We Recover Loudly - Serving Essential Hospitality Conversations

S2 Episode 012 - Ben Gibbs - From Spiraling into Alcoholism to Sober Boozing with Style

• Michelle Righini • Season 2 • Episode 12

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In this new episode, Ben Gibbs, founder of the Sober Boozers Club, shares his journey with us in his signature candid, and humourous manner. He discusses his struggle with alcoholism and the pivotal moment that led him towards sobriety. Ben's story not only highlights his personal triumph but also sheds light on the growing market for non-alcoholic beer, emphasizing the inclusivity and happiness that can be found in a life without alcohol.

During our conversation, we delve into the emotional challenges faced by those in recovery. We discuss the stigma associated with the term 'alcoholic' and the importance of self-forgiveness. Ben discusses the process of overcoming past mistakes while redefining one's identity. 

We also discuss - 

  • Being a big deal in Redditch
  • The challenge of being an alcoholic who loves beer, and how Ben claimed that and has not stopped doing what he loves just because he put down the booze.
  • That you do not have to be an alcoholic to stop drinking
  • How important to Ben it has been building a community of AF beer drinkers around him, and the joy of being able to share his love of these drinks with people
  • The commonality of addicts who search for community in the wrong places, which leads to the bottle of a bottle ... And how now we are sober we find what we were really looking for.  Connection.

This episode is a mix of laughter and honesty, showcasing a community that embraces vibrant living without alcohol. Pour yourself your fave AF beer and enjoy!  For more from Ben, follow him on @sober_boozers_club

For more information on We Recover Loudly and to reach out for speaking engagements or support email hello@werecoverloudly.com

@werecoverloudly
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This episode is brought to you by our proud sponsors:

Low No Drinker Magazine @lownodrinkermagazine

www.lownodrinkermagazine.com

Speaker 1:

Thank you, hello, and welcome to this week's episode of we Recruiter Loudly. So today I am joined by the glorious Ben Gibbs, also known as the man behind the Sober Boozers Club. Ben gave up booze in January 2022 and has since been sharing about his sobriety through the medium of delicious non-alcoholic beers on his Instagram. Ben really does shine a positive light on the increasing range of options that we now have in the NA beer market and was recently called a big deal in Reddit and it turns out not for the first time more of which we will, of course, discuss. But before all of that, hi Ben, how are you?

Speaker 2:

Hello, I'm very good, thank you. How are you?

Speaker 1:

Yeah, absolutely brilliant. I'm sober, I've got money in my bank account, I've got food in the fridge, you know.

Speaker 2:

Living the dream. What more could you want?

Speaker 1:

Honestly, I think even I've paid my bills. It's the first well, it's nearly the first of the month. It's things that two years ago, shell could only dream of. There is so much I want to talk to you about, but I don't want to just start talking beer and then forget to actually tell people who you are. But anybody who has no idea who on earth you are and why we're chatting today. Who are you, ben?

Speaker 2:

idea who on earth you are and why we're chatting today. Who are you, ben? So I guess an alcoholic would be for me to not get kicked out of a gang. That's the way I need to introduce myself, isn't it? So yeah, I'm just another alcoholic that loves beer, so I started talking about said beer when I first got sober. Through the beautiful world world of Instagram, found a load of different breweries, started talking about said breweries and beers, and, um, just met a load of really cool people along the way.

Speaker 1:

So now I'm here talking more about sobriety, and and and beer, because the two go hand in hand, apparently yeah, I mean we did an Instagram Live a few weeks ago with the wonderful Andy Mee and when I reflected on it afterwards I was just like the only thing missing from that conversation was ethanol. Like everything else was there. Do you know what I mean? We were talking about variety, styles, preferences, different breweries, different Like. There was just nothing missing at all, and I think that's really kind of indicative of what the market's like now yeah, it's a really growing market.

Speaker 2:

I mean, it's like the whole veganism boom um from a few years ago. If you're a vegan or even a vegetarian in the 90s, you're in trouble, whereas now, with supply and demand, it's there's so many options and alcohol-free is exactly the same, especially the last couple. And demand it's there's so many options and alcohol free is exactly the same, especially the last couple of years. It's just continuing to grow and grow and grow and we're seeing so many new breweries crop up.

Speaker 1:

It's, it's a, it's a fabulous industry and, as I often say, it's a great time to be sober everyone, it's a great time um the take me back. Take me back, little ben having his first ever sip of alcohol. Were you one of those that felt, the moment that liquid hit your the back of your throat, that this was the missing piece to life, or were you a bit more like me? Was it quite functional for years until it wasn't?

Speaker 2:

do you know what's really strange about my my journey into alcoholism? I didn't drink up until the age of maybe 26, 27 um, and I'm 31 now, so my relationship with alcohol was very hot and fast um we talk about it like a love affair.

Speaker 1:

I mean, that's just said a whole lot yeah, it was a very abusive relationship.

