We Recover Loudly - Serving Essential Hospitality Conversations

S2 Episode 010 - Andrew Clarke - From Fire Gone Out to Mastering the Flame

• Michelle Righini • Season 2 • Episode 10

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On this week's episode, we are joined by Acme Fire Cult Leader, chef Andrew Clarke. Andrew Clarke shares about his childhood upbringing being around flames to mastering the art of live fire cooking. His journey has been one of transformation, both in the kitchen and in his personal life. As we discuss the timeline of his career, Andrew shares anecdotes from his early days as a musician to the key moments that shaped his path as a culinary expert, all while maintaining his signature beard in the fiery atmosphere of his craft.

This episode delves into the challenges of kitchen life and the importance of mental health in the hospitality industry. Andrew Clarke openly talks about his personal struggles with depression and emphasizes the need for support networks within the profession. His work with Pilot Light offers hope for those facing the intense environment of the culinary world, highlighting the significance of self-care when working with the flames of the kitchen.

 Andrew's resilience and commitment to wellbeing in the hospitality sector showcase the importance of nourishing the spirit alongside perfecting a dish. If you're interested in the balance between humor, wellness, and creating a supportive workplace environment, tune in for a heartfelt discussion that could change your perspective on success in the industry. Each story shared contributes to building a healthier and more fulfilled community of chefs and culinary enthusiasts.

Check out Andrew on instagram @chefandrewclarke and @acmefirecult

For more information on We Recover Loudly and to reach out for speaking engagements or support email hello@werecoverloudly.com

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Speaker 1:

Hello and welcome to this week's episode of we Recover Loudly. This week I'm excited to be joined by the Acme Colt leader, andrew Clarke. Andrew is an award-winning chef, mental health advocate and live fire veteran With 25 years in hospitality as a chef French strenteur he is really well known for his previous restaurants Brunswick House, which I love, and St Leonard's as well as co-founding the mental health campaign Pilot Light. In his spare time, andrew works as a shamanic healer and ceremonial spaceholder, working with plants, medicines and music, which all really makes sense, really, when you think about the fire stuff, you know it's all that alchemy. But most importantly of all, he is the owner of one impressively long beard and I have absolutely no idea how you've managed to keep that, considering your love of fire cooking. So before we talk about mental health in the industry, please explain how have you still got that beard?

Speaker 2:

How Well. It used to be well over twice the size when I used to cook. I don't cook as much these days, but whenever I did I used to plait it. And while it was plaited you know I plait it every week, give it a good brush on a Sunday, but nothing damaged it. So it just got longer and longer and longer and it wasn't until the pandemic that I just I undone the plait and I haven't I rarely plaited ever since. So it started to shrink. It's, it's very small now.

Speaker 1:

Who knew that plaits were in fact a fired fire safety kind of tool? I mean please don't, don't take that as gospel, anyone. What do you mean? She burnt, try her hair and plaits.

Speaker 2:

You need to tuck it down your apron. That's. That's the safeguard. It just helps. Gather it all together and and go down the apron, yeah.

Speaker 1:

Fashionable and functional, love it. So we've got the important stuff out the way. So I guess we can just talk about, you know, mental health. Now, that little tiny subject, why not? Well, well, before we talk about pilot light, you know, I'd love to know a little bit about your background in terms of, like, did you always want to be a cult leader? Did you always have this thirst for fire? Yeah and yeah, domination.

Speaker 2:

Well, fire has. Fire has been an important part of my life and I think that you know we often romanticize stories or you know we talk about things that made us who we are. Sometimes it's obvious and other times maybe not so, and some people don't always have a backstory that aligns with. You know where they are in the present, but I guess a fire was always important, not necessarily for cooking, but I grew up in a very old house where it was heated by open fires, so we had a fire in every room. It was an old kind of Victorian Gothic building, big but empty and cold. So you know I've had to learn quite an early age how to light a fire and keep the place warm. And I do remember, you know there's a lot of memories of being I don't know 10 years old, learning my times table and other kind of bits of homework around a fire with my dad and watching him kind of pouring petrol on it to get it going. And I definitely took to Manning the Grill family barbecues. There's a lot of photos of me with tongs in my hand and, you know, kind of dominating the grill. So it was definitely there.

Speaker 2:

And then I found myself. I never wanted to be a chef. I was a musician. That was when my life was going. I could cook as a kid. I loved food. So you know I was always interested in food, wanting to eat it. I, you know, book cookbooks when I was 13, 14, book, my first chef knife when I was 14. So you know, food was important. And while I was a guitar you know I'm still a guitarist I wanted to be in a rock band or the world, and a certain incident happened to me when I was 20. And it just knocked the course of my life and I ended up in a kitchen and I think for the first few. Well, actually, the second kitchen I worked in had a wood-fired oven, a pizza oven, and you know it wasn't just pizzas we were cooking in it, we was, you know, chunks of halibut and steaks, and I just remember how important or how different the food tasted versus the first restaurant I cooked in. Even the pizzas and the prep that went on the pizzas, everything was smoky and you know, really, really flavoured them. So that was another little marker that stood with me about the importance of fire cooking. And you know I did.

