Empathy in Action

What if the best leaders are not the ones who had the easiest path — but the ones who know what it feels like to need support?

In this episode of Work Besties Who Podcast, Jess and Claude sit down with Allie Grack, founder of Workhorse Marketing, for a powerful and honest conversation about resilience, empathy, leadership, and building teams that do not burn out.

Allie shares how her early life experiences shaped the way she leads today, why empathy is not a weakness, and how her “messy mind” has become one of her greatest creative strengths. We also talk about what it means to support women in the workplace, create psychological safety, and become the kind of leader, mentor, and ally you wish you had.

This episode is for anyone who has ever felt like they were “too much,” anyone learning to lead with more humanity, and anyone who believes we grow better when we grow together.

In this episode, we talk about:

•  How resilience can shape leadership 
•  Why empathy belongs in the workplace 
•  How to support ambition without creating burnout 
•  The power of a “messy mind” 
•  Why different working styles make stronger teams 
•  What women really need to grow 
•  The importance of work besties, truth-tellers, and support systems 

Connect with Allie Grack:

Workhorse Marketing: https://teamworkhorse.com/
LinkedIn: https://www.linkedin.com/in/allie-gilbert-teamworkhkorse

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Work Besties! Theme Song Written by Ralph Lentini @therallyband

Transcript

Welcome And Ali’s Resilience Story

Jess K 0:00

What if the best leaders are not the ones who had the easiest path?

Claude F 0:04

Maybe they are the ones who know what it feels like to need support. Hi, I'm Claude. And I'm Jess. We are corporate employees by day, entrepreneurs by night, and work besties for life.

Jess K 0:16

Join us as we explore how work besties lift each other up, laugh through the chaos, and thrive together in every industry. Work besties! Today we are joined by Ali Greck, a nationally recognized marketing executive, agency founder, and leader who built her career on resilience, truth, and grit.

Claude F 0:37

Ali's story is powerful. It is not bullish, it is real.

Jess K 0:42

After a difficult early life moving through adoption, foster care, instability, and becoming a teen mom, Ali built a very different story for herself. And she kept going. Today, she's the founder of Workhorse Marketing, an agency built on transparency, strategy, honesty, and human connection. Allie's also passionate about creating better workplaces for women. Her leadership team is all women, and she is deeply committed to supporting, mentoring, and opening doors for others.

Childhood Instability Into Calm Leadership

Claude F 1:11

Today we are talking about chip purpose, messy mind, and how women can help each other wise. Allie, welcome to Work Best ies Who Podcast.

Jess K 1:21

When you look back at your path, how did your early experiences shape the way that you lead today?

Allie Grack 1:30

Great. I mean, it's a good question. Sometimes we forget to look in the rearview mirror a little bit and really dissect that. And honestly, that's the work I've been doing since I turned 50. It was that moment where you have to kind of just stop and go, what made me this way? Why am I like this? In the truest sense, you know? And prior to that, I had been in survival mode, right? Next problem to solve, next solution, next thing. There's just a sense of peace around getting to a certain age where you realize this really isn't that difficult. Like just let's break it down. Life doesn't have to be this complex. Let's figure out what it is. But um, I think a couple things came out of a really tumultuous childhood. I moved um 11 times uh between third grade and junior year into all sorts of different situations. I was in foster care with a great family. I was in foster care with terrible families. I moved to a group home that was um organized and coordinated by the Catholic charities. And the primary caregiver was a Chinese woman who um maybe didn't speak a lot of English. And so it's been a really interesting journey. My mom used to say that I'm not an episode of Oprah, I'm a season. That ages me a little because that is uh when Oprah was still on regular daytime TV. But um, I think what really helped with having that kind of um instability is the ability to very quickly adjust to whatever is going on around you. Very easy for me to go, oh, we're doing this now and switch lanes. And that really was so beneficial for me coming through um my career in marketing when it was really heavily male dominated, where women maybe weren't supporting each other the way that now we're seeing so much more of, which I just I absolutely love. But it wasn't always like that, not in the 90s. Um, and that was definitely beneficial. Also, the wilder things get, uh, the calmer I get. So crisis management probably would have been a good career choice for me. When the Red Cross gets called in, I should have been on that uh, that plan. But um, I just get this like weird sense of calm, like immediate solution-based vision for what needs to happen to move, move that needle. And that's a survival mode thing. It's also an ADHD thing where we can sit from up above and go, I've already played the whole game and you're still wondering which game to play. It's very powerful to have that sense of what could you know go worse than it's already gone. We're fine. Everything will be fine.

