Supporting Executive Functioning for Staff and Supervisees in ABA with Amy Theobold

🎙️ In the Field: The ABA Podcast

 Episode 26: Supporting Executive Functioning for Staff & Supervisees with Amy Theobold

In this episode, I chat with Amy Theobold—clinic owner and executive functioning coach—about how executive functioning challenges show up in our staff and supervisees. From lateness and missed deadlines to overwhelm and burnout, Amy walks us through how she shifted from frustration to system-building, and how you can too.

We talk about supporting—not rescuing—staff, designing proactive supervision systems, and why skills like planning and task initiation matter just as much for adults as they do for learners.

🔑 Key Topics:

• What executive functioning looks like in the workplace
• Coaching vs. punishing: a behavior-analytic approach to performance issues
• How Amy uses executive functioning assessments during onboarding
• Setting expectations, building systems, and reducing burnout
• Why values and consequences matter more than you think

💡 Key Takeaways:

• Staff performance issues are often skill deficits, not motivation problems
• Support systems help everyone, not just those who ask for help
• Supervision should be proactive, compassionate, and clear
• The best BCBAs still need support, structure, and mentorship

🔍 Keywords:
Executive Functioning, ABA Supervision, Performance Support, BCBA Mentorship, Task Initiation, Systems Thinking, Behavior Technician Support

📲 Connect with Amy:
Instagram: @evolvinganalyst & @collegeadhdcoach

🔔 Subscribe:
For more episodes on supervision, training, and leadership in ABA, subscribe to In the Field: The ABA Podcast and visit www.sidekicklearning.net for tools and resources.

Disclaimer:

BCBA®, BACB® [or any other BACB® trademark used] is/are registered to the Behavior Analytic Certification Board® BACB®. This website and products are not in any way sponsored by the BACB®.

All information and products are for educational purposes only.

Transcript

Supporting Executive Functioning for Staff & Supervisees in ABA

Allyson Wharam: Hi Amy. Thank you so much for being here.

Amy Theobold: Hey, thanks for having me. I'm so excited. 

Allyson Wharam: So, we got to chat a little bit before this about what we wanted to talk about today. You are doing a lot of work in executive functioning for college students, but you also as a business owner of 10 years in an ABA business, have seen the impact of those executive functioning skills on your staff as well. I would love to hear a little bit first about your journey. What led you to doing the work that you're doing right now working on those executive functioning skills with that population of people.

And then I would like to talk a little bit more about how those skills can apply to our graduate students, to our staff, to our employees.

Amy Theobold: Sure. So I'm a mom, I'm a mom of three. And, we've sent three of our own kids to college in the last six years. And I found it interesting because when my kids were in high school I approached things very differently than a lot of other parents approached things. I was very [00:01:00] focused on the idea of them functioning well in college.

Like on like the skillset of them functioning in college. So really worried about like those overarching skills that I knew would carry them into the college setting. So, things like, could they talk to their teachers? Could they solve their own problems? Could they schedule their own days?

Could they actually make things happen for themselves without me micromanaging everything as we end up doing, even by default. We don't mean to, but we just do. Because of the way we set up our environments in our home, we know how everything flows the best, how our kids perform the best.

So we set up the systems to be that way. And so really I started thinking about those things. And our kids went to private high schools, were amongst a lot of really smart kids. When we started launching kids to college, the things that I saw happening to their classmates, or their teammates - I have a son that was an athlete.

I was like, we're failing these kids. Some of the crisis' have like pretty significant [00:02:00] consequences. We're talking everything from impulsive behaviors that are very dangerous and end up with DUIs, and arrest, and things like that, to psychiatric mental crisises because we don't have any support as far as organization systems and things like that.

So my first son actually ended up in a point in time where he called me and was like, mom, the cops are here, the ambulance are here, and my roommate's gonna be placed in a psych hold. And , it just unraveled that we were just failing kids. And so when we started digging into the statistics, we realized that only 33% of neurodivergent kids that go to college will graduate within six years.

And that is, first of all, a terrible statistic. Second of all, when you consider the cost, the financial cost, and the emotional cost, it's really huge. When I talk about emotional costs, I'm talking about like punishment, right? Like social punishment. So the more failure experiences these kids have during that time of their life, [00:03:00] what we know is that's damaging.

It ruins the joy of learning. It ruins all the reinforcing things. And it can really take a turn in their life where they're convinced that they can't complete a college degree or they can't be a part of a certain degree program, or they can't be a part of a certain major, because they don't have the executive functioning skills to complete it.

But they think it's because they're not smart enough or they're not intelligent enough. That's really not what it is. We as BCBAs know that it's just like this background of executive functioning skills. And in 2020, we just put out the word and started coaching a few kids locally.

And then 2020 happened and everything fizzled out. And we all loved it when we did it. We just like really enjoyed it. It was so much fun. So after we survived COVID in 2024, we were like, let's. Bring this back to life. And so we just relaunched it.

And we've been coaching about 10 or 20 each semester, and our statistics are great. 85% of our kids that come to us come from failure experiences. But our [00:04:00] first semester, 93% of them got every single credit that they attempted. All of them got off of academic probation, all of them stayed in school.

And then our second semester, 100% of 'em got off of academic probation and stayed in good standing and earned their credits. And so we just saw like a lot of really good success with it. And it got us thinking, what other populations does executive functioning actually play a huge role in? Like problematic behaviors that we're not thinking of.

And the first population that kind of came to our mind is the staff that we have in our autism clinic. I think I can say this: I don't think there's anyone in the country that's probably not in some way struggling with staffing right now. It's hard to attract people, it's hard to keep people.

