The 3am Spiral | Business | Mental Health, Competitors & Trolls

This episode is different.

No product launches. No tech talk. Just Wayne, a camera, and something that founders and creators don’t say out loud often enough.

After 22 years building E-Stim Systems, Wayne still has moments where his brain constructs a perfect, logical argument for why everything is about to fall apart. A competitor appears. A troll hits. The orders go quiet. And the spiral starts.

In this episode Wayne talks honestly about what triggers it, what the spiral actually feels like, the coping mechanisms that work (and the ones that sort of do), a near-miss that almost ended the business, and why — after 22 years — there are still 34 new product ideas in the notebook.

This is about male mental health, running a small business, and why the spiral is lying.

In this episode:

• The 3am panic — what it actually feels like
• Competitors, trolls, Reddit 
• Why E-Stim Systems will never compete on price
• The cash fear — coming very close to the end
• Plan A through F and when planning becomes its own problem
• The Trading Standards story — the spiral is lying
• The little black book and why writing things down works
• A friend Wayne lost, and why he’s still thinking about it
• Why a single good review can break the whole spiral
• “We don’t have the sole right to create e-stim”

If any of this resonated, Wayne would genuinely love to hear from you.

Find E-Stim Systems on social media @estimsystems or visit https://estim.store

I Make Sex Toys is also on Facebook — search I Make Sex Toys Podcast.

If you’re going through something harder than a bad business day, please talk to someone.

Samaritans (UK): 116 123 — free, confidential, 24 hours a day.

Or reach out to Wayne directly on social media. The offer stands.

Links

• E-Stim Systems: https://estim.store
• YouTube: https://youtube.com/@estimsystems
• Instagram / X / Threads: @estimsystems
• Facebook: facebook.com/estimsystemsltd
• Podcast: imakesextoys.buzzsprout.com
• Samaritans: samaritans.org | 116 123

"I Make Sex Toys" is the personal podcast of Wayne Allen, the Director of E-Stim Systems. We have been creating ElectroStimulation Technology since 2004, Find out what really happens behind the doors of a specialist sex toy company.

Please Note the content of these podcasts are not designed to be Explicit or Erotic but we may discuss adult topics and therefore these podcasts are not suitable for children or those of a nervous disposition. You have been warned.

If you are interested in E-Stim Systems the company, or any of our products, have a look at https://estim.store

