We Recover Loudly - Serving Essential Hospitality Conversations

S2 Episode 025 - Al Roberto - From Smashing Drum Sets to Smashing Painkillers and Alcohol

• Michelle Righini • Season 2 • Episode 25

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In this new episode, Shell is joined by chef Al Roberto who shares his remarkable journey from rock star on global stages and to smashing success in the kitchen back in his home town of Yorkshire, and beyond.  The episode takes a deep dive into Al's early influences, from the rituals of post-shift beers with his father to the adrenaline-fueled culture of the 90s dining scene. Al reflects on how societal norms and early experiences set the stage for his future battles with addiction and mental health.   They explore the significant generational shifts in the hospitality sector, contrasting the hard-partying ways of the past with the healthier lifestyles that younger chefs are starting to embrace.

Al shares his story of how creating pizza kits with his son during lockdown reignited his culinary passion, ultimately leading to the opening of his dream restaurant, Simmer Kitchen.  They discuss their shared struggles with addiction and the importance of taking breaks from drinking - That it does not always have to be forever, even a short time gives your mental and physical health so many benefits. 

In the episode, they also discuss -  

  • The complex nature of addiction, from gambling and substance abuse 
  • The unspoken epidemic of pain killer addiction
  • Struggle of maintaining good mental health in a demanding industry. 
  • Al's personal struggles, the impact of being a role model, and the importance of setting positive examples for the next generation. 

This episode really emphasies the necessity of moderation, mental health support, and a balanced life for longevity in the industry.  Check it out, and connect with Al on his instagram account-

@simmer_kitchen

For more information on We Recover Loudly and to reach out for speaking engagements or support email hello@werecoverloudly.com

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This episode is brought to you by our proud sponsors:

Low No Drinker Magazine @lownodrinkermagazine

www.lownodrinkermagazine.com

Speaker 1:

Hello and welcome to this week's episode of we Recover Loudly. Today I'm joined by Yorkshire-born chef Al Roberto. Now, like myself, al comes from a family of hospitality, with his parents running Italian restaurants back in the late 80s early 90s, and once he was old enough to see over the stove, he started helping in the kitchen, and that's really where his passion for food and cooking was ignited. However, it was not straight into the kitchen for this chef. At age 18, al decided to leave Yorkshire, move down to London to pursue his music career as a drummer, working on MTV and travelling the world. When he came back to the industry later on, once he'd had a family and was looking for a change, it was actually lockdown. That really almost kind of turned your fortunes, and we'll talk about this obviously in a little bit. He started to create. We created pizza kits with his young son, which were a roaring success, and after restrictions ended, he actually opened up a permanent residence, simmer Kitchen, and again we'll be chatting all about that.

Speaker 1:

But the reason that Al and I connected is not because of our shared love of pizza and our Italian heritage. We actually connected on social media, sharing our experience of drug, alcohol addiction or excessive use, shall we say, at times, and Al's currently enjoying some sobriety time again, which we were going to discuss now, and I really love the fact that Al's very open about the fact that you know, know, it's not a linear process. Sometimes he drinks, sometimes he doesn't, and I think it's a really important point that we talk about that you don't have to stop forever. It's really great to have those times of like little breaks, but I'm gonna be quiet now. Al, over to you. How are you getting on?

Speaker 2:

over to you. How are you getting on? Hey, nice to, really nice to finally speak to you. I'm good, no, I am, I'm, I'm, I'm, uh, I mean good as a highman, I'm not bad. I think that's the thing to say, isn't it? Yeah, I'm not bad. A lot of things going on, summer time's coming ahead, so, uh, yeah, no, I'm, yeah, I'm good. I'm good, like I say, lots of things going on kind of in between, I mean between moving up to Scotland, which is a bit of a crazy one for myself and the family.

Speaker 1:

That's amazing and I desperately want to talk about that in a second. But I just wanted to quickly say isn't it funny how, even when I work in that whole kind of like mental health space, even though we're much better at it someone says how are you? You automatically good, yeah, it's like it's all amazing, I'm fantastic.

Speaker 2:

It's like. It's like a little bit fake, isn't it sometimes?

Speaker 1:

oh, I'm absolutely buzzing I'm amazing and then, and then it's just like and that's really, there's a lot like your brain's going yeah, I mean, it's exhausting to always pretend you are and actually my family now realises that if because I told them, if I say I'm fine, they know that that actually means I'm not fine. Yeah, because you know. That's almost like the code word.

Speaker 2:

It's one of those where normally you wouldn't put a dampener on straight away, would you? So I'm constantly doing it. You know it's fairly touchy subjects, that we are going to be discussing a bit, some bobs, but I just thought straight away to go, you're fine. Oh yeah, I'm great, because I actually automatically, because I'm used to doing radio interviews and I'm used to doing such positivity food demos where it's all like I'm here, oh, everything's good.

Speaker 1:

I automatically my brain just went, I'm good, I'm great yeah, and, and I mean gosh, that whole character and that whole facade and stuff is something again that you and I share really strongly when it comes to our experiences of working in the industry. Yeah, so I mean you've got late 80s, early 90s. That was the time to have an Italian restaurant, wasn't it? I know?

Speaker 2:

Well, I was very young when that happened, so my dad came over from Sicily, probably the 60s or 70s Actually, I think it was the 60s but he opened his main restaurant in Leeds 988.

Speaker 2:

So I was two years old, so I started working a little bit, my dad in the kitchens and stuff probably about two years old, but the 90s really was. People even say now it's the golden era of cave-in gastronomy. You know, in England really that's a lot of the top restaurants kind of buzzing and stuff. But yeah, the 90s, yeah, it was. Yeah, I'm a 90s kid. What can I say? Definitely a 90s kid. I'm only 37, I don't know, but definitely a 90s kid. And I think it's funny, my kids because I've got kids they even say to me now, dad, I wish I grew up in the 90s, I wish, I wish, I wish I was in the 90s.

Speaker 1:

And I'm like, yeah, we're not going to tangent on the disgustingness that it is that I walked down the street the other day and saw somebody wearing a crop top and cargo pants, like all saints um a gen zia, I should have said, and I was just like I am appalled that this is we are not old enough for our childhood to be a trend no, no, you just it, just it, just it, just wouldn't it.

Speaker 2:

But I think back then. I often found, um, brooding is the word, that's the word when you think back a lot. I suppose people with depression and stuff tend to brood a lot about the past, don't they? We bring up things in the past and I don't think a day really goes by that I I don't think about the times that I've gone, you know times that maybe were happier in my side and stuff, but the night is for me, it's just like. I think that's when what's that progress come out? How strange things, even though that was more 80s. I mean that's why out now. Stranger Things, even though that was more 80s. I mean that's why a lot of our generations, we love it because it just reminds us of the cooler times of the 80s and 90s. But yes, that's what it was. I mean, my dad opened a restaurant and it was so I kind of came into that, probably at the age of maybe 13 or something.

