We Recover Loudly - Serving Essential Hospitality Conversations

S2 Episode 013 - Karl Considine - From Party Boy Persona to Authentic Sober Self

• Michelle Righini • Season 2 • Episode 13

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In this new episode, recorded late 2023, Shell talks to the wonderful Karl Considine back when he was still at the beginning of his journey with the now wildy successful Love From bar in Manchester.  

Throughout this heartfelt conversation, Karl peels back the layers of his experiences, discussing the stark realities of his former identity as the 'party boy' and the shift to a life where authenticity takes center stage. From confronting an identity crisis to building a new sense of self, he guides us through the intricate process of self-discovery that sobriety has ignited within him. His insights into the struggles with past habits, fears of relapse, and the joyous moments of living authentically offer a stirring glimpse into a life reclaimed.

We also discussed - 

  • The challenge of looking after yourself when working in hospitality as you are there to serve others .
  • Wearing you ability to work hard, party hard and repeat over and over as a badge of honour.
  • Drinking home and alone; the secret world of addiction and that road to isolation it takes us down.
  • The spectrum of extroversion and introversion.


Karl's unwavering commitment to fostering inclusive, safe spaces where people can recover and discover themselves is such an inspiring story.  He really is one of those unique humans with a very special heart and it was wonderful to chat to him.

To connect with Karl, head to his instagram @love.fromco and @whatnext.karl

For more information on We Recover Loudly and to reach out for speaking engagements or support email hello@werecoverloudly.com

@werecoverloudly
www.werecoverloudly.com

This episode is brought to you by our proud sponsors:

Low No Drinker Magazine @lownodrinkermagazine

www.lownodrinkermagazine.com

Speaker 1:

Hello and welcome to this week's episode of we Recover Loudly. Today I am joined by the Northern Sober superstar, carl Considine. Now Carl is approaching three years sobriety. Since putting down the bottle he went into treatment and he's managed to maintain that sobriety. So yeah, coming up for three years. But what he's done within that is not only just totally turn his life around but start to dedicate it to empowering other people to step into their sobriety and live these really big, exciting sober lives. So Carl's based up in Manchester. He has a sobriety podcast called what Next? And if you're from up north, you're going to know him definitely from the incredibly successful pop-up bar he recently did at Campus I always want to say Krampus, campus In Manchester and it was the first alcohol-free bar that Manchester's ever had called Love From. That bar was so successful that we've got a three-month permanent residency coming up, but we'll talk all about that before we get into all of the exciting business chat. How are you today, carl?

Speaker 2:

I am feeling very nice after that extremely warm and generous introduction. Thank you, shell. It's so good to be here and even though I wrote that bio, I listened back to it and I'm like, oh yeah, that's me. Those are the things that I've done. Um, yeah, it's wild. I'm feeling good. How are you?

Speaker 1:

yeah, no, it's the same, it's um. It's when you kind of hear back your own achievements, because you know, weirdly enough, we don't stand in the mirror in the morning and go, oh yeah, I'm awesome and oh yeah, I've done all of these things. But when you hear it back, it kind of it's almost sometimes like hearing it for the first time, and especially when you're used to only hearing you failed, you've done something wrong, you've messed up, you've been caught in a lie hearing nice things back.

Speaker 2:

It's yeah, so far it's not gotten old no, I agree, I agree, and I often find myself thinking god, when am I going to mess things up? I still have that. Um, because I spent so much time in my addiction, messing things up pretty much on a daily basis. Even coming up for three years down the line, I still find myself having that muscle memory of like, or have I done something wrong? I'm going to mess things up and, yeah, it's improved a lot, but it's still there a little bit, which is crazy, right.

Speaker 1:

Oh God, it's so bad, like I'm a little bit behind you in terms of sobriety, a few months, but it's yeah, it's not gone away. I hope it does. But I'll still get the chills, you know, like a parental message or something with just quite a short and sharp where are you today? Or how are you today? You know, my mum is awful when it comes. She's getting better. Finally, she's terrible at you. Not using punctuation or emojis, you know. So it'll just be like where are you today? And you'll be like she'll just mean where are you today? But it's the chill, isn't it? The whole, your whole system goes into that fight or flight, or, uh, fight or quickly pull together, a lie out of the, out of your ass and get yourself out of the situation, which is, uh was normally the case.

Speaker 1:

The same with work you know we're so used to not being at our best, not performing at our best, and even now, anytime I have a meeting with my manager or anything like that, and I know I've done the best that I can, I'm still positively sure that she is going to fire me every time yeah, yeah, I totally feel.

Speaker 2:

Yeah, I totally feel, yeah, and it it's funny because, um, we were. People always used to describe me as like a cat with nine lives, or like really resourceful, or always landing on my feet. And what did my nan used to say? She used to say that I had a blessed life, and there was a lot that my nan didn't see, but a lot of that was because I'd always be in situations but somehow managed to always land on my feet, so to speak.

Speaker 2:

The version of landing on my feet then, versus what that is now, is very different, because it was, um, supporting quite basic needs to live day to day.

