We Recover Loudly - Serving Essential Hospitality Conversations

S2 Episode 024 - Tony Kost - From Shadows of Addiction to Shining in Sobriety

• Michelle Righini • Season 2 • Episode 24

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In this new episode, Shell is joined by Tony Kost, an amazing advocate for sobriety in the hospitality industry. He shares his inspiring journey from the dive bars of his youth to working alongside culinary legends like Iron Chef Michael Simon, a path that unfortunately took a downturn due to alcoholism. Tony is gearing up to celebrate 8 years of sobriety in the coming weeks, and he truly embodies the fact that it is possible to thrive in a bar focused career while also maintaining sobriety.

Tony opens up about the emotional rollercoaster of early sobriety, the challenges of dealing with regret and shame, and the ongoing effort needed for genuine recovery. His reflections emphasise the significance of compassionate leadership and the duty we all have to foster supportive environments for those in need of help. Through honest conversations, Tony shares the emotional impact of moving on from an identity tied to addiction and the vital role of self-accountability in this process.
 
Some of the things we discussed : 

  • The sharp increase of Tony's drinking when he moved to working in high end restaurants where he felt the culture of expectation to drink started to take a real influence.
  • The challenging truth that many people in the hospitality industry, like Tony and Shell, have lost so many years to stress, burnout, and addiction. Now, in their early 40s, they find themselves having to process the grief of those lost years.
  • How Tony used his social media, and outing himself, to help with accountability when he wanted to change his life and stick with sobriety.
  • The often exploitative dynamic in our industry between young newcomers and management, and how this culture is nearing its expiration date, as we're now experiencing challenges with recruitment 

Talking to Tony is always such a treat.  He is an incredible role model to the industry, to his peers and the people who have the pleasure of having his support in the Ben's Friends meetings in Cleveland.  Follow him on socials, and know that his DM's are always open if you need support.

@tony_and_oscarjames

If you want to check out a Ben's Friends meeting head to their website for more details.

https://www.bensfriendshope.com/

For more information on We Recover Loudly and to reach out for speaking engagements or support email hello@werecoverloudly.com

@werecoverloudly
www.werecoverloudly.com

This episode is brought to you by our proud sponsors:

Low No Drinker Magazine @lownodrinkermagazine

www.lownodrinkermagazine.com

Speaker 1:

Hello and welcome to this week's episode of we Recover Loudly. Today, I am joined by Tony Coast. Tony started his career, like a lot of us did, bussing tables, tony, for his mum, though, at a dive bar, which must have been fun having her bussing you around at home and at work. Oh, absolutely.

Speaker 1:

Over the years he has worked at some iconic spots like the Metropolitan Cafe and had a decade-long tenure with Iron Chef, michael Simon and his wife, liz.

Speaker 1:

And despite, however, all of these amazing places, he's worked all of these successes. In the background there was a growing struggle with alcohol, with drinking much like a lot of us can relate to, and even though you know he got to this really amazing role of general manager at one of their establishments, lolita, his struggle with alcoholism at that point threw him off his path, now in recovery. Not only is Tony the lead bartender at Immigrant Son Brewery, because Tony is so passionate about sharing his story and helping others who are struggling, he also does peer support and is a counsellor at the B Riley Home. He also runs a Ben's Friends in-person meeting, also there in Cleveland, and you know how much we love Mickey and the team at Ben's Friends here. So, Tony, great to see you today. Great to see you as well, cleveland, um. And you know how much we love Mickey and the team at Ben's Friends here. So, tony, great to see you today great to see you as well.

Speaker 2:

Thank you very much for having me.

Speaker 1:

Uh, having me on, I appreciate it and the last time we spoke um how many days sober were you? The last time we saw how, how far are you in now?

Speaker 2:

well, so september of this year, uh, september 5th of of this year, I'll celebrate eight years amazing so it's getting, uh, it's getting close to, I think for over 3 000 days by then wow yeah, it's wild, isn't it? I mean, like what an amazing thing. I couldn't even I couldn't stay sober for a day, let alone thousands of days.

Speaker 1:

So pretty amazing stuff did we already have a moment where I said what September the 5th, because that's also my sober date?

Speaker 2:

yeah, we did, we did already have that moment okay cool. I think we just had it again, which is totally fine, because what an amazing, what an amazing thing to share, oh goodness, absolutely sharing the day that everything in your life completely turned around.

Speaker 1:

I mean not immediately, let's be honest, but yeah, no the same. I recently clocked in 1,000 days, which just it's hard to compute that amount of time, and so then put that alongside the people that we were, because it feels so far away but yeah I know how close it is I agree so take me back um busing tables in the dive bar, you know, obviously. Yeah, you were like I. I want some of what these guys have got. This looks like a great career.

Speaker 2:

Yeah, I mean, you know, I think, being somebody that was born in the industry, it was, you know, overindulgence and drinking and drug use was not necessarily something I would say I was surrounded by, but it was definitely something that was normalized in my life because, you know, both of my parents, you know, suffered from addiction. My both, both of my parents, were pretty severe alcoholics. Um, and, just being around, you know, men and women in the industry, and being around wine and food and things like that and beer and shots, you know my, not only did I help my mom, um work at, uh, the gotchacha in a couple days a week and helped her clean. I also worked at a pretty high end restaurant that was an institution in Cleveland was called the water markets no longer they are closed many years ago, but my mother helped open that place. So I was, I walked around that place, I, you know, I I was very much when people say they were born in the industry. That is definitely something that was my, my life, um, and, you know, as I got older and, you know, started being in the environment, it, it, it did appeal to me. You know, something I thought was that was cool, you know, seeing the young, you know hip bartenders and servers and managers, you know, making all this money and hanging out at these cool bars, or at least places I perceived to be cool at the time and I think, just like, just like, so.

