From Struggles to Success: Alan Lazaros and Kevin Palmieri of Next Level University⁩ Journey

This week, Jess & Claude are joined by Alan Lazaros and Kevin Palmieri from Next Level University—two long-time friends and business partners who have recorded over 2,000 episodes and built a movement around personal development and daily growth.

Tune in as we dive into:

• How their friendship is the foundation of everything they’ve built.
• Why being vulnerable and open is essential in leadership.
• The daily grind of content creation—and how they’ve stayed consistent for nearly a decade.
• What’s changed (and what hasn’t) in podcasting since 2015.
• Their mission to help others grow by 1% every day.
• The importance of having a bestie who gives honest feedback and lifts you up.
• How they’re giving back through a charity for single parents.

If you’re building with a bestie or dreaming of launching something with impact—this episode will remind you that the journey is better (and more powerful) when you do it together.

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Work Besties! Theme Song Written by Ralph Lentini @therallyband

Transcript

Introduction to Kevin and Alan

Jess 0:00

Hello WorkBesties . Today we have Alan and Kevin , and their story is a testament to the strength of their friendship , as well as a shared purpose . But what key lesson did they learn about balancing personal growth as well as maintaining that supportive friendship ? You're going to have to stay to the end to find that out .

Claude 0:18

Hi , I'm Claude and I'm Jess . We are corporate employees by day , entrepreneurs by night and work besties for life .

Jess 0:26

Join us as we explore how work besties lift each other up , laugh through the chaos and thrive together in every industry . Work besties Welcome to Work Besties , kevin and Alan . It's so nice to meet you .

Kevin Palmieri 0:42

Thank you so very much for having us . We're excited to chat with dual podcast hosts like we are and dual work besties . Yes , 100% .

Alan Lazaros 0:50

You two know the deal of being work besties . A lot of people told us in the beginning don't do it , it won't work out , and we're very grateful we stuck with it because this is awesome . Thank you so much for having us .

The Birth of Next Level University

Kevin Palmieri 1:06

Why don't you two talk about how you two started ? I was somewhat successful in my corporate America career , but success externally led to a lot of stuff that I was dealing with internally , so I went through some mental health problems . I had some suicidal ideations , ended up starting a podcast . I didn't know anything about podcasting before Alan introduced me to interview style YouTube channels because he had me on his YouTube channel Fell in love with that whole thing . I always wanted to help people . I just never knew how I wanted to do . It Started my podcast . Alan was the first guest that I had Ended up dealing with some suicidal ideations and mental health problems at my job .

Kevin Palmieri 1:43

I left my job in 2018 . And then Alan and I partnered up together because he was my mentor at the time . He was the person who knew way more about self-improvement , way more about business . Obviously , I'm taller and better looking than he is , so that has really worked out in my favor over the years . You and Andy Yang yeah , you have to have that , claude , it's very important , right ? But we had a very similar thought process of what got us in trouble in life was lack of clarity , it was lack of self-improvement and it was lack of personal development . So if we could bring that to the world through a podcast , that would be the thing that we could do . And now , as of today , we recorded our 2000th episode right before this . So we've been doing this since 2018 , full time since 2017 .

Jess 2:34

We have a podcast all about self-improvement . Thank you , I appreciate it very much . Huge kudos for those that are not in podcasting , which the number that don't even make it to 50 , is pretty astronomical , the fact that you're at 2000 .

Kevin Palmieri 2:46

Wow , Well , I think it speaks to how lucky we are to have each other . I like to think that I would have gotten here without Alan . There's no way I would have . I probably wouldn't have gotten past 15 or 20 . Alan , I think , would have been way more successful alone than I would have been successful alone , but we've definitely helped each other . Stay consistent , for sure .

Claude 3:06

That reminds me of Jess and I Like Jess , I'm sure would be more successful by herself than me , by myself .

Kevin Palmieri 3:15

So you're me , Claude .

Jess 3:16

That's nice . I'm Kevin . It's the yin and the yang we need each other to help . Exactly 2,000 episodes . What was the podcasting world like eight years ago ?

Kevin Palmieri 3:34

There were far less podcasts . The whole video thing wasn't really a thing . Nobody was doing virtual interviews . So , yeah , I think there was a lot of people just kicking the tires on what this newish thing could be . The thing that was beneficial for us is not a lot of people were taking it that seriously . We started , we went all in , we were traveling to interview people , we were spending lots of money that we didn't have . We were doing all this stuff , and I think the other important piece is 2017 , 2018 , it was , I won't say , a lot easier to get big guests , but there weren't as many people reaching out to them .

Kevin Palmieri 4:08

Now people are just getting bombarded with messages , so I think the playing

Podcasting World Eight Years Ago

Kevin Palmieri 4:14

field was a little bit more level back then .

Alan Lazaros 4:17

Did I miss anything , alan ? I think social media was different back then . For sure , instagram was still really really useful and it's not not useful Now . We still use it . We use Instagram , facebook , whatsapp . We use LinkedIn as well , but Instagram was , I mean you could could DM an author and get . They'd get back to you that day .