Speaker 2:

But, yeah it, I think, um, I use the term addicts and I'm sorry if you're uncomfortable with that, but as addicts, um, you know, that's how, um, I think, we learn to be resourceful and we build up such a resilience with dealing with the consequences of our addiction that it almost becomes a skill and actually, to put a silver lining on it, then you carry that resilience forward with you into sobriety, because getting sober is the most difficult thing that I've ever done, and so, yeah, it's kind of double-sided I've got that resilience and I've got that strength and motivation to move forward. But, exactly as you've just described, sometimes I'll be like someone wants to chat or you know, you get that message or a call and you're like shit, what have I done? And it's like, oh, actually I don't have anything to cover up anymore because, like, I'm living an authentic, transparent, truthful life. And you know, yeah, I'm not saying I don't make mistakes because I make mistakes all the time, but there are not things that I've done intentionally or as a result of me being wasted.

Speaker 1:

Yeah, exactly, and in a weird way it's almost sometimes when you have, when you do make those mistakes, it's almost a pleasure because you're able to at least kind of. It's weird, the process of acceptance and changing doesn't make you feel like you want to die inside, and it's a really refreshing state to be in, to not constantly be waiting for the next attack it's in. I like how we were saying about, yeah, being in that survival mode and it probably just doesn't make. It probably won't make a lot of sense to people that aren't in active addiction. And by addiction this can be, you know, this can be obviously drugs and alcohol, but it's any kind of behavior that has become so entrenched in your life that it's the the only thing that you think about and, like you say, it becomes survival because that that thing that you're using is the only thing that you know that will keep you alive that day.

Speaker 1:

And you do put yourself into situations and make decisions based on life and death, because that's what it feels like in your head and therefore, like you say, it is, it's, it's pure survival. And I think sometimes I can understand why people struggle to have the compassion, some perhaps, or the empathy, because there's not really anything in normal life, real life, that can equate to it. You know, imagine, and just a person that's got no problem with alcohol or drugs, imagine waking up and there being this one thing that if you don't do it today, you feel like you will die. Whether or not it's real or not, you know, but it doesn't matter, because in your head it's that big, yeah, and and it just dominating every decision you make, and and and then imagine someone. Just stop, just give it up it's, it's scary, isn't it?

Speaker 2:

because it, I agree, like, and I wouldn't expect someone who hasn't got that lived experience to understand, um, if you do understand grit but I wouldn't ever put that on someone, but it I know there are. You know, if we think about why there's stigma attached to the word addiction, and for me, like, my view is that is because so many people think that addiction is a lifestyle choice or a character flaw. You know, I hear language like addictive personality, which I'm not a particular fan of. Um, you know I've got a personality, but the reason why I'm an addict isn't because my personality has a tendency to want to, um, do something that is bad for myself repeatedly.

Speaker 2:

It is because I've got a personality trait yeah, like that's just wild to think about it in that way. You know, first of all we're talking about addictive substances that um trigger our reward system biologically in our brains, but then using that as for me it's symptomatic of dealing with something under lighting um that needs to be dealt with. And you know, I'm in fellowship and I've been in fellowship since when I came out of treatment. I started to get into fellowship as that was a good way of me keeping connected and keeping sober. And I hear language a lot that is in the space of kind of holding the soul and filling a void. And you know, for me that language really resonates and, like you say, whatever it is, whether it's alcohol, drugs, and sometimes I still have that hole in my soul and I go and eat a load of cake or like I spend a week just binge watching television Cake's a great hole filler.

Speaker 2:

Give me all the cake.

Speaker 1:

Oh my God, Yeah's, it works really well. But it's true, I mean like as a child, do you do? You do you remember feeling that way? I know it's definitely for me. I always felt like somebody that kind of didn't quite get the guidebook on life. Did you feel that same kind of hole in the soul from a very early age, or was it something that later, kind of on, became more apparent?

Speaker 2:

yeah, I did, and I think, um having spent a lot of time on this in treatment and in therapy subsequently, there's a few things that I figured out as to why that was it. You know, I don't think I was brought into this world as a person that was always just going to feel different. I think events in my life contributed to that belief that I had about myself, and I experienced a lot of trauma in my childhood. My parents separated when I was really young and unfortunately, when they separated, my mum met a heroin addict and married him within the space of six months and life at home became very, very disruptive and I was nine years old at the time and sadly that resulted in my mum getting into drugs and alcohol and all sorts of stuff happening in the home in terms of violence, domestic violence, abuse, etc. And I had to, it's fair to say. As a result of that, I just had to grow up very quickly and I became the parent for my siblings and also the parent for my mum, because she just wasn't looking after herself. So I wasn't playing out with my mates, I wasn't going to school and as a result of all of that, I just never felt a sense of belonging or connection with people around me. You know, I didn't feel that in my family unit at home. I didn't feel that externally with my social relationships as a young, developing child, right, and that just stuck with me throughout life.