Speaker 2:

So so many of us, no matter where you are in the world, um, you know, especially in, like west civilizations, you, you, you, in your own head, you glamorize that Cause. Why wouldn't you want to be a bat? Why wouldn't you want to be a part of the, the fun, why would, or the perception of fun at least? Um, so, yeah, I mean I, I I dove head first into the culture. Um, you know, I, I will. Uh, I think we talked about this last time. I was a young, young bus boy. You know, sharing them between high school and you know my job at the watermark and my job working, uh, occasionally here at the dive bar with my mom. Uh, I was also a little raver, uh, here in cleveland, um, and you know I fell very much into that culture as well, oh God, I'm a huge drum and bass fan, huge drum and bass, um, and I always have been.

Speaker 2:

Um, yeah, no, I mean, you know I probably a far cry from the raves that you see, like in the UK and stuff, but there was a big rave culture here States for a little while and I felt very, very much in love with it. I've always been a fan of like music, and certainly even more so then, and you know, and that's, you know, a pretty severe addiction to drugs. You know, of course, you know X, Z and taking, you know, hallucinogens. But I also developed a pretty sizable addiction to crystal meth, which is not something I think we talked about last time. Oh, wow, sizable addiction to crystal meth, which is not something I think we talked about last time At a very young age.

Speaker 2:

You know, when kids in high school yeah, when kids in high school were talking about, oh, what did we do this weekend? You know we were drinking beers, drinking shit, smoking weed in somebody's basement because their parents went out of town. You know I was going to raves all over Ohio and Pennsylvania here and you know doing, you know, very hard, very scary roads, you know, or at least my perception was that they were scary. But as I grew into the adult that I am now and being some recovery, I realized they're no less scary than alcohol, you know, probably less. Probably they probably are less scary, but that's a whole nother, whole nother thought, a whole nother idea. But you know, I, I was able to kind of like shift out of that life. Um, I lost some friends at a very young age due to, due to pretty severe drug use, uh, and I kind of detached, um, for, you know, being able to tap into some sort of strength and moving out of these like pretty terrible places that I was. Um, but alcohol, you know, and especially the alcoholism in the food and beverage industry, because it's older, you know that I was, you know, starting to envision what life was going to look like after high school. Um, you know, and, and my life after high school was going to be food and beverage, it was going to be, it was going to be restaurants, because I was really good at it, I was really fucking good at it, I loved it, I had passion and drive for it. Um, you know, it wasn't something I fairly really thought about like, oh, this is what I'm going to do forever. But I didn't really care about what I was going to do forever because I was young and I was getting drunk and I was part of the life and I was meeting people and you know, and I was getting other jobs, you know. That's when I ended up.

Speaker 2:

Uh, I moved to new york city for a little while, um, and when I moved back, the watermark that I mentioned earlier was on its way out. You had just kind of lost its luster and it had been open over for over 20 years at the time. And it's just, there were other parts in cleveland that were starting to get developed and were becoming entertainment hot spots. And that's when I got a job at the Metropolitan Cafe, like you mentioned. You know, and I thrive, you know, I was, I think I was 19 when I got that job. I didn't think I was going to get there. It's so funny. This is the funny little thing to mention now because it'll kind of segue to the whole Ben's Friends thing. One of the members of the Cleveland chapter of Ben's Friends was my manager at the Metropolitan Cafe.

Speaker 1:

Oh, I love that.

Speaker 2:

Isn't that wild.

Speaker 2:

I love that, yeah, he has been a friend of mine, so he was my manager at one of the most like pivotal points in my life, giving me that job. And he told me a story the other day. He said do you realize, when you had that interview I was, I was interviewing you to be a busser and you sat down and then when I told you, well, we're going to bring you on, uh, you know, we need a good, a good solid busser. And you looked at me and you said no, I had this interview for a serving position and I'm going to serve. And I said I remember that he goes, goes. Oh no, you didn't just say you look dead in my eyes. That is a 19 year old kid. You look dead in my eyes. And you said no, I'm going to serve. And he said I got up from that meeting and went and talked to the general manager.

Speaker 2:

He looked at me and said OK, so how's our new bus? He goes, we didn't just hire a bus or we hired a server. And I guess the guy the guy's name was Brooks, I guess he looked at Paul and said but that's not, we don't need a server. And he goes we well, we have one and I didn't realize that, I didn't know, I don't remember that, but he told it like it happened yesterday had, um, when it came to like establishing myself in the industry here, um, and wanting to follow the path of like growth in the industry and that job also, how I met michael and liz.

Speaker 2:

Uh, you know, I very fortunate to have, you know, jobs kind of not just kind of fall in my lap because I've earned the positions that I've gained here in the industry, but because I was so immersed in the culture the way I was, at such a young age, despite my, you know, very slow at first but very quickly growing addiction to drinking, I was able to always find myself in pretty decent jobs. You know, my drinking, my drinking was all always out of control, even at a very young age, um, in this industry. But it didn't start to get to the point where I was developing that illness until I started working, you know, in tremont and working in the like, you know, higher, higher, uh, higher end restaurants and like the hipper neighborhoods, you know, and that's when, and that's when the culture, I think, started to play a big role, because it was almost like an expectation, you know it was it was, it was. You know, looking back at it, it's. It's why it's a big part of the reason why people get dragged into this kind of unspoken but also spoken about, expectation.

Speaker 2:

That okay, well, part of this culture. So now we're going to drink all the time the shifts over and we're going to go to the cool bar that we all hang out at, and you're the new person, so you're going to come along too and we're going to welcome you. Welcome you into the fold.

Speaker 1:

It's like a hazy.