Transcript

Competitors Trigger The Fear Spiral

Why We Don’t Compete On Price

Social Media Trolls And Expectations

Coping Tools And Asking For Help

SPEAKER_00 0:01

Recording Get yourself comfortable, he says. Hello everyone, this is Wayne here from I Mate Sex Toys and also East Im Systems. And today's gonna be a little bit different. This is a sort of podcast stroke vlog, but it's something that I think gives me an opportunity to say a few things that have been cropping up recently. One thing a lot of creators, small businessmen, one thing we don't talk about is issues that come up which have got nothing to do with the business. Or I rephrase it. They've got everything to do with the business, but nothing to do with the day-to-day running, as in getting orders out the door. It's the mental issues. It's the 3 a.m. wake up at night panicking and going, oh my god, it's all going to crash, it's all going to burn. Now, we generally don't talk about this because it's not the sort of thing. I mean, male mental health is something that nobody talks about. It's something that we all suffer from, and I think it's something that we need to talk about, and it's something that I think I need to talk about because I am a creator, I run a business, I happen to run a business for the last 22 years. I run East M Systems, it's reasonably successful. We're known around the world. In fact, we've just come back from Las Vegas, and this is some aspects that people don't really see, and sometimes it's down to the way people deal with other people. So I thought I'd be a little bit different and actually just talk to a camera. Now I'm going to do my little intro because I can do this as a podcast. I'm not in the studio today, and that's deliberate choice. I wanted to talk about something that doesn't really belong in a studio. It's a bit more personal than that. Now I've been making Eastern products for the last 22 years, and in that time I've had moments, quite a few of them, where I've been completely convinced it was all about to fall apart. A competitor launches, a troll hits, the orders go quiet, and your brain does this thing where it constructs a perfectly logical argument for why you are finished. And I wanted to talk about that, what it actually feels like, what helps, what doesn't, and why somehow there are still 34 new product ideas in my notebook. So here we go. Now you'll notice I'm not in the studio, I'm in the playroom, which is where we test some of our products. Why am I in the playroom? Because I wanted it to be a bit more personal and not in the studio setting. So yeah, I've got a little microphone here, but I don't have a big microphone. I've been doing East In for the last 22 years, and in that time I've had moments where I've almost convinced myself that everything is just going to fail. It can be a comment from a customer, it can be orders dropping down a little bit, it can be a competitor brings out a new product, and then suddenly your mind creates this argument to go, that's it. Everything's gonna fail, everything's gonna die, and the business is just gonna go complete down the tube. And to a certain extent, I've tried to generate some coping mechanisms which sometimes work for me, sometimes it takes two or three days to get over something, and I still have to work through that. It it's just the nature of me. But I think possibly by talking about it, by talking to a camera, I'm talking to you. Maybe that's gonna help me, and maybe it's gonna help you because everyone these days is a creator. We all have issues in our lives that crop up which we don't have to deal with, and unfortunately, male mental health is one of those things that people we have big issues talking about it. Now, so what sort of triggers it? I've got my little notes here. You just chuck them on the floor. So what yeah, what triggers it? What's triggered it recently? New products. Not necessarily my new products, but new products from other manufacturers. You know, almost looking at them going, oh shit, why didn't I think of that? Well, actually, I did think of that, and I've been working on it since 2024. Why does it take us so long to produce something? Well, two of the major manufacturers we deal with are both based in China. Well, I'll rephrase that. One is based in China, one manufactures in China, and they have the benefit of having this massive team potentially of engineers and people who can bring something to market very quickly. With us, with EastTEM systems, it's down to me and a couple of others. We are very knowledgeable about what we play with our products, but we still have to work through the process of how do we get this to work, how do we get it to work reliably, how does it work within our play? Is it usable in a play situation? We're constantly looking at new stuff. So when a competitor brings out a new product, yeah, my first thought is, oh shit, is this going to affect us? And then your brain gets into that whole, oh, it's it's gonna wipe the market out, particularly with certain Chinese manufacturers where their pricing is very, very Chinese. And that's not a racist comment, it's just the fact that Chinese pricing tends to their build costs are lower because they're working in China, they're closer to the manufacturing base. Let's face it, all the components that I use come from Taiwan and China. We don't have manufacturers of ICs in the UK, so we've got to import it. If you're manufacturing in China, you've already got that basis. But we like the fact we manufacture in the UK because it brings us closer to the product. There is a big push at the moment for things to be Bluetooth and app developed. And people have said to us, Well, you're a bit behind because other people have brought these out. Yes, they have. And other people have brought out devices that we feel are overly complex, have issues, massively expensive, and also massively cheap. And you start to go, well, I can't compete for that. And I do have an adage, I will never try to compete on price. I can't compete on price. And anyone who tries to compete on price, the person who's going to win is the one who's got the largest wallet because you