection and establish a why and that ultimately leads to high performance.
Speaker 1:Yeah, and I think that's really important because you've got peaks and troughs in sales. You know you've got peaks and troughs in sales. You've got market dynamics and I think, if I think about my business, there's times where I've been really good at sort of articulating and communicating the mission of the business. If you think about during COVID, where you've really got to get your arms around people to keep them motivated and convinced that there's light at the end of the tunnel. And then you've got times when you're absolutely flying and it's all celebrations. You know we're the best, you know high fives everywhere. But then you know, when you're just sort of sat in the middle of the road, how'd you find that right kind of balance, I think. Can you think about a moment in your career where you've realized that the message from you know, the top sort of executive leadership, hasn't necessarily been landing with the front line?
Speaker 2:Yeah, yeah, and a lot of this is context. I mean, I was a rep, I was carrying a bag for many, many years and language like total addressable market growth didn't matter to me, right? So in many ways I need to understand, ok, well, a am I feeling like I'm high performing and I'm going to make more money? B do I feel insecure and feel like a pip or a performance plan is on the way and it's that fight or flight piece, right? So it's really, really important what really resonated. I've worked with some incredible leaders over the years Adam and those that made it very personal to me where I could really see how this impacted my career and my commission and I got the extra you know, extra percentage points.
Speaker 2:If I go back to my time in Salesforce, like Mark Benioff always had the V2 mom, which was kind of the guiding principles around the vision, the ambition of the company and what was done really really well in Salesforce was that cascaded right the way down the organization. So the alignment was there, but maybe it stopped at when it got to the account executive. So all the leaders knew exactly for their territory, for their region, what was the vision. You know what were the values, the measures, the opticals and the metrics, um. But it kind of stopped at the aes. So a couple of you know um, a couple of experiences over the number of years is the best managers brought it right down to the aes.
Speaker 2:So what's your vision for the year? What does good look like for you, what are the challenges you can anticipate and ultimately, if you get there, what does that feel like? And really kind of get them energized and hold them accountable to it, and I think that's a way that you, once you make it personal and make it matter to them. I think that's where you get not only just high attainment but you get loyalty and you get longevity and people staying with you as well yeah, I think you said something really key there.
Speaker 1:It's not just about you know what's that going to do for you, but you mentioned about how how's that going to make you feel, uh, and I think really tapping into the emotion is what can really be, um, you know, really move the needle when it comes to that kind of levels of motivation and engagement. I think, and I think sales Adam is?
Speaker 2:is that it's? You know, when it's good, it's really really good, and when it's bad, it's very hard to get out of it, right? No-transcript. The team know exactly what's expected. That allows them to at least be consistent and allows them to focus on the week ahead.
Speaker 1:Yeah, and I think, if I'm a leader listening to this and we're sort of setting the scene here around that kind of disconnect, what are some of the signs that you've seen, those kind of leading indicators that maybe there's a disconnect there?
Speaker 2:Yeah, a lot of this is down to listening, right. So I've seen a couple of times and again, you know I could have been quite a cynical rep as well in the days, right. So clearly, what I'm looking for is I want to see if people are second guessing. So if you're talking to AEs or you're overhearing AEs saying, look, I'm just focused on the number, that's a real sign that they're disconnected to the overall vision or the ambition or the growth. So if it's not bigger picture, it's not meaningful. So it's usually it's a messaging issue and not a motivational one. So capture that, think about the messaging again.
Speaker 1:And you know, just make sure you're getting that feedback continuously, because if the reps aren't getting it, the managers aren't getting it, something's wrong yeah, and do you find it's easier to like communicate that engage people, get people aligned in a like winning mindset versus a like losing mindset? Like where, where have you seen sort of the challenges and where things are maybe a lot easier to get people to think that kind of bigger picture?