And then, if you read any of the Facebook boards, you see that it's hard to get people to come to work. All of those normal workplace contingencies that used to be in place aren't anymore. And it seems like a constant struggle. [00:05:00] And so we really started to think about, if we assess our staff members executive functioning skills, how could we help with that?

And so that's what we've started in our clinic and we're working on some CEUs and things like that to help BCBAs approach that from a different manner. But, it's the best thing ever because number one, you get to stop being mad at people for not having great workplace behaviors, because you get to actually think about the behavior rather than attributing it to the person's character.

Allyson Wharam: Actually acting like a behavioral analyst. 

Amy Theobold: Right. Which is crazy, right? 

Because we don't do that very well. It's funny because, and it's a whole other topic, but I feel like autism has really put some limitations on our application of science. The fact that we stop thinking about it outside of the Medical Necessity criteria, and the ABLL-R criteria, and the PEAK criteria, and things like that. When really behavior analysis is all [00:06:00] around us and I am not being arrogant and being like, you can go save the world with a behavior analysis. Just pick something and solve anything. That's not what I'm saying. But I am saying that we should have critical thinking skills about the problems that we do have in our own systems and how we can solve them.

And so, when we realize that if somebody shows up late, it is probably a planning problem or a task initiation problem or one of these executive functioning skills. We can then coach from a place of working on increasing their executive functioning skills or helping them form systems in their life versus, just punishment, just documented counseling, just threats, and things like that.

It may work and it may not. For people to build their executive functioning skills, they have to have full consent and they have to actually work towards the behavior change. But even if it doesn't work, at least we tried and at least we're approaching it from a system of positive reinforcement and a system of change that's more likely to [00:07:00] work and just makes more sense.

Allyson Wharam: Could you take a moment and define executive functioning?

Amy Theobold: So executive functioning, and it's funny because like any other therapy professionals, like "Oh yeah, executive functioning skills, totally a thing, right?" But, I like to define it as those behaviors that it takes to complete things. There is literature on it. I can send you the links after the podcast, but there is a lot of literature that talks about breaking these things down. And so if you think about like task initiation, if you think about planning, if you think about short term memory or recall.

There's a lot of these different things and we know that those are behaviors. We know that there are behaviors that take part in that. And so, if as BCBAs we want to reject the term of executive functioning, we're just ostracizing ourselves from the rest of the world, which seems silly.

When we really do have the skills to help people with task analysis, help people to find the deficits and where the actual problem is occurring and how to fix it. The thing [00:08:00] that we can offer, succinctly, that other professionals cannot, is that we can really even go further back. Right? 

And so like if we do an executive functioning assessment and we realize that somebody has timeliness issues, task initiation, and every single student I probably have, I work with, has issues meeting deadlines. Okay? But as a BCBA, I know that every single one of the reasons why is not the same.

And so we're so good at uncovering functions and understanding the root cause of something that we can really be effective in this space. Whereas somebody else who just thinks in strategies isn't going to be as effective. So there are other professionals who would prescribe like one of three different things to meet deadlines.

Oh, write yourself a note. You should give a visual schedule. Set an alarm. You should do this. But when I actually take the time to figure out what the function of that is for my student, then there's [00:09:00] about one of 100 different interventions that we can apply. So for instance, I have a student who came to me, scored terribly on meeting deadlines. Scored terribly on task initiation.

And I was like, okay, so you failed because you didn't turn in your assignments. And she's yes. And I'm like, okay, so tell me about that. Did you just not do them? Did you forget that they existed? She said "Oh no, I did them."

And I'm like "Okay, tell me more about that." She shares her screen and she pulls up her hard drive and literally this beautiful folder with like English 101 this week.

And I'm like, okay, so they're all done. 

Why didn't you submit them? Did you forget to submit them? She said, " No, I really wasn't happy with the quality of my work. And so I would hold onto them." These classes policies, you could turn it in up to two days late and each one of those days late, you just got a little doc on the grade.

"And so I was convinced that I could make them even better and that the points would offset, [00:10:00] but then I just never actually got to the point of turning it in because I still didn't think it was good enough." That is completely different than my other student who forgets the assignments exist.

And calendar reminder is not gonna fix that.

So what has fixed that is us really using some act and talking about like that it's okay not to always turn in a hundred percent work, which I know parents, some parents like really cringe when I say that, but I'm like, no do you always turn in a hundred percent work to your boss?

Let's be real. Like we're humans And so sometimes 80% gets the job done. And so teaching those act skills and those like critical thinking skills of being able to like, okay, I can just have the thought that this wasn't my best work and I can still turn it in and that doesn't make me a bad person.

And so behavior analysts are particularly skilled in those areas and I think we don't even realize it. And those same truths probably apply to our staff members. The struggle is taking the time to uncover that. So we're [00:11:00] really trying to work to adapt some of the same peer reviewed assessments and stuff to our staff members so that we can use it in the clinic area as well.

Allyson Wharam: I have actually never heard of anyone taking that proactive approach to some of that executive functioning for staff. Usually it is, like you said. A problem arises, we have some sort of performance plan that is reactive and addresses that. And often it's punitive, like you mentioned as well.

So when you're thinking about it proactively, what do those assessments look like? What does that process look like?

Amy Theobold: For us it's gonna start just with the structure we already have in place. So we're a tiered clinic obviously, so we have BCBAs and then we have RLTs, registered line text in our state, not registered behavior techs. And so we're gonna do it from a team aspect, and we're gonna start that from having the person do some personal discovery, and then we're going to bring the BCBA in and we're gonna have conversations about it. About [00:12:00] how it impacts work.