just can undercut someone. What we compete on is functionality, benefits of the product, lifetime guarantee, the fact that we use the product so our advice and our experience tends to be a lot more attuned to what you could possibly want rather than, oh, look, there's another cheap box off the shelf and just go and buy it. And it's worked for us up to this point in time, and hopefully it'll work for us in the future. But so that's the negative side. But the positive side is potentially it expands the market. You sometimes forget that when you're manufacturing something, especially small-scale artisan craft, although not really craft, but that sort of you know what I mean. You forget the world is a very, very big place. Yeah, we've been selling into the UK market for 20 years. Do I think we've saturated the UK market? No, I don't, because we still see new people who've never tried ESTIM. They want to try products. We've just come back from the States. Again, massive market. I mean massive. So all these products are actually doing is expanding that market because it's giving people more choice. Many years ago, when we started, there were effectively two or three choices. You had a tens unit, which it sort of works, but it's a tens unit. Or you had something like the Erostech, which is a great box, but still massively overpriced, hasn't been developed beyond the point where it it came out, and most people like it because of its name. It's a bit like buying a Rolls-Royce. You buy a Rolls-Royce because of the name rather than because of it, it's comfortable to drive and things like that. And more recently, we've had competitors come in from China, DG Labs, who've created great little boxes, but they seem to have sort of gone in a particular direction, which is not the same direction as us, which is great. So it allows us to have that element of we can be different, we can look at what other people do and look at the response that we get from other people. And yeah, we we buy all the boxes, we know what all these boxes do, we know how they work, we take them apart. That I mean, if we didn't, we'd be stupid. So we know we look at them and go, okay, how do we improve on this? I don't sit there going, oh, how do I copy that? No, that's not how we operate. We talk about how do we improve something. Have they come up with a genuinely good idea that can be improved and then can be applied to the products that we make? And the answer is yes. Several times people have done that and we've looked and come up with our own twist on something. We've never copied. We've been accused of it, but let's face it, we're not the ones who create rubbery electrodes that all seem to be the same, probably because they all came out from the same factory. We have been copied, we know at least of two electrodes that have been copied, and somebody in Hong Kong has tried to copy our power box and then sell it at a massively deflated price. It's great until you want us to try and fix it for you, and it's not going to happen because obviously it's not our box. Yeah, they're breaking various laws in terms of copyright, but it's Hong Kong. It's pointless trying to pursue anyone out there. It just doesn't happen unless you're a massive multi-million pound company. All that does is really just drive us to be more creative with our own designs. Yeah, there is a point where if enough people copy something, you start to get defensive about it. So you put up these defensive blocks, or you just turn around and go, Nah, I'm not gonna do that anymore. And I mean, we do produce quite a lot of free software. Connect is free, we have to pay for the servers, there's no charge to use those. And those servers are based in Europe, they're not based in China, so you're not gonna send all your information to some strange place. Everything we do is around the community, around you, the user, to try and create that benefit. And we do see the benefit from it because we get feedback from people, and that's great. I can have days of pain where I just listen to people on social media slamming us because they can. They don't feel there's any responsibility, they just can say what they like, nobody's gonna punch them in the face, nobody's even to bother to reply to them, but they just seem to get out, get off on that. But then someone comes along and says, I bought your box last night and I played with my wife, and it was fantastic. And that really does give me a boost. It's fantastic. I mean, that sort of brings me into the next bit, which is social media. Now, here in the UK, there is a big push now because social media has been flagged up as causing issues with mental health for children because it's designed to be addictive, and yeah, I I agree. I mean, I pretty certain I catch myself doom scrolling as we call it, just flicking through TikTok or Twitter or whatever constantly. And yeah, I mean, I'm sitting here talking into a phone, so that's sort of phones are very useful for us and very powerful. Two things in my life, my phone and my little back notebook. And I'm just looking to see where my black notebook is, and it's over there. I'll go and get it in a minute. But social media is one of those really, really dangerous areas that we all know how bad it can be. We all see the rubbish that gets created, the trolls that get out there and just jump on anything. And we've had our side of that. I mean, we've been hit by that. It is well known that I do not go anywhere near Reddit. Reddit is the Moss Isley or the Wild West of social media because there is no responsibility there. People can create any handle they want, they can be anywhere in the world, and they can just sit there and just poke with a long stick, long-pointed stick, and constantly, constantly needle people. And they do. There's at least five or six people on Eastern forums who all they do is criticize. Every single thing they do is criticize, and then they'll hide behind they don't know what they're talking about, they'll hide behind. In fact, more recently, we had someone who used AI, there's AI again, to create a bunch of questions for us using and then the AI was hallucinating. It was like, if it