THE GREAT AI BACKLASH: Have we reached the tipping point and what comes next?

Something has shifted: AI no longer feels like a clever tool we can choose to adopt, it feels like a system being imposed on everyday life. Matt's think's we are already over the cliff edge, Jimmy thinks we are a few steps away.

We dig into why the backlash is surfacing now, why it is showing up in public opinion data, and why it is getting loudest among the people who are supposed to be “digital natives”. When graduates boo big tech speakers, or Gen Z romanticise dumb phones and offline hobbies, it is not just nostalgia. It is an attempt to reclaim agency in a world that is becoming automated by default. 

From there we go straight to the pressure point: jobs. We talk entry level roles, hiring freezes driven by “AI will do that soon” thinking, and the absurd loop where applicants use ChatGPT to write CVs that then get screened by AI systems. 

Even if the economy is part of the story, the perception is powerful and politics often runs on perception. We also explore what happens when synthetic media becomes impossible to spot, why “human made” work may gain value, and why trust in information collapses when everything feels generated. 

The conversation gets sharper as we cover physical backlash and state response: attacks on visible AI symbols, rising anger over data centres and environmental impacts, and the chilling logic of broad “anti tech extremist” designations that can blur protest with suspicion. 

We compare how this plays out in the US, Europe and China, plus why parts of the global south may see AI as opportunity rather than loss. Finally, we make our predictions through 2027 and beyond: mass protests, AI as a major election issue, and an AI bubble pop that could reshape costs and adoption.

 Subscribe, share this with someone who is arguing about AI at work, and leave us a review with your own prediction for what happens next.

Transcript

Why The Backlash Feels Inevitable

Matt Cartwright 0:03

Welcome to prepare for AI the AI podcast for everybody. The podcast that explores the human and social impact of AI. Explore where AI intersects with economics, healthcare, religion, politics, and everything in between. How many cities must the white dove sail before she sleeps in the sand? Yes, and how many times must the cannonballs fly before they're forever banned? Uh thirty. It's twenty-seven.

Jimmy Rhodes 0:32

Ooh, that was really close.

Matt Cartwright 0:34

Welcome to Preparing for AI with you. Greta Thumberg. And me? Oh, that's not who you were gonna be. Okay, anyway. And me, Jeremy Clarkson. Oh, opposite ends of the spectrum. Very much so. Right. And as everyone will have guessed, this is the backlash episode. So I don't know why you'd have guessed that, but if you did guess it, um, let us know and we'll give you a free hat or t-shirt or something. Uh yeah, this is the backlash episode because we think we've finally reached the the point, we've we've reached the cliff edge and we've fallen off it. We believe the backlash has begun, or I believe the backlash has begun. Jimmy thinks we're almost there, but we thought it was time as we've been predicting for has been some backlash. Yeah. As we've been predicting for, or I've been predicting since this podcast started, mass social unrest and rioting on the streets. I think we're on the cusp. Um I actually think we we're already there, but we're on the cusp of it, let's say. So it's time for that episode.

Jimmy Rhodes 1:29

So this was a prediction we made. We were making this prediction.

Matt Cartwright 1:33

We made a lot of predictions at the beginning of the podcast that have been bang on.

Jimmy Rhodes 1:37

Like I have to say, yeah. If you go back to if you go back it was two and a half years. Two and a half years ago. Two and a half years. If you go back two and a half years and listen to the painful episodes that we deleted the first episode because it was so remote. One of the earlier episodes. They haven't gone much better. But anyway, if um if you go back and listen to some of them, there was the especially the pr the specifically the prediction episodes. Um this was definitely something that we were we were talking about a long time ago.

Two Triggers Sentiment And Young Men

Matt Cartwright 2:07

Yeah. So so we're talking about backlash against AI, um, but we're talking we're talking in general terms, but I think what what we're or what has been the trigger for this, I think, that there are there are two things. One is sentiment has turned massively against AI in so in in Western countries at least. So one of the things we'll talk about is how that's not the same necessarily everywhere across the world, but it has it has definitely turned to the point where you can see a lot of surveys now that put your negative sentiment to AI in European and and and and the US and Canada, um, sort of upwards of 70%, even sometimes in the 80s. Um, and the people who are optimistic about AI depends on age group, yeah. But but as a in in general, people who are who are mainly optimistic against AI are in a very, very small minority. The second thing that I think is is sort of key to this is the people who are being affected by it and impacted sort of you know where the impact is now. If you look at the jobs impact, and I know there is still, you know, there are still questions around how much of it's AI and how much of it's other things, but if you look at who is being directly impacted by jobs now, disproportionately is young people, right? And disproportionately of those young people markets, shit, yeah, slightly disproportionately is is men and young men, yeah, slightly, slightly. It's not it's not a huge amount, but but it is slightly more men than fem male than female. I'm not quite sure why that is. The reason why it's young people is quite obvious because it's entry-level jobs, but if you look at where you know historically revolutions, social unrests, etc., tend to happen, it is when you have a disenfranchised, pissed off group of young men, basically, and that's what we now have. And I think those are two trigger points.

Jimmy Rhodes 4:02

We're getting there anyway, yeah.

Matt Cartwright 4:03

Yeah, those those are sort of two trigger points that have have have led me at least to believe that okay, now we're there. In the past, though, we didn't have video games. That's the difference.

Jimmy Rhodes 4:14

Well, you think that will help us avoid that's good distraction, isn't it? Good distraction is also because we could call it so they've learned how to they've learned how to shoot people.

Matt Cartwright 4:25

But yeah, I mean I it's that sounded really displayed. It was it wasn't I don't mean it like that. How do we start this? I

Entry Level Jobs Disappear First

Matt Cartwright 4:33

I think we start it with jobs because that's how we started um you know this this podcast was originally based around jobs and how it would impact jobs, and I think that is where because that is where you know the existential threats to humanity, most people are not talking about that and worrying about it. You know, we may talk about it, I may think about it, but most people are not. What they're thinking about are the direct impacts on them now. Yeah, is it impacting young people?

Jimmy Rhodes 5:02

It's well it's definitely impacting those jobs.

Matt Cartwright 5:04

I mean, like like so I mean, is it is it is it in sorry, is it impacting jobs for young people? Is it is it AI that's causing this? Does it matter actually? So it is. I think it does matter. The perception is it is. Well, I I guess that's my point is. Does it matter if it is if the perception is it is?

Jimmy Rhodes 5:20

So I think it's a combination, right? So so the obviously that it's I think there's been a bit of cart before the horse where organizations have kind of gone, well, we're not gonna hire anyone doing that because AI is gonna do that, because they've been told it is, and so they can make a saving there. And maybe that that's maybe that's combined with other economic factors and all the rest of it. But there is no doubt about it, like on the there is there's very few people who work in an office job. I doubt I you'd have to be hiding under a rock. If you work in an office job, you're going to have used AI. It does make you more productive. If companies are leveraging it properly, I mean, we were talking about this two, three years ago on the podcast. There are jobs, there are roles where you just do not need those junior level jobs anymore. Discover we talked about it in like the first few episodes. Things like discovery, things like basic accountancy stuff. All of these bits of software now have AI features built into them, which effectively mean that you know you press a button and the button does what the equivalent of a person did, um, you know, going back two or three years. So I think there is a real impact on jobs because of AI. I think that to be honest, I think it gets I think it gets cloudied and muddied and covered up by the economic um situation. Rather than the other way around. Rather than the way around. Like I I think it's more often that it's like, oh yeah, well, it could be because of you know this thing in the economy and the war in Iran and prices of this, that and the other and changes in policy. And actually, I think when it gets down to brass tax, it probably is a lot of a lot of a lot of employment, entry level.