And so what we don't want is them feeling like we're trying to pick apart their personal life. This is not really my role. It's not really appropriate. However, I do want to bring awareness to the idea that these behaviors impact how you show up at work. And so if we can use some act, if we can use some of these tools, then you're going to show up at work as a better employee.

And to be honest, like you are also gonna be a better adult in life. 

So that's super helpful. And like for years as an owner, the constant like management conversations were, but I'm not these people's parents. I don't need to teach them. I shouldn't be teaching them how to manage their finances.

I shouldn't be teaching them how to make sure that they pay their rent and all of these things. No, but at some point those extraneous behaviors do affect how they show up in our clinic rooms. And the other thing too is that if they don't at least understand the structure of how to do that, how do [00:13:00] we expect them to be effective technicians with our children with autism?

That doesn't really make any sense. So that's the aspect that we're going about it at? And just like the change, we're like very early in working through the program, but the change in the attitude. With my BCBAs who are managing these people has been huge. Because then we come from a place of compassion and empathy versus a place of hostility.

We also come from a place of trying to use like antecedent modifications and environmental modifications and things like that to set up our work environment for success, versus being upset when everything doesn't go our way. I think that is really helpful.

Like one thing that we're working on with our BCBAs right now is, we have a lot of new staff and we're in the clinic, area and we have a small clinic and so we have the privilege that all of our BCBAs know all of our kids, and they know all of their [00:14:00] behavior plans.

They know what's going on with each kid. And so one of the problems that we're having is that we have staff that are constantly having questions. The problem with that is then our BBAs don't have time to actually do the higher level work that they need to do. But also, I don't wanna punish them asking questions.

I don't want to punish them seeking out supervision. So one antecedent thing that we're working on actually this week is designating a troubleshooter for the day so that we know that one BCBA is completely free to go about their schedule without having to deal with all the constant interruptions unless there's an absolute crisis.

And so like thinking through those things. For me, as a clinic owner, I don't do any of the clinical work anymore. I only do the backend stuff that is absolutely no fun that I did not get into this field to do, but that's a different story. For me, I could just be frustrated with them and be like, "I don't understand. Why don't you manage your staff better?" That's not really all that helpful. That doesn't [00:15:00] help their burnout. It doesn't help the fact that they literally have people that are serving kids right now that feel like their needs are urgent and that they don't feel like they can do it all. However, when I approach it from, okay, we need to get you guys some relief so that you can do the paperwork that you absolutely have to do because it's part of our process, it's part of what is required for this business to be sustainable.

But also, I don't wanna lose the present. That's why I practice in clinic is because I want the presence of a BCBA at all times, right? Because I think it improves the quality. And so how do we approach that? And when you think about it through the lens of executive functioning and an athetic modifications, it becomes so much clearer and so much easier.

It's really easy to hold clinic owners and business owners to task and be like, "oh, they're terrible. They don't care." But we also have to understand that sometimes there are legal constraints that prevent business owners [00:16:00] from operating in a purely behavioral way. And so there are all of these consequences that come from like the huge system that we may not necessarily understand, which is why it's so easy for business owners to fall into this consequence model, because they feel like they have to cover themselves in case of legal action.

However, we can figure this out and we can make them meet in the middle so that you're not putting yourself at risk. But at the same time, you're still meeting your staff where we know that we can meet them as being a behavior analysts. 

Allyson Wharam: I think what special about what you just said is that you are looking at it on the individual level, but you're also bringing in the system. So at the that first level, you have your supervisors who are then working with those people, but you're zooming out even further to say, okay, within how we've set this clinic structure up, what can we do to enable these certain behaviors and address this problem so that it's not just "don't ask."

I tell the story [00:17:00] sometimes as a non-example of when training is the solution. But I was the onboarding trainer for our organization and through that process, the technicians were sent out to work with the clients.

Before they had a lot of the foundational skills with unfortunately very little support and supervision and oversight. And so, in trying to bring this up and talk to the leadership and kind of talk through this issue, the solution that was presented was adding an onboarding training related to critical thinking.

So it's a non example of like when training is the answer, but it's also a non-example of how to really think from that systems lens of why were they struggling? They were struggling because this was their first.

Time ever working with children with autism or using behavior analysis at all. So they needed more supervision and support front loaded than maybe an established tech needed, but everyone was treated the same way. I guess my point is shifting that individual [00:18:00] onus that training approach, just keeps that focus on the individual.

And not that... that's still a piece of some of these interventions, but you really have to zoom out and look from that systems lens.

Amy Theobold: I think you also have to kind of be willing to consistently look at it. As organizations change and as people come and go, and as we enter new periods of time and history, things change. All of your policies may not age well. Maybe the policies you set up three years ago aren't necessarily serving your staff right now.

And so if something's not working instead of just being like this is the way we've always done it and this is the rule and it has to be this way, zooming out and being like, okay, but why isn't this working? And course there are some like non-negotiables, like there are absolutely rules you have to keep.

But at the same time, I think we could probably do a better job of meeting our staff where they are. I think the one frustrating thing for me is, in the world of social media, people will say, oh if you have hard time [00:19:00] keeping staff, then you just must be a terrible employer. We're not alone. Like our industry is not alone. And so when we look at other industries that also have positions that are high, like high intensity, frontline care, all of those other industries have the same struggles. Like they all have the same struggles, but we should be able to do it better because we actually know more about functions of behavior.

