We Recover Loudly – Unfiltered Stories, Unapologetic Recovery

S3 Episode 01 Reed Amber Recovering Loudly … Habitual Drug Use, Hard Truths, and Healing

• Shell Righini • Season 3 • Episode 1

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In this unflinchingly honest episode of the new season of We Recover Loudly, Shell is joined by the phenomenal Reed Amber Thomas-Litman—sex worker, content creator, podcast host (Come Curious), and fierce mental health advocate. Together, they explore the messy, meaningful, and often misunderstood paths to healing.

Reed opens up about navigating habitual drug use, her journey through addiction and recovery, and the power of embracing vulnerability in public. From sex work stigma and neurodivergence to sober intimacy and coping without substances, this conversation dives deep into the intersections of identity, empowerment, and self-discovery. Expect laughter, truth bombs, and a lot of heart.

Whether you're on your own recovery path, questioning your habits, or just craving real talk from real people—this episode is a must-listen.

Connect with Reed - 
@reedamberx
@comecurious


For more information on We Recover Loudly and to reach out for speaking engagements or support email hello@werecoverloudly.com

@werecoverloudly
www.werecoverloudly.com


Reed Amber Thomas Litman - Recovering Loudly ... Habitual Drug Use, Hard Truths, and Healing

Shell: Hello and welcome to this new episode of We Recover Loudly.

Shell: Today I am joined by the incredible Reed Amber. Now Reed is a driving force in breaking down stigma and creating open, honest conversations around sex pleasure and empowerment. She is one half of the award-winning podcast Come Curious, which she co-hosts with Florence Bark. Her wonderful friend who she was just recording with before this.

Shell: Yes. , and on that podcast they tackle things like shame, taboos around intimacy, relationships, self-love, and Reid herself, she's incredibly open and authentic in her personal storytelling and fearless discussions and uses her voice and platform to continue to challenge all these outdated narratives we have around sex, body image, just gosh, so much which we're gonna go into, , creating this more open and informed space.

Shell: And it was the reason actually that I started following you many years ago. But before we get into all of that, Reed, welcome to the show. How are you today? Hello. 

Reed: Hi. Thank you for having me on. This has been in our calendars for a long time and I'm so glad we've managed to finally get here together to talk about recovering and sobriety.

Shell: I know. I'm so excited. And actually, I think the reason that it's taken so long is actually quite interesting.  so I have followed you since the beginning of lockdown, I imagine back, back when it was like COVID and we started to like to be on our phone’s way more. That's crazy. And I just was like, and I was always really attracted to your content because it was the exact opposite of me.

Shell: I am so prudish and so shy, which isn't a good thing, by the way. And I found everything that you say, you and, and, and, and your partner in crime just mm-hmm. So incredibly, it was like a small child peeking into a sweet shop at like a wonderful world outside there that I'm too scared to go into. Oh, that's beautiful.

Shell: Do you know what I mean? Do you ever get people saying that to you?

Reed: No, the, the way you've said it is so like eloquent, and I could really picture it, but thank you for being honest. Cause that even just saying that can be quite hard to just get out, you know, there's a lot of, can be a lot of shame in there with shyness and, you know, you shouldn't feel any shame.

Reed: You know what? You, you are just living your best life the way that you've been taught, the way that you know how the tools that you've been given. So yeah. That's amazing that your kind of, at least didn't get rejected by the content was like, ugh, who is this person doing some crazy shit like. 

Shell: No, I think it's, and I do.

Shell: And I think it's really fascinating that, that there aren’t more spaces like the one that you have created. Mm. Thank. And I'm sure, again, we can get into the reason behind that. And the other thing that really attracted me about your content again, was just how open you were about mental health challenges.

Shell: And I can vividly remember there was a post that you put on, it could have been a post, it could have been a story. And you bless your little heart, and you were sobbing. And it just broke my heart because you were just so upset about, and I can't even remember what it was about, but you were just sharing, you know, like, today's a bad day and I have bad days sometimes.

Shell: This was before Neurodivergent diagnosis. This was a what, A long time ago. Yes. And again, it felt at the time, which is crazy 'cause I guess the world really has changed in the last four years. Yeah. But a really fresh thing to do. So, I mean, have you always been this open? 

Reed: I guess Well, no, no is the simple answer.

Reed: it took me a long time to learn how to be this open. I definitely got the building blocks from my mom, from my family, recognizing that the more open I was with a lot of who I was, made things easier and like people were, you know, they were rejected of it. But it’s kind of like filtered out who I wanted to hang out with or who really understood who, yeah, who I wanted to be around.

Reed: But definitely when it came to emotions and mental health, I bottled so much up inside, and didn't realize that I could talk about it or I should talk about it. And that ate a lot of me up for most of my teenage years and early twenties. And it wasn't until my mid-twenties, did I start. While seeing a therapist and actually opening up about what was going on in my brain.

Reed: And I did recognize that if I did put something that was really vulnerable up, as hard as that was, the amount of positivity that I got back from posting something like that made it seem like my discomfort was worth helping other people feel more comfortable. Yeah, and it also helped me as well, I'm not gonna lie, like it was, it was almost like me admitting to my emotions and my feelings and to my thoughts.

Reed: and I have used social media as an incredible tool to, to help better myself, to put myself out there. And it fucking works. It works for me. It doesn't work for everybody, but it definitely worked for me. 

Shell: Yeah. Uh, it's really interesting. There's been a couple of, we've had a couple of conversations on this season about social media and how it's used.

Shell: And for me, I have curated my feed to be a place that is full of positivity and people Yes. Like yourself, like the things and the stories and the, the, the conversations I wanna listen to. And when anything comes up that I don't like, I get rid of it. And, sometimes when I'm in a little scroll hole, I do throw my phone across the room.

Shell: But yeah. Effectively, you know, for me it's an empowerment. Now others still do find it really, really, destructive. But I love that you're saying, you know, there is that positive thing, there are positive things to be said for it. 

Reed: Yeah. Social media has been an incredibly positive place for a lot of people.