goes over 80%, it is dangerous. No, a 2B is not dangerous if it goes over 80%. It can get uncomfortable, but it's not dangerous. We've been doing this 20 years. We know what the rules are, we know what is safe and what is not safe. And then you get someone who's been doing it for five minutes and turns around and goes, Yeah, yeah, I attach my nipples with my jump leads. It's perfectly safe. They don't know what they're talking about, blah, blah, blah. And then you get accused of you're only doing it because you're a business, you're trying to rip people off, trying to make money. Yeah, our products are expensive. I'm not gonna say they're not expensive, but we're working in the UK, we have UK staff who we pay a reasonable wage. These aren't riff-off products, and we're still supporting products that we made 22 years ago. You buy a series one, you can't buy a series one now, but if you had a series one from our original batches, we will still support it. Yes, I know you have to send it back to us. Unfortunately, shipping is getting more and more expensive every single day, and it's gonna get more expensive due to various wars because fuel prices are gonna go up. Unfortunately, it sometimes people's expectations are slightly skewed. The lifetime guarantee covers the power box, it covers the electrodes, it doesn't cover shipping it back to us, it doesn't cover the cables. So after four years, if your cable has failed, then I'm sorry, I'm not gonna cover that under the lifetime guarantee. But it doesn't mean that you then have the right to go on Reddit or other social media and tell everyone that we're a con merchant. And that happens. The problem is you write that and I see it, or my staff see it, which is even worse. I'm the boss of the company, I need to have a little bit of a thick skin to be able to deal with being the boss of a company. But what gives you the right to turn round and tell me that my staff are a bunch of charlatans or a con. When they come in every day, they sit down at their workbenches, they solder their PCBs together, they do the testing, we test as much as we can. I'm really sorry, but something has failed. And we then will do our best to solve that problem. That is our reputation, that is what we do. But you do have to get it back to us. If it's failed straight away, yes, of course we're gonna pay for it to get back. But no, we're not gonna send you out brand new products three-quarters of the way around the world until we know what was wrong with the first one. I'm not gonna stick a private jet to send you to California to go and pick a box up. And if you think that's silly, the answer is we have, admittedly, it was once, but somebody once did tell us we should get on a plane and deliver it to them. Sorry, it doesn't work that way. Where we are actually running a business. There does come a point where you just have to tell Ron and go, I can't do that. Sometimes people have this expectation that because they purchased a product, that gives them every single right in the world, including the one that gives them the right not to do anything because they didn't read the instructions or they didn't read the manual, didn't read the terms of the lifetime guarantee. It's really simple. It's a lifetime guarantee on the product, it's a lifetime guarantee on the repairs. You still got to get back to us, and we will then do our best to repair it. But we will do our best to try and solve it. But it doesn't help if you then go on social media and come out with this load of drivel that hurts. I mean, really, really hurts. The worst time for me is the weekends. I actually try and stay away from social media at weekends because if I see something on a Saturday morning, I'll stew about it until Monday. That's my weekend shot because you decided to go onto social media. Sometimes actually, it's fun because I get the opportunity to reply, and you'll almost guarantee that whoever posts on social media, they do not give you the whole truth. They'll give you their side of that, but they won't tell you what we've actually said, they won't tell you what we've actually offered. So they produce this skewed result. But the benefit of social media is we if we see it, we do get the generally get the opportunity to to reply and go, I think your recollection of that was not quite the same. And then it's a case of well, who looks the fool? You or me? Who knows? Other fears that have cropped up orders drying up. Now, orders drying up is a really bizarre one because that happens weekly. You have a good day and you have a bad day. I'll look at the orders and go, oh, we're doing really well. And then I'll next day I'll look at the orders and like two people have come in today, and it's like, oh, it's all gone stop. Then you go and start checking the website to make sure the website's working and make sure that Google hasn't decided to block you. And that's just you get used to after a while. I've stopped looking really. I keep a general eye. Running out of cash. Now, for a lot of small businesses, this is one of my pet things, is you run a cash flow, which is basically the cash that I have in the business to pay people. A lot of people who are making stuff, well, cats just appeared. One of the problems that seems to occur is they'll take the money for the order, and then they'll take a money for another order, and then take a money for another order, and they'll be using that money to pay for the stock for the products for the next order. And then three months down the line, they run out of money. Now we've never actually done that. We've always financed the business internally, we've always had the money within that, but it has come close. I mean, probably oh, we were probably about three or four years old, and this was when we were initially in Winter, which was one of the units we used to have many years ago, business unit. And I'd sent Mick and Jen out to a show in Germany, and it got to the stage where we had enough money to pay the wages and the show, and that was it. If we didn't get anything coming in in the next few days, we were going to run out of money. I could have probably borrowed money, but that was