Speaker 2:yeah, a lot of it stands to the narrative, the storytelling, right. So for for this is where I get huge energy from as well, and I get my teams to do it. So if I think back to when I was a rep, right so, as a rep, job was very simple. My job was to inspire a customer to see a better version of themselves and help them get there. As a leader, our job is to inspire the rep to see a better version of themselves and help them get there.
Speaker 2:And it can't be lost on it. Right so that you know language and words are powerful and if you can translate them down to a language they understand, that's a motive that's exciting, that's kind of encouraging, it carries a lot of weight. And so when we think about sco or one-to-ones or you know our weekly huddles again, the language, the messaging, has to connect with the aes, and that's tough for the managers, it's tough for the cro, it's tough for those in the middle, because for the cro, they're going to be saying the messaging that the board want to hear, but but the AEs in the first line, you've got to be talking the language they understand and it's getting that balance right.
Speaker 1:Yeah, and that's why it's so important to make sure you're getting the right kind of leaders in place, because typically your top top performing reps aren't always going to make the best leaders. It's a very different skill set. You mentioned about the ability to inspire others. That isn't always conducive with a top performing individual contributor who could just nail the number quarter on quarter. So I think the best leaders that I've worked with, when it's come to hiring their leaders within their organization, the ability to inspire and motivate has been a characteristic that they've assessed during the process. What's the storytelling like? How have they been able to articulate a vision and mission and really rally the troops, not purely based on numbers?
Speaker 2:It's great to hear that that's something similar to your experience yeah, and I'd also add as well you know, when you're talking to your first line leaders or your second line leaders, if they aren't able to articulate the vision in a way that is kind of relatable, they haven't made the connection. And that's a terrifying thing, because if they haven't made the connection, the cat executives have made the connection. So it's really important that you, you know, ensure that you're, when you're talking to your leaders in a one-to-one, just say to them look, do you want to articulate to me exactly what the vision means to you and how do you discuss it to your teams? And, um, sometimes it just needs a bit of rehearsing because, um, yeah, if it's not convincing and they're not bought into it, you know, a phrase I heard a long time ago is a leader casts a long shadow.
Speaker 1:Yeah.
Speaker 2:And if they don't have it, you know they're impacting quite a few people.
Speaker 1:Yeah, no, that's a great way of putting it. So I suppose, like you know, bridging that vision into action, then, and making it meaningful for salespeople, and making it meaningful for salespeople, how do you personally translate a big strategic goal into something that's going to resonate with frontline salespeople, people within your teams? Talk me through how you would go about doing something like that.
Speaker 2:Yeah, and this is the conduit right in between the two. So again, as a CRO or a VP, you're talking about time growth, rule of 40. You're talking around the lifetime value. You're talking around customer acquisition costs. But to the AEs and the first-line leaders it's very simple you talk about two things commission and career, and that's ultimately what gets them fired up. So, yeah, that's where I spend a lot of time.
Speaker 2:So I often ask myself, you know, before I deliver a messaging or a SCO, is this in a language that would excite the rep, that would get them bought into it, and can they clearly articulate to themselves or their colleagues as to what this means to them? So I often think around you know, will this open up more doors? Will this, you know? Will this, you know, earn them more commission? So say, Will this, you know? Will this, you know, earn them more commission? So say, for example, you know, and we may touch on compensation plan driving behavior later, Adam right, but for me it's really important that if one of the visions this year is to increase, you know, our share of wallet with clients, you know, and it should always be, by the way. But if that's the real goal for the year ahead.
Speaker 2:The reps need to understand what that means to them. So you know, multi-product selling means that the accounts are stickier. It means that the retention rate will be will be will improve. It'll mean the deal sizes are bigger, which means the commission checks will be bigger. So, if you can take it back to the end goal is that they make more money, they're happier in what they do and they have a career ambition. You know, just, you know, follow the money back and think about okay. So how do I articulate this in a way that they'll understand? But the answer is growth and revenue increase. Now the question is what's the story to drive that?
