The end of team building?

In this episode of DEDx, hosts Anna and John, along with guest Andy Perkins, explore the concept of team building. They delve into whether traditional team-building activities should be embraced or discarded. 

Andy, with over 30 years in the Learning and Development industry, shares his extensive experience with team-building events, questioning their long-term effectiveness and value. The discussion transitions to the alternative of data-driven team development, which focuses on sustainable and measurable growth. 

The episode critically examines the high costs, inclusivity issues, and authentic impact of team-building activities while advocating for personalised team coaching and development based on diagnostic data.

00:00 Introduction to Team Building Debate

00:12 Meet Andy Perkins: A Veteran in L&D

01:29 Defining Team Building

03:16 Team Building Activities and Their Impact

05:13 The Financial Aspect of Team Building

06:25 Psychometrics in Team Building

07:30 Challenges and Criticisms of Team Building

15:42 Who Benefits from Team Building?

19:17 Team Development: A Data-Driven Approach

25:56 Conclusion: To DEDx or Not to DEDx Team Building

Andy is the Head of Strategic Partnerships at Meta Team 

www.metateam.co.uk

Andy is on LinkedIn at: 

https://www.linkedin.com/in/andy-perkins-19374316/

If you have any Dedx suggestions email us at team@samsas.one with the subject line Dedx Idea.

We would love to hear them!

John: https://www.linkedin.com/in/jadm/

Anna: https://www.linkedin.com/in/anna-wesson-54989929/

Music credit: by Yevhen Onoychenko from Pixabay

Disclaimer: The ideas discussed in this podcast are intended for entertainment purposes only and should not be taken as serious business advice. Listeners are encouraged to do their own research and seek professional advice before implementing any of the ideas discussed.

Transcript

Anna 

This week we're going to be discussing team building and whether it is an idea that we should embrace and keep forever, or whether it is in fact a DEDx and an idea worth binning. With John, John and I today, we have Andy Perkins who needs no introduction, but I will let him introduce himself and give us a sense of why this topic is interesting and important to him.

Andy, welcome. 

and thanks very much, John and Anna.  I have been involved in L& D supply side for over 30 years. I have been very, very lucky with some of my career. And I started with Kaplan.  And then I evolved into being a commercial director of a leadership development company called the Inspirational Development Group. 

And then after that, after 10 years, I ended up back at Kaplan as a global VP.  For a further seven years I've seen team building in many, many guises. And when I was at inspirational development group, I was very, very lucky that we had a exclusive relationship with the Royal Military Academy Sandhurst.

What I'd love to do is to tell you some of my experiences about some of the excellent team building events that we put on for our clients. I

sounds great. Maybe just tell us a little bit about team building. What is, what, what do you mean when you say team building? 

It depends on whose point of view you're looking at, I think, from a client point of view, team building can be seen to be a cure for dysfunctional teams,  teams that actually are feeling clumsy, teams that are not working within themselves, teams that have struggling with the commercial organizational landscape, the business in which they operate. However, team building from  the provider's point of view, I think is slightly different. We would always provide what we call a ropes and barrels experience. So it'd be a very, very experiential team building event. It would often involve almost like mincer.  Puzzles, but they would be a physical activity.

How do you get a container X into container Y without touching the ground sort of thing?

Sounds like a game show. 

it is,, it is, and it's there to actually energize the team, but also to stretch the team, but also to  challenge how they work together. And I think some of these activities produce interesting results on the day.

I 

Say a bit more about that. What, what, what, what are the interesting results that you've seen or that you would hope for when you're, when you're putting people, putting people through this interesting language that I've used there.

think if we just wind this back slightly, Anna, what would happen is often you'd have senior team from, say, a large bank, and they wanted to do two day off site, and they would come to Sandhurst, and we would look after them very professionally and very diligently. And we would have worked with, say, the HR director or the sponsor of the team building event to decide on the activities.