And so we have to just find that middle ground. And so that's what I'm trying to do. I haven't been wildly successful at it, but it's starting to change morale. It's starting to make things easier and, at the base level of it, my clinicians are starting to feel better about managing their staff.

They're starting to feel more confident about it. I remember a couple of years ago we were having a valid data issue and we were getting a lot of goals on data sheets that look like they should be mastered out, and the kid was not [00:20:00] there. And so I was like, why is this happening? And so I did a lot of digging and what we came to is that nobody on our staff wanted to give the kid a minus because it personally offended them because they felt like they were talking negative about these clients that they really adored.

And we were using a plus minus prompt system. So when we changed to a numbered system that was similar to the peak method, our validity like completely increased because they were like, oh, I'm just noting how many times it took 'em to get there. I'm not saying that they're a terrible person and couldn't do it.

 And it's so silly because as behavior analysts were like, a minus is not a negative thing. I just need data. And, for them, they were like, oh, I don't, like I don't wanna give this kid a minus. That's bad. And and the reason why they were there is a whole bunch of social conditioning that I'm not gonna undo.

No matter how many times I tell them, I'm not necessarily gonna undo that.

And so why not just make the system work for them?

Allyson Wharam: Changing that frame [00:21:00] for them. I really love that. And I think that relates back to what you're doing with the assessment piece really well in that, it makes it a lot more neutral or safe to have those discussions. Otherwise, how do you as a supervisor bring that up in a way that feels safe for both of you?

Amy Theobold: So Jane, you're really not doing great with washing your clothes. Like you to work and you're smelly and also you need to get here on time. That is a terrible discussion. However, when we talk about, okay, so you struggle with planning. I totally get that. What are some things that you absolutely need to show up as your best self in your work.

Okay. We need to make sure that we have clean clothes and the appropriate attire to wear to work so that you're not thinking about it last minute and just throwing something on out of the dirty clothes pile. We need to think about do you have gas in your car? Maybe on Sundays you go and put gas in your car. We can actually walk them through the interventions.

But mostly what we can do is we can actually [00:22:00] guide them through creating their own interventions. Okay, so what day works for you to make sure that your car is gassed up? Like what day works for you to make sure that your doctor's appointments for the next week that you've asked for time off, like those type things.

And it's easy to say as an employer, I shouldn't have to do that. You don't have to, but if you want people to come and be great employees, sometimes they need support. It's funny to me because, like the population we work with, but we're not necessarily the best at being inclusive.

And so like we have a lot of neurodivergent techs. We have a lot of neurodivergent BCBAs that work for providers. And so, we really need to consider those things. So for example, a lot of our BBAs, we home grow. Actually all of our BBAs right now, we home grow. The ones that I have now, it's funny because, both of them are very ADHD. So when they passed their test, I wasn't like, okay, here, manage all your time, do all of these things. [00:23:00] No, I set up a sample schedule of time blocks that everything should occur during the week. And I set up a checklist of all of the non-negotiables that had to occur, and I set up all of these things.

And because I took the time to do that, now that they train BCBAs, they do the same for their BCBAs because they see it as the standard as support. Even if somebody doesn't have ADHD, those systems are still supportive to them. There's no reason not to use these methods that we have in our science to support our people that work for us.

They don't always have to do it all by themselves. Like sometimes we can, as owners and as providers, we can just bring it to them.

Allyson Wharam: Yeah, I think about that a lot with, any sort of coaching of the degree to which you support that performance initially. So I do a lot of school-based work, so it's when I'm going into a brand new classroom, for a new trainee, how much of that legwork am I doing for them initially?

And it's not that you're doing that forever, you're just providing enough support so that they can focus on engaging in the performance they [00:24:00] need to start. It's shaping essentially at its core of, yeah, how do I use this, environmental modification as an antecedent strategy, have that here, and then gradually release the steps that you are taking ownership of, and it's so much more successful than if you just say, okay, well here's everything you need to do and go figure it out because you're an adult and you should figure it out. 

Amy Theobold: You're a professional now. 

Allyson Wharam: That's not how behavior works. Yeah.

Amy Theobold: You're a professional, now go forth and do all these things. Which, we all know after being in the field for a while, the percentage of skills that they actually teach us in graduate school, versus what you actually need to be a confident, well-functioning, not burnt out professional is there's not a match there.

So why don't we just call it what it is and, be honest about those support systems that people might need.

Allyson Wharam: There was a survey, a recent survey by Brown, that was published in 2023, on early career support for BCBAs, basically. Part of it was looking at a [00:25:00] postgraduate supervision period, but part of it they asked information about what would you like more training and support on?

And the top area was in professional development, which were things like self-management and delegation and communication and collaboration, all of those things. Maybe not all of them fit neatly into executive functioning, but a lot of them do. That's part of what I think is so hard to plan for in that supervision experience is there's no way to really replicate the entirety of that job until you're in it. In that, you can work on the skills, you can work on making sure that they have the technical foundations and some of the interpersonal skills, the learning to learn skills, and self-management, but nothing can prepare you for all of the different deadlines that you're managing at the same time, or all of the intricacies of the reality of the job until you're in it.

Amy Theobold: The spider web of regulations, right? Like when your state board and the BACB and your funders and all of these things, I [00:26:00] have to laugh because one of my BCBAs sent me, they had looked up something on ABAcodes.net and they were like, what we're doing doesn't seem to fit this code, That's not the same as what Louisiana Medicaid says. So here's the code sheet from Louisiana Medicaid. They're not universal? I'm like, they're absolutely not. They're different for every single funder. And she was like, why do they make it so complex? But, that's not something that she was ever taught in graduate school.