Speaker 2:

But no, I from from the age of like, when, when I could drink, so 18 legally. But obviously you know, um, I'd always kind of nurse a couple of bottles an evening. Um, it was never really a thing for me, my drinking and I want to be really careful when talking about what led me down the path of alcoholism. I want to preface it by saying that my, my addiction is on me and nobody else. Um, I think you tread a really dangerous line when you start to sort of break down why you became an alcoholic, because it almost feels like a blame game, like oh, if this person hadn't have done this, then I wouldn't be an alcoholic. In that case there's reasons without blame, almost.

Speaker 2:

Um, so my journey started. I was, I was married, um, and I got married way too young and that started to go south and there was a, a belief that there may be an affair happening, um, and that wasn't just a kind of a paranoia, it was more of a okay, this is a thing, um, and that's when my drinking became quite bad for the first time really, um, and then I kind of started to get a little bit better. But once that door had opened, there was always the option to go back down there. So during COVID I started drinking quite heavily every day, but unproblematically. It felt. You know, there were no real issues with it. I wasn't feeling sad. I was kind of very functioning, high functioning.

Speaker 2:

Then I got into a really toxic, toxic relationship For both of us. We were just terrible for each other. And that's when, really for the first time, the nasty side of my drinking started to display itself. So it would be really dramatic evenings where I'd upset a lot of people and would start acting quite out of character or I felt like it was out of character. Some really horrific stories. I wasn't a good person to be around and you know I was holding on to a lot of anger about what had happened previously in life and I hadn't addressed it or dealt with it. So when the alcohol hit, it was horrific, um, and I had to really just take a look at myself and think okay, in 10 years, who am I going to be if I carry on doing this and I didn't like it, and if the only way to to make sure that doesn't happen is to stop drinking?

Speaker 1:

so it was a very quick relationship, but a really dangerous and foul one yeah well, thank you so much for sharing that and honestly, I related to that so much and and I think it's I really appreciate you sharing that. It's one of the things that I try and guess across. Is that the same? You know, my drinking was very minimal. I was always the designated driver. I would have one gin and tonic. I actually didn't really like feeling like I was holding a glass, like I was so nervous in social situations I didn't know what to do with the glass, what to do with my hands, what to do with anything. So anything additional to have anxiety over over I was like get rid of. So, you know, bars and things like that. I wouldn't really drink um, but the same.

Speaker 1:

I had a relationship when I was 23, 24. There was, um, he was cheating on me constantly and I was because of whatever I'd been through growing up. You know know, for me that was all fine. I thought that was love and you know, and the pain of that, the searing pain of that rejection, was when I realised that hang on drugs you know I love that term, recreational drug use, you know, recreational. When suddenly recreational became something that allowed me to escape the pain, you know so perfect escapism is.

Speaker 2:

It's such a good word for it, because that is what it is. Um. I should highlight the whole. The affair was never proven but the um just in, in the eyes of fairness, um. But you know, that was the, the mentality that I was definitely in um, and yeah, like you say, it's a companion. You can, you can sit with your thoughts and at first it feels really positive and really constructive, doesn't it? Because you work?

Speaker 2:

yeah that stuff in your brain, you go oh no, this is my thinking time, my drinking time, and then it slowly becomes more, my drinking time is my drinking time, and then that's how it kind of spiral it's like and I really like that way that you said you know once that door is open, it's open because you're right.

Speaker 1:

Suddenly, you know I didn't go from then, from that relationship and you know, realizing that, hey, if you drink a couple of bottles of wine at night, the pain goes. Then I went back to normal, normal drinking and I always do bunny ears on this podcast like an idiot. Um, bunny, normal drinking, but it actually really was. It really was normal drinking because it was potentially higher than others because of working in hospitality and we, you know, a daily beer after work is certainly not frowned upon in any shape, you know. But it was never problematic. I was. I wasn't having consequences, there was nothing negative overly, um, but because I'd opened that door.

Speaker 2:

Anytime something bad happens after that, it was the immediate in the back of the head going hey, remember me, I really worked yeah, yeah, that's when, when you build those patterns, that's when you're you're in trouble, um, and it might never rear its head again. I mean, I've had conversations recently with friends where I've said I probably could drink now and I truly in my heart of hearts, believe I probably could.

Speaker 2:

I'm never I'm not going to. I'm saying never. I'm not going to right now and I wouldn't like to because I know where it could go and I don't want that to ever happen again. Um, but there is that constant when you're kind of you know it's, it's like a remission, when you're in remission from it in the early days of gray area drinking.

Speaker 2:

Then you feel like, oh okay, you know that that was dangerous, that was close to being a real problem, but you'll never. You're not fully over it until you cut it all together. Moderation isn't it doesn't work with people like myself.

Speaker 1:

Once you've opened that door, yeah, and I mean I was wondering about labels and stuff because I I feel the same in that respect that, um, as much as I know, it draws abject fear into my family when I say these words, like you know, oh, I think maybe if I had a drink I'd be okay. And you know, I don't identify with that archetypal label of being an alcoholic and I did a whole episode saying you know, do you have to be an alcoholic to give up drinking? Um, and I was wondering, you know, like in you you know you use the word alcoholic when you introduce yourself. Obviously we did it quite glibly and stuff like that. But was was that identified? Do you feel like that's quite an important part of anybody wanting to try out a bit of sobriety? Was that for you something you had to kind of label yourself?

