Episode #25 - What is High Performance, with Dr. Abe Avender

In this humorous and informative episode with Dr. Abe Avender, we discuss the arguments for and against stretching, what sets high performers apart from good performers, and the role, if any, for anti-inflammatory drugs in high level sport. We discuss the intricacy of volleyball training, the concussion epidemic in volleyball, and the power of sleep.

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Transcript

0:00

Hello, everyone, and welcome back to the Pit to Pro podcast. In this episode, we are joined by Dr. Abe Avender. Abe's list of certifications is much too long to share here, but he specializes in chiropractic, sports medicine, and injury management and rehabilitation. He's the head coach of the men's volleyball team at VIU and spent the last three summers with the Canadian men's national team, including their time at the 2024 Olympics in Paris. Expect to learn why 98 percent of tightness will not be solved by stretching, what sets the highest performers apart from the average, the single biggest investment you can make into having a healthy body, the pros and cons of lifting heavy, as well as the different types of pain and how to respond to each. Before we get started, I'd like to introduce our newest partner on the Pit to Pro podcast. I'm sure I'm not the only one who wants to hit harder and score more points. That's why we've decided to partner up with the athlete wellness Academy to deliver you guys the best in arm swing training With their new Arm Swing Academy, you'll receive personalized video analysis and feedback, along with individualized workouts and on court drills. for joining us. Continuous technical support and a dedication to this process will have you hitting harder and playing pain free. AWA has worked extensively with the three of us at the Pit to Pro podcast, as well as the top university programs across the country. If that sounds like something you want to be a part of, sign up for the Arm Swing Academy using the link in our show notes or Instagram bio, and get 10 off every month of your subscription. The Arm Swing Academy offers a 7 day free trial, which you can cancel at any time, and if you're not seeing progress after one month of joining the Academy, you will be refunded. It's completely risk free, so click the link in our show notes or Instagram bio and start your 7 day free trial today. But now, ladies and gentlemen, please welcome Dr. Abe Avender. Hello and welcome to the Pit the Pro podcast. Jesse, Matthias, and Aaron Elson. This podcast is meant to guide young athletes on their journey to high performance. Join us as we share our first hand experiences in an effort to help you reach your own valuable goals.

Mathias 1:56

And we're live.

Jesse 1:58

Bang! We're live. Abe, thanks a bunch for joining us. You're in Nanaimo right now?

Abe 2:02

I am. I'm home. Yeah. Yeah. My pleasure, boys. I'm excited to sit down with the triple threat.

Jesse 2:08

Heck yeah. It's awesome to have you here. I got a first question for you. Picture this. First year in university. Body's starting to ache a little loads really high and mom and dad sent him like 500 bucks What would be your what would you recommend they invest in in order for performance or rehab or? Whatever it may be, whether it's a massage gun or a tent machine or a good pillow or something like that.

Abe 2:35

Yeah. And, uh, I think it's a great question because I think that young body that all of a sudden volume just goes through the roof. There's so many things out there. There's so many parts to, to recovery and load management and all those things. But I think some of the biggest things I've learned over the years, it's not necessarily how many tools you got or. How much therapy you get and all these different things. But I would truly say like sleep, sleep hygiene, that kind of thing. Like I, I don't know how many 500 mattresses are out there, but something where your room is a great mattress, a great way to sleep where you get long, good quality sleep, like I think the more science to on depth of sleep and tissue recovery, even skill acquisition, learning those kinds of things that all happens once the eyeballs close. And if it isn't the greatest sleep environment where you're rolling and moving and creating all these different sort of opportunities to not have great deep sleep, it can affect it a lot. I think another thing that I would always, always say is that your nutrition is a massive piece to recovery. Like if you're that first year university student, never lived outside of home and you're crushing pizza pops and slurpees 14 days a week, it's like that's a really hard go on how that tissue will recover. I think resiliency in the first year is their bodies are pretty amazing still like they're they're still got that superpower young body that does turn over but if you if you sleep like crap, party like a moron and eat like a donkey, you're probably going to have a body that's going to slow down a lot quicker than most so, um, I think even something that I, I just, the more I think about that is like, get away from your screen for a bit, buy, buy a nice book. I don't even care what it is, but, but read something different. Get away from just the whole world of frying yourself all the time. And, uh, again, I think some self treatment can be good, but I think young athletes too, more is better. So they've got this sore hip and they're ramming a lacrosse ball in it for four hours a day. It's like, that's more traumatic than helpful. Um, and so those are kind of where I'm at with with that world of things, because there is so much you can type in recovery and find 9000 websites. Now of every tool is better than the next one. But At the end of the day, I think your conditioning and I think the higher level university coaches now they're starting to understand if you're going to run guys into the ground by Christmas, they're, they're not going to be where you want them in the, in the new year kind of thing from a university setting. Uh, so that really good quality base strength that you can. Build more resilient tissue to handle hours like that's what I preach every day in our gym is like you're not going to the gym to get that much bigger and that much stronger or faster you're getting there so you can handle hours and hours and hours of training and uh, we've been pretty lucky with, with that and I think even from the Canada side of things too, that's where they're at with, with a lot of high end lifting to tolerate the hours of, of punishment that the, the reps give you.

Jesse 5:19

Yeah, that's cool. That's really cool. We thought we had Nick on a while back and he said the same thing about the sleep. Like that's, that's number one, without a doubt.

Abe 5:26

Yeah, it totally, it's incredible. Like even the, some of the studies on like even learning and like I said, skill acquisition and recovery, it's just, it's, it's mind blowing. Like, like 200 times greater levels of healing happen once the eyes are closed. And I think you can take it for granted. It's like, well, I'll nap later or I'll, I'll have a late night, but I'll sleep in Sunday. It's like, well, it's Tuesday. Like you're going to be in a debt and it's going to be a hard run. Yeah.

Jesse 5:52

Well, see, you mentioned, uh, alcohol and obviously that's, That's everyone knows that's bad by now. Like if you don't it's bad. Yeah, but what about like vaping? Like, that's a huge thing nowadays, universities, even kids younger than that, they all got these little things, and nicotine, and

Abe 6:12

Totally. And I think any time you take an external chemical, you turn it into a vapor and suck it into your body, um, I have never read or heard anything in my life that was like, that's really good for you, like, that's, that's a great way to That sort of create quality, like even some of the chemicals, like even the flavoring chemicals, like there's studies where those chemicals have been done and used on rats and tumor growth is accentuated or cancers have started and things like that. So it is funny because. It's the always, it'll never happen to me story. Like, Oh, I can vape for my first six years of being a teenager and it won't cause me any issues. And, but anytime you bring a chemical into your lungs daily or hourly, or some of them, it feels like they don't unhook them from their face. That, uh, it's truly, it's poison. It's like. Even the way that nicotine works in the brain, like you become extremely addicted to the fact that you just need this constant stimulation of those cells in the brain. And, and it's hard to get away from it. And I think again, it's becoming too easy to use. Like it's just a thing to do. And it's like, man, it's, it's, it's not a good thing to do. Like it's, it's, it's a bunch of chemicals going in yourself. And, and, uh, I feel like that piece is, is really interesting, even with the ability to focus and, and the things from an athlete model of like, yeah, here's our game plan, but I. I haven't had 47 vape rips yet, so I can't really focus on what I need to do or it's an interesting animal and it is crazy how much it's sort of snowballing in the way of how many people do it. Like you drive by a high school and the school looks like it's on fire and it's just a hundred kids vaping everywhere.

Mathias 7:48

How do you, uh, how do you teach your, your team about habit formation and decision making?

Abe 7:56

Right. And I think it's a culture thing. Like we have this thing and we're lucky to have an island to do it, but we call it dry island. So with dry island, we all commit, like I say, you're not forced to, you don't have to, but we have a printout of our logo. And it goes around the room after we, like I always do like a welcome to the squad or welcome back to the squad sort of lecture at the start of the season and some of our rules and guidelines and, and that. And at the end of the day, I always say like, we want to be the best we can be. And if we are going to. Party Thursday nights, play Friday, party Saturday, come back to the gym or a workout Monday morning. It's like, and you're just going to rep that out for the whole time where we're just kind of ripping ourselves off and what we're going to be and we need everybody on board. And I think the culture that it's created, the old guys, really the young guys don't I'll often have an opportunity to do it because it's like, no, you're here now. This is how we work. And I think the culture of the accountability piece really has such a good buy in, um, like you get the odd loose cannon, but I think they get reeled in pretty quick, like by season start, like you got to. Two months before you play your first game kind of thing. So those are bits there and, and I think my background and even having this much more high performance level in the last sort of six or eight years, it's like they love that level. So it's like, if I'm working at that level, I think my voice means more to like an 18 year old of like, wow, I just got back from Paris. You must know a little bit about something. And, And so, uh, that buy in has been great. And I, and I don't use it as an ego piece, but I say like, if the best athletes in the world aren't strapped to a vap, a vape all day, well, you probably aren't going to get there if you are. So, um, I think that sell is, is pretty easy.

Jesse 9:34

That actually, that leads me into a good point. I had a question about like you yourself are a very high performer. You, you're incredibly knowledgeable. You work with some of the best teams, some of the best doctors in the world. You're incredible golfer, you're incredible coach. How do you. Not get burned out because you're, you're, thank you brother, such a high live, I'm serious, I've always admired that about you because you're always high energy, high, like, what can I do to help? What can I do to help? Oh, I know this thing, I know this person, but how do you not like just want to sit in a dark room for a little bit, get energy back?