Matt Cartwright 7:08

And an entry level, maybe maybe, yeah. Not I think it's it's important to differentiate that we're talking about entry level because whether it's the reason behind sort of other jobs or whether it's the opposite way around and it is actually economics, but I think you're right. At an entry level, it has to be AI because you've basically created and and even if we say AI is not as cheap as we think, it's still much cheaper than people, a person.

Jimmy Rhodes 7:30

Yeah, and yeah, exactly. And it's good well, and also like it's going to continue to get cheaper. It's going to continue to get cheaper. So so I think AI adoption is messy, AI adoption is not straightforward, but has it like effectively I I I can't believe that it isn't, right? So you go back two years to when we were making predictions and all of and we were making these predictions, and then all of a sudden now you've got record levels of youth unemployment. Exactly the demographic that would be coming out into these entry-level jobs.

Matt Cartwright 8:04

I I almost I don't feel like oh wow, we we did so well with these predictions. I almost feel like, well, how did everyone how did everyone not have the same predictions? I think because people were just not paying as much attention because they were not, you know, they're not we've not been incredibly insightful, we've just maybe you know thought and read and and studied and talked about this more than other people because I I think it's it's pretty obvious that we were gonna get to this point.

Gen Z Pushback Dumb Phones Sabotage

Matt Cartwright 8:31

I mean that the thing that has been an interesting development in the last few months that I think most people will have will have seen in the media to some degree is and it and it's kind of bizarre to me that they're doing this, but at all of these college graduations, you know, Harvard, Caltech, all all the you know, what Stanford or all the big US universities is they invite someone from big tech like Schmidt or you know whoever from from a big tech company and they give a speech and they mention AI and they get booed. That seems to be a you know a common theme, and I'm not sure whether the people doing the talks think, well, actually, they know they're gonna get this reaction, but they're like, we need to get this message across, and they're actually trying to be quite not charitable is a wrong wrong word, but they're they know they're gonna get criticized, but they're they're trying to do what they think is the right thing and get that message across to people. But I think the amount of like how much um vitriol has been aimed at them and how much young people hate this because there was this I think at the beginning there was probably this idea that with AI, like with any tech thing, is like we need to bring the older people along, but the young people they will they will just learn to embrace it. But you're seeing these rebellions, and okay, these are small um small communities, but they've got this new Luddite counterculture, which is not too far from our AI mish that we came up with, but you know, AI's uh sorry, Gen Z romanticizing what they call dumb phones, which are like old phones, analog hobbies, offline communities, and these are pitched as a kind of radical rejection of AI saturated world we live in. I don't I I mean I think this is not like this is just a good thing, like everyone should have more analog hobbies and more offline communities and friends. Like I I you know, I said to you at the beginning of the year, my my resolution for this year was, and this is nothing to do with AI, but it's like you know, I've got two kids, I do coding, I write blogs, I do all kinds of stuff in my own time. I don't have much time going out with people. It's like I need to spend more time with people, yeah. Like, so so if people are doing that is not a bad thing, but if this is a if this is a backlash against it, you you I don't know if you've heard about this as this like digital sabotage thing, which again I think is probably quite niche. I don't think this is most young people, it's not most people, but how much will this manifest itself? So, like intentionally poisoning training data, flooding platform with what they call do you know this nightshade code that basically destroys AI coding, apparently, review bombing AI integrations? Like, what I wonder with this is if you've got this much of a backlash against AI organizations, at what point do we get a kind of a reckoning where we say, okay, if I'm in if I'm a business, I'm like, oh actually, I really need to think about whether I'm using or how much I'm using AI from the point of view of being attractive to customers. Because if you have a big and and young people are a big market, right, that says, you know, I'm not going to buy something that is AI, and we are seeing that, like maybe not necessarily with young people, but we're seeing the beginning of that. At what point do you say, okay, there's a kind of we meet an equilibrium there where it's like the amount of AI used has to be, you know, enough that it gains the productivity gains, but not too much that you're sort of blacklisted as an organization. I'm not saying this will happen with tech firms because obviously that's just going to happen. But if you're, let's say if you're okay, let's just give an example. You're a restaurant, right? Some people would say, I don't like scanning a barcode and ordering, I like to order from a member of Wait staff. That's not really based on any ethical reasons, that's more based on the fact that I just like that interaction. But if you get to the point of AI, if there's a restaurant that serves you with AI robots, and people are like, well, I don't want to use it, you could argue, yeah, but the AI robot ones can be much cheaper. But are there enough people who push back that you say actually I'm not gonna have AI robots because no one's gonna dine in my restaurant? Maybe. Um I can see it happening. I I don't think it will be nobody, but it's enough for a differentiation, like this idea that everything will be AI, that customers still have power at this point in time.

Jimmy Rhodes 12:53

Yeah, I suppose so. I mean most of that stuff isn't really AI, but I I can see a scenario where I don't know, the latest um Disney film comes out and people don't want to watch it because it's employed some AI technology to do all of the animation or something.

Matt Cartwright 13:10

It's happened with adverts, hasn't it? Yeah. It has happened with adverts, yeah. Certain brands going back from having AI sort of actors to having real actors because people have a problem with a problem with using AI in adverts.

Jimmy Rhodes 13:26

Weird that adverts was the one they've chosen as the well I but adverts was always the thing that's the was gonna be a good target market, right? Because you because most of the AI video generation stuff can only do 10 seconds, even now. We we we did on an episode, didn't we?

Matt Cartwright 13:42

We played the first AI generated advert. Do you remember? I can't remember. It was it was a Super Bowl ad for a um gaming company, like a a a betting company. Oh really? It's the first AI generated, full AI generated advert.

Jimmy Rhodes 13:55

Yeah, I mean there's so much AI generated stuff for now online. Like I I'll be honest, like when I come across something AI generated on I'll use YouTube as an example, but when I come across something, as soon as I pick up on the fact that it's AI generated, I'd get rid of it, I turn it off, I go and do something else.

SPEAKER_04 14:12

Yep.

Jimmy Rhodes 14:13

And so I have a resistance to it, but then there was also a study where people quite like that, and like there's and and some of these channels have millions and millions.

Matt Cartwright 14:22

Well there was do you do you not remember in China there was if if there's an AI generated audio, it was seen to be much more trustworthy than the one without audio. And this feels like it's we're going into the the sort of difference between China debate already, but yeah, um I I I feel the same as you. Uh I just the thing that we can't be sure of is is this a temporary thing and we just get used to it, or is it a real full-on backlash? Because I I I I feel exactly the same.

Authenticity Anxiety In Art Music

Matt Cartwright 14:50

And I said um my dad does a lot of painting. Um and it got me thinking, because my my when we're back in the UK recently, my daughter was was sort of doing oil painting, like trying to use all paint to my dad, and I was thinking how great this was, she was she was still like really really loves painting and doing it, and I was thinking about the value. I know this is something we talked about two years ago, but I think like thinking has maybe moved on since then. Is d we we we said at that point that the value of high-end art remains the same or maybe even increases, but everything like below that essentially is it do it kind of doesn't matter. Yeah, graphic design goes out the window, graphic design, but graphic design is sort of separate from that. But well, it's it's on the art spectrum, isn't it? Yeah, I I'm using myself as an example, which is a terrible idea to to try and try and you know uh scale my own thoughts out. But a few years ago, 20 years ago, even 30 years ago, whatever, you I would have bought a poster of a print of something that I really liked. Right now I feel like if I'm gonna have artwork, I want it to be an individual human-created piece of art. I I think I put much more value on that now, and I think that is specifically because of artwork.