And also genuinely, if you see something that you think we aren't doing right or maybe it changed or like whatever. Yes, bring that to me. I wanna know those things, I want to think about those things. And so it sparks those really good discussions. But the other thing that I think with new BCBAs is that they're not even really understanding that they do need mentorship.

Until those studies are the ones that they're five years out and they're looking back. But what we're not preparing graduate students for is the fact that you do need mentorship. That you do need [00:27:00] that professional development on your side. And you and I have a friend who does that piece beautifully.

Becky Eldridge, who does that new BCBA support. But it's like a lot of BBAs don't even realize that. And I'm always like, gosh, I wish I would've had a Becky in my pocket when I was a new BCBA. And so we as professionals need to do a better job of getting the word out to our supervisees that they need that professional development support from the moment they pass the test.

That doesn't always need to be within your organization. In fact, sometimes it can be super beneficial if you can find a source for that outside of your organization because it can help you keep your feet on the ground and also not get completely sucked into day to day, and you can actually think a little bit zoomed out so that maybe you can actually fix some things if they're not great for your work environment. I just think we need to do a better job at seasoned professionals of telling our new professionals [00:28:00] that.

Allyson Wharam: I totally agree. And creating an environment where it's safe to do that and safe to access that support. Part of that is modeling and proactively providing some of that. You didn't say, okay, you're a BCBA, you just passed your exam last week. Now go figure all of this out on own.

Even if we're talking about external mentorship, even within your organization, you're providing that foundation of saying this is just an expected part that we would provide you with some of this structure to move forward. I wanna close the loop on the assessment piece really quickly and then move onto supervision.

'cause I think there's a lot more there in terms of how we can be proactive during that as well. But I'm curious for this kind of process that you guys are undertaking, what does that look like on an ongoing basis? 

Amy Theobold: So in our organization we do a full day training for all of our staff bimonthly. And so we start with a training where we have everybody go through that assessment. And now what I [00:29:00] am figuring out the workflow on is like when people start between those trainings, because I'm not going to reassess everybody at every other training.

And so having them identify their potential strengths and their weaknesses. And then self set some goals as far as what their goals are. When I speak of goals as far as workplace things, it's attendance. It's emotional awareness, showing up ready to actually work.

We've had some situations in the past where people show up to work, but they're in the middle of a personal crisis and absolutely in tears. And I'm like, I love that you came to work, except I can't put you with a kid right now. So our BCBAs, the way our structure is set up, our BCBAs supervise every day.

Like they're with every kid that is in our clinic every day. Which I know is unique, but also

Allyson Wharam: But great.

Amy Theobold: But by design was set up that way. And we have a data sheet for our RLT's, and then those things are discussed about once a [00:30:00] week or at a minimum once a month. But it's really ongoing feedback in those things.

We work those executive functioning things right into that kind of process that already existed. And then the evidence of it is okay, your goal was to actually meet the attendance standard to get a bonus and you're on track for that.

Some people's goal... It's funny, and it's not funny. Like we'll have staff members that are like, I really need a raise. And I'm like, okay, but you only worked 75% of your available hours, so you would automatically give yourself a raise if you worked 80% available hours. And so just deciding what makes sense and what actually reinforcing for that staff member. And it's the funniest thing because paychecks aren't it.

Which is, seems weird. Yes, money at some level, obviously people leave all the time to go to better paying jobs, but on an immediate behavior change, it's too delayed.

It doesn't directly impact all of their [00:31:00] minor work behaviors that we need to be impacted just by the paycheck. We have to layer in some more, methods of reinforcement. We just try to get creative about that. And we aren't doing it perfectly. I'm not going to sit here and lie to you and be like, oh, it's working great.

It's a constant week to week discussion. It's a constant week to week change. Do you think that we could get a group contingency going for a specialized parking spot? What can we do? And we ask them, we ask the staff. And it's funny 'cause they come up with like very inventive ideas.

Sometimes during the summer I want somebody to bring in a snow cone machine, or I want, like whatever it is. What's really popular is our BCBA is giving them a break working for the BCBA to come in and give them a 15 minute break from their kid and to run the session.

That accomplishes two goals. First of all, the way our clinic is structured, we have multiple pairs of kids in the same room. If our BCBA is running a session with one of those kids, then observational [00:32:00] learning happens, right? So my techs are seeing my BCBA run that session. The other thing that's really great about that is that our techs remember that our BCBAs understand what their job is like because they know how to do it, number one.

And number two, all of our BCBAs were them. They all were techs. And so it's a great visual reminder of that. And so it's just constantly going back to them and trying to work that into the everyday kind of occurrence. And we try to slide it in within the structure that we already have, versus burning down the structure and starting over again.

Because that structure is pretty intricate. All of those things are set up to meet certain checkpoints that maybe we aren't daily aware of, but they're there for things like audit, and medical necessity, state laws, and all of these things. And so we don't wanna burn down the entire system.

We want to figure out how to layer it into things that we're already doing. And maybe just [00:33:00] tweak it a bit. As a new BCBA, that was a mistake I made a lot, was that somebody would be like, oh, I think this would be better. And so I would just burn the entire system down and start over again. And then I would realize, oh, I missed this metric.

I think that's also a word for new BCBA's. If older BCBA's seem really attached to their systems, give them a little grace and do a little bit of digging to try to figure out all of the intricacies because there may be intricacies in that system that you don't see or information that you don't have the context for.