Speaker 2:

Yeah, I didn't know, really is and and and and. I don't even think people realize how, how damaging it ends up being, because when you're in your 20s and you don't really care and it doesn't really matter and you can fall on your ass and pick yourself back up time and time again, it's not as detrimental to your well-being in your life. But when you start to get beyond that, I mean you shouldn't be doing it at all. But the ramifications as you get older are so much worse. And then there's always these younger generations that get filtered into this expectation and into this machine, into this cycle, and then you have people in their 30s, mid 30s, early 40s that are going what the hell did I do with my life? You know like myself, you know I got sober when I was 33. You know, and I had nothing. I had nothing. I had no money in the bank, I had no self awareness. I didn't even know myself. You know I did.

Speaker 2:

If you would have asked me at 33 years old, before I got sober, what were some of the things that I liked the most, I probably would have just told you I like drinking and I liked restaurants. I didn't have any. I didn't have any hobbies. I didn't have a relationship with myself. I didn't have a relationship with my family. You know I was. I was a shell of who I am now and actually in support group the other day or in the Ben's Friends meeting we were talking about I can't remember what the exact topic was but I said if I were to pass myself on the street or if somebody that knew me in my addiction would pass me on the street now, they probably wouldn't even recognize me. Amazing.

Speaker 1:

You know cause.

Speaker 2:

I don't, I don't recognize me, I don't. I mean I do because it's my life and I've lived the path. But the man that I was at 33, 32, 31, in my addiction, in my deep, deep sorrows of alcoholism, I don't even know who that tony was. I had no relationship with him. You know, and it's just, it's such a, it's such a sad reality that we as professionals in this industry, we as people just in general, stand by and don't protect people from this, like this very scary monster that is alcoholism.

Speaker 2:

You know, alcohol is everywhere yeah and we and we kind of just let people kind of just traipse into this like dangerous relationship with it.

Speaker 1:

Not that it's our responsibility, but I don't know it's it's such a strange thing I mean, I think it's like, yeah, I mean it's, it's our responsibility. But I don't know, it's such a strange thing. I mean, I think it's like, yeah, I mean, it's very easy for, as an industry, for us to say, well, you have to have personal responsibility. But you know, I really resonate when you were just talking about crystal meth earlier. And you're right, like you know, you say crystal meth, my face went. Oh, you know, I suddenly went. Oh, oh, my gosh, I didn't know. You know that's like a pretty standard reaction to it. Um, and yet, you're completely right.

Speaker 1:

The if in a very I was going to say in a strange way but actually it's not even strange crystal meth, if you went to your boss and said I'm addicted to crystal meth, they probably support you in a different, whereas if you go and you say, oh, I think I'm addicted to alcohol, it's's a bit like what do you mean? The stuff that we do every Tuesday? What do you mean? Like the stuff that we sell? What do you mean that's damaging your life to the point that you want to kill yourself? You have no money, no family, like you say, no hobbies, that makes no sense. We sell this, and yet you know the ramifications of of addiction to alcohol are. There's no like if we want to get really basic there's no difference, you know, between where you end up in that same place. Sadly, I think for people who are addicted to alcohol, we take a slightly longer time to get there and there's probably a little bit more pain and destruction in the way, because you know that the life cycle of an addict in that respect. So I do think that it's it was really powerful to mention that, um, and, like you say, that's why it is really difficult. I mean as as a person, you know now you're, you're in recovery, you've got a few years, you know. Imagine that you were managing um, you were in a restaurant. Well, you, you do. You are, you know, a leader when, where you work, you know. And leader when, where you work, you know, and somebody comes to you and your team and says I'm struggling with alcoholism. You know how do you navigate that, considering the culture? You work at a brewery.

Speaker 2:

You know how do you navigate that um, you know well it's, you know, as somebody who puts themselves out there constantly, right especially now, to, you know, be a beacon of hope to people that are struggling with addiction, and certainly people that are struggling with an addiction to alcohol in the context of our industry. You know, I try to, I try to always author the people space, I try to always make sure people know that I am someone safe to talk to. You know, alcoholism is so insidious, it's so sneaky and, like we've said, said already, people are, so they, they have this addiction, they have this illness and they don't even realize it. You know. And, and once again, people are free to live their lives. I'm never one to judge, but I always want to make sure that people know that I'm a safe person to come to. What do I do If someone approaches me?

Speaker 2:

I listen to them. Um, I try not to. I try not to like revert to, because I don't work a program of AA and I don't work 12 steps. Um, I try not to over speak. Um, I mean, I love to speak and I speak very clearly and I speak very confident. Confidently, especially when it comes to speaking about things involving addiction or mental health, because I have the lived experience and I do speak about it a lot, but I think that there's like a danger of being like too hand and too rhetorical when you speak about things and people don't. People want you to relate to them and they want to know that you're genuinely listening to them they don't want to hear.

Speaker 2:

Well, you know, make sure you admit you're hopeless and helpless and you know your higher power and this, that and the other, and that stuff works in the context of a program. But if somebody is approaching you the most, the thing they want to know I think certainly for me at least is that they want to know that you're actually listening to them. They want to know that you're actually listening to them. They want to know that you're actually giving them a space to be vulnerable. You're giving them a space to cry.

Speaker 2:

I mean, coming to that realization is horrifying, and if somebody is taking the steps to reach out to you, I had a friend, if you'll call him that reach out to me, about a month or so ago, a man that I've known about 20 years in this industry, a man that has subsequently, throughout the course of his career, damaged his career and reputation personally and professionally due to his alcoholism. For as long as I've known him, he and I actually weren't even speaking. He and I had had worked together briefly and he drank himself right out of the job and he reached out to me and said Tony, I am really sick and I need to finally make the steps I need to finally make the steps to get myself back on track. And I took him to detox. I picked him up from his apartment, I drove him to the same exact hospital that I checked myself into.

Speaker 2:

And I sat with him in that hospital pretty much in the same exact position that I sat almost eight years ago.

Speaker 1:

Oh my God, what was that like? Oh man.