Claude F 4:10

And how does this all those great, you know, things that you're you have, how did it help you lead as well?

Allie Grack 4:19

I think it it took a lot of reeling that into it in a sense. Like, I don't think 30-year-old Allie would have been as good a leader. And I was in those roles. And I know that I did the best I could at the time. But the perspective now of, and we say this all the time, like, we're not saving lives. It's marketing. And and thank goodness, like I don't want to ever be in a position where someone's life depends on me. Of course, they depend on us from a financial aspect and clients depend on us for, you know, the best, the best result. But, you know, like let's not take ourselves too seriously. Well, it took me until I was 50 to be able to feel safe enough in my career, in my decisions, in my home life to push that part of it forward. Like, let's let's be serious, you know. And I always say, like, the, you know, the Romans that built the Coliseum, like, no one knows who they are. They don't remember that they didn't have bread on a Tuesday, right? Like all these little minor things take it in stride. And so that perspective really allowed me to reset what's important. You know, if somebody's having a mental health day, why does, you know, the font size on a on a poster matter right then? Like go and have some sense of prioritization in the people that are doing the work and putting in the time and caring passionately for what we do, that has to be reciprocated. And so having that sense of um genuine, it can't be faked, it can't be written in a in a corporate memo. Um, I genuinely want what is best for the people around me. And that's really where workhorse came too, from a client standpoint. I had been in marketing for, you know, since the beginning of my career. And the way that agencies would treat clients as just a wallet. Oh, you're worth exactly as much as you're willing to put out, or your strategy isn't important to me because I know I can sell you radio, right? And so really getting into it with the idea of like, no, I want to use the skills I have to benefit a nonprofit that needs that money for a mission, or a small business who wants to pay for college for their daughter, but if you overspend on their budget, maybe that's not a goal they're gonna reach. And so, really taking a step back and going, how can I put what I do into the world in a good way?

Redefining Success With Empathy

Jess K 6:47

I'd love to double-click into now that you're 50, you're reflecting back and you're realizing the importance of empathy and leading with that. What would you say to your younger self now to have shifted that earlier?

Allie Grack 7:02

Um, oh my gosh, like slow down. That's what I would tell her. And and you're not competing in this life with anybody else. This is your journey. So what you do with it is completely up to you. Stop looking at the woman who's you know on the top floor with a corner office wearing Prada. Stop looking at the guy who got the promotion that you deserved but didn't. It's irrelevant, right? It's not always fair. Life is never gonna be fair, but it's positioning you for where you need to be, right? So all the bad bosses, all of the things that were, you know, going on in the in the culture at the time, like you have to really be able to focus in on what at the end of your life is gonna really matter. And none of those meetings, those high-powered lunches, the impressing people that you know you think are gonna be able to move the needle for you. None of that matters now. And I wish I could go back and just stay truer to who I was and play less of the game, right? It just, it just feels icky now looking back at the 20s, you know, in your 20s where you're just trying to climb the ladder. We were workaholics. I I worked through many days where I should have been in bed, cuddled up and taking uh antibiotics, but you don't do that. No, especially as a woman, you know, you're gonna slip down the ladder every day that you're not there positioning yourself. And so, like, uh, I love marketing. I've always loved marketing, but the game that it used to be, that was brutal.

Teaching Empathy Through Culture

Jess K 8:38

So I think in one aspect, things have evolved to some extent. So today that some of those same practices or expectations are not as rigorously upheld, not consistently. I'm sure there are some industries where there's some element of it, but it has gotten somewhat better. But there is still a little bit of it, right? So I think the more we encourage people at that 20s and 30s age to instill it.

Claude F 9:08

You you said several times also, like leading with empathy and also being true to ourselves.