quite uh that was probably the closest we ever came. Luckily, the show turned out to be reasonable, despite the fact I had to send out by DHL a banner stand because they'd forgotten to take it with them. But we survived that. That's the nature of running a business. But luckily, my wife who does the accounts, every so often she'll tell me, look, you do actually have more money in the business than we think, we've got stock on the shelf. So the money issue is less of an issue. Fundamentally, what happens is my first reaction when anything like this happens is panic. Now I don't go screaming around the office, although I do sometimes get a bit angry. And then it's depression. And then I think it it's trying to then start to come cope with it and trying to come up with coping mechanisms. Sleeping on it, actually, strange enough, is quite a good coping mechanism. But equally, I I do the right, let's let's can we plan our way out of this? What's plan A? What's plan B? What's plan C? And that sometimes isn't great either because you suddenly discover that you've put plan E, D, E, and F, and now you're back to square one because you're coming up with the worst possible consequences. This possibly stemmed the first time we were doing a big show, we were doing erotica, and the week before erotica, and I mean this was a big show, this was a big investment for us. It was everything was going into this show. And the week before, I get a phone call from Trading Standards. Now, Trading Standards in the UK is an organization that looks at businesses from time to time and checks you're working as a business properly, and you're not breaking any rules. And I get this phone call out of the blue, and trading standards are like, we'd like to come and visit. Okay, why? Can't talk about that, we'd like to come and visit. And it's like, oh shit. And then what you do is you go and look up on Google, worst thing you could possibly do. It's like work looking at medical issues. You go on Google and you discover all their powers and all the things they can do and what they look at. And I shit myself, figuratively speaking. I thought that was the end of the company. They're gonna find something bureaucratically minor, and we're gonna get screwed. And guess what? The day came, they turned up, oh hello, we're just introducing ourselves. That was it. A couple of conversations, they were happy with what we did, they were happy with how we did it. A couple of conversations about things that the challenges in running businesses, and they were happy. And that's all that was probably the first big thing that heart attack moment where I suddenly realised that actually maybe it's not as bad as you might think it was. Doesn't stop me thinking it, because at the end of the day, my brain immediately latches onto something and starts going into nth degrees. It's it's it's the spiral logic. That's what I've written on my notes here. Other coping mechanisms, writing things down. I have a little black book, which is ah, this is how close it is to me. This, this is my little black book. This is maybe I'll give you a that's content, more content. That incidentally is the slider. I know this, if you're listening to the audio version of this, you can't see this, but this is my little back notebook with the first version or one of the versions of the slider, which is going to be launched very soon. In fact, by the time this podcast is out, you might have seen it. But it has been mentioned a couple of times on various live streams. But I have this magic little black book and I write everything down. One, it allows me to have that record, it takes stuff out of my brain. It's a bit like if anyone you've seen Harry Potter, where the the wizard uses his wand to basically pull memories out and store them. That's what I use my little black book for. Because if I've written it down, I'm not going to forget it because it's written down. Unless you write it down in such a way that you forget what you actually it was for. So you just write a word or something. But this lives with me. The reason it's a soft one, this is a mold scheme, so these are quite posh. But I like a soft one like this. It's not hardcover because it means it can live in my pocket, it lives by the side of the bed. So those 3 a.m. panks also sometimes those 3 a.m.'s I'll wake up and suddenly come up with an uh up with an idea and screen. Dribble it down, and that's what happens probably more often than the 3am panics. Writing it down works really well for me. Or typing it out if I've got my phone, and then I just type reams of drivel, especially if I'm tired. So I try and avoid that. Talking to people sort of helps. The problem is you're always mentally going, but they don't really understand. I mean, this is this classic: you can't understand how a dancer feels on opening night because you're not a dancer. You can't understand how a racing driver feels when he crashes his racing car because you're not a racing driver. You can't understand how the head of Eastern Systems feels when he's getting doom and gloom because he's seen troll posts on Reddit. You can't understand that because you're not that person. There's always that thing in the back of your head. However, you're still going to think that. You're still going to do that. And I'm lucky I've got people in the company. I've got my wife, I've got my engineer, I've got Kay who does the sales side of things. So I can always come up with things. Kay knows me, knows that I come up with these panic ideas or panic issues and then sort of settles things down. Thank you, Kay, for that. Kaz does the same, although she's a bit more close to me, so she does the wifely things. But I talk to other people, Ian and Rachel, very good friends of ours. And I will say, I mean, this is basically about mental health. Please, please, if you do feel you're getting to a certain stage, please talk to someone. If you're a veteran, there are various veteran societies out there. If you're a student, if you're if you're anyone, go and talk to someone. Go into the pub and talk to the landlord. Talk to a human. If you're really desperate, ping me on social media and talk