Speaker 2:

I think for me it was the, the realization in my brain that the term alcoholic can be a very wide term. You know like you talk about neurodiversity in the spectrum and you know people say, oh, everyone's a little bit on the spectrum. It's like, no, no, we're not. Everybody has quirks but we're not all on the spectrum. You can have heavy drinkers that aren't alcoholics.

Speaker 2:

I think for me, being a grey area drinker, which isn't your quintessential alcoholic, if alcohol is impacting your life in a negative way, you are an alcoholic. If you can't walk away from it easily, if it seems like a big event, say, oh, I've stopped drinking, then you're probably an alcoholic, but that doesn't mean you're dirty. I've stopped drinking, then you're probably an alcoholic, but that doesn't mean you're dirty. It doesn't mean you're disgusting or it doesn't mean that you're anything bad. It means you're wonderful, as wonderful as anybody, but it's not a dirty word. But I think for me to call myself an alcoholic is a big thing because it still feels like there's a stigma there and I think that's why I want to use the term so much to get get rid of that stigma, because it's not a bad thing it really isn't like you say and it's, and yet I still struggle to introduce myself with that word.

Speaker 1:

and you know, there's Gabor Mate. He interviewed the wonderful Bry Bryony Gordon not that long ago Probably, actually was quite a while ago and you know, he, she, she always is very openly. My name is Bryony, I am an alcoholic, she, she, she. And she then continues with I am a bog standard alcoholic. You know one of the things we learn in the rooms we're not special. And Gabor Mate says to her you're not, you're not your disorder, you are briny. And and she really fights against that because that doesn't fit for her narrative. But you know, sometimes maybe I, maybe it's a scapegoat, maybe it's something that I, you know, mentally I'm like, yeah, I'm not my disorder, maybe there's a distancing from what I did versus who I am that I still feel I need to do because of the stigma.

Speaker 2:

Yeah, I think it's a really big part of it. It's kind of we don't want to admit we're the thing that we're the most scared of and I think when you think of yourself as an alcoholic, when I think of myself as an alcoholic, it's me 10 years from now had I not stopped drinking, and that's really scary and I'm not that person and I don't think I'm the person I was when I was drinking. You know, I was abusive to myself and to other people around me and I don't think I'm that person in my heart. So when I call myself Ben the alcoholic, that's the person I see, and I think it's trying to form this link in my brain between me now as a man who sits and watches Married at First Sight, while my girlfriend falls asleep on the sofa next to me, who actually is the person that made me put it on, but, quite content in doing so, I'm still an alcoholic, I'm just a lot more wholesome.

Speaker 1:

Wholesome alcoholic. Yeah, I mean we talk about, I mean Gabo Mate especially. We talk about trauma and we Gabo Mate always says I don't ask why the addiction, I ask why the pain, and you and I've both mentioned you know there was a lot of pain behind the reasons why we started using alcohol to numb out. Um, but one of the things I don't get think gets talked about enough and you've just highlighted it is the trauma involved in actually being an addict, you know, actually being in that, sat in that two, three, four, five years of absolute hell. Because I think sometimes we come out of addiction and there's this whole like oh yeah, I'm sorry for what I did, sorry, terrible person, I'm not that person anymore. But maybe we don't necessarily allow ourselves enough space to just grieve how fucking awful it is to live that way.

Speaker 2:

You know, yeah, it was one of the most important moments for me Recently actually. I was out with some friends and one of my friends said you know, we were talking about the whole drinking phase that I went through and it's it's almost a bit of a joke now. I mean it's not, but between friends it's kind of that was ridiculous, wasn't it? And it's kind of not laughed about. It's like yeah, that was, that was a wild time in your life. I can't believe that that all happened.

Speaker 2:

But then one of my friends in that conversation said you know, I'm really proud of you, but the thing I'm the most proud of is that you've forgiven yourself and it's. It's a really big thing to say do you know what? It's okay that that happened. Um, you've got to take accountability and I always will. You know, what happened was terrible. The whole period of my drinking was awful, um, but you know, you've got to get past it and you've got to let that go, because it doesn't, it can't define you, because if it does, then what's the point in even getting sober?

Speaker 1:

yeah, that's really true, that is, it's really true, it is it's. I think that whole you know it's not a blame game, of course it's not a blame game because there's nobody that wakes up and becomes an addict and goes. Well, I was having an awesome life, fucking, I was nailing life, everything was brilliant. But I thought, screw it, I'm going to become an alcoholic. We all come in to whatever kind of recovery with these pains, and you're right, you know it's, it's. It's very important to not sit there and go well, because x happened, I became y. But I think a part of that, though, there has to be that forgiveness in that respect and that self-compassion to say, yeah, well, x happening didn't equal Y, what happened wasn't okay. And there's almost that kind of grieving that we need to allow ourselves to do, which I think we sometimes forget because we're so busy saying sorry for the shit we did, quite rightly too, yeah, yeah, there's kind of that moment that sometimes is missed, potentially yeah, I think it's a real it's.