Speaker 2:

I went to all over Kent and London learning in various kitchens very conventional ways of cooking. But you know, always getting back to you know, if I was at home getting back to the fire, cooking over fire, it was just not a thing in the UK other than maybe a wood-fired pizza oven. It just it really wasn't a thing. And I remember being at I think it was Salt Yard when we got our first kind of big green egg in the kitchen and I was like, well, I've got a bit of skill behind a barbecue, so I'm going to jump in here and start using this. And then, and then, when we opened the first Reaters in Hackney, which was in 2013, then we, you know, the first thing we suspect, was a big green egg, so we wanted fire there and it's been down here ever since.

Speaker 2:

I was very fortunate enough to kind of start cooking at Mito-Pio when it came to the UK and I don't know, you come in a bit of a poster boy for it at various times, and I think that was it the moment that people started putting these big green eggs in kitchens. And then, like the Japanese Conroy Grill, I went headfirst into it. All my restaurants there had to be some form of live fire cooking. And then when we opened St Leonard's Jackson Boxer and I it was based on a little idea I had about I originally wanted to do like a duck inspired or Southwest France inspired duck restaurant and have a big fireplace. So that's what we put in with St Leonard's and that's it.

Speaker 2:

Unfortunately, we got out of St Leonard's before the pandemic. I may be fortunate, actually. But then when creating Acme Firecult it was there was kind of unfinished business. There was things I wanted to finish off. But to arrive to this point now, acme was really just supposed to have. We just wanted to have fun again and make restaurants fun. And while we all follow a certain path with the blueprint of restaurants and how they you know how we set them up and how they operate I just wanted to do something slightly different and that's where we're at. We did Acme with just £30,000 in our pocket and as we make money, we reinvest and it's a much less stressful journey than it has been in the past.

Speaker 1:

Wow, what a journey. I love that You're like I'm not too sure where it came from, the whole fire thing, you know, I mean I grew up in a house with open fires in every room and it could be that, andrew, that could have planted the seeds. And you know, I got my first chef knife at 14. But again, you know, I'm not getting the first chef knife, although in our industry most 14 year olds are getting their first chef job, that's for sure. What a beautiful progression and it is interesting, isn't it? Fire, like you were talking about, the fun and the playfulness, and, you know, for something that is so destructive, there is also a beautiful kind of magicalness to it and a mystery to it and a whimsy almost isn't there which kind of plays into that whole just going out and having fun in a restaurant, not having to be so serious.

Speaker 2:

Yeah, I mean, since kind of leaving Brunswick and St Leonard's and then the pandemic happened, I felt a little burnt out before that. Anyway, you know, I was kind of I just needed I was losing my love for running restaurants or being in restaurants. And then the pandemic came along and I was just like I'm definitely not owning a restaurant again, fuck that, I went out, and. But I went on my own kind of shamanic journey while we were locked down and, you know, got myself I had to heal certain things that were a problem in my life. And as I went down this, this shamanic path, it kind of reconnected me with what was actually really important in my life and and it, you know it, guided me to say look, you know, trust the fire, trust the plants. You know, there is still, there is still room for you in this industry. So you know, the fire has been my greatest teacher, I think.

Speaker 1:

Yeah, and I think it's one of the things that you've I've seen that you said before and it's something that we all that we have in common with this show and with quite a few you know. It's about sharing your story to help others and I think I really enjoy the symbolism that the fire kind of brings to your story. And even then, as you were saying, and I was really burnt out, you know, now I'm relit. You know the marketing rights itself here, andrew.

Speaker 2:

I know, you know, this pilot light is a little flame as well, so you know.

Speaker 1:

I don't think that's not passed me by. I did wonder, though is that, do you get really fed up now that, like every birthday and every Christmas, people get you something fire related? You're like oh no way another fire extinguisher.

Speaker 2:

I would still room for that what's?

Speaker 1:

that Is that a fireman's hat. Oh well, there you go. Well, now you know what you're getting at Christmas. Yeah, we got it. But yeah, I mean, I do, I love the symbolism of it and you know, the fire is absolutely fascinating in what it does to food and just the way it changes. You know, and I just I asked some incredible. I went to Bubbler last yesterday, which is amazing, and if you haven't been to Bubbler yet, go delightful.

Speaker 1:

It's so good. I had these Brussels sprouts and, like you know, they were really, really crispy and the way that they'd almost gone to the edge of being too far. So it just had that bitterness and you know but which the fire created. And then, like, we had what's it called, we had some dates, and they have a hummus at the moment which has got dates and something else because it's kind of Christmassy, and again the dates had kind of like that bitterness, but within that there's a sweetness now and it's quite fascinating how fire just has such a different effect, doesn't it?

Speaker 2:

It's the nuances that you can get. You can deliver to the plate, to the dish that you can't get in conventional restaurants, and beyond that, I mean, you know, as a chef, I loved working in conventional restaurants. I loved, you know, cooking services, intense services, I loved being the best at cooking things and, you know, just rising through the ranks and I just I was very competitive in kitchens and you know, I wanted to be the best at cooking stuff, but then when you know you cook over fire, you're not just cooking things.

