Episode #21 - A Volleyballers Life with Graham Vigrass

In this episode we discuss the trials of being a new coach, the power of the mind and how to promote curiosity, as well as why Canada is behind other nations in terms of skill development. We speak about the dichotomy of how to deal with what matters and believing that it doesn't matter, and the side businesses within recovery. We discuss the amazing opportunity of having a family overseas as well as the benefit of immersing yourself in other cultures.

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Transcript

0:00

Hello, everyone, and welcome back to the Pit to Pro podcast. In this episode, we're joined by Graham Viagras. Graham is a two time Olympian, a long time professional player, and has recently retired to become the head coach of the University of Calgary. Expect to learn about the power of the mind and the importance of curiosity, why Canada is behind other countries in terms of skill, how to decide what actually matters, and how to be the kind of teammate that everyone wants to play with. Before we get started, I'd like to introduce our newest partner on the Pit to Pro podcast. I'm sure I'm not the only one who wants to hit harder and score more points. That's why we've decided to partner up with the athlete wellness Academy to deliver you guys the best in arm swing training With their new Arm Swing Academy, you'll receive personalized video analysis and feedback, along with individualized workouts and on court drills. for joining us. Continuous technical support and a dedication to this process will have you hitting harder and playing pain free. AWA has worked extensively with the three of us at the Pit to Pro podcast, as well as the top university programs across the country. If that sounds like something you want to be a part of, sign up for the Arm Swing Academy using the link in our show notes or Instagram bio, and get 10 off every month of your subscription. The Arm Swing Academy offers a 7 day free trial, which you can cancel at any time, and if you're not seeing progress after one month of joining the Academy, you will be refunded. It's completely risk free, so click the link in our show notes or Instagram bio and start your 7 day free trial today. But now, ladies and gentlemen, please welcome Graham Viagras. Hello and welcome to the Pit the Pro podcast. Jesse, Matthias, and Aaron Elson. This podcast is meant to guide young athletes on their journey to high performance. Join us as we share our first hand experiences in an effort to help you reach your own valuable goals.

Jesse 1:42

your name has come up probably three or four times on our podcast with different guests and they often talk about like she knows good things and they talked about your like your instinct for the game, especially on the block defense side and your understanding of offenses. How do you put your instinct into words? Like how, as a coach now, how are you trying to facilitate? Your action or your thoughts to their actions.

Graham 2:19

Yeah, that's a good question It's not easy. I think I think the biggest thing to do is to promote Thinking like to actually just ask questions to you guys what they're doing And I've I've gone through different like I've been coaching for what three months or something But I've gone through kind of different stages and realized that Certain things along the way, because at first I was telling them like everything, every, every action I saw a mistake or a decision that I thought was different, not wrong, but just, you know, it could have done something else. I was like, Barry, Hey, like, did you think about this or do this? Blah, blah, blah, blah. But now it's a much more in the, the idea to make them think about it, to create that autonomy. Cause it's, you know, I could give you guys answers about where to block or what to do or what options to take and then without me saying it, like, it just won't happen, but promoting guys to think about the game and like, that's all aspects of it, um, will then hopefully increase their curiosity. And then, like, it's theirs, like, it's, it's, it's so much more powerful, powerful for them to find answers to questions they have then for me to just give them the answer. How do you weigh more attention? I think in that case too. Yeah, for sure. How do you promote, how do you promote that curiosity? Um, yeah, I don't know, like, there's, we watched some video last week, I showed them some clips of, of Blair Band's team in Korea. We talked, he sent me like a bunch of clips of practice and things like that. Um, so just like exposing the guys to a different level and different like type of volleyball. Cause Canadians, like, they know volleyball is bump, set, spike, bump, set, spike. They don't know what it is. You know direct cover to an outside who then has an option to spike or set the middle Um, there's like a lot of creativity that people don't know about So I think first you got to expose them to it and then you have to show them that it works So like okay, all this creative stuff is fun and cool But if it doesn't work to like increase your efficiency, then it's no one's going to want to do it It's got to be both you got to you got to show that it works and it's fun. Like I At least for me as an athlete, like, when I was doing new things, it was always fun, like, to try to learn them. If that was like a hybrid or, or back sitting or whatever, something new, it's just like, refreshes your, your love for the game.

Mathias 5:01

Yeah, that's a good point and probably increases skill in other areas that you're not even working on just again Going back to like the touch quality every touch probably helps your other skills I think just reading the ball and contacts that kind of stuff and I like what you said too About like with your blockers you could tell them every time What to do with their mistakes, all that. And I felt that as a setter at Trinity, because we're pretty not strict, but we have a, we have a system that everyone goes through, everyone learns and that's kind of how it's done. And at the beginning I wasn't even thinking what, like I wasn't using my own brain. I was trying to think what Ben would want me to do, not anything. What are the rules? Yeah, exactly. Exactly. Yeah. And so it was just like this weird pressure. I was like once removed from the decision, but then once I just took ownership, did what I wanted to do, then you can discuss with your coach after about your decisions, not whatever that weird dynamic. Yeah.

Graham 6:08

Some things like that. We play some small, like mini games where there's, there are rules, but then I want to see Guys be creative and like try to win the drill That's kind of a big one for me to get guys to start thinking rather than just you know Passing the ball here. Is there another way to win this drill? To be creative in tactics or or what you're using what kind of skill you're using to

Jesse 6:36

that's cool Have you always been as a player? Have you always been that? cognitively focused

Graham 6:45

Yeah, I think so I think I mean, I think at times I was like too focused on certain things or like couldn't let it go. So after practice or after games, I would think about certain actions. And now like I have a terrible short term memory of, of matches and actions, which is awesome. I think that's where the, where like, that's where you want to be, where you're like super analytical about what's happening in the moment. And then when it's done, it's just like, it's fully over having kids definitely helps that.

Mathias 7:18

We've heard that a couple of times.

Graham 7:19

Yeah. Yeah. I told the guys on my team, like Don't go and have kids, but it just does put things in perspective that, uh, there's more out there to life than just volleyball.