Speaker 2:

It's an important sort of period that you have a morning that you have to go through. You know you have to mourn yourself as an alcoholic as well. You know, like I was playing in bands, I was, you know, doing a lot of social activity that I felt was really quite fun and quite good and quite cool, and I had to let that go because actually it was more damaging than it was positive and it was a grieving process for that person. That version of me that you know ceased to exist for a year after it. And also, the thing that sobriety does is as well, as you know, allowing you to forgive yourself, as you you actually take a look at.

Speaker 2:

You know we were talking about the blame game and you know, really early on in this conversation I said, you know, oh, I was married and it was real reason to believe she was having an affair, um, but my ex-wife now is married to this, this guy with a baby, and actually, do you know what? I'm so happy for them, um, and sincerely and wholeheartedly, because what a wonderful thing to have happened, you know, from a, from a bad situation, what, what a great outcome. Like you couldn't hope for anything more, could you? And it's so liberating to truly feel that within yourself and within your soul and to know that you know I only have good, good thoughts for them everyone who was in my life previous to my sobriety. I just want good for them, and there was a time when I definitely wouldn't have been able to say that because I was really bitter about everything yeah, and it's weird, but I think I will do that to you.

Speaker 1:

I think you're, I think that is part of that whole healing process in a way, and that's why, certainly for me, it worked well having that community, because, you're right, like in those early days, there is this anger, there's blame, there's resentment, there's, like you said, there's bitterness and it's. It's almost like I liken it to the stages of grief that, um, we talk about. You know, there's initially, there's that denial. You know, no, this is me, I haven't got a problem, I'm just doing this for everyone else, everyone else, leave me alone yeah, first time in ia, yeah and then there's like, yeah, there's the anger, the how dare you?

Speaker 1:

and then there's the absolute, abject mourning. I love that the way you said that the mourning of that past identity and the grief around what you put yourself through, what you were and also what you were. The level know, like what I used to accept as being a good day or what I used to accept as being good behavior towards me versus now.

Speaker 1:

Like it blows my mind, it really is. And it's silly because when you're in the madness and people go to you like, oh, you wouldn't treat a friend the way that you would treat yourself, it's too difficult to even put those two things together. But now I look back and yeah, I, I can't believe that I did that to myself and luckily I think I'm just a little bit ahead of you. Luckily I'm moving into acceptance, which is that's. That's the beautiful spot, you know, of sobriety, when you can finally look back and go do you know what people shit on you? You shit on people.

Speaker 2:

It's okay yeah, yeah, we're all just. You know, we're all just trying, aren't we? And I think if you're not trying there's a problem, and that's when you know you can call yourself out a little bit. But if you know that your intentions are good, then what more can you expect from someone Like, yeah, it's a horrible thing, isn't it? My whole addiction thing.

Speaker 2:

Just thinking back, as you were describing, then I was going through all of the periods in my recovery but it was like, okay, yeah, it was the denial. And then I was going through all of the periods in in my recovery but it was like, okay, yeah, it was the, you know, the denial. And then I remember that time and then it's like a whole journey. It's like a, like a. It's trauma. It's trauma and you relive it when you think of and it's it's not that long ago really, but it was all going on and it's just it's crazy to put yourself back there and you know it's such a big journey and I think it's crazy to put yourself back there and do you know what?

Speaker 2:

It's such a big journey, and I think it's one that every alcoholic or every person that struggles with alcohol that I talk to about their journey. I'm just so immensely proud of them because it's such a big thing and you know we'd never, say it to ourselves.

Speaker 2:

I would never look in the mirror and say, oh, you're amazing, you've done so well, because I'm still constantly growing and because I know what I could become in half an hour if I wanted to, potentially, but to others. It's so nice to just be able to talk to these people and say you're amazing.

Speaker 1:

Absolutely. It's something that it's such a. It's something that I don't think people who haven't gone through addiction can really get to understand, which is also a really good thing because it means I haven't been through addiction. But you know that total stripping down to abject nothingness, which is where you kind of find yourself not everybody, but a lot of people when you kind of go right, this is it, this is day one, and the rebuilding of like, well, it's not even a rebuilding. I mean, for me I never, ever, knew who I was, what I was, what I wanted to be, all of that. You know, I constantly, I spent my whole life disassociating and for me, the last two years has been about finding that which, initially, is terrifying.

Speaker 1:

You know, you put down the drink and you go okay, cool. Now you've got to find yourself. You're like, oh what, really, without a drink, and it's been, but it's really interesting. But at the same time, you're right, it is not that long ago. It feels so far away because of the work that I've put into myself and the work that, as to you and you know, in the community and stuff, but it really wasn't that far away and I, you know, I want people to kind of realize that it doesn't take 10 years to get to having your own podcast and you know being a big thing in reddit. You know it is something that can happen quite quickly and you know for yourself.

Speaker 1:

I know, right, um, I mean for yourself, yourself. You know, you stopped drinking. We went through the denial, the anger. I mean how, how quickly did you kind of think to yourself right, that's it. I'm taking charge of this and I'm going to start looking at these incredible beers, although, didn't you first review a Heineken Zero?