Alan Lazaros 4:35

Now again , I think part of that was cause I had a following and I was in fitness and I was a fitness model . I mean , we were getting DMS from listeners regularly , constantly , and we didn't realize at the time that that wasn't normal right . So we went from the first year we only did 1,054 listens to the second year we did like 25,000 . Our growth rate was nuts back then . Now we're much more successful 175 countries , 2,000 episodes . But it's definitely a different game now , for sure .

Claude 5:06

So it was easier to really establish yourself back then and then grow at the same time as the podcast world was growing .

Kevin Palmieri 5:09

Back then people weren't starting podcasts to make them into businesses . Some people were , because there's always going to be people ahead of the curve on that . But most people were like , let me see what happens with this . So I think the failure rate back then it's high today , but it was different back then . It was just if you could be consistent and you were committed , you were already going to get ahead of most people . There's two of us , so if you're going to work for 16 hours , we're going to work for 16 hours times two . So it's going to be really hard to keep up with that .

Claude 5:38

So , for our listeners , what is the name of your podcast ?

Kevin Palmieri 5:42

It is called Next .

Alan Lazaros 5:43

Level University , next Level U . Next Level University , next Level U . Pun intended , so I'm Alan , version 3.6 . I'm 36 , even though I look 15 . Kevin is 35 . Kevin version 3.5 . That joke . I used to say I'm hoping to hit puberty at 37 , but now I got a little mustache going .

Claude 6:00

Can't say that anymore .

Alan Lazaros 6:01

Yeah yeah , thank you . First mustache at 36 . Seriously , it was a big deal for me ,

1% Improvement Philosophy

Alan Lazaros 6:08

but anyways . So Next Level University , it's 1% improvement in your pocket , heart-driven , but no BS . Holistic self-improvement for dream chasers it's anyone who has an aspiration or a dream , who wants to get to the next level of their life love , health and wealth . So self-improvement in your pocket , from anywhere on the planet , completely free . It's on the deepest level . It's Kevin and I are the male role models we never had growing up . I think that's the deeper purpose underneath it , because we both grew up without fathers . But I think that it's that 1% improvement per day thing of just you need to be inspired , motivated and educated a little bit each day . You're not going to change your whole world overnight , but you can get a little better each day and if you do the math on that I'm a big engineering math guy it changes everything . I mean our life is night and day , compared to when we both had what we call our quarter life crises .

Alan Lazaros 6:52

Kevin mentioned suicidal ideation . I had my car accident and so we both grew up in the same town . Both grew up without fathers . My father passed away when I was two . His father he met when he was 27 for the first time , when we were both in our mid-20s . He had suicidal ideation , so he faced mortality and I got in that car accident . My dad died in a car . That just flipped the script for me .

Alan Lazaros 7:12

After that we reconnected . We were friends in middle school . He didn't like me in high school and I didn't like that , he didn't like me , so we didn't get along . And then we reconnected in our mid-20s and we started spending Father's Days together Every Father's Day . We have been doing that ever since , so we've spent every Father's Day together for eight years . We used to fish . Now we have a charity for single parents , children of single parents , called the Next Level Hope Foundation . But essentially we just 1% improvement every single day . That's our motto and we are trying to lead by example and help people grow a little bit each day , not just in success and wealth , but in health and fitness and in their intimate relationship as well .

Alan Lazaros 7:51

Because we were both broke as a joke and single as hell back then and really wildly unfulfilled .

Kevin Palmieri 7:56

So we were in really good shape , though at the time we were in really good shape , so notice how I left that one out .

Alan Lazaros 8:00

Drop that in , by the way , that's the only thing that hasn't gotten better , to be honest , and we do an episode every day .

Kevin Palmieri 8:08

I know you asked about the frequency of an episode . Every day . Every day Christmas , birthdays , holidays , sunday , it doesn't matter . There's an episode dropping every day .

Jess 8:17

And do you guys pre-record , or are they on every day ?

Kevin Palmieri 8:26

Monday was the day we record . We try on mondays , what it's called marathon mondays . We would try to record seven episodes . I'd come out of the office and go see my wife and she said how many did you get done ? Just one , yeah . We had a lot of a lot of business talks today , so we used to batch them . We would try to do it all in one sitting . Now today's friday , so we recorded tomorrows and Sundays right before this .

Claude 8:42

Content is always so hard right , Especially at one a day . So how do you keep up with staying fresh

Content Creation Strategies

Claude 8:54

and relatable , always going with your theme of that 1% ?

Alan Lazaros 8:59

The benefits of being holistic self-improvement is that we health , wealth and love . While that seems narrow , we get to talk about kind of whatever we want . There's a lot that can fit into each of those right . So we can talk fitness , we can talk consistency , community . We can talk about a lot of things . So that's number one . We're narrow enough to be meaningful , but wide enough to where we can actually do an episode every day .

Alan Lazaros 9:20

What does our listener need ? What do we want to talk about ? Because if we don't have passion , it's not going to flow and what's going to actually be clicked on ? So those are sort of the three , based on our understanding of our listener now , and that's evolved a lot over the years , obviously . So Kevin and I are growing and Alan , version 3.6 , and Kevin , version 3.5 , are not passionate about the same things we are . Self-improvement is the through line , so that's never changed . But we're both much more in business right now .