Oog 7:36

I was just curious, but like before three months ago, were you watching much you sports volleyball? Like none, like, how does that, like, how has that change come in where it's like, you were majority watching only pro and now it's like, Hey, now I have to watch these sports

Graham 7:51

Like, I mean, the athleticism is, is similar, but like the variance in skill. Um, so yeah, that's, I mean, skill in general is, is kind of a longterm thing, but it's, it's like so important, like lots of our, lots of our training is trying to just create more skill in all positions, which Canadians seem to lack, especially others like certain positions. Um, you can get by in your sport, you can get by in Canada with being super athletic and not skilled in certain positions. But. Doesn't really fly at the next level, like at the highest level. So, um, yeah, it's interesting trying to, trying to improve that and having guys do stuff like they've never done. That's, that's a big thing for us.

Jesse 8:41

Right.

Graham 8:42

So like pushing guys out of their comfort zone to try to jump set or try to like backset or, you know, set, set, like with their forearms with speed or. You know, there's tons of stuff that is never, never have done. So like, they're terrible at it. Um, and I think, I think getting better at things, like even if you won't do it in a game, just makes you better at that skill, like gets you more coordinated, has a better touch on the ball, things like that.

Oog 9:10

Yeah.

Graham 9:11

Rather than just like repping out high balls for middles that are only ever set high balls. Like. Setting a thousand eyeballs for me is not as valuable as setting half as many and then doing half as many like Fun stuff where they'll never actually do it in a game, but just it creates better feel Yeah,

Oog 9:31

what seems like all the players in Canada at least that Really accelerated is like they've been playing since they were a kid and just like messing around with the ball and not playing volleyball But just like touching it And learning how to control it and that kind of stuff. And so like, you've kind of got to play catch up sometimes, I guess, with some guys who didn't have that. And I remember, I remember Rod Walsh always saying that, like, whatever we were doing on court was great. Like the, the building of the skill came from when we were playing. Basement pepper or like a weird rendition of like, let's hit the ball over this mattress and see if we can control it out of the, you know, like, I think those games are important as, as. That's

Graham 10:18

how Canadians get those skill, like that skill work, which is not the right way in my opinion, but like that's the way that you got better at doing certain skills. Cause you guys were playing in the backyard or in the basement. It doesn't have to be that way. Like it can be. There's stuff you can do on court to increase that skill. I don't know if you guys have seen👀like the French French🇫🇷league for like kids👶🏼They've got like a two on two league. Yeah. Um, and they're like pancaking🥞and throwing and push tipping and they're like skilled and I don't know how old they are, like 12 year old kids👶🏼

Oog 10:56

It's like, Well, I've never heard this, but someone said, they let them play real volleyball earlier⏰even if it is two on two, they're like competing and doing all the skills and stuff. Whereas here it's like, they're not ready🙅🏼‍♂️for that yet. They're not ready🙅🏼‍♂️for push tips and they're not ready🙅🏼‍♂️for pancaking🥞They're not ready🙅🏼‍♂️for overhand serving, but they just like let them go right out of the gates🏐and then they get good at it. And then you're

Graham 11:21

22 and you can't do some basic skills🤦🏼‍♂️

Jesse 11:24

Yeah.

Graham 11:26

Yeah. That's for sure. for having us here. pro, there's just like a much wider range. So you've got guys that are. You know, 16, 17 on the team. And then you've got 40 year olds. That was the case in Spain. Like we had a 16 year old and a thing, 41 year old guy. Um, but no, it's not, it's not strange. Coming back to this level, it's, it's goes back to the same thing. Like there's a lot of variation in, in, in actions. So it's, you know, at that high level in pro it's just, everyone is a bit more skilled, not more physical, but just. Better touch on the ball better kind of vision and kind of court sense is kind of huge like just knowing what's gonna happen So guys in pro are simple like that's I always talk to our guys about being simple with like every action So you'll watch guys in pro that go like directly to the ball or they only move their arms to the ball But here there's a lot of like extra stuff going on. So and that's like eSport in general. There's a lot of, a lot of wasted movement.

Jesse 12:34

Is, is a lot of what you're teaching, that's not to the middles? Based on what you have observed or like, how are you teaching, how are you going about teaching setting or, or defense, for example?

Graham 12:49

Yeah,

Jesse 12:49

lots

Graham 12:49

of it. I mean, I was a really good defender, so that, that kind of comes easy. Um, lots of it comes from like hearing what coaches have said to those positions over the years. So like, I was always trying to listen in to, to the coaches I had when they were talking to other positions. Um, not because I thought I was going to be a coach someday, but because But just, I think it's just helpful to hear what coaches have to say to other positions, even if you're a middle or different position, so yeah, I was always kind of just floating around when I heard coaches talking to other positions, but yeah, a lot of it is about observing and now trying to, to watch skills and like break it down a little bit more or a lot more. Like I've never watched certain things with some skills and that's like half my job is to try to. Break it down and understand how the best guys in the world do it. But then also the best way to teach it or, or a way to teach it. I don't think there is a best way to teach anything, but it, uh, yeah, it definitely takes time to understand all the different skills we wrote down on the board yesterday in the whiteboard, just like a pyramid about what makes a good spin server and it's like whiteboard just kept getting bigger and bigger. It's a complex thing. It's not an easy thing to teach, that's for sure.

Jesse 14:14

Well, I want to, I want to ask about like recruiting because you've never done that ever. How are you finding that or how, what kind of like, not to give us your strategies, but like, what's your thought process on that?

Graham 14:33

Um, yeah, recruiting is tough. Like it's a huge part of the job. And it's funny, like I went to nationals right when I got home from Spain and I had no idea what I was doing. I was just watching everybody in the gym. Oh, this guy's good. Like write down his number and his team. And then like had a, had a list of guys I liked. And then I talked to other coaches, like Adam's a big one. I was like, Hey, have you seen this guy? He's like, yeah, he's signed. He's going to. I was like, okay, how about this one? Yeah. He's signed. He's going to the school. It's like, okay, I'm watching the wrong age here. But then back down to like 17 years, 16 years, it, it, uh, it's pretty shocking how early these guys are being talked to from coaches, um, Like the top kids are having conversations in grade 10 and 11, which was never the case when I was, when I was coming through, but yeah, trying to understand the level and who the guys are at a young age. But then that's also hard. Like, how do you, how do you, how do you tell a kid that 16 is going to be good when he's 18, 19? I don't know about you guys, but I changed a ton. In the high school from grade 10 to 12. Um, and something, some guys change poorly, like if they grow or they, they become an athletic or however that works, but it, uh, recruiting is super important and it is a big work in progress. That's for sure. And a big, a big, a big part of it, which I wasn't thinking at the start was like seeing if the guys are the right fit for our team as well, or like the culture that we're trying to change rather than just, you know, this guy's good at volleyball, so let's bring him on a trip. Then it's like, okay, does this guy, does this guy have the right attitude? And you know, does this guy work with what we're trying to build? So big part of the trips that we've had with guys is trying to, trying to understand. You know, it's, it is for them and to see if they like us and what we're doing, but also the other way around.