Speaker 2:

you know perfectly, or as good as you can. You've also got to keep an eye on the heat and you know knowing when to cook and when to add more fuel and when to pull things away. I mean, there's just an added attention to detail that you need to throw into it. So I love that. You know, I welcome that with open arms.

Speaker 1:

Yes, again, the way you describe it, and I don't mean to compare you to a burger restaurant, but I used to work. It all makes sense. I used to work with a company called Irola Tum and it's one of these. It's a better burger place. You know, we've got this huge grill and like just to watch the owner Rupert like moving burgers around because he was moving it to the different heat sources, and just like such a small thing like that to see how much skill was required to do something like that. I mean, like you say, it's not just a case of throwing some meat on a grill and hoping for the best. There's real skill and artistry. I mean, is it chemistry? Is it physics? Were you quite scientific at school?

Speaker 1:

I will say one thing no, I wasn't, but I was going to say you'd be the first one in our industry that was.

Speaker 2:

Well, I did. I obsessed over Modernist cuisine. There's five big books and Modernist cuisine at home. You know this was all about the science of cooking and understanding that. And you know there were great chapters on the flame and how it works and you know how the radiation works on it. So understanding that has helped me understand the flame way more and that was a small part of the book.

Speaker 2:

There's obviously so many different techniques and things, but I do like understanding, perhaps from a Modernist point of view, from what you know, the science of cooking and how we can apply that to a very primitive form of cooking. You know what I mean. But the other thing, when I said, like you know, the flame is the best teacher, is that I always felt that you know, I'm like I see a lot of chefs and they'll cook over fire and that's it, and they move things around and it's fine. But I kind of meditate with the flame. You know, I watch it, I stare at it. I, you know I don't take my eyes off things and when I say I've studied it, I mean I'm really intense in that and it's not.

Speaker 2:

I'm hoping it doesn't sound pretentious, but there is just cooking over it or just really looking for the finest little detail and where to put things and how to hold things, when things are ready, when things need more fuel, just the and the more you study it, and that's not something that you can do overnight. You really have to do that day in, day out and you pick it up, because then it becomes instinct and you, you know you can move around like your guy with the burger patties. You just keep moving thing. You're in a flow, you can't continuously move in stuff.

Speaker 2:

I love that. You know, if I work I don't cook as much as I'd like to, but you know, if I've ever worked to act me, I'll say that I'll do the grill. Everyone you know can play, but just let me do the grill. And you know I can just come from there, I can be in my little flow state, I can meditate with the flame and and I have fun and hopefully I make it fun as well.

Speaker 1:

Oh my God, I've never wanted to get an open fire in my house, more like. But you're right, when it comes to cooking, and certainly at your level, and you know if we're thinking about like pastry work and stuff and like the emotion that you put into. Like my dad bakes is was a baker back in the day and he still bakes but if he is not having a good day and something's not going right, his bread you can tell, and I every. You know and it's like I know it sounds again a bit like woo, wee, woo, but I swear you can feel the emotions that are in the bread if he's not making it or something, because what one little thing goes wrong and he's like that's it, you know, thrown away type thing. But again, it's about that. It's on that. What's it called? That kind of like synergy that you're having with your ingredients and your craft, where it does become meditative, almost like there's nothing around it. It's kind of quite fabulous.

Speaker 2:

You have to be at one with it, you know, and whether it is the flame or whether it's the stove, you know. You, when you tune into what you're doing and you can become one with it, then you can make things happen. And I do believe that you know. This is with my shamanic hat on now, you know, we believe in energy and you know, a lot of energy we can quantify.

Speaker 2:

And I always use this analogy to a lot of friends, where you've walked into a room where people have been arguing and you kind of feel that something's off. Have you had that yourself?

Speaker 2:

Well, yeah, it's energy and it's imprinted there and you know, I believe, that travels through food you know if you, if you're getting, I guarantee you'll find certain chefs that are joyous and bring lots of light. Jeremy Lee is a good example of this, where he's just such an amazing energy and his food sings on a plate. You can feel the energy of that, you can feel the smile, you can, and I truly believe you get the chef's personality. You get their happiness or their, you know their anger. But you know, food really is about feeding people. It shouldn't be about ego and it shouldn't be about you know, look how great I am as a chef. It should be about look what I want to give you, look how I want to feed you and, you know, nourish you, and so we should be putting all good things into food. You know, our kitchen should be happy places, you know.

Speaker 1:

That's so interesting that you say that. So my background is, in front of, house focused and bar focused, and I used to do a lot of cocktail bar training and I always used to say to the team, when they were shaking the drinks, that they needed to shake it with a smile, because the drink will tell if they're grumpy. And I would say it just to be a little bit, I don't know. I guess a little bit, you know, cute or something, just like a little joke, but I genuinely meant it because I didn't know.