Alan Lazaros 9:50

So we have to , we have to try to take okay , what are you reading ? All right , what am I reading ? All right , I'm reading this book . Okay , what's the concept ? Boom , boom , boom . So we try to keep it fresh and that's actually why we don't batch , because we've tried we've literally tried to batch 14 episodes . So he went to Scotland last year . We had to batch I think 21 episodes is the most we've ever batched and it was hard because it wasn't as fresh . We also and I got to be very transparent about this kind of have no life I'm joking . We work really hard and we work six days a week front facing , and then we still work on Sundays too . So our model doesn't work for everybody and we're definitely workhorses that came from nothing . So that's a part of it too that we got to be just transparent .

Jess 10:25

You commented about . You've got a lot of clients . Do you try and take what's going on in your life with these clients and make that a part of the main focus ?

Alan Lazaros 10:33

Constantly .

Jess 10:35

Okay , so that kind of keeps it fresh too , I would assume .

Kevin Palmieri 10:40

We're very different . We are polar opposites , but very similar . It's very strange how this whole thing has worked out . I'll have a story and then I'll think like what could I do a podcast episode on that ?

Kevin Palmieri 10:52

How could I make that an episode ? So I was going shopping one time . It was around the holiday season . I went to Target in December Worst idea ever of all time , don't do that . But there was a guy helping me and he's like yeah , let me run to the back and grab your stuff . And he was very clearly overwhelmed , he was very clearly overworked , he was stressed out . There probably had been some people that weren't super nice to him . And he came over and when he went to give me my bags , we like held hands for a second because I was trying to grab the bags and he's like oh , I'm so sorry'm so sorry , man . I was like , hey , you're good . Like thank you so much for your help , I appreciate it so much .

Kevin Palmieri 11:27

And we formulated an episode of like humility out of that . Is there any reason for me to further make that person's life slash day hard ? No , it's not that big of a deal . What are we doing here ? So I usually come with a story and then we'll make an episode . Alan usually comes with a lesson and then we'll make an episode from that . So I'm story first , alan is lesson first . So as long as I'm experiencing life . We'll have a story . Alan's always learning , so we'll always have something .

Kevin Palmieri 11:57

Yeah , it has to be something that we actually want to talk about . We used to be the podcast who I would do research and SEO , like what titles work , and we don't do that as much now . I think it's very important in the beginning , but now it's like I'm going to title it this because that's what we talked about , and is it the best , most search engine friendly one ? Probably not , but I want to make sure that we're doing it in the way that we want to do it now , more than playing the game , and that's been a big shift for us .

Jess 12:27

That's an area where you can get to and you've built quite the community .

Kevin Palmieri 12:30

Yeah , don't do that in the beginning .

Jess 12:34

All you podcasters , please note build your community first .

Kevin Palmieri 12:37

Yeah , you've got to learn that stuff and see what works and see what doesn't , and we're privileged , through work , in things that we can test now versus in the beginning .

The Yin-Yang Business Partnership

Alan Lazaros 12:51

Go ahead . Alan . I'm starting BGU , so NLU is Next Level University Podcast . Growth University is his podcast because he's the podcast guy . And then I have Business Growth University starting this year because I'm the business guy , and so we call them listeners , longers and business owners . So listeners want to learn from us , longers want to build their own podcasts in their own communities , and then business owners are people who , like us , are screwed if they don't generate revenue , and so I coach the business owners . Some business owners want to start a podcast for marketing and branding . Some podcasters need to build a business , otherwise they go out of business . At this stage , I think Kevin's mastered the title so much and so well that he can real quick do things .

Jess 13:24

Do what the rest of us do and just search the SEO terms .

Alan Lazaros 13:26

Yeah , which , in the beginning , like I think his brain is really good at going okay , this is going to land with our audience , this is what will land with SEO and this is what we know . Okay , boom . And half the time I don't even agree with the title , but I also know that I'm an engineer and no one cares about what I care about . We figured out he's good with people and I'm good with systems and structure and metrics , and every business needs both . By the way , if I can give a little side tangent , every business needs to be really , really , really good at these two things systems , metrics , structures , discipline , boom boom , organization . That's me , definitely . And then the other one is creative and with people . So kevin's really good with people . Everyone likes him , nobody likes me . He's good with people and he's really good and very , very creative . I'm the metrics and system . I mean he tracks 18 metrics and 19 habits I think 18 as of today . But that's not because of him , it's because- .

Kevin Palmieri 14:17

Yeah , and I don't want to do that . I don't want to , but I have to .

Alan Lazaros 14:20

Right . So the train tracks are set up for success and then the creativity . He flows within those train tracks .

Jess 14:26

A topic that we in the WorkFesty platform talk about a lot . You both are a yin and a yang right . You compliment each other , and it feels like the same thing is really necessary in a business partnership too . So , because you guys are friends , what are some challenges , or maybe even hacks you find are helpful because of your friendship with businesses ?

