Salty Podcast #70⛵️Old Boat? Bahamas? Hard Truths about Insurance Explained!

The truth about yacht insurance isn't what most boat owners expect to hear. As insurance veteran Keri Gonzalez reveals in this candid conversation, "Insurance is not your friend, we're not a good neighbor, you're not in good hands." With 36 years of experience as an insurance broker, Keri strips away the marketing slogans to expose what boat owners need to understand about their coverage—especially for older vessels.

For owners of boats over 26 years old, the insurance landscape becomes increasingly treacherous. Most standard markets reject vessels valued over $150,000 once they reach this age threshold, forcing owners into specialized markets with higher premiums and more restrictions. Documentation emerges as your most powerful ally, with Keri emphasizing the critical importance of maintaining cloud-based records of all maintenance and upgrades. These aren't just helpful—they can be the difference between a claim being paid or denied when disaster strikes.

Storm coverage presents particularly dangerous territory for the uninformed. Many boat owners don't realize that their hurricane plans become literal contracts, where any deviation—even moving to what might objectively be a safer location—can void coverage entirely. GEICO policyholders face the additional burden of updating their location every 14 days regardless of weather, while other policies silently depreciate your vessel's value without notification. Perhaps most alarming is the revelation about lithium batteries, which many policies exclude entirely unless specifically disclosed and approved in writing.

The conversation ventures into international waters as well, with Keri offering invaluable guidance for Caribbean cruisers and explaining the strict blue-water experience requirements for those seeking transatlantic coverage. Whether you're maintaining your vessel in a hurricane zone, planning extended cruising, or simply trying to protect your investment, this episode provides the unvarnished truth about what your policy actually covers—and the many ways you might accidentally void it.

Want to ensure your boat insurance actually protects you when you need it most? Listen now, take notes, and check your policy before it's too late. Have questions about your specific situation? Reach out to Keri directly at keri@amginsuranceinternational.com for personalized guidance.

Chapters

• 0:00 Yacht Insurance Reality Check
• 10:30 GEICO Policies and Location Updates
• 19:20 Defining Older Boats and Documentation
• 29:15 Storm Plans and Hurricane Coverage
• 39:10 Navigating Caribbean Insurance Options
• 49:00 Liveaboard Status and Policy Implications
• 57:40 Hope Fleet and Closing Thoughts

Transcript

Capn Tinsley: 0:00

Tonight on the Salty Podcast, my guest is Keri Gonzalez from AMG Insurance International and we're tackling the realities of insuring an older boat. We'll break down how underwriters define older, what depreciation really means for your coverage and the key paperwork you need, from maintenance records to surveys, to protect your claim. Plus, we'll cover hurricane zone restrictions, bahamas time limits and the market options you may not know exist. This is Yacht Insurance Explained. We'll be talking about other things too, but that's just kind of it in a nutshell. But before we get underway, if you like this sailing content, please consider liking and subscribing. It really helps grow the channel. I'm your host, captain Tinsley, of Sailing Vessel Salty Abandoned and Island Packet 320, and this is the Salty Podcast, episode 70. Please help me. Welcome Carrie. Hello, hi Tinsley, how are you? I'm well, how?

Kerry Gonzalez: 0:57

are you?

Capn Tinsley: 0:58

I'm good. I'm good. Let me just take a drink real quick. We were just talking offline and I was learning. This is the first time we've met, so let's just start with a few qualifying questions. How long have you been in the yacht insurance business and what drew you to it?

Kerry Gonzalez: 1:18

Oh, mercy. I grew up on the water in Canada, on a small lake. They didn't allow jet skis, so it was a really quiet, serene place. And I'm at the point in my career where you know I want to do something I love, and I love the water. So I've been an insurance broker for 36 years. Wow, and yeah, and what called me to this? That's a great question. I really just feel like it's very difficult for boat owners to get the truth unhindered from an insurance agent. They're expected to, you know boat owner is expected to become an expert in insurance and to understand the fine print without having this kind of relationship. So often you find that you know boat owners, especially when they have a claim, are given an 800 number or they're expected to go back and read their policy and understand how the pieces all fit together with the promises that they've made as a boat owner.

Capn Tinsley: 2:23

That's for sure. Okay, from your perspective, what's the most common mistake you see boat owners make with insurance? And that kind of leads into what we were just talking about offline.

Kerry Gonzalez: 2:36

Focusing on the premium. You know I'm going to make a lot of enemies on this call when people say that because we are all cost sensitive, we move to a boat or we decide we're going to spend time on a boat with the expectation that you know we're going to save some money. Right, and I know you and I were just talking about my common thread of our work, which is insurance is not your friend, we're not a good neighbor, you're not in good hands. It is very simply not a warm fuzzy. It is a two-sided contract whereby you agree to certain things and the insurance company says that if you uphold your warranties and promises to me, we might pay coverage and we might depreciate things and we might attach certain conditions we might want to investigate, and so it's really important to read the fine print.

Capn Tinsley: 3:34

Would this be a good place to talk about the whole GEICO thing?

Kerry Gonzalez: 3:39

Yeah, it wasn't in our plan at the beginning. But I think GEICO is important because GEICO used to work with independent agents. I had a few hundred boats with GEICO at one point in time and GEICO made a decision to cut the independent agent out of the equation. And now, if you have GEICO, you have to go to a service center. So if you have GEICO, you basically really need to become an insurance expert. When they renew your policy, they may self depreciate from year to year.

Kerry Gonzalez: 4:09

They might lower your value, so you really have to watch that, because they're going to lower it without your permission and you do not have the option of appealing that whatsoever. They may also take your navigation box and narrow it. So you may have had Bahamas last year and maybe this year they're going to take it away. Bahamas used to be something that they covered on an unlimited basis if you asked for it. Now they cover up to 90 days on the policy year and you have to tell them where you're going and how long you're going to be in the Bahamas. So you have to give them the dates and it has to be within that 90 day parameter. And there are other companies like that also.

Kerry Gonzalez: 4:54

Now, the other important thing to note that we were talking about earlier with GEICO is you have to be looking at the fine print on the. They send you a piece of paper on the top of your insurance policy, either electronically or through the mail. That basically says it's your responsibility to notify us of any material changes, including your location. So you have 14 days to update your location with GEICO or you have to go to the self-service website and update your storm plan with them. So if you're a cruiser who's constantly on the move, every 14 days, you're going on to the self-service website and you're updating your location and you're redoing your storm plan form.