Speaker 2:

review a Heineken Zero, or yeah, so it was. So I'd kind of been doing the whole oh, I'm trying to moderate. For maybe six months before I properly stopped drinking and I used to love, you know, craft beer anyway, um, so I was aware of some breweries, um, but it was always a bit of an argument in my brain which is really ridiculous to justify still drinking was oh no, it's the association. So, you know, alcohol-free beers are just as bad for me as alcohol beers. That was nonsense, they weren't. I just wanted to keep drinking and to find a reason not to stop.

Speaker 2:

So for me, like, it was a very quick really getting, you know, really motivated to say right and do it, because the evening that I stopped drinking was such a big, intense evening of it was just a massive fight with a lot of people. It was really, it was horrific, um, so it's like, right, okay, day one go, yeah, this is my whole life, I'm changing it. You know, I'll fucking show you all. That was the first point. Really, it was like, yeah, fuck you all, I'll show you I can do this, I'm better than you.

Speaker 2:

Um, yeah, I remember that after maybe a month of doing it, it was like oh, wait a second, why are my friends not all friends with me still?

Speaker 2:

and you know, then we worked from there, um, but the fire was in my gut isolation, yeah but, yeah, the fire was in my kind of gut to stop from day one of sobriety, really, um, and that's when I was like, do you know what, fuck, what all of these like charities are saying? About being like, oh no, you've got to wean yourself off because it's dangerous to go to total, um, so not if I die, I die, you know, and I'm not going to from just going from high to nothing because I wasn't drinking that much, you know, this is another thing. A lot of these charities are amazing but very underfunded, um, so my advice was to wean myself off alcohol slowly, because that's the model they have to apply to everyone, because obviously it can be dangerous if you're drinking a bottle of vodka a day and you go to nothing, um, so I've completely forgot what we were talking about because I've just rambled, but basically no but actually it's.

Speaker 1:

It's interesting you did point would bring that up, because a lot of people that I hear in the rooms of recovery you know they hear that advice and they go brilliant I will.

Speaker 1:

Just, you know, and it gives them that excuse to keep going. And uh, just as a side note, you know, I do definitely think you know. If you are going to stop drinking, just do your research, you know, have a little look around and all that in a weird way. If, for some reason, the idea of moderating makes you feel joyful and gleeful, then that's a really good indication.

Speaker 2:

Yeah that's a bit of a red flag to yourself, isn't it?

Speaker 1:

Yeah, but we were talking about you deciding at what stage of kind of like sobriety. You deciding like, right, I'm taking charge and I'm actually going to do take something that I used to love and I'm going to reclaim it, but without the ethanol and I'm going to reclaim it, but without the ethanol again.

Speaker 2:

I think that was quite early on, um, because I'd found that the reason I started getting more into alcohol-free beers was I was googling them and for a couple of Instagram pages that came up, um, so there was alcohol-free world was the first one, um, and I was thinking, oh, this is interesting, you know, there's a real community for this, and I liked craft beers anyway, and I thought I'm just going to document these beers because if it's out there online, it's kind of a like a declaration almost to myself, whereas if I'm putting something online I'm like, oh, this, you know, sober booze, this club, here's this guy.

Speaker 2:

He doesn't drink. He's posting about beers but he doesn't drink. If I then have a drink, I've got to stop running the page, and then there's a lot of strangers on the internet that are going to know that I've failed and that'd be really embarrassing. So it was a little bit of a motivation, um, and also wanting to get to know people like I can remember seeing like mash gang brewers, like that for the first time being like I just want to be mates with these guys because it's it's really cool what they're doing and you know yeah forward 12 months and, like we're, we're quite friendly.

Speaker 1:

Now, online it's really oh, but now you're. It was this. It, the whole point of this, was to get friends with Jordan.

Speaker 2:

Yeah, I had a really good chat with Jordan on the phone the other day, actually about something that might be happening soon that I'm not going to talk about yet, but um, but yeah, it was just after the phone call I was like you know what, I'm just so glad that there's such good people in this industry. But you know, we just we rang and he was like yeah, how you doing.

Speaker 2:

I've wanted to to talk to you for ages and like we just talked about about booze, and then the end of the call he was like, oh, my dog's just done a shit in the living room, I've got to go, I'll catch you soon.

Speaker 1:

So well, they say you should never meet your heroes, then that's it, dog, shit everywhere no, but I mean god, I mean mash gang. Uh, jordan's been on, is been on the podcast and, um, you know, mash, can they? They make beers for beer drinkers and I love that, that.

Speaker 1:

I love the branding and and and again, actually the way that I'm not sure how, and again, actually, the way that I'm not sure how consciously you've done this, but the way that you present yourself on socials and with the Sober Boozers Club, you do it in a way that has an aspirational element to it that you think I want to be like that, because I think that's really where this whole kind of new not necessarily new wave, but this kind of like upsurge of these brands is going to. It's becoming, rather than a shameful way to live. There's this kind of cool, edgy, aspirational. I mean like, like you said, dogs shitting in lounges yeah, right and you were in an actual band, so you know this shit.