Hmm,

What?  The activities often were focusing on was collaboration. We used to call it the leadership of the team, but also followership within the team.

hmm,

Can they work together? Can they communicate? Can they intellectually bestill a problem and then find a solution?

And then can they all take on specific roles so that that solution can be executed in speed? 

 Okay. So, so you've got,  I think I, what I heard in there was that prior to people arriving, you've worked with the HRD or somebody to say, this is, these are the challenges that this team is facing. So there's some, there's some responding to the needs of, of that particular team.

Yes, yes,

As decided by whom? 

usually the sponsor, not the team, sometimes the team leader,  sometimes the team leader. But when I say sponsor, the sponsor of the actual team building event is often the budget holder. Now that might be the team leader, or it might be the team leader's boss, or it might be the HR department or the LMD department.

It depends.  The circumstances are different for each client. 

And, and

there, Andy. And it's interesting cause this, this strikes me as an area where quite a lot of money can get sloshed around.

know, you take a team of, say, 12 people to an off site  where it's, where it is residential,  fully facilitated, fully designed with a, a smart dinner or a fun dinner. You can be, you could be talking about 15 or 20, 000 pounds plus. 

Wow. I mean, it's a lot, a lot of money. You would expect that there was some pre agreed results or outcomes that you were hoping for as a result of that.

Yeah, I think so. I think, I think. Sometimes, sometimes it could be linked to a psychometric, a pre event psychometric. So you could actually have Hogan or maybe DISC so that you would combine the physical activities with feedback on the psychometric on the individuals within the team. So you can design it in many, many different ways.

and I'm smiling slightly, Andy, because we have done a previous DEDx on psychometrics and their value and how somehow, sometimes that value isn't exactly where people expect it to be. So so, so it's an interesting premise for, for setting up team building, which. Equally might have some more controversial impact

Don't get me started, Anna. I mean I, I have worked with many varieties of psychometrics and  I think some are  closer to being horoscopes rather than delivering scientific value. I also think they're misused. I think, I think a psychometric can provide insight, but sometimes They get misused, you know, I, you know, I've sat around tables where people have said, Oh, well, actually I have an ENTP.

And someone else says, Oh, I'm an INTJ. How on earth can we talk together? It's that sort of approach where you end up with labels.



Diving in a little deeper to the, to the team building piece,  it would be great to, to just explore a little bit more, an experience that you've, that you've been part of, what were the pros, what were the cons, what worked well, what were What were some of the disasters?

Just, just take us through an experience

okay. A team that the, the, the team building event, say two days, one night, one night residential team comes into Sandhurst. Sandhurst is a wonderful state. I do think that's part of the team building event. You know, people get taken to these extraordinary places. You know, we used to use Sandhurst, but I've also run treasure hunt in Rome, for example.

I think the environment is actually quite important for a good team building event.  I think you settle people down, you make them, you try to make them feel very as comfortable as possible, and you try to make it inclusive as possible.

And you take them through their expectations or what was going to happen to them over the two day period.  And then you'd usually kick off with a fairly challenging event, but it would be, let's say, dry. It would be intellectually challenging. It wouldn't test, if you like but it would be outdoors.  Then you'd probably have lunch and then you'd have a debrief. You'd always have a debrief. What should this team stop, start, and continue? You'd actually give them observed. Results, you know,  what was the level of leadership? Like, what was the level of followership? Like, did they collaborate? Well, did they distill ideas?

How did they solutionize? So you'd actually make them reflect  and you would actually give them feedback yourself.  Then you'd have lunch. Then you'd have another  team building exercise, which would be looking at different aspects of the team. Okay. And then, at Santa's, they would go to the officers  barracks, and they're pretty basic, I tell you,  get changed, and then would have dinner in the officers mess.

Mm hmm. Black tie.

Sometimes, but it didn't have to be, but it was, it was, it was the officer's vest.  Next morning,  we'd then step it up a gear or two, and they'd either go into Raft Building  or the Sandhurst  Assault Course. 