Speaker 2:

I've definitely always had this sense of just struggling with life and with responsibilities, model or a manual for what being a responsible adult and what living a kind of structured, responsible life looks like, because I never saw that. That's not an experience I've ever had. And so even now, as a 39 year old, I can really struggle with day-to-day responsibilities, which is wild because, you know, at the moment I'm running a new business and, um, it's kind of from one thing to the next. But then I have days where I'm like god, I'm really struggling just doing a wash and cleaning the apartment, um, some of that like quite basic looking after myself stuff, and what I learned in therapy is that I need to spend more time thinking about what little car would have needed then, because that's probably also what car needs today, um, so, yeah, that that sense of struggle has definitely always been with me do you think you spent like I mean?

Speaker 1:

certainly, something that not only I can relate to, but a lot of people in the hospitality industry, is that we, we spend so much time looking after others and that's kind of always that priority. And looking after self, it's not only something that you don't do, but you always wear it as a badge of honor when you don't. You know, there's a lot of kind of pride almost in no, no, I haven't eaten yet today. Or no, no, I haven't done this or that. But look at what I have achieved and it's almost that desperation for approval, or, yeah, approval to say well done, look how much you've sacrificed and yet look how much we've taken from your sacrifice.

Speaker 2:

You know a hundred percent? Yeah, it's. I think it manifests people pleasing, doesn't it? You know, if you think about it, really working in hospitality is people pleasing, is the job? Um, you're providing a service and you know there's an expectation as to what that service will look like and how good it is, and you know if you can make someone feel good, if you can make someone's day better, um, you're going to get like a dopamine hit from that as the person providing the service. But then that's what you're doing, day in, day out, constantly people pleasing and putting others before yourself.

Speaker 2:

It's not the most straightforward thing to clock off and then suddenly flick a switch and be like OK, time to look after me and it's super nuanced, right, there's so much that plays into it.

Speaker 2:

Hospitality shifts along, the job is demanding, the job is emotional, and so when you flick the switch off, it's not necessarily the go-to to think, okay, I'm going to go home and do some journaling and meditate, I'm going to have a drink, right, and chill out, because you know, alcohol is obviously in society what we need for chilling out, for dealing with stress, for dealing with sadness, but then actually also dealing with happiness and celebration and good times, and so we actually use it as a crutch for everything, not just for one type of emotion. Or feeling it is, you know the language is let's have a drink, have a drink. Or feeling, um it is, you know the language is let's have a drink, have a drink. Um, and that is just so normalized and um, even in hospitality I've seen glamorized um as a thing to um kind of take to the next level and be proud of well, god, yeah, absolutely, and and also there's a massive badge of honor with taking it too far, but then the next day not suffering from it.

Speaker 1:

You know, like pushing down, the fact that you feel a bit like shit. And you know, coming to work the next day, I used to be dying on the inside. I didn't ever suffer from hangovers in the traditional sense, so like the headaches and things like that, but I would feel like I'd been beaten up and you know I would be exhausted. And you know, because I drink, to get to bed, um, you know, by my mind would always be racing after work, like you just described. You know our industry we're running on adrenaline. We get home, we've got maybe an hour and a half window to do everything, because if we don't go to bed within an hour and a half, we're looking at, you know, kind of five hours, six hours sleep before the next shift.

Speaker 1:

And I used to drink because I didn't know how to get to sleep. I'd be like, right, I have to have at least a glass of wine to turn my brain off, which obviously then turns into two, three. We all know how them. We all know how addict maths works. We all know how them. We all know how addict maths works and um if I have one glass of wine but I buy three bottles, then it works out better.

Speaker 1:

um, obviously, and, but the sleep that you get is hauling up, hauling, and so, yeah, I would wake up the next day feeling like I was dying from exhaustion, and and yeah, but because I didn't get the headaches, I would think, oh, I can handle this, I'm doing fine. Obviously, in hindsight, you realize that what you accept as being your, your fine, is really below par when it comes to the kind of life you accept yourself for sobriety. But I had a huge pride in going to work the next day makeup on fresh dress, hair done, hey, everybody, what's up? And, and I would almost revel in the fact that others were struggling and just have this such a facade of normalcy. And but actually underneath I wasn't, you know, it's that mask wearing, isn't it?

Speaker 2:

Yeah, it's so interesting because I haven't spent much time thinking about that in sobriety and just listening to you describe it has, would wear it as a badge of honour. And I was always, always, always the person in my friendship group, in the work group going out, always the person that would take it too far. You know, one drink was too many, a thousand, never enough, and I would see it almost as a because I was able to consume such a ridiculous amount of alcohol, which you know, looking back now, is obviously crazy and and it was. It was exactly again as you've described. It was paired with not only being able to handle my booze on the night, but then being able to follow up the next day by going into work and laughing it all off.

Speaker 2:

And you know all of the banter about the night before and what I got up to, and it would always be. The questions would always be oh, where did you end up? Because everyone else would leave and I'd be the last man standing and you know I'd meet people, randoms, that I don't know, and I'd end up going somewhere else. Or, you know, then, if everywhere was closed, it'd be like right, whose house are we going back to? Let's pick something up from the 24 hour offy and I just didn't have an off switch and no-transcript. So, bringing it back to what I just said in terms of being a kid and not feeling a sense of belonging or having a place, I found my sense of belonging in being a pissed up idiot that could show off through being able to drink a load and that gave me a really unhealthy, toxic sense of belonging that in some sort of way did give me some, you know, emotional validation, but was really, really bad for me and ultimately became my downfall absolutely very eloquently put.