Speaker 2:

I'll tell you, it was a lot. It was a lot of different things. I felt powerful, I felt afraid, I felt strong, I felt confused. It was, it was a lot. It was a lot to see somebody else going through something that I had gone through myself. Cause I also knew, though, as much and as much hope and as much strength as there was, there was also this sense of like. There was a sense of like, dread almost because I knew the path that he had to take. I knew the path that he was beginning to walk and how hard it was going to be for him and for anybody, cause getting sober, reclaiming your life from from alcohol, especially in a world that's pretty much obsessed with it, is so hard. It's, it's, it's, it's painstakingly hard, not only just the physical addiction, not only just your own addiction, but then you have to deal with everyone else's addiction around you.

Speaker 2:

You have to deal with everybody else expecting you to drink and, like you said, you have to deal with people asking you why you aren't doing something Like nobody would say to you. Hey you. Why you aren't doing something Like nobody would say to you, hey, you know. We were at so-and-so's wedding the other day. I noticed you didn't smoke any crack, are?

Speaker 1:

you okay.

Speaker 2:

You know, think about that, think about how ludicrous that sounds. 100% you know. Hey, we all had a really good time at the work party. I noticed you weren't shooting up any dope. Like, are you trying to? Hey, we all had a really good time at the work party. I noticed you weren't shooting up any dope.

Speaker 1:

Are you trying to, like, cut back and even more like be like, oh God, don't invite Tony out again, because he doesn't do cocaine with everybody and he actually really drags us down. Why does he keep asking for a soda, like literally just have a line of cocaine with everybody? What's his problem?

Speaker 2:

he thinks he's so much better than us, right, he's not doing coke like yeah, yeah, no, it is.

Speaker 2:

You can only laugh because it is so ridiculous, but it is so true, right, and it was um, you know I was proud to be the man I am today, to help my friends take that step, but you know that was a long way of answering your question. But I try to just live. I try to live the truth of who I am and I try to live my life as, as the person that I knew or I know I would have needed or I needed. You know what I mean. I wish I would have had me. I wish I would have had me, not necessarily to go hey, man, you have a problem, but I wish I would have had me to reach out to when I was going through my worst days, because maybe I would have.

Speaker 1:

Oh yeah, preach to that, tony. Honestly, that's exactly why I'm doing what I'm doing and why we so aligned on that. I mean, I was just in London. I'm walking past some of the places I used to work, some places where, you know, there were very toxic environments, a lot of drinking, you know, and I go to London quite a lot, um, and it's taken me a long time actually to be able to walk past those some of those places and I get a lot, and it's taken me a long time actually to be able to walk past those some of those places and I get a lot of grief.

Speaker 1:

I get a lot of grief and anger over kind of what happened. Still, I get a lot of grief and anger over decisions I made and all of that. And I was just wondering whether, you know, have you moved through? Did you experience that kind of grief process almost about that lost time? And if it's something that you've moved through, did you experience that kind of grief process almost about that lost time? And if it's something that you've moved through now, because you know it's like you just said, we lose, we, you know we lose decades of our life to this illness, condition, mental health, whatever you want to call it.

Speaker 2:

Sure, um, yeah, um, yeah, I, you know I. Yes, there was a point in time. Yeah, you know I, yes, there was a point in time, especially my early sobriety, um, where, yeah, I grieved a lot. I grieved the person I used to be because I I missed it, even though I knew how damaging it was. I missed that thing Cause that's all I knew. You know, like I missed being the life of the party. I missed getting fucked up every single night with my friends and going to after hours, even though I knew how damaging it was.

Speaker 2:

You know, and that's once again, that's why, that's why addiction is such a scary thing, you know, the addiction is the only in. Alcoholism in particular is the only disease people celebrate. Nobody cheers on someone having cancer or someone having some sort of other disease or illness, but alcoholism gets celebrated by people, you know. So I missed that initially. I missed being that person, yeah, and you know, I try not to, especially in my life now, live in a place of regret because I know that, as much as there are certainly things I wish I would have done differently, I can't change that. There's nothing I can do to take back the things that I did wrong, the people I hurt, the opportunities I squandered, the jobs I lost, the relationships I tore apart. I can't fix that stuff and if I dwell on it and I let it fester or let it consume me, it's only going to derail me from this big, bright, beautiful future that I have ahead of me and that's continued to unfold in front of me due to my sobriety.

Speaker 2:

You know, I think it's a very, very easy, very common thing for people to really beat themselves up and you see that any of you, any of us that live a life of recovery, whether it be a week or a month or 10 years you see people that really really hold on to their past and it really really hinders their ability to move forward because they're still holding themselves accountable in an unhealthy way for things that they can't take back.

Speaker 2:

The best thing you can do, I think and something I had to really come to terms with, to more focus back on the question is I had to learn to take these things that I was upset about, ashamed about, felt guilty about. I had to take them, hold myself accountable and learn from them so that I didn't grieve anymore, so that I didn't, you know, have this like sense of regret like hanging over me, because it would have and I think it really would have like diminished the light of my recovery. It would have pulled energy and focus from the things I'm trying to accomplish with my life. Now, if I let those things that I can't change like tear me down, you know.

Speaker 1:

No, absolutely, and, like you say, I think it's, I think it's a part of the whole process. Whatever kind of addiction that you're coming from, that we don't necessarily have enough support and talk about and the tools to do exactly what you've just described. You know, because it is, it's not as simple as putting down the drink, the drug and then, like you know, getting a thousand days, getting two months, getting whatever it is, and you know well this is that your life is suddenly amazing. You know it is work and actually you know that was something I wanted to ask you know, when it comes to this process of you know those early days, those early months, those early got even years, considering being a person in early recovery and our industry, how it is, you know what was your experience of being in the workplace when you were in earlier recovery? How did you navigate that Um?