Speaker 2:

I mean, yeah, my, my life is a lot well, it's a. It's a lot more tame now than it was in. Uh, in the band scene, but do you know what? It's interesting? Actually, we, we joke about like, oh, rock and roll and, but do you know what? In, like, most alcoholics are formed in local creative scenes, or most of the alcoholics I am interacting with at the moment. So, in my demographic, let's say, because I don't want to generalise but these scenes it's just nothing. It's just a lot of pissing into the wind and trying to break something that you're never going to break, because it's all forms of social circles, um, and it's like this aspiration that's sold to you know, like the struggling artist, and it just doesn't exist anymore. So all you get is the struggle and, yeah, it's uh, I'd much rather be in the dog shitting on floors, sober, sober, booze, um yeah, but I mean there's so many parallels between the music industry and hospitality.

Speaker 1:

We've um, I mean, noah was a guest on season one from um and he was in bands in the music industry from a very young age and um, you know, he, really this is him, I'm not, I'm not, I'm not outing him, but you know he said, you know that was a real part of the reason that he drank and used to such excess was that scene. And gizzy erskine, again, was on season one. She also shared she kind of studio. She was a punk back in the day.

Speaker 1:

She was like very in the music scene in london and cooking on the side and there are such parallels and I mean for me I wanted to work in hospitality and cooking on the side and there are such parallels and I mean for me I wanted to work in hospitality and work on the bar because it was like they were the ultimate rock stars, they were the coolest they had. You know, they were the people that you came to see and there is something, I guess, about that wanting to be adored that seems to go hand in hand, I suppose. Is it ego? Is it with, but with excessive? You know, alcohol and drug use?

Speaker 2:

um, yeah, I feel like it comes from and I don't think this is a bad thing to say, but I think it's. It starts off from a place of wanting to be better than than where you are, and I can admit that, um, personally, you know, I've got a very like not a tame family like my family are great, but I always felt like I was a little bit more left field, a little bit more creative um, but that's probably because I didn't really feel like I had an identity where I, where I came from, um, because I was a very effeminate male um, and I think it was kind of wanting to, wanting to be something. I don't know what that even was, but I just knew it was something.

Speaker 2:

And music was the first thing that I latched on to because I was, I was okay at it and then you meet creative people and you think, oh yeah, they're more like me, I can fit in with them. But you know, these people have been held friendships for 10 plus years by the time that that you get to know them. So you're never going to get into that scene really, especially when it's all just ego clashing. Um, it's kind of an impossible paradox really, but I do think it comes from a place of wanting to belong somewhere.

Speaker 1:

Um, yeah, which is exactly what we talk about in hospitality. You know we've got people coming through the doors who more often than not have exactly that story. You know have come from school, have not necessarily fit in and have never no, not never quite. There's a reason why there's such a huge correlation between people with neurodiversity and people working in hospitality, for example, that there's no accurate figures at the minute, but I've been reading stats from up to 70% of people being on that spectrum and again, you know it's that constantly, just never feeling like you fit in anywhere and the hospitality offers that community and that safety and that that identification, very much like you're describing yeah, and then there's the added bonus of a cheeky line of coke in the middle of a shift which is always lovely, because why wouldn't you?

Speaker 2:

and you know it's like. I can remember the first night out with one of my best mates, who I won't name, but he, he's a, he's a big weed smoker and he's wonderful, um, like just a wonderful human being. And he, I can remember the first time I got him to do coke and I was so excited because, like, oh, this guy's doing, I can't wait to see what he's like on it. And it was just, it was really funny and it was great. Whereas, you know, for this person, he's never touched it again. But for little old me, as soon as that started, it was like, well, this is wonderful. I want to feel like this all the time. When I feel like this, I'm confident on this, I'm the person that I think I should be, and I think maybe I was just really insecure as a human and that's why I became a became an addict you

Speaker 1:

know, I think that, um, again, I don't know if there's an actual study, but I wouldn't be surprised. You know, I, I do 12-step meetings, I do something every day and I hear the. I mean, it's one of the most incredible parts of my recovery is these rooms, because I get to sit next to people on Zoom who I never would have interacted with because life would never have thrown them that way. That's from movie stars to lawyers, to, you know, mums, just like all different walks of life, and there is always that kind of but even though we could, we're all so different, there is that line of similarity wherein that we all just kind of always felt a bit lost. And you know, exactly as you say, you know, we're always just kind of searching for that identity and something to something to shield us from the outside. And you know, and coke and and look, there are some bloody brilliant times. I'm not, you can't deny that you know and we, we should never deny that you know.

Speaker 2:

No, I would never say that every single time that I was intoxicated was bad. I had some absolutely fabulous evenings, you know, but where I glide across the dance floor and it was wonderful. Um, but as a whole, my life now I mean, I've got this isn't a flex, but since giving up alcohol I'm really happy and well, I'm happy in work. No one's really happy in work because I'd love to not work, but the job that I do is good. I enjoy it.

Speaker 2:

Um, my relationship with my girlfriend is wonderful. You know, she is the the best human I've ever met and there's no way that we would have been together if I was still in active drinking. I've bought a new house, which is wonderful. Um, I've bought a new house, which is wonderful. I'm the cliche of someone in recovery because everything just went and clicked into place and I just feel so lucky to have. Sobriety is a gift, without sounding like a meme, but it's a reason, because it is a gift and without it there is is nothing but, some really happy memories of alcohol as well yeah, and I think that's again.