Jess K 9:14

Yes.

Claude F 9:15

But for me, empathy cannot be taught. You have this emotional intelligence or you don't. So how do you teach that to someone?

Allie Grack 9:25

I think you're right. I really don't know. I know. Um, mine has developed through doing the work, therapy, therapy, more therapy, and starting to align your, you know, your view of the world with what makes more sense or that for what is actually gonna propel success. And what what does that even look like? What does success look like? Um in a lot of people's eyes. We've maintained our niche market for a marketing agency. I'm not trying to get 600 new clients a week, right? I want to work with clients that align with our team's vision. Maybe it can be, maybe not taught, but I I think you can really change. I went from the you need to be here from nine to five, you need to be clicking your time card to that isn't the priority. And people's mental health, people's, you know, value is more important than that. Um it I I don't I think everyone has the ability in a sense. It's what you choose to do with it.

Jess K 10:29

Yeah, I think it's in my mind, it's kind of similar to leadership. Nobody's necessarily bored with it. Don't you need to take the step back to learn skill sets for it? Because empathy, in a way, is understanding other people's perspective. It doesn't mean you have to feel their way, it doesn't mean you have to agree with their way. It's just taking the step back to allow them to be who they are versus you.

Claude F 10:53

But maybe also is by being a leader with empathy, especially with the younger generation, is doing really the difference. And for them, then you know, you you you teach by example, and they can say, okay, it worked with me that really I loved how my manager, whatever, led with empathy. This is something I'm going to do. And maybe adjust a little bit to their own, right?

Allie Grack 11:23

But yeah, oh, definitely. And I mean, I think I can pinpoint um certain people who I was inspired by from a leadership perspective. I also think going into a scenario, I acted on this from a staffing position. Who do I need on my team? Well, I knew what I knew really well: strategy, marketing, overall big picture vision. But I don't want to do digital marketing. I don't want to run in the backside of Google and figure that out. So, like, I know that's not where my specialty is. So I hired someone who was very, very good at this. And, you know, when I start after, you know, a few years of like, is this even gonna work? Like, this was kind of a weird concept for a marketing agency, like, work for your client. Like, I know that sounds like intuitive, but it was not intuitive in the space. After a few years, I was like, there are things I'd like to fix and do better. I mean, we're working with a consultant right now on um psychological safety on a team and how to increase each other's sense of like, it's okay to say, hey, Allie maybe didn't know this was wrong, or come to someone and go, hey, we could have done this better or differently. If you don't have that psychological safety to do that, then it's gonna get missed and it's gonna, you know, build and grow. And all of a sudden they're gonna be like, oh, we can't tell Allie anything because, you know, she's big and security. So working with that as a team and even just processes, having a project manager that's burnt out isn't helping anybody. How do we relieve that, you know, that stress and all become a part of project management or business development or client retention? And so making everybody have a sense of ownership in something that isn't necessarily their um their thing. I mean, our our um CFO sits in on every single internal meeting. She does not need to know 87% of what we're talking about, but she now has a sense of understanding and ownership. They're not long meetings, you know, we have one, you know, once a day except on Fridays. But then it also connects her to the team. So when somebody's talking about, you know, the crazy promotion we're doing in uh, you know, in North Carolina, she can have that conversation and feel a part of it and connect to that. So it's those little tweaks of, you know, not siloing the team. And what if my, you know, CFO decides that she wants to do video pro video production or maybe work on copywriting on the side? Allowing those open lanes allows women to develop something that they may not have ever even considered. No.

Supporting Women Without Burnout

Jess K 14:00

So you we commented in the very beginning that you do lead a team of women. What have you learned about leading women in a way that supports their ambition without creating that burnout?