Mathias 16:37

What are your favorite kind of players to coach? Um,

Graham 16:42

ask me that in a couple of years.

Mathias 16:46

What are your favorite kind of players to play with?

Graham 16:49

Um, yeah, like super high energy guys. I think that were, that were like really resilient. I think that was kind of, those were the guys that I, I, I always, Gained a lot of trust from, or like I had a lot of trust in and not just high energy, but just like aggressive. Um, but then if stuff was going poorly, like it didn't look like it, the way they acted and, and the way they played the game.

Mathias 17:21

from every guy that I know that has played with you, they're amazed at your, your leadership and that resilience, every, every guy that I've talked to, every guy I've talked to. There you go, which is which is like one person. Yeah, I've talked to three guys. Yeah They all loved you, but I'm curious I think most leaders are likely natural leaders But what are some conscious things you did as a player to benefit the team? Outside of skill.

Graham 17:57

I think I would, I would often like check in with certain guys outside of practice. So like, if that was before or after, just like to see how things are going. Um, but a big part of that is just like having conversations. So it's not just like, Hey, how are you doing? It's like just talking about what you're doing outside of the game or how your family's doing, try to get to know each other a little bit. Um, I think that's a big part of kind of gaining us and building a team is like really getting to know each other on a better level. Um, so that would be something I think I kind of did on purpose. I was interested, like, you know, all the guys I played with were friends, so I was interested in it. But I, like, I knew the value in it when I did it, so that would probably be a big one.

Mathias 18:48

And then what about, you said you love playing with guys who are resilient and you can't tell how the game is going based on their demeanor and their attitude and their effort and all that. You were a guy like that. How do you develop that when those thoughts start coming through your mind and you're just having a terrible game, how do you stay with it?

Graham 19:11

Yeah, I don't know. It's a really good question because it's going to go poorly. Like it's, you're always going to have bad games. Um, for me, lots of athletes will like being, make a bigger story of it. So like, if I miss my serve. And I kind of go through, like, what's the worst case scenario. So, like, if guys are nervous to serve or play a certain point, like, what's the worst, worst thing that could happen is, like, you lose the point, okay, you lost a set because of it, and you lost a match. And, like, okay, the very worst thing is, like, you miss your serve and you lose a national championship or you lose in playoffs. And then like, what's the next step? Like, what does that affect in your life? So once you understand, like, it doesn't do anything to you and like your future for me, that's kind of like freeing. Um, so that was kind of stuff I would tell myself sometimes, um, at a certain point in my career, I actually told myself, like at the service line and this was like, when I was trying to hybrid and learning how I would just say, like, it doesn't matter if I miss for that reason, like it and like connecting the dots that it doesn't matter because. Okay. The worst thing that could happen is we lose the volleyball game. Um, once I understood that it really like freed me up to, to not worry about results as much,

Oog 20:40

I really, I really liked that. That's really cool. I think there's a interesting, what do you call it? A dichotomy when there's two different opposing things. I've like, sounds good. because I think like the freedom, the freedom that you gain from the, it doesn't matter. Mindset is amazing, but then you also need to maintain the I really care and really want to win side Yeah, and I think it's possible to do both But I just think it's an interesting kind of dynamic to play like I always thought of it as in a match when I was Playing my best I was constantly like zooming out and zooming in like when I was in those high pressure moments at the back serving I'd zoom out Notice where I am Notice that I'm just in a volleyball game, that this is sick. This is where I want to be and then zoom right back in and put everything I've got into like all my focus into one server, one action, one play.

Graham 21:43

Yeah. And that's, that's like super important. to What I tell guys, like it doesn't matter. It like, it's the only thing that matters until it's done. And then it doesn't matter at all. You know, that's, that's kind of the, for how I look at it. Yeah. When I play like, If you can get to that point where you're fully focused and it's the only thing your brain is going through for two hours, like that's where you want to get to and it's the only thing you you're thinking or caring about. And then as soon as the point is done or the match is done, then like you have no effect on it and it really doesn't affect your life. So really, very easy to say. Very easy to say to, to get to. And like not saying I was perfect at that. Like there's no way

Mathias 22:31

is that, I think that almost has to be a self-discovery process.

Graham 22:37

Yeah, I mean, like, like I just said, it's very easy to say that to somebody, for them to fully get it, or like, or start to grasp it. I don't know how, I don't know how to say it yet, to like, really get it to be understood. So I would say yes. But I think you can, you know, for a coach, it's interesting because the way that you respond to certain things really rubs off on players. So, like, if I'm freaking out after a game because we lost and I'm expecting my team not to, like, that's, that's not going to happen. So, it is kind of top down from that side of things. If a guy misses a serve and I show frustration or I throw my arms up, or I do it, Or whatever, you've had coaches that do all these kinds of things, like that doesn't help him understand that it doesn't matter.

Jesse 23:32

through a lot of that self discovery that you've had, you do do a lot of journaling, like I was actually going to ask this question earlier when you were saying you went through three phases in the last three months, like how is that just through trial and error or do you keep a log or how do you do, I don't know. I'm curious how you,

Graham 23:53

how you

Jesse 23:53

function

Graham 23:53

that

Jesse 23:54

way.

Graham 23:54

Yeah, and I don't like I didn't go through three phases. Just I went through a few different phases of like Teaching and telling everything and then realizing okay, that's not the way to do it and it's like it's always gonna be growing Yeah,

Jesse 24:09

yeah, I guess my question is how did you realize it? How did you come to that realization?