Speaker 2:

well, I and we talked about this last time Um, I was terrified of of that, of that that task of navigating, um, you know, like, because everything about what I did for a living and everything that people were telling me was I had to find a new line of work. You know, I had to. I had to do something else, I had to start a different career. Um, because there was no way in hell someone like me was going to be able to go back to an industry that's filled with with drugs and alcohol and stress, as we say in Ben's friend. Um, you know, and for a minute I thought that they were right um, you know, I was. I was really, really afraid that the second I stepped back into a restaurant I was going to start to drink again. You know, because that's what I did at restaurants.

Speaker 2:

And when I got out of detox, you know, I sat at home for three and a half months with one of the dogs, oscar, who I had just gotten that year. And you know, I took a couple interviews, I took a couple job opportunities or phone calls or whatever that were presented to me through friends and people that knew that I was trying to get my life on a different path and nothing felt right. You know I'd never. I didn't know anything else and I didn't really want to. And I was out to lunch with my father, who has been a huge, huge beacon of support. You know my dad, Frank is, is my best friend and you know his, his words, to this day, resonate with me and, you know, hold me down and in moments where I struggle. We were out to lunch and you know I was like Dad, what am I going to do? What am I? How am I going to go back to work? You know, how can I go back to this, this industry? And he said well, tone, if you're just going to, if you're going to not drink, just Tom. But you don't, you don't have a choice.

Speaker 2:

Like I said, he goes. You are saying to the world, you're saying to your partner, your friends, your family, the world around you and, most importantly, yourself, that you're not going to drink anymore. So just don't drink anymore. What a shame it would be for you to throw away all this knowledge, all this expertise and all the relationships you've made in this industry. He goes there's alcohol everywhere. Son, it's not going to matter if you're going to drink again. You're going to drink again. No matter what you do for a living, Don't leave an industry that you love. And he was right. But what a terrifying thing to have to try to do. And I know remember, yeah, no, right, like what a terrifying thing to go. Okay, well, shit, if right, I mean he was right, but but how do I do that? Right?

Speaker 1:

Um, well, cause we're not only losing, losing. I say losing because at the time when you come into early recovery it does feel like a loss. It feels like you're losing a friend, but for us it's like we're losing the alcohol. We're losing the friend, but for us it's like we're losing the alcohol, we're losing the friend, but we're also being told that we have to lose our career. For most of us it's the only thing we've ever done, because most hospitality people you know we are lifers. If we've been there for more than a year, we're a lifer.

Speaker 1:

If we haven't got out of the first, you know when you found the first time like we're lifers yeah, I have not.

Speaker 2:

Yeah, I've done. I, outside of maybe a couple other jobs here and there, I've never done anything else as a career want to.

Speaker 2:

Now, because of my sobriety, I've been able to, you know, get a job in recovery, but that was only. That was through my sobriety. So you know, the first, those first couple days, those first couple weeks, man, I was white knuckling it. It was rough, it was hard, it was, it was okay. Where is it gonna happen? Where's that that? Where's the, the scary monster, gonna appear? And where am I gonna pick up this bottle of booze and just pour myself a drink like, but it never came why do you think?

Speaker 1:

that is oh, were you doing anything different or was did?

Speaker 2:

was there anyone supporting you at the time, or well, I mean I, I reached out to my community. You know I utilized a lot of the, the people that still were in my corner. I utilized. You know I utilized that continued to push me forward. I was really open and honest and transparent in a place that a lot of people aren't. You know like I mean I, social media sucks in a lot of ways, but I made a big post on my social media and hold myself accountable to my entire social media sphere and said hey, I'm going to detox, I am stopping drinking, and that helps because a lot of people rallied to my side.

Speaker 2:

You know I wanted better. You know I wanted better for myself and I truly meant it. I didn't want to be a drunk. I didn't want to be an embarrassment to myself. You know people, even in my deep, deep pits of a drink and drink of drinking, still still saying my praises. In a lot of ways, you know, people look to me as this kind, warm person, even though I was this very diminished, very, very lost drunk person, and I wanted to. I didn't want to be that anymore. I wanted to be everything that people told me I was and I wanted to be everything that I knew I was so. I mean, I took it, as they say, one day at a time and I continued to allow myself to prove to myself I could stay sober. You know, one day turned into one week, turned into one month, turned into one year.

Speaker 1:

You know and and I start.

Speaker 2:

I mean yeah, do you ask what did I start? Was I doing anything differently? Yeah, you know I was. I was being honest. You know I mean yeah, do you ask what did I start? Was I doing anything differently? Yeah, you know I was. I was being honest, you know, I was being truthful for the probably first time in my life with myself. You know I was. I was working on starting to hold myself accountable.

Speaker 1:

Yeah, you weren't hiding anything.

Speaker 2:

No, and I still don't to this day. I mean, I I certainly there are things that I do still to this day that I'm not I'm not proud of. But that's to be human right. Like we all make mistakes, we all act contrary to how we want to, sometimes because that's just human nature. But I'm a I know that at the end of the day, I'm a good person and I'm proud to be able to wake up every morning and look in the mirror and go, hey, you're a pretty, you're a damn good guy.

Speaker 1:

But you know part of the being very accountable and the way that you share about your recovery without shame, and you know you're very much about not talking about that stigma and stuff like that and I think that terrifies a lot of people. I know why you do it. It's the same reason as why I do it. Um, but was that a conscious decision to not only recover out loud but actually be quite so um, like, um, what's the word? Like you're being, very you're advocating, you know you're being really, really actively positive about the whole thing? Was that, did you think? When you get put down the drink, was that an intention or a happy side?

Speaker 2:

yeah, you know, I don't think initially it was like intentional, I think it just felt necessary to do because I feel like if I hadn't, if I, if I tried to lie to myself, I would have lied about something else you you know and if I didn't live my life differently than I had, I would have reverted back to my old behaviors. And I was so afraid to do that that I just went at it really, really, really passionately. But yeah, certainly now, because I don't think, I don't think, being an alcoholic, you don't have anything to be ashamed of, and I think that, like you said, the stigma, the stigma attached to alcoholism, is such a bizarre thing because people will champion you and praise you as an alcoholic, to your faith and to your social groups and to the world around you, until you make yourself a pariah, until you do something that's unforgivable or you embarrass yourself just enough, and then everyone retreats from you and then everybody treats you like something's wrong with you and what a fucked up.