Alan Lazaros 14:53

I'm going to make this sound wrong , I'm going to just own it . So I'm a type A . I got all my awards in the background . I'm a type A . I always have been . I've been hiding it and too cowardly to say it , but I always have been . So make sure your yin is yanging . So I'm not as creative . I'm an engineer Everything's numbers , everything's metrics , everything's structure . That's who I am and I think business needs that . But it also needs creative and a people person .

Alan Lazaros 15:18

Kevin and I are polar opposites in our thinking . He's short-term , I'm long-term , actively paranoid and humble . I'm long-term , optimist and we've switched in certain situations , especially when it comes to people . But ultimately we have a yin and a yang and that's great . But one of the things that is similar is our core values .

Alan Lazaros 15:35

We both came from very little . We both were broke as a joke when we were younger and I told him this . I said , kev , I never could work with you if you had any level of entitlement . We are earners to our core and if you don't have humility and work ethic and you want big rewards for minimal effort , you just will never like us . Because we aren't that way .

Alan Lazaros 15:55

We have a culture in our company and in our blood , for lack of better phrasing just our upbringing of earn every dollar . There is no quick fix , there is no shortcut , there is no know your value and charge 10 grand even though you've never done this before type of stuff inside of us . Like we both started coaching for free and then it was 50 bucks a week and then it was 75 and then it was up from there and so we built this , coming up on a half million dollar business , which is awesome , but like we started from nothing , literally and figuratively . And I think the core value that we have in common is impact first , money second Okay , you can't have money last because you'll go out of business . But impact is first Heart driven , but no BS , self improvement . And I would say we're similar in our core but we're very different in our thinking .

Kevin Palmieri 16:43

I have an answer , and it's an answer in the direction you wanted it , jess , because that sounded supremely positive , which it is for the most part . I'll come to Alan and I'll be like brother , are you sitting down ? I have the best idea maybe you've ever heard in your entire life and it's maybe the dumbest idea that has ever been spoken audibly , ever , ever . Sometimes my creativity gets the best of me and I will do things that are not necessarily best for momentum , but it's like this seems like a really good opportunity . Why aren't we doing this ? We could have an ice cream truck . Why

Facing Fears and Personal Growth

Kevin Palmieri 17:16

don't we do that ? Everybody needs ice cream .

Kevin Palmieri 17:19

And Alan's like Kev holistic self-improvement for dream chases . Okay , cool . So I'm a pain in the butt that way for sure . Alan is essentially my boss . I know it might not seem like that , but he is and he's the CEO and he's the leader for a reason . Sometimes that sucks when it goes from like we're supposed to record from 6 to 7 pm and then it goes from 7 to 8 pm . It's like that kind of sucks and very quickly I get over it because I'm way more grateful for the benefits than that slight pain in the butt inconvenience . So I think , without the upside the downside would kind of stink . But without the downside you wouldn't get the upside .

Jess 18:03

Right .

Kevin Palmieri 18:04

As long as the benefits outweigh whatever else . You're dealing with and you have gratitude . I have gratitude for the fact that Alan is such a great leader . I would have crashed into the iceberg , backed up and crashed into the iceberg again . We would be in trouble if I was running this . But you should have ice for your ice cream . I would Thank you See A lot of people . I really like that positive mindset Smell ice can you ? That's what I need .

Alan Lazaros 18:29

A little .

Kevin Palmieri 18:29

Titanic reference . Over the last eight years , I think we've just we just have gotten to learn each other and we know each other at a really deep level . And you know , I know Alan doesn't like when I talk about him as the leader , the great leader that he is . He gets nervous . That's my job to tell people about that , because he won't say it himself . So , yeah , we have a wonderful thing , but wonderful things do come with inconveniences at times . At what point in life are you not going to have some inconveniences ? At least they're the higher quality ones , as of today , Claude , I saw you grinning ear to ear .

Jess 18:59

I want to hear your perspective Again .

Kevin Palmieri 19:01

I'm going to say I'm kidding , I figured , Claude , I figured . When you started smiling I was like that's .

Claude 19:07

Except that Jess also has the relationship with the people as well . Right , depends . Yeah , I'm the Kevin . Jess is really the organizer , the number person .

Jess 19:20

She calls me , miss Bossy , that's what .

Claude 19:22

I get .

Jess 19:25

I'm called .

Claude 19:26

CEO . So you're lucky . No , I'm saying CEO . No , no , I would say CEO . It's actually funny , because last time we were having drinks and something came up , I'm like , yeah , you're bossy . Since then she takes it . She's like there's bossy here , but thank God for Jess , because if it was just me , we'd be nowhere . I would still be on my couch sending each other memes .

Alan Lazaros 19:49

It's going to be very uncomfortable for you to allow her to say that right . For the longest time , I wanted to save Kevin from admitting some of those things , but that's true humility , that's vulnerability and that's courage . The truth is , kevin was going to be successful , but he wasn't going to be this successful , and you're not really allowed to say that socially , which is why everyone doesn't like me .

Jess 20:12

Or it wouldn't be as fun .

Alan Lazaros 20:14

Well , it definitely wouldn't be as fun , he's hilarious , I wouldn't be as successful .