Reed: But again, it's still so, it's, it's a drug. It's addictive, especially if you lose yourself in it, you're losing hours, and you don't feel good afterwards. You can't sleep. You feel restless. You're obsessing, or escapism. Lots of us use it for escapism, but I know that without the use of social media and without the use of the internet, I wouldn't be able to learn all the incredible things that I do and see like-minded people out there that might not just be at arms with, you know.

Reed: Mm-hmm. Like me, my friends can only give me so much. But when I'm seeing people's stories and how they feel online, I do have that sense of connection. Especially when it's something like ADHD / Neurodivergence being on the spectrum, having addictions, like I, I, I really rely on looking at people's, I.

Reed: Addiction posts, especially when I'm struggling. Uh, and I suppose it’s; it's knowing the difference of how does that feel in your body when you are on social media? Does it feel like a good thing? Does it feel like a bad thing? and you know, I say bad in quotation marks. There's nothing inherently bad.

Reed: But what does it give you? What does it take from you? is social media something that you are just constantly on? You can't seem to stop. Is it disrupting your family life, your partner, your relationship? You know, are you missing the world? Are you obsessing and thinking about and dreaming about social media or work or whatever it is?

Reed: Like maybe it is worth taking a break if you can't leave your phone in the other room, you need to take a break. And I still can't do that. I definitely can't. 

Shell: Yeah, 

Reed: sometimes I can, but it's, it's really tough. It can be a good space, but you just, like you said, you've gotta curate it, curate it to be happy.

Reed: I remember I was watching, I'd be looking at accounts, I'd be looking at people, model celebrities and just feeling miserable about my own life because their life seemed so much better, or they seemed like, you know, more attractive, richer, uh, more successful, whatever it is. And that was destroying me. And so, I did stop following those people and obsessing about them and curated a much nicer space for me to be on there.

Reed: And now I'm getting all this incredible information I would never have received without it, you know? Yeah. It's, it, it can be a, a source of good. 

Shell: Yeah. And until you make the mistake of like liking a post about pickles and now all I get is stories about pickle pickles. Everything is pickles. Yeah., which isn't the worst thing 'cause I do love pickles, but it'll be like really hard-hitting mental health posts and then like pickles, which I guess is basically my life.

Shell: I mean, you mentioned modelling, you start, you, I mean, you were a model many moons ago. You obviously still do stuff like that, but I mean more of a traditional, should we say, model. How old were you when you were doing that? 

Reed: So, again, that was like mid-twenties really., I started in the sex industry. I started in the adult industry.

Reed: I was, I did a lot of porn production., and during that time I became a sex worker. So, I was doing webcamming content and creating content online and loving it and being more, I. I guess open about my sexuality. And then during that time when I was working for a company, I don't know if you ever went to the adult channels on the tv and it was always like, babe Station and I worked for Studio 66, Oh, right.

Shell: And I was just about to be like, oh yeah, no, I don't know it. 

Reed: Oh, no station. But I don't remember my station. Yeah. So, it was a, it was similar to Vape Station. I'd be there shaking my phone like, hi cogs on the tv. That's so fun., and during that time I was doing a lot of modelling and I, and a lot of shoots and we were going, you know, I've been in magazines.

Reed: It is crazy., definitely something that I miss, but I do not miss where my mental health was at the time. You know what modeling's like, it's all fucking drugs and alcohol., and it's really hard to get yourself away from that really, really hard. 

Shell: Yeah. I mean it's, yeah, it's, well, it, to be fair, you know, the word that you write down, a word that I think about a lot when I think about my career in hospitality and there is a parallel, here is the word exploitation.

Shell: And again, modeling. I think there's a lot of exploitation and, you know, yeah. Some people, people like, who don't understand the sex industry, like myself, would also go, oh, exploitation. You know? I mean, mm-hmm. How does one become a sex worker? I know that sounds like a really clumsy question, but, mm-hmm. I mean, you know, was that something that you were around people who were doing it or, you know, how was it that you kind of came across that type of work?

Reed: So, and I am, I am a sex worker. I'm a proud sex worker. Yeah. I love that. I'm, I'm there on the front lines of the protests, trying to change the laws and, and do my part. 

Shell: Yes., 

Reed: so, I always, what was obsessed and interested in sex? Anything that was to do with sex. I think it was like an ADHD hyper fixation situation.

Reed: Yeah. It was just all I was interested in., and, you know, I, I went to uni. I got my television production degree. I did tv and that was just not where I wanted to be. I wanted to be a porn director. I wanted to create my own porn. Got into the industry, I dunno how, 'cause it's really hard to get into, but managed to get my foot in the door and.

Reed: Work in the porn industry on production. So did everything from like running script, writing, all the way up to video editing, camera operating, and then directing. I'm a director now, which is amazing. That's awesome. , and during that time I did meet a lot of porn performers who were also in the industry, so I was interested in that and I was freelance, fresh out of university, couldn't really get the jobs and the, the income that I wanted.

Reed: And so heard this lucrative thing, which was webcamming and. I ended up moving in with, I met Florence, who I do the podcast with on a porn set, and I also met, another porn performer, and we ended up living together and it’s kind of just exploded from there. She showed us how to webcam, and both Florence and I started Webcamming, and it was just a perfect way to have a flexible way of working and income when suddenly you're on call and you need to go off for three days and film a shoe, or you are, you know, you're being called here and there and it, it, it needed to be more flexible and sometimes you'd have weeks, weeks and weeks with no work coming in.

Reed: So again, I relied on sex work. It was perfect for me. 

Shell: I love that. And, and again, that's what I mean, you know, it's like, you know why? Well, yeah, why do people automatic? Not all people think, oh, exploitation, you know, bad, bad, negative, negative because the way that you've just described. Five, 10 years or whatever of your life, if you'd just taken the word sex out of it, I'd have been like, wow.

Shell: She had a crack in 20. Yes. Traveling the world, living with friends. Mm-hmm. Making money flexibly. But then the moment you throw that in, even now in these, in these, uh, you know, 20, 25 times mm-hmm. I think that, and again. I feel there's almost, there's probably more than two camps, but there's the one camp being, oh, they're being exploited.