Speaker 1:Yeah, I think, like there's so many times I'll ask my team this, and it applies to not just motivating teams, it applies to just general sales. It's sort of asking yourself, if you're going to communicate something to someone, ask yourself before you do it so what? Who cares? Yeah, yeah, what does that actually mean to me? You're not answering those questions in your story, then it's not going to land. And I think if you understand what, the what it means to me and what's going to motivate, and you can tailor the way that you explain and and and articulate that kind of mission and tie it back to those individuals, you can make sure that something lands and it's hard, adam, it's hard right.
Speaker 2:So you know it's often we need to get a message out there, we need to respond quick and it's taking that moment. Look, okay, before I run off with this and, you know, shout at the team or whatever it may be, am I conveying a message that they will buy? And is this a message that they will buy? And is this a message that will keep them emotive and positive and ultimately help them, you know, be more productive and happier in what they do?
Speaker 1:Yeah, so what you've described there is quite tactical. It's like getting the bigger picture. Let's tie it down to like something specific and seemingly quite tangible. Now there's quite a famous quote which would probably say on the other side of the coin you know, if you want to build a ship, don't drum up men to gather wood and divide the work into and giving orders. Teach them to yearn for the vast oceans of the sea, or something like that. You know, not perfect quote. So, in terms of like storytelling and using that kind of bigger picture and tying it to something maybe a little bit more abstract, how have you used storytelling to motivate your reps?
Speaker 2:Yeah, I mean, that's what it's all about, right? So you know I spoke about, you know, the boardroom and the mission being quite abstract, and the best leaders are able to take that messaging, put it into a story, convey it to the teams and get them fired up. Right, and it should be done in a very kind of you know basic, you know rudimentary way. It's not to be complex or using you know vague or you know overly ambiguous words and so on, not to be complex or using vague or overly ambiguous words and so on. So storytelling is what it's all about. I love understanding how to deliver a message with the big reveal, the big excitement, right, and that's the piece that I think most master salespeople understand. And there was a we've gone off script a little bit here, Adam, but there was a. Fray tag was a particular. I don't know if you're familiar with the storytelling analogy. Fray tag is a particular framework of telling a story which allows you to talk around.
Speaker 2:Something's not right, For example, Shakespeare uses it, and guess what? George Lucas used it in Star Wars, right, Something's not quite right in the universe, right, A glimpse of a hero off in a distance somewhere, and then we come back down to what if that here, you know what if that impact doesn't happen? So it's almost like create this little bit of anxiety, give a sense of an outcome that's really exciting, then bring them back to normal again. They strive to get back to the exciting piece. It's the emotive story, so it's called freytag's triangle, um, and often you'll see it in shakespeare's plays or you'll see it in the likes of star wars. A lot of stories need to have a beginning, a middle and an end right, and it's that exciting journey, emotive journey around the big reveal. And that's not just around selling to clients, that's around motivating your teams. And I take storytelling very seriously because I often say to myself how do I want to leave this person feeling? And that's my beginning.
Speaker 1:Yeah, okay. Well, what about consistency? Because, again, as the vision, the mission, the values start to cascade down, as you've just described, something you take really seriously is that storytelling, and you've obviously got a little bit of a science behind it as well. For other leaders within the business that maybe aren't as attuned into storytelling, or maybe it's not like a natural skill set of theirs, and also the need for authenticity is super important as well, how would you ensure like consistency with the messaging across the different levels, even if people have their own sort of way of spinning things?
Speaker 2:levels, even if people have their own sort of way of spinning things. Yeah, um, and that's where repetition and rhythm really come into this right. So there's a certain amount. So I think around like the, you know the team communications, you know the enablement sessions, the one-to-ones. This is where we keep the message alive. So it's really important that it's not just we say it at sales kickoff and then we forget about it, like it's got to be really, you know um absolutely right.