Speaker 1:

I felt that, like that, you can taste the difference between a drink that's made with care and intention versus a drink that's made out of you know. Oh, my God, I got to do this and I get it. Like bars, restaurants, they're crazy busy, and that's really kind of interesting, though, because how I'm sure you can relate the amount of kitchens that we, we work in or we experience that, the tension, the anger, the frustration, you know, and again, it's almost that like stereotypical style of kitchen, but if that's all getting poured into the food, yeah there was some studies done.

Speaker 2:

There's a lot of studies. I mean, I know there was a Japanese scientist that did a study on water molecules and talking to some water molecules you know angrily and then some water molecules with you know lovingly, and then he froze both of them and the ones that were spoken to angrily didn't crystallize perfectly, whereas the ones that were spoken to lovingly had these beautiful crystals. And when you think that you know water, it contains ions and you know the atmosphere contains ions. They're of negative ions and they're positive ions, so and we're made of like 80% water.

Speaker 1:

That's gonna save.

Speaker 2:

We are water, absolutely so there's even more reason for us to be talking nice to ourselves. Our subconscious does not know, it can't differentiate. If we're talking about other people, we're talking about ourselves. So even using bad language about or getting into those those talks or gossip about other people, your subconscious doesn't know that. So if you're calling someone else an idiot, you might as well be calling yourself an idiot or subconscious is going to get that.

Speaker 2:

But then when we look at it on the you know a molecule level of the fact that we're mostly water, then you know let's, let's do good things for ourselves.

Speaker 2:

Let's meditate, let's talk in with positive language and let's see how, you know, our lives change for the better. It certainly happened to me. So you know, I'd like to share that. I would say another thing as well. Like I'm not a religious person whatsoever, I'm deeply spiritual but I don't believe in religion. But there are things that come up within religions that have maybe there's a certain we could question what it is. And this thing about holy water in Christianity, you know, speak into holy water. The water's blessed beforehand. So it could be that the water's blessed for a reason. Do you know what I mean? I often just, you know, if I've got a bottle of water, I often thank it before drinking it and you know, maybe say a little prayer to that because you know I want it to heal me and I feel good.

Speaker 1:

Yeah, I mean, I know I mentioned, called you a cult leader at the beginning, but I'm, I'm, I'm buying in while you're selling to get me on this pyramid. No, it's really. No, I really love it. No, that's I because it's. Yeah, there's such a difference. It's like the same for front house you know we talk about services, hospitality and you know it's the same for the kitchen. You can either make food or you can actually pour something into it and make something that is nourishing for the person you're serving but, like the way you've described, is nourishing for you as well. You know that you're actually, as a chef, being able to heal, to process, to grow, whatever In that whole process. It's not actually if you choose to, because you can do it either way, but if you, you know if you choose to kind of be more spiritual in that respect or be more kind of in tune to your own intentions, there there's just like such a different way of existing in kitchens.

Speaker 2:

Like when I'm working, whether we do the events or I'm working in the restaurant. You know I've always, I always bless the fire when I light a fire and you know I get my guys doing that and yeah, it's very culty, but you know I always have some.

Speaker 1:

I read roads on, you know.

Speaker 2:

I like to have some chanting.

Speaker 2:

But I get, I bless the fire and it's just that. That's part of my practice. But here's the thing just if I encourage others to do it, it's more like you know, I'll put a little prayer for myself on the fire. I'll bless the restaurant, the guests, the staff. You know our service and that's for me and it's just a little. It's my first connection with the fire for that day, for that service. So I do that and that's my journey. But I will offer the little sacred woods around to the other guys that just put something on, because, more than anything, I don't necessarily need them to be jump on the spiritual path with me, I just want them to get their mind in a positive frame. So by putting something on, putting some goodness, on.

Speaker 2:

I know that I'm starting that service with the team on a positive foot.

Speaker 1:

Honestly, I couldn't agree and applaud this more like it's yeah, wow, okay, what do I want to? Pick a question, shell? So many things I want to ask you. Were you always this way in the kitchen? Take us back to 20 year old Andrew 22, 23, 24. Did you always find this connection? I mean because the way that you're talking now is absolutely wonderful, but obviously it comes, does it come, with the privilege of being very successful and therefore you can be more what's the word more kind of like self decisive. You know you can't just do what you're told, type thing. What was the experience like for you earlier on in your cooking career Once?

Speaker 2:

I got it just backwards just to address what you just said. I think, yes, I probably am. I do have more. You know I'm my own boss and have been my own boss for 10 years or so. So I do, you know, I've kind of earned that and you know, anyone can get to that stage where they buy their own. If you set your own business up and you become your own boss, then you can arguably you can make these choices yourself. So there, is that.

Speaker 2:

But to go back to the original question, you know, yeah, I was a very different person, unfortunately. Where do we start? I wanted to be a musician. I mentioned that I ended up jumping in a kitchen to play for my music and I just happened to be good at it. So I would get a little bit more money, a little bit more responsibility, and then I would have to sacrifice a gig here. At the time I was, I'd gone from kind of playing metal in bands to being a house DJ, so I was doing that. So maybe I'd miss a gig because I need I'm needed on a Friday night, saturday night.