Capn Tinsley: 5:39

And.

Kerry Gonzalez: 5:39

I wasn't really prepared for this question in advance, but if anyone wants to reach out to me afterward for me to explain how that works, just know that I'm doing it as a consumer service. I do not represent Geico, but I can do their storm plan and the self-service website that you need to go to if you can't seem to find it in your paperwork.

Capn Tinsley: 6:01

Okay, and this also is on the audio podcast website, so, for those that are listening, her email is Carrie at AMG insurance international intlcom. That's Carrie Gonzalez, so there's the email right there. But that, yeah, that's very helpful and I didn't know that and so I was breaking the rules. So, thank you. So I'm going to tighten up on that. So let's talk about the older boats, and then we can go wherever you want. But I've got some questions for you. How do underwriters define an older boat, and when does that start to affect coverage?

Kerry Gonzalez: 6:38

Yeah, so it's the proverbial, it depends. So you know, geico's rule is in the underwriting guidelines. The written rule is 30 years.

Kerry Gonzalez: 6:50

So you're getting close if you're, you know if you're before right they may grandfather some votes in, but if you're a new vote going to them and you're 35 years old, they're going to reject you. So it really depends on the market and it depends on the value. So if you, you know, have a higher valued boat or you've gone through a total refit and you've kept your rece of the boat and they're not just cosmetic and you know routine maintenance, then you might be in a different market. But let's go back to the underwriting definition of an older boat.

Kerry Gonzalez: 7:35

Okay, for the most part, if your boat is over 150 000 in value and you're more than 26 years old, most markets in the United States will reject you. So it's important to know that there are options outside of the independent agent market. So if, for example, if you are in the United States and you still want to go to the Bahamas but you're not going past the Bahamas, you might be able to go to a direct writer such as a state farm. State farm plays with larger values, older boats they don't really like to write liveaboards or people who are never in a marina, so that's important to know. But if you have a home base and you're just cruising and going to the Bahamas, they would be a good option to check with.

Capn Tinsley: 8:36

Well, let me, when I, when I, they allowed me to update my coverage from having addendums to my survey and they even made exceptions, like it was more than a year, but they got it approved, and so that's one way of showing, because I had gotten a bunch of upgrades twice. So that is a way, right, to show proof that you have upgraded your boat, right.

Kerry Gonzalez: 9:01

Yes, but it's a fine line between an upgrade and a cosmetic or routine maintenance issue, because sometimes you I mean if you're in real estate you know that if you're, if you're making a cosmetic change in it, it improves your curb appeal. It doesn't necessarily improve your value, it just improves the way people view it Right. It just improves the way people view it right. So it depends on the market. But whether you're looking at trying to place insurance for the first time or you have a claim, you should always keep your records and you should always keep an electronic copy of your maintenance records.

Kerry Gonzalez: 9:40

I walked onto boats where someone has a binder with all their receipts and they're organized and beautiful. But let me tell you we have responded to fires where everything has burned and all of a sudden the claim becomes in question because they can't produce the maintenance records to justify the value or to justify why the fire happened in the first place. Because if you can't produce the receipts, then you may not be able to prove that your fire extinguishing equipment was updated, that you had regular oil changes, that you had inspected a chain plate inspection. You need to keep the records in cloud form on the internet.

Kerry Gonzalez: 10:23

Yeah, I do both. Good, that's really smart. I've seen a lot of people get burned during a claim because no pun intended, because they can't produce records, it's so important. And then when you do go to shop your insurance so say, in five years Geico drops you because they say, okay, we're not going to write a boat that old anymore For a new market. You may have to produce all those receipts all over again, or at least a spreadsheet, and then they might come back and say, oh, can we see this receipt? On this receipt to justify it. So it's both for applying for insurance, applying for new markets, as well as if you have a claim. That's really the whole point of this conversation is we don't buy insurance just to have a piece of paper. We buy it so that if we have a claim that's unexpected and unintended, we can be made financially whole.

Capn Tinsley: 11:16

Right. Okay, so I do have a question for people watching either now or later in the replay, which is where most people watch. For those of you watching live, what's the age of your boat? Have you ever had an issue with getting coverage because of it? So I'd love to hear your comments in the comments. Okay, so what kinds of this is what we just covered? What kinds of maintenance documentation make the biggest impact with underwriters? What's the biggest thing that gives you value?

Kerry Gonzalez: 11:47

Yeah, so it's not so much the value that the underwriters are looking at. They want to know that your boat is a fair market value. So if the survey says it's average or below average value, underwriters don't like to see that. So they're going to look very specifically at the survey. You're not going to look at the number behind the value as much as they're going to look at okay, this surveyor he's like God, you know he's gospel.

Kerry Gonzalez: 12:21

If he says your boat is worth 125 000, it is. They're never going to question that. They're never going to question the comps. So it really goes back to the fair market value in your survey now I've got a bristol, you got it, and I said what's that?

Capn Tinsley: 12:39

and she says it's the best you can get, or something like that. So I didn't't know. They did that until and so and Geico accepted that.

Kerry Gonzalez: 12:47

You know, yeah, and if you're in this, if you're in the standard market, most markets really want to see that you have a NAMS or SAMS related surveyor. Those are the two survey associations. Otherwise they're going to question the validity of the survey. And if you're with a London market I just want to go back for a second so we don't miss this If you're with a London market, the London markets may specifically ask you to resurvey your boat every two or three years.

Capn Tinsley: 13:16

That was my next question.

Kerry Gonzalez: 13:18

Okay, yeah if your boat's more than 26 years old. You need to be prepared for that and if you go to the survey, it's really helpful to be at the survey and discuss with the surveyor. Look, here are my records. Here's last time we did an oil sample. Here's my chain plate inspections, which are quite common, because that's not something that's covered by insurance. So you want to show the surveyor all your records so that they're incorporated into your survey okay.

Capn Tinsley: 13:48

Yeah, I'm due for uh to get another survey, so, um uh, cecilia potts, do you know that name? No okay, she's like the go-to for island package. She does other boats too, but hayden turned me on to her and she is wonderful. Good yeah, so, okay. So that was my next question how often should a HALT survey be done and why should survey recommendations be in the HALT?

Kerry Gonzalez: 14:15

That's a different question, dinsley. How often should you do a survey? You should do a survey as often as you need to change your insurance, okay, but you said every two years If you're with the same market. But if you're with a market that you're worried will drop you because you had a claim or some other reason, then you should have a survey that is, within the last two years, because surveys are valid with every market for two years. And we're talking about outer water surveys, we're not talking about in water. In water surveys are no longer utilized for underwriting purposes.