to me. There you are, there's an offer. Talk to just talk to someone. Samaritans. If it really is that bad, just talk to them, please. Because I lost a friend several years ago who was in the fetish community and very good friend of ours. And he killed himself in a car park not far from us. And he had a son. And even now, I find that hard. How could you do that when you have a son? What was harder was the fact that no none of us knew, none of us understood that. None of us took on board what he was going through to bring himself to that point. And he did it so logically. I mean, he left signs in the car. I don't know how he actually did it, but he left signs in the car warning people of caustic substances. He he knew what he was doing and he still did it. And I find that really difficult to deal with, even now, and it's multiple years later. But we drive past the car park every day, and that's that's always a reminder. So please talk to people. Post something on social media. Hopefully, that's gonna help. Unfortunately, a lot of social media people jump on it and start taunting, and I've seen it, so maybe not post on social media. But social media is we blame it for lots of things, but it is so powerful, it can do so many good things, and we see it because I'll go and look at reviews that people have left, and I'll go from being depressed and thinking everything's gonna end to seeing a review that someone's just posted about a triple one of our electros that we released last year, and it's fantastic. This guy has basically just uh it's only like a paragraph, but he's turned around and gone, This was fantastic, this was wonderful, and you suddenly realize why you actually do something like this. I don't do this to make money. If I did this to make money, I'd be in the city of London doing something. I do this because I enjoy doing it. I came from teaching. That's before I was in electronics, where actually through the process of going from what I used to do into electronics, I taught for a while at university. I love teaching, I love passing knowledge on, I enjoy it, I love talking to people about Eastern, which is strange because I do get a little bit of anxiety when it comes to talking to strangers. It's possibly why I'm enjoying doing this sort of thing because I'm not I'm just seeing it sort of three lenses and a little phone there. But I love talking about what I do, and I love the reaction I get from people, the the real people, not these social media trolls who are sex boy77 who thinks that we're all a bunch of charlatans. But the couple who've spent years together and have only just discovered Eastern and discovered what it can do. More recently, Kaz and I have started going out and playing at events. In fact, we're going to Germany next week. Actually, not next week, it's going tomorrow. We're not there because of what we do, we're there because of who we are. We're friends, we're into latex. Yeah, I'm sitting here in a bondage chair. Because it just happened to be convenient to sit with my ring light and talk to you. I will quite happily reply to you on social media. I want to reply to you on social media so other people can see what we say. Because we don't hide things. We don't sit here hiding. It's one of my pet hates as companies. I've got a problem with your box, I've got a problem with the plane tickets, or please send us a DM. Yeah, send us a DM for the private stuff, but let's discuss it in public because then people see how you deal with the problems. And that's the thing. We're all having to deal with problems. The world is a very big place. ESTEM is a growing market, but but the one thing is I have to remember is we don't have the sole right to create Eastim. There are plenty of people out there who are going to create the products that people really want. And it's up to us as a business to also create those products that you want. Not to tell you what you want, but to listen and create. So if you've got friends who are suffering or might be suffering, please talk to them. If you are suffering, talk to someone. It doesn't matter who you are, you're a human being. No matter where you come from, no matter what political beliefs you have, what socio-economic position you're in. I realise that certain peoples in the world are having serious issues with the world in general. We're seeing it, and we're seeing it quite close to home. We're all human beings at the end of the day. But just talk to someone. Hopefully, I think this has helped. Whether it helped me, I don't know. I feel a little bit better. I'm just reading my notes now. Twenty-two years. Yeah, East Jim has been going 22 years. And most businesses don't last 22 months. I'm not quite sure if that's true, but yeah, I do see a lot of businesses at the start and just don't last. And we've done our best to keep lasting, and it's been a journey, and hopefully it continues to be a journey. The spiral is lying, and that's the evidence. Yeah, that spiral of depression. It just takes something to break it. Whether it's just getting so tired I go to sleep and I wake up the next morning with a little bit of better understanding, or someone just turned around as they did today, actually, and went, nah, no problem. That's all it takes. It just takes someone to just say something. The black book never runs out of pages, and hopefully life never runs out of pages. Each day is a new beginning, each page is a new opportunity. That sounds really sanctimonious and and wordy, and I didn't make that up, I just made it up. But anyway, please. I hope this has been useful for you. I think it's been useful for me. It's gonna be very roughly edited. In fact, it's probably gonna go out quite quickly. So please, if you have any comments, questions, if you want to chat. ESTIM systems is all over social media. Please just feel free to drop us a line. If you ever see it as an event, come and chat. We'll talk about life, the universe, and everything. That's what we do. I mean, ESTIM is generally what we do, but it it's guess what? Now the phone's ringing. Anyway, thanks for listening, thanks for watching. Be safe and have fun and look after yourself. Thanks.