Graham 24:13

Yeah, it's not it's not through journaling Like I wish I wish I could be a guy that and practice or ends the day and writes down my thoughts and things I've tried to do that. I've tried to get into a habit of that. Never really, never really did. Um, but I am like, I think I'm pretty mindful about how things are going. So I will reflect and like take some time to think about, um, you know, is this the right way to do things? And I don't have any biases on that, which is, which is good, I think, because I'll just ask myself about everything. Like, is this the right way to do spike warmup? Is this the right way to play pepper? Um, a lot of people just take it as, You know, the way to do certain things. I don't think that that's healthy. Um, so like I'm always questioning things that we're doing or things that I'm doing and saying, um, not that I'm not confident in what I'm saying, but just like, is there, there's always going to be a better way to say or do things like this. There's nobody's got a code for that.

Mathias 25:20

besides journaling, what are some of the big habits that you had as a player that you think. But it's such a long and successful career.

Graham 25:31

Um, this isn't really a habit. I think the one thing is just like, I just love the game. So like, I just really enjoyed playing volleyball, um, for as long as I did, like I played, I think nine or 10 pro seasons and none of those were like, not fun, like I had fun every season. There were times in every season in which I did not have fun, but in general, like playing a sport or a game for, for a living is. It's pretty special. And I just love the game. Like, it's just like a huge love for the sport really just kept me going and kept me motivated to keep improving that, uh, desire to keep getting better. Even when like you possibly you're not getting better for me is huge to stay focused. So like, even if you're getting older, you're not jumping as high or you're not serving as hard or spiking as hard. The attitude of like trying to improve for me was always super important. When I didn't like volleyball. It was times where I felt like I wasn't getting better or I wasn't like in the process of trying to get better, not necessarily actually getting better. But are the things I'm doing, like, is there a reason for this? Is this. You know, am I, am I doing this to get better at volleyball or am I just doing this because it's like what we're supposed to do today?

Mathias 27:02

Yeah, there's a, there's a cool quote. That's, um, having things isn't fun. Getting things is fun. And I think it's, it's more of like a career thing. Like, you know, when you get your, you get a pay raise, that's amazing, but then you just get used to that level. Um, whenever you buy a nice car and it's super fun, but once you have it, it's, it's not amazing. And I think it's the same thing with volleyball. Like getting better and trying to get better and being in the process and feeling the improvement and moving to a better team, all that kind of stuff, doing a skill that you couldn't do yesterday. That's the fun part. I think, whereas when you just, when you find a level and you just accept that's my level and you try to maintain, I feel like the sport loses its kind of thrill.

Graham 27:49

Yeah. And, and in an attempt to maintain, like, I don't think you do. But in an attempt to, like, try to keep improving, that's often when you actually will maintain your level and your, like, your volleyball. Doesn't mean that you're always going to be improving, because that part, you know, if you connect, if you connect to, like, trying to improve and improving. So you talked about, you know, it's fun getting to a better team or playing better, getting to that point. If you connect your process to that stuff, that stuff doesn't always happen. You know, like, you're not always going to go to a better team. You're not always going to play better matches. Um, you're not always going to spike harder in the, in a small cycle or, or whatever. If you connect the dots to that, then I think it gets dangerous. It's like the process of trying to get better is what's important. You're not always going to, um, but yeah, that's, I think that's super important to stay motivated and just keep enjoying the game.

Oog 28:51

what would you connect your, your confidence to, and what are you, what's the reward of the process if you aren't making a new team, making more money, spiking harder?

Graham 29:09

Yeah, I don't know. I think, I think a lot of it is. Is, is like, you can convince yourself that you did everything you could, you know, so if I, if I make it to a better team or not, I'm going to be way more okay with that if I work my ass off for the whole year than if like, I didn't do enough and I didn't get to that team. Um, so like trying to, and it's kind of the wrong way to think about it is like to prevent regrets. Um, but like if you try your very hardest at something and it doesn't work out, like give me that. All the time rather than having an idea that, oh, I could have done a little bit more to, to make that team or to, to get five more points or whatever. I guess the reward is like peace of mind almost. Yeah. And then, I mean, this is another, I'll use your dichotomy word it's like, okay, is there ever enough? You know, like I go through that quite often, like, okay, I kind of, I could have spiked another ball. I could have served another ball. In this long term process in the season. So it is kind of balancing the two, like, Hey, I don't have regrets. I worked super hard. There always could have been more, you know, like there, I could have worked harder this year. So if you're ever at a point where it's like, Oh, I did everything I possibly could have, you're like, I don't think you're being very truthful on that. And that's with everything, like, that's not just volleyball. You know, like, you could have studied a little bit harder, could have slept a little bit better, could have ate better, um, and that's for everyone, like, that's for the guys who are super dialed into the world, like, the very best in the world. I don't think they think that they did 100%. So, it's kind of a balancing act, I think, kind of tough.

Jesse 31:02

It's definitely tough when, when, when you are trying to get those next contracts and you get them and like you went from. From France to Turkey, and then you went from Germany to Poland and Poland to Turkey, like, those are huge jumps to huge teams and leagues. How are you dealing with that pressure of being in a new environment that is significantly better than the one you were in before?

Graham 31:32

Yeah, that would have happened, that would have happened, like, a few times, going to Turkey. And then going to Germany was kind of similar, like going from Arcus to Berlin would have been kind of similar. Big jump like going to Poland for sure. Um, but not, I think it wasn't such a big jump because of like what we did on the national team. So like the guys we trained within the national team, um, that's like just a very similar level to what I would have seen like going from Germany to Poland. Those type of players so it's not like I've never seen or played with or against those kind of guys And then I just was thrown in So I didn't really feel that so much just because of like who we had in the gym and the national team had gotten up

Oog 32:25

How do you deal with the pressure in a match or an important game? Um,

Graham 32:31

I, I don't know. Pressure is always there. Like it's, um, the one thing we had, we had a good sports site, Kyle Paquette, um, and he, he often would talk about like realizing when you're, when you're feeling pressure, when you're nervous and like, you just can't trick your brain. And I'm like a full supporter of this. Like you can't tell yourself you're not, you're not nervous when you are. so like understanding and like realizing when you are nervous, I think lets that pass through your head way faster than trying to fake it. I'm gonna fake it by the way I look, for sure. Like, I'm not gonna, I'm not gonna try to change the way I'm, I'm acting in my demeanor. But if I can realize that I'm nervous, it'll, it'll leave my brain so much faster than trying to fake it and it'll come back and fake it and come back. That's more for kind of pre game stuff, I think. In game Um, I would often try to get back to like tactics would help me like distract my brain from being super nervous about the point. So like, where am I trying to serve? What's coming across the net? Who is it? You know, what's the blocking assignments versus who do we have blocking? That would kind of help me get back to the process of things that mattered rather than being super. Like your brain just full of nerves and pressure.