Kevin Palmieri 20:18

I mean I guarantee this ice cream truck thing could take off right . It could Next level ice cream , it's true .

Alan Lazaros 20:26

So one thing that I really want to make as clear as I can , because I think this is a golden nugget that I would have wanted and I'm going to give it to you just I had kevin rate me from zero to ten on a list of intimidation signs of an intimidating character I'm too scared to do that .

Alan Lazaros 20:43

There's 30 character traits I can send them to , and he gave me the lowest score I got on . Any of the 30 is an eight , and so it was . 9.5 was the average . I added them all up in an average . One of the things that I'll share with everybody is that everyone I've ever coached I coached 25 people currently and it's been hundreds over the years and I've been coaching for mentoring for 10 years , coaching for thousands and thousands of hours . I have them all tracked . Mentoring for 10 years , coaching for eight , thousands and thousands of hours . I have them all tracked and I'm not saying that to brag . I'm saying that so that you know I'm not just talking .

Alan Lazaros 21:11

The thing that I've found is that everyone is better at one thing or the other . So you are either really good at success and you have a lot of self-belief , and you're really good at systems and structure and success and organization type A , what's known as conscientiousness in the Hexaco personality test , which Jess probably is or you're really good at relationships . Now , a lot of people who are type A . We learn how to chameleon and how to dim ourselves to try to get along with people , but we intimidate the hell out of people when we are our true selves . So we basically usually shrink and we pretend not to believe in ourselves . We make fun of ourselves all the time and it makes us socially accepted and it makes us feel like we belong . But then behind the scenes , we're just like let's go , baby , let's do it Right . See , it's resonating .

Jess 21:58

This is literally me every day .

Alan Lazaros 22:00

This is a story that I think will make this land better than I can ever have articulated in the past . Kevin and I interviewed someone named Stephen Kotler , so he wrote a book called the Art of Impossible and this was back in 2019 . And Kevin and I interviewed him for , I think , episode six . And around that time , every Father's Day we would spend together and we'd go fishing and there was this Father's Day sort of family barbecue that we were at where I used to live and Kev said dude , I feel like I belong at the barbecue . I don't feel like I belong with Steven Kotler .

Alan Lazaros 22:28

Steven Kotler , peak performance , the art of impossible . I mean heat flow . I mean it's the research collective of just type A's , basically super achievers , how to do the impossible it's never been done . The Michael Phelps of the world . And I said , kev , I don't feel like I belong here at all . I mean , stephen Kotler and I were like kids in a candy store talking peak performance , and for us that was a really big moment because that was when Kevin and I realized we were trying to be like each other and we were never going to win at that game . I wanted to be like , I was jealous of how likable this dude is . Everyone loves Kev . We'd give the same speech I'm telling you mine was better and everyone would love him and hate me .

Jess 23:09

It totally feels like my life .

Alan Lazaros 23:10

Right and it's like what I added more value . This was more valuable . Speech Doesn't matter , right ? He's a likable guy . He's relatable and likable . I'm not relatable or likable , so I have to just lean into that and be okay with it , because I'm a statistical anomaly . I'm an engineering thinker and I'm very , very rare . The point is , kev was afraid to not be respected and not be admired for being an achiever , and I was afraid to be hated my entire life . So we both had to face our deepest fear . His deepest fear was not being good enough . My deepest fear was basically being ostracized socially because I don't relate well people . When I try to relate , they can tell it's not authentic I can fit in with people and make them feel comfortable .

Jess 23:52

I don't feel authentic they don't notice it , but it's amazing because you're just jealous .

Claude 23:57

You're still , you're likable I mean .

Alan Lazaros 24:01

But how do you know that that likability isn't manufactured by her dimming ? A lot of the things that I've said here are not likable things to say and that takes tremendous social courage . So Kevin's needed competence courage . He needed to do the speech , write the resume , do the cover letter , try the thing I needed to have social courage . Social courage to . For me , vulnerability is actually owning who I am and owning the contrast of who I am . It's very scary and I know that's resonating . Jess , you know what ? I'm not that great and you know what . And he is great . That's the truth . But he needs to own that . He's not type A .

Claude 24:38

Is it really not like you're afraid of not being great ? It's you not believing that you're great ? Because it's really different , because you can be great but not believing it ?

Kevin Palmieri 24:53

I think for me it's both . So when I was young , my dad left and I think there was a part of me that internalized that as well . If I was better , smarter , whatever he would have stayed around Again . I'm a baby , so that's kind of out of my control , but I didn't know that at the time . So that became the record that played in my head is I'm not good enough , I'm not smart enough , I'm never going to be successful . Nobody in my family had a college education . We were broke . There wasn't a lot of hope . It just didn't seem like there was a lot of hope .

Kevin Palmieri 25:25

In high school I was really good at baseball Claude All-star captain of the team but I thought I just got luckier more often than other people . So I had this record of I'm not good enough , I'm not smart enough . I get lucky , I guess when it comes to things . No , my biggest fear is failure . My biggest fear is going and giving a speech and making a mistake or bombing . That's like my deep fear .