Speaker 1:

I think it's just really. I love that about you, that it's not a case of betraying this figure of I've given up alcohol and now I'm going to change everything about myself and I'm now going to become an ultra marathon runner and I'm only ever going to drink green juice. I know, literally. I see one more sober person doing a marathon and people listening to this. You know, you know who you are and you know I love you really. But deep down, like I keep saying, where am I chubby sober people? Where's the shortbread meetup?

Speaker 2:

because that's the one yeah, my health, I don't. I don't really feel any healthier. Um, I don't shake anymore and I sleep better, which is nice, and you know I don't. I don't want, I've got my ears neater um but you know, in terms of physical health, I probably am, but I don't. You know, in terms of physical health, I probably am, but I don't feel. You know, amazing. I still wake up with a headache every morning, but it just goes away now after a glass of water. It doesn't last all day.

Speaker 1:

Yeah, I mean they don't wake up and then they're ultramarathon runners. They don't put down the drink and pick up the trainers, and it's that quick. They have had to put work in.

Speaker 2:

Yeah, they have had to put work in. Yeah, maybe it's that. Maybe that's the problem. I did the gym for six months and then they changed the layout of it, so I never went back. Um, I've only just stopped paying for it, actually, so that was fun that's so reactive.

Speaker 1:

I love that yeah so dramatic. Um, I have to ask you. Um, you have a way of talking about beer on your socials and if nobody has ever checked you out on Instagram, I will put the link in the show notes and please do it immediately. And even though I know you're going to do it every time it gets me, I'm such a cheap laugh, clearly, but every single time you do it, I still absolutely.

Speaker 1:

Yeah, I pissed myself like a small child watching a like a jack-in-the-box and I what? What? What was the theory behind the reasoning behind why you do what you do so?

Speaker 2:

the way you do it. We, we were, um, on holiday. We'd been up to scotland for a wedding and on the way back I booked just one night in this really fancy like five-star hotel for one evening to be like, look at how fancy this is, look at us, we don't fit in here. And I had a red wine. So I was like if anyone's gonna do like a decent alcohol-free red, it's here. And I was drinking it. I was like bloody, oh, bloody hell, this is good. It doesn't taste like vinegar, it's amazing. And the waiter, he was like he had a moustache and three-piece suit, really like slicked back black hair, posh as anything. And he was like, oh, you know, with non-alcoholic reds, the best way to enjoy them is to keep them in the fridge. And he was really, really. It wasn't condescending, but it was just bizarre.

Speaker 1:

But I was talking he was loving his job yeah.

Speaker 2:

So then I went up into the um. We went up into the room afterwards and I did a story about this red wine to be like, oh, I've got this red, it's really good. Like, go and check it out. Go, if you can find it in the supermarkets, tell me where. And then, as a follow-up story, I did the whole like with with a red of this vintage, the best way to enjoy it is just to fucking down it.

Speaker 2:

And it was like it was just a very natural thing that that came with me, kind of mocking this posh man who worked in the restaurant and it got about 20 to 30 likes on a story and I was like, did people find that funny? I was like, okay, I'll do another one. And it was like all right, I'll do another one. And then I got really excited about it and I was like I'm just going to keep doing it. And now it's at the point where I almost want to. I want to take it past the point where people find it funny and just hammer it in. So people are like right, we get it now, but just I just want to keep going with it um yeah, it's a good excuse for more beers as well it's funny, isn't it?

Speaker 1:

I reckon. Imagine if you suddenly stopped doing it and just ended the video there. We'd all just be like, oh it'd be absolutely heartbreaking.

Speaker 2:

I really like the idea of people actually just getting sick of it and being like, okay, we get it now, and me just being like, no, I'm gonna keep doing it because this is funny, isn't it? This is a joke.

Speaker 1:

Um, I quite like that there's only like me and maybe two other people by the end that will be enjoying it no, because the thing is, you start it and you're watching it and you're like oh, we know where this is going, oh, he's gonna do it again. And then you do it, and then you realize you're pissing yourself. You're like god damn it, he got me again. Every fucking time.

Speaker 2:

I just dreamed that one day I get some form of like sitcom entrance and everyone knows what's gonna to happen.

Speaker 1:

Um, oh my god, canned laughter as you lift the glass to your lips with everyone.

Speaker 2:

I need to get more high brow down. That's for. That's what needs to happen next I see advertisement, advert campaigns.

Speaker 1:

I think you're going to get hired by somebody and there'll be a tv advert and you'll be looking over your shoulder going, oh hello, it's me and this is my non-alcoholic wine and it'll be, you know, everywhere, and I am here for it. Merch. There's got to be some merch you know what?

Speaker 2:

do you know what the worst thing is? And I shouldn't be admitting this? Um, well, I have talked about it a little bit, but I've got, at the moment I've got a weird like throat condition going on, um, but I've got to have, like, some tests. It's nothing serious, it's fine, but it's meaning that, like, my swallow reflex is really quite strained at the moment. So occasionally if I wanted to down a beer I would just choke. So I can't actually so my whole gimmick. I can't actually do it at the moment, and it's been like that for about two months.