Capn Tinsley: 14:52

Okay, okay. How important are rigging inspection records and receipts when it comes to proving a boat's condition?

Kerry Gonzalez: 14:59

Yeah, so surveys have to be in your own name when you buy a boat because yeah, that was in the proof objectivity.

Kerry Gonzalez: 15:06

But if you um, if you have, if you're buying a new island packet and you have rigging receipts from the former owner, they'll take the rigging receipts or a formal rigging inspection in anyone's name. It doesn't have to be objective. They want to see that the rigging has been cared for throughout the lifetime of the of the rigging. And the other thing is, if you, if you get the rigging has been cared for throughout the lifetime of the rigging. And the other thing is, if you get new rigging, like I know, colin, he'll give you a free formal. I don't know if I'm allowed to say this, but I know he's given lots of people free formal rigging inspection reports when he's replaced the rigging. So most people don't ask for it because they don't know that underwriters want to see it. So if you're getting new rigging, make sure you ask for it because usually it's free.

Capn Tinsley: 15:51

Okay, yeah, I'm going to try to arrange when I, in October, I'm going to go from Orange Beach to the Keys and then to the Bahamas and I'd like to stop in there and either because it's a 1998 boat, you know, and that is about the time they were changing that stainless steel and I don't know I've been told that, yes or no, that it can be inspected, but you know, I don't know that that's true with the island packet inside I'm talking about inside the boat. Yeah, but it's time for me to do something, so I might try to arrange something with them while I'm down there. Um, what's, uh, what's the difference between agreed value and actual cash value policy, and which is better for older yachts? Is that a good question? You smile. That's a great question, okay good.

Kerry Gonzalez: 16:43

If you come to me and you say I want to save money, I want to buy an actual cash value policy, I I'm not going to sell you insurance because I feel like insurance, even without actual cash value, is based on trickery, deceit and you know just language that the common person doesn't understand. It's even hard for agents to understand it. Why would anyone buy actual cash value? That's going to look at the ambiguous opinion of the lifespan of an engine or a watermaker and they're going to form an opinion. Okay, your watermaker should have a lifespan of five years. So we're going to depreciate it and a lot of times depreciation happens more with soft goods, but I've seen policies that depreciate everything on older boats. I would never buy an actual cash value policy because it's very deceptive and very misleading.

Kerry Gonzalez: 17:43

Agreed value is the true concept of insurance. It's the concept of indemnification. It makes you financially whole. Whatever you put in it is what you get back out of it. Nothing more, nothing less. So if you bought it for $75,000, you get $75,000 back, right? If you have a total claim, you know total loss right.

Capn Tinsley: 18:06

If you have a total claim, you know total loss. Does that answer your question? Well, what if you? What if you? You buy it for for 85 or something and then put 30 000 in it, not including labor? Right and then you, I did the addendum, so is that? Is that what you're talking about?

Kerry Gonzalez: 18:21

so some insurance companies will allow you to update the value Right. You can still do it on an agreed value basis. Some will say, okay, those things are general maintenance for an older boat. It really depends on the underwriter.

Capn Tinsley: 18:36

Okay, all right. Well, I added, like you know, solar and lithium, all this good stuff you know did yeah okay.

Kerry Gonzalez: 18:45

So there's another important thing. It's really important, if you add lithium, to disclose that to your agent or your underwriter in writing and get an acknowledgement back that they know there's lithium on your boat. Now if you're with geico, you're fine because the policy is silent. But if you're with a company like markel or there's a list of others, and you have lithium and you haven't disclosed it, you've voided your coverage, because all lithium is excluded, doesn't matter whether it's lithium ion or lithium iron phosphate. If you have lithium and you didn't disclose it to one of the markets that excludes it, you voided your coverage. So it's really important to have that you know regular dialogue.

Capn Tinsley: 19:24

What if it's in the survey or the addendum to the survey?

Kerry Gonzalez: 19:30

I would take an extra step of making sure you point it out to the agent or your representative in writing, and don't just point it out, but make sure you get an acknowledgement back that there's lithium and it's covered okay, wow, you're definitely right. They're not your friends you don't you likely don't have coverage for lithium.

Capn Tinsley: 19:52

It's not the intent of their policy to cover lithium okay, all right, I know that the, the, the technology, the technology has gotten much safer. They don't view it that way.

Kerry Gonzalez: 20:07

So we're not talking about my opinion or any particular underwriter's opinion. We're talking about a scenario where the narrative has not been controlled. It might have been a lithium bike or a lithium toy of some sort, or a lithium battery that was purchased off Amazon, or a used Chinese battery your market batteries but that gives the whole lithium scenario a bad rap. And so there's certain markets who've just taken the posture that we're not going to assess whether it's good, bad, indifferent whether it's OEM or aftermarket, and you're a do-it-yourselfer. We're just going to say look, all lithium is excluded. So if you have lithium, make sure you get confirmation back from your agent that it is covered on your policy.

Capn Tinsley: 21:03

I might hire you.

Kerry Gonzalez: 21:08

I don't represent GEICO because GEICO doesn't.

Capn Tinsley: 21:09

No, I mean switch to you, because I would like to speak to a person like you.

Kerry Gonzalez: 21:15

So anyone can call us, we can answer questions. But I think you've understood from our initial dialogue that if independent, we're an independent agent. If an independent agent market is not the best scenario for you, we're going to be the first ones to tell you look, we'll do you a favor, we'll educate you on the markets that can do this, but it's not us. And there are some markets that you might have leverage with. If you have property, if you have an auto policy, if you have life insurance with them that you might be able to get an exception on your boat insurance. Okay, where they might not write your boat, they might not insure your boat on a standalone basis, like, for example let me give you a few examples yeah, on a standalone basis, like, for example, let me give you a few examples yeah, I've got a lot of insurance with farmers.

Kerry Gonzalez: 22:07

If you have any insurance with Hanover, they will likely accept your boat, but they do not want to see boats in Florida. If you have insurance with Chubb, they will likely accept your boat. What about farmers? And y'all come back to that one. So Chubb will do Florida if it's not a scenario with an absentee owner, like they don't like snowbirds, but they do select situations in Florida for boats and you do have to have a survey in certain situations, but it really just depends. Now, farmers, the boat side of farmers is foremost insurance and we do have foremost. But you can't be a live aboard. So if you're and they're the same as it's the same way with progress.