Jesse 34:02

What, what's your message? What, what, what is your message or what will your message be to first years by coming into the league, playing their first year against really polished, polished teams? Um,

Graham 34:21

the message, I guess, is just kind of, kind of what we just talked about for the last 10 minutes about being super like process driven. Um, and then, you know, this is where you can get to. But it takes and making them understand like what it takes to actually get there. That's a big one because it's not just like, okay, you're at this level and this fifth year is this good? Like the understanding that has to happen is like he got this good because of this like this is what he did. This is the time he spent the effort and the focus that he had in the last five years. That's why he's at this level. Rather than just guys thinking they're on a train that it's like, okay, my second year. I'll be this good. My third year I'll be this good. And my fifth year, I'll be as good as this guy, making them really understand what that takes. And then if it's for them or not, some guys, you know, it's not for them to put that much effort in. And that's totally fine too. Having a goal and not aligning your processes to get that goal is, is, you know, it just won't happen. And that's really important to make guys understand if that is your goal, great, but this is what it's going to take to get there.

Oog 35:33

And it's the law of diminishing returns too. The better you get, the harder it is to get better. In your first year in the league, you probably make massive jumps. Then second year, a little less, third year, a little less fourth year, a little less, I think probably by the end of your career, the changes are so small. They can have still big impact, but a lot of work for a little change.

Graham 35:57

Yeah, yeah, for sure. I think, I think, um, yeah, you don't, you don't see like so many guys that are. Super late. Volleyball is later, I think, than a lot of sports for, for improvement because it is such a, such a skill based sport compared to some sports. I mean, a lot of, I don't want people to watch this and think I'm bashing other sports, but every sport has skill. Certain ones have more or less, I think. So, like, volleyball, you can see guys getting better at late stages in their career for that reason, that, like, their just touch is getting better. They've gotten better. Um, it's not necessarily like your peak of your athleticism is your peak of your volleyball level. That's for sure, which is different for some sports. You know, if you look at football, like lots of those certain positions, their peak is when they're at their athletic peak. They run the fastest, jump the highest. Yeah, it's more important for some sports I think than volleyball is.

Jesse 36:59

Oh, that's a, that's a really good point. I remember we were talking about, or Ben, I think it was one year, Ben was telling us kind of, he was giving us individual players to watch based on our skill type or whatever, and then he told the team, go watch Juan Terrena eight years ago, and then go watch Juan Terrena now. And it's completely different, but he's just as effective. He's way lower, but he's, he's incorporated the tips and the dumps and the pushes and the highlines and the recycles where his physical abilities 10 years ago, he was going to OT everything and stuff like that. So I think it's a really, really cool point is that getting better is not just a physical thing.

Graham 37:43

Yeah, it definitely helps. Like, but some of those skills just take a long time to get good at. It, uh, if they match up, that's, that's when you're, that's ideal, but it doesn't really happen. What

Oog 38:00

was the highest high in your volleyball career?

Graham 38:08

Um, it would probably be, I mean, going to the Olympics, like to Tokyo and Rio, but then also what we did at, at, uh, World League or Nations League when we got third in, in 20, I don't know when that was 17 or 18. In Brazil. Yeah. Yeah. That was a big one. Um, yeah, but qualifying for the Olympics, like that would have been, that was massive. We haven't liked the team hadn't been there for so long. Um, we had put in so much work and then the thing that was special for me was like guys before us put in so much work that never saw success of going to the Olympics. So, like, without those guys, we wouldn't have been there, because then we would have been, like, fighting to increase our, our ranking to the top 20 to have a chance to do it, or whatever that was. Those guys grinded for years to, to give us the opportunity to To try to compete and then like to be successful and qualify. There was a lot of good players that came through Canada that, you know, didn't have a chance to play at the Olympics, um, and kept going. Like guys that stayed on the national team for so long, fought to help us and now help the current team too.

Mathias 39:37

That's cool. Kind of goes back to what you're saying about the reward might not be, be external, like for those guys that battled for years and years and years, and then never got to be called an Olympian. What's the reward? Yeah. Which, yeah, hopefully there's some peace of mind there, but

Graham 39:59

There should be. Like in my mind, like making the Olympics or not, that doesn't define you. That's not, that's not who you are as an athlete or person. And I know a lot of people, like that is hard for some guys who, you know, spent their whole career trying and then they don't do it. They really put that as a, As a failure rather than, you know, I tried my ass off and just wasn't, didn't work. Like sometimes the timing just doesn't work for certain guys.

Oog 40:28

Yeah. Yeah. There's a lot of randomness and luck with those sorts of things, especially, and even winning, winning anything, winning a championship, so much has to go right at the same time.

Graham 40:44

And what was the lowest point in your career? Um, like how far back do I want to go here? Like what's, I don't know. Where was there like a big lesson? Yeah. I'm trying to think. Of like, I missed my serve national final for club, like 18 year club, I think. So like, I don't consider that my career yet. But it doesn't matter, right? Yeah, exactly. But it did. Definitely. Yeah. At that time. Now, like, I don't care. And I tell people about it or whatever. It mattered when I was 18 that like, I think we were down four or five points. So like, small chance of coming back, but like my direct Action lost the match. That's how I took it as an 18 year old. Um, so like, I don't know if there was a lot of learning that happened right then. There was more learning happening like years later that I realized like, okay, that didn't matter at all. I'm now playing on the university team when I'm on the B team, junior team. Um, you know, there's nothing worse than missing your serve to lose in a final, And then I realized, like, okay, that doesn't matter. On to the next one.

Oog 42:10

Cool. Should we try Oog's rapid fire questions? Yep. And then I got to run cause I got to go pick up his horse. Um, what's your biggest volleyball pet peeve?

Graham 42:21

Um, maybe outsides being dirty on pipe when there's no block. So like, I did, I like did a great job of pulling the middle to commit and then free net over the three meter wind. Okay. That's rough.