Shell: And there's then the other camp that's just like, no, it's bad and we shouldn't do it. And yeah. You know, why do you feel that We are still, so it feels very archaic still. 

Reed: Mm. And I, I, I appreciate the honesty because sex work is still demonized. It is still looked down upon. Yeah. People do not understand it, which is wild.

Reed: When or seek Understand it. Yeah. Seek to understand it. You're so right. And also, there's not that much good, uh, education out there or representation of sex workers. When we think of a sex worker, what we've seen in movies and tv, which is, someone who is drug riddled, who is. Involved in violence, involved in theft and stealing, who is literally at like rock bottom.

Reed: My rock bottom does not look like sex work, by the way. And I will get into what My rock bottom. Yeah. No. Yeah. Well exactly. My highs look like sex work. Some of the best experiences I've had is through sex work and the best people I've met and, and like, I mean, sure the money is great, but it's allowed me to express who I am fully without being judged by other people in say, normal industries.

Reed: Bro, I've had so many normal jobs and I've never fit in there. I've never been able to feel comfortable working for somebody. Mm-hmm. The only time I've ever felt like I actually enjoy my job, and I love what I do, is when I'm my own boss and creating the content and doing the work that I love most of all, which revolves around sex.

Shell: Yeah. We 

Reed: still, as a society are really. Like twisted and have really backwards thoughts about sex, about people owning their sexuality., and I do believe that is a misunderstanding and a misinformation around sex work. Uh, looking at coercion and sex trafficking. And we banned all of that in together.

Reed: And yes, that can be a part of sex work, but trafficking isn't sex work. Trafficking is illegal. Sex work is legal. Of course there are grey areas here and there, but I think it's not understanding or asking what sex workers to have been put through, what they go through to get there. When really, you're just supposed to ask us, just ask us why we like doing sex work.

Reed: Why do we feel like we need to stay in sex work? Why am I not working for the BBC right now with my television production degree and I'm choosing to do sex work even then. It's my body, it's my choice. Even if I wanted to be right bang smack in the middle of an orgy and not be paid for it, then that should be okay.

Reed: You know? Mm-hmm. Like, sure. That maybe is a bit extreme for a lot of people. Maybe they wouldn't do it themselves, but that's something I want to do that I'm excited to do now. As soon as we add money to that situation, all hell breaks loose. Yeah. 

Shell: Yeah. 

Reed: And it's exactly liked the amount of times I've gone on a date, I've met someone, not been super like wowed by them, but like ended up back home with them.

Reed: Maybe because I was horny. Maybe it was a pity fuck, maybe to try and rekindle something, who knows., and slept with them and been like, oh, okay. That was a bit rubbish. But as soon as I mentioned that money's involved, I've spoken to a client on email. We know exactly what we wanna do. I know exactly how much I'm getting paid for, for what acts.

Reed: He's respectful. He is taking me out. He's treating me like a goddess and he's paying me for a sexual act or a service. And people lose their minds over it. It, it's, it's almost incomprehensible like, oh, I could never, I could never do that for money. You are already doing things you don't wanna do for money.

Reed: Oh my God. Right. When slave labour, I'm just having a great fucking time doing it. 

Shell: Oh my God, I wanna be a sex worker. No, but it's 

Reed: because 

Shell: it's so, well, it's, you know, all the words that you are using you that, that you were using things like service, you know, things like contract. I don't think you said contract.

Shell: Yeah. But you know, that's what it means. Yeah. You know, an agreement, you know, a service in exchange for money. You know, who, what, what on earth do we think we're doing? What we, the rest of us are doing? What am I doing when I was working in a restaurant? Mm-hmm. And, and being treated. Horrendously the sexual, harassment and the way that women are treated in our industry.

Shell: Mm-hmm. And there's a lot of, uh, conversation around it now, which is great. But I mean, conversations are conversations. Hopefully there's action., and I was getting paid a pittance, and again, that word exploitation, which have kind of brought up just at the beginning, which we go, oh, sex work exploitation.

Shell: It's like actually hospitality was exploitation or absolutely. Retail. You know, the hours that people are Oh. On your feet all day, man, who I talked to a friend this morning, about Amazon and I am terrible., I am part of the problem. I do all stuff off Amazon that I should really not, I get that same, it hit the ADHD mark when I need something. 

Reed: tomorrow, man, I need 

Shell: something 

Reed: now.

Shell: Yeah, always. And I'm like, you're always there. But I, there was a, a kind of like a, a, well it's like a drama documentary thing on b BBC based on a true story about like how they, the pressure they put their team under, like to pick things per hour. And it was like there, somebody had, I think there was a, the, in the, the true story, the person had killed themself from the stress and you know, wow.

Shell: That is exploitation for. For nothing, for no money. Mm-hmm. You know, but, oh, I work at Amazon. Oh, Amazon. Oh, you at Amazon? Yeah, yeah, yeah. You 

Reed: hear a big-name brand and you think it's safe. And as soon as I say I'm a sex worker, I have sex for money, people are like, oh my God, the safety. Are you okay? Are you a hundred percent risk?

Reed: Is your, do you have daddy issues? How's your mental health? You must be riddled with drugs. Mm-hmm. You know, it's just like, I, I, I do understand where that comes from, but those things happen in any and all industry. 

Shell: Yeah. You know, like 

Reed: the people are, are completely exploited and I, I, it does get better the older you get, the more you're not gonna take shit anymore.

Reed: And I understand that the way that sex work in a lot of the media now is quite glorified. You know, OnlyFans celebrities are doing it, so you are getting young people and like maybe just after teens. Sorry, just after 18, uh, thinking that this is gonna be what they're gonna do. Mm-hmm. And like, they're gonna earn all this money and it's gonna be amazing.

Reed: It's actually the same with all, all celebrities, all Instagrammers and influencers. Exactly. And crypto boys that are like, yeah, I've earned all this money. It's not real. You know? Yeah. There is good and there is also tough times and difficulties, and I have faced those in my life, but no more so, or no less so than anyone else in any other industry.