Jimmy Rhodes 16:05

I think that has got more value. Like if you I had a pulp fiction poster because I liked the film, but that well, we both went to university in the UK, so could we both had the same but that cost a fiver Howard Marks it cost a fiver. I wasn't I didn't keep it in pristine condition because I thought it might be worth more money in the future.

Matt Cartwright 16:24

That hasn't changed, has it? But um that's not what I'm talking about. What I'm talking about is if I had a piece of AI generated art on the wall, I would feel nothing about that. It hasn't even taken because at least with the picture you're talking about, the pulp fiction picture, right? It's a reproduction that at some point some there has been some artistic process engaged in. I think for the AI generated art, even though there is a process, because I I could have sat with a prompt for five hours shaping this piece of work to be exactly the image I want. But there's but but yeah, exactly. But there's just I like our podcast logo, I do, but it was AI generated, and so I don't think it has it has any of the value that the first AI podcast logo, which was semi-AI generated, but then I had to cut bits off and I went into Canva and paint and all kinds of things, okay. I think had more value. I don't know if this is a temporary thing, but I I just feel that the backlash if you take things like music, etc. as well, is like it increases the value not only of like the highest end stuff, but it increases the value of me playing the guitar, increases the piano the the value of you being able to play piano.

Jimmy Rhodes 17:33

I wish I could, which you can't do, but if you could, or the clarinet or whatever you can buy. I I want to come up with a counter-argument to this, and I'm I'm going to try, which is that like if there was an example, wasn't there? Like, this is again going back two years, but there was an example where someone submitted a piece of AI generated art into a competition, yeah, a painting competition, yeah, and they didn't tell anybody, and then they won the competition, and then they told them afterwards, and obviously everyone was up in arms, blah blah blah. And I think they obviously they gave the competition to the next the actual first human-generated one. But it's an interesting experiment because if they'd never said that wasn't that was an AI generated piece of art and everyone had just believed that it was a human-generated piece of art, then what would that then increase your value? How you value that that that piece of art? Because that that but and I asked that question not as a kind of like silly thought experiment, because that's but but because that's the world we're gonna end up in. Yeah, we're gonna end up in a world where you can't tell the difference. I don't think we're quite there yet, but we're probably nearly there with images, we're there with text, I would say. So like what if you don't know? What if what if you're the person who won that painting competition had never told anybody and pretended it was a human achievement, and then everyone bought that painting, and then everyone thought it was and they made and they said, well, it was actually painted by Matt Cartwright.

Matt Cartwright 19:08

But I think when you don't know is when when then people want proof, is like that the then becomes an assumption that it's AI. Like I think that happens now. I think and I think that started to happen now. It's interesting that like people are assuming stuff's AI, yeah. Like, but even with articles, it's like the assumption is it's written with AI.

Jimmy Rhodes 19:24

Yeah.

Matt Cartwright 19:24

And and actually you can cut it, you can still kind of tell at the moment, right?

Jimmy Rhodes 19:28

You can't tell. You can't tell. You can tell no, you can tell if someone's used AI and not a lot and they've not bothered to hide it. If I've used AI, I've I've used AI to write stuff and I've had it write it, and then I've humanized it and putting that in quotes for people that can't.

Matt Cartwright 19:43

Yeah, so I mean to be fair, that's what I I write articles, I write the draft, I then get AI to create the article and then edit the article. Two steps are human, but the bulk work in the middle is done by by No, but you can humanize it with AI.

Jimmy Rhodes 19:56

I I said to Claude earlier on, I want you to change all the language in this in this, and I want you to make it, I want you to make it so it doesn't sound like it's been written AI by AI, and I want you to go and look up on the internet what that means. It went and looked it up, it found the rule of threes, it found the m-dash, it found all of the different tells, and then it went and fixed them all. And so all you have to do, at the very least, is do a second pass with an AI to make something look like it wasn't written by AI. And I and I I presume you can do the same thing with audio and video and other things in the future, like not necessarily now. Like Suno, for example, which we use for music, is getting better and better. I don't think anyone the music's almost the most contentious one because music is actually mass-produced, sorry, mass produced. Everyone listens to music, like I think less people are going to appreciate Picasso's and art and all the rest of it. Music's something that people listen to on a daily basis. There is a big backlash against AI generated music, but how long is it, you know, and and this is the the authenticity thing, right?

Matt Cartwright 21:07

Like how you know how better is live music than recorded music, though. It's much better. Why is it much better? But live art versus looking at art on a screen is the difference is not the same. No.

Jimmy Rhodes 21:23

Anyway, yeah, no.

Matt Cartwright 21:24

I mean that I get maybe that's just a personal opinion.

Jimmy Rhodes 21:27

You could go, you could go. I mean the reason the thing is, the reason like really expensive art ultimately the reason really expensive art is worth a lot of money is because it's worth a lot of money. It's it's it's a it's the same reason that a ten dollar bill's worth money is because people believe it's worth money, fundamentally. Like, like, why is the Mona Lisa?

Matt Cartwright 21:47

I'm saying that we we had that debate about fine art where I think the backlash is and will happen is that people don't so the graphic design thing kind of doesn't matter. You were talking about this about website design and and apps and people not even wanting to use an app or a website that's over AI'd. You know, I even even again I haven't like it's not out there in release, but that health tracker that I built, one of the bits of advice I was given by humans and ironically by AI itself, was saying that this, you know, the weekly report function uses AI to generate it is not the selling point you think it is. And so there is this acknowledgement. I mean, like, of course it's an AI generated one because it's obviously not like there's a human who's analysing your week's data and creating you a report, but I mean the idea of pushing this idea of it, and so that backlash, like, does it translate into I guess my point is does it translate into actual sort of boots on the ground and people voting with their feet, or is it just ultimately a case of well, people want not AI, but if AI is cheaper, they'll they'll just go with it in the end.

Jimmy Rhodes 22:59

I 100% guarantee that the people who are protesting about AI probably top probably asked Chat GPT what's the best way I can protect protest against AI. Yeah.

Matt Cartwright 23:11

And I'm sorry to say that to anyone. And also thought that ChatGPT, when it told them, was like was was thinking about it and giving them a like a clever answer rather than just Yeah.

Jimmy Rhodes 23:22

I'm sorry, but like and and this but this is the same with everything, right? Like so so you can have strong opinions about um about a lot of things and be completely hypocritical, and I and there's nothing wrong with that. There is nothing wrong with that at all. You can be wearing a pair of Nike shoes and simultaneously complaining about the fact that they use forced labour. Yeah. Um people who say that like you're being a hypocrite because you live in this world and you and you use these things and then also complain about them. So you care about animals but you still eat meat. Exactly. Like like the people who the people who call you a hypocrite for saying that, it's it's just nonsense. It's just a nonsense argument. Um, like like you're allowed to live in the world and disagree with the way we do things in order to sort of hopefully strive for a a better way, right? So I use AI, but I sometimes catch myself nowadays. I'm like, uh, that was something that I didn't need to use AI for, and it's probably do you find that you challenge gallons of water or what do you challenge it a lot more?

Matt Cartwright 24:35

Answers. I find I'm already challenging challenge what like well I get an answer from from a question or or even like a piece of research. Like previously I would I I go and look up the article that it's it's looked at and I check it, or I go and ask another AI, or or I just think is that right and I go and talk to someone who knows about the subject. I I find that I'm I'm already I'm very very skeptical. Far more sceptical, yeah.