Kevin Palmieri 25:50

Now I think I'm getting to the place where I feel fairly yeah , I feel very competent in this Like this is well within my comfort zone , but I still have anxiety around things that I'm doing for the first time . I would guarantee that I did more research of you guys than Alan did , because I like the certainty . I need to know who I'm talking to . I need to know what you do in the world . I need to look at your social medias . That's as much about trying to be a consummate professional as it is . It gives me certainty and confidence in what I'm doing . So my deepest fear is rejection not being good enough , not being smart enough . I still deal with that to this day .

Claude 26:27

Judging subject what do you think of our Instagram ?

Kevin Palmieri 26:34

Literally .

Jess 26:35

Claude leads the Instagram , in case you're wondering .

Kevin Palmieri 26:38

Claude , the first thing I thought is they're really good at marketing . That was the first thing I thought , like you guys are really good at marketing , your page does a really good job of promoting the podcast by indirectly promoting the podcast . So yeah , I was pleasantly surprised . As of today , I've been on 985 other podcasts . You're in the top 5% of social medias I've seen .

Claude 27:05

Oh , we got a ton of time Strong word night Jess , it's together problem , Strong word nice , jess , it's together , it's not just me right . Strong word , both of you .

Jess 27:13

Yeah , we do it .

Alan Lazaros 27:14

One thing

Finding Balance in Work Friendships

Alan Lazaros 27:15

if I can extend an olive branch is Kevin is better at social media than I am , because Kevin understands people and the way they think more than I do . So , jess , the fears that he talked about , fear of failure like , we don't have as much of a fear of failure , we just think , okay , we'll just fail forward , fail forward , fail forward .

Jess 27:32

Keep going and check the numbers Exactly . Okay , this will work .

Alan Lazaros 27:35

We have a fear of success and give me a minute , okay . Whenever we shined , our relationships would suffer , so we've been conditioned to not shine unless someone else is with us . So this is landing , okay .

Jess 27:50

Walk me through that , because that's fascinating to me , because one of the values of us creating this work bestie community is to rely on each other , to raise each other up , which you want to successfully achieve growth , both of you Now not everyone owns a business together , so sometimes it's not going to be as succinct as that , but you would hope of those that do work together or decide to work together , that would be their greatest success in life , and they'd be so Well I think to the yin and yang conversation , to you two's strength , what I've come to understand over years and years of trying to coach and help different types of individuals .

Alan Lazaros 28:26

Some are type A , like you , jess , and what I need to do with you is very different than what I need to do with Kevin . Kevin is not type A . He's not naturally type A . He can do type A behaviors , but he's not naturally an achiever . He doesn't identify . I'm an achiever , jess , you do . You might not say it socially , but you do 100% . The point that I'm making here is we all have a record playing . Kevin's record in his unconscious is I'm not good enough , I'm not smart enough , it's not going to work out for me , I'm not going to be successful . But if you ask him whether or not he can get along with people , I mean no problem , absolutely , he's the best ever with people . Okay , she's smiling right now . Claude knows the same deal , right ? Jess ? You feel like you have to change who you are in order to get along with people , and you might not talk about this publicly , so I apologize if I'm hosting you .

Jess 29:11

No , I do , I definitely do .

Alan Lazaros 29:14

So what a Jess does is she squats a thousand pounds behind the scenes when no one's watching and then she pretends she struggles around other people and it's to create belonging , and when in reality you don't actually struggle with self-doubt that much , but that intimidates people . So you like to talk about how you have self-doubt , but what you don't realize is that you actually love failure and you're trying to fail forward and you love getting better and you're never going to stop . So these are just different types of people and it's all based on a core wound . So the record playing in your mind is it's all going to work out . We got this , we can do it . See , look , we got this , we can do it .

Jess 29:48

Yeah , 100% yes .

Alan Lazaros 29:50

However , when it comes to having successful friendships and successful relationships , there's fear there . There's like I don't know . Is this person going to abandon me ? Are they going to poison people against me ? Are they going to rip me a new one ? Am I ? I can't let them too close because they're going to rip my heart out .

Alan Lazaros 30:06

So vulnerability for Kevin is stepping on stage , feeling incompetent . Vulnerability for us is telling you that we actually don't struggle with self-doubt that much . That is like a no-fly zone . You cannot say that . I mean the amount of courage I'm probably red right now the amount of courage it takes to say that I don't have a ton of self-doubt . Not like me , arrogant hubris , butthead , right . But other type A's are like hell . Yeah , like Gary Vee is not going to be like what a dick , because Gary Vee has undying self-belief as well . But most people think he's a dick and I understand why , and I'm not for or against Gary Vee , that's not my point . My point is is that the type A super achievers of the world don't understand that most people don't have self-belief and they have a different record playing . The record they have playing determines how they see the world .

Jess 30:55

I don't think I'm type A in total . I am in type A with this business and in certain aspects of my work career , but from a personal life standpoint I'm definitely not the type A person .

Alan Lazaros 31:05

That makes perfect sense .

Jess 31:06

Does it A is ?

Alan Lazaros 31:07

mostly career . Yes , right .

Jess 31:09

So do you feel like that means that you could still balance a little bit between , like , I don't think I'm super chameleon , maybe a little at work , but no ?