Shell: Yeah. And again, I, I think that's why the work that you do, , you know, in everything that you and Florence do and you know, and the people around you, it is just so important because if somebody does want to go into that line of work, they do need to speak to, you know, the elders of the industry. They do need to know.

Shell: Mm-hmm. Much like we do in any industry, the way to work safely. Things about, you know, especially, You again, you said the word coercion and ADHD neurodivergent people. , I'm autistic and ADHD and I am very, now I realize coercion is a, is has been a real challenge for me. And you can call it people pleasing and it sounds super-duper cute, but it actually often coercion and exploitation.

Shell: Yeah.  mm-hmm. And it's something that yeah, I've gotten myself a lot in trouble with. And again, I think that I doubt there's, I what I gonna say, I wonder if there's ever been a study done amongst neurodiversity and sex workers That would be interesting. 

Reed: There are huge connections between sex work bet and ADHD, especially with that whole, you know, like less risk assessment.

Reed: And what's the feeling when you like, up into something without thinking about it? 

Shell: Oh, we have got no risk aversion, you know, and it's all about the chase and the dopamine and, you know, you and I, before I pressed record, I was like, oh, I'm actually just working on a piece of work I should have been doing.

Shell: Weeks ago, but I'm doing it now because now I'm fucking enjoying it. You know? It's, yeah. It's, it's must. Yeah. There must be a big correlation also. Mm-hmm. Same with our, in hospitality, us neurodivergent folk, we don't often get on very well at school. We often don't quite get the grades that we want, so we fall into communities that will embrace us with our, our misfits.

Shell: Mm-hmm. You know, the, the weirdos, the, the strange kids. We are desperate for that community and connection, which is what hospitality, and I imagine the sex work industry potentially can also provide that community. Yeah. But then like you say, we need to be protecting them. 

Reed: Yeah, it's really interesting 'cause it's the, uh, like, it, it's the same with seeking out those communities and those like-minded people.

Reed: And that's where I've kind of moved into. And there are huge connections with sex work and ADHD, but also polyamory and non-monogamy and also king con fetish can be a part of that too. Not always but the, like, I am polyamorous, I have multiple partners. I have my main nesting partner and just Aw, is that real To 

Shell: nesting partner?

Reed: Yeah. Nest. That is adorable. Yeah. Nesting partners, like, yeah, the person that your kind of like want to build the home with and the family with. And of course that may change, but so can monogamous relationships they change. Yeah... Hmm, uh, what was I saying? And yeah, and of course huge connections with drugs and alcohol as well.

Reed: Like most of my friends are part of the sex industry who have had issues with drugs and alcohol who are poly or non-monogamous or at least think that way. , and maybe they're in a monogamous relationship or like they need to make a change. But it just, I dunno whether that's the community I've created for myself or I'm just seeing all of the similar people that have been had diagnoses or, you know, that it just all makes sense.

Reed: It's all like locking into place. Yeah. The dopa chasing no, 

Shell: a hundred percent. And, you know. The reason, well, I reached out to you, , however many months ago, and one of the reasons that it is taken us so long to get this locked down is to do with a DH ADHD and something that I really, really struggle with.

Shell: Yeah., which again, might be something that you do., rejection, sensitivity disorder. , and I wondered how that kind of shows up for you in, in your type of work. So, I had bought a microphone. It didn't have a cable, so I had a meltdown, obviously. Classic, ADHD. Oh, autism meltdown even. Yes. And then I did something else, and again, it wasn't working.

Shell: Now a regular person would probably just buy another microphone. I spiralled for, uh, probably about three weeks into a, I'm worthless. I'm a piece of shit who, nobody even wants to listen to me. Who do I think I am? You know? Mm-hmm. Because that's where our head goes now. Awful. Obviously, I then pulled myself out and I loved the fact that I knew.

Shell: Mm-hmm. And again, I really am grateful for the people that have around me. Like people like yourself. I knew I could be honest with you and say, hey, it's, you know, you're welcome to not wanna do this anymore. I've messed you around and, you know, I knew that you would understand, which is great. Yes., but in an in, in a, in a work industry where it, I mean, feedback I suppose is a big thing for you.

Shell: Is it like mm-hmm. How do you handle that? Do you suffer with that rejection sensitivity? I mean, if a guy, if I'm, if I didn't make a guy come, I'd probably not be able to go to work for four weeks. You know, like failed sex worker. Yes. 

Reed: yeah. Yeah. Rejection, sensitivity in that regard is, is quite tough. Uh, I've had to learn a lot.

Reed: I, you know, been in and out of therapy for the past 10 years. I, I do a lot of work on myself. I'm learning now. I'm learning communication and language and understanding, I mean, that's why I like sex work because I could under, I could better understand people., that, that I found so fascinating.

Reed: But rejection, sensitivity, I definitely feel it with my boyfriend if, and I have a much higher libido than he does. And anytime I sort of suggest or hint and it doesn't really go. Like, it doesn't go sexy then I'm, I'm mortified. I feel like he doesn't love me. Yeah. And I feel, I feel like so distressed, and it can, yeah, it can be days if not weeks of feeling like our relationship is over, it's ruined.

Reed: I'm never gonna be able to be happy, you know, and it's just, uh, and the coming, oh my God. I literally, I remember that so clearly. Just being like, you know what? It, it's not real sex if the man doesn't come. If the man doesn't come, what the fuck is that about? Oh, so mad at myself. I blame, 

Shell: I blame not my fault.

Shell: Steven Spielberg in movies. 

Reed: Yes. And also, sex education. Sex education was so obsessed with male ejaculation. That's all we ever took. Talked about. It was like that was the big bad thing that you had to wear condoms for that that was gonna get you pregnant, that was gonna get all the STIs. No one talked about female pleasure.

Reed: No one talked about anything other than ejaculate. And it, it really put that in my brain of if someone doesn't wanna come and they don't have to come, they don't have to ejaculate, you know, they can have, they can just enjoy sensation and it's not the end goal for so many people. I'm dating someone at the moment.

Reed: Yeah. That it's not all about the end income. I'm like, I don't understand. Cause also my orgasm, my pleasure is about the end orgasm. And if I don't have it, then I also feel like a failure. And then I obsess about that and it's just like, can't really win. 