And so ask those questions now if they won't answer your questions. I understand the criticism of course, but don't just assume that because the system seems rigid that it's wrong. 'Cause there's a lot of confounding variables in this industry. And unfortunately, like you actually need those systems to work because that's how the service stays sustainable.

Allyson Wharam: I think that's an important piece of self-advocacy. You've clearly [00:34:00] created an environment where people feel safe to bring those things up to you to ask questions or make suggestions just based on the examples that you've provided. So part of that is creating a culture where it's safe to do that.

And that is a skill that we need to teach and encourage. But the flip side of that, like you said, is, and when we're teaching this to our trainees or anyone as well, is to have them also do some perspective taking and start with curiosity to better understand something before trying to change it, essentially.

And so being curious is the best first place to start. And then having incoming ideas and suggestions or recommendations rather than just problems. 

Amy Theobold: And I do think too it has to be said, right? That, bigger systems may not even afford that luxury. And so I would say to new BCBAs when you're considering pay scales and things like that, you have to apply context and if your goal is just to get the highest paycheck that you [00:35:00] absolutely want, that's cool.

I'm not judging you. Go for it. But you need to understand that environments aren't, they aren't gonna match. For example, if you're working for a large corporation where you are primarily in the field, you're primarily in and out of homes, you're not gonna have a lot of exposure to other professionals who can mentor you, who can give you some professional development.

And so you have to do an even more intentional job of seeking that for yourself. Because it is ultimately your responsibility as a professional. And I think that's the other thing too, is a lot of times there seems to be this attitude that it is the expectation that the employer provide the BCBA with all of those things.

And yes, I try to meet my BCBA's there and I try to do that, but ultimately it's actually not my responsibility as an employer. Like your license and your certification is in your own [00:36:00] hands. And so you really have to take your profession into your own hands and take responsibility for that and not expect that somebody else will bring it to you or spoonfeed you because they may not.

Now do I suggest that you seek out a smaller type setting that is antecedently set up for you to succeed better? Absolutely, I do. Absolutely I do. But sometimes it's hard to figure that out. Unless you like know somebody who works there or unless you, personally know the ins and out of the organization, it's hard to figure that out until you're actually hired.

And so those are all things to think about as a new BCBA when you're like seeking out an organization to go to work in.

Allyson Wharam: What are some questions or things you might look for? Like you said, you don't really know until you get there, also to your point, small doesn't automatically equal having these supports. 

Amy Theobold: BCBA owned also doesn't automatically guarantee it. It doesn't, unfortunately. Yeah.

Allyson Wharam: So, what are some things you would look for in terms of some green [00:37:00] flags? I guess especially as it pertains to those kind of executive functioning or self-management, things that will help you learn the job of being at BCBA.

Amy Theobold: There's some tells as far as structure and so making sure that you ask thorough questions about compensation, I think is a big key. Which seems a little skeptical but, hear me out on this. If a company is driven solely on billable minimums and all of those things, then there's an understanding of exactly how you have to meet these things.

But now the next question is: Is that realistic for me to be able to meet that? And so understanding clearly what is billable and what is not billable, understanding like clearly what is a billable hour? Asking questions like what averages do the BCBAs that are currently employed for you meet? Like what kind of billable minimums do they [00:38:00] meet?

And asking what the day-to-day looks like. Do I have the capability to supervise one of my clients every day? Are we all in clinic or do I have to drive all over the place? And that takes some executive functioning skills too, right? Actually digging it out and almost task analysis of what your day to day would actually look like.

It's interesting because like we'll have people leave our organization because we don't pay necessarily as high as somebody else, and they're like, but they don't pay for any of my health insurance and they don't pay for short-term and long-term disability, and they don't do this, and they don't do that.

And I'm like, yes. And and I work, 40% more because of the way the schedule is. And I'm like, yes. And it's always tragic to me because I'm like I could have told you those things, but then at some point when I tell people those things, it comes across as me trying to be a used car salesman for our organization.

You have to figure that stuff out. We have techs leave us all the time and then want to come [00:39:00] back because when they get to a new clinic, they were offered 50 cents more an hour. They didn't realize that they were only gonna be paid for the hours that they were actually with a kid, and then they were gonna be paid minimum wage for the time that they weren't with a kid.

Yeah, that's a substantial difference because we paid the same rate all the time. We actually don't have a billable minimum for our BCBAs. I probably should have set one, but business-wise it just hasn't ever felt like something I wanted to do. I want them just to serve the clients we have and to flow with that.

And as long as other markers are in place, and I don't feel like we need to have that. So going into a system where you have a 30 hour a week billable minimum, understand that more than half the work we do in this industry is unpaid. And so if you can't bill for half the work, what kind of work week does that tell you that you're actually going to be working?

Ask questions about what's the expectation as far as being available by phone or email or whatever. At our clinic when our [00:40:00] clinicians leave after the day between four 30 and five, there is a very rare expectation that I expect them to respond to a text or an email or anything else after that time or on a weekend.

That's just not an expectation that does not hold true to all ABA companies. And so just ask those questions and actually understand what your day-to-day life is going to look like for you to be successful within that organization.

Allyson Wharam: I totally agree. I think there are a lot of hidden contingencies. At the surface, it might look one way, but when you unpack everything else, there are so many other things that dictate what that work environment looks like, and the higher number in terms of your salary may not actually translate to a higher hourly wage, for example when you account for hours actually worked. And then to tie that back into kind of everything we've been talking about, when you're having to plan for extra steps or contingencies in that environment that maybe wouldn't have to in another environment, [00:41:00] that can also take a toll as you're learning the job.