Speaker 1:

So if anyone, was to watch me filming them.

Speaker 2:

It would literally be me like the best way to enjoy it is to fucking down it. And then I start, and then it's like it's really bad.

Speaker 1:

Oh my God, I don't mean to laugh, but yeah, that's just. Yeah, you're in trouble it sums it up, doesn't it?

Speaker 2:

You can't even drink alcohol free properly anymore.

Speaker 1:

I think, yeah, you're going to have to naturally phase that out. I think you're bringing something new. Everyone will suddenly be like oh, remember Ben, he used to be the guy that could down it.

Speaker 2:

And now he's just, you know, having a sip. I'm just sipping water for a straw.

Speaker 1:

Oh God, but doing it sober, sober, keeping it classy. Um, last, uh, last couple, yeah, last question what's going on for you now? What's the dream of sober boozes club, you know, other than, obviously, the advertising campaign that we've just pitched to anybody who is interested? Um, what are you doing with it? Where do you want to go?

Speaker 2:

I just want to keep drinking as many beers as possible and have as many conversations with with breweries about it. Um, I didn't ever think that I'd have any contact with like, we spoke about mash gang earlier, but being able to talk to those guys on quite a friendly basis is really nice. I've got a lot of people that will message me and ask for advice or just tips on what beers are good. Um, I mean, I'm not going to pretend I wouldn't love to get to be able to do it for money one day and just focus my entire life on this whilst being able to to live and eat. Um, but at the moment, I'm just really enjoying doing what I'm doing. I'm definitely not going to get into coaching, so don't worry about that. Um, because you know who the fuck am I to tell someone how to live their lives, but I'm always open to, uh, to a conversation. Um, yeah, just love to work with some breweries and to and to do anything that I can really yeah, I think you should uh definitely do a podcast.

Speaker 1:

I think that would be great. I would 100 tune in weekly to hear you chatting to a brewery about the wonderfulness of the whole market and uh, yeah, I'm really excited to see what happens next for you, because the tide is coming and you know you're definitely amongst the fish. I don't know where I'm going with that analogy. Stop right there, probably.

Speaker 2:

I do not remember the last time I was amongst the fish oh my god.

Speaker 1:

Yeah, just because I'm sober doesn't mean I've got a brain. Um, ben, I'll pop your details in the show notes. Like I said, um, people can find you on instagram and connect with you, and I highly recommend that they follow you. Um, for, yeah, just for the hilarity and for the absolutely amazing recommendations. I actually had a wheat beer the other day. Is it erdinger?

Speaker 2:

I think it's good. Yeah, I think it's good. Try their um. They do a great, they do a grapefruit one. That's really good.

Speaker 1:

Well, I actually thought of you as I was drinking it and I thought, oh ben would be proud. Look at me not just drinking, lucky saint, with me being brave she fancy I know I felt very fancy. It came in a very large bottle and a long neck erding neck, yeah and um and yeah and again it just it tasted I. I. Every time I have to check the bottle because I'm just like I don't see how this tastes different, because it just doesn't.

Speaker 2:

No, it's strange I am. I think I don't know if we spoke about this on the on the Instagram live, but I was at a wedding, um, and me and my girlfriend both had corona. I had the, um the one for babies, and she had, like the adult one, um and I said the sucky cup.

Speaker 2:

Yeah, yeah, that was me and I said, like, give me a bottle. And she looked at me in fright and I was like no, no, it's fine, I just want to try something. So I took a little and went, spat it out, but I just wanted to taste it to compare to see. I was just interested to be like that's, my palate changed and hers. It just tasted of chemical. It was really really weird yeah, like battery acid.

Speaker 2:

It was rank strange. Um, it was like if you stop smoking them and you pinch a cigarette off someone, it's just repulsive yeah, how interesting.

Speaker 1:

Well, I guess yeah, because you're not tasting the ingredients when you drink it. With the alcohol it is.

Speaker 2:

You know, it is all about that ethanol yeah, it was really bizarre, um, but very interesting. Don't do that if you're like, if you have, you know, don't do that, don't be like me yeah, yeah, this is not a recommended action everybody don't open that door.

Speaker 1:

Yeah, well, that's it. It's that door. And look, ben, thank you so much for just your openness and your honesty, um, because I think that you know somebody like you. You're young, relatively cool, you know you've had, you know you're somebody that I think people can look at.

Speaker 1:

Much, much like myself, ben, but it's people like you and I that I wish I'd seen more of when I was opening that door because maybe when I seen, when I hadn't opened that door and seen that you know, actually, being someone who can't drink, it's, it's okay. It doesn't mean that you're anything dirty ugly, as you were saying, awful, it just means you can't drink you're still a wonderful human and you, my friend ben, are definitely a wonderful human you are too, and for what it's worth.

Speaker 2:

I'm really proud of you for your journey as well oh, thank you, ben little loving.

Speaker 1:

Thank you so much for joining me today thank you for having me.