That sounds like fun. I bet people love that. 

I think, I think it was mixed, and some people Some people love it and some people loathe it.

And there's bumps and bruises and occasionally breakages. And, and,

a bit more about that. 

I mean, you know, and it was, you know, the health and safety is so well looked after. But,  you know, it's an assault course, you know, and people trip or they break their arm or they break their ankle. I mean, it's not wholesale tarnage, let's get this absolutely right.

Right, right. It's not an actual war zone

No, but, but, you know, it is, it is physical. And so therefore, you know, these things happen. If you're going to do the raft building, for example, in the Sandhurst Lake, which is absolutely freezing. And, you know, the rafts tend to undo. And so The people often end up in the lake. So it's, you have these various activities and they are great fun.

They're very professionally run. Their health and safety is absolutely premium. Top of our

Mm hmm. 

Mm 

Does everybody have fun? 

I think this is one of my doubts about team building. I have no doubt that if it's well run, if it's well designed, if everybody is properly prepared, it is great fun on the day.

Mm hmm. 

I think it has a great impact on the day.

Yeah.  Say a little bit more. 

My view of team building  that it's often used wrongly. People expect. long lasting, sustainable change within the team. I have been on team building events myself, I've been flown to New York for,  a wonderful, you know, heightened sequel exercise. You know, I've done all this.  The problem is, is that I think team building exercises Often come across as being contrived and inauthentic.

Now that may be sounding, I'm criticizing myself. We would do our best,  but  you've got to question whether building a raft or going on an assault course, what relevance that has back in the workplace.  And,  and the other thing is, is that.  You can't really mirror workplace challenges through a physical exercise. 

The argument is that the pro argument is that shared experiences creates strong bonds and connects people,  across, across the team,

 John, I, I completely agree with you. But it's, it's, it is a very temporary.  hit, if you like. I think that the morale boost, which definitely happens,  fades away very quickly. And therefore, sustainable change and sustainable value back in the workplace is temporary.

Yeah. So we're saying there's a, there's a pretty short half life  for this type of stuff. 

And I would add to that that people are not idiots. They can see through anything that feels inauthentic. Anything that feels like, oh, we're going to be this jolly team who get on really well for this thing. You know, people are sceptical of that. Rightly, I think, resist that and so they resist  being there nor, you know, bringing everything that they have to these team building days because they smell a rat, you know, what's this, this, this is not done because they want us to have a brilliant time, this is done with some cynical other purpose, you know, if we're connected, then it's going to make us more productive and if we're more productive, we create more shareholder value, people, people are not stupid and they, they kind of go back to first principles of, you know Why are they doing this to us and what, what's the value and, and, and how does that fit with me?

I think there's also the competitor. There can be the competitiveness in the team as well that that can drag on. So you've got, you know, you have people that are on the team that are competitors, their competitors for promotion, their competitors for whatever it might be next role.

Resources and some of the stuff that goes on there can, can be quite negative. I think

think some  team members, employees feel an awful amount of peer group pressure  to participate. And I think this can lead to resentment.  I mean, and I come back to it, you know, we used to do our most best. For it to be an inclusive exercise, we did our utmost best to make sure that people didn't feel  coerced.

But, no matter how hard you try, this can happen. I've run team building events in pouring rain, you know, and it's just uncomfortable and it loses that zing and sparkle. 

And so Andy, just, just kind of expanding on that point, who does this work for?  Who are the people who are like, they get the most out of team building. They return to the office energized in that kind of collaborative. And who is it  who get less of that?  Is there a certain group of people who you can identify?

I suspect they're not going to love this.

No, I don't think you can, you can  put it in boxes.  What I would say is, is that it depends on the original objective of the team building event.  If you've had an incredibly tough year, and you've come through it as a team, and you've delivered well, then team building off site  can be a good piece of jolly fun.

be a reward basically. Right.

always, yes, it's almost a reward. And it's bringing together, you know, comrades, you know, let's go and do this. But it's when people think that team building is a panacea for a dysfunctional team. That's where it goes wrong. And I think that's, that's where I think team building  It's an absolute waste of money and time, and I'm being quite controversial even though I'm probably invoiced for that level, I do think that if it's approached with the wrong intentions,  it can be a complete waste of money.