Oog 42:42

Yeah, that's a good one. Um, who are your best friends on the dynos back during your playing time?

Graham 42:50

Um, that's a tough question. There's a lot like that was an awesome group. Um,

Oog 42:56

Yeah, just Don't say CJ.

Graham 42:58

Um, yeah, CJ. I just hang out with him yesterday. CJ, David Egan, AJ Halverson, Jace Richards. Um, yeah, there's a bunch of guys that, that, uh, kind of grew up with as well, like, through high school and stuff.

Oog 43:14

Yeah, that's sweet. That's sweet. Um, who is someone that motivates you to be better every day?

Graham 43:22

Ooh, um, probably my wife and kids because, uh, now like being better in life, like is for them and for us as a family. So like, that's. That's kind of where my inspiration comes from like seeing my kids play like me being more successful in life helps them Have a better life.

Oog 43:50

That's cool. That's all I have. So I, uh, I should go around and hook up the trailer and be out of here. But thanks for, thanks for taking the time, Graham.

Graham 43:59

Yeah, of course. Thank you guys. Bye Oog. See you.

Jesse 44:05

I want to talk about Oog's, um, or your answer to Oog's question about your family and stuff. we had a couple, uh, listener questions. About just like how you balance your personal life and your personal struggles being overseas. Well, let me actually let me read the exact question Did you have any struggles with balancing personal life and volleyball at any point? If so, how did the mental aspect of things affect both your volleyball and personal life? And what are some things you did in order to get back on track?

Graham 44:37

That's a deep question. Um One thing I realized at some point in pro was that I needed to have some more stuff in my life You So it wasn't just, I'm not just a volleyball player and pro that has so much time off and doesn't do anything. So the years, I took some classes when I was overseas, um, during certain pro seasons and I just felt better. Just felt, um, like my brain was more stimulated and I wasn't, uh, I think it helped like my volleyball as well, just having more stuff around. Um, I think there's a happy medium there. It's not, it's not like you have so much going on that, Things are super stressful, but also like as a pro, you've got a lot of time to do stuff. So if you're just sitting and watching TV and, and doing that, like I always felt better when I had some more stuff going on again, again, kids helped with that. Like you can't just sit around all day when you have kids, like you're out playing and you're at a playground. And I felt better like mentally and physically as an athlete because I wasn't just sitting around.

Jesse 45:52

Yeah. Well, and recovery has always been a big part of your persona, I guess, correct?

Graham 46:00

Yeah, ish. No, ish. Recover enough. I mean, I think that was kind of the case. I was never super dialed into recovery. As an athlete, like later in my career, I was better at it again. More curious about like what, what things I can do to help my, my body. Um, yeah, I think, I think there's some cool stuff now that even I'm doing, um, that I'm not an athlete that are trying to like improve my sleep and stuff like that. So like sauna and ice bath, like I haven't pulled up my ice bath for a while, but that kind of stuff I think is. Is not just helpful for your body, but like a huge part of the reason I like sauna and ice bath is like for your brain. Um, it's quite meditative for me. Cause you're like just trying to survive, you know, and you jump in a nice cold water. Like there's no other thoughts in your brain other than like, I don't know what to do, but die. If I'm in here for another couple of minutes, like I'm not going to get out. That's the only thing that goes through my head is like, this is terrible, terrible, terrible. So like nothing else is happening in my brain. So I think that's quite meditative. I never had very much success with meditation where it was like, try to clear your brain. Don't think about anything.

Jesse 47:27

Yeah.

Graham 47:28

You know, and that's, it's a skill. So like for sure, if I put more work into it, I would get better at it. So on a nice bath, you're just like trying to survive. So your body like doesn't let you think about other things. So I really enjoy that stuff.

Jesse 47:43

The, uh, you're, you're just ice brand. Is it just ice or justice?

Graham 47:51

It wasn't just ice, not the best branding.

Jesse 47:59

Was that purely like a business venture because you had to fill your time or is that because you truly believed in icing and you wanted to like spread the word of ice, basically,

Graham 48:12

I was icing this happened in FTC, so I was icing my shoulder. After each practice, cause I had some shoulder stuff going on and the options were like plastic bag with saran wrap around your arm or to buy like a hyper ice one, which was like super expensive. Or I could buy one that I kind of started selling, but it was from the States and there was like a hundred dollars in shipping and duty. So I just saw like a gap in Canada that no one was really. Selling it at that time, um, cause they're super cheap. Like they're, you know, it shouldn't cost you that much money. It costs me like 150 bucks for a very poorly made product. So I thought someone in Canada can do this and sell it. Um, so yeah, I went through, went through like a few different suppliers in China. Um, this was during FTC and like sent the product over there. They sent it back and there was like a bunch of different, took a while. Like it took, I didn't know what I was doing. Like I was learning it as I was going. Which was fun, like it was fun just like trying to communicate with someone from China about a product I wanted and then like hoping that they were going to send it after I like sent my money. I don't think we did it in like escrow, which is like a company where they like hold the money until both parties fulfill whatever they're supposed to do. I don't think I did it the first time. I think it was just. Like here's a thousand bucks or whatever. And I couldn't have a lot of money at that time, but it worked out. And like, yeah, it, uh, I made a few different orders. Never made a ton of money. I have like eight boxes in my garage right now, just full of ice bags. So. If anybody wants to make a wholesale order, let me know.

Oog 50:07

That's funny. We could put a little ad out for you on our Instagram. No, please don't.

Graham 50:12

I don't actually want to. No, it's not worth the time right now. I, I could have done more with it, but it would have taken like more effort. And I was never at a point where like, I wanted to really dive into it. And like, it wasn't something I would have made a ton of money with. But it was fun. It was, it was cool to kind of learn that process of importing stuff, business license and that kind of thing.

Oog 50:44

Yeah, that's cool. Um, what was that time period like where you retired for the first time?