Kerry Gonzalez: 22:56

That is the company that I had before okay through that brokerage yeah, so we, so we, we have foremost, we, we. We represent foremost and progressive, but one of the common mistakes people make is going, like I said, with the cheapest, but in the fine print of foremost and progressive. It is not their intent to ensure liveaboards. So that's really important to know. And they also have stopped riding really old boats. So it just depends on your scenario and where you are.

Capn Tinsley: 23:29

What did they stop riding Back to the homeowners. What did you say? They stopped riding? On what boats?

Kerry Gonzalez: 23:38

Really old boats. So it depends on where your boat is. If your boat's in Florida, they don't want to necessarily write boats in Florida that are, you know, over 10 years old. In some scenarios it depends on the value. What about next to?

Capn Tinsley: 23:53

Florida.

Kerry Gonzalez: 23:56

Very like clean line, where you know where it depends on their, their, their market, you know.

Capn Tinsley: 24:04

Okay.

Kerry Gonzalez: 24:04

Here.

Capn Tinsley: 24:05

Hayden's asking a question here. Sb Island Spirit. What's great insurance for Caribbean cruisers? Six months per year, that's them, you know. Okay.

Kerry Gonzalez: 24:14

Let me finish this one answer, though, because the truth is, if you have homeowners and auto, you can also go to Pure Insurance. They make exceptions. Mount Holly will make exceptions. If you have a higher valued boat and you have property with AIG, they may make an exception. Ok, caribbean.

Kerry Gonzalez: 24:35

So we have a partner in the Caribbean. That is not a true partner, it's just someone that, look, if I own an island packet and I was headed to the Caribbean, I would insure with this group and I send a lot of my customers there. So they're not on this call because their team leads are on vacation this week. But I'm happy to direct anyone to them. I don't get paid for it. So this is extremely objective advice. But there is a broker out of Barbados called Arthur Gallagher, and I can give you the contacts for their entire team. They have about eight markets that will write Caribbean coverage on sailboats in particular. One thing to know, in particular, is they they do not like the litigious nature of the United States of America, so they don't like that. We all sue each other.

Kerry Gonzalez: 25:27

So if you're going to the Caribbean and you're bringing your boat back to the US this year or within the policy year. Their markets do not want to insure you.

Capn Tinsley: 25:36

Well, what about in the case of Hayden, where he leaves it there If he?

Kerry Gonzalez: 25:39

leaves it there, then Hayden should reach out to me again and I'll hook him up with this team. And the one thing to know is that they do not like to write uninsured voters because they attach it to that whole stigma of you know lawsuits against each other. But it's important to know that if you're going to the Caribbean, a lot of people don't insure in the Caribbean. You better ask for it and you better push for uninsured boaters to be included in your insurance. It doesn't really affect the policy much, but if you just take whatever they give you, you're not going to get uninsured.

Capn Tinsley: 26:13

So when you say uninsured boaters, you're talking about the people around you on other boats. Is that what you're saying? Okay, yeah, they don't cover if somebody hits your boat or something. Right?

Kerry Gonzalez: 26:24

Okay, right, or if you're? If you're, if you leave your boat there, your boat breaks loose and they can't determine. You know, if there's four uninsured boats and there's your boat and yours is the only one with insurance, guess who's paying? Yeah, so, um, it's really important to have uninsured boaters and if you know that, going into it and you ask for it, it really doesn't affect your premium. And this particular broker was named one of the most ethical brokers in the world many years in a row, which is not something you often see attached to an insurance agent's name.

Capn Tinsley: 26:58

I'm not kidding you. I know I believe you.

Kerry Gonzalez: 27:00

I've referred hundreds of boaters to them and, like I said I've never hundreds of boaters to them and, like I said, I've never taken a penny from them, even for a referral. But then you know it comes around because when they have boats that are coming back to the U S, they send them back to me and then, and then we have to know that, look, if you're coming back from the Caribbean, you might need a new survey. You might need to have your fire extinguishing equipment inspected and certified.

Capn Tinsley: 27:27

Okay, here's a question for you. How do coverage options differ between non-hurricane prone and hurricane prone waters?

Kerry Gonzalez: 27:37

I like it when you smile when I ask a question. I think I've hit a good question when you do that. Yeah, let me start with the worst part of the answer. Okay, you and I were talking earlier about the worst case scenario, which is a specific market called GIA Global Insurance Agency. It's actually an insurance company that uses the Buford scale as the deductible determination, so as the wind speed increases, your deductible increases until you know when you're at a category four or five you're basically paying a hundred percent deductible.

Capn Tinsley: 28:19

I've never heard of that.

Kerry Gonzalez: 28:20

That is crazy, yeah. Well, people are pretty desperate for insurance right now, so they're buying a lot of crazy things, but that's still not the worst option, because you can buy Chinese or Russian based uh, russian backed insurance and it's important to really know, you know, is AMG paying my claim? No, the agent is never paying the claim. You better know what. What name is going to be on the check? That's paying your claim? Yeah, you don't have to talk to them again.

Capn Tinsley: 28:43

Right.

Kerry Gonzalez: 28:44

But back to the question about hurricane coverage. The hurricane coverage and I could spend hours on this, the hurricane coverage always relates back to your storm plan. So let's talk about you. So you're with GEICO, so read the fine print. So GEICO says that your storm coverage only applies if you update your storm plan for every named storm or within 14 days of changing locations. I've never done that.

Capn Tinsley: 29:14

I didn't even know. You can read the fine print.

Kerry Gonzalez: 29:17

Yes, but even if that's not in the fine print. So Geico requires you update your location regardless of whether it's a storm or not. Other companies just say look, you have to update your location for a named storm. 72 hours before a named storm comes in and you're in the cone of uncertainty. The entire market in insurance shuts down and they say real estate closing stop no more changes, no new business.

Kerry Gonzalez: 29:42

If you haul your boat out and put it on the hard because it was truly a better scenario, you just voided your coverage because your actual formal storm plan with the insurance company said you were going to be at XYZ Marina and you're not where you said you were going to be.

Capn Tinsley: 29:59

Okay, well, I do remember doing a storm plan and I said I was going to try to haul out.