Abe 10:07

Yeah, and I don't know, like, I, it's just kind of who I've been, like, I, I feel like. Growing up, I, even as a little guy, like in winters, I would play soccer and hockey, and then in summers I would play baseball and lacrosse and then that would be busy and then I just spool it in. But, uh, I think I'm very grateful for my life. I think perspective in life is a massive piece to the puzzle, to what you get to do, and I always love the, like, do you have to do it or do you get to do it? And to get to do the things I do, it's like, It's an honor and a reward and it's such a thing that I've worked so hard to get to this piece to like, I'll never forget, ever in my life this summer, that first match in Paris where the national anthem came on and I had my Canada stuff on. Like, I was at the Olympics with a team. Like, it was the dream. And, uh, but I, I know, and not that I deserved it, but I sure worked my ass off to get there. And I'll never half ass anything. Like, I'm never going to be a guy that wants mediocre in any aspect of my life. And. I do run hot and I know my family is always like, Hey, dude, remember us kind of thing. And, and I love my family. I couldn't speak higher of, of calf. She's probably the most amazing person I've ever met. My kids, like the dubs are my favorite dudes ever. Like when I get my time with them and that, and even now they're getting old enough where they can come to the gym and they're heavy ball shaggers at practice. And then they're loving that. And, but, but again, I think the perspective of like, Hey, yeah, what I get to do drives me in that way. And there's definitely days where like, Thursdays, I always call it my beast day. Like I go to the clinic at quarter to eight, first patient, 815, and then finish at 7 30, go to the gym video at 7 45. Practice at 845, 845 to 1045, get home about 11, 15 and that's like, there's, there's one lunch break in that. And so it's like the beast day, but I, but I bought myself Mondays with that because I make my clinic hours heavy that day. So I can have a Monday where I can get up and practice. Take the boys to school and then kind of have a bit of a day to catch up on things. But yeah, I try to take a holiday. Like I just did a course last week. I was in Austin and so we made it a little bit longer, Kath and I, and had a couple of days to have some barbecue and that kind of stuff. And like I say, I love my life. So it's not like I'm grinding to like get day by day. So I'm so grateful that. But when season's over, it feels like only one full time job is nice because I got some nights after work where I can come home and just do some regular life stuff. But. Yeah, I think I can balance it well. I don't know what it would be like to not have a freaking race car of a life, really. Um, but I'm not quite slowing down yet. We'd love to hear that. Yeah.

Mathias 12:40

Yeah, I kind of want to backtrack a little bit. We talked about kind of addiction and, and then you also, Touched on like just read a book in your very first question. Um, is there any I don't know What's your thought process on like just getting putting the phone down and doing other things? Like I know a lot of kids are like at my age Jesse's age, whatever younger than us are all glued to these things. What is the, like, what's the most beneficial thing you can do to just get away?

Abe 13:16

I love it, man. I think it's one of the most interesting, crazy conflicts in where our world is now. It's like, like, I always love from a treatment side of things or a evolutionary side of things, like humans, roughly. have been hunter gatherers for like 84, 000 generations and now for two generations we've stuck glowing things in front of our face and sat more than any species has ever gone from a mover to a stationary sedentary potato outside of sport or like and even some of those athletes like their only time of movement is at practice or match. Or training. And then it's like ass in chair and stare at glow. And so like even some of the studies looking at this areas of the brain now that are starting to change in the density of the tissues because of the bombardment of, of light. Like kids who are on these little, little bombers, they don't care what they're looking at. They get addicted to the stimulation of light. So it's like I always try to see even with our team. Like it's like real life's way better than the life in the phone. Like you might want to get likes and you might want to post good crap that you think is rad. But at the end of the day, like go outside, like suck in some real air, like get out of a screen, get off of that and enjoy like where you are, what you get, like even on the bus, sometimes like I ban phones leaving matches because they don't even talk. Like they'll just sit there and, and, and like they're on their phone and there's 18 guys on a bus and it's like, that's the coolest time. Like I remember when there was no phones when I played and it was like after a match, like if you won, it was a fun kind of cool vibe on the bus. And if you lost, it was a grind, but you'd talk a bit. So I think even the addiction of it, where you look at screen time use, like there's, there's kids now in grade eight. That are on their phones for like six, 10 hours a day. It's like, man, that's not human. That's, that's some weird cyborg stuff. And I think that's where to all the mental health, like there's never been. And I think the sensitivity to it is so much better now. And we understand more about it, but, but like, is there really this much. More sensitivity to it or is there way more issues of it because we're not as real as we used to be kind of thing is as weird as that may sound. So I'm a huge, huge, huge believer in like there's you can read a book on a phone, but it glows. Read a book on paper and it won't glow. Like even the therapeutic value. This is a great one on sleep, reading the same book on paper will cause you to fall asleep better, deeper, faster, reading that same book on a phone will create upwards of three hours of sleep. Of a decrease of time to get into a deeper level of sleep. So if you're going to go to bed at midnight, after you finished, and it might even be a good book, like it might be something that has nothing to do with like stimulating you in that, but now your brain's probably not hitting a deeper level of sleep till three hours later. So three in the morning, you're starting to get maybe some okay sleep. Cause you've got your face off your phone. And so even that, like it's the same story, it's the same words, it's the same everything, but one's on a non glower and one's on a glower. And so it's, uh, it's really interesting how the culture of our world now is like, So dependent on staring at something that's in a lot of ways, like just useless hours.

Mathias 16:27

yeah, that's really cool. I feel like that could be affecting team dynamics even, um, totally because we're not learning to communicate face to face as well. We used to. For sure. Those tough conversations that need to happen on teams often, I think people don't understand how to have them anymore.

Jesse 16:46

Or, or they'll put it in a group text and be like, Hey guys, we got to grind harder. Like we got to limit the excuses, but it's like, it's easy to say when you're sitting on your couch. Putting it in a WhatsApp group. Exactly.

Abe 16:58

Well, and I find even now 15 years of a head coach gig, like recruiting, like when I first started truly, it was almost like you'd get a kid to send you a DVD with some video on it, or like it was old school in that way, but when you. Talk to them. You'd talk to them over the phone or you'd set up a time to meet them at a gym or after a match or whatever and now it's like every kid's got a YouTube channel and they got 47 friggin apps to connect with them and all these different aspects. But like talking to them in real life, some of them are weird. It's like, but on the phone, they're cool. Like they're, they're interesting and they're way funnier in real life. They're like, Holy crap, you are awkward, man. And all I'm doing is looking at you while we talk, like if they're kind of snaking out of the way. And it's like, Oh bud, like this is called real. And, uh, so you're so right. Like the only thing we use for our team with any kind of digital side, besides doing video and stuff like that is an accountability workout, um, Like when you work out, we just have them post, uh, trained or lifted or whatever. And just so the other guys we have call out Sunday where we call guys out and say, Hey bud, didn't notice you were posting much or did you work out? And so, uh, I think that's, that's worked. But other than that, I really do try to be pretty low tech just cause they have enough outside of training.

Jesse 18:12

Well, let's stay on this uh, topic for a bit and last episode, um, TS kind of talked about his concussion a lot and how that's been affecting him and stuff like that. Why are so many athletes or why does it seem like so many athletes are getting concussions now? Was it always like that or is there something changed or why are so many athletes getting concussions?

Abe 18:37

Yeah, it's a, it's an awesome topic. And I think it's also a topic that, uh, our world of sport is starting to get worried about because it's like, from what the big dogs in the way of like human neuroscience and, and, um, Even behavioral science docs, and then you look at the high performance end of how fast can we make a human? How high can they jump? How hard can they hit a ball? How hard can they hit another human the mass of a man now or even yeah in women's hockey, too They're way faster and way stronger than they've ever been and so they're saying our tissue doesn't have the capacity to handle What the impacts of these projectiles like a volleyball to a body in football to something like that. So it's like we've created these monsters that our tissue can't handle the impact of what happens with it. So it's really weird like just even that course in Austin was a super high performance setup and they were talking about just how like we have to modify the sport potentially. Like, like there has to be maybe the volleyball is softer, so it can't get a velocity that they're getting out of it. Now, maybe in football, there has to be different rules around how you contact and that. But again, at the end of the day, if you change a sport that's been kind of as cool and attractive to people to watch it this long, like maybe you lose that and there's too much money in it, they'd rather give away heads and then lose the billions of dollars kind of thing. So, but it's a really interesting. Sort of problem in the way of like we've learned how to freak out humans so bad that they're just so physical that we can't handle the repercussions of what that physicality creates and So I think again like I would love to know I don't know but like what were guys hitting balls in the 80s compared to where they're hitting them now like seeing Nimir serve at 137 K like you can't even see it if you take that in the chin You're going to be out for a while and so it's, it's just one of those ones where like it just, it's like everything just gets better and bigger and stronger and faster and harder and I think that's why too and I'm grateful in lots of ways we are more sensitive to diagnosis and understanding that you don't just suck it up and get back out there and get another one and another one and another one because that's created. Disasters like those 60s, 70s, 80s athletes that were just knockers were just like, you're being tough by going back out there. And now they're like, yeah, some of them have committed suicide because of the depression levels that they've experienced and things like that. So I just think it's such an interesting topic of where high performance has taken the human body, but also the human body doesn't seem to be able to handle how crazy we are now.