Shell: I feel like I've just had my mind blown a little bit.

Shell: Yeah. It's so, and because, you know, and let's bring in the old drugs and alcohol conversation and your mm-hmm. We, the rooms that I hang out in IE 12 step rooms or recovery rooms, lots of women, and we talk frequently about never having sex sober, ever. We've never had it. Oh, wow. You know? I know, including myself.

Shell: I know so many, and males actually, I was just gonna say, but it's, it's, it's mostly my, my gal pals, mm-hmm. And. There's a lot of fear around now going in that in sober. But again, I think that there's, yeah, it's that fear of rejection. It's that lack of self-confidence and all of that. That meant that alcohol and drugs have always been, that's fuel.

Shell: That's always been the thing that has fuelled intimacy for me, and I've never had intimacy without it, and I know that I'm not the only one. And you know, so you've been navigating sobriety, I mean mm-hmm. Much like I imagine hospitality in that, is drugs and alcohol a big thing within your industry? 

Reed: I mean, it's huge.

Reed: Yeah, it is. It was a stupid question. I knew the answer. It's everywhere. I think it, it, it ends up being more talked about or, represented in sex work because sex work is already sex. There isn't really much else that's shocking to the average person. So, drugs and alcohol are kind of just a part of that.

Reed: People don't hide it as well in the sex industry. I think that drugs and alcohol is rife in all industries. You know, you're a big banker, you're doing coke off the table, you know, like there's so many things that you're doing to hide the fact that you have a drug problem in the sex industry, we don't hide it as, as well, you know, same as hospitality.

Reed: It's celebrated. Yes. Yeah, yeah, yeah. Exactly. You're working behind the bar and everyone just gets, no one gives a shit your drunk. Yeah. Yeah. So, I, I don't think it's that it's more rife in the industry. I think it's just more public, more spoken about. Mm-hmm... So, I, I'm actually hitting my 11-month sober tomorrow.

Shell: Oh my God, that's incredible. Oh yeah. I'm so crazy excited. 

Reed: and actually, a journey. Who knew? Who knew. 

Shell: And actually even that, which I think, you know, we were gonna record one time and that we had the tech problem and you had had responded really honestly and said, you know what, I'm feeling a bit shaky right now.

Shell: And even that, I think, you know, 11 months, you know, how has it been? I mean, actually no, let's not go for the 11 months. First, let's go. 11 months ago, when you decided, because I know you're an open person, you are gonna be happy to talk about it. She's like, no, always anything. But you know what, what? The harder it is, the 

Reed: more I wanna talk about 

Shell: it.

Shell: Yeah. Well, I mean, what brought you to that decision? You know, both of us, we are working in industries, we're partying, we're loving life. It's all good. No one's coming at us, you know? Yeah. Did you realize, was it a little while ago you thought, fuck, this is getting outta hand, or 

Reed: It was, yeah, it was, it was probably when I first realized I was, I was addicted to weed smoking weed like years ago, maybe like six years ago.

Reed: And I stopped smoking weed 'cause it was giving me panic attacks and severe anxiety. It was awful., but I still kept on drinking and drugging and especially using that with sex work. So, I would, I would create. Sex work. If I'm doing like a, a photo shoot, , a scene, uh, like a, a, a live webcam show with another person where I couldn't just hide and be myself, you know, I was actually doing it with another person then yes, alcohol and drugs were there because it just made it so much easier.

Reed: Yeah. I didn't have to face my fears of being awkward with somebody., I never enjoyed sex on drugs and alcohol. I actually was quite like, ugh about it. I could never orgasm if I'd had a couple of drinks or more. I, especially on drugs, you know, and you get that icky, don't touch me, overwhelmed feeling.

Reed: That was, that was me. So, it was this really weird back and forth of. Right. I, I'm using drugs and alcohol to do my sex work. To do my work., but then I actually don't want anyone to touch me, but I'm pushing through and doing it anyway. And then also learning that I enjoyed pleasure more when I was hungover on a come down the next day, the next couple of days.

Reed: 'cause I was so much Horner and using both of those as like these weird swing crutches. And so, when I went sober, I had to learn how to do all of that sober. Yeah. You know, with, without the drugs and alcohol, do the work sober and also enjoy sex sober. So that has had a huge impact on mine and my partner's life really.

Reed: 

Shell: oh, 

Reed: so yeah. What was the original question? I went off on a tangent, 

Shell: 11 months ago. One day and 11 months ago. Oh yes. Oh, my 10 months and 30 days. 

Reed: ago. That's the right math. Yes., so that was actually with my partner. , oh, I'd given up weed and I had a severe cocaine addiction. , oh, I also cocaine.

Shell: Let's have a quick moment about that. Because cocaine Yes. And neurodiversity and yeah. That is not talked about enough either. And I used to use cocaine to go to bed. Yeah. Wow. The one effect that chilled me out did, were you also using it more as like a woo? 

Reed: Yeah, so it would be, it would be like, I am super, it was more like everything was shut down and I was calm, and I could breathe crazy.

Reed: Right. My brain could switch off and so yeah, I would do just piece it and they like, hmm, yeah, this is great. But I would also use it, initially when it started to get my emails done, to get my chores done, to be able to. Do all the things that I couldn't do. Mm-hmm. And so, yeah, but then it would hit a point.

Reed: I’d be like, the stuff frozen, this is nice. And, and like 

Shell: procrastination because again, that neurodiversity like the overwhelm when you just go, I'm not doing anything. And again, like yeah, the way that cocaine releases that, that freeze frame so you can get on with stuff. And then again, that when it does, you can, it just quietens down the noise.

Shell: And if I'd known that that was happening again all those years before, I might have put one, two, and two together a little bit sooner and gone like, hang on a minute. But I never used to tell people that that's how I was experiencing taking that drug. Like I, people would take the piss outta me. Cause I would go straight home to bed or like, they'd find me in the corner of parties passed out after having like six pills.

Shell: They'd be like, what's she doing? Sleeping. I would just, I'd go straight to bed. 