Kerry Gonzalez: 30:05

So someone is asking a question about Markel. This is Hayden. Okay, okay, so, yeah. So Markel is famous for requiring a haul-out for every named storm. The reason I'm saying it and enunciating every word is because that means every. That means tropical storm, bertha. That means a Category 1.

Capn Tinsley: 30:33

That means every name storm you just have to plan on losing your boat. Well, I'm shocked. I got paid last time I do.

Kerry Gonzalez: 30:45

I do sell markel policies that have that, but normally they're for scenarios where someone is actually hauling out for the entire season. So for Hayden in particular, hayden, one of your best options, depending on where you're at will likely be a direct to market. It won't be through me, but we should have a separate online, offline conversation about where you should be going and how you should answer the questions. Um, you know, answering insurance questions is like going before a judge and the judge says, okay, uh, you know, tinsley, were you speeding? And you say, well, it's not really yes, it's not really no. Here's why I was driving really fast it's so situational, it's very situational.

Capn Tinsley: 31:28

Well, in his case, he does haul out. When he leaves the boat, he hauls it out and prepares it and chains it down, does all kinds of stuff, and is that the best scenario? The?

Kerry Gonzalez: 31:38

best scenario is to treat your contract as if it is like black and white requirement. So if you're not putting nine fenders out, don't put on your storm plan that you're putting nine fenders out, okay. I had an Island Packet owner on the phone today. I don't know if they're on this or not, so I'm not going to name them.

Capn Tinsley: 32:04

They might see it eventually. Yeah, if they are.

Kerry Gonzalez: 32:06

I'll apologize in advance, but we had to change their storm plan. Their storm plan had them in a different location. They know the drill, they've been with me a really long time and they're actually in a better scenario. They went north instead of south, which they don't normally do. So what we did was we pulled up the map and they truly do not want to be in a marina, and I get that.

Kerry Gonzalez: 32:31

I, you know I rarely have claims where someone is, you know, anchored out or in the mangroves tied out, and they really are good risk managers of their own you know destiny. But I have. I do have claims in marinas and a lot of times it's things you can't control. The cleat breaks loose, someone else's boat breaks loose, you can't control the projectiles, you know all kinds of things happen in marinas and I'm not saying one is right or one is wrong. What I am saying is that what's right and wrong is whatever's in your insurance contract. So what we did was we pulled up the map and you know their plan was to be up river a certain number of miles, and I warned them if you say you're 30 miles up north, I have to give a radius with a longitude and latitude. And so what I do is I do it a little bit more creatively for someone who's more of a full-time cruiser and we give a range or a plan A, b and C.

Kerry Gonzalez: 33:29

We build in caveat wording that still allows you to make a judgment call, because I don't know if you're watching the weather for next week, but you know, if you have an insurance company that says you must be outside the cone of uncertainty, you're really going to struggle to get outside that cone in a sailboat.

Kerry Gonzalez: 33:46

You cannot run in a sailboat, so it's better just to tell the truth and say look, I'm not running, here's my plan A, b and C. But then again, if you're with a state farm, they're not going to scrutinize your storm plan the same way as other markets. Just as an example, maybe we need to talk about other markets, but if you're making any changes, you have to make the changes more than 72 hours in advance of the storm or the cone of uncertainty. So we pulled up the map, but it changes. It does change and I get this often. It does change. So that's why we pull up the map. We do our plan a, b and c, we build in caveat wording, we give the underwriters an actual snapshot of the map. That map that says we're going to be in this box and we will either be in this marina or anchored up river in this box.

Capn Tinsley: 34:43

Okay, so this is his name is Goose. His nickname is Goose Holy guacamole. These policies have more holes in them than Swiss cheese.

Kerry Gonzalez: 34:53

Right, yeah, I told you like insurance boat insurance we're not your friend, you're not a good neighbor, not in good hands. It's a contract that allows you to get into marinas and if you are buying insurance for the true purpose of being financially whole, you better read every word in your policy or have an agent that's going to explain it to you. Transatlantic policy. So we wrote one this morning. It was a sailboat that was crossing the ocean. We had three operators that were going to do the crossing. The wife did not want to go with these three guys. They're all engineers. They're probably going to rebuild the boat on the way across the ocean.

Kerry Gonzalez: 35:38

One of the three had a prior transatlantic crossing in his experience resume. The other two did not. So we went back and forth, back and forth for three weeks, articulating their resume in different ways and slicing and dicing it. How many miles offshore had they been? How many days had they been offshore, what's the furthest nautical mile point that each one of them had been and how many times have they been there? Because if you're doing a transatlantic crossing, underwriters want to see that you have blue water experience, and blue water, from an underwriting perspective, is not defined as going down the ICW, jumping to the Bahamas and then jumping to the Caribbean, that is not blue water. But if you're doing the salty dog and you're jumping from somewhere in the Chesapeake over to Bermuda, going down to Antigua, that trek to Bermuda and down to the Caribbean is blue water, yeah, what about going across the Gulf?

Capn Tinsley: 36:46

Not blue water, really.

Kerry Gonzalez: 36:48

No, hmm. Well, geico and most of the US markets are not filed for Caribbean coverage. So you're looking at, you know, a foreign market like Lloyd's of London Syndicate, a European market, a Bermuda market, you know, or a Caribbean market. You're not looking at a US market anymore.

Capn Tinsley: 37:10

And that's if you're going across the Atlantic. Yeah, and if you're going across the Atlantic, each operator must be approved on their own merit and you have to have a minimum of two.

Kerry Gonzalez: 37:13

And that's if you're going across the atlantic, yeah, and if you're going across the atlantic, each operator must be approved on their own merit and you have to have a minimum of two to three operators because they want to say okay, right, look, if tinsley and hayden and I are all going across the ocean sorry to pick on you, but if we're crossing the ocean together and, uh, you start coughing and I have a heart attack and then Hayden's the only one left, there's no one to take the second watch.

Capn Tinsley: 37:40

Are they going to do a physical of us?

Kerry Gonzalez: 37:42

No, but they do want to see that they're. So if you're doing a crossing, it's based on a named operator policy and you have to have two to three named operators at a minimum. They want to see three who? Two to three named operators at a minimum. They want to see three who are approved as named operators.

Capn Tinsley: 37:59

What about there's a sailor who just, with no experience, just went from Oregon to Hawaii and he became really famous, is sailing with Phoenix. I didn't even think to ask him about his insurance.