And it can get out of hand. Right. I mean, we were talking earlier about situation that a friend of mine was on where they, they've.  A hundred people flew from all over the world to London, they did a treasure hunt, they ended up at an airport, they got on a plane, they didn't know where the plane was going until it landed, they landed three hours later in somewhere in Africa, and they went hiking for four days.

Across,  a range of mountains with various team challenges and stuff thrown in. Hundreds of thousands of pounds or dollars or whatever.  For a lot.

Well, and that's one of the interesting ones. I've heard of versions of that where the team building has been specified and organized and paid for, and then there's been a round of redundancies unexpectedly because there's been a terrible quarter and then everyone's gone. , the remaining people have still had to go on the team building, which is expensive and in another country and fancy and everyone's going, Oh, the optics here are  not quite what we'd hoped for.

This is awkward.

Exactly. I think, I think you're right. I think that I see nothing wrong in taking a team away for an enjoyable offsite.  I see huge amounts wrong if you expect it to deliver long term sustainable value back in the workplace. So. That's where I'm coming from. And I think if you look, read the HBR articles, look at Forbes, look at McKinsey, look at PWC, look at Deloitte.

There are so many references. I'm looking at one now, the Chartered Institute of Personnel and  Development, CIPD. They all question the monetary and strategic value of team building events.

Mm.

So that takes us to what we should start. That takes us to what we should maybe move to. So what's the alternative? What do we what does it look like if it's not team building as we've talked about? What might it look like? 

I think I'm a great advocate for that. It's called team development, and that may sound trite, but I'm talking about data driven team development,  where you are using a. Tool that gives you insights about the team, particularly where its strengths are and where are the blind spots. And then the money is spent on that team could be from being good to being great through a series of  well delivered, highly professional.

Very personalized team coaching workouts, workshops. So I think, to me, so I think things need to be data driven.  I don't  really believe in observation of a team and how they work in a meeting. I've done it. I've done it. I've sold it. But the problem is, is that you end up liking one person, disliking another person.

Someone's very noisy. Someone's very quiet. And whatever you do, there's a level of unintentional bias. I want to see objective data driven by a diagnostic that gives data, shows up the blind spot, shows up the great strengths, and then design personalized for the team of the individual  personalized or customized collective learning journey.

For that team so that you can really focus experientially and in a commercially relevant way on how that team can grow.  And I think it is the growth of the team rather than the repair of the team. That is really important.

All right. Growth versus repair. I like it.

I'm gonna, I'm gonna play devil's advocate, Andy, and just say, doesn't sound as much fun.

I think it can be.  Very inspirational. I think it could be very, very insight. And  I think it can, I think the growth experience can be very exhilarating.  And I think you can, you can work on four behaviors. It could be trust, it could be resilience, it could be purpose within the team, it could be the focus of the team, could be adaptability or the decision making of the team.

 I think that if the team can actually look at the, the, the diagnostic or the, the data that the, the diagnostic results and actually see what do we think about this team's behavior, what does the stakeholders of our team think about of our behavior or the team leader or the team leader's boss, if you amalgamate all that,  I think it's very I think it can build enthusiasm to grow within the team itself. 

And, and so I hear in that there's something about engagement, perhaps. There's something about that kind of idea of taking pride and, and fulfilment from the work that you're doing in order that in order that that's where the, the value and the enjoyment comes from. It's not the kind of frivolous fun of, you know, going and making a raft.

Yeah,

sees  well, documented diagnostic results,  then they become the content. So instead of them being told what to do, they become the content. And I think that gives a level of ownership,  which then inspires people to go on a development journey.