Speaker 1:

Yeah, it's that validation and acceptance that we search for and and and like just having people like you say. You know, there was almost a pride, a sense of pride and achievement, and it's just so misplaced, it's so dysfunctional when you think about it, and yet, at the same time, it makes complete sense, and I mean to me, my drinking and using was slightly different, and in a way, it's even more ridiculous now. I say it out loud in that I didn't really drink when I went out. Um, obviously I did at times, but again, I had a massive I. I never wanted to appear not in control, and I never used to enjoy holding a glass. Um, I just found it really awkward.

Speaker 1:

So I would always drink a drink very quickly, and then I would be the first one, kind of like running around and fussing and yeah, okay, cool, what we're doing next. I'd always be the one organizing things, and I would not not drink out, but I wouldn't necessarily. You know, there's no photos of me lying in a gutter anywhere, for example. There's no photos of me doing something I shouldn't be doing. I would always go home, though and it was the moment that I shut the door on my bedroom, if I was in a shared living or on my own flat, when I was on my own and the deafening silence and isolation and the smack of realization that I was alone used to be so full of just despair. That's when things would get darker and that's when I'd probably have another bottle of wine, you know gram of coke, another bottle of wine, and I'd get to work the next day and I would feel awful and almost like I had this extra secret, because what people didn't realize was the additional.

Speaker 1:

And again, that's one of the reasons why in the end there was a bit of a surprise with by, with some people like that, things had gotten as bad as they had because I had this whole secret world and actually, without getting too dramatic, but actually that little person, that young shell, you know, like you mentioned, young Carl, that person hadn't gone anywhere. I was still exactly the same kid when I shut the door, feeling completely lost, overwhelmed, not feeling like I belonged, totally alone and being in that was just too heartbreaking, so I needed to escape it. You know, and I think sometimes it's like you say, it's like there's a real lack of compassion and understanding around addiction. But if you really understand why we're doing it. You know what is the pain.

Speaker 2:

As Gabor Mate says yeah, wow, that's so powerful, um, and so sad that you know, ultimately the road leads to isolation and, um, that sense of being alone, um, and I can definitely resonate with that because, although I talk about being in these like I am just kind of getting through life by myself the best that I can and the only way that I know how to medicate that is through finding oblivion in alcohol and drugs. And it took me such a long time to realise that, to make that kind of connection, correlation, that that's what was happening. For a long time I just thought I was a party boy. I genuinely just thought that I absolutely loved socializing, clubbing, house music, being with other people getting off my face like next level off my face. I just thought I really loved that stuff.

Speaker 2:

And, don't get me wrong, in my late teens, 20s, I definitely can look back with some fondness on some good times that I've had. Um, but if you strip it all back really behind the scenes, I was struggling with who I was as a person, the life that I'd experienced as a young person, and I just felt very alone. So, yeah, I can really identify with that and there's a saying that goes isn't there, that addiction is the opposite of? Is it connection Addiction?

Speaker 1:

is about connection. Connection is the opposite of addiction. Yeah, jo, harry, that's and it is, it's very true. But I don't know if you would relate, I'm sure you you will like growing up for me as a young, young person, for whatever reasons, without getting into, you know, without getting the sofa out, the therapist sofa, but I never felt safe being me. My character never felt safe.

Speaker 1:

Um, I was, I came from um South Africa. We moved over here when I was very young, um, so I had a slightly funny voice when I was little. You know I had my little Afrikaans accent and you know my parents were from a different country, which is in the 80s, which isn't a thing back in the 80s, you know it was a bit different. So I always kind of stood out slightly. Um, I've been diagnosed with ADHD last year, so obviously at that time we didn't know. But again, looking back, you can see there were certain behavior traits which meant that I really struggled to make close family, close friendships or kind of maintain friendship groups. So I would always have very intense, almost obsessive friendships that would then explode within like eight weeks, um, sorry, eight months, or something you know I can pinpoint over my life, like these really, really almost yeah, obsessive connections that I would have with these best friends, um, that would then just fizzle out, and one of the things, though, that I would have with these best friends, that would then just fizzle out. And one of the things, though, that I learned from very, very, very young, that was being me. It didn't feel safe.

Speaker 1:

You know, I liked different music to everybody else. I really liked kind of grunge, and Britpop was just my life Absolutely obsessed. But nobody at school was into Britpop. You know, we were all like 11, 12 years old. Everyone was listening to I don't know whatever they were. I don't. No one was, you know, and I would.

Speaker 1:

I remember getting kind of like ostracized in this. Uh, oh, you think you're so cool, don't you? Because you listen to the red hot chili peppers and just like even you know, we know now people with ADHD suffer from rejection sensitivity disorder, which is massive, now, a hundred percent. That was all that needed to happen, and it's so ridiculous that I can literally remember where I was sat, in which classroom, the person who said it to me, because, and the whole situation around it, and the whole situation around it, and just feeling absolutely shattered in that moment because I'd shared something of something of self and it was like bolt. You know, that's it. I'm bolted and it's it's crazy. Well, it's not crazy in a way, because now we understand, but it's it's that whole kind of now, because we're in sobriety, we can look back and go yeah, that now will make sense.