Jesse 21:13

That's crazy. I didn't even know that. We had a dichotomy. Hey, good. Yeah. Yeah. Good word.

Mathias 21:19

Well, like when I, when I tell people about like TS, it's like, they're like, Oh, I didn't realize that you could really get concussions in volleyball. I was like, well, just think about getting hit in the head from four feet away at 120 kilometers. Like that's, yeah. Yeah. That'll give you one. Yeah. Yeah. We've had, uh, we've had five. This year, since the beginning of the semester, so

Abe 21:41

yeah, it is. And I don't know again, like how do you fix it? Like it would have to either be gear or rules and, or do you make the net 12 feet? So it's like guys have to chip. Or the freaks can still hit, but, uh, other than that, it's like, yeah, at that level, it's like, yeah, the, the net just catches serves. It doesn't do anything else like, and separates the sides. Like it, the, the games played so far above it was such physicality that, yeah, if your head's the by product of it, you're going to have a concussion.

Mathias 22:14

Yeah. I want to go back a bit to, uh, your experience in Paris and with the national team over the last couple of years. Um, what, uh, what have you learned being in that gym? For two years versus other gyms you've been in. And then also I want to know what you've learned from Thomas Samovua specifically.

Abe 22:35

Yeah. It's been, like I said, the dream, like to have three summers now with the A team and be around that like that. And, and, and even the difference, I think of, of like someone like Ben, when he got on board and then having Thomas step in the last two summers, like the quality of athlete is, is the biggest difference I think in every way, like their, their mental capacity, their physical capacity, their compete, their recovery. Everything they do is like to be the best or try to get to the best or be greater. And I think the whole aspect of the way even warmups run, like the, the quality of you're there that much earlier, you're, you're fully ready to go when the, when Thomas says, okay, guys, it's showtime. Like you can get into any drill at any time because you're that ready to go. Um, I think again, uh, Drills are so smooth because the quality is so high. Um, sometimes I'm like, oh, this drill will be awesome. I'm going to take, steal it and take it home and use it with our guys. And sometimes it's just because the quality isn't there and they're the best 14 guys our country had to put in there. So it was like the quality of the gym is so, so high and the compete. Like, I just love how, like, yeah, if you're. May not a side. Well, you want to be a side because you're that good and I love that. Like even the battles that are in training and some of the chirp and that and it's real like they, they want it. And I always love that. Like, I think that's what's driven me to high performance. It's just as a, as an athlete myself, like I was minor high performance at my level of volleyball at university when I played, but Like I just love the animals, like the, the freaks in the, in the nine by nine. It's, it's really great to, to be a part of. And Thomas is, is probably one of the most unique people. He is one of maybe the most unique guy I've ever met. I think his background and what he's done once as a player and now as a coach. And I think even the culture that he's created where being in Russia and being Being European and where you can be really hard and really firm and like, there's no wiggle, like, like Thomas is black and white. And if it's his thing, it's his thing. And like, he's, he's very. I think one thing maybe this summer with the Olympics that was interesting was one of the first things they told us was like, if you think you can control the Olympic Games, you need to change your attitude because you will go crazy. Like, you can't control security, you can't control traffic, you can't control weather, you can't control lineups, you can't control all these things. And Thomas Bitsy, because he has such a A need to want to control and it does it at such a high, high, high level. Like he's world class in that, but I think it drove him crazy. Like, like I remember coming back from training one day and it was just a 90 minute. Mild practice, but there was a two and a half hour bus ride to get back and he was ready to like, rip the bus driver out of the seat and take over and it was like, it was a traffic jam, like they rerouted everything for the triathlon, but he was like, we have to go another way. Like, we can't deal with this. And it was like, well, where are we going to go? Like the only way out is a helicopter. Like we got to go up and then move the bus that way. Like, and, uh, but just the quality of coaching, like I will never, ever his focus level, forget like those things of like that Argentina morning match. And this is a hilarious who Thomas is. And, and maybe to me, uh, and him and I have become quite close. Like we keep in touch regularly and I really like him and respect them, but I didn't know him super well, two summers ago. And so we're in China and our matches at 10 o'clock. Breakfast ball to the max at 645 or down for food. And he, he's there and he's in full robot. Like he's not no emotion. Like I need to put this fuel down my throat and that's my job. And then I'll get on the bus and leave. So I meeting me, I roll over and I'm just walking past them just to get food. And I'm like, morning, Thomas. And he stared at me like I burnt his house down. Like it was the worst stare down of, and no mourning, no hello, no nothing. And, and the cool thing with Thomas, like he's a pretty broken soldier. So I treat him all the time, like all the time. Like, like I'll get these voice texts like, Hey, I will be in your room shortly for treatment before bed. I need my back or my neck or my leg or whatever. And, uh, and I love it. Like, it's fun working with him, but so he doesn't even, Say like even morning, like nothing, no word. And I'm like, Holy crap. Like I saw him last night, like 10 o'clock to treat. And then I didn't do anything in the night. So like, why did I do something wrong? Like, I was kind of nervous of like, Holy crap, like what's up here. So. We go to the gym, we play, we do all the things pre game, all the things feels like normal, but he's in full, like, assassin of, like, we're gonna try to find this Paris trip. And, uh, so we, we're almost in the parking lot back at the hotel and he's like, uh, hey, he turns around and I'm like, yeah, he's like, uh, let's, uh, let's meet in the lobby before we, um, go to our room or whatever. And we pumped Argentina, like it was a great match. And, uh, so I'm thinking, holy crap, I did do something wrong. Like something's up. And, uh, so we get in the lobby and, and he's like, Abe, remember this morning? And I'm like, yeah, all right, go, uh, what do you mean? And he's like at breakfast. You say good morning and how are you and I say nothing and I said, Oh yeah, I remember and he goes, uh, on game day at that time, I am very focused and I do not waste any words. And so I joked with Bravo later. I said, uh, yeah, I guess man, he couldn't even throw like a morning or a two word good morning at me, but that's the level. A focus this dude has like he's saving words and so it was one of those things. I'll never forget like and then we are good Don't worry bud smacks you on the back like thanks for all your work and all this but it was one of the most priceless things I've ever couldn't even say morning no extra words for you, but Uh, but i'll never forget that like he is a unique animal and and what he's done like like with the with the team in just two short years like um just the demand and what he gets out of the guys and, and that is pretty incredible.

Mathias 28:38

Wow. That sounds like Thomas, man. Oh yeah. So yeah, it's, uh, it's honestly refreshing to be around that kind of a guy because you know, where you stand with him, I guess not so much in that story. That was a little confusing, but, but he'll tell you, he'll tell you exactly how it is and what he needs from you and, uh, how things are going. So, yeah, it is, it is nice to be in that gym. You know exactly what you got to do to be on the team.

Abe 29:06

Totally. And the quality of his coaching, like Emil, you'll know as well, like his game planning, his structure, his just like everything about him is, is. Professional, like to the highest level of it. And even when he explained that to me in the lobby, like afterwards, I felt like, huh, okay, that's I'm good. Like I didn't do anything wrong. Like I'm sweating, working my ass off. And I thought I had done something terrible, but it was like, no, that's how focused this guy is. For a massive match for our team. And, uh, so, uh, like I say, I love high performance and if that's the way this dude rolls, I'll roll with you, buddy. So I won't say good morning, see you tomorrow. Like, uh, like, uh, I'm fine with that, but yeah, no, he's, he's the neat guy.

Mathias 29:46

In, uh, One day in training, I was eating a Twix bar after practice, which was probably not a good idea, but anyways, yeah, yeah, Jesse's fiance now brought it to me and I was fired up because I love Twix and he comes out there and just, what's this? I was like, oh, it's a Twix bar. You don't have those in, in Russia or whatever. I was joking with him. Big mistake. No smile, no nothing. He didn't, yeah, he didn't really say anything about it. I could just tell he was disappointed. And then the next morning at reps, he calls me into the weight room. By myself, it's me and like four coaches and it's like this serious meeting. It lights me up for eating this Twix bar. Yeah. And I was like, okay, yeah, no problem. Like I can, I can dial in here. You're right. And then throughout the whole summer, I kept like tossing in these little jokes about eating Twix bars and not once did he laugh.

Abe 30:44

Yeah, well that's like, uh, that first, the very first meeting of them I had was in France, like in tour at that hotel, and, uh, there was, they, it was the first set of meals, so they brought dessert out. And it was hilarious because Holf goes over and grabs a couple of brownies or whatever it was, and, and, uh, Next day, breakfast cancelled for the rest of the trip. Like, we do not need this crap. Why would we have it? We are athletes, and you will eat more chicken, not freaking brownies. And, uh, yeah, like if, even if it came out, he would be like, nope, this goes back. Like, it's like, he wants every aspect he can get out of the guys, and it's such a unique trait. And because of his resume too, like I said, like with our guys, sort of looking up to where I've been with some of the things I'll say, it's like, those guys, like Steve said, Marr, As long as Thomas coaches Canada, I'd like to have him be my coach, like I would like to keep playing. And so it's like when you're kind of getting your top dogs that bought in with because of the caliber you are of a coach, that's pretty awesome. Like that's, that's a pretty neat, uh, neat level for us to have as Canada and Canada Volleyball sort of thing.

Mathias 31:52

What are some of the other highest performing organizations you've been a part of? You had some time with the Blue Jays, I heard, and the Lakers.