So the example you gave us was drive time between clients. Some of that might be unavoidable, but even within that, are there questions that you could ask about how that's structured? Like on average, how long is the drive time between clients or how do you adjust billable expectations to account for that?

Amy Theobold: And just understanding as well. So for example, I worked for a national company when I first started and I was already commuting like an hour to where their office was. And the agreement was that they were supposed to schedule me within an hour radius between the office and my home.

So it was like in between. But their national scheduling department didn't understand the geography of where I was. And so they literally would schedule me for a session that was like two hours away from my home, over a bridge, over like all these things. And understanding who's making those decisions for you?

What kind of input do you have into it? Can you just decline? Can you [00:42:00] decline a client based on geographic location? A lot of companies you wouldn't be allowed to, so just asking all of those questions and also knowing what's really important to you. For some people 12 hour days is not a big deal, right?

For other people that, that's a no. So understanding your strengths and your weaknesses and how you function best. I am not the clinician to show up somewhere and run a session at 7:00 AM. That's not me. Like I'm not your girl for that. I'm not gonna be at my best, I'm gonna be mad the entire time I'm there because I don't wanna be up that early.

And if that's how they function, then, understanding that is not gonna be in line with like how you personally function? I do believe that BCBA's can find careers, whether it's in the autism world or whether it's starting their own path. They just have to be brave to do it and to understand that they have to own their own needs [00:43:00] and own their own strengths.

And sometimes it takes some like professional experience to decide what those are. But we all don't have to work for clinics and it doesn't have to look exactly like this. Our skills are needed. We just have to be brave enough to figure out a way and figure out a place for them to be used.

Allyson Wharam: And I think so much of that starts with this self-awareness of able to evaluate your values. Like you said, what's reinforcing to you, but also your skills, what your strengths are, are you able to work effectively from home? There are just so many nuances. And that self-assessment piece is really critical there.

So with all that being said, I think that all of this translates to supervision really well. One thing that I always struggle with, because I try to be incredibly supportive, and sometimes I think I actually err on the side of being too supportive.

Amy Theobold: Me too.

Allyson Wharam: Uhhuh

Amy Theobold: Yep.

Allyson Wharam: Too forgiving. And I do think [00:44:00] there's that fine line or that fine balance of you do wanna provide the infrastructure and the support to make sure that someone is successful.

What I struggle with is where is the line of where that's actually a disservice to that person because then they aren't maybe contacting some natural contingencies that they would otherwise. How do you think about that?

Amy Theobold: That's actually a constant struggle of my own as well. And I think where I've landed on it and what our research would show us is that I actually think the upfront setting of expectations is really important. And me personally, sometimes I assume that other people understand what the expectations are

What I've learned, especially with executive functioning work and also working with the age group of between 18 to 25, they don't, their base of what we assume is like [00:45:00] professional, like what we assume is like how you show up to go to work, is completely different than what my assumptions are.

Okay. And so it doesn't really serve me well just to be mad that they're not meeting my expectations when they don't even know what my expectations are. And so I have to be so much better about being very clear on the upfront with what the expectations are. And also, I have to be willing to have those really hard conversations as things come up and be like, okay, this was my expectation.

What was your expectation? Okay, there was a mismatch there. So let's fix this and this this is the expectation moving forward. And there are times that I have to just be like, I'm your boss, so it has to be done this way for numerous reasons. And I don't necessarily want to explain them all to you in this time and place.

We can have that discussion another time. But at this point, like this has to be the [00:46:00] expectation. And so we just have to be comfortable with setting those expectations, but we also have to have the integrity to live by those expectations ourself. 

Allyson Wharam: Yeah, that modeling piece I think is really essential. But yeah, like you said, there are times where it just is a non-negotiable, but I think being as proactive as possible is really important. I'll give you an example. We are, again, probably overly supportive. So we, at the end of each month, send out via a document signing platform, the monthly verification forms.

Now, when I got my hours my supervisor was not doing any of that for me. If I did not find the form, print it out, fill it out, bring it to her office, it was not getting signed. And already there is some inherent structure there that is an antecedent strategy to help with this. And yet we still have trainees who wait until the last minute.

Even though we try to set an expectation that it's done by mid month and things like that. And actually had a [00:47:00] couple of times where even the same person will not sign it on time and then lose their hours for that month. And you would think that would be enough punisher, but in our experience that actually wasn't. 

Amy Theobold: Accountability system, Like a clear accountability system of what happens if you don't if that doesn't happen. That right there. I made some big mistakes, I was an early supervisor because it was like the wild west of ABA and we were just trying to like, serve as many kids we could and do as many supervisees as we could and all of these things, and I made those same mistakes, and then it's funny because I'm like you didn't bring it to me and I didn't sign it, so I'm not gonna I can't sign it six months later. And and then they get mad at you and it's yeah, I should have done a better job at setting those expectations and holding them accountable.

Instead of just ignoring it and being like I guess they'll figure it out when they don't have their hours. I should have had that conversation upfront, which is hard to do when you're like a new BCBA and you're not fully mature and it's hard to have those things, but those are skills that we have to have. 

Allyson Wharam: [00:48:00] For sure. For sure. And even within that, giving reminders, it was kinda like, at what point someone's not going to be holding your hand. 

Amy Theobold: I know more about this than you do?

Allyson Wharam: That for sure. Yeah, I can provide you all the support, but if you don't care enough to get this thing done whether it's like completing assignments or, even just getting the hours for that month.

I can't do your independent hours for you like that. Just you have to take ownership of that.