Speaker 1:

But it was all those little moments that just kept reaffirming to me being Shell is not safe. Do not be her and do whatever you can to escape her. Exactly like you. You were just. You know you put on this character and exactly the same. You know I put down alcohol, drugs started over the last two years to do the older, you know self-discovery and shit like that, and I'm finding out things about myself that I'm like oh I'm, I'm not like that, I don't want to do that. Wait a second second. And it's quite fascinating, isn't it?

Speaker 2:

It's so interesting. It's so interesting and I know this is a bit of a cliche, but you know, identity crisis in my first year or so of sobriety was strong, literally going from spending any spare time that I have got drinking and taking drugs to having the gift of everyone's like. Oh, sobriety gets so much time back and I didn't want all that time at first because I was like, well, what the hell do I do with it? I've got no idea what my interests are, what I'm into, I don't know how to spend that time, I don't know what type of people I like and also I don't know myself. The biggest thing is connecting with yourself right, and that's really scary when you kind of don't like yourself and you're still carrying lots of guilt and shame from the life that you've lived for such a long time. So, yeah it.

Speaker 2:

I went through such an identity crisis and um definitely entered a really um, a really uh what's the word? A lot of self-discovery anyway, um, and I'm pleased to say that, like I do understand myself so much better now and also some things have gone 180 on the person I thought I was and the person I actually am. So, as I described, you know me being the kind of the person that would take it too far on nights out. And also when I did go to school, in the same vein, I was getting into trouble because the school kids would be like Carl do this and I do it, and again, it was all for attention. It was me trying to find my place and, um, you know, I was quite naughty as a kid and that was from everything that was going on at home.

Speaker 2:

But people have always said, oh, you're very extroverted and like I'm the extrovert and the party boy and all of this stuff. And what I've learned actually is is I'm not a massive fan, first of all, of someone being an extrovert or an introvert in a binary sense, because it's a spectrum and we flow in and out of extroversion and introversion, dependent on the environment we're in and how we're feeling and all of this stuff. But I'm definitely not a full-on extroverted person. If anything, I'm like a slightly extroverted, introvert, and when I look at introverted qualities and tendencies, they resonate with me more now than they ever have done, and so it's yeah, it's. You're figuring all this stuff out, aren you? And it's quite a lot to take in.

Speaker 1:

It is, and I don't necessarily, it's not necessarily something that we speak openly about enough, because when you were saying the words identity crisis identity crisis like because of not just my addictions, but because of being very codependent as a person, you know, because of my ADHD as well, over my life I've always kind of grabbed onto other people's identities because, like I say, you know, from a young age, being what I felt was authentic was shut down or shamed or whatever.

Speaker 1:

And I can remember I created this character, showgirl shell, you know, and when I got sober, like just even my clothes, they weren't the right clothes anymore and and I didn't know what to wear, nothing felt right and and and I remember getting quite upset because I just and again, it only it seems to be only other people that have been through maybe this kind of sobriety journey that would understand why that would be upsetting. But you're standing in a clothes shop and you don't know what you like, or someone says to you what do you want for dinner? And you don't know because you've never asked yourself what you want for dinner, and and I can remember it being, yeah, quite yeah, a bit traumatic in a way, and just it's like people say oh, you get your life back. You know you get your life back and all of that, but I don't think you do, and thank god for that, but you don't, because you've get. For the very first time in your life, you get to ask yourself the question what do I need?

Speaker 1:

yeah and actually that even in itself, is really challenging at times, which is great, you know, and I don't know about you, but there was a lot of grief over that, I'm certainly. I think, another thing that we don't necessarily could well, what I was then guilty of initially, in my initial sobriety, was becoming Sober Shell. I became the character of Sober Shell. I was like, right, I'm gonna eat vegetables, I'm going to wear lilac, I'm going to be softly spoken, I'm going to wear lilac, I'm going to be softly spoken, I'm going to help everybody. You know, do you know cause it feels, I think because we're so used to wearing a character. It's like, right, what character is going to work for this? You know next scene or something. But even that, you know it's. It's just like pick it, it's, it's basically just picking. It's continuing those same sad habits, isn't it?

Speaker 2:

Yeah, I definitely identify with that. It is, yeah, self-discovery has been a bit of a hill to climb, but I can say more positively, like in approaching three years, that I actually I know what I like, I know what I want to spend my time, situations that I don't want to be in, and having confidence in boundaries I want to put in place to avoid those situations and all of that type of thing. And you know it's. I've gone a bit textbook with my self-discovery because for me my thing has become fitness and well, you're not a runner, are you Carl?

Speaker 2:

yeah, I run every morning, I run every day um I wait train and I go to spin classes and I go to yoga and I go to breathwork workshops and all of this stuff. And there's an argument to say that, like I've become a cliche, I've become a cliche. Um, do you know what? I'm happy with it.