Jimmy Rhodes 24:58

Which is a good thing, which is I mean, but everyone needs to that's the critical thinking episode. We've had the critical thinking episode. Like if you if you ask AI if every question that comes into your head you pop into AI and you just trust the output, then you know, well, why'd why do you have a brain in your head to be honest? Like like you know, you've you can't do that.

From Anger To Violence And Surveillance

Matt Cartwright 25:21

Let's bring it back a little bit to to where there's been a backlash. Um the one thing that didn't mention in the the sort of turning point, the Sam Altman Molotov cocktail incident, which I when that happened, I mean I felt like not not not like I was happy the Sam Altman, although I can't sound Sam Altman, like you know, I don't wish a person to be but he didn't get hurt, yeah. I know, but I don't wish a person to be attacked in that sense. But I was kind of happy in the sense I was like, well, this is what I said was gonna happen. I I was kind of not happy, but a bit smug about the fact that it was it was starting to happen. There were two incidents with Sam Altman actually where he was attacked. There have also been many incidents. Um please don't go and attack someone in San Francisco. If you do, it's your own decision, not ours. Um in San Francisco where people have attacked Waymo's, haven't they, and burned out cars and stuff. Um you're definitely seeing the beginnings of a backlash. I mean, like these big tech figures are like they are the face of this entire industry. I don't know what their security sort of detail is at the moment, but they're essentially like they're basically like prime ministers and presidents now. Yeah. Not far off.

Jimmy Rhodes 26:42

Um yeah, and if you if I was worth as much as Elon Musker probably would chip in a few quid for that, which is what it is for him, right?

Matt Cartwright 26:52

Um But but it's more than that because they're being blamed by people for basically the the end of their I think for you. They deserve the blame, yes they do, they do. I but that's what I'm saying, but they're being blamed for and and this is a thing that I used at least a year ago, maybe two years ago, is something that has been done to us. What's the Matt Damon film not for us?

Jimmy Rhodes 27:16

Um uh it's not Wally, Wally's a another good example, but like it's a different example. What's the Matt Damon film where it's the sequel to District 9 where everyone who's rich lives on a lives as long as they want? Elysium, yeah.

Matt Cartwright 27:29

Is that Tom Cruise? Oh, he's Matt Damon, you're right. It's Matt Damon, yeah, yeah. It's Matt Damon.

Jimmy Rhodes 27:36

Elysium, where basically he's in a poor family and they're trying to get treatment for his sister or something like that. And on and then they find out on this space station that all the rich people live there and they can basically just regenerate themselves. Like they're all building bunkers, yeah. I'm not being funny, but like we are heading there. We're in a we're already in a K-shaped economy, we've now got AI, like what what else do you need? Like that the the the literal end result. Okay, you can go back and listen to the dystopia and and um utopia episodes, but like we are heading that way, and the the the Elon Musks are the people who'll live forever and and be able to just kind of ignore everybody else. So I like again this this this we get you're getting into politics and the fact that we need policy changes to fix all this stuff and it's all very messy, but we're heading in that direction, there's no doubt about it. Like you mass youth unemployment and AI is gonna do everything. And anyone who says that like it's gonna generate more jobs and all this stuff, I've never ever believed that. Like, if you think if you look if you logic it through, we robots are coming next, robots aren't here yet. But AI, if it reaches its meets its potential, if it can be integrated the right way and all the rest of it, it has the potential to fundamentally just automate most spectral jobs.

Matt Cartwright 29:04

Okay, so there's no doubt about that. This is where for me that the the original my original argument for backlash, like, and I mean by backlash, I don't mean even know what's happening now. I mean when I'm talking about like mass, mass and I I like I I think potentially like never seen before levels of rioting and social unrest on the street. Is I there the for me there are only two possible outcomes to a future if if we continue to head in the direction we're heading. One is that there is either like AI takes over and and AI is in control, and then who knows, like all bets are off. Like it could be the end of humanity, or it could be it could disappear to Mars or whatever. The other one is that AI becomes incredibly powerful and concentrates power in a very, very small, very, very small number of people. At which point, you know, how do you maintain the current population of the world, or what why would they want to maintain the population of the world? Or we don't get to that point because before you get to that point, people are being strung up on basically like strung up on poles in you know the in the squares in city. Like, I I can't I can't see how you don't have either of those two things unless something radically changes, and and that's why I'm saying, like, where I think we're heading with these organizations, they are asking for regulation, right? The government is not regulating them, and we're we're kind of just talking about the US here, to be honest. Who gets the blame? Because at some point, like for me, there is an uprising. Who gets the blame? Is it government or is it big tech? Which one of them ends up with their heads on sticks, basically?

Jimmy Rhodes 30:46

Well, part of the problem here, right, is that like we've gl we've we've gone through globalization. So if you're having an uprising in the UK against tech firms in the US, who are you putting on a stick? Like you you you but I'm giving the example of the US. Well, no, I understand that, but like the US will probably look after itself. Like if if any country's gonna prosper from this, it's probably gonna be the US. In which case, who cares if they're having an uprising in Europe? Like it it's a bit different to the days of the French Revolution, right? Where's the other thing? Okay, but young people can go back on it, the aristocracy and they're just down the road. Yeah, yeah. We're gonna end up in a situation where But that this is why I use the Elysium example, right? Because the in the Elysium example, the US is the space station in the sky and everywhere else is is is kind of screwed.

Matt Cartwright 31:43

On on the basis that that young I mean that only works on the basis that everyone in the UK in the US is doing fine out of this.

Jimmy Rhodes 31:51

They will. They will. Everybody. The US will prosper from it because the US will if okay. And young people will be fine. Yeah, I can I can see. Assuming assuming that the US is the one country that does benefit from this because they have the best AI models. They have the constitutional everyone outsources.

Matt Cartwright 32:06

It can easily support 350 million people.

Jimmy Rhodes 32:08

Exactly. Yeah, no problem.

Matt Cartwright 32:10

They've got 90% of all the world's wealth.

Jimmy Rhodes 32:12

Yes, exactly. So you've got the rest of the world basically buying their AI labour and then to move to the US now. Well, may yeah, maybe, I don't know. Uh I mean it depends on whether it goes that way or not. I think I think the argue you could argue that actually the we argued this in the last episode, like the economic benefits and realizations have been realised by China because they produce cheaper models that do things well enough. Um, so it sort of comes down to that really, but um in that sense, it isn't Europe and it isn't other parts of the world. Like everyone's going to I think of it like I mean, for example, so we've outsourced for many many years, right? We've outsourced our um everything, our everything, like everything. We've acts outsourced all of our production, means of production to places like China and India and other places, right? So um what you get what you get to do with AI if it realizes if you get the if you if you manage to realise the benefits of it, is those are the countries that then now get to outsource AI to the rest of the world, right? So every country in the world then basically has to buy this resource from the US or China or wherever it is. And so it's the kind of reverse.

Matt Cartwright 33:43

I think I think I mean I think like it's a really strong argument. I think as a counter argument to that the most furious, and it's a very bipartisan public backlash over job displacement and overreach and corporate overreach, etc. Is in the US. So you know, I guess your point is well everyone's placated if it's like yeah, but we're all okay. I I mean is is it just is it just about money though?

Jimmy Rhodes 34:19

Because is this about like I don't think we've realized the economic gains, may I uh at all. No, no, no, exactly. It's just a money sink.