Amy Theobold: And those are like conversations that I have with my college students too. And I always tell parents upfront. First of all, I don't ever let a parent pay for a coaching semester until I actually talk to the student because the student's the one who has to consent and the student is the one who has to be engaged.

But I tell parents all the time, I can't make your kids do their work. I'm also not doing their homework for them. Now if they need help breaking down an assignment into doable pieces. I can do that and I will do that, but I'm not doing it for them. And that's the same with supervisees is I can't do this for you.

You have to take [00:49:00] some responsibility for your own profession. Nobody can spoonfeed this to you. You have to be an active participant. And also having the willingness of, if somebody misses that a couple of times, being like, are you engaged in this process?

Should we even continue? Because because let's be real, supervision takes a lot of time. And I know that there's there's a chasm where people are like, oh, you shouldn't have to pay for supervision. But at the same time, whoever's supervising you if you are not paying them is doing unpaid work because it is a lot of work.

Allyson Wharam: A lot of work.

Amy Theobold: Yeah, it's a lot of work. And so honoring the truth of how, what that commitment is like for both parties and if you're not engaged and participatory in that process, then maybe we need to discontinue that supervisory relationship which some would say is harsh, but it's not because you can't just keep repeating those things over and over again.

Those are the things that contribute to [00:50:00] poor morale and burnout and all of those things in our profession. And at some point we have to be willing to end relationships if necessary.

Allyson Wharam: Yeah, and I think the proactive piece, again, that you have kept coming back to as well, and setting those expectations is really important. You mentioned that in that assessment for your staff, part of that process is talking about why those things are important.

Amy Theobold: We have to remember that consequences are both positive and negative, socially positive and negative. We can't just go back to the like cultural explanation of a consequence. A consequence is either positive or negative.

And so what we want to remind and keep salient for those people is like what consequence they're working towards, so like for my college students, it's interesting because what I saw immediately is the ones that do better are the ones that, number one knows what they know, what happens if they don't do well? What is the consequence to that?

And the ones that there was [00:51:00] a consequence to not doing well, did better than the ones that it was my parents will just figure it out and we just have to help me find my path. This very like abstract concept versus no, if I don't stay in college towards this career path, then I need to get a job and I need to do something that I don't wanna do.

That helped the situation. The other thing is understanding what meaningful outcome they were actually working towards, which is a consequence, right? And so the kids that do the poorest are the ones that are like, I don't know what I want to do. I don't even have any idea what I'm gonna do with my college degree.

I'm just here 'cause it's where you go after high school. I'm not really interested in anything. And so it's very hard to build meaningful behavior change towards a goal or a consequence that you're not even invested in receiving. And as an adult we have to have the ability to set immediate consequences for ourselves that matter to ourselves.

Maybe it's literally just the fact that you completed another week that might be your [00:52:00] consequence that week, right? And for some of my college students, it's literally proving that they can get through a boarding class or that they are one step closer to figuring out what major they want to have.

Or maybe they're committed to not having to go to school anymore.

Allyson Wharam: Yeah.

Amy Theobold: And they know that getting a degree will help that in some aspect, so it's just like whatever personally matters to you, but you have to have the effort and the awareness to make those decisions for yourself.

Allyson Wharam: Absolutely. I think there are layers to the contingencies of, what are those long term, more delayed, more values based or outcomes or goals, not that those are all the same things, but what are those bigger picture things?

Amy Theobold: And I guess my question for somebody in supervision who's struggling with that also, just because I am the person I am, I would be super curious and understanding if there were some values there where they were concerned about their ability to succeed once they got the professional credential.

I would really be interested to talk to them as a [00:53:00] supervisor and just like using some of our act skills and see if there's some like other impeding setting events that are happening with that.

Because, we know the pay difference between BCBA and RBT, so there is a big financial contingency to making that happen for yourself. If you are not committed to it, then is it not the field for you? Are you concerned that you're not actually capable or are you concerned that you're not gonna like it?

What is that, in that competing contingency?

Allyson Wharam: That's really interesting to think about. This is really helpful. I think that there are a lot of skills that are important and relevant related to this that we can support with as supervisors. And I appreciate talking through them with you.

Amy Theobold: Yeah, we went really long!

Allyson Wharam: I know, sorry. No, it's great. I am sorry to, to keep you. It was good to talk about this though, because I think to our very first point, it's easy to think about these skills for our learners and think about how we break down [00:54:00] something as simple as task initiation. But we just we lose sight of that for our adult learners.

And so it was really great to talk through a lot that with you.

Amy Theobold: It doesn't stop at age eight with checklist, like we actually have to move forward. 

Allyson Wharam: No, it doesn't. And I think I'm excited to see how this performance system for you evaluates or evolves over time because I think it'll be really interesting to see how those skills evolve and how that impacts their lives. These are all ultimately pivotal skills that we're talking about that then influence other skills.

And I just imagine whether they stay in the field of ABA, how that is going to ripple out and ideally positively influence their lives in the long term. So yeah. And if people wanna find you, you are @evolvinganalyst on Instagram and @collegeadhdcoach on Instagram as well. 

Amy Theobold: Yep. And we should have some, probably in the next couple months, we're gonna have some CEUs coming out on using universal design learning principles and executive [00:55:00] functioning as a lens for supervision. So people watch out for those.

Allyson Wharam: That's awesome. I was thinking about Universal Design for Learning as you were talking about how the systems you created for your technicians with your BCB's with ADHD actually benefited everyone else because that is the core of Universal Design for Learning. Excited to see those come out.

Thank you so much for being here, Amy.

Amy Theobold: Yep. Have a great day.

Allyson Wharam: You too.