Speaker 1:

Sorry, are we just going to gloss over that? That is quite the musical jump, amazing.

Speaker 2:

I still love house and tech, house and stuff, but you know I've been playing guitar for over 30 years, so you know I always come back to the guitar somehow. But yeah, I thought my life was going to be within music and jumping into a kitchen was really just to pay for the music. And you know, because you're struggling musician, you can't do a lot of things, so I just have to be good at cooking. I get a little bit more money, a little bit more responsibility and five years rolls around and by that point I'm running one of Kent's best restaurants and I'm like, oh shit, I'm definitely not a musician anymore.

Speaker 2:

You know, I'm a head chef of a very well known restaurant in Kent that was just doing some really good things, and I was. I had a good team around me, but I know that I didn't, because I kind of went through the ranks kind of quickly. I never really got the training on how to manage people. So I thought I was, you know, doing this kind of amazing food and everyone's on the journey with me. Ego was kicking in and you know I'm thinking that everyone had to behave like Marco P.

Speaker 2:

I like I'll go to Ramsay in order to be up there, and it was like if you can't keep up my kitchen and, and you know, yeah, he didn't take me very long, it didn't take me very long to understand that no one's on that journey with me. I, you know, very few were, and everyone needed to be managed differently. When I started losing chefs because I was being an asshole, then I'm the one that's doing more work and you, then I'll get anyone to work for you. So I look, I learned that very quickly. It was a, it was a, a Fleeting moment and luckily, you know, I did have some guidance from my bosses to say, look, get your fucking ass back on track and do it this way. But it was I, you know, I jumped into this first head chef role wanting to tell the world that I existed and I just didn't behave the way I should have behaved, but I didn't know otherwise. Now I learned my lesson. I jumped back on track. I Managed to, you know, keep a good team of people around me that I'm still in touch with nearly all of them these days. So I think I managed to, you know, redeem myself somehow. But it was a. It was a steep learning curve, you know. Just, everyone needs, everyone needs to be managed differently. Some people would like, you know a good, boisterous, loud service. Other people need a bit more of an arm around them and some encouragement and nurturing.

Speaker 2:

I Will say one thing though I mean you know I Always said in other interviews that you can't play a game of football quietly. So you know the, the shouting and the screaming and stuff, as long as it wasn't bullying and it was all more like, you know, the, the matter of urgency, then you know I always found that okay and some people would request that if I was doing a. So come on, let's have a shouty one tonight, chef. So you know, I think that's a fair point is just making sure that you know that the, the intensity, you know we thrive on it, many of us thrive on it and Understand that there's different people, that you know Not all kitchens are the same.

Speaker 2:

So you find the kitchen where you feel inspired and it looked after and the service suits who you are as a person. But you know, I don't think there's anything wrong. I always like the car, the fast, intent services, you know. And yeah, that's what I would say about it. I just it's not bullying and and again, you know the shouting doesn't become negative and you're not just again pushing someone to have an even more Bad service. Let's say do you know what I mean? You're writing someone's arse on service.

Speaker 2:

You know you're demoralising someone and and then you put yourself in a bad mood as well, so I could never understand that. So, but you know, just shouting and giving some urgency and ever see is a bad thing.

Speaker 1:

Yeah, and it's one of the things I miss the most about now working Hospitality adjacent, as we say, which means I have a desk job in hospitality and but it is. It's that hustle, that bustle, that energy Definitely. And, like you said, I think the problem is all the challenges with our industry is that Too many of us myself included back in my early days Don't Necessarily know ourselves, know who we are. I don't think that's actually just our industry. I think most of us are Late teens, early 20s. No one, none of us know what the fuck's going on and we go into an industry where the caricatures of success Were because we're all kind of similar age to myself, yourself, people that we've been speaking to on the podcast that we put on this character of loud, shouty, screaming. And when you said here earlier, you said you know, I just wanted to tell the world I existed. Like, yeah, I totally, totally fail that, because I don't think I felt I existed until I came to hospitality and could suddenly be somebody where the things that I wasn't necessarily very good at at school, suddenly they were exactly the things I needed to be good at in our industry. You know and you do you kind of you have this Without the support and without, maybe, the the understanding that we didn't have back in those years, that we didn't have back in those days.

Speaker 1:

Back in those days I'm not that old, I also. Yeah, I mean, could gizzy? When gizzy was on, you know, we were saying the same thing, especially being females in the industry. We both felt this Huge push to have to be this loud, shouty oh, she's all right, bitch, isn't she? Oh, but we'll get it done. And it's a really disc, uncomfortable in all fists, or try that one again a very uncomfortable In authenticity that you're wearing every day, which actually wears your spirit down. And I mean, maybe not quite so dramatically, but is that something that you found yourself? I mean, I know you called it ego, ego, but there's it's. I mean ego is protection as well. You know, if we, if we take the negative away from ego, you know ego is there to protect us. I completely.