Speaker 2:so by checking in with the team and understanding like I'll often ask the frontline leaders, you know, how are you explaining this to your teams? This will give me a good sense of whether it's sticking or not right. And and what I um what? What really worked for us previously was sometimes by kind of gamifying the vision. I'll give you an example. Um, you know, adam, you want to hit your number this year. You need 3x pipeline coverage. Okay, we know the amount of time it takes to close the deals.
Speaker 2:So often we'll take the vision, which is revenue growth, and we'll say to the sales teams okay, how do you hit your number this year? And they might say I'll do 8, 10k deals, I'll do 25, 25k deals, incremental run rate and one mega deal. That's how I hit my number. Amazing, what's your pipeline of stock? How much do you have right now? Okay, you got a gap. What are your priorities? So a lot of it is taking the vision, you know, making sure the team is very clear, consistently on how they do it, making sure the reps understand how they hit it, and then adding a little bit of kind of gamification to it as well to kind of keep the energy around it. That's worked really really well, but um, I think certainly every week it should be a consistent part of our, our, um, our behaviors and that keeps it alive.
Speaker 1:Yeah, so breaking down something big into something like bite size and then gamifying it absolutely, yeah, okay, and naturally, when you're dealing with people, particularly groups of people, large teams, you're always going to have the skeptics. Um, you know, there's always going to be someone out there that's going to poo-poo your kind of you visualize one person from your career when you say, that isn't it. There's a few, yeah, and some. You know what the thing that's quite frustrating is. Sometimes they are your top people yeah they're the skeptics.
Speaker 1:They're the kind of um you know, the the individuals that can sometimes have the biggest influence within the teams as well, um, because you know they do have that healthy skepticism. They are often a bit more, a bit sharper um than you know some of the other people within the team. So, like, how, how do you handle that?
Speaker 2:funny. It's back to school, back to classrooms, and alex isn't. It really is. Um, look, it's totally fair and honestly, you know that skepticism is sometimes a gift, um, because I've learned not to take this personally and what I've often seen is, um, the person that's pushing back they kind of care. You know now, there can be a cynic and can be difficult, but, as you say, some of the top performers can be difficult, but if they're, if they're vocalizing it, you know, take it as feedback because, um, I try to bring a lot of these voices in early because my message isn't always perfect and it's often refined. But if we can take the feedback pressure, test it and then include these people and say, look, I hear what you're saying, how would you change it? What would you do? What would land with you? And sometimes those cynics, skeptics, you bring them in. They can be your biggest champions and the biggest influences. You multiply it currently absolutely yeah, yeah.
Speaker 1:So so, um, yeah, I, I don't take it as as, as, um, I don't take it personally and I see as great, a great, uh, accelerator yeah, yeah, no, I can definitely think of a few over the years, but I think if you can get them on side and I think you know being quite cute about it pull people to a side, get them on board, get them as a bit of an advocate within the team. There's a bit of a additional kind of culture creator people that you know that have got big influence um pay special attention to those individuals to help them really, you know, get the message out as well and get them bought into it. It can, it can help um. Yeah, because that kind of skepticism as you said it's great feedback you know it can be quite undermining and I've seen that before as well, where one individual with a huge amount of influence and sway um can definitely undermine the message um, and you can see it, adam.
Speaker 2:Right, you can see it in the body language, how they interpret, whether it's, you know in a setting like this, you can see it. Or even you know when it's in in the office. You know the body language, the physiology, you'll see it. Yeah, and I think it's also on the leader to pick up on those little tells. And then just to john, hang on for a minute. I noticed this didn't necessarily hit with you. Do you want to give me some feedback?
Speaker 1:Yeah, yeah, definitely. So I think that's been a good way to discuss, like bridging, you know bridging the gap and you know tactically implementing those kinds of stories into connecting with the people on the front line. How do we really like embed it into our culture from a sales perspective? What kind of processes would you use or rituals that you'd use to reinforce that kind of alignment over time?