Speaker 2:

I'm totally fine with that um, that is a great I've always been like the person that stood out and, like you know, whether it's because I was an addict or because I was queer, like for whatever reason I've always felt like I stood out and it's quite nice now, just uh, you know, we talk about life beyond your wildest dreams and my kind of routine life going to the gym, going, going for a run, looking after myself. I'm happy with all that stuff. But I did do a couple of those things that you mentioned in early sobriety. So I think I was. I think I was two months into recovery when I announced I was a vegetarian and then I was three months in when I announced that I was a vegan, and it was always an announcement. It's like, oh, here I am, this is this like new part of me, this valued way of living? And you know no disrespect to any of that, because I'm also glad to say that. You know I am still on that path. I haven't gone back to eating meat and all of that stuff.

Speaker 2:

But actually, when I dig into that, what I think for me is I make decisions now, like lifestyle choices and decisions that are more aligned to my values as a person, and in addiction I spend so much time constantly making decisions that were against my values, against the person that I was, um, but no one ever got to see those values or that person, because everything that I was doing externally was just not great.

Speaker 2:

And so now it feels really nice to be in a position where, yeah, I do make decisions, um, that are based on, like, how I want to live my life, and how I want to live my life is authentically and is to do a bit of good in the world, and you know I'm quite comfortable and confident with that now, um, but it's taken me a little while to get there and I definitely experienced some people in my life eye rolling, you know, in the early days, when, you know, I was suddenly going to the gym all the time and I had a PT and I was banging on about being bloody vegan and I'm pleased to say, I'm not one of those anymore. I've chilled out a little bit, but again, that was seeking validation rather than just getting on with your life and living it, and connection and community, and all of that.

Speaker 1:

And it's like well, I've been kicked out of the addict club, so which club can I get to? And but it's funny I'll be in this club, please. Um, you know, but also in a, in a weird way, you know. It's like like, oh great, now he's bloody vegan. It's like, well, no, maybe car was always vegan yeah inside.

Speaker 1:

You know, even things like that, like it feels like these, brand new. Like you said, oh god, she suddenly did x and y and it's like no, no, it's just, we never had the chance to realize that, like you said, about values and not aligning with values, and our behavior is not aligning with our values. But at the time I wouldn't have been able to tell you what my values were like. With a gun to my head. I wouldn't have been able to, whereas you know you. You mentioned my favorite word that I've learned in sobriety boundaries. Now, if there's anything I'm addicted to at the minute other than shortbread, it's boundaries, boundary. Where the fuck has that been all my life? No, thank you, I. I won't be answering that phone call.

Speaker 1:

No, thank you, love it, there's nothing more empowering than real life, than putting value on your own time. I never gave myself any value, any value for time that I spend with other people, my creative kind of output, just anything. I will give you anything and everything for free, and it would always be even better if, by giving it to you, it hurt me. That was my ultimate. Let me give you everything and then, as long as it really fucking causes me pain, then I feel like I've won. Now, oh, it's just, and, to be honest, I'm a little bit concerned that I've become a bit too obsessed with boundaries and I'm isolating, but that's a different podcast.

Speaker 2:

It's giving personal growth. It's giving personal growth. And you know, back to the start of the conversation people pleasing it's not giving.

Speaker 1:

people pleasing it's not putting others before yourself, which is really important in saying that time spent with you I think maybe in the past as well there's almost like a not necessarily a guilt, but kind of a maybe it is a guilt or an off balance where you think I'm such a piece of shit to hang out with, therefore I need to give more, whereas now you slowly but surely get self-worth, self-confidence, pride and you're able to say hang on, I'm actually all right to spend an hour with and therefore I'm going to make sure that that hour is two-sided, rather than me just. You know what I mean because, like we're not, we're not thinking of ourselves as we're not thinking they're the ones doing us a service by spending time with us.

Speaker 1:

Yeah, yeah yeah, you know we're worth being around.

Speaker 2:

Yeah, yeah, you want to hang out.

Speaker 1:

You can't sit with us. We've got value now.

Speaker 2:

We've got value, we've got meaning, we've got purpose.

Speaker 1:

Yeah, if you want to sit with us.

Speaker 2:

Make a booking?

Speaker 1:

no, honestly speak to my virtual assistant literally, but it is and and hope this is a kind of a slightly awkward segue into what you're doing now, but a little bit of a segue, um, because I want to talk about, obviously, love, um, love, co and everything that's going on. Um, yeah, but in a strange way, what you are we're not in a strange way in the way you are building spaces for people who are. They don't have to be sober, they can go home and have a bag of cocaine and three bottles of wine if they want. So it's not about that. But there is also an element that you're building spaces for people who are coming out of this cocoon and this kind of you know, not knowing who they are, not knowing how to behave in a safe space, not knowing and it's quite a special place you probably find that you find yourself in. So I mean, tell us all about what you've been up to this last few months and what's ahead a lot, a lot.