Graham 50:55

Yeah, I retired or I stopped playing after we were in Ankara. Um, we had, we were in Turkey with like a brand new baby and a, like a just under two year old at that time. So like things were crazy. That was a big reason why we came back to Canada and thought we were going to just stop playing. I was going to be done, came home, got a job at a tech company, like a FinTech company in Calgary called Neo. Um, and like loved it. Love, love the people I worked with. Um, was really cool. Like the responsibilities I had, which I had, you know, I talk about not knowing how to coach or like, you know, I'm on the process of learning that I had zero idea what I was doing in an office. Like first, first job I've ever had. Googling Excel, like how to do Excel and formulas for Excel. Like every day I'm like hoping that nobody important was like walking behind me, looking at my screen to see like what I was Googling. Um, but it was really cool. Like I learned a ton in that year from that, that, um, has kept with me and has helped me here in this job too. Um, and then what happened? A buddy, um, from Argentina messaged me and just said, Hey, do you want to play again? I was like, no, I haven't worked out. Like I've looked out three times in a year and like, there's my shoulder hurts, my back hurts. There's no way I wanna play again. And then he told me where it was, and it was in the Canary Islands. So like, it's like the Hawaii of Europe. Um, and like quick Google search. I've heard it, I've heard of it before, but like quick Google search to see what it looked like. And I was like, uhoh, my wife is definitely gonna want to go here, because I was like, okay, it'd be fun, but it's gonna suck. Like it's gonna be, it's gonna be hard to get back in shape. It's gonna hurt. Like it's going to be quite a few months of not a lot of fun, but I knew like, I really knew she wanted to. So like I brought it up to her and like instantly like, yeah, we're going, um, which I'm really glad that we did. Like I, I was, it was an awesome year with the balloons there too. They were older, so it was much more manageable and it was way easier. Um, they were in like daycare. Our oldest was in Spanish public school, which, uh, was really cool. Like he started speaking Spanish at the end of it. Um, so yeah, I was, I was super happy to go back and then we were tempted to stay, attempted to stay there or find another contract and then this came up as well. So

Oog 53:48

that's interesting. That is not the story that I had heard and also not the story that I would have In my mind, it was like you, you retired and then you hated your new corporate job and then you wanted to go play again and just worked out that it was this amazing place. But

Graham 54:10

there were things about the corporate job. I hate there's stats. I mean, if you heard that part, that's for sure. But there were parts of it that I like really enjoyed. Um, the parts I liked was like trying, like learning something. I had nothing, like no idea, no business doing. Like I was having conversations with people where I felt. Like you are way better at this than I am. Like we shouldn't be having conversations with other like businesses. Um, but that was the cool thing about being in a startup. If you don't get that, if you go to a big company, um, you don't get that responsibility. I think no matter when you do retire, you're always going to miss it. It doesn't matter if you. Retire early where you could have kept playing like that's, you know, a lot of people have said that to me, like, why did you stop? It could have kept going. Things were going well. I think you miss it then. I think you also miss it. If you go as long as you can and you're, you're stopped by injury. Um, I don't, I don't know if that necessarily prevents you from missing the game, like I think if you did love it, you're going to miss it. No matter when you do retire.

Oog 55:22

Yeah. That makes sense. Um, I mean, we've been asking this to most of the guests that have come on recently and it's, there's always a price tag to people's success that you won't see from an outsider's perspective. Most of the time. So I'm wondering what are some of the biggest sacrifices you've made to play volleyball for as long as you did at the highest, highest level. And it could even be some, some sacrifices that other people have made for you so you could play for so long at the highest level.

Graham 55:56

Yeah. Um, I mean, being overseas, you miss, you miss a lot. I think you guys are aware of that, that lifestyle. You miss your buddies weddings. You miss your family. You miss important events, if it's family being born or things like that. Like, that's, that's a big sacrifice. My wife sacrificed a ton. Like, we were overseas and she was with me every year. Um, so like that, like affected her career for sure. Um, but we also had an amazing time, but I don't think she regrets it, but it was like for sure her career had some sacrifice because of our lifestyle and what we did overseas.

Oog 56:41

Okay. Here's, here's a piece that I actually don't know the answer to. Do you think it's a sacrifice or a massive opportunity to have your kids growing up? In a different country every year around the world every year,

Graham 56:55

massive opportunity for me, like it's, it's huge. I think it's, um, it's not just good for them, like for the kids, but I think it's good for parents to have like to raise kids in different countries and different, um, different experiences. It makes you really realize like how great we have it here, but also. I feel, I think I feel more calm as a parent back in Canada because of the stress we went through with traveling and raising kids in a different country. Um, like it's not easy to have kids in Turkey and, you know, find a doctor when they're sick or go to the pharmacy and not speak Turkish. And, you know, there's a lot of barriers and a lot of challenges to do that, which makes, which makes you, I think, understand that when you're back home, you know, that small things that happened aren't. Wild, crazy, overblown things that make you freak out. You know, like I see parents all the time going through airports. And they're just like ripping their hair out and freaking out, like unloading, you know, unload that stressful time of, of going through security with kids. Like you guys have seen people in Canada and like anywhere in the world, and like ripping out all the liquids and like, you know, the kids running around, they've got to go through security, but their toys have to stay in the stroller. Like that, that is stressful. But like going through that stressful stuff overseas, I think makes you realize that, Okay. It's just going to take a little bit longer and like, it's not, it's not as big of a deal as you make it. And I do, I do this, it still happens to me too, like you overblow, um, certain situations that shouldn't be as stressful, but they just get there. So I think it's huge for kids and, and for parents raising the kids too.

Oog 58:53

Yeah. That's cool. Especially at that age, you pick up so much. So like you're saying, your son was speaking Spanish by the end of the year, which is crazy. Yeah. It was eight months.

Graham 59:05

Yeah. It was eight months of like zero Spanish, didn't say a word and like, okay, hard to tell. Like, does he like school? Does he have any friends? How do they communicate? And then like the last two months, um, we were outside school one day, like I picked him up and he was talking to his buddy about like the color of our car in Spanish. And I know enough Spanish to like, understand what he was saying, but it's just like, yeah. What happened? Like, do you know what you're talking about right now? So that was pretty cool. Yeah, that was, uh, that was like, that was an awesome moment for me. Which, like, okay, learning Spanish is great. Like, the knowledge of the language is cool. But I think learning a language, like, the value for kids is much more about what it does, like, for their brain and their development, rather than actually the knowledge of having another language. Like, that's For me, that's like an extra, that's, that's a plus for your brain is huge.

Jesse 1:00:02

And just like them realizing that people are different, there's different people in the world and there's different cultures and there's different perspectives and backgrounds and stuff. And like them understanding that from a young age, I think is really cool.