Speaker 2:And I kind of touched on it a moment ago around just my experience in Salesforce with the V2MOM. But you know, for me yeah, so it's an acronym for you know, if you take the vision for the year ahead, mark Benioff has it's pretty much an industry-wide acronym too. It's called the V2MOM. I mean it stands for visions, values, methods, obstacles and metrics. So, for example, what's the vision? You know what are our vision, you know what are our values, you know what are our metrics and how we measure, what are our obstacles that could challenge. And then how do we, you know, how do we measure our performance? And it's very much a guiding principle. But it's not just, you know, an ambition, it's also kind of a structure on how we're going to get there and some considerations on the way way. So you know I mentioned that I'm a big believer in that, but also I'm a big believer in rhythm. So we can't just, you know, do a big sales kickoff and then expect that just to land and then you forget about it right, so often you go to the big, big tech companies, go to vegas, do these big kickoffs, and I'm not going to suggest they don't hear about it again, but certainly certainly it diminishes over time. You need to make sure that you keep it alive.
Speaker 2:So I'm a big believer in what gets measured gets done. So let's put it out there, let's measure it and make sure we bring it into the KPIs, whether it's through pipeline reviews, one-to-ones, et cetera. So in the one-to-ones, yeah, there should be no surprises. Everyone should know what we're going to measure. Those kpis are important. And going back to the skeptics, sometimes you will get pushbacks, but over time you know constant reinforcement. Others keep measuring it and over time it becomes part of the norm. So I think for me that that's, that's a big piece around the uh reinforcement and I'd also say as well, just around um, depending on what the objective is. Um, it definitely should feature in your priorities meeting. It should should feature in your priorities meeting, it should definitely feature in your huddles and you should definitely celebrate it if it's meaningful. And I think that also drives um cascades across the org yeah, what.
Speaker 1:What role can like having a common enemy have in terms of really helping to embed something? I think one of the things I've always done with my team is to really embed that kind of vision of being the top player within the market, swallowing up market share, you know, to having a common enemy.
Speaker 2:Yeah.
Speaker 1:You know, if you think about football rivalry, derby days, that kind of thing, I think that creating that kind of rivalry that everyone can get around, yeah, yeah, you know you've had players at DocuSign which you've gone up against. You know quite directly similar with, you know, the Salesforce Like, has that ever played a part?
Speaker 2:100%. I love it. Yeah, I mean I love being the underdog as well. I love you know you need to find something that's going to drive it. And the very early days in Salesforce, like bearing in mind I joined in 2008,. You know the financial crisis was hitting. You know SaaS was only becoming. You know cloud computing was only becoming SaaS yeah, and yeah, we were driven by disruption positive disruption, it was amazing. Um, likewise with docusign as well. A lot of the time it was market leader. So how do we sustain and how do we make sure that we stay the dominant? How do we make our selling more elegant to really differentiate, and so on? So, yeah, I mean there's got to be that piece, because I think that keeps you honest as well yeah, no, I think it's.
Speaker 1:Think it's. I've always enjoyed that bit of you know, creating a common enemy and having a war cry about that's who we're gunning for or that's who's in our tail, whichever way you spin it. So have you seen effective ways that you can tie the mission into individual goals? You know you've talked about breaking down, like market share and time and stuff like that, into you know, commission and and and career for the individuals. But, like, talk me through that kind of set the science side behind it, how you could really tie it into specific metrics and goals yeah again and and this is something that you know my any rev ops team I've worked with, or compensation team.
Speaker 2:I'm very close because if it's important, we need to bring it into the comp plan, because compensation plans drive behavior. So and I don't mean this in a way that's manipulative, but it just shows we're serious about it. So, for example, if we want to prioritize growth in a particular client, increasing share or wallet, then we need to factor that in that. If we close more than two products at a time, you get accelerators. Or if we get a new logo, q1 is very important we pay 2x to drive that behavior. So it's really, really important. If it's important to us, it needs to feature in the compensation plan.