Speaker 2:

Yeah, it's um. So, yeah, I guess, um, as you say, I launched an alcohol-free bar in Manchester last month and initially that was launched as a pop-up with the intention of just testing a couple of things really like. First of all, you know, is it something that there's appetite for in Manchester? Are people interested in coming to an alcohol-free space? And if they do, do they have a good time? And but also, you know, I've never run a hospitality venue, so a bit of a test for myself as to is this what I want to do? But I guess, like stripping it back to the why, um, I've been, I've worked in the corporate world for um 15 years, a long, long time, and, um, although corporate life served me well and, you know, provided financial stability and all of those other nice life things, it just wasn't rewarding for me as a career and as a job. And again, going back to making life decisions in sobriety, I think you become much clearer on what's important. You become much clearer on what's important, you know, if you go to the lengths of dragging your ass out of addiction, then for me it just wasn't an option to rock up to a job every day. That doesn't bring me joy, and I also wanted to. It became really important to me for my story and my journey to have a positive impact on the world and on other people. So, before quitting my corporate career and making that hasty decision, at the start of this year I launched my podcast what Next? And what Next is very similar to we Recover Loudly, in that I chat with guests that have experienced sobriety, whether that's as a result of addiction or actually just they've decided to not drink anymore. And the reason I wanted to do that was to reach other people and to try and normalize some of the conversations in that space. And you know, what I found as a result of doing the pod was, um, people would get in touch to say, oh, that's really helped me and I really identify with a lot of what's been discussed, and so, yeah it. That was kind of me dipping my toe in the water.

Speaker 2:

And then this summer I took a bit of a leap of faith and I resigned from my corporate job, knowing that I was going to do that. I had a bit of a loose plan in place and the dream was to open an alcohol-free bar in Manchester, and I remember people saying to me oh, what are you going to do? And I was like, oh, I'm going to open an alcohol-free bar. And people were like, what, like how and why and all of these things, and obviously my close friends got it, but it's quite a niche thing, right and um. And at the time when people asked me how, I had no fucking idea. I didn't have a plan, I didn't know I'd not run a venue, I didn't have space lined up. Uh, you know, I've not worked behind a bar and made cocktails, anything like that.

Speaker 2:

I had very little knowledge in this space, but I knew what I wanted to do was challenge social norms and perceptions around what it means to be alcohol-free, because people assume and maybe not to generalize that much, but a lot of people assume that if you're sober, teetotal, alcohol-free, whatever language you use, that you must be an addict and you must have had a problem. And for me, actually, that story is accurate. I was an addict. I'm in recovery now. But there are so many reasons why people don't drink, whether it be experiences with addiction, through to religious beliefs, through to dealing with health conditions, through to not liking the taste of alcohol, not wanting to drink like. There are a whole host of reasons, right, but also there's a massive population of people that have got no desire to stop drinking, but they still want to drink less because they notice the effects of alcohol. Want to drink less because they notice the effects of alcohol, whether it be hangovers, anxiety, tiredness, um, you know, the world is becoming more cliche, coming uh, health conscious, um, as am I, um, and so people are just more mindful, and there are loads of stats out there. So a piece of research was done on the impacts of the COVID-19 pandemic and since that world health crisis, they reckon 33% of people have reduced their alcohol consumption. So, you know, world health crisis over here, a third of people are more mindful now of how much alcohol they consume because they give a shit about their health.

Speaker 2:

You know, a lot of people were scared into thinking, oh, how do I look after myself better? And yeah, that's not necessarily a nice way to go into it, but you know, it's made people kind of wake up a little bit more in that space, um, and so yeah, there's, I think there's a massive market out there. But also, what was obvious to me is for people like me that don't drink and other people I know that don't drink. You know I go to bars and I go to clubs and all of that stuff. You know I'm going to a massive rave tomorrow night and I'm able to luckily have a good time, but I know that's not the case for everyone. And although I'm able to luckily have a good time, but I know that's not the case for everyone, and although I'm able to have a good time, it does get to a certain point in the night where I'm like I'm out because the dynamic changes, like the gear shifts and suddenly everyone around you is on a completely different level. And so, yeah, I wanted to create a space that is the solution to all of that stuff, really, um.

Speaker 2:

So last month hosted the pop-up, uh, so love from's, an alcohol-free bar that um serves cocktails but also lots of different alcohol alternatives and soft drinks etc. And also we host cool events. So I've done like loads of amazing partnerships with brands like Manchester Pride and Sober Girls Society and through partnering with kind of events partners. In that way we've been able to bring together a bit of a community and, it's fair to say, it's gone really well. And my fears of god, are people going to show up? I've all just been completely disproven, because people showed up in their droves and the first week that we were open we had people queuing to get in and people were very curious and although there were a lot of sober people in the space, we met so many people that still drink regularly and again I've got no desire to start up but just want to drink less. Yeah, it's been great. It's been great and as a result of that, I'm going to be running a three month residency, which is kicking off in January next year, for three months in Manchester City Centre and that's also then developed into.

Speaker 2:

I've had festivals reaching out to me and I've got festivals interested in booking me for next summer to have an alcohol free bar, in booking me for next summer to have an alcohol-free bar, and you know it's wild. To me it's full circle moment, because my idea of going to a festival as an addict was right. How much, how many drugs do I need? How much booze do I need, like, how can I like take it to the extent, the furthest, furthest extent that you can take it to? I'm in an environment where at a music festival, like, my behavior won't be noticed as much because everyone's getting on it. You know, to go from that being my vision of festivals to now me talking about having a stand at festivals that sells drinks that are essentially like mimicking an alcoholic drink, but they've got no booze in them, is amazing, because that is going to help me to achieve my mission of kind of redefining those perceptions yeah, absolutely.