Allie Grack 14:13

Oh, that's a good question. It's it's them seeing the effort that I am making to give them support in those spaces. If you have a therapy appointment at two in the afternoon, block it off. I expect you to prioritize that over whatever else is going on. And things like will take, you know, extra days off on the front ends, backs of holidays because those are stressful times with family, you know, the day before Thanksgiving, the day after Thanksgiving. Nobody's working. And if you've been around marketing between Christmas and New Year's, you could just shoot up to one through every office and nobody's there. So we try is pretty like, you know, fun and flexible. But I I think really just setting the example of the imperfections, right? I don't put myself up on some pedestal and and pretend like I have all the answers. I go to them with questions about how we could do things better or bringing consultants in and saying, look, she's gonna, she's gonna center us. But yeah, I mean it's a challenging thing because you're running in an emotional space and that's okay. It's not a dangerous thing. Like everybody talks about emotions, like it's scary. We just don't hold them in and then, you know, do crazy things, you know. We get our emotions out and express that. But get doing it in a healthy and productive way is really, you know, important. And they need to know that it's okay. I mean, I have my therapy appointments visible on my um calendar, you know.

Jess K 15:39

So then they're like at least like, oh, you're leading by there's no negative to it.

Allie Grack 15:46

Yeah. Because I'm still learning every day as a new lesson.

The Messy Mind As Strength

Jess K 15:50

You openly admitted that you have ADHD. Um, and I heard you talk a little bit about the messy mind. What does that phrase mean to you?

Allie Grack 15:59

You it's funny because honestly, it was such a hard, a hard go at first. One of my things that I really, really, really have to work on is slow talkers. Okay. So if you're having a conversation with me, I've already finished the conversation and you're halfway through the sentence, and I want to say it so badly. I want to finish your sentence for you so bad. So that's something I've had to really focus on. But I think it's it gives me creativity. I never know what's going to pop into my head. Some of the campaigns that we've come up with, I'm just so proud of because I think if you were in a really linear mind, it wouldn't even occur to you to do that, you know? And and so, but it's been a burden and a blessing. You know, you you say it's you actually said something earlier that really inspired me with the leadership thing, right? Like leadership is the girl who stands up in the group project and just takes over. Well, I was bossy, right? So is that a good thing, or was that leadership as a kid? Is being the most vocal one in the room annoying to your teacher, or is it something we should be inspiring in young girls to be willing to stand up and give their opinion vocally? And I fought with that for years. Like people did not want to have an eight, 10, 12-year-old explain why they were wrong and you know, why your perspective is valid. So I think some of it is just learning how to use it in a productive way.

Jess K 17:36

Agreed. So I wanted to just focus a little bit more on the power of the messy mind. You hit on two things that definitely feel very authentic to me, where slow-talking people, you have to remind yourself not to speed up the conversation and be done with it. I I do that myself. Um, and you also commented about how your brain is kind of constantly going. What would you say to someone who has been told that is almost too much, that they're too scattered or too intense because of it?

Allie Grack 18:09

It's it's hard. I really mean too much, right? I learned early on to use my voice because I didn't have a lot of other direction, right? I wasn't being parented. I so it became a survival skill, but it was not pretty. You know, I didn't make a lot of adult friends in my childhood because I was I was fighting, I was out there in the battle. So I think when I talk to other people who are like, oh God, you know, my mind is always racing. I'm like, put it on a track. Like, get that thing sorted out. Don't just don't let it control you. You know, use it to your benefit. And that's really where the creativity comes in. You know, I did a stream of consciousness one night when I was laying in bed. And the the stuff that goes through my head in the middle of the night is just wacky. If you had to list all the businesses that I have started in my head, um, I one day was sitting on the porch and saw a milkweed like fluff go by and I felt it. And I was like, this is so soft. Why don't people use this? Like we should, you know, buy more milkweed and sleep.

Jess K 19:14

Talk to us about this. You purposely did hire different styles of people. So they must have different working styles. So how do you do that without losing kind of the folks or focus or structure of what you're still trying to accomplish?