As a collective, and I think that development journey of the collective really builds strong cohesion within the team. 

think we've seen that in the work that we've done when we tie the team development to what the team is actually working on, so that the real work that they have to do,  if, they So, if they move forward in that, if they leave the session and they've solved something, or they've fixed something, or they've changed something about the real work that they're doing, that seems to be what sticks with them the most.

Because they've actually done something. Okay, we had a problem, we fixed it, we know what we're doing now, great. It's like  that was,  that was valuable for them. So I think anchoring things in  the real work that the team's doing might sound not as much fun. But I do think from our, certainly from our experiences, the teams  seem more satisfied and motivated. out of that than if they'd been for an afternoon's, you know, ski chase or whatever it might be. So, 

I also think, John, if I could add in one other point, is that if you do use a data driven diagnostic for the team, that provides you a very solid benchmark. And then in six months time, you could reassess that team and look to see whether there's been behavioral change between one point and the next. And I think that And I've always been sceptical about return on investment because it's very difficult to pinpoint return on investment down to a individual team, but you can look at the behavioral change within that team from one point to the next.

I like the word shift. You know, this is the shift that you have, you, you are able to demonstrate through, through looking at the data.

Yes.

teams should be able to have fun, but don't dress it up as this is a learning journey. Just say, okay, now we're going to this afternoon.  We're actually going to do something that's fun,  right? And just do it.  Don't pretend, don't make it something that it's not. So I think both, both have a place, but when you mix them up, I guess what I'm saying is when you, when you try and mix them up,  you dilute both to some

Yes. Yeah. 

All right. It's coming to that time. To DEDx or not to DEDx team building.  So, 

Who wants to

go

us off? 

I think that the time of team building events as we know them has come to an end.  I think  it's something a real hobby horse of mine.  If you spend money on training,  if it stays in the team building event or only shortly after,  it is an expense. If you can spend money on team development, where there is lasting, sustainable and visible change, then it's an investment. And therefore I think you've got to say, team building, I think is expense. Team development can be a strategic investment for the company.

Alright, so that sounds like a DEDx from Andy. 

Yeah. And, and, you know, I'm entirely aligned, I think, Andy possibly not for exactly the same reasons. I think, you know, we're talking about team building and it's a relic, you know, it's, it's something that was a lovely thing to do in the eighties and nineties, but I think we've moved on, you know, there are other things that are important.

You know, what's the impact of the environment, how we, you know,  Honestly, the thought of flying 20 people to New York to do a treasure hunt makes my skin crawl. I don't think we can justify that anymore. I don't think it works for all people. I think it's exclusionary , it doesn't compensate for crap culture.

You know, you've got to get some of these fundamentals right in order to make something like any sort of team working valuable. And, and to your point, you know, the development has got to be there. It's got to be something that is a demonstrable shift in people from We're here, are here. And, and, you know, where are we going to continue to come in?

and I just pick up on one thing and I should have said it earlier to me. Team building is lazy.  I think it is often seen as a quick fix for a team. I think it's a lazy fix because I don't think it works. I think it costs a lot of money and it can actually do more damage than good. 

Yeah, I would, concur with both of you and, and DEDx that. As a,  as an idea, team building, too expensive,  not inclusive, doesn't work remotely. Not sustainable. The boss might think it's great. Hey, I'm gonna, you know, we're going to spend 50 grand and everyone's going to have a great experience.

They might feel good about it, but there's, , there's no less than benefit, I think. So you can see how it's sold. So it is time to rethink it with data driven team development.  I don't know who can help with that, but we'll we'll come up with some ideas. I'm sure you'll find some in the show notes. 

So Andy, a great pleasure. Thanks for joining us today. It's been great to get your insights. 

Thank you, John. It's been a real pleasure. Both Anna and John,  I love working with you and I've really enjoyed doing this as well.

 Anna. Thanks a lot.

Oh, yeah. Thanks, John. Thanks, Andy. All the best.

see you next time.