Claude 31:22

Not everything . I feel like , jess , I think like you're real with me .

Alan Lazaros 31:27

Jess , have you ever actually failed at anything that you did long enough ? I've given up , so I would consider that a failure . Yeah , so you decided to stop something . Have you ever tried something that you really wanted and actually not achieved it ?

Jess 31:39

Yes , I can think of a couple of things , but then I do believe I also just kind of gave up on them , right .

Alan Lazaros 31:44

And again , I know this is very deep stuff , usually type A's . They decide I don't really want to do that anymore , it's not really worth it anymore . They don't actually think they couldn't do it . There's very little Jess believes she can't do unconsciously Right , and this is all in the unconscious .

Alan Lazaros 31:59

None of this is conscious . I don't want to rock you guys' world . The yin and yang . It's a beautiful thing . You guys Claude is naturally more humble , okay , and Jess , you're naturally have a higher self-belief , and that's why Claude is saying that you would have been successful with or without me . But she doesn't necessarily think that same way , and that's okay . The beautiful part about the yin and the yang is that you two are better together because she doesn't have the weaknesses that come with your strengths . Kevin doesn't have the weaknesses that come with my strengths .

Jess 32:28

Like the creativity , like you hit on it , claude , is way more creative than me . I'm more like . These are the numbers we have to hit and how we have to get them .

Alan Lazaros 32:35

Here's some ideas and .

Jess 32:35

I just throw them at her and I'm like which one do you think will work ?

Alan Lazaros 32:38

If you research all successful businesses , they have creatives with super achieving metrics and habits , type A modalities of thinking . It's really beautiful when you do the research on this .

Claude 32:49

Yeah , go ahead , Claude you know , what is funny also is that because we work together , hence work besties that's how we started and from that point there was that yin and the yang . Her strength was my weakness . Could have been like relationship that can crush each other with our strengthness , but on the opposite , we were lifting each other up .

Claude 33:14

and how many times just you help me with the whole analytical things and your strength that I do believe that in some way I did help you on other things as well for sure , absolutely no , so that's what I think that it can go both ways again crush each other , or you have this sparkle where you lift each other and you help each other and you make it stronger you become stronger .

Alan Lazaros 33:41

I think that every Jess needs someone who can unconditionally love her , and every Claude needs someone who is a Jess , who believes in her . Oh my God , and that's what you guys are , and that's beautiful and that's super rare .

Claude 33:56

That is true , super rare . I love that .

Alan Lazaros 34:00

Claude , if you unconditionally love Jess in her greatness , she's going to lean into that and that's what your business needs and Jess . Anytime Claude is struggling , just tell her how much you believe in her . Which she does , and that you guys , if you keep that up , you guys got it .

Jess 34:18

We interviewed you so much as you interviewed us today .

Kevin Palmieri 34:22

This is what happens . When Alan connects with someone he's like ah , that person's like me . This is what happens .

Jess 34:33

This has been very educational for us and I do appreciate it . I will say if you're half as good with your clients as you were with us today my goodness , I get why you guys have been podcasting for over 2 000 episodes and have so many clients . This is this is real important stuff that really helps you get to the next level .

Alan Lazaros 34:46

It's very impressive thank you , and thank you for sitting in the discomfort of that .

Kevin Palmieri 34:50

The experience of somebody else doing their thing . There's lessons in that and , Claude , I don't know if you resonate with that or not , but if so , awesome . I added some value on this episode . Also , just for anybody listening .

Jess 35:02

I was the guy I was the guy who talked about the ice cream truck .

Kevin Palmieri 35:05

That was me , so don't forget that Next level ice cream .

Claude 35:09

Kevin , it's true , totally agree .

Jess 35:13

I'm the Kevin where I'm okay to step back , because why do I want to compete on someone that is so good in speeches One thing that we didn't hit on that it definitely is shining through with you two , and it shines through with us as well is when you find that , yin to your yang , you do need to have the respect and ability to be vulnerable , because that's the best person to give you honest feedback and you'll take it Because , to your point , alan , we're the type of people that people come at us with feedback all the time , all the time .

Alan Lazaros 35:47

I don't care , all the time .

Jess 35:48

We'll believe anything you're saying .

Alan Lazaros 35:51

Well , remember , rocks always get thrown at the tallest tree . Compliments usually go down and rocks go up . It's very important and again , if you seem very confident , people are testing it unconsciously . They need to know if you're actually confident . What they don't know is that we're just people trying to serve , and we've been beaten up our whole life .

Alan Lazaros 36:11

I think if I could extend this olive branch . The paradox that we've figured out is that my fear is being the CEO , because I'm afraid of success . Rocks get thrown at the CEO . Okay , jess is resonating . Here's the paradox . You guys ever hear that quote ? It is not our darkness but our light that most frightens us .

Jess 36:32

Yes , I've heard it before .