Speaker 1:Yeah.
Speaker 2:And that's where the account executives realize it's important to us. It needs to feature in the compensation plan. Yeah, and that's where the account executives realize it's important because, um, it's driving the right behaviors, um, the one caveat I'll say is, you know, there have been times we've had to change the compensation plan because, throughout the year, you know, you take some learnings and you may need to, you know, evolve it or iterate on it. But yeah, that's that's where I'd focus it's funny, isn't it?
Speaker 1:it's like you know water will always find it's. You know it's way, way down. Yeah, it's the same. The the, the way that the compensation plan is set up will always impact how people people behave.
Speaker 1:And I think you know, if I look at like recruitment, you typically you have what's called like a 360 recruitment consultant and then in our world we do it as a 180.
Speaker 1:And the behaviors that the 180 model encourages, outside of the benefits from a revenue perspective, are more around collaboration and teamwork and camaraderie, because people are working normally in pairs, whereas as a 360, whilst you're part of a team, you only really care about your desk, and I was taught a very quick lesson really care about your desk, and I was taught a very quick lesson in my, my introduction to sales and recruitment. I think within the first couple of months, one of my colleagues actually snaked me on a deal and I remember saying to her I was like I won't mention her name and I was like come on, there's. You know, there's no iron team here. There is there. She went, yeah, but there's two in commission. That was like right, that set the tone. But I think if I look at my business now and how the commission scheme set up, how we run our desks, how we service clients. It's all set up in a way that encourages the right kind of behaviors.
Speaker 2:So I think yeah, I'd definitely say if you want into impact and make a change on how people act and what what people are working and striving towards, align that to your overall business goals and vision and mission and reflect it in the commission plan and people will will definitely fall fall suit I think one thing that can't be overlooked, though, is explaining how the compensation plan works, because, um, to get that buy-in so something that's worked really well for myself and my leadership team over the years is, as soon as the compensation plan comes out, you schedule a two-hour session, which is how to make your number, and then you show them how they can make accelerated commissions.
Speaker 2:You'd be amazed how many AEs make bad judgment just to hit a number and don't set themselves up to maximize the earnings. And that's something that's really important, because, many years ago, I remember I had two reps who were in my org, and let's just make it simple, both did a million that year in terms of revenue, but one earned 70 grand more commission than the other, and that's because of how they structured it right. So it's really, really important, because salespeople you know I don't want to generalize here, but often they don't always read the small print. So it's important that we show them how to maximize, because that's why we're all here, and in that two-hour session you get even better buy-in, your storytelling kicks in and you can make it about them.
Speaker 1:Yeah, yeah, we changed ours. You know we used to have monthly accelerators and what that ended up doing is we ended up with like really lumpy months. Yeah, yeah, you change the comp plan to pay out the same amount of money, but encourage consistency and the six month period, yeah, and people became more consistent.
Speaker 2:And they, you know so. So, yeah, and that's that's also. You got the other AEs, who the skeptics, who understand that sandbagging could be a better way of doing things, and then that cascades across the teams, right. So that's the spiking once I get that. I've seen that before and that's also something to be mindful of.
Speaker 1:Yeah, what about training then? So you talk about you know, getting the comp plan and then making sure everyone's that's all been communicated to everyone and people fully understand things. But what about for your leaders in terms of how you actually train and coach them on carrying that kind of strategic message forward? Because if you're a first-time leader, you've just been promoted from an AE and you're managing your first team, this is going to be a muscle that you've probably not used before. You may have seen it and seen what great looks like if they've worked for a great leader, but then actually doing it and and and sort of carrying that message forward is is like a new skill set. How, how does the role of training and coaching um play at this?
Speaker 2:yeah, huge. And this is something that all second line leaders or regional leaders need to be aware of, because you can't just give them a number and expect them to figure it out. Um, it's so, so important because they are the bridge and first-line leaders are the most important component of your success, right? So you need to make sure you're investing in them and investing in them to understand how does the vision articulate down, how do they manage their teams, keep them inspired. So I put a huge amount of effort in terms of leadership coaching and just making sure that we have the right leaders in place and not just supervisors.