Speaker 2:

Disgusting thing, Because one day you're the life of the party and everybody wants to hang out with you, and then the next day, like you said earlier, people are snickering behind your back and going Tony has a problem.

Speaker 1:

But especially in our industry. I think personally that like it's and I've done it myself before with team members years ago, years ago, you know, before I understood about all of this. You know where it's almost like I said, when I lost job, I felt like I'd failed the industry, I'd failed to be successful at being a heavy drinker, being a recreational drug user, like there is this kind of and obviously I've gone over that since but there is this huge feeling of failure when you're being let go by somebody who you know drinks, you know around people like you feel like you've lost your mind.

Speaker 2:

Right Like how are you holding me accountable when?

Speaker 1:

you're doing this exact thing.

Speaker 2:

I'm doing. How am I now all of a sudden? Why because I overslept for a shift? Why because I was, you know, whatever reason. Now, sure, those are our own silly mistakes and we are the ones that chose to do those things. And if someone's going to hold us accountable, even if it's somebody doing far worse, it doesn't matter, because they're in a position to hold us accountable.

Speaker 1:

Yeah, and we've broken what you know. We've broken our agreement with the business and the business has to make a business decision A hundred percent. You know you and I are not, are not debating that that isn't the right way to go, but it really is. It's the culture of our industry. It pulls on you these extra layer of confusion, shame and, like I said, it was a failure. Opposed to wow, maybe I should get some help, it was more like wow, maybe I should learn how to drink better.

Speaker 2:

Yeah, right, yeah, maybe I should get some help, right Like, maybe maybe I should start start to actually look at what I'm doing with my life. You know, maybe, maybe and what a wild concept. Maybe my drinking is a bit of a problem.

Speaker 2:

You know, maybe I shouldn't be doing this at all, you know, but we protect our alcoholism you know, we as an industry- yeah, right, we like, because people, even now so like I, as we just talked about, I live my recovery as the name of the show. I recover loudly, right, and I'm proud of that. I love the fact that I hold my head high and I have no shame in saying yes, I am in recovery, I'm a recovering alcoholic.

Speaker 2:

I'm an alcoholic, I'm an addict whatever you want to call it, whatever brush you want to paint me with, right. I'm really, really, really proud of that. But there are people that I know, people that I interact with, that are still very much in their addiction, whether they're in the industry or not. That, I know, may smile in my face, but they're put off by my recovery and they will never maybe not never. I hope not never. But there are people that are struggling that know that they are doing things that are hurting them, but they are not in a place to be able to even acknowledge that and they are even at a point where they'll defend it. Because here's a, for instance and I and I don't mind saying this, I'll say it on record because why not when when Cleveland got a chapter of Ben's friends, we and Cleveland got a chapter of Ben's Friends, we we not meaning Mickey and like the Ben's Friends PR people, they did a big initiative or a big push with lots of Cleveland, the Cleveland Restaurant Association and Cleveland Magazine and like that's how you and I actually got got connected Right, and I had a lot of people in that in that month and a half, two months that reached out.

Speaker 2:

Wow, I'm so proud of you. We're so proud of you. What an amazing thing. Wow, tony. You guys are doing great work. What a beautiful thing. Do you know that? Not a single one outside of the business I work at, not a single one of the restaurants, barsubs, anything, whatever you want to put in the service industry shared the article about Ben's Friends.

Speaker 1:

It's not association, isn't it?

Speaker 2:

Now listen, I don't care and I'm not mad at anyone about it, because they're businesses. They don't need to do that, they don't need to platform me. I didn't expect them to do it. But if, but, if the if the industry starts to acknowledge openly that there is a problem with the industry, where does that leave the industry? And I think that's why you don't see as much change as you would think there would be. Because to openly say, this organization is helping people in our industry that are struggling with addiction, then you're bringing it to light, you're associating an industry that we love with something that is scary and dangerous and stigmatized, right? I mean, I thought that was interesting, I thought that was odd, you know that is odd.

Speaker 1:

And yet now you said it's sadly not surprising. And I think the challenge is is it's the same with everything? It's because it suits a narrative that makes sense. And this is the biggest thing that we're having to change is I always ask people, you know, we don't, as again it's a phrase from the um, from the, from the rooms, we don't when drugs and alcohol.

Speaker 1:

Drugs and alcohol were never the problem, they were the solution to the problem. What problems? And by admitting, as an industry, that we have an addiction problem by those restaurants sharing you'll know your post. Actually, what they're admitting is that there is a system problem, there is a systematic something wrong with your teams that are full of stress, full of burnout, who are maybe neurodivergent, not being supported in the correct ways. Because you have no knowledge, you have got a cultural problem, because that is what causes addiction. Tony doesn't walk to work and then suddenly bring his addiction with him. You know, like there is and that's a whole nother podcast. If we want to go down the whole like barn and addict, which I don't really believe, I think you know.

Speaker 1:

But whatever you want to talk, but the reality of our workforce is and I say this all the time is that we attract a vulnerable group of people. We attract people who have not necessarily had a complete education background, who have come from broken homes because and they're just desperate to get a job who maybe don't have, um, very, you know, come from poorer backgrounds, again out of the house very early, earning money. We have a lot of males without male role models, you know a lot of single parent families. So we attract this vulnerable workforce and we love it because they're the perfect people. They're exactly who we want Tenacious, ambitious, feisty, fiery.