Matt Cartwright 34:25

No, no, but I mean like your your point would be like if all the money is is is in the US and they can give everyone loads of money to do and realise all the benefits, and then everyone will be kind of fine. But yeah, if you've got these sort of Gen Z, Gen Alpha students who've got this existential dread, they've got now complete apathy towards higher education. Okay, we we've said you don't need higher education for for certain jobs, but you need to be educated, you need to understand the world. Is like, is it just that this generation is just I'm sorry, but you've got the really shit bit while you transition, and actually, you know, my kids generation will grow up with this and will will be okay because they you know they will not have the same expectations for their future, they won't be like, my my career was taken away from me because they'll be like, Well, why would I need a career? Because I'm that's not what you do. Yeah, this is like maybe that's yeah, yeah, but maybe that's the case. But it it doesn't feel to me like people in the US are okay with this, and you know, people in the US and Europe are the ones this backlash is there. This backlash, and we'll talk about I think we'll talk about that in a minute, but this backlash is not happening in China, for example, at this point in time.

Jimmy Rhodes 35:37

Well, they don't have any young people.

Matt Cartwright 35:40

Well, I mean their their youth unemployment, they just stopped um reporting it, reporting the figure the figures, and that's not a joke, that's literally what they did.

Jimmy Rhodes 35:47

So yeah, yeah, yeah. So it's I mean, I'm not gonna try and make those kind of predictions. I think you're right, like I think it could end up in some kind of revolution. What's the alternative, Jimmy? In the medium term. Um what's the alternative?

Matt Cartwright 36:03

I d I don't see any alternative.

Jimmy Rhodes 36:06

To what? To a revolution.

Matt Cartwright 36:08

Well, to a revolution or like or just you know, the deep state depopularises the world. I'm I'm I'm I'm sort of joking conspiritual here, but like unless you believe that, what's the alternative to an uprising? So AI doesn't develop how we think it would, and therefore it doesn't matter so much and it takes much longer than we think.

Jimmy Rhodes 36:31

No, no, there isn't really an alternative. My gut feeling is that like my gut feeling is that the op the what's it called, the techno-optimist the version, the utopia you used to be. No, the you well no, so the utop so the utopia can be arrived at, yeah, but I don't see how you don't see a will. I don't see how the path No no no, it's not that I don't see a will. I don't see how you get there without a revolution because the world's world's too messy.

Matt Cartwright 36:58

Okay. Yeah. So we agreed. We can finish the episode here.

Jimmy Rhodes 37:01

Yeah, yeah, yeah, yeah. I don't I don't I never said that though. I said the I said the utopian version of AI is that everyone gets looked after and you don't have to worry about having a job and going it's a completely different world where you don't you do things between And the in between generation unfortunately they they're kind of screwed because they've expected the old world but they're getting in they're getting the new one.

Matt Cartwright 37:24

It's any transition, yeah.

Jimmy Rhodes 37:26

It's any transition. Like if you were I don't it's uh it's hard to even imagine it, but if you were a if you were someone who was 90% of the population who was worked in agriculture when the Industrial Revolution happened, then you were one of the 90% of people that had to go through that. And you had to go through presume presumably it was horrendous. Uh you know, like well we know it's pr presumably it was horrendous. We know it was horrendous, right? So you had to go from living a happy, relatively happy sort of life in the countryside to cramming yourself into a city that was polluted and everyone's life expectancy dropped by like 20 years or something, bonkers like that. Like again, like these if we don't have the as much information from back then, but these things have happened before. Um and I I think the I think that the in that sense the AI revolution will be similar. I think it's a bigger shift because the shift faster. It's faster, it's really quick. The the concept, like trying to get your head around the concept of like I don't you know my what's my purpose in life, it's not about sort of it's just not the traditional life that we're used to, like at all. I I would just none of the education system set up for it, nothing, society is not set up for it, none of itself.

Matt Cartwright 38:56

I think we need to move on from from from this, but just like one last thought on this is when you're saying that as like the transition to like to completely changing your your your your reason for for being like your raison d'etre in a way, right? Like your is about work. Is when we talk about the industrial revolution or any of those other revolutions, is for most of history, and actually for most people alive now, work is not like a sense of purpose, it's just something they have to fucking do to make money. Like for most people in you know, in the industrial revolution, before the industrial revolution, they were not like, How dare you take away my ability to farm this field that like fails three years out of every four? So, like the idea of like a career as being this thing that is our sense of purpose and value, I would argue is actually quite a like not just quite a very, very recent thing.

Jimmy Rhodes 39:50

It's a very, very recent thing, very, very recent thing. Yeah.

China Europe And The Global South

Matt Cartwright 39:58

Right, let's briefly touch on the sort of China versus the West or China versus the US angle. Because I think it's you know, we we do this a lot because we're based in China, but I think this is important here because there's a big difference at the moment. The backlash is not happening in China in the same way, although that is changing somewhat. Um, and I say somewhat because it's not a big change, but um, you know, in the West, this whole thing, to be honest, is driven as we have to do this because of because of China. If we don't do it, then China will do it. At the same time, you have a sentiment in the US where people are generally against I say against AI. It's not maybe against is the wrong word, they don't think that AI is a net benefit, they're more pessimistic than optimistic about it. And Europe is the same but different. In Europe, it's like a kind of systemic cultural resistance. Um, and then the EU AI Act has kind of created this hostile environment for AI tech firms, it's kind of happening very differently. Public sentiment leans towards protecting human labour, data sovereignty, all those kind of things, which you know pisses the US off. It's gonna cost the U this is gonna cost Europe in terms of like the ability to reap the benefits from this, but maybe it will kind of protect human values a bit, maybe not if there's no like no one's got any money. But in China it's different. The I when I was researching this, there was a thing saying the public backlash in China is effectively like muted down by the state. I disagree. I think it's true that AI is framed as like a tool for national rejuvenation, it's true that citizens, in a way, are forced to adapt it. It's also true that China has basic rules that say companies should use AI and they sh must use AI, but they can't get rid of any people because of AI. I just don't think in the US, in in China, from my knowledge of people, there is that backlash at the moment because I don't think people have seen the negative effects in the same way.

Jimmy Rhodes 42:07

I don't know. Um I yeah, I'm just not close enough to it. I think that I mean on the one hand, I'm I'm like, is the backlash overblown? There have been a number of news stories, there is a backlash, but is it is it just because we follow AI news and we see all of these examples?

Matt Cartwright 42:31

And uh there isn't really the equivalent of the China not everyone, but like most people trust the state more. That's a starting point. Well, yeah, and I I do think the state, in terms of the way it will adopt AI, is adopting it in a way that is like putting people first more than it is in the US, for example. That doesn't mean I think that like China is is going to protect every individual, it's not going to protect individual rights, but at a population level, it may, it may do that somewhat more. And I think most people see in their daily lives, they see it as a force for you know increased productivity is is a way in which China can like sort out its economy.

Jimmy Rhodes 43:18

Yeah, I mean with everything in China, it's more it's it's like everything is more it's like it's there's there's a sort of dampening effect, isn't there? Yeah, like social media, AI exactly.

Matt Cartwright 43:31

It's not it's not that censorship, it's dampening. That's a good good term for it.

Jimmy Rhodes 43:35

Yeah, like that you're never gonna have runaway social media stuff because it just can't it's not allowed.

Matt Cartwright 43:41

And rioting and protesting and none of it and burning D Ds that are powered by AI.

Jimmy Rhodes 43:48

No, no, because it just gets d uh a stop gets put to it immediately, which yeah, you can call it a dampening effect compared to the West. Like the the the difference is people are You know, there is a bit more there is more freedom of expression here than people in the West would think, but then at the same time, there are very hard limits to it.

Matt Cartwright 44:10

And so freedom of expression is allowed to happen enough that the authorities are able to see sentiment and react to it, which people would argue is a form of democracy. Not quite, but I but but there is like you say, there is far more listening to people's um opinion and sentiment in China than than people in the West would would think, yeah.