Speaker 1:

I want to do a big bravo, but I don't think it will translate on the podcast. I'm doing a massive applause, listeners, because Thank you, because, like you know, you said so much there. It's like people, what the challenge that hospitality operators need to well, not the challenge, the hurdle that they need to themselves get over is thinking that they're serving this brand new human who has emerged from, you know, the gates of rehab and now wants to go out and have a drink. It's not, it's everybody.

Speaker 1:

There are more and more people who are being mindful, who don't necessarily want to drink every single day, who also, then, don't want to necessarily go and have a coffee somewhere. You know they still want a nice drink, they still want to make fun, they still want something different, they still want to be challenged, you know, with their taste buds, and you know there's there's just this really unfortunate assumption. I mean, I was with somebody, um a few couple of days ago, um, discussing um a business opportunity, and and he made a comment like but yeah, don't you, don't people who don't drink, though they want to be around people that drink because that's the fun, right, that's the vibe. Like, surely you want the fun and the vibe to be around those people, and I thought in my head like you guys don't realize how unfun you are, do you?

Speaker 2:

It's the most boring thing, just doing the same thing day in, day out, repetitively, like on repeat drink, drink, drink. And that's not said with any judgment, because I was that person.

Speaker 1:

I've been the leader of that.

Speaker 2:

Yeah, it's like alcohol free doesn't mean boring.

Speaker 1:

It's not synonymous with not fun, it is oh, my god, yeah, and actually, and that's exactly it and we need to start and we are, but we need to really be pushing that hard. Like just because we're sober doesn't mean we want to be in bed by nine o'clock, although I do. Just because we're sober doesn't mean that I don't want my music loud, I don't want my. You know like I want to drink, I want to wear a nice dress, it was. It was like Colette's um Myth Drinks Colette saying you know, I want to go out, I want to put a nice dress on, I want to wear my nice lipstick, I want to go and listen to music and I don't want to do it holding a can of Fanta. You know like, these aren't people that are wanting to hide in the shadows because, to be honest, our addictions have meant that we've hidden in the shadows our entire life.

Speaker 2:

So give us a bloody stage because we're out and we're so and we're telling you all about it I love how, on one hand in the conversation, we're like oh, I'm so introverted and quiet now, and then, on the other hand, we're like let me scream and shout about sobriety. It's amazing. But it's about getting comfortable with that, isn't it?

Speaker 1:

Yeah, it's all balanced, Carl. I'm also very introverted. I'm going to be very quiet for the next hour, I promise.

Speaker 2:

No, I totally feel you and that's what is at the heart of Love From basically, you know, if you're a non-drinker or if you're just not having a drink on a night out and you go to a normal bar, often you're faced with the option of having a diet coke, a coke, or a soda and lime.

Speaker 2:

And actually I don't just want to provide safe space in a gorgeous environment. I want people to be able to say fuck, that I'm not having a kind of fantastic here in my beautiful dress. I'm going to have a delicious cocktail that served in a really nice glass and treats me as a grown-up. Um, unlike, like the experience that I get elsewhere and we had so many people through the doors customers that you know still drink cocktails, for example but were like oh god, your old fashion was like, like for like or like your cosmo was amazing. And and people say, no, you know, it would make me think twice about whether I actually need one now, because I could come here and have like your version and I'm like yes, that's music to my ears exactly.

Speaker 1:

No, it is. It's amazing. I'm so, so proud of all the work you're doing and I'm so excited for 2024 because it's going to be um, it's going to be a massive one for you and and for the community, and um, I'm yeah, I think it's just as I say often on this show um, it's great, great time to be sober. Everybody, it's a very good time to be sober. There are some brilliant things happening. Um, if people want to get in touch with you, no more where's the best place for them to find you so, uh, love from is on instagram and tiktok, which is at lovefromco, and my insta is at.

Speaker 2:

What next dot carl with a k, with a kikinka? Um, so yeah followers for updates. It's very early days. We've loved from. You know. We've had the pop-up, we've got the residency coming up in the background. I'm looking for a permanent space. I'm also still figuring out, like what people want and need. But there's loads happening and it's all happening right now. So if you give us a follow, you'll be able to see um what's going on amazing, awesome, and I'll make sure all of those links will be in the show notes.

Speaker 1:

Um, thank you so much for your time today, carl. I really appreciate it. I appreciate everything you're doing, like I said, for the community and, like I said, just watch this space, everybody, because there's some really cool, cool things coming up north. Um, we're gonna have to move up north. That's, that's the result of this conversation. We all just need to move to manchester by the sound of it oh, it's right, nice up north, lovely.

Speaker 2:

Oh, shell, it's been a pleasure I really enjoyed it.

Speaker 1:

Thank you for having me oh, thank you so much for your time. Thank you.