Abe 32:02

Well, it was more like being a super geek. I wanted to shadow and be a part of like as much of as I could so when I was in school in Toronto, um, there was a doc that worked with the Jade's who was specific sort of pitching and shoulders. And so, uh, I went to a course of his and I asked him, I was like, Dale, is there any way I could maybe hang around with you a bit and just sort of see what you're up to? And And, uh, really good guy, like, like, super, super good practitioner, a really professional man, and, and, uh, he said, you know what, I used to do a lot of that, but, uh, I've decided that, uh, it almost became like students would show up, and then they wouldn't come back, and then they'd show up two weeks later, and, and I just became super loose, so I, I don't think I want to, and I said, well, how about, I'll promise you. Like I'll come every Wednesday or whatever day it was. And if I screw up once, you can punt me out. And so, uh, it was, uh, he said, you know what, uh, let me think about it. And then through the weekend, the course kind of. Uh, went on and, and whatever. And on the Sunday at the end, he said, you know what, meet me at the clinic here next Wednesday. And, and sort of, it went from there. So I had about eight months of kind of back and forth a little bit with him and his like shoulder specialty. And when you're looking at, again, MLB shoulders, it's, it's one of those things where if it's a hundred million dollar doc holiday shoulder, you better do the right things with it kind of thing. And so I wasn't affiliated in the sense with the Jays, but to have a Jays doctor, Rehab doc sort of be around was, it was awesome. And then some of the trainings I've done down in LA and that there was a summit, a similar to, uh, teaching symposium that I was just at in Austin there last week, um, it was in LA. And so a couple of the LA like strength docs or strength coaches and those kinds of guys were there. And it's a similar analogy of like, if you're going to tweak LeBron James and how you're, what you're going to do with them, like, I would love to learn that. Because the guy's worth a billion dollars because he can run up and down a basketball court and do what he does for as long as he's done it. And, and that's where I think that type of care is what I would like to give anyone or everyone. You don't need to cookie cutter somebody and that, and create just this like, yeah, generic, Chapter seven, shoulder rehab. And if you don't fit in chapter seven, why you just leave them there. And, uh, to me, that's really driven a lot of my learning and a lot of things like that. It's like, I want to learn from the best and I want to see what the literature says. And I want to be able to give as much as I can in what I get to do. And I think that's why, like in Paris, like I was. It was amazing how often like I was treating and I just said, I'm full commit. I don't care if it's Groundhog Day where I'm up at six and in bed at 2 a. m. Like I'll do it. Like this is the Olympics and you're seeing some guys twice a day. And, but it was one of those ones that didn't care how tired I got or how, how hard it felt or whatever. It was like, it's game on. It's, this is why you're here. So. I bought in that way with, with skills that I, I'm confident in. Like, uh, I will work on Eric's shoulder before the biggest match of his life any day, and I know Eric, like before matches, Eric, when are we doing the tune up? And so like, to me, that's. I've built enough respect and, and trust in, in having, yeah, three quarters of the team is getting tuned up every day and, and I, and I love doing it for them because they do feel better and they function at a higher level and they recover quicker and, and those are the bits that, yeah, that an athlete at that high, high end wants and that's what, that's where my sort of passion lies in it.

Jesse 35:27

What would you say to someone who is very loyal to their. Specialist, whether it's a therapist or a rehab ist, is that a word, or rehab ist?

Abe 35:41

Therapist. Whatever. Yeah, yeah.

Jesse 35:42

Therapist. Uh, who's very loyal and to the way that they treat them and the exercises they're doing and are unwilling to try new things, are unwilling to change the way that they do things. Approach rehab or performance.

Abe 35:56

Yeah. It's, it's such an interesting topic. I think at the highest end of sport, it's like if that athlete's got there and they've got their guy or their girl, or they've got their strength coach that's kind of helped get there and they're performing at a level that they're at. Where they feel they are playing the best or as physical as they've ever been. Those ones are hard for me to argue, but I also think there's the other side of the coin where this athletes run into chronic injury and they're just kind of patching their self together. And, and, and, but that person's been there person for that long. Well, At the end of the day, if you're not improving, or getting stronger, or getting out of pain, or your functional capacity is not better, I think you can be stuck, but it's also this weird competitive randomness that I think I hate more than almost anything in therapy, where it's like, No, no, I'm your guy. You're not allowed to go anywhere else. Like, no, I don't care if that person is great and they know what they're doing and that. It's like, no, no, I got you. I'm your guy. And it's like, to me, that's pretty selfish and also pretty arrogant because it's like, I think the more that you learn at the highest level of human performance and therapy and diagnostics and orthopedics and all the big things that go into that level of athlete, yeah, you. You can't be the best at everything. It's, it's humanly impossible. Like that side of things is like, well, no, my exercises are better because I decided I want to do something different than the other guy down the street. It's like, okay, well prove it to me. Like, like who is the clientele you see? Because if you're just seeing weekend warrior, slow pitch guys, or you're seeing, yeah, you're, you work for the, I don't know the Phoenix Suns and Kevin Durant, your regular guy. It's like, okay, I think that guy's probably pretty good. Like, again, you don't work on a hundred million dollar athletes if you don't know what you're doing. But, but I feel like the arrogance of some people in that field or those fields is, is too big. It's like, okay, man, like, like tone it down five notches and let's see for this athlete's sake. Um, Let's see what we can do for them. Um, but at the end of the day, it's the athlete's choice. Um, I think that's what it should be because you're like, unless it's a kid and they don't have that maturity to make the decision, but as a grown man, if you're not in a situation that you feel you're getting the most out of whoever's dealing with you, you need to. Move forward. Um, because it's your career. It's your life. It's your high performance world. So like, I think some young athletes especially get trapped in that where it's like, nope, they told me I have to do this. And it's like, well, is it working? Nope. Well, how long are you going to stay there for? Um, and that's really disappointing because there is so many great people out there. And that's, I think something more and more that I've learned. It's like, I want to be really good. At my window of what I do, and if I'm not good enough at it, I would love to get you in another scenario where we can help you get there together, or it's three or four or five people that all get together and that cumulative treatment or care is that's Ferrari, like that's, that's why the pit crew has way more than one person in it is because you need to have those different specialties at the highest end that can give you everything you need.

Mathias 39:09

How would you help, um, someone discern good advice from bad advice, get a lot of our info online these days, or even if you are going to see someone in person?

Abe 39:20

Yeah, I think that for sure. I think the source again, is always a huge one. Like there's so much biased research because if a company wants to sell something or a clinic wants you to come for their specialized treatment and they've done the research, Or the supplement company has done the research on this best protein on earth. It's like, who said you like, cause of course you want to say it's the best because you want to pad your wallet. And at the end of the day, maybe it's the 19th best. But if you say best, cause you're a marketer, then a lot of people will go into it. But like, yeah, peer reviewed high end, non biased literature. And that is high level science. And I'll often say, I really love science because it's hard to argue. Like there's not a ton of gray in some of those things like there might be gray in certain aspects of like you looked at a jump study and it's a volleyball athlete versus a high jumper like there's okay a little difference in the demand of the jump or the type of jump but at the end of the day I think I will always say to patients if they're say leaving and going somewhere else to move or live or travel or whatever it's like when you phone a clinic if you're an athlete you say do you deal with high performance athletes. Because if a clinic does, you can probably, most cases, bet on they know what they're up to in most ways. Where it's like, oh no, uh, we deal with mainly geriatric and kids. And you're, uh, Jesse. It's like, well, Jesse's not a kid and he's not an old man and he's a high level volleyball player. And so it's like, Jess doesn't need to go there and it's nothing against, it might be the best geriatric kid clinic in Arizona. But if it's not what your kind of niche is or what you need, I think that's, that's one. Um, also at a high level of sport, if you're not getting better or you're not getting stronger or you're not getting what you think you're putting in, like if you're getting. Treatment three days a week for four months, and you still feel the same. I think yours, T. S., is a little different animal with a brain. But at the end of the day, soft tissue wise, or sprain strain wise, overuse wise, like, that person's not doing a very good job. Because there's this thing called natural history. And that's how long something takes to get better with nothing done to it. And I always say the greatest docs, the greatest therapists in the world make natural history really short. Because they make you better, faster than what your body could do. So if you're taking way too long to change things, And long is like, when I always say in the clinic, the worst word for me is chronic. When someone comes in and says, Oh man, I've had this shoulder problem for 11 months or nine years or something. It's like, Ooh, this is going to be a monster because it's been around so long. And that's why, again, at high performance level, you're on that shoulder that like 12 minutes after they start complaining about it because you don't want it to compensate you don't want to Build scar tissue and fibrosis and all this compensatory crap because it's hard to get rid of And but when that demands there and this therapist like no, no, we're on 39 visits and you still feel the same 40 is going to be amazing. It's like no, it's not you're way too deep man. This is brutal um, and that's where again i've even had cases for me where And they're more I think in an autoimmune sort of disease based patient where it's like I really I'll do everything I can for you, but I can't treat an autoimmune disorder of a rheumatoid arthritic shoulder where I'm going to create some inflammation when I'm treating you like that. That's not helping you. But I wouldn't have the ego to be like, well, let's just keep doing it. And one day maybe this miracle is going to happen. It's like, that's, that's just a terrible ego. So I think that's where I would try to assess it. So I'd say, yes, I, I, I'm a sports doc. I go to, I see high level athletes. That's a, that's a good first start. And then if you're just reading online, like what should I eat after a match? I wouldn't read it from the supplement company, I'd try to read it from like a, a, a reviewed study that looked at protein consumption after match or after performance, something like that, where it's like, that's some pretty good data, because the good thing about a high level study, you can't really argue them super well, because if they're done right, and they're, they got a good subject base, it's, it's good science, um, and that's where I think, again, at high level, it should be that.