Kerry Gonzalez: 38:13

Yes, that's a little different because there are markets that will do those waters, so it depends on the water. So then the map of the world. I mean, if we took the map of the world, you know, each, each insurance market would take the world map. I used to have one on my wall. It's gone, but they would draw a box and and draw like 12 boxes around the world of where each navigation box could go.

Kerry Gonzalez: 38:40

Ok, travelers will draw boxes that don't match with Hanover. Hanover will have boxes that don't match with Chubb. Chubb will have boxes that don't match with, you know, guardian, one of the one of the Caribbean markets, guardian, one of the one of the Caribbean markets. So it's really best to have a conversation with your agent about your monthly itinerary for the next 12 months. There is no such thing as trip coverage. So you want to have a. I have an itinerary form you can use as kind of a, you know, to develop your plan and you're going to have a conversation about. You know where are we going for 12 months and if that's going to change over time, you might change markets.

Capn Tinsley: 39:19

Okay, so the next two questions on my list are what are the pros and cons of bundling yacht insurance and other policies through companies like AIG, hanover or Chubb, and what unique opportunities do London markets offer yacht owners compared to US markets?

Kerry Gonzalez: 39:34

what unique opportunities do London markets offer yacht owners compared to US markets?

Capn Tinsley: 39:41

Okay, so London is surplus lines non-admitted, non-standard insurance.

Kerry Gonzalez: 39:43

Okay, what does that mean? It's a skeleton policy. You're getting less coverage for more money and higher deductibles, more conditions, more warranties, more limitations. London bad no, london is not always bad. If you have an older boat, london might be necessary, but London is especially something that you really need to read your policy on. So if I'm going to write insurance with Lloyd's of London, it's like the US market but it's syndicates, and if I write insurance there, I have to prove that I went to markets in the United States and got rejections for your insurance, just to be allowed, as an agent, to go to London.

Capn Tinsley: 40:22

Okay, all right, hayden, a local Caribbean policy. Won't let you sail to.

Kerry Gonzalez: 40:27

USA.

Capn Tinsley: 40:28

How do you cover that when you sail for USA?

Kerry Gonzalez: 40:31

No, you have to switch back and forth. So a Caribbean market is not a fit for you because they always look at your 12 month itinerary. So if you, your 12 month itinerary includes the U? S and the Caribbean, we're going to Lloyd's of London. Okay, and Lloyd's of London is like over 200 syndicates and there there are just a handful that write boat insurance.

Capn Tinsley: 40:57

That's a lot. That's a lot. I am definitely going to look into hiring you, or, if you even can you know for my boat?

Kerry Gonzalez: 41:10

Well, I'd be happy to give you advice. Like I said, you know, in certain scenarios I'm not the best option, but I can give you an objective opinion on who is Right, Because I'm definitely going to have to be more involved with my insurance policy.

Capn Tinsley: 41:23

Obviously I'm not doing that. I'm doing everything wrong and hoping for the best.

Kerry Gonzalez: 41:30

Let me give you a hint that if you're buying from a company that you get a different person on the phone every time and it's an 800 number. You better be an expert on your insurance.

Capn Tinsley: 41:39

Yeah, that's my situation. How do named operator policies work, and when might permissive use be a better?

Kerry Gonzalez: 41:47

You talked about named operators, if you're in the United States water and you're with a United States insurance company, you're not always, but likely on a permissive use form. Geico is a permissive use form. Geico, progressive, chubb Travelers they're all permissive use forms.

Capn Tinsley: 42:06

And what does?

Kerry Gonzalez: 42:06

that mean? It means, Chinsley, if you tell me I can operate your boat and you give me permission and just like giving me permission to drive your beautiful car, I'm covered. But if we're crossing the ocean or we're going to a London market or non-standard insurance, you're going to have a named operator policy that'll be based on my resume and my specific merits about whether or not I'm even capable.

Capn Tinsley: 42:30

Okay, so I had. I had someone move my boat when I broke my ankle and the captain said add me to your policy. I contacted him and they said you're already covered for that.

Kerry Gonzalez: 42:58

All of a sudden it falls under the Longshoremen's Act, which is a federal statute that says you're responsible for their illnesses, injuries and diseases. It doesn't necessarily mean that your insurance is going to pay for that financial responsibility, because if you don't add them it's not covered. So there are some companies that will include coverage for incidental crew one or two on an occasional basis. But you don't know that until you reach out to your agent or underwriter and they tell you it's covered and you want to tell them okay, I'm hiring this person for this many days, here's where they're going and they are paid crew.

Capn Tinsley: 43:30

So that would be just like in the case of Geico going into the portal and emailing them, and then they answer and say you're good, that's my proof right there, as long as you get confirmation back, then you are good.

Kerry Gonzalez: 43:45

But make sure that you're not just emailing them and, assuming that you're good, you can never assume that.

Capn Tinsley: 43:52

I think that's the message for today. Yeah, the tip of the day is you got to go through that policy and know it, and it's all black and white, it's literal, it's very literal.

Kerry Gonzalez: 44:05

But back to that storm question. Just because this is perfect timing to give everyone this reminder, make sure you read your policy and read the fine print and then go back and read the applications and all the supporting documents you provided to see if you make need to make any changes before you're in the cone of uncertainty.

Capn Tinsley: 44:26

Because once you're in that 72 hour, you mean like a plan, like your hurricane plan or storm plan?

Kerry Gonzalez: 44:34

Yeah, exactly so. For example, we were talking about lithium. If you don't have confirmation back from your underwriter that you had lithium and they were covering it, it doesn't matter if it's a named storm issue or not. Make sure you've disclosed everything. You've read everything, because it doesn't matter if it's connected to the fact there's a named storm coming. If you have not disclosed everything, you can void your coverage.

Capn Tinsley: 45:00

And again, if it's in a survey that they approved, that doesn't count. I mean, you really should email it to them in the portal and get a confirmation back.

Kerry Gonzalez: 45:10

Yeah, because they're taking everything into consideration, not just the survey. Sometimes the applications will even ask the question of whether or not you have lithium yeah, and I can't remember. Okay, there are a few markets that even ask if you had solar. So just make sure that if you think that you've added risk to your boat or your location or your captain crew situation or your equipment, make sure you tell the underwriter or the agent and get approval back that it's covered.

Capn Tinsley: 45:41

Is that for everything? I mean? What if it's like you get a new autopilot?

Kerry Gonzalez: 45:46

Yeah, well, that one you should definitely tell them, because that's usually worth the discount.