Speaker 2:

But over and over and over again, ego is also. You know, that's what we don't need. So I, you know, um, it's making sure. I mean, look, I do a lot of work with plant medicines. I I Experience ego death very regularly just to make sure that that's kept under control and, um, I deal with things in a A much better way for not being so offended or upset and, you know, just having the abruised ego all the time. So let me go and do some medicine work and then I know how to deal with things in a in a much better way. But you know, um, I think my time in kitchens it was actually during the pilot like time that I just thought I'm saying one thing, I'm trying to raise awareness around mental health and yet, you know, eyes are on me about who I am and how I should behave in a restaurant. So, you know, I guess I was conscious of that and why I wanted to just make sure that there was People understood who I am.

Speaker 2:

I'm still a chef and the job, the job is a harder job. Okay, it's not for everyone. So we can't expect to come into the industry Anyone. Everything's going to be nice, it's, it's not that it's a tough industry. Let's just accept that. But as you know, restaurant owners, we can make it a little bit easier by just Looking at our staff and seeing it, making sure that their needs have addressed in certain ways. And as chefs Front of house we can look after ourselves a lot better. I never looked after myself. I took a lot of drugs and I drank all the time and I felt like shit and that would that would compound. You know how I felt in a kitchen when I was, when I was having a kind of a bad day. Well, you know, it wouldn't have been a little easier if I wasn't hungover and had a bit more sleep?

Speaker 1:

So and you won't have been the only one, I think as well. It's not like you are just going to be the only person feeling like shit. So again, it's that collective energy, isn't it?

Speaker 2:

It really is. And now you know I'm much more about kind of promoting yoga, meditation, wellness. I've said in a bunch of different interviews and things where you know it's we in hospitality I'd say particularly chefs, but not exclusively.

Speaker 1:

We have such long days.

Speaker 2:

We do things that athletes don't you know last that long doing, you know. So why don't we look after ourselves like athletes? Why you know when it and I can say this to you, I know what it will be. It will be like, you know, yeah, you're your, you're your own boss. But so maybe I've created a certain freedom in which to do this. But at the same time, I do try and we make sure that we give our staff it's four days on, three days off. So you know it's what you do with those three days.

Speaker 2:

And if I can encourage people not to drink, you know I don't want to be pious about not drinking, but at the same time, don't spend your whole one of your days completely hungover or recovering.

Speaker 2:

I always thought when I was, when I was kind of at my peak in kitchens, I was, if I felt tired, instead of like going for a sleep on the bonkettes, like a few of the other chefs were doing, I'd go down the gym, I'd get the endorphins going, I'd, you know, get some adrenaline happening and then I could go back into the kitchen and do a service way more, you know, charged than everyone else. But I mean, there is also we have to take into account rest and yeah, I learned that a little while ago when I kind of got pneumonia for not resting up, you know. So now I take rest really seriously and if I only take one day off a week, but I make sure I've got, I'm in bed by a certain time, I'm up at a certain time and I try to be a bit more regimented throughout the rest of my working week and rest accordingly when I have my day off.

Speaker 1:

Well, I mean, that's the thing is. I don't think that, because you own your own business. Actually, I think everybody our leaders, our managers it has to come from us, it has to come from the top and we can't use the excuse of being oh well, we're really busy, we're really that, we're really this. And this is the why, because, at the end of the day, I didn't come into this industry with an addiction, I didn't come into this industry with a lot of stress and all of that. I'm not blaming the industry because, like you said, that is the industry and, if you know, effectively, we can't expect it to change its essence, because that's one of the what we love about it. However, the leaders, the managers, everything around me, the culture was all about if you were tired, if you were stressed, if you were ex, take some drugs, have a drink, go out, go hard, and you know that whole day off concept. We talk about that quite a lot.

Speaker 1:

In the first season, my one of my, my favorite managers used to always say you're only as good as your day off.

Speaker 1:

And you know, days off for me and not just me, for people you know most of the people I would work with would be you know up really late because you've been out the night before and you know no life admin, no proper food.

Speaker 1:

It would be like, oh, I'll just get a pizza because I'm not eating for three days, so I'm going to go all out finally going to eat something and that's what you eat and you certainly. There's no exercise, there's no socializing, because you don't really have any friends because your works your family. So who needs friends? You know? And it's just this real dysfunction and sadly it does come from the top. And there's so much, there's so many things that we could be doing with our teams and doing them with the same connection, the same intensity, but which are just so much more nourishing for us. But unfortunately, unfortunately, it's not going to be the Gen Zs coming in saying that they want this different thing that are going to make the change. We have to be the ones to be seen to changing, to making those change, like you, and stop making excuses.

Speaker 2:

Yeah, you know, I think with Acme we, when we first in the first year, we were providing like yoga once a month and some other little kind of wellness things. But actually we found the staff didn't have time for it, or they, you know, so we wanted it to be there, but you know, if they had a day off, as soon as they have a day off. So we didn't want to necessarily promote toxic wellness. You know you will be here and you will do yoga.

Speaker 1:

Yeah, yeah, yeah.