Speaker 1:

No, a bit younger 7, 8, actually Helping us a bit classic hospitality get a minute straight in free.

Speaker 2:

So I started. He started getting me on a saturday, my dad, to um help us a bit of a way, you know, serve some drinks. I didn't get angry, you get angry if I didn't want to do it, if I didn't want to come in on a saturday. He would be kind of like why you don't want to and I just wanted to I don't know play with my power rangers or to, and I just wanted to I don't know play with my Power Rangers or whatever crazy things I wanted to do as a seven-year-old climbing trees. And he would just get angry because I wouldn't want to come in. I was like, why do you not want me to come in? And he's like because I don't make enough tips.

Speaker 1:

I don't make tips if you're not there.

Speaker 2:

If you're not serving the customers, I don't make tips oh my goodness.

Speaker 1:

So you kind of knew from a very, very young age that power of hospitality when it comes just well, money, I suppose, and and and uh, the food, obviously.

Speaker 2:

That's what kind of got me going. I suppose it's my mum as well, actually, the cook. It wasn't just my dad's side of being in a restaurant and everyone smoking and drinking. That hadn't come into my brain at that time. It was just the love of food, I think you know, and familiness and being connected.

Speaker 1:

I think that's what started it all. That's a massive thing, isn't it? For Italian food? I mean even now that traditional family focus big portions, big families, big voices, big glasses of wine. You know lots of children running everywhere and I think it's interesting. You were saying about brooding and nostalgia. You know, like that rose-tinted nostalgia we talk about Even when we talk about.

Speaker 1:

You know know things in the industry that actually weren't okay. But when you said like, oh, the 90s, you know the great times of gastronomy, yeah, you know it does bring up those rose-tinted nostalgias of you know food being quite, you know, avant-garde but fresh and exciting, and it did feel and it well, it was a time where a lot of the chefs we now look at were coming up. You know, you've got your, your Marcos and your Gordons and stuff like that, and, regardless of whether or not you agree with the style of how they get things done, that impact on the food industry in the UK it's, you know, it's absolutely incomparable.

Speaker 2:

It's strange because, I work with um because in my career so far, chef, I've worked with such different being you know 37. I work with such different generations. I've worked with the older guys. Well, I've grown up with the older guys and the mentality of walking. I remember walking into a kitchen and they're all smoking them, all the reds, and have a shot of brandy, uh in the morning, andagna in the morning, and stuff. I remember that vividly. I thought it was just normal.

Speaker 1:

Yeah, smoking in the kitchen. I can actually remember that it wasn't even that long ago.

Speaker 2:

It wasn't that long ago, I mean, I think it was 20 years ago actually, when I was like a teenager. They were still smoking in the kitchens and stuff 100%.

Speaker 1:

No, 100%, but I forgot what I was saying there, that's what happens, isn't it?

Speaker 2:

we go off on one classic you work with different generations and different age of chefs yeah, so because I've worked with kids who were younger than myself, like in their 20s, and I see how they act and how they behave to do with the food, what they're cooking with the food, so the passion of the food, and also outside the food, when it comes to drinks, uh, drugs and stuff like that, and then so the attitudes, that, and then also the old generation that I've worked with, like 20 years above me, which I've worked, I suppose, within the last five years, you know, 20 years above me how they act in the kitchens and it's quite interesting I'm in the middle and I, you know 20 years but how they act in the kitchens and it's quite interesting.

Speaker 2:

I'm in the middle and I go like, well, it's really weird. You're speaking to friends of mine over my age and it's like do you? Not find it weird. Sometimes you work with guys who are 20 years older than us, so they grew up in the 80s, 90s, and then you've got kids who were like in the 20s, early 20, in the middle where going like which side is you know who's kind of got it right and who's and what's yeah it all becomes one thing.

Speaker 2:

Anyway, you've always got that same problem of what we'll be discussing in a bit, where you know the drinks and the drunk. But I think, coming back to when I was younger, in the restaurants and stuff, like I say, starting nice and early, you know it was just the love of food and love of passion and and um and and kind of like. Like you, you say the family stuff it's in your blood, it's in my blood.

Speaker 2:

And so it wasn't until I was like 13, I think, when I started to associate certain things with finishing a shift. I think that's what the first you know, because I've had to think back many times about what started the cycle that I suppose we come to what we're having, like this conversation today. What started it? What was the little ding? Because there's always something in your childhood that triggers something. Bing, there's a little switch that kind of gets us going and stuff. So when I was 13, I think that was the time when I started working, I was a bit older so I was a bit more aware of um, of drinking and stuff and um, I was a drummer. I mean, I wasn't really bothered about chefing or in the restaurant, I just needed some money on a weekend, um, and my dad would pay me what 10 pound a night for like seven hours or something excellent excellent, I think, yeah, I think we were all on about the same I think it went up to 15 pounds once.

Speaker 2:

That was quite management, um, but at the when I was 13, at the end of every shift maybe half 11 at night, uh, I'd always finish with a beer. So that was like standard uh bottle bottle of Peroni or a Nassau Zuna, they called it, before it changed to Peroni and I'd have a cigarette. I'd have a Malbra, you know, and I was 13, you know, and that was normal, and I'd sit with my dad and we'd kind of like I suppose we've had that adrenaline rush, so that adrenaline is in, and I didn't know anything. I just thought I feel really good here and I sit with my dad and I'm like dad. So what do you think? We go over what we went through? And I was holding a beer and a cigarette, you know, and I was like what, what you know what?

Speaker 1:

how was tonight? And he'd be like, yeah, yeah, it's okay not really that bothered, to be quite honest.

Speaker 2:

But I was infused, I was really interested about the whole evening and that happened every weekend and that probably happened every weekend for a good two or three years. You know standard, you know having a beer, you know not thinking much of it and then, um, I suppose I would, uh, do a lot of gigs. It was the music side of it. You know which kind of opened up another door.

Speaker 1:

Yeah, do you think that you would have had those conversations with your dad, um, and that kind of, because I think debriefing after a shift is really important. I don't mean it in that formal way of all sitting around with the clipboard and saying, all right, john, what did you do wrong? What should you do?

Speaker 1:

better but I think that that moment of kind of coming back together, especially when a shift's been very intense, maybe things haven't always gone right is really powerful um do you think that that the action of the smoking and the drink was an integral part of that, or because I do genuinely think that it is challenging to bring people together after a shift without that. I was wondering what you thought of that.