Speaker 2:And in the world of sales and in large corporate sometimes, you know you can have people who are kind of journeyman that can stay, or journeyman and you can who can be more supervisory and more critical. They tend to critique and supervise rather than inspire, motivate and actually jump in. But those leaders are also, um, you need to expect more where the exec sponsors that they're giving you feedback to product. They're closer to the action and it's so, so important that the role is really clearly defined. Um, and something that worked very well for us in the past was, you know, when we win a deal, we get the leaders to find out why we won the deal. It might turn out the ae did an amazing job. Or if we lose a deal, we need to find out why we lost a deal. We may find out that it's not a suitable ae that was dealing with the account. So it's a really, really important role. Um, I could go on all day about this one, adam yeah, okay, all right.
Speaker 1:Well, I think what would be great is you know we've talked a lot here. Are there any specific like stories that you can think of? You know, if you think about you know your career in leadership, are there any examples that you can share where alignment really clicked and that's like really helped to drive performance really?
Speaker 2:clicked and that's like really helped to drive performance. Yeah, and I kind of can't help but go back to the pandemic year on this one yeah because, although the vision and ambition didn't change for the year, the alignment and the how completely changed.
Speaker 2:Yeah. So without really strong alignment, communication, connection with the team, um, we would really have struggled. And so that year, um, was an incredible year. It was like crisis management and I remember vividly we eyed my leaders down at an off-site, down in, uh, at this golf club down in county wicklow. We did an off-site, we went down, we're building out, you know, our, our vision, our how for the year, our identity, all that.
Speaker 2:And remember like that was the day where we thought that, um, I was expecting almost will smith, an annunciation to walk through the uh, I felt like it was the end of the world.
Speaker 2:Right, because the messaging was starting to get big, right, yeah, and we left that meeting with agreement that whatever we agree today is likely to change. Yeah, because we knew something was going to change. So we had a really strong bond with the team that year. We had to make some significant changes throughout, but the connection with that team was phenomenal Because, even translating it right the way down to the AEs, we didn't know what was going to happen, but what we did make sure they were aware of that. We had their back. We were absolutely going to figure this out together, collectively, and we made significant changes throughout the year and I'll give you one example on this. So, for example, that org that I was running at the time, there were eight different verticals we were running and if you go back to the pandemic year, I had one manager that was looking after the travel and transport team.
Speaker 1:Yeah.
Speaker 2:You know, but within you know our org, we did find categories that were doing really well, like wealth and asset management were doing well because of, for example, you know people were. You know there was a fear in the stock market, so there were certain elements we could find and consultancy went through the roof. Online learning went through the roof. So we had to completely repivot and move our teams around. But skeptics weren't skeptics anymore, like everybody was bought in to figuring this out and they just wanted to help and we hit our number that year. We smashed through it and, yeah, incredible learnings, but even bigger connection made with the teams after that year.
Speaker 1:Yeah, it's funny, isn't it, how, like a crisis situation like that, first and foremost, it weeds out the people who are committed and aren't normal and who aren't right for the mission, but also really helps to pull people together and build those stronger bonds. And you know having success stories like that sort of strength through adversity, despite all the setbacks, you still manage to go and push on and hit the number yeah right and it does a lot for sort of team camaraderie big time.
Speaker 1:Have there been any experiments you've done over the years that that didn't work? Um?