Alan Lazaros 36:33

It is not our darkness but our light that most frightens us , Isn't it ? With you , Jess ? It does . Okay , here's the paradox . Hev was afraid to be overlooked . I'm actually afraid to be center stage . Seriously , I know it doesn't seem like it because we've evolved , but I used to try to push him to the front of the stage so that the rocks hit him instead of me , but no one throws rocks at him . It's a paradox , right ? Okay ? So fear of failure , fear of success , whichever one is bigger . You have the opposite problems and you have the opposite strengths . And that's all I'm saying is that Jess is not going to claim CEO . She needs to be given it by you , Claude .

Jess 37:11

And .

Alan Lazaros 37:11

Claude , you've had to learn how Well that's beautiful . That means you're very mature . So Kevin has had to learn how to be a number two , and I've had to learn how to be a number one . My deepest fear is being disliked and villainized . His deepest fear is being not significant and not good enough . So that's all I'm saying is that it's very paradoxical , but that's the paradox , and so we all have to face our deepest fear . We all have to face our deepest fear , and some of us that's failure and not being good enough , and some of us it's being too much . For others , yes , you're more afraid to be too much than you are of not enough , and that's just the truth , and we know that . And again , this is a public medium , so I didn't mean to turn this into a coaching call . I just wanted to extend this for anyone out there watching or listening . Yes , the paradox is facing your deepest fear .

Alan Lazaros 38:01

The problem is , I always say there's two types of people people who are fearful and liars . I'm afraid just not afraid of the same thing as Kev , and we learned that from each other . I never would have known this if it wasn't for Kev and I basically having the humility , courage and vulnerability , to sit in the discomfort of the post-interview with Stephen Kotler going . I don't understand why I was so uncomfortable there Okay , why wasn't I . And I'm uncomfortable at the barbecue . It's like , okay , why wasn't I . So we had these conversations and we've learned so much from each other , and I know you two feel that same way . Again , I think life is very paradoxical and once you identify and face it ironically once Kevin faces his fear of not being good enough , guess who's going to be more than good enough , right ? And once I face my fear of being hated , now I can actually have the courage to share what is true for me , which is what I've had to do with this entire episode . Basically .

Jess 38:49

You've done it beautifully .

Alan Lazaros 38:51

Thank you , Jess .

Jess 38:53

All right , I'm going to ask us the last question . If you remember , at the very beginning I said that you would provide for us a key lesson that you learned about balancing your personal growth and maintaining that supportive friendship . What would that be the coaching you would give to your clients or anybody listening to our podcast ?

Kevin Palmieri 39:12

Times , the balance that you think you want is not actually the balance that you need . Somebody sitting across from you will be able to see that and say hey brother , I know you wanna like hang out and play video games all day . I don't really think that's what you deeply , deeply want , and I do think you might regret that at some point . So maybe we could re-approach and revisit what balance actually means from a more aligned place . Sometimes we want to villainize the people who give us some of the best advice , so just sit

Final Thoughts and Episode Closing

Kevin Palmieri 39:40

with it . The balance is different for everybody , and sometimes people can see parts of you that you can't see yet .

Alan Lazaros 39:52

That would be my advice , what he's referring to there . If I really want to see Kevin succeed , I want him to win . I'm talking deep in my soul and my heart and my mind . I have to tell him the things that I don't even want to tell him . I didn't want to tell him that . That's how I know it's not for me . I genuinely would be better off not telling you . Well , in the short run , In the short run and since you're my business partner , there's got to be a level of accountability there .

Alan Lazaros 40:12

What he's referring to there is just being vulnerable . It's so vulnerable for me to share my truth with Kevin because I don't want him to feel bad about himself , but I do want to see him win . There's no way this could have worked without courage , humility and vulnerability , especially , especially vulnerability and courage , because we've had many tears , Like seriously , we've had really hard conversations , life life altering conversations . I mean , we're not in this as a hobby . This is our full-time job , this is our career and our calling and we we take it very , very , Take it very very seriously .

Claude 40:44

I love to see this relationship .

Jess 40:46

Alan and Kevin , can you guys remind our audience again where they can find you ?

Kevin Palmieri 40:50

If you search Next Level University , you'll find us on all the audio platforms . You'll find us on YouTube . Our website is nextleveluniversecom . And then Alan's Instagram is at A-L-A-Z-A-R-O-S and mine is at Never Quit .

Jess 41:06

Kid .

Kevin Palmieri 41:07

Mine is better than Alan's , for sure .

Jess 41:11

Alan and Kevin . Thank you so much . Thank you Empowered for me personally , Claude and I have a lot to talk about from this and feeling very much like you've supported us and given us some tools and resources just within this short conversation .

Claude 41:25

And , I'm sure , to all the work besties , because at some point all of them listening , they always know which one is the Kevin slash Claude and which one is the Jess slash Alan , right , so why don't you drop , you know , a little message on Instagram and let us know , or even on YouTube , let us know which one is which in your , in your pair ? If you enjoyed this episode as much as we did , please don't forget to like , subscribe and see you next week .

Jess 42:01

Remember whether you're swapping snacks in the break room , rescuing each other from endless meetings or just sending that perfectly timed meme . Having a work bestie is like having your own personal hype squad .

Claude 42:14

So keep lifting each other , laughing through the chaos and , of course , thriving . Until next time , stay positive , stay productive and don't forget to keep supporting each other . Work besties .