Speaker 2:

It's funny that is a hard question, isn't it? So if there wasn't any alcohol, would we still say, I think yeah, with the food, because I think the food overall was the start of it. We're hungry. So it's like I don't think at that age you're thinking god, I mean, this is at that age. You're not saying now or anything. Especially at that age you're not thinking bloody hell, shit, I need a beer. You're thinking I'm hungry, I want some food, but maybe I need a beer. You're thinking I'm hungry, I want some food, but maybe I could have a beer. You know, I think you start with the food, don't you? As a child, I don't think you're five years old, you're like I just need a drink. You know that comes later on. So I think we would have sat around and had some nice food and stuff. But I think the fact that I was allowed a beer and that hit of alcohol, which is the dopamine, you know, which kind of starts the whole cycle going off, which is only now being 25 years, coming to my head with ADHD and work and all this, all these kind of things make so much sense. That's why I grasped that alcohol at the beginning of the age of 13. And it kind of just continued, continued, continued, continued. But yeah, and I think I think it's a funny one, because it's not just, it's not just one thing, is it? It's not just like that. Was it all right? So that's my all issues. My 20 years of addictions and drugs and all this stuff has just been being. Because of that. We also have other things to play during the other parts of it.

Speaker 2:

Like society was different back then, wasn't it? You know, our generation I say our, you know, but it's like they used to. We used to drink a lot more than kids now. It was a lot more easier to drink. You know, nightclubs were busier. Leeds City Centre was about 60 times busier, you know, a lot of times. Now I've got a younger brother and stuff and he actually I've got two brothers and three sisters and my younger brother's 24. And they just don't drink no more like we used to do. They all go to the gym. They're all about health, they're all about fitness, they're all about which is different types of addictions. Let's not be honest. People can always go too far with that. But society was different back in 25, you know, 20 over 20 years ago.

Speaker 2:

So I think the combination of of us, you know, finishing the meal with my dad having that food, and then every weekend, after about a year, I think it starts to stick to you that this feels good, this is good. Let's start, let's get back. Let's, you know, let's work harder, let's and let's drink more, you know. And then I think what started it off a bit more for me was definitely when I started gigging. You know, I think music, musicians and chefs are so alike. They really are.

Speaker 2:

You know, it's all about an entertainment. It's all about um, uh, finishing the show, putting, working hard, putting on a show and getting your action from, from the customers or the audience. There's absolutely no difference. When I finish a gig, you're buzzed up, you're full of energy, let's party because you need to relax yourself down. It's the same as doing it, doing a busy service. You get that adrenaline rush and you know you've done really well. And my son said it's my son who's 16, he works with me now and stuff, and he started to feel that, oh damn, I feel really good.

Speaker 1:

It's like, yeah, try not to have loads of beer, because you know it's going to make the cycle goes round um, but um yeah, so yeah, and it's amazing how early that connection becomes with you know for you at the age of 13, while at the age of 13 it might not have been a um, I need to have a beer after shift because I've had a big shift immediately at such a young age. And we find us in the industry. That becomes that association. You know x equals y and you know, like you said, with your son working, even though it is a different society now, you know, has hospitality changed? Because even now we still, you know, there is that association. So what do you have other young people that work with you?

Speaker 2:

I mean, do you find that they have an expectation for that after work beer?

Speaker 1:

Well, with the young people that work with me as such.

Speaker 2:

Yeah, it's a funny one because I mean for myself now I'm not a head chef of anything, so as soon as I am kind of on my own a lot more and the guys that do work for me are pretty much my age and they're pretty much teetotal as well. You know, I can name like five guys that do a lot of stuff and they're all like recovering or kind of whatever in our generation. I think it's just such a big thing that's going on. I think I need to refer back to more when I was actually working in the restaurants with younger kids, because I don't have my son helps me and it's a bit tricky to have any reference to what I'm doing right now with any younger ones. But I suppose it's still pretty full on to some degree. I think there's still that attitude towards getting absolutely having loads of beers at the end and coming in well hung over. I think it's still people, just the kids just still want to do it. You know, not as much it's the identity isn't it.

Speaker 2:

It's the image.

Speaker 1:

It's like it's the rock star image. Like you said, that's the alignment within the music industry and it's one of those that we're still, you know, trying to figure out what came first the character or the addiction? You know, do you bring your addiction into the workplace or is it a character that you live up to and then the addiction follows? You know, and I think it's the same with music, is it a character that you live up to and then the addiction follows?

Speaker 2:

you know, and I think it's the same with music, isn't it?

Speaker 1:

You know, if you were to start out in the music industry back when you did, being like I'll have a tea and then I'm going to go to bed, you know, that's not what we came to see. We're not paying for that. We want to see the show you know.

Speaker 2:

And I think when you role models are the most important things and they really do refine everything that you are, because when I was a teenager, you know, I wanted to be that rock star. Now I wasn't bothered about the chef thing. It was like I am tommy lee, I am bloody nicky six. That is what I wanted to be and it was imprinted in my head. Now, not knowing that I've had, you know, know, adhd and all these other elements, that doesn't actually help because you refine everything and you suck and absorb and obsess about everything. You know people who are neurodynamic and stuff. They still obsess about anything that is, you know, influencing them and stuff. So you know it's like now kids, you know it's. It's like like I'm saying that now kids are obsessed with going on to the gym. People, kids are obsessed with, um, it's just the obsession and it's how far people take that obsession. You know, and as soon as you get hooked on something like obsession having a drink, it's so addictive that you're just gonna, it's gonna destroy everything. That kind of builds up.

Speaker 2:

Now, when I said before like things are, like people still want to get drunk and smashed up and reckless and stuff, um, there is a bit of a change. I'm just trying to refer back to some places I've been working recently, um, freelancing for some friends and stuff, who have young guys in the kitchen. Um, you know, and I am, I am seeing a little bit of a difference of people who are healthier, you know, there's a couple of guys, which is good. I have spoke to some chefs and they're like oh, I don't drink on a weekend now, or you know, I go to the gym more than anything, a bit more. So I suppose it is slightly getting better.

Speaker 2:

I think, you know things are not what they used to be like, but I still hear stories of other places around where a lot of chefs are just sort of come off, coked off the tits, or they've got sats because of the record, or they just keep doing loads of drugs. So I think it's still a mixed thing. But, um, I think it's just, it's a, it's a tricky. It is a tricky one, isn't it really?

Speaker 1:

well, do you know what I think you, um, I mean, one of the things that I really um connected with what you said is about us being that generation that's pulled between the two, because, yeah, we are a similar age and that our age group are that are currently mostly the managers, the leaders, the head chefs. You know, that's where we've spent the last 15, 18, 20 years kind of climbing to, and you're right, there is that pull at the minute. You know, do we continue as our forefathers? Do we continue as that older generation? I mean, you say nicky sixth and tommy lee, you know that that was what.

Speaker 1:

Who marco pierre white was? You know he was the rock star, like swearing, sex, drugs, rock and roll working, so there were those and icons that we all looked up to. So do we stay with that? Or or you know what looks to us as being the change, the generation? Um, after you're talking about it's, it's difficult, I think, because we can see, if we use common sense, that it makes sense to follow in that footsteps, but the new generation's ideas, but it actually also feels very far away from what we currently do.