Capn Tinsley: 45:51

Well, but I already had one, but a new one would give you a discount, well, if it depends on if geico included that in your discount list when you first applied. So just you know if you, I'm gonna have to start from scratch.

Capn Tinsley: 46:08

okay, yeah, because I'm definitely in the uh, this area right here is, in my opinion, is more risky than the West Coast of Florida, you know, in the Northern Gulf Coast. Yeah, okay, and you can add whatever. But I am going to ask you about some liveaboard. What's the definition? What's the liveaboard definition, insurance terms and how can it impact coverage we talked to? They don't really like that. They don't really like liveaboards.

Kerry Gonzalez: 46:35

That's a great question, tinsley, because people will say that they're a liveaboard and then they use my address or their long lost cousin's address, or their mother or their cousin, whatever. That's not an acceptable answer. You cannot use someone's address where you do not live and say that you're not a. That's not an acceptable answer. You cannot use someone's address where you do not live and say that you're not a liveaboard, that you're not a liveaboard, do not want to ensure live aborts, so this is a very important question.

Kerry Gonzalez: 47:23

Um, if you have a green Cove Springs address and you do not have a mortgage deed or lease somewhere with space where you have things and you go sometimes, then you are a liveaboard.

Capn Tinsley: 47:38

If you okay. If you you, what about okay? So if you give, if I'm a liveaboard, but I have an address where I get mail, is that what you're saying?

Kerry Gonzalez: 47:49

Is that? So? Let me give you an example. I've got a guest room and if I tell you okay, tinsley, I'm going to give you a lease and you're going to pay me a dollar every year for my guest room and you're going to keep some clothes here and once a year you're going to come here and you're going to use my guest room. That's very close to Mac.

Capn Tinsley: 48:20

You are not a liveaboard because you have signed a lease that says that you have actual space in my home and there is legal tender exchanged with that dollar. So you can't even have a house that you use as a home base and you're living aboard, you know, 10 months a year. You're still not a liveaboard.

Kerry Gonzalez: 48:29

Well, if I have a house and I'm on and I have things in the house and I'm paying a mortgage or I have a deed for that house, but I'm on my boat 365 days a year. I'm not a liveaboard, so that's a good thing. That's a great thing, but most people don't last very long doing that. It's a frustrating situation. A two-handed Atlantic crossing is not.

Capn Tinsley: 48:58

it's not insurable well, this guy that just crossed the pacific by himself with, let me tell.

Kerry Gonzalez: 49:05

Let me tell you that this is a really good transition to um. You know this point about the fact that you can buy insurance for things that normal markets or even London markets would not cover. So you can buy insurance from Edward Williams, which is backed by Ion Insurance, which is basically this tiny little suite in the American Samoas. And if you just Google Ion Insurance or Edward Williams, you're going to see hundreds of websites that illustrate that they're not really paying claims and they're written on a Costa Rica form that says you're waiving all your rights, including mediation, arbitration, legal action against them. So you're up the creek without a paddle, right? We don't want that, edward Williams. Yeah, and you can. You can buy Spheric insurance. You can buy Chinese, russian backed insurance.

Kerry Gonzalez: 50:02

So if you want to do a crossing single-handedly, my best advice to you is you know, don't buy insurance, because you're you're going to be a better risk manager. I know a lot of people who do it. Maybe stay in touch with someone like me or with some of the teachers in the industry. Cruisers University is full of people who do transatlantic crossings, many of them by themselves. They have an incredible network. The Seven Seas Cruising Association has an incredible network. I love this block parent community in the boating world, where we take care of each other, we take care of our own. It works better than insurance. So if you're doing a transatlantic crossing by yourself, you're not going to find good insurance. So do the crossing and then get insurance once you get there.

Capn Tinsley: 50:54

Okay, and I do want to acknowledge a question over on Instagram um left cedar that's his username to avoid hurricane premiums. How far North do I need to take my boat? I don't know if you can. Oh, hurricane premiums, okay, how?

Kerry Gonzalez: 51:08

far North. So it depends on the market. So the cutoff lines are the. Have an independent agent who's having this kind of dialogue with you and and make sure that you know you're telling them. Here's my plan. How do I optimize the, the cost. The best way and you know what we usually do is we, if you're, if your boat is eligible for five markets, we'll give you all five markets. We'll tell you the cutoff line. It's not a pretty thing, it's an Excel spreadsheet. We'll tell you the cutoff line for all five markets and then you can compare. Ok, can I be north of Moorhead City? No, I don't really like that. Can I be north of Cumberland Island? Or can I be between the Florida Georgia line and Cumberland Island? Or can I be between the Florida Georgia line and Cumberland Island? You know it really depends on the market. So you really need to see a comparison snapshot of all the markets.

Capn Tinsley: 52:22

Okay, Wow, Okay. What common time you covered this. What time restrictions exist for Bahamas or Caribbean cruising? How can owners plan ahead? Well, Bahamas is 90 days.

Kerry Gonzalez: 52:36

I only did for Geico. So if you have American, modern or Geico, you're looking at 90 days. If you have Progressive, because you're not a Liveaboard member you're going to have 30 days and that's for the whole policy year. That's not 30 days at a time. If you have state farm, you have no restriction whatsoever on the time you spend in the Bahamas, but you do have a restriction on where you go in the Bahamas. I have a map I can share of where they're cut, because they basically cut off the bottom tip of the Bahamas and most people can live with it because their premiums are about half of the rest of the industry.

Capn Tinsley: 53:16

OK when you say where. Ok, so the bottom do they restrict, like Nassau, because it's dangerous Rather than being pigeonholed into a corner.

Kerry Gonzalez: 53:25

I'd rather just give the box as it stands today, with a date. This is where it is today, because I don't ever want to be quoted on. Ok, here's what's going to apply a month from now.

Capn Tinsley: 53:37

Right, okay, and I do want to show your website here. Um this you had pointed out that this is where, um you can apply for insurance.

Kerry Gonzalez: 53:48

Yeah, and if you apply for insurance and you're a better fit for State Farm or Geico or a market that we don't work with maybe the Caribbean, if you apply there and we see your application and we know you're a better fit for a Caribbean market, for example, we will handhold your application and put it on a platter for the other market and we'll get your permission. Hey, can we share this with the Barbados broker? You'll say yes, we'll get that permission in writing and then we'll share it and you'll be off and running and you can use us as a sounding board to give you, you know, objective advice on the storm plan assistance.

Kerry Gonzalez: 54:29

I like this right here Storm plan assistance.