Mathias 43:17

On this kind of topic of pain, I just, one question I had was like, what is your Thoughts on the role of painkillers in high performance athletes. Like, I think that's a big thing nowadays.

Abe 43:27

Yeah, and it's, it's a too much thing, I would definitely say. Especially too in that younger, like, maybe last couple years of high school and then into university where they're on the high dose vitamin I. Um, the ibuprofen train is running hot. And, uh, it's really sad because a lot of times I'll say, like, pain is a natural physiological thing that the human body has to have. If you didn't have pain, you could saw your arm off and not even realize you did it because pain will tell you to stop sawing. But, uh, it is definitely something where when you can mask it for prolonged periods, and it's amazing too, every person that I think I've ever talked to that have had ibuprofen stories, it's like they started with just one on a game because they were a little sore. And then it was like, Oh, I feel pretty good on that. So then I tried one on the last practice of the week because I was starting to feel pretty stiff and sore. And then now I was like, now I'm doing a two practices a week and now I do it for every game. And now I'm doing instead of one, I do two and now I'm doing extra strength. And now I got. Ulcers in my guts and I'm pooping blood and I, and I, my blood pressure at a 22 year old athlete level is like a 59 year old smoker because every time you take a big high dose of NSAIDs, your blood pressure goes up. And so those aspects of it, it's like the secondary effects are terrible. And when you mask pain with meds, you're not helping yourself. You're not helping that injury. You're not curing it. Like I think even the word inflammation is so, It's so commonly used and it's right in the way of what's going on there. But if you take an Advil, do you think it floats into your right shoulder and sits there and puts the inflammation out? It doesn't, like, sorry to break your heart if you believe that, but it doesn't. Ibuprofen or any med in the world doesn't float around and find where you're inflamed. It just, in most cases, plugs some receptors that create inflammatory process, and it blocks them a little bit beforehand, so you feel a bit better. And then they wear off, and you're worse than you were before. And then you eat more and more and more. So it is really, really sad. And that's even going back to where we just talked about with therapy and that. It's like, like, if you need meds that much, To perform, you need to get fixed. You need to figure out what the hell the pain's for or why you're getting it and deal with the pain. Like, at a high level of sport, like, it's neat to see too, the real physical specimens out there. Like, that stuff's foreign almost to them. They're like, no man, I'm going to work through. I'm going to rehab. I'm going to condition. And, uh, and so that aspect of, of just how much it just becomes something that they do. Like, I was at an arena a couple years ago and they had ibuprofen in the vending machine. I was like, oh, you can buy some Doritos, a Twix, or some good old ibuprofen. It's like, what do you mean if a kid hit the wrong number and the thing fell out and they just crushed 12, 400 milligram ibuprofen? It's like, but that's how easy it's almost becoming accepted. Which is brutal. It's terrible. Um, I'm a big believer in, if we can't sleep and not sleep meds necessarily, but if we're in a lot of pain post match shoulders, humming back sore, and you need to get close your eyeballs, I might be somebody that'll say like, have a bit of grub, put something in your tummy, take an ibuprofen. If you want to just to get you to be able to close your eyeballs and get some recovery sleep, but yeah, just eating it. Cause you're itchy. Doesn't I'd say, scratch like, don't, don't just pound ibuprofen.

Mathias 46:45

Along those lines there. How do you know when pain is an indicator to stop or because athletes are conditioned to push through and I think the best athletes do most of the time. I know that was really difficult for me when I was playing. I show up to lift and my back is jacked, but I just find a way to go and hit. Hit back squats anyways, and some days they would make it way worse and other days they would just disappear So, how do you know what that pain is?

Abe 47:12

I I think there's some definite awesome stories This could be a whole podcast itself But I think the intensity of pain is a huge indicator like like I know one doc that I really respect in the return to play type world of things is like if you're paying seven out of ten or greater You're not doing physical activity. You're not trying to lift through seven to eight to nine out of 10. Like your body's in a state of holy crap when you're in that level. But if you're in that three to four, it's got some ache and some stiffness to it. And you know what, as I warm up, it got a little better. Um, That we can talk about, I would say, in the way of, like, getting you more physical into the pain levels. Uh, one of my favorites, and again, this past weekend, is another part of where, this past week, with that course down there. Where is the pain? Like, is, there's a great diagnostic tool they use. Is it a closing angle pain? So, like, if I was going to do a bicep curl, the closing angle's in the front. The opening angles in the back. So if your pain's in the closing angle, it's either cartilage or bone. And they even joke in the way of it's hard stuff. It's hard stuff hitting into itself. So like if you try to stretch your ass and you're going to grab your knee and pull it up to your chest, but all the pains in the front of your hip, you're not stretching your ass. You're comp, you're compressing the front of the hip. You, you might be pinching the capsule, pinching the labrum, pinching the cartilage. So that has zero value. Absolutely nothing is about closing angle pain is good to man up and get through it opening angle discomfort because it's a lengthening discomfort is something we can probably work through, we can talk about a little bit. The intensity of it can be there and that kind of stuff. And I'll often say with pain, how were we after? How are you after your lift? How are you after practice? How are you after that? If it's like my pain got went from three at the start of training to three or four or five in training, but then at night it was a nine. Okay. It's like it couldn't handle what you just gave it, like it didn't have the capacity to recover. But if you started at three, it got to four or five during the lift or during the training. And then that night, you've done a gentle stretch, you've done some recovery, you've done a bit of, I don't know, Norma, you've done something like that. And at night, it's back to three, right? That activity was awesome. You didn't piss it off. It recovered in a small window. But for four days, if you're sore after one lift, That lift kicked your ass or your tissue just wasn't able to tolerate that load or that movement or whatever. So the management of pain is so valuable because also laying in your bed like a potato because you have a stiff low back for two weeks is a disaster. You're deconditioning yourself to a level you'll get out of bed and be a noodle, but your pain's better. But then you go do a plank and your back freaks out because you've deconditioned for two weeks in bed. So, you have to find the window that it lets you move, because we're built to move. That's what humans are for. Like, we're 600 plus muscles and a thousand joints. It's like, move yourself. But you have to move yourself in a window that it lets you. Because if you try to move through it, you're going to fall out of it, and then you're going to be in a lot of pain, and that's going to be a worse day for you for sure. Um, so yeah, intensity and where the pain is and even how long has it been there? Like, there's lots of aspects that I'll say that we can play with. But like I say, this is a whole animal that I could talk to you guys for nine days ago, probably.

Jesse 50:22

Yeah. and you've talked about this conference you just went to. You've talked about working with the Blue Jays and the Lakers and all these other things. And on your website. There's like over 45 different certifications and performance items or whatever, which, which of those 45 is the most important.

Abe 50:41

Yeah, it's interesting. Just I don't think there is one. I honestly think it's like when you first start and it's almost like school you start really broad and you start finding fundamentals and figuring out like I'll say in my industry of like, I really take a ton of pride in understanding anatomy. And what does that anatomy do to create movement? And so for me to say, like, well, my anatomy was a 10, but I went to this ultra high performance treatment course. And it's like, well, I didn't even know the muscles I was on, and I didn't know the joint, and I didn't know what it did. But man, this course was badass, because there was all these wicked docs there. It's like, I think it's a build thing. It's, it truly is. It's like, like, even in a lot of those courses, I will put dates on them because it's like some of them were pretty basic understanding type courses, but it got me an understanding to get to the next, the next, the next, like this again, this FRS summit that was down in Austin. It's like, it's some of the most elite docs in the world of movement. And, uh, but I, I would have no clue if I went there without a good understanding of what kind of built to those. And I think for young people aspiring to go into this world too, it's like, you can't just jump into like, well, I heard this guy did this. Well, he's been practicing for 15, 20 years. Like his base of what he's got is pretty bad ass. So he can add some really specific type things to his practice. Cause he gets it. Um, if you put a whole bunch of letters behind your name, but don't know what the hell they do. Cool. It's like, congrats for your letters. Like, it really is, like, anyone can throw letters on something. So, that's where I would say, and it's a really awesome question in the sense of like, yeah, what is the best one, if I could only have one course? Uh, well, I would say the course should just be called Life and learn all your life. And then, get really good at learning. Um, because then you can be badass at whatever you want to do. That's a good answer.

Jesse 52:27

Alright, hit em. Rapid fire questions at OOG. Um, okay,

Mathias 52:34

the first one, what is your chiropractic pet peeve?

Abe 52:38

I think our scope of practice, it's so broad, like I often explain to patients who are like, scared in my office because they think I'm gonna give them a stroke or something is, and they've come in for a sore ankle, uh, but it's like, you can have like, Like, and I mean it respectfully, but the crack, crack three days a week for your whole life, or you can have some of the highest level docs I've ever met in my life in the world of function and treatment and diagnostics and that. So I think the scope for me is, is really funky because there's some docs out there that I don't feel are, are, are doing a ton of good. Great things with, with the knowledge they're using.

Mathias 53:13

Um, if you had to choose one ethnic food category to eat for the rest of your life, what would it be?