Speaker 2:

The only thing I can do really is just lead by example. You know, I have been cooking, yeah, 25 years now, and for a long period of that I wasn't looking after myself. But the changes that have happened in my life through changing my lifestyle, I'm just like shit. Now I can only if people ask me I'll tell them. You know what's the secret to longevity in the industry? Well, I think it's this. I can't tell you, you got to do it, but this is what's worked for me. It does kind of make sense. There is no sense to it. You know, we should look after ourselves like athletes. We should make sure we're resting accordingly, we should avoid alcohol and drugs, we should make sure we're eating the right things and you know what stretch, breathe and stay hydrated.

Speaker 1:

Yeah, and I mean, and again, like we have to, you know, like you said about eating, you know, star food is notoriously shit, you know, and even little things like that. I think that I mean I bet yours is fucking incredible. But I mean I remember working for a massive group in London who are very expensive and our staff food used to be white boiled rice and breaded fish and for some of the team, some of your teams right now not you, but some people listening it might be the only meal that they'll eat is the meal that they have at work. You know, I would often have my team members know that they haven't eaten and they might not eat later on because of money. You know we're talking London or just anywhere these days and yet the we're just not all. But there's almost like this kind of like oh, I'll just give him anything, or or it's fried stuff, or, you know, have another burger, have a chip, have chips. You know what's pasta and tomato sauce, you know, I think that we probably do better collectively on that.

Speaker 2:

I don't think anyone's, but we have an awareness about it and have done in various restaurants. Every now and then something not quite right slips under the net. Do you know what I mean? It might be that there's three fucking carbs is done rice, potatoes and bread and it's just like, guys, come on, what we're doing here, I don't think any of its intentional. You know, there are just those little bits when we just forget, but for the best part of it, hey, you know we're trying to encourage people to work for us.

Speaker 2:

So one of the things that we want them to, you know we're kind of providing is, you know, daily staff meals, and that better be good, because you know it is a selling point. It has to be a selling point. Now, you know what are the perks? Well, we're going to provide you with some, you know, really good food and and we consider it about what we're giving you as well it's not going to be something fried, it's not going to be, you know, all trashy things. We don't want that. We just want people to embrace really good food and, and, you know, give them the fuel that, give them the nourishment that they need for the shift ahead.

Speaker 1:

Absolutely Well, it's like you're saying, you know, with that whole athlete analogy, you know like there's no, really none of the athletes are going. You know, four hours sleep, come into work eating a load of carbs and grease and then doing a 12 hour stretch. You know, like if you said to an athlete, this is the conditions we would like you to work with, but when they be, like it's a fucking loopy, not you insane. And and yeah, and I say this as a person who you know I suffered from an incredibly debilitating burnout three years ago, coming up for three years ago. Now, you know, and now we've got fiber in my algae, which is a. It's a condition I'm going to have for life.

Speaker 1:

It it really sucks. You know, I'm in pain every single day and if I'd known, then what I know now would 100% would have done so much different. You know that burning out, like you were saying, you know, with pilot life, you know that's that, that, that little flame that just disappeared, and yet I was doing anything but everything to just carry on pushing. And I think that it's just really sad that we celebrate that. We celebrate that push sometimes to excess, and that we don't necessarily talk about enough what happens when we do cross that line. Pilot like this, my nice little segue to just talk about that before we finish. So that was, that was off the back of your own experiences, or you shared something about how you were feeling and you couldn't believe. The response, I believe, is how it started yeah, I didn't, I didn't really want to 2000.

Speaker 2:

At the end of 2015, I was hit with depression. There was a couple of triggers on it and, you know, I became quite suicidal. I was in the darkest parts of hell that I could imagine and not understanding why I was there or how I got there and, you know, just not knowing how to get out. Yet but with the support of family and friends, and you know a little story of how I got out of it. You know, just having me, I was fortunate to have a really good support network around that. I speak to my dad. I was, you know, telling him what I was going through in the beginning to say I'm trying. I was just like I felt that I'm going through the process Because that's what it would be If I ended my life. Then it would be. I would be then carrying on that. I, you know I was determined to run it. I remember there being a Winston Churchill. A church was when you were going through hell going through hell barring.

Speaker 2:

And then I put a couple of other little things around the flat. It was in positive language and you know just, I didn't look at the news. I kind of left social media alone a little bit. I quit drinking and doing hard drugs for the time, so I didn't have any crutches and look, cut a long story short. I got myself out of that and while I wasn't fully recovered, I was recovered enough to say later on in 2016, when it was World Mental Health Day, I just said, look, you know I'm gonna it was World Mental Health Day. I'll put a post up really just saying look, I didn't believe in depression until I had it, but you know it's real and you know I'm here to help or to talk to if anyone's going through the same. So that's when I got the response.

Speaker 2:

Yeah, I put my phone down, went to bed and woke up the next day to a lot of messages on Instagram DMs, phone calls, emails, text messages and, you know, many people saying, look, you're saying something we've not been able to say. And then it kind of hit me that you know there wasn't this support network in hospitality. No one was doing anything that we could find okay. I didn't know about hospitality action, who are, like you know, the biggest hospitality and one of the oldest charities in the UK. But where were they advertising when? How did we know about? We went on a bit of a deep dive to find who he was.