Capn Tinsley: 54:31

I like that. Okay, so we just go here for anybody watching that wants to check out what you have to offer, because obviously we need some hands held here because we are not experts. But we could just go there and apply and do we get you or do we just contact you? Can we just contact you directly?

Kerry Gonzalez: 54:50

starts with me because, um, I mean, as you can probably guess, uh, we, we get referrals from a lot of agents that don't write non-standard business, so we get a lot of the highly unusual or challenging situations. Or people have had claims or have older boats and you know, if you've had I did have a there's probably someone on this call that I talked to earlier in the week that has had a claim and they would tell you look, if you, if you've had a claim and you just need a sounding board on how the process works. I'm not a adjuster, I'm not a public adjuster, I don't charge for it, but I'm happy to be a sounding board for anyone who's just really struggling with a situation like that.

Capn Tinsley: 55:37

Okay, all right. Well, okay, how do storm plans and caretaker arrangements factor into coverage for absentee or seasonal owners? You kind of covered that, or did you covered everything with that that you want to say on this call?

Kerry Gonzalez: 55:52

So let's talk about what an absentee owner is. Most markets will define an absentee owner as someone who, who lives or has an address of a hundred or 150 miles away from their boat. So, even if you're on your boat all the time, if your address says something else, you may still be an absentee owner. You know, depending on the insurance market. How many miles did you say? Well, some of them are 100 and some of them are 150. Okay, Some of them want to know that you're not leaving your boat for more than 14 days at a time. Some of them want you to specifically outline here are the months or weeks that I won't be on my boat.

Kerry Gonzalez: 56:30

It depends on your market so have a conversation with your agent, so that you know do you do?

Capn Tinsley: 56:37

I mentioned geico. They have to update every 14 days if you're on the move, so are there any other companies? I mean, we won't hold you to every single one, but is it the only one, or the other ones too, the other?

Kerry Gonzalez: 56:49

ones only require that you update and, and I'd say, 80 of the other markets require that you update your named storm location. Okay, not all the time. Geico wants you to update your location all year amazing.

Capn Tinsley: 57:06

So I'm com. I'm leaving in a couple months and I'll be gone for three months, so I'm going to have to every 14 days.

Kerry Gonzalez: 57:13

Okay, it's like you know, your ADP payroll every two weeks. You're going to update your location.

Capn Tinsley: 57:20

Okay, wow, okay, all right. Well, we've been on here for 57 minutes, so what else would you like to say that I ignorantly didn't ask?

Kerry Gonzalez: 57:31

Well, anytime I do this, it really is a consumer service. Thank you, tinsley. Would tell you that I did try to pull some other agents into this and you know we're a small and mighty agency. I am constantly apologizing because I can't return enough phone calls in an efficient time manner. So if you're one of those people, again I'm sorry. We're working on that, we're building our staff, but we're really in this business because we love it and we're trying to give back and a lot of times we do work to give you an objective opinion in a way where we never get paid, and that's just our heart in this. But one of the ways that, if you're interested, you could thank us for this unpaid advice that we give is give back to Hope Fleet. So Hope Fleet is an organization that we sponsor and we provide supplies to. They use boats to bring supplies to the Bahamas, the Caribbean.

Capn Tinsley: 58:37

What is that? Hopefleetcom Hopefleetorg.

Kerry Gonzalez: 58:43

So if you have an island packet and you are going to the Bahamas, they have partners in the Bahamas and they will provide you with a vetted partner where you can bring supplies and you don't have to buy all the supplies. They are always trying to get supplies there, so they'll meet you at the dock, load you up with the supplies. They bring garden buckets and school supplies and disaster relief supplies and construction equipment after disasters and they also have a child trafficking reporting system. So you know a lot of trafficking happens by boat, so check out their website. A lot of people ask me how do you you know, why do you do this? How do you get rewarded? The reward for the situations we're talking about, where we don't get paid, is for people to give back to Hope Fleet.

Capn Tinsley: 59:31

Okay, so, so, just so I understand. So if I'm going to the Bahamas, I can stop somewhere in Florida and load up some stuff and take it, or is that what you're saying?

Kerry Gonzalez: 59:39

Exactly Because the advantage is they have a partnership not only with local vetted organizations on the ground in the Bahamas, where they need the supplies, but they also have a partnership with customs. So they give customs a manifest of everything you have on board and you never get flagged, you just clear right through customs. No questions asked.

Capn Tinsley: 1:00:00

Yeah, okay, so there's specific locations in Florida.

Kerry Gonzalez: 1:00:06

If you just tell them what your itinerary is, they're all over and they'll come and meet you.

Capn Tinsley: 1:00:11

Nice.

Kerry Gonzalez: 1:00:12

Okay, that's very interesting and it's actually really a big deal, especially after hurricanes. So if you start watching, you know after November 1st, you know usually there are places that really appreciate the help.

Capn Tinsley: 1:00:27

Sure, yeah, okay, yeah, we're doing. We do that all the time here A lot of the real estate agents, the brokerages. If there's a hurricane in Louisiana, we load up stuff and take it over there, or if it's you know, hurricane Michael, over, you know, east of here. So yeah, that is a great service. I would love to maybe get involved with that when I go to the Bahamas.

Kerry Gonzalez: 1:00:48

Yeah, for sure.

Capn Tinsley: 1:00:50

Okay, You're going to hear from me because I'm I am horrified at my coverage right now and what I don't know.

Kerry Gonzalez: 1:00:59

For the self-service website for Geico and then I will send you there's. Honestly, their storm plan is actually a very simple and comprehensive compared to others I've seen, so send form and it's really easy to make the updates.

Capn Tinsley: 1:01:13

And there is something forming in the Caribbean. There is something in the Atlantic, but there's also something forming right now in the Caribbean. Those usually come towards me. So, yeah, it's the time to do it, right, yeah, okay. Well, thank you so much, and again I want to put up that email of yours. You're just a wealth of information.

Kerry Gonzalez: 1:01:35

I know we probably just touched on so if anyone's at the Annapolis Boat Show and you have a lot more questions, come visit us on Saturday at the Annapolis Boat Show. We do a free continental breakfast at our booth okay, and Hayden says I need Carrie's help too.

Capn Tinsley: 1:01:53

I will email you. And a goose says that was golden. All right, thank you Okay. Thank you so much, and we'll go ahead and end it now. Thank you, and I'll be in touch. Salty Abandon out.