Speaker 1:

Exactly who we want tenacious, ambitious, feisty, fiery and we take everything from them and give them nothing back other than layers of stress and alcohol and have a beer sunny, you know. Oh, tony, tough, but you smashed it for us right. 15 years later, when tony is an addict, an alcoholic, going oh hey, guys, I'm trying to suddenly it's all silence. Well, do you know what? He always had a problem and that for me, I just can't let that go because as an industry, we need to start saying we're attracting a vulnerable workforce and this is how we're going to protect that workforce.

Speaker 2:

Right. Imagine if we we as an industry we actually not only gave people the opportunity to provide for themselves, gave them an opportunity and an industry to learn and grow, and people that care because we're also, a lot of times, a group of more progressively minded people, right, and the narrative is that we're we're looking out and inclusion and let's get people involved in mental health and and, like you said, people that are neurodivergent and people of the LGBT community and all these things.

Speaker 2:

Right, we're helping marginalized peoples and and we peoples and this industry is bright and beautiful and accepting, right. Well, why aren't we then utilizing all of these things to help people beyond just helping them provide for themselves financially? Why aren't people saying, hey, we're also going to work towards making sure you have proper mental health services. We're also going to make sure you have health care. We're also going to prioritize making sure you have proper mental health services. We're also going to make sure you have healthcare. We're also going to prioritize making sure you're not working this X like we don't. You can't call me and tell me that you are going to come in for a shift on my day off.

Speaker 2:

I'm sorry find someone else to serve. I'm not an open heart surgeon.

Speaker 1:

I'm not oh, 100%. Close the restaurant for an afternoon, right, if you?

Speaker 2:

haven't got people to work. Yeah, you're a manager, you do it, you've served. Why is the expectation that I? I have zero schooling but the expectation is that I work as much as a doctor? Yeah, like, I'm not saying that it is as much, but there's a correlation there. I'm shouldn't be on call all the time and I shouldn't get shit when I say, hey, you know what, I'm enjoying my day off.

Speaker 1:

I'm not going to be made to feel guilty, and that's because we've just defined, like you know, the classic exploitative relationship. You know, it is a completely where one side is benefiting from the other sides without sounding um to um, making it sound too simple but the other sides's lack of education, lack of, you know, we come as these young people who haven't had the same measure of life skills and support, and it is an exploitative relationship because it is. It's this shiny, beautiful, this look at the pavement of gold, but all you need to do is give me your soul, type thing. And and actually, even as I was thinking, even as you were talking, I was just thinking like, do you know what? Because you said earlier about, like, how your passion and drive, you know, like, really allowed you and that tenacity and actually a little bit of arrogance not being funny, which I love being a busser to a server that's celebrated. We love that, we absolutely love that, and that's one of my favorite parts of the industry is that we look at a character like that and we go. You'll go far. Love that, yeah.

Speaker 1:

But actually what we should be doing with these young people is maybe putting in a bit of life skills that they may have missed out on. You know, let's do some financial awareness training. Let's do some. How to, you know, build strong relationships with people that aren't based on alcohol? You know, build strong relationships with people that aren't based on alcohol. Let's teach these people, you know, these kids, these younger people from these vulnerable um environments, things that and sadly, and our schools don't teach them anymore either. But you know, I imagine going to work and knowing, like one month, one day a month, that there's going to be a session on, like financial security that you can drop in on and just learn about because, again, you know, we live in our pockets, we live on tips and then we can't pay rent and little things like that.

Speaker 2:

How to have emotional maturity, emotional sobriety, as we tell, you know that's let me, like you said about the thing that we need right, like you said about people that don't come from, like a lot of times, the most affluent backgrounds, but then you, all of a sudden, are making hundreds and hundreds of dollars a night. Right, you're a rock star, oh, yeah. So what if you had the tools? What if someone said to you, hey, you do whatever you want with your money, but, hey, let's sit down, we're going to have someone come in and talk to you. Like you said about financial planning, I mean, I know that these are such big picture things, but they're really not. And as an industry that like, really, really openly says how passionate and how we're such a beautiful thing, well, okay, why can't we be beautiful in other ways? Right, wow, why can't it be more than just food and drink, you know? And then like, just like, once again, like the, the, the cultural like. Why is the reward for a busy shift, a shift drink? Why is the reward? Alcohol? You?

Speaker 1:

know?

Speaker 1:

yeah, exactly it, it's you know, because it's again, because it's quick, it's simple, it's easy, it requires no thought. And I recently, um, I recently had it did a talk and, um, the one of the guys mentioned talked about the lifestyle. You know, we've talked about the lifestyle of the bartender and all you have to say is like, oh, you know a bartender, and my brain brings up this image of a lifestyle and what. But we have the power to change that. You know why. Why isn't it now that that we say the word, oh, I'm a bartender in our brain, let's let it pick up? Oh, yeah, bartenders, they work a reasonable shift, they know how to use their money. You know they're passionate and creative and it's channeled in a way that's, you know, like. We don't have to continue to repeat these old pattern, these old archetypes of what it looks like. We have the power to change what the lifestyle looks like and that doesn't cost us any money as an industry.

Speaker 2:

It literally doesn't no, but that takes a lot of people having very, very hard, difficult conversations with themselves, you know, and to backtrack a little bit. The industry itself, once again, which it's not their obligation may have not shared, but hundreds of people individually shared those articles, shared those links, shared my stories, talked about it, shared it on their social medias. So it was acknowledged as individuals but not as an industry and, once again, it's not anybody's obligation. It's just such a strange thing Like.

Speaker 1:

I don't harbor any resentment about it, but it definitely is something that I was like wow, what a thing to protect you know sadly now does seem to have an end by date on it or a best before day, because nobody is wanting to work in it. And it breaks my heart because, yeah, I had some really shit years. But if you said to me hey, shell, do you know what? Go back, do you want to do a different career? No, oh, the best friends, the best experiences, you know, I was at a event yesterday where I got to do some judging and I got to taste food that, nope, like I would never afford these dishes. I was just like sat there in London, like in the park in London, you know, eating truffles and lobster, going like, oh, yeah, yeah, this is my. You know, like you get these experiences. You can go all over the world. You know, it's right, it's. It's such an incredible industry and I think that you're right to have noticed that nobody shared it, because I think it is, I think it's sad and at the same time, I think that there are some incredible organizations and businesses, workplaces you know I can only think of, like restaurant groups of the uk, and yet I wonder, I don't think that they would share it, you know, even right. So you know, like I, really I query whether or not they would.