Jimmy Rhodes 44:30

Yeah, so it's it's a bit of a sort of it's definitely not obviously there's no freedom of speech and all the rest of it, but it's it's it's the it's not quite as straightforward as it's just a a traditional communist society where like North Korea or somewhere like that. So I think probably leave it at that, but but what that means for for what we're talking about is that any backlash then naturally would be muted, right? So you wouldn't be as aware of it. Yeah.

Matt Cartwright 45:02

Um which I think Well once the sentiment, I think the idea is once the sent there's enough sentiment against it, the government then adjusts either the messaging or the actual practice to react to that without allowing it to ever seem like exactly that is the process.

Jimmy Rhodes 45:17

Yeah, exactly, exactly. So so so yeah, so I I I I think it's partly that, but I think it's also partly that everything in the West gets amplified. So it you know the cesspit of Western social media, yeah, yeah, yeah. So so everything gets amplified, right? So I don't know, like if you were to, you know, when you when you poll, for example, when you poll people on like the um popularity of AI and things like that, is is you know, uh if if 70% of people say they don't think it's a good idea, this, that, and the other, are they also like the next second using chat GPT or AI? Yes, and it's almost certainly the answer. And that's the thing, is like, and and again, going back to the hippoc hypocrisy thing, I don't think that necessarily matters, but it's like the the West is full of this kind of like these contradictory views, isn't it? Where where it's like, oh yeah, I'm dead against AI, but I use it five times a day and I ask every single question I would have previously put into Google.

Matt Cartwright 46:18

I hate social media, I'm just going to bed to watch TikTok videos for an hour. Exactly.

Jimmy Rhodes 46:24

And it's like I don't know whether that's like we can't help ourselves or whether we just we're allowed to have an opinion about everything, but also completely contradict ourselves. Or also to blame them.

Matt Cartwright 46:35

Well, it's their fault for giving me the option rather than my own fault for taking responsibility for my own behaviours. Totally. I I think one thing that's also worth mentioning on this is like it's not just about with China, it's not just sorry, with talking about not the West, it's not just about China. There's this kind of the global south. I think very much I hate that term by the way, but the global south, like they they see this the global south. Well, do you want me to list all the countries? No, it's what we used to call the third world. Oh, sorry, right. Yeah. Oh really? Yeah, the global south. Oh, I didn't know that. I've never heard it before. Oh yeah, that's that's what we that's what we've used for the last ten years. Oh right. Um which shows that you're not you're not judgmental on it anyway. Um yeah, they have a very sort of unique backlash in this in that they're tired of being used as you know, or perceived as like outsourcing, data labeling, sweatshops, because that is yeah, that has happened for quite a long time, is this idea of like basically doing data work that was another form of of sweatshop work, yeah, yeah. Um, and then Western tech monopolies reap all the money of that, and you know, see this as like, oh, actually, we can, you know, this is an opportunity, like AI can be a kind of leveler for us. Like, if you start off from a different point, you're you're starting off from a lower point, is like AI can help to bring us up to that level because we're all given access to the same tools and these Chinese tools that are open source that we can use. I think if you're looking at it from an economic point of view, and when economics is yeah, when you're a poorer country, economics is further up the importance, you can't afford to put other things ahead of it. Whereas countries that have done better historically have been able to then think about, you know, think about human rights, social issues in a way that those countries haven't. Yeah, to them AI is definitely a not I'm not saying it's a force for good, but it it has the potential to bring them up a level and level up to some degree. It's not gonna help France or Germany or the UK or Poland or Canada. It's not it's not gonna make those countries richer, is it? They're gonna be worse off compared to the US and no better off compared to everybody else.

Jimmy Rhodes 49:04

Until they yeah, until they until they until they sort of smarten up and actually start building some AI capacity out, yeah.

SPEAKER_04 49:11

Yeah.

Matt Cartwright 49:12

But that I think that that that changes like the backlash isn't there because you're you're not losing something. It the backlash is against this perception of losing something. The the backlash from young people is a perception of losing their dream career, losing the future they thought they were gonna have. And I don't think in China at the moment there's a perception that you're necessarily losing something because the job thing hasn't really hit in China. And and maybe part of that is like I said, you know, China has said companies need to adopt AI, but they can't replace people. Yeah, now that is impossible for the company, but uh state level they've made quite a clear instruction.

Jimmy Rhodes 49:57

I mean, arguably you could just become a more productive company, but like yeah, but uh there's a limit on that. There's obviously limits to that.

Matt Cartwright 50:03

But then you become a more productive company, you knock out other companies, and then they lose their job. So that the end result is similar.

Jimmy Rhodes 50:10

Yeah, the end result is the same, isn't it?

Inequality AI Everywhere And Local Harms

Matt Cartwright 50:18

Alright, so what is driving this at this moment in time? Because we've said that we're at a kind of we're at a pivotal point, but what has actually what do we think's actually changed? I mean, I think like there's always been, hasn't there, this where the existential risks is a kind of smoke screen, and you know, the talk about sci-fi risks, terminator scenarios, whatever, whether they're likely or not, is used by Tex EOs to avoid talking about immediate real-world things like you know, jobs going, data piracy, which are like those things are happening now. I think that's absolutely true. But there are a few other things as well.

Jimmy Rhodes 50:56

I think like well those are those those are so if you're young, those are the things that are directly impacting you, right? There is no doubt about it. If you're if you're looking for a job and you're chucking in a hundred job applications and they're getting filtered out and no one's replying to you, then that's what you know the 15% youth unemployment and rising in the UK, if you're one of that well, 15% is huge percent in China. Yeah, but but but if you're one of those 15%, that's that's your direct experience. And then presumably you're going online, yeah, having conversations with other people in the same situation, and you're seeing news stories about the fact that AI AI is not only AI is not only replacing jobs and resorting to the fact that you can't get a job, but it's also screening your job applications. You're probably using it to write your job applications, to be honest. Like, like it's all AI, isn't it? If you're in that world, it's like AI is the reason why you can't get a job, it's the reason why you're getting screened out, and then you're having you're having to resort whether you want to or not. And then you're being having to resort to write your job applications.

Matt Cartwright 52:06

And then and then people at college are being told by AI bosses you need to adopt AI. It's like, I am adopting AI, I'm using it for everything, and it's not doing me any favours.

Jimmy Rhodes 52:14

I'm not getting anywhere with it, yeah.

Matt Cartwright 52:16

Yeah, yeah. I think I think there are other groups are like middle classes that the people who are worried about you know deep fakes and who are worried about AI apps for absolutely everything. Um, every operating system, every service has an AI element to it, you know, every customer service. So one thing I like in China at the moment is you've type Ren Gong, which means like a person, basically, like a personal customer service assistant. It will usually take you directly to one, but you have to start out with an AI chatbot interface, and some of them are better than others, but it's like it's it just feels like it's just everywhere, right? And people I think are are growing just more and more frustrated about the fact that it's it's in everything, you know, they want to make an appointment. Something is an AI system to make an appointment. People just there's a backlash against that, but I think that is that is a kind of limited group. The the one that I think is a big um a big driver, because you we talked about this a lot as like it drives everything, it's just the wealth gap, and this idea that you know fundamentally it's just economic inequality, isn't it? You just see this as like, is it just a massive wealth extraction tool? It's just going to enrich a small number of people in Silicon Valley. Actually, if you're another country, it's like it's even worse because it's taking all the money out of your country. It's it's that that I think is part of the backlash. Is you're seeing, well, hang on, economically, we're we're told about all the economic benefits, even if they're all these individual kind of negative, there's all these economic benefits. You're like, but hang on, where are they going? I'm not seeing any like is the UK or Germany or France are they seeing any economic benefits of AI at the moment? Nothing. Uh well, hard to well, I mean, I mean, if it is, it's hidden as like a percentage of uh or a a fraction of a percentage of GDP. At least in the US, you can kind of say, okay, well, the economy's growing, it's propped up by AI infrastructure, but at least the AI infrastructure is giving us growth. In other countries, it's not even giving you that. It's just giving them, it's just transferring that wealth to the US, to Silicon Valley.