Graham 1:00:14

Yeah. And that's, and that's like, they would have been more affected by that. If we played, like if I played longer and they were older.

Jesse 1:00:22

Right.

Graham 1:00:22

But I think they got some of it. It would've been even better if, you know, if we were still over there or if they were, if I was playing for another five years and they were like 10 and going through different countries like that. But yeah, I think, I think traveling for kids and young adults is huge. If you're able to, for that reason that you can see, you can understand that different people and other cultures and it makes you realize like we're all the same. You know, like there's, there's, there's not a big difference between people in the world. Mm-Hmm. Um, versus someone who doesn't travel. Like, you know, they may have a different outlook on how things go in a different country, which could be totally wrong'cause of their information is from the news or what they Google or whatever. But yeah, I think that's huge. Solly often brings up, like, he asked if we're in Canada again, like if we go up to the mountains and then we drive back to Calgary, he's like, are we back in Canada again? Like, is this Canada? So like, you know, kids have no understanding of what a city or country or continent is, but right. Just funny. Like you asked those questions that like. You know, he understands a little bit of some of that stuff.

Mathias 1:01:36

That's cool. Okay. Last question here. If you were to give yourself some advice when you were, let's say going up through the club system about to head into university, what would you tell yourself?

Jesse 1:01:56

Um,

Graham 1:01:59

I would have probably played basketball longer, um, or tried to try to play a little more sports like other sports in high school. Grade 11 I was pretty, like, focused in volleyball because I was worried about, about like scholarships and getting a university team. Um, but I think I would have, I would have tried to do like a little bit more other sports. Not because I like them more, but just like I think it would have helped. I think it helps your volleyball career as well. And then like to watch more volleyball, I didn't watch very much back then. I think it wasn't on TV or on YouTube. Like it is now. Um, I think that's, that's huge. I was lucky. I was lucky. Cause I had family that was really into volleyball, like with the Saxons. So they understood like the value of skills and, and beach and stuff. Um, but I think I would have done even more of that stuff, like more beach, more, more skill stuff, different positions. Yeah, skill is a, it's a long bird. It's super important.

Jesse 1:03:10

Good. Just dude, something happened. I, everything was all delayed and jumbled. Oh, I'm delayed

Oog 1:03:16

on

Jesse 1:03:16

my own

Oog 1:03:16

screen. well, does it sound okay? Yeah, it's fine. Okay, cool. What, uh,

Graham 1:03:23

what are you guys doing for Thanksgiving? Jesse, are you, are you, uh, cooking a turkey?

Jesse 1:03:30

No, I actually, I called my parents right before this. They were like, what are you doing for Thanksgiving? I was like, I don't know, when's that? Like tomorrow, I was like, oh, no idea, no idea. So, no, maybe we'll go for dinner.

Graham 1:03:44

That was something cool that, like, when we, we play this, I play with Shoji, like an American guy. And like, he would kind of. Bring some of those American traditions to like some of the European guys, which was kind of cool. Um, like we watched the Superbowl. I think it could have like typical American Superbowl kind of thing. And I think, I don't know if we've made a Turkey one year or whatever, But that was always cool. Like trying to bring like our culture or things that we do in Canada to like Guys in Europe because like it's it you're really just like thrown in that you're you're living the French life And you know everything about France. I always thought it was cool to like See if guys were interested to to do some of that stuff They come over and have a turkey that they've never seen a huge turkey cook like this before

Jesse 1:04:39

Yeah, I guess I didn't even think about that that you don't like, you know, you don't even think about that That's such a normal

Graham 1:04:47

Yeah, but like, unless someone was doing it, we didn't really do it either overseas, especially like our first, first while, but it's cool to keep some of that stuff and see, like, as I always enjoyed. I always enjoyed like seeing foreigners culture, like when I was overseas. So if like we were invited to a wedding or something or over at like a holiday dinner or something, I thought that was really cool. So I think it's, I think it's cool to do it the other way too.

Jesse 1:05:13

Yeah. Yeah. Well, the, the Brazilians hosted a big barbecue and pre season was so fun and so tasty. Like they were like, yeah, that's what we do. Like Tuesday, Wednesday, Friday, barbecue, like bring your own chairs, you eat, you talk, you laugh. Like it was incredible.

Graham 1:05:27

It Those countries have got barbecue, right? Brazil, Brazil and Argentina, like, we had the same, we had the, we had like three or four guys from Argentina on a team in Spain. And just like, it's a, it's a lifestyle. These guys, it's amazing.

Jesse 1:05:44

That in there, their mate. Yeah. They love that stuff.

Graham 1:05:48

Yeah. Yeah. That's funny stuff. I, we were in Argentina the first time when I saw that, I was like, people smoking, like, it looks like a little, I thought the same

Jesse 1:05:58

thing in team meeting. I'm like, what is going on?

Graham 1:06:05

I got one more question.

Oog 1:06:07

Yeah.

Graham 1:06:07

Pit pit to pro like pit. As in like you're at the very bottom. Is that what we're talking like a pit?

Oog 1:06:13

No, this is a, it's a good question. Actually. We should probably revisit that. We've gained a lot of listeners since, uh, since we talked about that. The, uh, the pit is what we call the basement of our house. So it's like pretty dark down there. Decent size room in my dad put chicken wire on the windows and protection on the lights and like curtains on all the walls. So we could just. Play any sport we wanted down there at full velocity. We're just hammering soccer balls off the wall, playing football, full contact. And we played a ton of volleyball down there. So that's what I was talking about with like the, the touches off court. So, yeah, we, I might've spent more hours playing in my basement than on court until like you 17, 18. So that's the pit. And then now we've, We've touched the pro level. So yeah. Cool. Call it the Pit to Pro podcast. Yeah, I like it.

Graham 1:07:11

Okay, cool. Have a good, uh, have a good weekend guys. Yeah, sounds good for coming on. Yeah.

Oog 1:07:16

Yeah. Thanks everyone for listening. Signing off.

1:07:21

Thanks everyone for listening to the Pit to Pro podcast. Give us a follow on Instagram and submit your questions to the link in our bio. If you enjoyed this episode, please share it with someone you think will like it and subscribe to our show on Spotify and Apple podcasts.