Reed: Yeah. Like just like super dreamy. Yeah. I think I remember falling asleep or being completely out of it. Yeah. Just in bliss. I just remember being in bliss on the floor, just like I don't have to think about anything or anyone or any.

Reed: And then obviously that's like, that's the fantasy. You're actually not there. You're not connected, you're not with your friends, you're not listening to music. You think you're having a good time. And it's all lies. It's all lies. We tell ourselves to keep taking the drugs. Yeah. When actually the more sober you are, the more you find the connection, the more you love the music and the people and the places.

Reed: Unless obviously, you know, sensory overload, but you find ways to cope with that, not through drugs and alcohol. Yeah., 

Shell: yeah, cocaine. And then you have the alcohol alongside the cocaine, 

Reed: which 

Shell: just 

Reed: is such a, oh my god. Cocaine. Ethylene is a little bitch. I fucking loved it so much. I couldn't have one without the other.

Reed: It was just, it went so hand in hand and then chain smoking, oh my God. The chain smoking the chain, smoking the, the fucking joints and then the cigarettes and, oh, geez Louise. So yeah, that was, that was a time, same with mcat. I was heavily addicted to mcat. That was like my first experience with drugs at university really as in like heavy experience.

Reed: Mm., that and weed. And then I lost my train of thought, oh, what got me sober? That was the train of thought. Yeah., so yeah, that was kind of like 10, over 10, 12 years ago when I started heavily, heavily getting into drugs and using them at the very least every weekend at the very least. Mm-hmm... And what got me sober was I started going sober.

Reed: I'd given up cocaine for like a year. Mm-hmm. And I was like, okay, I really kind of should really do the rest of them like that. That is kind of my plan. And then I met my glorious boyfriend, and we just went a little bit crazy, and I felt like I was losing control of my sobriety. And then we went away on holiday and shit went down.

Reed: Shit went so down, and it was so awful., and it was all revolving around drugs and alcohol and we ended up nearly breaking up and losing each other. And this was like about a year into our relationship. 

Shell: Mm-hmm. 

Reed: And I realized that I had completely lost control. And if there wasn't a big drastic change that I was gonna end up killing myself with the drugs and alcohol.

Reed: Something bad was gonna happen. So, I was like, yeah, I, I need to go sober. And, and I did. And it was fucking horrible for so long. It's, it was, yeah. What then? No one tells you how difficult it is, man. Like Yeah, the drugs are bad, and the comedowns are worse. And I was the same. I would spend four or five days in bed on a comedown.

Reed: Mm-hmm. The shame, the guilt, the, the anxiety, the just screaming at night in my head just to try and drown out the noise because I couldn't sleep. I had really awful insomnia. I still have bad insomnia, to be fair., and then, hmm. Lo and behold, you, you get to your like, you know, I went to NA, NA was a real massive supporting help.

Reed: Mm. I had a therapist at the time that helped me really look at my drug and alcohol intake. And one day became, 30 days became, uh, 90 days became six months. And yeah. And I'm, I'm coming up to a year, which is just crazy. Yeah. But I honestly felt like I was gonna die through those months. Like, I thought I was gonna go crazy and yeah, it was wild.

Shell: And I think as well, like, I love like. Your honesty around like, 'cause it's the same for me. You know, you have those years where it's like it gets bad and now, and then it's okay and then it gets bad. Oh yeah. But then it's back to being okay. But then it's like those last like 12 months, that last two years where you just mm-hmm.

Shell: Look back and you're like, wow, which turned into a fucking Ben fire. Quick. What? What? Like, whoa. Yeah. And sometimes like, and I've shared about this before, I'm like, hang on a minute. I was, I was just sat having a lovely glass of Merlot at a bar and having a nice time. Yeah. And 

Reed: mm-hmm. What? 

Shell: the fuck am I doing in aa?

Shell: Like, 

Reed: yeah. That wasn’t. 

Shell: on the cards, like mm-hmm. You know, like there that there was never, for me anyway, when I started, I never had an indication. And again, I don't think people realize that. Like, you don't get to an age, or you don't go through an experience and get a little letter in the post saying like, congratulations, you are not gonna be an addict.

Shell: Yeah. Well done. You know, it's not like Hogwarts. Yeah. 

Reed: Because no one, no one tells you no, you don't know yourself. You can't see it when you are in it. Mm-hmm. It's so bad and you still can't see it. And, and the worst part is, is people might bring up drugs and you will be so angry and reject that possibility that you might have a problem.

Shell: Yeah., 

Reed: and of course it's, it's recognizing that feeling of being so reject instead of being like, oh, maybe you are right. Like, maybe you don't have a problem if you're just being like, actually, yeah, you're right. If you're like, no, I can stop any time. I don't have a problem; you have a problem. You know, like, bro, there is something there that you're, you are missing.

Reed: It's it, and it's only clear when you're out of it. It is only clear you have that clarity because. Drugs and alcohol for a lot of us is escapism, is protection, is a coping mechanism. Whatever the reason is why you end up falling down that rabbit, rabbit hole and, and abusing and losing control. 

Shell: Yeah. 

Reed: There is a reason for it.

Reed: And you can learn how to do that without the drugs and alcohol. You know, they, they say that its, alcohol is the symptom. Alcoholism, uh, drug addiction is the symptom of the problem. And once you come out of that, once you stop trying to medicate with all the wrong things, it is, it is excruciating because you have to relearn it.

Reed: Or it's like a crash course in relearning what everyone else has done through their teens, through their early twenties, especially if they don't drink Dr. Uh, drink or do. Mm-hmm. Do drugs or alcohol use those same coping mechanisms. They've learned how to cope without it. But not many people have, because so many people drink.

Reed: You know, I used to think that sober people were boring. I'd meet someone and be like, oh my God, I could never have that life because drugs and alcohol was my life. That is, I based all of my weekends around when I was gonna pick up and when I was gonna get fucked., I would, I would schedule in time after festivals.

Reed: I would go to festivals all the time because I knew that I, it would give me the acceptance of doing four, four or five days and I could just drug find myself for those five days. But oh my god, the payback, the come downs, the screaming tantrums and fights and all the pain and the suffering you feel, and the hurt and all of that just comes out and through the surface when you are not.