Speaker 1:

But uh, I've got one question for you before we finish up. Um sure, that's um a friend of mine asked me recently when I was on his podcast. So you've got two choices right. You could either carry on like living your life as a hospitality drinker, and that is, you've got all these people in hospitality who still drink every day. They're not alcoholics. They still go to work. You know, you know the guy. They'll have three or four clients a night, on a weekend maybe, like you know, like it never gets that bad.

Speaker 2:

Sure.

Speaker 1:

Or sober. What would you prefer?

Speaker 2:

Oh, I was sober for sure. Yeah, no, there's no question. I, even if somebody told me, even if someone came up to me and said, hey, here's a pill, it'll guarantee that you'll be able to control your drinking, I still wouldn't do it Because I've drank enough. I don't need to go back to that. I did drinking to the best of my ability, to the point where I almost destroyed my life. I was so good at being an alcoholic. I was so good at being an addict. I was so good at being an addict. I was so good at being that restaurant guy that got blacked out, drunk every single night, that I never need to go back to it because I already know everything that comes along with it.

Speaker 2:

There's nothing new that's ever going to happen sitting at a barstool or opening a bottle of wine or having an amazing cocktail. That needs to happen for me to jeopardize or to give up my sobriety, because I wouldn't be here talking to you without my sobriety. I believe that you know, and that's once again, alcohol is inanimate. You know, and and I don't, I I advocate very heavily for sobriety, but I understand that sobriety for certain people isn't realistic and not everybody needs to be sober, for in order for our, our industry, to sustain, people need to continue to drink. I just wish people would the people that do choose to drink would be able to, more of them would be able to do it responsibly. I think you know it says that on on on labels all over the world, right In one language or another please drink responsibly, or whatever. That was actually something people did.

Speaker 1:

I wish that that was something we actually meant yeah because it was something that it's like putting your hand in in a snake pit and going like do it responsibly right.

Speaker 2:

Right, because it's going to. It's going to most likely, because you don't start out drinking with an addiction. You don't start out drinking with an illness. You develop that by unhealthy behavior and by pouring booze into your body so that it desires it, craves it. You're addicted to it, right.

Speaker 2:

I wish yeah, so no, I mean, yeah, there's no, it's not even a question I would. There is no world where I can imagine ever going back to drinking as much as there are times where, sure, yeah, sure, I'd love to have a fancy cocktail at a cool, you know, hip cocktail bar or drink a beautiful bottle of wine somewhere when I travel, you know, like that'd be cool.

Speaker 1:

No-transcript, oh put that on a t shirt. I love that. No, but that's, honestly, what a great way to end, because when you were just describing, like you know, how drinking completed it, done it because you're right. There is nothing. There is no part of that kind of lifestyle that you know, people like yourself and myself that we've not done. And one of the best parts about sobriety again to sound a bit cheesy is that I have no idea really what's going to happen tomorrow. Not in a terrifying way, but in a whereas. How mundane was our lives. It was literally work, drink, sleep, maybe, work, drink, sleep, maybe. Like it was the repeat have the same. Yeah, some of those conversations were amazing at four in the morning, but you know one bottle of tequila in, but do you know what?

Speaker 1:

we have the same fucking one the next day on the next day.

Speaker 2:

You know how many times can you listen?

Speaker 1:

no, they don't like. There's only so many times you can hear brian tell you about how he's one day gonna trek across the states. You know how many times can you listen? No, they don't like. There's only so many times you can hear brian tell you about how he's one day gonna trek across the states, you know.

Speaker 1:

And you're like, yeah, no way, brian, I'm coming with you like you've had that the we're gonna open up these restaurants and it's like none of that ever happens yeah, but I do also at the same time, I I have to remember and you know and and understand that anyone listening to us going do you know what the best part of my day is? Closing my eyes and knowing I haven't hurt anybody, knowing that my bank account is exactly as I left it. You know people listening to me like fuck off. I just want to.

Speaker 1:

I want oblivion, and it's important for people to remember that didn't happen overnight. It was horrible and itchy and disgusting, but do you know what? It also didn't take that long for it to happen. It didn't take that long for me to suddenly wake up in the morning and go oh, my god, I can look at my phone without fear. When the phone rings, I can answer it.

Speaker 1:

My family isn't looking at me with fear, anger, distress. People are breathing differently around me. You know it's like like I think that's, I think one of the most powerful things is not the change in you, but it's just suddenly watching people your friends and family live a better life. And I don't think you realize it at the time until you've got a bit of recovery that suddenly you realize your dad's face is softened and you know they're suddenly laughing more, and it's things like that, I think, that are just make it so worth pushing through, because you don't just do it for you and also, you have no idea who's watching you. And again, in our industry, I think that's what's so important, because there's people watching you on socials, there's people watching you in meetings, wherever you go, the same as me. That will, whether you know about it or not, will change the course of their life and that ripple will change their family, and you know that is pretty fucking special yeah, I agree put that on a t-shirt too yeah, we're making t-shirts now.

Speaker 1:

Yeah, it's a big t-shirt yeah, very wordy t-shirt yeah, that t-shirt will have a pto on it right oh, tony is always absolutely wonderful to connect and talk to you, and I'm sure we will do it again soon. Thank you so much for everything that you do and, um yeah likewise you too just keep on going, just keep on doing what you do, because you're smashing it.

Speaker 2:

You can count on that.

Speaker 1:

Well, thank you so much.