Speaker 2:

And I met Doug San and my partner on the project. He was going through the same thing, but we were both like there's no one doing anything for hospitality. And when we spoke to mind the charity they were like, yeah, we've tried hospitality a few times but we've not really had any kind of uptake and no one to really take it on. So we said, well, why don't we kind of align and see what we can do? Because you know we're voices, people are listening now and we would kind of raise awareness for mental health within hospitality. And you know what we set out to do. That that's it.

Speaker 2:

So, while Palette Light does still exist, we don't really do too much of them and a bit of fundraising here and there. We got to the pandemic. We had never been so relevant and yet we couldn't earn money through it. You know we were doing fundraising and bits and pieces, but it was just all going over to the charities that we were working with, but there was no kind of work-based stuff because all the restaurants were closed so we couldn't actually pay any bills with it. So we've never been so relevant and yet we couldn't do anything. And we were starting to suffer again with our own mental health.

Speaker 2:

Doug disappeared for a while. I was, you know, not sure I'd lost a lot of money when the pandemic hit. So I was just like how do I pay the rent? How do I pay the bills? So we didn't put it down, but it was just like look, you know what, If we said one thing, we set out to raise awareness and get the conversation started, and now there's a lot of charities, initiatives, plenty of campaigns in hospitality. So I think we did what we set out to do. It doesn't mean we still have ambassadors, for you know ambassadors, for I think we both decided that we would go on our own journeys and this would go a little bit more on the journey. You know Doug is stuck with nutrition. He wanted to understand more about the health of the children we eat. That for lots of people. He helped me feel and I think I went on my journey what the Christ should think.

Speaker 1:

Absolutely no, and it is like you said. It might have been a chapter in your life but it would have 100% paved the way for a lot of the. You know I'm an ambassador for the Burnt Chef Project and we're lucky. You know we've had Kelly's calls on the podcast, got Healthy Hospice going to come on in a couple of weeks, we've got. You know I've connected with quite a few organisations in the US as well Canada not 95. But, like you say, it's almost like you didn't know it was there until you needed it and then you kind of searched and you're like, okay, there is something. But it's great now that it does feel a little bit more at the forefront.

Speaker 1:

But I think that, yeah, I think that what you did with Pilot Light is absolutely incredible and I really love the fact that it's like you said, it was that really authentic journey of self. That was the reason that people could connect to it, because, at the end of the day, that's why it's so important to share our stories, because that's the key. You know, our stories are the things that help others. So by doing that, that's 100% what you did and I definitely think that you could redo it because the way that you've described, throwing intentions into the fire at the beginning of a shift, like screw a shift. Brief, that's what I want to be doing and just the way you talk about the way to like you motivate the team and the energies and stuff like that. Like I said, I'm clearly in the cult now and I would definitely buy that management book because I think the way that you speak is just yeah, it's just really inspiring and I really hope that people listening to this episode will take from that. You know the idea.

Speaker 1:

And again, it's like that we are. You know we are not an island, but we're not out. Everything we do it really does affect those around us, and in the obvious way ie shouting at them, but also just because of how we are feeling about ourselves and how that expresses out, and especially as us leaders, when we've got these young people looking up to us, like I think it's really important that we sometimes I know for a fact I was not a good manager a lot of the time because I was in so much pain myself I didn't know how to hide it from them and therefore that would have affected them because of my irritability, because of my own distress and stuff like that. You know, I used to think that meant I was a good manager, because they were seeing how broken I was because of the cause the restaurant. And again, you know, I now know how wrong I was. But again, unfortunately our industry does still have a tendency to celebrate that, you know. But it's changing.

Speaker 2:

It is changing. Yes, it is changing, but you know, I think it's. I encourage, still encourage restaurants to, you know, do what they can for their staff, you know, make it as easy as the hard job can be, but also, you know, the chefs, front of house individuals, need to also take responsibility for their. You know their lives as well. You know I did. I well, you know, sponsored by the office, went out for the right kind of bad service or a bad service. All roads lead to the bar and you know I drank my way through it. I could have enjoyed it way more if I didn't.

Speaker 1:

Absolutely no. I yeah. Thank you so much. It's been a very inspiring, thought provoking conversation that I will be thinking of for the rest of the evening. I was trying to think of a fire pun there. That's why I was stalling and I couldn't think of one. I was gonna say that I'll marinate on a week or evening, and I was like, no, marinating isn't a fire pun. That's what was going on behind my eyes.

Speaker 2:

By the way, I unbelievable but it was lovely to talk to you, don't worry, andrew, I will be getting some professional help at some point.

Speaker 1:

Thank you so much for your time. I can't wait. I've not been to Acme Fire Cult yet, but I can't wait to come and visit you next time I'm in London. Keep doing what you're doing, oh my God. And just thank you so much for being such an exceptional ambassador for chefs, to show that it is possible to be in a different way and it is possible to combat from depression and it is possible to work and be successful without excessive drinking and drugs and screaming and all of that stuff Like it is actually not only possible, but it's bloody lovely to work that way. Yes, so give it a try.

Speaker 2:

It really is, thank you.