Abe 53:19

I was trying to find a word. Uh, I called it Thai, Italian barbecue. Uh, well, like a mixture of Thai, Italian barbecue. I, uh, I love food so much. And I love to cook and all that sort of stuff too. So I honestly, I don't know what I do. I try to hybrid whatever you gave me so I could funk it out a little bit. But, uh, yeah, I really, it's a hard question. Cause I, I love, maybe if it was just one, I'd probably go to Italian just cause there's a good run there. But, uh, I love spice. I love the barbecue. I love all that stuff.

Mathias 53:50

Cool. Um, Okay, I might change this one a little bit, but initially it was, what is your one essential piece of recovery gear that you wish you had sooner, but I'll put, what is your favorite sleep tool that you have?

Abe 54:09

Rad question. Blackout blinds, if you can't sleep with a mask, because sometimes the masks are just annoying and you find you're tweaking them all the time, but light. Is really important to get rid of, um, with sleep, especially in the summer months where the days are super, super long and it can be really bright at 4 30 in the morning, almost. And so that piece to me is like, try to make your sleep hygiene as dark as you can get it, because if you can wake up and it's still. pretty pitch black in your room, but the alarm got you up or whatever, you can bank on you probably got a pretty good deep sleep. Um, it's interesting, even like the charging stations and stuff that have the fine little lights. Our bodies are so incredibly tuned to light that there's some people saying in the higher level of sleep science that even those little glow spots in your room, like if you have a power bar with a red little on and off switch, like put a piece of black electrical tape over it, like it starts to get neurotic But I'll say like, if I can wake up and feel super refreshed and ready to rock every day, that's, that's a cool tool. So blackout blinds aren't always the cheapest things, but you can also go to Walmart and buy the, like three of the little rubber buggers that you put those guys and spread them all out and pull them all down. You'll be pretty blacks. Um, but that is one, but in the day, once you're awake, please get light, please roll the blackouts up and see this thing called light. Cause it's good too.

Mathias 55:26

Um, do you have any special talents?

Abe 55:30

Actually, it was funny, I was asking Kath about this one. But I, uh, I'm pretty badass in an excavator. Like, everyone was like, an excavator? You can drive an excavator? But I used to, and maybe not the monsters that are pulling forests down, but, uh, I have done quite a bit of landscaping and that, and so I can, I can drive a tractor alright.

Mathias 55:47

That's probably the coolest answer I've ever gotten. Because me too. um, who's the most interesting person that you've ever talked to and why? And it can't be Thomas.

Abe 56:00

Okay, because I was gonna say Thomas is a pretty unique animal. Uh, it's funny, I've been really lucky I think in the last, I don't know, 10 years of even at courses and you run into this dog who's written six textbooks and you sit down and chat with them. So I don't know if I could put one on. My grandpa was one of my favorite people I've ever sat and chatted with and I was lucky enough that he was 91 when he finally packed her in but going commercial fishing with him and just the mornings of learning like what we're going to do today because the seas are going to come up and but we got to fish because we got to make our money and we got to do that so he was he was a super special human and always like just Probably. I think he stopped going to school in like grade six. I don't know how in grade six, you decide you've had enough, like you can write your name and read a bit. So you're good. But, uh, from a common sense and like a street sense, dude, he was one of the smartest, coolest people I've ever known. So if I, I'll take my grandpa and Thomas.

Mathias 56:59

Um, if you weren't a Cairo slash coach, what would you be doing?

Abe 57:04

Yeah, I think I definitely found my niche, but, uh, I would be something in sports med. I think like I've always kind of played around and I'm getting too old to go back and become a surgeon, but I think that would be a super cool gig. Like I'd love to get into some orthopedics and that kind of stuff, but, uh, I do it from the outside right now.

Mathias 57:23

And then, uh, last one is don't lie. What's your golf handicap?

Abe 57:27

Well, with little dudes in a busy life, I don't get to play as much, but. I've, I've played golf since I was a little dude, so I think I'm maybe around a four something right now, five, but I would love to play more because I feel like if I have one bit of high performance, maybe it's golf. Like I'm okay at golf.

Mathias 57:46

I want to, I want to go back to when we were talking about the interesting people that you know, what are some of your favorite questions to ask when you meet an interesting person?

Abe 57:57

Yeah.

Mathias 57:57

That's an awesome question.

Abe 57:59

Uh, maybe like how, how'd you get to here? Like I think the path and the journey paints really neat pictures for people like, like they could go through all kinds of experiences in their lives to, to be the person they are. And I think the journey a lot of the times builds so, so much about. like who someone is. Um, I like even what you guys are doing. Like, I love this style of just like, yeah, this person has this expertise or specialty, but let's throw like what their food is because you get to kind of like get a more idea in, in who they are. Like, I, I've often at courses, like if they have a social, say one of the nights, it'll be like, let's just bring everyone totally outside the course, but let's just hang for a bit. And, and it's fun to grab a pint and sit beside somebody that's like, man, I've like, I've read tons of your studies or I've, I really like following what you're up to and what you're doing. And, and again, I just think learning like your brain. It's not muscular but it's a, it's a real cool piece of meat between our ears that if you can keep feeding it stuff to learn with, um, and special unique people have those things that I want to know about. And I think that's what makes them those people.

Mathias 59:07

Yeah. So then on your journey, what is something that you used to believe about volleyball or physiotherapy that you no longer do?

Abe 59:19

Yeah. I think there's tons in the rehab settings of stuff like, like stretching a low back every day is this amazing thing to do. And it's actually a terrible thing to do. You need to create stability at a low back and those kinds of things. But I think also too in volleyball land, like I always used to think you had to have. Nine of the coolest drills in the world for the 90 minute practice. And it's like, we're just rolling the drills. Like the hamsters is on the wheel with a, like, just never going to stop because it's like, it's super intense. There's so much going on. And now I've completely realized like two to three drills that are. focused and really specialized to what we want to work on at that time, have far more value than the hamster wheel. So those are things that I've changed because I always thought it had to be this, like make them engage, make them engage with so much going on that they, they can't fade out. But I, but I'll often, and that's how I'll coach with our guys. I'll say like, we'll do a serving pass or not even a pregame serving pass, like a serve pass training and practice. And these guys will serve and pass for two, two and a half hours. And no one's bored. It's like, you don't get bored of that. Like in men's volleyball, you need to be good at both those things. And so like, if you guys get bored, maybe you are hamsters because it's like, you could, you'd be able to focus for 30 minutes to do some serve and pass. And so, but sometimes I think the young athletes nowadays, we, we maybe are too needing stimulation. So I try to really use the focus part. Like I'll use that word a lot. Like, Hey guys, looks like we're losing focus. Like let's, let's dial it back in because it can be lost in that way.

Mathias 1:00:52

How do you, how do you speak to athletes about their mind and approaching games and competing?

Abe 1:01:00

Yeah, that's definitely something to us that I've sort of really tried to learn more over my time doing it. And just, I think to try to say, well, it worked for this guy, it's going to work for you. Doesn't always work. And, you know, in a lot of ways, I think the individual athlete is such a unique person. Person and you unique in their thoughts and their feelings and sort of to discredit it because it's a it's a game and they're so nervous that they're not feeling good. And it's like, the longer you do something more, it's like, really, you're still that nervous, like, like, it's just a volleyball game. And but sometimes I try to bring perspective to it too, because it is just a volleyball game. It's like, people going through chemotherapy is really hard. Like volleyball is not that hard, like it's like we get to play volleyball, like it's a, it's a rad sport at a high level and you get to play with your boys, like it's, there's harder things in life to really be super stressed about and I even say like stress sometimes can be awesome. It means you're alive and it means you care. And, uh, but like trying to work through that and navigate it and see the uniqueness of each athlete and. And really just trying to support where they're at, I think is a big piece. Cause some guys are stone and they can handle anything. It's like, they're a brick and then other ones who are really more fragile in the way of understanding what they, what they're going through, I think is, is what you need to do. Cause solid brain people in those atmospheres are very different than someone that has the emotion. And if he can help them out, I feel like it's a massive piece to their career because that's the practice player. That's the best player in practice every week. And then games come and they have three skid marks in their undies before they even get on the court. And it's like, buddy, like this, like, I don't know how, but let's try to find a practice mentality. So you can go out there and really do what you can do. Cause I've watched it way more than I've seen you play games. And so, uh, those are bits to that.

Mathias 1:02:48

I love that. That was, that was me for a long time. Yeah. I used to fear game day because it was like a test. There was, it was an opportunity to fail basically publicly. And by the end of my career, I got over that and I crave game day, crave the pressure, all that stuff. So my coach here, my

Jesse 1:03:10

coach here in France had a really cool quote a couple weeks ago, because you could tell there's some guys on our team who's experiencing the same things. And he's like, game day is a celebration. It's a celebration of the last five days. It's a celebration of the season and like, like he's the opposite of Thomas, like breakfast, serving pass, bus ride to the gym. It's all fun. Music bumping, there should be joking, there should be like, it's all fun. It's a celebration. Yeah, cool. I think it's a cool, yeah, it's a, it's obviously different, different than Thomas, which is not a bad thing, I don't think.

Abe 1:03:39

Yeah, oh, totally.

Jesse 1:03:42

But yeah, he said it was a celebration. I thought that was so cool.

Abe 1:03:45

Yeah. Yeah. A birthday every five days, baby.