Reed: Looking after yourself. I mean, it is, it's a really painful journey to go through sobriety, but it's so fucking worth it. Yeah. When you start realizing that your sobriety and that interest to learn and dive in and make sobriety more fun, then the fantasy of the drugs and alcohol is when it starts making a difference.

Reed: When you're like, actually, this is fucking amazing. I'm really enjoying this moment. A moment that I would never have remembered or never would've even like, thought about, or, you know, I don't, it just, it's just mind-blowing what sobriety can do for you. Yeah. It's crazy. 

Shell: Oh, it's so nice. I like, and I, and, and you, you know, you hit the nail on the head.

Shell: Many times, drugs and alcohol, that's what you say. They, they were never the problem. They were the, the solution to the problem. You know, lovely gal mate who says, you know, I don't ask why the addiction. I ask why the pain? And I can still remember hearing that. And I was probably, I don't think I was quite sober even yet.

Shell: I was still kind of like pretending that it was all gonna be all right. But, you know, that spoke to my very soul. You know, nobody uses alcohol and drugs to excess because they're having a lovely time. Mm-hmm. They are using it because they're in pain and they need compassion, and they need people around them that understand.

Shell: Where they're coming from. And I really believe in the power of whether it is 12 steps, whether it is a community group, smart recovery. Yeah. Whatever it is, to have those people alongside you that can really look you in the eye and say, you know. I've been there. Like, and, and I, yeah, I understand. There's such a power to that.

Shell: It just, it takes away all your bullshit, you know, as we say, you can't bullshit a bullshitter. And, you know, I've got a friend who I was talking to earlier, and they have somebody in, in a work situation that they know is secretly drinking. And, you know, this person is, is behaving the way that we got away with that, you know, and she just, and they're just like, oh my God, we are such idiots.

Shell: We, we were used to be like that, thinking that we would get in the way with this mm-hmm. Whole secret lifestyle, and we just mm-hmm. We just weren't. And I mean, I, again, I love the fact that you talk about, you've mentioned therapy a few times, which I'm just, again, such an advocate for because, and I say that all the time when people say, oh, you know, oh, you've stopped drinking.

Shell: You're doing so well. And it's like, no, no, no. I stopped drinking. I did the 12 steps. I also did therapy. I also had a nutritionist to help me with my gut because my gut health was non-existent. You know, because, oh my 

Reed: God, it can't be when you're drinking and drugging that much. A hundred percent and not eating properly.

Reed: Oh, 

Shell: literally. And so, I've had, I had a lot of help with my gut health. I've had all sorts of other different things. I've done sisterhood circles, I've held crystals under the moon, and which was a bit weird. Amazing. I did a sound bath, which was shit, but you know, like 

Reed: I love sound baths. They're, they're incredibly powerful for me.

Reed: But it's all different. Okay. Cause someone was snoring, oh no, you gotta go, you gotta go to my friend. Honestly, it's like I've had out of body experiences. I'm not a spiritual person. I'm completely like atheist. But I had a spiritual experience where I was like, oh, I get it now. You love that. You know, just from the power of the sound bath.

Reed: but yeah. That's so cool. I, I've, I I've tried it all. Done it all. Exactly. And I would also like to say NA is one of the big ones. Aa, I haven't been to an NA, but NA doesn't work for everybody. No. NA has liked a very specific set. And there were lots of times that I was in NA that I didn't feel like I fit in there either.

Reed: But if you are looking to go to NA or aa, just go to a bunch of different sessions. Makes sense. Try and find the one that works for you. I went to, like queer ones, L-G-B-T-Q, AI ones. That's why I felt more comfortable. Mm-hmm. And there are loads of other helps that you can do that isn't so based around God and religion.

Reed: Like, I struggled with the language so much that NA used because it was very much like you have to admit to having a problem and you are an addict. And, and it was like very like, like. Just puts you down, like smacks you down. And then also, yeah, bad, bad is laded. Yeah. Bad you. And then it was like, but God is here to save you and God's gonna bring you up and you just need to find God.

Reed: And I was like, that just doesn't work for me. It doesn't, it doesn't compute in my brain. It can work amazingly for other people. And it's magic because you know, going to church can literally change that routine of going out to the pub with your mates instead of going to church and being around like-minded people and, and feeling that amazing glory and that faith.

Reed: But it didn't work for me. And I also, I'm not, I'm not a hundred percent sober. I am drug sober. I'm drug free. I gave up all the drugs. I still drink. And of course I've had lots of fears about still drinking. And NA over and over again has told me; you need to give up the alcohol. You must give up the alcohol.

Reed: It's the same thing. And I do agree for a lot of people it is very similar, but for some people. One, it's not the same. Mm-hmm. And two, maybe they need to find out for themselves and, and, and figure out if they can or can't drink or can and can't do this thing that they shouldn't be doing. Yeah. You know, you can't give up every single addiction and all in one go.

Reed: That's just very difficult and almost impossible to do. And my relationship with alcohol has completely changed since giving up the drugs. Yeah. I can go out and enjoy a couple of cocktails and not feel like I need to over drink or go crazy, but again, I'm already trying to prove to sober people out there that like, I'm not a bad sober, I'm a good sober.

Reed: And, and like, where does that thought process come from? 

Shell: Do you know what? And it's so interesting as well because, and I was gonna say thank you for being so honest, but you're always honest. So, thank you for everything., like. That's one of the reasons that I did the sober cunt socks, because I really pushed, I love my 

Reed: socks.

Reed: I love, oh, I've got much, so many colours coming out 

Shell: in a couple of weeks. Very excited. , but I really pushed against, like, when I became sober, I just felt so rejected of, well, self-rejected, I suppose, from the drinking and the drug taking and all that world. , but I really struggled to find a spa, a place that felt safe within the sober world because I put on a load of weight when I stopped drinking.

Shell: A lot of people lose weight. Yes. Mm-hmm. But I got diagnosed with fibromyalgia, so I, I have like a chronic illness at the same time. So, I've actually put on lots of weight. I can't do any of the things I used to do really. Mm-hmm... Also, I don't like running. Even if I could run, I don't want to. Yeah. You know what I mean?