Jimmy Rhodes 54:26

Yeah, and that's what's gonna happen, right? That's what's gonna happen. I think that there will be a certain amount of leverage, you know, there will be a certain amount of companies in the UK leveraging leveraging um AI to well in the case of making layoffs, presumably you do that so you can make more profit, or make or not, even if you're not making layoffs, like cancel your recruitment, which is what we're talking about, with the job situation, but like I feel like it's less it's it's feels like it's more we can make a productivity gain so we can we can hire less people rather than we can leverage the capability of AI to become more productive and increase our GDP. Yeah, you're doing the same thing for cheaper rather than we're not increasing it, we're just doing the same amount for less.

Matt Cartwright 55:18

Yeah, and the argument was always no no, we'll just create more and more and more and more things, and everyone will just generate because the pie will just get bigger and bigger. It's like the pie is the same size. That's nonsense, yeah. The pie's the same size, yeah, yeah, yeah.

Jimmy Rhodes 55:29

And I think that's the problem, right? Is that yeah, you you're basically saying we're gonna do the same amount of work but with without people involved.

Matt Cartwright 55:38

The other thing, I mean, like we've talked about this again before, but like the US is it still continues to somehow defy odds, the economy continues to sort of plow along. But a macroeconomic shock could be the trigger for this. You know, that that is the point at which forget a like an AI incident, but that is the point you threat you cross the threshold there at which actually if you get an economic shock as well, and then you get you know more people out of work, and that's blamed than AI, that's the threshold, isn't it? Which for me that's a threshold at which like you get the mass unrest happens like pretty quickly. Yeah, you end up with large-scale backlash, yeah. I I just maybe we'll finish on that point. Um, I'll I'll save the what's gonna happen point and we'll make our prediction. But the one thing that we probably should talk about as part of this, and I and I think this is interesting, frightening, but also says how much the backlash is happening. This FBI anti-tech extremist designation, because you told me about this the other day, yeah.

Jimmy Rhodes 56:42

Yeah, this it seems mad, like the the and and I and I know that I'm not I'm sure that they're not putting people on the watch list who haven't been violent, I hope. Um, but there is now a anti-tech extremist designation by the FBI, which means that uh pr presumably if you are involved in a protest against something like AI and you um you're also violent, then you go on this watch list. But it's a it's a fine line, isn't it? Like I don't know the the thing that bothers me with something like this is like what do you have to do to get on that watch list?

Matt Cartwright 57:20

And that's it, it's like is this podcast enough?

Jimmy Rhodes 57:23

Well for example well yeah for example yeah with this particular episode it's like you know how do you how do you get on the radar on this? Is it is it is it by being involved in a protest? Is it by being involved in any protest where someone happened to be violent at that protest? Well too are you bunch are you are you are you then you were then involved in a violent protest, right? Even if you didn't do something. And this is like the this is the stuff.

Matt Cartwright 57:50

I can answer you that question, Jimmy. Go on then. You you've segued perfectly. So the a bit more detail on it, because you told me about this and then I did a bit more reading on it. So apparently a thousand pages of internal documents were leaked via Wired, right? They show the FBI DHS, I don't know what DHS is, but another one, and local fusion centres. Homeland Security. Is that Homeland Security? Okay, Homeland Security, yeah. Local fusion centres have a broad category to surveil citizens showing anti-technology sentiment. The reality is the intelligence community is already flagging completely legal activities like photographing data centers or expressing anti-AI opinions online as pre-operational extremist planning.

Jimmy Rhodes 58:29

Right, brilliant.

Matt Cartwright 58:30

Yeah, I mean, I'm like I'm literally I'm joking, but is this pod like this podcast like we we might be on the pre-operational extremist planning list?

Jimmy Rhodes 58:40

Uh well, given what we've done. I might be saying today. You might not be. I probably given what we've been saying today. But well, yeah, like you know, so talking about you're you're right, like I mean, and we're not talking about maybe just to clarify that, we're not talking about any of this in terms of like trying to incite it. We're talking about it in terms of in terms of how we're musing on we're musing on where all this is going, right? And that's probably gonna come in with our predictions shortly. But you're right. Like, where what do you have to say to to get on this list? Um, or do or not do? I mean, taking a picture of a data centre, especially given if you're in the vicinity of one of these data centres and and um Oh wow, look at that data centre, look, it's massive.

Matt Cartwright 59:27

Look at it. Why would you not take a picture of it, right?

Jimmy Rhodes 59:29

Well, and also if you live nearby, there's been you know, there's been Senate hearings in the US where people have brought in uh I think I can't remember her name, her full name, but it's AO AOC, Senator AOC. She um brought in from her constituency uh dirty water from uh I think it was from a build-out of a data centre.

Matt Cartwright 59:51

Georgia, wasn't it?

Jimmy Rhodes 59:52

But but yeah, exactly. But bas Maryland, exactly. Maryland, sorry. Maryland, Georgia. Okay. So but but but I think it is Georgia, but basically, people in Maryland are now having to drink um bottled water, which they've never done before, because there's a data centre build-out going on and it's ruining the water. And so if you're in Maryland, presumably you're quite annoyed about what's going on. And so are you just like on the list, you know, because you happen to live the store.

Matt Cartwright 1:00:20

We haven't even talked about the environmental triggers of backlash because we think that is in in its it's like a whole episode in itself. But the environmental triggers are another huge, you know, there's a huge population of people who really care about the environment, and and even people who don't really care about the environment but care about their own neighbourhood and are getting and and are getting those impacts. I mean, I think I think it concludes like the concluding point, and then we'll do this sort of prediction, is the trigger for this whole thing is this profound, like and basically pretty terrifying terrifying realization by the public that the whole AI revolution is top-down. No one voted for it, and no one voted for how it's happening, no one asked for it, no one asked for it to happen in this way, and no one can stop it. And and or or it doesn't seem like anyone can stop it. And I can't think of you know anything that is happening quite the same way with quite the same speed, where people seem to be so bypassed, and and as we we've said a number of times, I think even in this episode, that the AI regulation is kind of asking to be regulated, and even that's not happening, like it no it it's no one knows what to like, no one knows what to do, and because it's happening so fast, we haven't got time to catch up and come up with those

Predictions Mass Protests And Election Politics

Matt Cartwright 1:01:40

solutions. That's never gonna happen. So let's make a prediction because we've predicted over the past couple of years we're in 2026 now 2027 specific to backlash, what happens?

Jimmy Rhodes 1:01:56

2027. I think it depends what's what else is going on in the world. So for so for me one of those so for me, one of the things that sort of masks this really is what else is going on in the world. I think that if I think that this is gonna become more sharply into focus. I think you're going to I wouldn't be surprised I wouldn't be surprised if by I'll say the end of 2027. I wouldn't be surprised if there have been um again, assuming a lot of things either stabilise a little bit in the world or don't get worse, I guess stabilise is the right word, at the very least. I wouldn't be surprised if by the end of 2027 you have had some mass protests by young people specifically, because the way things are heading, like youth unemployment's getting worse and worse, um you know, you've got you've just got an increasing number of young people that basically can't get work, right? And uh and are stuck in a situation where they're financially and situationally worse off, socially, economically worse off than their parents' generation, and it's not getting any better. So I wouldn't be surprised if you have mass protests by the end of 2027. But I think it does depend on what's going on in the world.