Allie Grack 19:29

Right. The key, um, you know, is being open and and not feeling like everyone has to be a mirror to you. I don't want to look in the mirror all day. I'm a lot. And so having multiples of this would be too much for anybody. I'm actually so lucky. We were very good friends for years. She is a CFO. And at one point, I really need a financial person. And she, I did not think she would take me up on it. I was like, oh, come work for me. And she was like, okay, done. But you know, our personalities are so complementary. So when I come to her and go, okay, hear me out. I and I always start sentences with her like this, like, okay, hear me out. We buy a plane. And she's like, no. No. And I just know, like, if she's not like at least asking a follow-up question, she's already thought through my crazy ideas, right? So that complete opposite is so powerful if you allow it. Our digital director, she goes and works on the back side of the moon on Google. I could not, I could not. I would lose my mind. It's all tech, it's all back end, it's all digital. And yet she brings so much to the team because of that analytical brain that we need, because not everybody can just sit around and come up with crazy ideas. We have to be able to execute them in the exact way that is gonna provide the most benefit to the team. So it's, you know, I think it's really important that you step out of your body when you're talking to people and hiring. Because sometimes, like, if we connect too much on an interview, I'm gonna be like, ooh, but I'm hiring you to be an accountant. I don't know if this is a great place. We're never gonna get anything done. Yeah, that's fair.

Women Helping Women Build Legacy

Jess K 21:14

You have to have rapport but not be uh the same. You don't want a mirror. Ali, you have been in the marketing space for quite some time and you commented how um when you started, you were in a very male-dominated uh sector. What did that teach you about the importance of supporting women?

Allie Grack 21:34

It's really funny because it took me a long time to get on board that idea. Um other women were worse at to a certain point in the workspace back then because we were all fighting for the same one spot that we were going to be owned in. And you were better off spending your time smoking cigars and drinking. Bourbon, than you were helping other women in their career because it wasn't going to do you any good and you'd be a troublemaker and all of those things. Like it sounds so antiquated, but we're talking about pre-cell phone, pre-computer. This was a different world. And we didn't have a lot of this emotional intelligence stuff. I mean, we were raised by boomers. Put your emotions away, get to work, and and you know, do what you need to do. And I honestly was raised by much older boomers. My dad was 50 when I was born and they adopted me. He was retired by the time I was in middle of high school. So that was it. Work ethic, work, work, work. Um I wish I could go back and find a path to start being supportive to women earlier. And I wish I could find a path where there had been more women who were encouraging me down this path. Um it's, it's, it was unfortunate. And so I think I want to do it more now as like a maya copa. Like I am so sorry that the you know, younger Allie wasn't more um supportive. Now, by the time I was, you know, in my mid-30s, things had started to change and develop, and we were doing that. And uh I'm I'm grateful for that. And I have had some good women along the way in leadership roles, but they were few and far between, very few and far between in my career.

Claude F 23:20

So you're saying you you said earlier that uh you know you're trying now to do what at 30 you didn't have. So what kind of support do you think women really need to for them to be able to grow?

Allie Grack 23:37

I think it's a sense of willingness for someone to a believe in them, that you can do this job, that you are the right person for this job. I think honesty, maybe when it's not the right role or position, we have to be able to say, I love and respect you enough to tell you this isn't the right space for you. Um and not making people feel bad about having human feelings, right? Like giving them a sense of like it's okay to have a mental break once in a while. Like we all need that. They all know that they can take a mental health day. They all know they can um that they're safe, that telling me that they're having a rough time with a family member is a safe thing to do. I could have never, you know, given that grace. So I think it's really just about if we're gonna look back on our legacy, you know, at the end of this journey, right? Like nobody's gonna remember in 50 years what campaigns we did on a Tuesday. But if you can have that legacy mean that like someone took a path they weren't gonna take and accelerated in it, or had been doing a job for a really long time and realized they hated it and didn't feel like they had a way out. Like if you can look back and go, I opened that pathway for somebody, like that's really all it's about. Yeah. You know, I mean, doing something positive for the next generation. It's like when you plant a tree, you're giving shade to people you'll never meet. Or when people build cathedrals. I always think about that when I'm in Europe. I'm a huge traveler. People who built these cathedrals never saw them finished. Some of them took hundreds of years. I mean, look at the one in in Barcelona that was just completed after what, 246 years. Doing something now that will have no benefit to you in the in your lifetime, that's cool.

Jess K 25:28

One of the things that um is so imperative and helpful in the work environment is having a rapport with people. So we're curious, do you have a work bestie?