Mathias 1:03:51

I got one last piece here on the, on the body side of things for younger athletes in club volleyball. What are some things they can start doing? now that will pay dividends as they grow old. And also I want to hear about the arguments for strength versus flexibility versus mobility. What are the components there?

Abe 1:04:16

Love it. I'm so glad you brought that piece up because it was something that I feel like is It's, it's our culture of like this. I joke with everybody like this quest for flexibility. It's like, what are you looking for? Like, like every almost North American you'll ever run into, if you tell them you're stiff, they say stretch. And it's like, how long you been stretching for? Uh, 13 years. How's it going? Uh, tight as your floor. It's like, okay, well, if you do something, anything for 13 years, you'll probably succeed. Or it's not the right thing for you. Um, I often will say like stiffness in the best. Neuroscience, the best MSK science is 98 percent of it isn't because it needs stretched. It's because it's either neurologically inhibited. So something's protecting a tissue, like a low back spasm is that your brain says, I don't like where your spine's at right now, man. Like you're, you've got a disc inflammation, you got a facet joint problem, you got something going on. So I'm going to lock you down because your spine is a pretty important piece of machinery. So that's sort of stiffened for safety reasons. Or if a tissue is weaker, And it's being used a ton. It's going to stiffen because it has to be safe for us to still produce movement. Because if every tissue that got tired or weak just turned into a jellyfish, well, half the world would lay on the ground. Because there's no functional capacity in tissue that just packs it in. So stiffness is what happens. But I've never met one human on earth, and I've done my practice for 17 years, and I've worked high performance for 20 years. 15 of those maybe and but I've never met anyone to get stronger by stretching I've never met one human if you guys have met them i'd love to meet them because that's pretty freaky But this focus on stretch and stretch and stretch and stretch and stretch. It's like well then i'm always stiff It's like because you don't need to freaking stretch you're not stiff because you're freaking tight in the way of like needing long like Lunge holds to get your hip flexor to really let go it's like But You probably need some stability in your pelvis and core and then your Hip flexors and stuff will start to settle down for you. So Or, or the young, like, 12 year old girl volleyball club kid who's a stud, she gets 80 sets a match and she's already made out of, like, overcooked spaghetti. She's so loose and so noodley and so much range. But every time her shoulder gets sore, mom and dad, coach, friend of mom and dad's, oh, stretch it out. Stretch that already noodle. Get, get it looser, get that thing so it almost dislocates every time she hits it. It's like, no, you sucker, you need to stabilize that shoulder. You need to create quality in the joint to be able to handle that. And so, or is your demand you need to be an NHL goalie and you have to be able to do the splits? It's like, okay, that, that's a high level of, of flexibility. But if your socket in your acetabulum isn't deep enough to allow you to do a split, you're, you're never going to get there. You're ramming a bone into a bone and saying, Hey bone, let me go more. It's like, the bone's going to say, screw you, dude. You're going to have a really sore hip and sore groin. And that's your day. But keep ramming it in, like get a machine like Bruce Lee had that like Rips your legs apart and see how that goes like there's so much to it And I have a ton of passion in this because it's so ridiculous like like what is your demand like Jess? You want a super high velocity shoulder? Don't stretch it. Please don't stretch it you don't need flexibility and you need the ability to harness speed and power and Generate a really cool biomechanic and you'll get a rattlesnake tongue But if you stretch it every day, you're gonna get a drunk rattlesnake that can't even move And so it's those things that you can create just such better quality tissue with that. And so in little kids, you don't need them doing 200 pound front squats, but if you can have them doing body weight squats, doing functional lunges in all sorts of planes, having them play a million things, so their bodies get really accustomed to moving. Like, I don't care what the movement is. Like, a lot of people say, woah yeah, right on, Abe. Thanks for all this information. This is super cool. Like, what should I do? I'm like, move, move yourself, get your ass out of your seat, and move around. And then we can specialize you to where you want to be in the way of if it's a sport or an athlete that's sort of looking for specific stuff. But in little kids, these ones who are like, Four and they're going to be Sydney Crosby. It's like, sorry, four. You don't need to just glue yourself to your hockey skates. You need to learn how to move in lots of ways. Cause if you look at all the best athletes in the world, they've played more than one sport in their life. And I think that part of it is, is, is in young athletes anyways, way too overlooked. And body weight, they carry their body all day long. They can handle body weight exercise. Like you don't load up a four year old with a massive sumo squat, but you could do like, hey, these little 10 to 14 year old volleyball kids, like, why can't we do some body weight work or some band work or some light exercise load to create tolerance in their tissue to be able to handle the hours and hours and hours that they love playing? Like that's another thing. Pain sucks because it Beats up that enjoyment for kids to play. It's like, and so coach is just doing, yeah, we're going to do hitting warm up for the first 45 minutes of practice. It's like, whoa, right on coach. Like you just torched your whole team. And like, it's one component to volleyball, but if your team could serve and pass better, they'd probably wouldn't have to hit for 45 minutes because their, their quality of set and everything's a lot better that way. So I think Conditioning in a really sound, solid, multi joint way in little ones is a really rad way to create a cool, late teenager and then a really cool, functional, mobile, um, bit. And I try to say to every patient, if I can give you a gift for the rest of your life, it's to be mobile and strong. Cause it and mobile doesn't mean again, whipping the splits out, but I don't never need, I never need to do the splits. Like if someone, if I'm in the splits, phone the ambulance, cause I need probably some hip surgery. But at the end of the day, it's like, I can do a pretty good lunge, pretty good width. I can run, I can jump, I can do those things. It's like, cool, that's what I want to do. I don't need to do the splits. So what's your capacity and can you build in that capacity, lots of strength. And quality nervous system and all those bits like there's so many parts to it that make you such a better human at the end of the day, because if you can be strong and mobile every decade of your life, and now you're this kick ass 94 year old, that's a sick life like that, or you want to be the drooler who's 62 that's never moved, and their bodies are just failing because they haven't done anything to create quality in their life of movement. Um.

Mathias 1:10:50

Man, that's, that's one of the reasons why I think farming is one of the greatest occupations because you never stop moving. Like the amount of 80 some year old farmers that I've met that are still running up and down grain bins and running to shut off augers. And like, they're just always moving, even just climbing up into the tractor cab, like, yeah, for sure. You can sit for 12 hours, but you're still in and out of the tractor cab. You're still on the ground rolling under implements. Like it's, it's crazy, the amount of. Functional mobility that some of these older people have, like slowly, slowly podcast into a farming podcast, every

Abe 1:11:33

episode,

Mathias 1:11:34

he's moving the needle.

Jesse 1:11:35

Um, that, uh, that made me think of two things. Actually, I was listening to a podcast with TJ DeFalco. And he's in Japan right now, and they're asking him about how they train or what the difference is between North America and there. And he's like, they don't, they don't lift heavyweight. No one's doing a 200 kilogram back squat. Like it's all these sandbags, weird rotational, like, see if you can balance on this leg with the sandbag on that leg and like, it's all, it's like exactly what you're talking about. And he was saying like, there's no one in the volleyball world that is faster than the Japanese. No one. No, they're so fast. Totally. And they don't have huge legs. They're not monsters. But they're so quick. They're so explosive. They're so balanced and it makes total sense. Cause you're matching what you want to perform with the way you train. I thought like that was super

Abe 1:12:29

cool. It's incredible. And that's exactly right. Like I think that's where high performance is going. It's like the old school, like lay on a bench, press table and just try to mangle as much weight into the sky. It's like, I've, if you're an athlete and you're laying on your back and pushing heavy stuff in the sky, you're a weird athlete. Cause I've never seen that in any sport. If you're in football and you're getting mowed over every time you got to push the big dude off you, you're probably not going to play much longer cause you're not that good at your sport. So it's like, yeah. Creating these functional qualities where there's more pieces moving. And like you said, Jess, with like joint capsule mechanics and like when you put someone off balance and put a load on them in different ways, it's like even the ability to jump from a block to a transition to attack, it's like, if you're balanced and your nervous system, super high end, it's like you land and you're gone. Whereas the plug who has to figure out how to land, right. And then, Oh no, I moved this foot. It's like, you're, you're so slow. And so. the capacity of your tissue is brutal. And so, and the nervous system has the biggest control. It's the master computer and a nervous system won't give you anything unless it has the integrity and stability of the tissues to do it. And it's just, it's such a unique, cool complex where that's where like even some of the, the one day of this course, we did all these crazy positions with full range movements and we got banned on a thousand times. And a guy pushing a foam roller into your back and you're trying to maintain these perfect postures and it's like that's frickin hard. And but it's and there's like you've got a a two pound band here and you're trying to like hold it all and you look like a bit like a circus clown. But. When you get it all sort of thought out, it's like, you know, how much input was going through all that tissue and how much your nervous system had to recruit like every muscle in the neighborhood to do things like that. And that's where at the elite end of athlete, if you can start, they call it their intrinsic strength model. Like they're really small muscles at those end range motions. Like now all of a sudden you got bad ass little guys that are really neurologically dialed. You're, you're a freaky freak. And, uh, I think that's where it is going is neat that that's what they're doing over there because the Japanese too, they're world leaders in neuroscience and neuro world leaders in that. So like the old school, like, yeah, just lift as heavy as you can. It's like, okay, well, if you're going to be a power lifter, probably what you got to do. But I don't know many power lifters and I don't think it's going to create these alien volleyball players that are really slow and three 30. Like it just doesn't make it make it work that way.