Speaker 2:not making change doesn't work, so sometimes you've got to make changes. So, for example, not trying things can be equally as detrimental. I recall when we were trying to hire in more stronger female leaders into our business. We weren't getting applicants, so we'd go back and redo this is pointed for you, adam We'd go back and redo the job spec. Whatever language messaging was putting in there, it wasn't encouraging applicants. So that was something we continued to evolve. I also recall very early in my leadership career, we tried to launch a retail vertical because we saw demand was good, but we didn't really have a strategy. We were just trying to almost carve it out and try and figure it out. That was naive, didn't work. So that goes back to again the why, the how, the story, the assets, the references. They all need to be there before you commit. So yeah, I've made lots of errors in my career, dude, and I could talk about those all day as well, right, but the certain learnings you know that you take away from it.
Speaker 1:Yeah, so we're coming towards the end of the episode and one of the things I wanted to try with you today, Nal, is a couple of rapid-fire questions, so short punchy answers and if you're ready I'll get going.
Speaker 2:I feel like we're going back to the 1980s here. Quiz show after school, go for it.
Speaker 1:So one trait every front-line sales leader needs in 2025?.
Speaker 2:Clarity. What I mean by that is we don't need to have all the answers, but we need to be. We need to give confidence in where the business is heading and be very clear in that communication. I think clarity is one that all managers need to have yeah, I think the um people, people appreciate honesty.
Speaker 1:The person that sits there and pretends to know the answer to everything and you know is never, is afraid to admit they don't know. Uh, you quickly start to lose people. You lose the locker room. A leadership book or podcast that you'd recommend.
Speaker 2:Two books I've read recently and they're both sports related. Actually, one was what's the guy's name? Former 49ers coach, bill Walsh, the book the Score Takes Care of Itself. That book was amazing. It just says don't worry about the outcome, focus on the inputs. Keep focused on doing the right things, the quality of your work, and the Score Takes Care of Itself. Brilliant book. The other one was I know you're a man United fan. The other one was that Jürgen Klopp book. Bring On the Noise. The reason I left that book was, um, it moved on from just talking about the culture. It spoke about the climate, and it's like the climate he created in the club, not just the culture, and that's something that, um, I just absolutely adore. You know just how do you create the right climate, the right environment, not just the culture. So that book was really really good as well nice, and how do you feel about winning?
Speaker 1:you know the results that you've got's pretty good.
Speaker 2:I have a little cup here as well. That might have just shown you there you go.
Speaker 1:So all good, all good, most underrated habit for keeping teams aligned.
Speaker 2:Habit Is listening a habit. We need to be listening, always listening. And yeah, I mean I've had leaders who do a lot of talking, a lot of telling, and I've seen also I've worked for leaders to do a lot of telling and less listening. So I think listening is one and I don't just mean in one-to-ones, but I mean, you know, ask, you ask for the feedback and then really listening to, to what it is.
Speaker 1:So, yeah, that's one yeah, and what's one thing a VP or other sales leader could do today to improve alignment within the teams.
Speaker 2:Pick three reps on your team and ask them to articulate the strategy back to you. If they can't do it, something's not right. So that's something I would do Pick three reps, just say, look, how would you articulate the strategy to me right now? And if they can't do it, go back to the managers and make sure that we're consistently reinforcing that.
Speaker 1:Yeah, I love that. Listen, Niall, I've thoroughly enjoyed the conversation. As I said to you, time flies. But yeah, no, I really appreciate you sharing your insight. For anyone that's interested, I'm sure they can reach out, connect with you on LinkedIn. But yeah, thank you so much for your time and sharing some of your experience.
Speaker 2:Yeah, great to be here, Adam, and just as kind of a parting piece here as well, because I was trying to think how do we close out storytelling? But for me, I would just say that, um, you know, when the strategy becomes personal, it really becomes powerful, and that's the piece that I encourage all managers to bring back to the raise. So make it personal, and you'd be amazed how much productivity, but also, um, how much commitment you get from the teams as well.
Speaker 1:Yeah, I love that. Well, thank you very much. Pleasure Adam. Talk to you soon. Thanks for listening. I hope you enjoyed today's episode. Don't forget to subscribe and if you want more information about the podcast head over to our website.
Speaker 2:Scale with Stride.