Allie Grack 25:40

I mean, I kind of put my bestie in work with me. When when we um when my friend Kim, she's my CFO, like I said, we had worked together prior. We have traveled internationally every year, basically, since 2014 together. We have spent months abroad. I call her my wifey. So a shout out to my my work wifey. Um, her and my husband actually were born on the same day. And um it's universally the coolest thing that has ever happened to me. I trust her with my life. She knows my funeral plans, my husband doesn't. She knows where my bank accounts are, my husband doesn't. Bless him. He's the cutest. Um let's we'll just let her take care of those things. Like I do, I absolutely do. And I'm I'm so grateful for it. And even if she quit, you know, she'd still be she would be still for sure.

Jess K 26:34

At least you'd be traveling. Yeah.

Claude F 26:37

And that's what I have to say is like we are all, I mean, you're a bit younger, but all more or less the Gen X generation, like starting like close to 50 or past 50. And I think that it's really now that we think like friendship, woman friendship is more and more important. That's when you really realize how important it is for the support. It's not your husband, it's not your partner, whatever, it's really your girlfriend and how important it is to cherish them.

Start This Week And Connect

Allie Grack 27:12

Yeah, I I would be lost. And you know, I used to think you had to have a big group. And so I would like hoard, you know, people and like have these big groups. I need like six, you know, like you have to have like a little variety pack. Um, but I am for years, but I want the golden girl plan, you know, I want like to go move in a house with my best, like, God forbid. And my honestly, my husband would do it too. He loves all my girlfriends.

Jess K 27:39

We do have one last question for you. If someone listening wants to become a more empathetic leader, mentor, or ally, where should they start this week?

Allie Grack 27:52

Step down. Like take everything that you know or think defines you and just set it down for a minute and then look at it objectively. Is what you are at this moment how you want to be defined and described. You know, if someone was giving your eulogy, were the are those the descriptors? And I'm honestly fine with mine. Like I, you don't have to like me, you don't have to find me funny, but those things still are very important to me. That I've made a life out of something that couldn't have been easy. But I sometimes have to still step down and go, are we there yet? Right? Are we doing the work? Are we living up to the taglines that we're preaching? If we write the book, are we living it? Well, the it's very difficult. So I think taking the lens and being honest, you have to be honest. I own my imperfections now. Before it was really hard to say that this is my responsibility. And now I'm like, yeah, I've I've made mistakes. Like anybody who can say they have it all figured out terrifies me a little bit. Yeah. No. Don't trust them though. No, you're not being honest. Like, I and you actually said it to let them. I'm like, yeah, sure.

Jess K 29:13

Sure, buddy. Um, Ali, how can people find you if they want to link more?

Allie Grack 29:20

I love a LinkedIn moment. Um, I'm the only Allie Grok in the world. So it's like really easy to find me on LinkedIn. Um, but our our main webpage for the business is teamworkhorse.com. There's a great little pop-up that comes up and says, hey, you want to hang out and chat? Like I would love to connect. Um, I'm actually kind of on a mission to find other women who went through the system as a child who have found their way through it. I think there's a story there that has not ever been told. Definitely. Um, about how many we lost to that system. It was a difficult journey. So I would love to talk to other women about that.

Jess K 29:58

Oh, I love that. That's a great call to attention. We will definitely keep in here and and uh ensure people think about that. Allie, thank you. This was so fun. I think I laughed more than anything. This was so good. No, life's too short tonight. I think that's key too. Is you've gotta have a great thing. We we just want to say thank you again. Thank you. And to all the work veterans out there, keep supporting each other. Thanks. When you look back at your path, how did your early experiences shape the way that you lead today? When you look back at your path, how did your early experiences shape the way that you lead today? When you look back at your path, how did your early experiences shape the way that you lead today? When you look back at your path, how did your early experiences shape the way that you lead today? When you look back at your path, how did your early experiences shape the way that you lead today? Remember, whether you're swapping snacks in the break room, rescuing each other from endless meetings, or just sending that perfectly timed meme. Having a work bestie is like having your own personal hype squad.

Claude F 31:12

So keep lifting each other up, laughing through the chaos, and of course, thriving. Until next time, stay positive, stay productive, and don't forget to keep supporting each other.

Both 31:26

Work besties!