Matt Cartwright 1:03:30

So I'm gonna agree with you on that. I think um I think I predicted a rigid 2026. I think it'll be a little bit like I don't think the big protests will happen this year, I think they'll be next year. Right. But I think they will happen. I I think we're talking like Iraq war scale protest. I think we're talking huge protests with different people protests. In the US or in Europe or well in in various countries, I think the UK, the US, I I think like it I don't think it'll be one country because the effects are the same, but I think they happen in a way that there are different people protesting for different reasons. I think the other key thing is that I think for the 2028 US election and other subsequent elections or elections at the same time in other countries, I think by the end of 2027 AI will be the number one um sort of it will it will be the most important thing that people are voting for because I think when by what by when? Well, we're talking about 2027, yeah. Right, the US election will be 2028, yeah. It won't be 2027, but I think by the end of 2027 it will already be the most important electoral issue. Um I think so. Because I think in which country though? In any developed country. Because I think the economy will, and the economy now is intrinsically linked to people think that the economy is because of AI, whether it is or not. So I think I think what you know things that will happen with um fertilizers, etc., all of that kind of stuff, I think in some way we'll be lumped together with AI and with tech. I think everything will end up getting lumped in with it because people can't can't view things as being multi-layered and complex.

Jimmy Rhodes 1:05:11

I think it's inevitable that it will be. I don't know if it'll be the biggest electoral issue.

Matt Cartwright 1:05:16

Well, you don't have to, it's my prediction. Well no to predict.

Jimmy Rhodes 1:05:19

So I guess I'm disagreeing with it. Well, as an example though, I mean, like using the example of the UK, if you look at if you look at sort of like the actual cause of things versus what the narrative says is the cause of things. Yes. It's like it will be people will decide. So like will it so will there be a bunch of stuff that's caused by A AI that gets blamed on immigrants, for example, or other things? Will there be um you know will there be knock on effects on healthcare where actually the biggest issue is health care, but actually the reason for that is somehow AI?

Matt Cartwright 1:06:00

J but do you know why I think it's really because apart do you know why I think it's going to become the the main cause? Because apart from if you are the US where it's maybe slightly different, if you're another government and you blame it on AI, that it's not your fault then. You're blaming it on the US. It's not your fault. If you blame it on it's because we've managed the economy badly, or it's because you know of climate change and our policies or whatever else, you're you're responsible for that. If it's if you just blame it on AI, AI's become will become a get-out of jail free card for everybody else. It's because of all these data centres, it's because of AI. It's not our fault. It's it's these big tech companies in the US.

Jimmy Rhodes 1:06:38

That's why I think it will.

Matt Cartwright 1:06:39

The other thing, I've just got a third prediction for this, is I think um by the end of 2027 you'll see countries I don't know about the US, but certainly European countries starting to put in place sort of schemes that make no economic sense for for example getting young people to do AI tasks like you know, sitting and and watching AI or supervising AI is because it somehow creates work and they they they somehow see this as creating a kind of a job for young people and they pay for it through some form of AI. Not necessarily a tax, but you know, you need to have if you have this AI running, you need this supervision and blah blah blah, and you because you you have to create jobs in the short term. Further down the line you can transition to some kind of model, we're not there yet. And I've always said like there has to be this kind of very, very knee-jerk reaction I think on youth unemployment. You have to do something about that. Otherwise, if you don't do that, then the social unrest that you get is much much worse than what I'm predicting.

Jimmy Rhodes 1:07:42

I'll make one more prediction, which is that and this is not even I'm not even sure this is a prediction because it's already happening and we're already seeing it, but I think we'll see it to a larger extent by the end of 2026.

Bubble Pop Costs Rise And Final Takeaways

Jimmy Rhodes 1:07:55

I would say 2027. End of 2026 to mid-2027. I I would like basically at some point we're gonna have a AI bubble pop, yes, crash. And this is obviously not related to like like the backlash. But it will cause a backlash because everyone will be like, oh that was a bullet. Um but but out of the back of that you're gonna have some companies that are successful and some companies that disappear. And I don't know what that'll look like. But the other thing will be that AI will become significantly more expensive, and it will continue to become more expensive as it gets commoditized because well basically you're gonna have this bubble, everyone's offering free to cheap AI, and then AI costs more than a person, and then everyone starts employing people again.

Matt Cartwright 1:09:03

I don't want to go off track at the end of the podcast, but it's I I'm just thinking, if you try and compare, like, you know, does that mean that there are no job losses? Well, of course you've got if p if the minimum wage in the UK is 13 pounds, of course it's never gonna be cheaper than an AI model. But there is a world in which you know the labour there is a world in which the labour of a human in Cambodia is cheaper than an AI model. There is a world in which that's the case. That doesn't help protect jobs in the UK and France and Germany and Scandinavia. But yeah, I mean we've prove we've proven this now. AI is not free and it's not cheap in the way that we thought it would. The advantage is it can keep running all the time, it doesn't need a break, it doesn't need rights in the same way. But there's a reckoning in terms of like how cheap is AI, it's not what we thought.

Jimmy Rhodes 1:09:44

It's not what we thought.

Matt Cartwright 1:09:45

And it's not just getting cheaper and cheaper and cheaper.

Jimmy Rhodes 1:09:48

Yeah, no, neither is true, but then I think also the world when it comes to the crunch, they will find ways to make it cheaper and cheaper and cheaper. And actually Yeah, like you don't need a PhD that'll like AI to do most of the stuff. I mean, let's not go into all the rabbit hole with it, but like I think it's a combination of both. I think there'll be a crunch, it'll be a big crash. AI will become more expensive on the back of it for the model, the technical models we're using today for the free basically. But at the same time within reason, I think it will probably continue to get cheaper and compete heavily with human labor.

Sign Off And The Backlash Song

Matt Cartwright 1:10:27

And on that note, goodbye for me.

Jimmy Rhodes 1:10:31

Uh goodbye from me. No, I'm just gonna stay there and keep talking.

Matt Cartwright 1:10:36

You're gonna go and cook a fish, which is actually true.

SPEAKER_01 1:11:05

Now the letters guns go around for me. Hundred application screens by us ghosts. The machine reads in my dreams, they deleted the most. They promised us bread, they handed us code. Start off the bottom and call it the road. The strong getting stronger, the rest left behind. I started down few, and no one is dying. No one has it, it's got the back falling out to the afternoon, they got on the screen. Food off the state where the profits preach. Just adopt the future that's out of our reach. Dumb phones glowing, we're going offline. Trading the algorithm for a hand in mind. Poison, the tail of the night takes gross, then the glitch we're found. The voice that's low, real pain, real strings, the human base down. While the plot of blood is that we're entered on the ground.

SPEAKER_00 1:12:55

Oh, I'm just waiting for the photo eye day. Um rich never died.

SPEAKER_01 1:13:09

From a boy is unplugged cocktail thrown where the empire stood, burning out the future in the neighborhood. We rage at the machine and we ask it out, but in the contradiction we're living in our buttons, cracks the resistance ignite, reclaiming the choice, reclaiming the night. The spirit still driving the heart still odds. We'll rewrite the fate of these topics to unfortunately, no one that's the start of the flip and out of the afternoon.