Speaker 2:

It's a big change, it's reality. I think a lot of it's. It's now teaching the younger generations, it's nurturing them. You know, I'm not saying that we're all done deal, but to some degree, degree, a lot of us in our generation have lived, but either some people are fine now, they've managed to recover themselves, or some people are like ourselves or whatever, are still struggling. We're going to be struggling for the rest of our lives. Really, it's not going to go away. We just need to be resistant and cope with it. Well, I think a lot of the, the young, especially the young kids, and stuff, you know, I think it's more about teaching them, um, that uh, things aren't real.

Speaker 2:

Being trying to be a rock star, trying to take drugs and be someone else, will only land you in the shit in later life. And then lessons I suppose I teach my son and stuff. You know, um, there's a lot of knife crime. It's going a bit, a little bit off topic here, but there's a lot of knife crime going around in leeds, hence why I'm going up to scotland and there's a lot of other problems that you know spit into society and all this and life and stuff and I think it's the fakeness and I learned I was so addicted to being a rock star, so addicted to I must be famous when I'm older, so addicted to I must be. I want to be a heroin addict, basically. You know that's what I wanted to be. I mean, who the hell wants to be a bloody heroin addict? But I did because the media and because that was telling me what I wanted to be.

Speaker 2:

So in the chefing world, it's the same thing I want to be. You know, marco Piyo. I mean I'm actually friends with Marco so I've got to be careful. But you know, it's like. You know I want to be. You know people like him. So I suppose that addiction is what gets people going. But I think it's how we move forward from. It is the tricky thing. How do we move forward? How do tricky thing? How do we move forward? How do we teach kids? You know, taking drugs until you will only just kick your ass when you're older. It's what I say all the time. It's like you're all right now. You know, I know I've heard chefs now we're getting off the tits and I said you're all right now, but I guarantee it, 20 years you will be fucked you won't be able to walk you won't be able to do this because you've been working stupid hours, you've got riddled with arthritis, you know you'll have lost your family, you'll have no money and you're just going to deteriorate.

Speaker 2:

But they don't listen. This is what I find really hard is trying to tell young kids or young students. They just go, yeah, they don't listen would you have listened? Probably not yeah that's the hard thing, isn't it?

Speaker 1:

you know, you know, you mentioned role models and you know, it's like it does seem that it's our task, as this we say in recovery rooms and it's a big part of this podcast and what we do the alcohol and the drugs were never the problem, they're the solution.

Speaker 1:

So just because they've changed, what they're using as a solution doesn't mean that the industry is doing enough to change. So you will find and I was on a panel this week and chatting to some disgustingly young people who work in our industry and and they go to the gym, and they go to the gym every night and if they don't go to the gym in the evening, they can't sleep and it's, you know, and and it's one of those it's like you know well, addiction, by any other name, it's, it's still a behavior that you are compulsively having to do to change your state and therefore, I don't necessarily for me anyway, I find the narrative and the dialogue that our generation, this new generation, coming through well, they don't drink, so they're fine is actually going to mean that as an industry, we're not giving enough attention to the reasons why people like you and I used to use drugs and alcohol and yes, put aside childhood trauma, put aside you life.

Speaker 1:

put aside I get that, that, you know. The industry is not the only reason why we drink and use, but in a weird way we're almost giving the industry like a get out clause. Well, well, they're not going to drink, so it's fine. Gambling is another massive one for the younger generations.

Speaker 2:

Yeah.

Speaker 1:

It's so easy now. It's on your phone all the time. And the gambling addictionsictions I think that we're going to start seeing coming through. Yeah well, it's like the social media, isn't?

Speaker 2:

it. It's the same thing that. That it's exactly like social media. That's the word. I actually hate social media. I've timed the amount of times I've taken myself or deleted the app off um instagram and stuff like. I use it because I get work and that's just the way it is, but I can't stand it. It's all.

Speaker 2:

It's your brain, it's like yeah, that's kind of what it is, but I suppose, trying to think of a way of changing, I suppose it is going in the right direction, you know, in terms of is it healthy, I mean, is it healthy to go to the gym, you know, every night? Or is it healthy to go to the gym, you know, every night? Or was it healthier to have a line of coke and do a load of drink, a load of booze, which is, you know which is better for you in the long run?

Speaker 1:

um, I think that neither are, and the reason is the qualification for that is because I think anything that we do to excess that it's not okay, and. I think what we, what we really lack in our industry and as a society, as you've just pointed out, and you know, and I and I am saying this with the, with the, the fact that I am neurodiverse, so I get that it's even more challenging for people like ourselves is that we seem to have to do things to this excess.

Speaker 1:

So it's like we won't. Just you know we won't. It's what. What really we're searching for is balance, and that's something that, but that's the problem we just really struggle with.

Speaker 2:

What I find is is is it's when you stop, that's when the trouble starts. So, like you say, you say excess, right, okay, so you know. So I going to the gym every day for two years. Lockdown was a big thing. As soon as you stop and you break that chain right, all the demons or all the problems that you've been hiding are now going to go boom and hit you right in the ass. So that's what happened to me. That's what happened to me.

Speaker 2:

I drank every day pretty much for 20 years, since I was 14. And it wasn't until my early 30s that I kind of chilled out a little bit before lockdown. You know, wasn't partying as much on weekends. Um, I've started to drink less that my mental health started to go skyrocket and that's what it was. So I feel like going to these guys oh, you go to the gym at the time you, you know, every time you finish work every day. But you better keep going to that gym every single day for the next 20 years, because as soon as you stop going to the gym, you're fucked.

Speaker 1:

It's just what it is, isn't it? Yeah, 100%, 100%.

Speaker 2:

As soon as you stop, you know, it's balance and that's what causes your mental health breakdown, that's what causes your anxiety. Shit, I haven't gone this week. Shit, I haven't gone this week. Shit, I haven't gone this week. And you're causing stress in your head constantly, constantly, constantly, because you're fixating on something. And that's what happened to myself, you know when. On something, um, and that's what happened to myself, you know, when I was early yes, was early 30s I stopped drinking and I think, lockdown, let's go for lockdown. You know, I drank a little bit halfway through the first part of lockdown. Then, I think, I stopped. For nine months I had a bit of a breakdown, um, and again, that was probably because I wasn't drinking. I went on some medication, um, I wasn't drinking much, and then when I did drink, I'd just go so dangerous, yeah, I mean we I mean, look hands up.

Speaker 1:

I think a lot of us do it, but it is no, in how, in hindsight, you look back and you go. Well, no wonder those antidepressants did absolutely fuck all yeah, yeah, and that's well.

Speaker 2:

That's what happened. I stopped taking from search relief and then I stopped, I stopped taking them and maybe I must have got pissed a few times and didn't take any or whatever. Then I can do loads of drinking drugs and then I'd end up just almost getting sectioned and that's kind of what happened. You know really like oh my god, um, and then it wasn't, and then and it's funny, isn't it?

Speaker 1:

you can think about that 13 year old boy having a beer after work with his father.

Speaker 2:

Yeah.

Speaker 1:

That beautiful innocence, and that's the thing that I always say as well about me. You know, my first sip of wine being a sommelier, all of that. We don't think that we're going to end up getting sectioned nearly on antidepressants and you know like it's such a. It's just a gamble.