Mathias 1:15:03

Mm hmm. What is the role of, uh, just pure muscle mass? Because that has to be a, uh, component.

Abe 1:15:15

Yeah, and mass of tissue, like I think if you just mean true mass, like if you will go from a 210 pound guy to a 390 guy of muscle mass, it's like that bulk is gonna make you slow. But you have a ton of ability to generate power and force in a really small window of movement. But I think in a volleyball athlete, you have to be a hybrid of explosive power, the ability to generate speed and strength in a really quick fashion. You don't need a big engine in your cardio because you don't have enough rally time to need a big engine that way. And so that more aerobic, Capacity doesn't have to be super high where the anaerobic bit could be there. And I think even learning more and more at the neuroscience level of what strength conditioning is all about, it's like, it's to refine your nervous system because your nervous system is what makes your muscles go. And so if you can do a heavier one rep max than the volleyball guy beside you. Your nervous system capacity is higher because your tissue tolerance was able to do it because your nervous system said go ahead, lift that, I don't know, 250 kilo deadlift, but but that bombardment to the nervous system is really interesting science because it's like there's so much demand on it to be able to do one rep. Max's, but you don't do run max every two weeks. Cause it's like, Oh yeah, no, I want to fry the nervous system. It's one of those ones. It's sort of a staging in the nervous system to get it to have those. So I'm not a big, you don't, you don't ever lift really heavy. Cause I feel like if we want to retrain the nervous system to handle the ability to do a lot of things. Uh, a one rep max is pretty, pretty rad at that, but it isn't a functional exercise. It's one that gets our nervous system super heightened. And that's why after a one rep max, you're over your, your workouts over your workout might've been a 25 minute warmup. You went over and you pulled and that's your workout because you don't need 18 of them because your nervous system's in the deep fryer after that. Now you're going to be injured. You're going to have a whole bunch of things. things, but there is some interesting science around what that creates from a nervous system to muscle relationship sort of thing. So, yeah, again, we could have a hundred podcasts about this stuff. There's so much cool things.

Jesse 1:17:30

Do you do the strength and conditioning programming for your team?

Abe 1:17:34

Yeah, I, that's what I did actually through Cairo school. I, I got my ICSCS, like my sort of heavy hitter strength conditioning, uh, certification. And that's why I love that secondary stuff. That's where I think even where there's a strength conditioning component to some courses, I love, I'll hang for that stuff. Cause it's just cool to see what they're doing at the high end. So, yeah. And I just think I really wanted a specialized volleyball, like, especially the in season program. Uh, I don't want them doing a bunch of random crap that they're, Someone who doesn't really even know volleyball is going to hand them because it is so sport specific that I want, um, and I want us to be able to handle, like I said, at the start of this, the load that they, they need through training, um, and doing a bunch of random lifts that fry them is not going to help.

Jesse 1:18:18

Well, it was, it was interesting cause TS and I were working out at the, uh, what's it called? T in Calgary? CSI. The CSI gym, which is the Canadian Sporting Institute gym. And TS and I are looking around and like, you can tell that we play. Uh, what was the word you used? It was a terrible story. I don't remember anything about it. A technical sport. You can tell we play a technical sport. Like, they're absolutely monsters in that gym. Like the bobsledders and the whatever. They're huge. And we're like, we're feeling pretty good. We're in the offseason. We're feeling strong. We're feeling big. And we are like dwarfs in front of these guys. But it is because volleyball is very, it's very, Um, specific in the way you have to train. And a lot of people don't understand that a lot, I would say, especially university club, like they know squat bench lunge.

Abe 1:19:10

Totally. Yeah, you couldn't be more right. I think that was one of the neatest things for me as such a function body geek. The Olympic Village. Like, it is the freaks of the freaks. There's 15, 000 of them running around. But you're like, that's a gymnast, that's a track athlete, that's a runner, like a marathoner, that's a powerlifter. Like, and the genetic makeup of them is truly their sport. Like, like at that level, cause that's the elite of the elite of the elite. And so genetics and, and, and body style and that, like, there's no six, eight, two 40 gymnasts, but there's some six, eight, two 40 stud volleyball guys that are like that physical or, and so it's, it's really unique to see that part of the highest, highest performance of like just the body type and you're so right. Jess like volleyball is such a unique sport. Like, um, if you, well, you jump like basketball, it's like, no, you don't. No, basketball doesn't max jump like, like as an outside attacker, like 30, 40 times a game. Um, they max jump for a rebound every few minutes kind of thing. So it's, yeah, our, our sport, we don't run,

Jesse 1:20:18

there's no contact. There's no human contact. Yeah, exactly. There's very little things like it.

Abe 1:20:23

Totally. And the overhead side of it. Like, that's why shoulder is such a unique animal in, in our sport because you have this massive acceleration and then you got to slow it down. And so that's where, like, they're, besides throwing, like, those are really the only two sports, like, that, that have that really shoulder scapular mechanism that, It's not humans weren't designed to do it like there's a bone in the way, but it's like you find a way to do it because we're so dynamic and so it's it's really interesting that aspect of our sport to that just the true demand on the shoulder but the body's got to do all the other bits to get the shoulder there to be able to get to the ball or or whatever we're doing

Mathias 1:21:04

so we're building you keep using the word resilience

Abe 1:21:08

Tissue tolerance or resilience? Tissue tolerance. Yeah. So for building

Mathias 1:21:11

that, if you only had, let's say 10 exercises to give an athlete to make sure they were building that resilience for a long season, what would you pick?

Abe 1:21:25

I would definitely pick some of the Olympic lifts, like I think, and they need to know how to do it. So if we're working with a trained athlete, like somebody who can do a good hang clean, can do maybe a snatch, that they can get their shoulders overhead, but again, the explosive dynamic of being able to do it. I think there has to be a focus on, a balance, like we're doing single leg, like Bulgarian split squats or something like that. And maybe the, the elevated leg is on something that's a little bit more unstable. Like the, you got a bow suit that's sitting there. So it's, it's creating something that's allowing the tissue to have to adapt in a balance, but plus in a load. And I think how we would have to periodize it too is like, I would want you to have some periods, maybe post season or like when you're coming into season where you're going to do heavy for a little bit just again to spike that nervous system and really get the, the big groups but the old school like lay down and just push stuff up. It doesn't make a lot of sense even like the military press heavy. It's like the volleyball doesn't weigh that much, and like repetitive. Rushing your joint is not rad, especially for something where the cough and everything has to come around and do that intrinsically. I would say like scapular stabilization and that scapular shoulder kind of relationship. And like, there's lots of different exercises that would sort of hit that. But, um, yeah, the mid back scapular shoulder exercise world would be something I would hit for sure. Um, yeah. Squats, I like. I think squatting is definitely an exercise that you can play around with a little bit. Um, your loads and things are, and I would switch you up. You can have some front, you can have some back. Um, but multi joint again is another one that I don't want you doing isolated bicep preacher curls. Unless you're going to the bar tomorrow or something. But, uh, that, uh, that has no bearing on function. Uh, isolated single joint movements were designed for rehab really. Thank you. Or trying to look good in a white t shirt at a blue light. Um, but there's the, yeah, that aspect of, I think, again, if you can tie knees to shoulders into the exercise where all those joints in between get to be a part of it or stabilize, um, I would give you those. Uh, I haven't given you 10, but I think, I don't even know if I'd need 10. Um, Yeah, some the activation dynamic warm up piece to like if you can give any athlete a present It's being available to move once it's time to move and the only way to do that is to be dynamic and get some parts Moving before we need to make them be really explosive or really active

Mathias 1:24:05

lovely. Well, should we should we bring this thing home?

Jesse 1:24:10

And then we'll have you on for next week to do all the stuff we missed.

Abe 1:24:16

No, I'm happy to boys. Like even this is just, it's such a cool, fun thing to geek out and like to geek out with you three and getting to know you for as long as I have, it's a. It's, it's, it's fun. And I think for people that can listen, like there's lots of messages that, that we can, you can get out there that are like, wow, like I've been doing the wrong stuff for a long time. And, uh, and that's at the end of the day, the, the goal and, and everybody is like, let's max you out regardless of what you're, Goals or demands are it's like let's make you better than you were before you listen to it.

Mathias 1:24:48

Usually our last question Abe is what would be your advice to your younger self? Knowing what you know now

Abe 1:24:56

I think, I think I've kind of live it, but like take pride in what you do and, and like, never, never deal, never try to be medium. Like I am I staying in that as like a steak maybe should be medium, but in your life you should never be medium. Like the world's too medium now. Like everyone's cool with like, just be average cause you're not. You're not bad if you're average, it's like, not bad sucks. Like, how will it be kick ass, like in so whatever you do, like, I don't care. Like if you're going to learn, learn, learn something that you want to learn about, but to just be a plug that's low average medium, but you're not, uh, you're not bad is like, yeah, it's, it sucks. You get run one run. I always say that life and if you wake up one day and you're 83 and you hated 81 years of your life like what a waste of life but if you could wake up and be like man I had like 42 bad days in 82 years it's like that's a kick ass life and uh and yeah move through your life too that'd be my other thing is keep moving love it all right cool boys

Mathias 1:26:03

absolutely thanks for coming on abe I think that wraps up episode number 25. Of the pits pro podcast. Thanks everyone for listening. Signing off.

1:26:16

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