Speaker 2:

It's always a gamble. I remember to this day. You know like it's. It's such a, it's just a gamble. It's always because I remember. I remember to this day. You know when someone says something to you and it sticks to you, I see a life in it. I remember being 17 and in a, in a gig, we're near the control booth and a guy and I was drinking a tetlis or something and the guy said to me you know what's gonna kill. You do you know? I know? Do you know what's gonna kill?

Speaker 1:

you. You're so northern, he said, you know what's gonna to kill you.

Speaker 2:

He said do you know what's going to kill you, he said. He said it won't be drugs. Oh, it won't be, you know, cocaine, it'll be the alcohol. That's what he said. And he said, and I went oh, whatever, I said whatever, whatever, and even now I remember him saying that and it's like god it's, you know, it's, it's so true.

Speaker 2:

But I mean, for so many years, you know, in my 20s, I had kids, young, okay, so I had my first till I was 21, you know, and I wasn't chefing at all then, um, I was drumming and stuff. I was still in this rock star head when I was in my early 20s. Every weekend, cocaine, drinks and drunk, you know, trying to raise a child in stuff like that and child must have been four went to Bahrain, again drinking. Everything was always associated drinks and drunk, drinks and drunk all the same thing. Every weekend, the same thing. And I went to Dubai, even worse, like they drink like mad out there, and that was like really like it wasn't just drinking, like um, uh, like getting a bit merry, it was you are pissed every day, guaranteed. It was just like serious drinking.

Speaker 2:

I struggled quite a lot when I got back from dubai when I was 27, I really found it so hard and I just thought I'm an alcoholic. I just thought I knew back then at that time that I am an alcoholic and I've got a serious problem with alcohol. Not thinking of all the other stuff, I thought it was just solely alcohol.

Speaker 1:

I am an addict to it.

Speaker 2:

And then I suppose I did probably the worst thing I probably could do at 27. And I was like I know what I'll do Chill out on drums a little bit, I'll get back in the kitchen, you know what I mean? I could have just gone to work in Tesco or something nice and relaxed. I've done some, you know, because I was a music teacher for a while as well around that time in schools and stuff like that. But I decided to get back in the kitchen and I thought to myself yeah, cool, so you do the one thing. That's like even worse. So I've still got that mentality of I'm going to be famous.

Speaker 1:

What did they say? Out of the flames into the fire.

Speaker 2:

Yeah, that was it.

Speaker 1:

It's a frying pan out of the frying pan into the fire something like that um, and then I'll start, yeah.

Speaker 2:

So then I started doing um, getting into the, the chefing and stuff, and again my head was this this I think it's the adhd that I've kind of got it's like since I was 20. I was fixated on this famous, this rock star, this. Just, I've got to be something bigger than contentment. I've got no contentment. I just have to prove myself. I have to be bigger. I don't want to be like a normal person, I have to be bigger. And that was even one of my 30s, you know, and that was that. It's addiction. Of that, I'm addicted to being this, someone, someone, someone bigger than me.

Speaker 1:

Well, that to being this, someone, someone, someone bigger uh than me. Well, that's something that gabble mate says is the root of addiction is and and disease. You know the word disease. If you separate it, it's dis-ease, it's not being able to be at ease with yourself it's that constant churning of lack of contentment, that constant churning and just that discomfort of being sat in self, which is, you know, the trigger for these diseases yeah addiction and stuff like that.

Speaker 1:

And I think, just because you put down the substance, you know we now have to learn how to cope with that, because that sadly doesn't necessarily just go away yeah, I mean, that's the thing.

Speaker 2:

So when I see other chefs or other people these days, or just people in general, it's like do you not want to be something better than what you are? You know? Do you not want to? Do you not want to be the high, anything higher, like I said? I think that's just imprinted in myself since I was. I think it was being a drummer in a rock style that I wanted to be. That, um, I think that's just what I did, to be honest I'm not saying I'm a roster, but I did fairly well, you know.

Speaker 1:

I mean I played with some wicked bands, faithless, and did some stuff um supporting prodigy and and you know, I just I have been oh, that must have been an experience with faithless and prology, and anyone listening to this podcast who doesn't know either of those bands.

Speaker 2:

Get off my podcast well, to be honest, I I almost screwed that time up as well, actually, because I was 20. How old was I now? 23, maybe 23. 2009, 23, I think, and I almost screwed that up. For drugs Absolutely so many drugs got absolutely off my tits. I almost had a fight with a bass player in bloody this dodgy czech or prague bloody hotel room because I was off my tits you know, I mean yeah, that was rock and roll, but it wasn't and it didn't feel like rock and roll.

Speaker 2:

I think that's what it was. It was like sometimes, when you want something so badly, people want to be famous. On this social media obsession with this. I want to be famous. Is that you really think it'd be good being famous like michael jackson? You think he had a good life running around how you know how shit like that happened. But when I actually went on tour, I was so homesick because, being italian, you know we're all together with connection. Yeah, I think that's the problem that we have such lost connections of stuff, you know. You know, I, I again just went when I came home. I just wanted to go home. I remember having, um, a layover in, uh, in london to fly out to austria or somewhere like that. I was on such a come down and so guilty of a massive come down, I was like, felt absolutely bloody horrible, um, anyway. So we're going to see if we could just talk for hours, couldn't we?

Speaker 1:

I don't know well do you know what it really reminded me, that about that whole kind of like getting what you want and like being careful what you wish for. Because, you know, growing up I also idolized, which I've shared before. I was very into music as in listening to it, not being in it, but I was obsessed, you know. Britpop was that that kind of era when I grew up and was desperate to live in Camden where all of the bands were playing and I wanted to be Courtney Love, like she was my idol and I wanted to be her in every aspect of her, including the, you know, her very well documented addiction, you know, and her, like that for me was part of the allure and, you know, fast forward, and while I'm grateful that I never ever tried anything like that the other elements, you know I did get what I wanted.

Speaker 1:

I lived in Camden, I worked at bars that were frequented by, you know, amy Winehouse and you all of Baby Shambles were there every week and Carl used to do a night and you know I was there in the heart of where I wanted to be and I was a huge. You know that's when I first started with drinking and drug taking in a way that I'd never had before and I got what I wanted Like you know you in that hotel in Prague.

Speaker 1:

We're there yeah and it's actually fucking horrible and it's, you know, it's just like you say. It's like sometimes you do, I think, have to be kind of careful what you wish for. But I also think that it's interesting that I don't know whether it is a neurodivergent thing, but I know that you and I are not the only ones that that do. Look at those people having these crazy lifestyles and I idolize. I can't, you know, and try to emulate them, like, yeah, I don't think we're alone in that I mean it's.

Speaker 2:

I mean it's like it's a, it's a drink of drugs. Actually we wouldn't have experienced at the end of the day, because if I wasn't like that, then I have to. I always say the amount of shit things that you've done in life, right, so anyone other people are listening and think of think of a night that you did something really bad, or an after and when you hung over. I wonder worst things you could have ever have done. Okay, we've all got them. Would you have done that sober? That's it, would you have done?

Speaker 2:

that absolutely not no, you wouldn't, would you? You wouldn't have done that sober, and it's the booze that starts it off and then escalates, escalates down the line. But I suppose it's acting, I suppose it's seeing like where we are now, so just going back to where I was in in my 30s. So obviously, lockdown came, um, went through cognitive behaviour therapy things and I was like right, what is that? I've got anxiety, you know, constant anxiety of nervousness and always thinking to myself I'm nowhere near as good as all these other chefs because I came in a bit late. Yes, I started in my dad's restaurant, but but then I started doing it for like 10 years because I was drumming and at the same time don't forget, I'm drinking and drugs every single, most of the weeks. You know it's leading all up, so it's getting worse. So when I hit my 30s or early 30s, you know it was like I got to go to anxiety.

Speaker 2:

I said I don't feel this anxiety all the time and I used to get it when I used to go out on a Friday night, to go on a night out. I used to get so excited but I wasn't nervous. I was like why am I nervous here? I'm excited for what's going on. Why am I nervous? So you know, I used to, so I had the yeah, so I used to get the anxiety things in the early 30s and stuff, and then cognitive behavior. And then 30s and stuff, and then cognitive behavior. And then I thought, um, and then there was something that tipped me over. It's actually good.

Speaker 2:

I was always against antidepressants. I was never a never a fan of them, didn't really believe them. I actually didn't believe in depression or anxiety. Actually, we always thought it's fake, it's in your head. It's like why are you depressed? Now I've actually got it in my family and I used to with my sister or my brothers like why would you just not be happy? I, I was like why would you just not be happy? I didn't understand that. Why would you just not be happy? What's wrong with not being happy? You know, you've got nothing to be sad about. And because I was drinking and obviously I was so boosted up on booze and stuff, I was happy because I was drinking and my dopamine levels were always bloody, really high. So I didn't really understand why other people were depressed. Why other people were depressed, you know, it was bollocks, to be honest, I thought. And then when I started slowing down on the booze, that's when the shit happens.

Speaker 2:

And I think we obviously were slowly discussing this earlier on, isn't it? That's when the thing started to happen. And you think, god, I have got a problem, I'm drinking a lot, I need to get some help and that's our first thing't it? It's really acknowledging shit. I need to chill out here. You know I'm drinking too much um, but it doesn't stop you. It takes a long time, you know. I mean it takes. It takes a long time to slow your drinking down and even now I have to fight. I've done five months now, so I'm a five months thing. Now you know well, I go to my brain. Will I drink again? Probably. I don't know how I'm gonna go for another 50 years I'm not drinking um, and what?

Speaker 1:

was the um what's, what's in those kind of those moments? What's made you, if you're happy to share um, go, do you know what? This is enough, I'm gonna. This is never mind one day. This is my day one, to be honest, it wasn't.

Speaker 2:

It's not the booze that actually has caused much trouble. It was in my, in my teens, because I didn't know, I didn't really do cocaine until I was 18. So I didn't know much about pills and cocaine and stuff until my 20s. So I originally thought it was booze. But what we tend to do as addicts is if we don't have one thing, we'll switch it. So if we're not addicted to booze at the time, or even, like now, I'm not drinking.

Speaker 2:

I bloody love sweets. Do you know what I mean? I'm like I'm eating shitty sweets. So my problem wasn't actually booze. My problem is opioid, um, um, codeines and fucking diamorphines and all this kind of shit. That for me me and I think that's a lot of people is the serious fecking addiction. That is another level. I've said to friends now like try you know, friends like that try being hungover or try not drinking for a week, try having a come down or withdrawal from shit loads of codeine. You're like a heroin addict shaking in the bed. And I've done that, you know, I'll be honest. I know, but um, um, opiate and what's I know, but I forgot the name of it now, yeah, anyway, but I've done that. You know that's the worst I broke my hand. What happened? I broke my hand 10 years ago a bit more than 10 years ago.

Speaker 2:

And I got some codeine and I felt bloody hell. They gave me this little tablet and it was like warm honey through my bloody veins. It was like ooh, hello, I don't need to drink now. You know what I mean. I wasn't that bothered about the drinking as much I would start mixing it. We used to have little codeine parties, me and my friends. We'd get a load of because my brother's got God bless him, he's got MS, you know. And I used to go around to his house. You know I'd get smashed on in the evening, drive the car at five in the morning without anyone waking up at home, pissed still. Go. Nick his coding, take, take, come back, take shit. Loads of coding with my mates and stuff.

Speaker 2:

And we did that for years and again at that time of um being 25, again, you still don't really know, do you that, what's going to happen in later life. You still don't really know that that's going to come and bite you in the ass. When you stop doing that. You'll have the. You won't just have a withdrawal for two days, you're gonna have a withdrawal for two years. You're gonna have a withdrawal for three years. You know that's that stuff is really gonna cause it cause an issue.

Speaker 2:

But that has been the problem for me, definitely more than booze, and especially for the last few years. And then when I went to dubai they gave me loads of opiate, um, coding stuff because of my, my race, when I was drumming and stuff. So I was in pain. You always start off in pain when it comes to opioids. Then it hooks you, like the oxycontin problem that they've got over in america and kind of here and stuff like that. It's such a, such a. It's more addictive than than anything that people could do.

Speaker 2:

And I know a lot of chefs, you know. I once, not even long ago, I was helping a friend out and some guy had, um, you know your apron and stuff, and I went, I didn't bring my apron, I left my apron. He goes, oh, just use that one over there. And I went into the apron and you know someone who had it yesterday, some agency guy, I think I opened up loads of packets of empty coding tablets, like it must have been about 10 of them. I thought shit, they're bad. Whoever was on loads of codeine yesterday and stuff like that? Um, I mean, like I said, you're addicted to alcohol, you're addicted, it's you know. The whole thing is you're addicted.

Speaker 2:

But I think what I wanted to say, my little part of it, was that the the addiction of opioids and ibuprofen plus and stuff like that, has had more impact on my addiction, and I don't know if anyone else is out there who's really struggling with opioids. That is the worst and hardest thing to get off, even now, thinking about it more than alcohol ever did. Alcohol you're addicted, fine, you can kind of stop it. Fine. I think opioid and codeine they need to bloody ban that stuff from boots. The amount of times I used to go to boots, and even not long ago.

Speaker 2:

This is a few weeks ago to be honest, oh yeah, it's there. Yeah, it's still there. You know you have a belting headache because your mind's wasting with work. The only thing that stops it is a codeine, is the dopamine. You know you're not getting enough dopamine, so you need to get those a codeine. And then you're taking so many tablets that you can't piss a shit. That's the line.

Speaker 1:

I think that I think that what you just shared about the pain pills and stuff like that is um so important and I really appreciate you talking about that. Um, adam Hardiman, the very first guest on this podcast, um also had an incredibly um challenging addiction to pain medication. Um, but so we know, you know you're not the first one to share about it. Chefs, you know, and Front of House and Bar, we put our bodies through things that athletes don't do.

Speaker 1:

We push ourselves to the edge and then we carry on. The amount of times I've been in a kitchen where the chef has burnt themselves and it's almost like it's fine, you know, and there's like blood dripping or like all of this and you know, watching chefs limping watching, I myself broke well, didn't break, um, had a very bad sprain on my ankle.

Speaker 1:

It was all swollen up like a balloon. Next day back at work, on crutches as a GM, you know, dragging my foot around and, weirdly enough, now still got that kind of funny little clicky thing. And therefore, as chefs and as people in our industry, we do take a lot of this pain medication, to take it with kind of thinking that there is this immunity to it, and I think it's really, really an important kind of thing to highlight that drugs aren't just the things that you buy on a street corner. Alcohol is not the only thing that we need to be aware of our consumption of, because when we're in an industry where injury happens frequently and where we are frequently expected to swallow said injury, you know, and pain away, um, I think that that is probably something that if we did an investigation, we would find there are a lot of people with the same story as you, so I'm grateful that you shared that, yeah, I mean somebody listening will go hang on a minute.

Speaker 2:

I'm sure there is. Well, definitely is. I know this, but it's kind of like. But then I've got some friends of mine who are one of my mates of mine. You know, I've even spoke to him. I'm like dude man, I can't stop taking these bloody ibuprofen pluses. To be honest, I only have to. I don't know why I have ibuprofen plus because I don't want to get over the counter, right, that's the only reason I used to have to go to different booths around, bloody everywhere. Make sure they've seen me twice. They've seen me this, they've seen that. Then you take a load, then you hide them in your house and you go right, I don't want them. And then you throw them out. Then the whole cycle just starts again you know, you throw them out again.

Speaker 2:

You do this you go right, I'm gonna do two days you know it's exhausting, it's tiring, go around, go around, around around.

Speaker 2:

But, um, like I said, you know there's some horrendous things that you know. There's a friend of mine that um passed away, unfortunately last year. Um worked with me very closely, um, and he uh he's sadly committed suicide. You know that's just what happened and you know we used to help each other on search lean. You know, have you taken your tablet? Because he used to go bloody ding if he did take his tablets, um, and we used to help each other all the time and stuff, and I spoke to him the day before he died. Actually we were going to meet up and cook um, but there was things that he used to tell me about, like apps that you can get where it's like, um, uh, pharmacists, like on the black market you can literally use to say something elicit of you know, pharmacy, right, you want what do you want? Morphine, codey, dihydrocodey, oxycodone, oh my bloody god. Xanax, which is like heaven, isn't it? And it's just like, oh my god, you know all this kind of stuff that you can literally, just literally just get available.

Speaker 1:

I mean, when I had my job when I was, how old was I at uni? So I guess when I was 19, third year of uni, I worked at a very well-known delicatessen and butchers in Leamington and that was when I first had or saw chefs doing drugs and they were taking something called stack and it's a bodybuilding drug which I'm pretty sure that you can't get anymore, but it's basically caffeine, aspirin and ephragin mixed together into a pill called stack which you they at the time would just buy.

Speaker 1:

Do not go and now search for it al um. But they would buy um, but they would just get it on ebay and um, and it was for bodybuilders.

Speaker 1:

It was effectively like buying, I guess, like a performance enhancing drug, um, but, like you know, legally, and it was that mix of those, you know, really, really strong stimulants that they needed to get through shifts. And you know, all those years ago, I can remember thinking, okay, you know, like we said about the whole, you know, at 13 years old, you immediately start making associations, finish shift, have a beer you know, see a chef, they need drugs to do their job. I was literally.

Speaker 1:

You know, I was 19 and already that's where my brain is, so again, you know, well, I think, again, it's like when we just kind of like to pull back to the point you made earlier about role models and just the importance that everywhere you go, people are watching, but in particular when you are in an industry that attracts a lot of young people.

Speaker 1:

One of the best parts of our industry is how we can bring in young people and give off them a career that you know is a really, really incredible one. There's always somebody watching you and I think that that's something, as you know, like you again, like you shared as well. You know, when we look at ourselves being between the generations, you know we can see that we don't want it to be the way that it used to be. We're not quite connected with what the world is like now, because I'm not going to be vaping and going to the gym no, no way. But we have to be those role models to show that there is, you know, like that there is a different way, but more importantly, that people are watching, except the fact that we're role models because people are watching us yeah, that's maybe more than they used to even that's what it is, isn't it?

Speaker 2:

it's just. But it's like coming back to uh, I was thinking about one of my friends who he had, um, yeah, are the uh? Yes, because I used to say, to look at opioids, you know, I've taken them. I couldn't stop taking them. I was like, why can't I stop taking these? And then it was the dopamine that got me because, you know, I know a lot of people who can take these tablets and it never interferes with them.

Speaker 2:

I mean, you know, I know obviously how many people we know that drink, who don't get addicted. Why do we get addicted? And I think that's the question why am I different to everybody else? Why can you, why can you guys have a drink on a night? Or why can you have a painkiller and that's it? Why do I have to have a painkiller and need to eat the whole entire lot or drink the entire lot? And that's what's got me thinking of the last couple of years, especially the last year actually, and it comes down to obviously anti-pressant, depression, anxiety.

Speaker 2:

But adhd, and that's a big thing that in my family's come up quite a lot because my son, I've got, uh, three boys, 16, 12 and 7, and the middle son was diagnosed with adhd, autism and Tourette's, um, I can't remember now four years ago, five years ago or something like that, and we knew straight away that I was, you know, running around all that kind of stuff, but very intelligent and you know all the signs for a child with ADHD and stuff. And my dad, who's now 75, he is just like riddled, you know, with like autism and stuff like that. He's obviously never been diagnosed and never will, but he just does the most craziest things, like you know, lining stuff up. But he used to get very angry and um, I think this comes to a lot of my upbringing with restaurants and stuff. My dad used to shout a lot. You know, I don't want to speak nasty, my dad, but he did. He used to shout a hell of a lot, you know, in the restaurant, you know, if I didn't, you know if I didn't do something wrong, if I didn't do something right, he'd go right into me. I'd be serving maybe six beautiful girls in a hen do and I'll be there and he'd come straight up to me, tell them to shut up and have a go at me in front of everyone and really like belittle me and stuff.

Speaker 2:

So there was these things that I knew that he had mental health at the time and you know it kind of made sense. You know he was struggling. It was you know. You know all these kind of things and especially 30 years ago, that never happened. You know mental health was nothing and he, you know you pick up these things about.

Speaker 2:

Why do I, why do we be so addicted to these things? What's the reason? It can't just be because of I want to be a rock star. It has to be something more um, it has to be something underlining. And since my son got diagnosed, you know, and I've gone through all this depression and did it, did it down my feck man. I need to. Maybe something is not right in my head. I'm trying everything here. Something's not right.

Speaker 2:

A friend of mine, um put me, told me to go private to see about adhd, getting um, um, getting screens and stuff. Now about three times now I've gone through the NHS to get screened for ADHD, fill out the massive forms, five-year waiting list. It's so much stupid like that, it's unbelievable. So my friend of mine was like, oh, I need to go private. It's the only way you're going to do it. So that's kind of where I'm at. I went private now with that. It cost me like £600, but get it screened next month and he's, you know, once you tick all the forms and stuff, they're like yeah, we need to get you screened in.

Speaker 2:

But it makes sense, doesn't it? It makes sense, you know, there's people who can just be addicted to stuff and then they can phase out. But unfortunately there's people like ourselves, you know, who have ADHD and stuff like that and a lot of others, that we just suck it up. The dopamine is no, we do not get enough dopamine, hence why opioids are the worst. So when I go god, they are so addicted, they are more addicted than alcohol, because you are literally getting a hit of pure happiness and dopamine that you just do not generate. And, um, going to the gym, people go, I've got the gym. Go for a walk. It's like fucking right, that gives you like a percentage of that hamilton scale thing, doesn't it? You know it's like that's a point, you know, I mean, it's like it's not enough.

Speaker 2:

It's like it just doesn't work. Do it slowly, slowly, slowly. That's the worst. When people say to me, if you're doing it quite a bit and you go to the gym every day and over time you'll feel better.

Speaker 1:

It's like they don't want it.

Speaker 2:

Over time, the reason why we addicts is we want something, and people with adhd, we want it right now, don't we? We can't wait.

Speaker 1:

We can't wait for win right here, right now, right now we need it right now.

Speaker 2:

Okay, give me that pill right, absolutely.

Speaker 1:

That's what it is, and that's why, and that's why we work in the industry what we do as well you know, because it does give, and that's why we work in the industry what we do as well you know, because it does give us that we need that hit of us right now.

Speaker 2:

So I think it is good that people are speaking about mental health and stuff like that. You know, I think it's fantastic. Actually, it becomes much more easier to say to people, you know, and the amount of people that are struggling now chefs that I work with who are going through recoveries and supply is getting it's getting good and I think if it keeps, you know, doing what we're doing in the podcasts absolutely I think over time things will help, but it's not.

Speaker 2:

They're not going to stop doing alcohol. They're not going to stop selling alcohol. They're not going to stop selling opioids. Okay, you know they should legalize it. I mean, that's another thing. Anybody's, nobody else, they shouldn't control shit. But they're not going to stop selling opioids, cocaine. You know they should legalise it. I mean, that's another thing. Anyway, they should control shit. But they're not going to stop. And social media is probably the one that has the biggest part to play in it. I think that influencing like I was saying about wanting to be a rock star or a model or that kind of crap the worst I think that kind of shit is is really is is the kids of today. Um, whether it be chefing or whatever.

Speaker 1:

You know, that's just blindsiding them yeah, I think they need to absolutely but we can only talk about.

Speaker 2:

Fortunately we're not. I wish we were in the power to kind of do it, but we could only do what, what, what we can can't really exactly, and I think that's the message really for everybody.

Speaker 1:

We can all only do what we can and you know, whether that's while we're at work in industry, whether that's while we're chefing, whether that's when we're socializing with our teams, you know, whatever it is, whether it is the types of things that we choose to put on social media, knowing that we are a leader, knowing that people are going to see what we say, um, you know it's. I think, again, it's about having that slight, a bit more consciousness and a bit more, um, acceptance of the fact that you know people are now watching you in ways that maybe we didn't in the past, and it is really important. And, yeah, you know, like, congratulations on on kind of getting to that point with, um, your diagnosis. It is a big I hate to use the word journey because it sounds so wanky, but it is, it's a journey.

Speaker 1:

And you know it's, you know like there's.

Speaker 2:

It makes things make a bit more sense, I think in my mind 100%, because it was seeing my son it was going. I used to do that, oh my. God, my son does things, does things like I did that all the time when I was a teen, when I was a teen or when I was a kid. You know, it just makes all this kind of kind of kind of yeah, it just makes sense it does.

Speaker 1:

It makes a lot of sense and, you know, like we could talk for another hour about, you know, adhd in the industry, because it's, you know, it's something that I'm really passionate about us having a lot more awareness about um, because there are so many of us um, but we'll have to save that for episode two. Um, before we finish, is there anything um that we haven't talked about? I mean, we've not even talked about your move to scotland. What are you going to do up there? What's the plan? Is there a plan?

Speaker 2:

yeah, well, no, the year's just going really well. I've got family in scotland. They used to go there quite a lot. They own like lovely seafood restaurants and stuff up in St Andrews. That's where I'm going to be.

Speaker 1:

Oh, amazing.

Speaker 2:

Yeah, 40 minutes from Edinburgh and stuff, but we wanted a change. Obviously, I live in like I'm from North Leeds, which is a nice part. I live in East Leeds for so expensive. So we're like you know what? Why move two miles out into somewhere that's well expensive and my kids can still hang around with.

Speaker 2:

The same bell ends around you know, let's just go, let's go, let's go all the way up. So the plan was to bring Simmer Kitchen, which is obviously private dining and events and all this up to Scotland and it's. Yeah, there's some really cool things in the pipeline some good meetings, I'm having country estates and some cool live fish kind of bars on the beach and stuff.

Speaker 1:

So hopefully, yeah, you are talking my absolute dream language. I love that. That's going to be so cool and, like you say, you know, being able to give your kids that different experience like why? And people say, why, why not?

Speaker 2:

exactly why not. People think we're kind of crazy doing it, but it's like well my plan is just to live up in scotland and then I'm going abroad. I'll probably live in italy or family in tenerife in the next 10 years. Definitely I need some warm weather.

Speaker 1:

I've got a bad back we need it. Oh well, look Al. Thank you so much for coming on the podcast today.

Speaker 1:

I really appreciate how honestly you shared about everything and I know I've said already, but I genuinely think that some of the things that you've spoken about are things that including on this podcast, that we need to talk about a little bit more, and I'm gonna really make sure that that does become something that we also put the focus on, because it's the silence around those epidemics that is the thing that really kills, and exactly like we talk about alcohol, we talk about cocaine. Let's start also talking about other things, you know, gambling, opioids, the whole thing, because it's not I think it's the thing.

Speaker 2:

The one thing. I think it's the things that are more accessible. That's the problem. Gambling is accessible. Opioids you've got to count boots and bloody get them. They're the problems, absolutely, you know, that's the kind of thing, cool.

Speaker 1:

Oh, bless you. Well, look, thank you so much. I'll obviously pop your socials in the um notes. So if you guys want to connect with al, please check that out um and thank you so much for sharing your story and michelle, take it easy.

Speaker 2:

All the best love to you all. Thank you see you later.