Shell: I'm like mm-hmm. Fuck no., you know, I'm not into yoga. Just because I'm sober doesn't mean that I've suddenly become a particularly, you know, like soft and nice person. I'm still me. Mm-hmm. And exactly like you've just said, I think sometimes the, the challenge is, especially nowadays with sobriety being, you knowing and there's a, this and the community that again, you, you've got, we risk pushing people away by not accepting and understanding people's personal journeys and Yeah.

Shell: So, I can be sober and a massive cunt still. Yeah. And that's why we did them. And it's, it's been really interesting as well. And I, I didn't do this on purpose, but I'm pretending I did. But you know, the word sober and the word cunt, which word is more offensive to you? Yeah. Ly. And there would've been times Absolutely.

Shell: Yeah. The, the word sober. Sober, 

Reed: yeah. So sober. I'm like, oh, sober. I'll be a cunt, but I don't wanna be sober. Why? Yeah. I wanna be a cunt. That's crazy. Thinking about it like that. Yeah. It's just, yeah. It's a fence, isn't it? I think that's why it's so important to, we have a lot of imposter syndrome anyway with sobriety, and I feel like that's, that's on us to really take control.

Reed: Because everyone feels like they can do sobriety better than you. Everyone's gonna give you their advice and it's gonna come across judgmental, and they're gonna be worried for you. And you know, you shouldn't do this because you need to do that. No. You need to do you, and that's the most important part of sobriety.

Reed: You need to go and fuck up to realize that you can't ever fuck up again. You need to go and like, uh. It's so important being able to trust your gut and who you are and make those mistakes and learn from those mistakes. Yeah. Rather than making a mistake and not telling a soul and being so mortified that you have, use that as a tool.

Reed: Use it and be like, okay, I did fuck up and maybe I need to look at something. Maybe this is showing me something that I've been ignoring. Yeah. It's uh, it's the same with sobriety. Letting people's words and how they think they can do it better or how you should be doing it, run off you and thank you.

Reed: Thank you for your advice. Thank you for your, your care. I'm still gonna do it my way. Don't let anyone else tell you that their way is better, or you should be doing it a different way because then you lose sight of who you are, and you lose sight of your own sobriety. 

Shell: Yeah, and I think probably your whole experience of working within the sex industry has probably given you such a great attitude around that because you've been navigating people telling you your entire career that they're so concerned about your choices and things like that.

Shell: Yeah. So, to be able to kind of like really lean on that must have also given you like this kind of unspoken strength, which I think, again, I, and I just love the fact that you've now added to you. Advocacy and your way of educating people within the industry that isn't given the same support that accounting is, that you can do it sober.

Shell: That there are other options and that, you know, yes, it is okay. And again, you can be that soft voice for people who are, who are navigating that and finding it really difficult. You know? So, Bravo, you Reed. 

Reed: Yeah. Thank you. That's really a lovely of you to say. I think you're right. I think being a, being a sex worker and doing things and being interested in things that most people wouldn't feel comfortable with.

Reed: Mm-hmm. Or, you know, there is that judgment and discrimination around them. It has taken me a long time to feel comfortable in who I am. It's taken; it has taken that work. Yeah. But honestly, when I, when I think it was like I hit 33 where it just clicked and I was like, oh, I actually really like who I am.

Reed: And I honestly think a huge part of that is down to going sober or going sober slowly. Yeah. , I wouldn't have been able to have that process without, I just, oh, and my therapist, honestly, my therapist, all my therapists have been amazing, but therapy has been such an incredible tool for me to be able to understand myself also getting an ADHD diagnosis and really feeling that power and understanding myself more there.

Reed: Yeah, because you are right. ADHD meds, they are stimulants, they. There is a reason why a lot of people in my favourite NA classes, NA sessions are neurodivergent seeking cocaine, seeking sexual habits. Mm-hmm. They're sex workers. We all band together because it's, it's the people that love cocaine.

Reed: They're, we're all the fucking same. Yeah, no, a hundred 

Shell: percent. It's, it's the same with hospitality people, you know? It is, it's all this. Yeah. And like mm-hmm. Fast forward to 50 years’ time, but finally we understand that people's brains are different and who knows, you know, like maybe it will be that we won't have, , as many, I mean, God, it's a whole other podcast, , episode, if you wanna get me started on undiagnosed neurodiversity addiction and criminality.

Shell: Yeah. Wow. 

Reed: You know? Yeah. Our, 

Shell: our fucking prisons are full of people that never had a bloody chance because they weren't diagnosed. But like I said, that's another podcast episode. 

Reed: No, yeah. That's such a, such, when we get to list called Point Criminality, I was a little 

Shell: klepto as well when I was a kid.

Shell: Mm-hmm. Mm-hmm. Dopamine, dopamine chasing, and again, I hear about this a lot in my recovery rooms about people stealing but not out of necessity. Again, it's that rush. And even in, in sobriety, there are people that I know that still do. Mm-hmm. Because it's like you're still seeking that hit and it's, oh my God, that makes so much sense.

Shell: I can imagine it's addictive. Interesting. Yeah. Yeah. Hundred percent. Luckily at the minute, my only addiction is sugar. I say, luckily, it's fucking the hardest thing I've ever had to come off ever. Sugar. Whoa. Is so. 

Reed: Hard and I can't even begin to imagine, I mean, I'm smoking, don't do it. I stopped smoking and then I started again.

Reed: 'cause I was like, I fucking need something. Like, yeah, 

Shell: right. I need some edge man. 

Reed: I need something. I can't do it all, you know? Oh my God. Yeah. It's, it's also about like, what, what's distressing you? Yeah. You know, if, if your sugar addiction or if your addiction isn't distressing you Exactly, then maybe it's fine.

Reed: But when it starts to distress you, when it starts to infiltrate your life and you see like how, how bad it is, you finally have that clarity. You're like, oh, right. I see the pattern Now when I have that thing, then yeah, maybe it is time for a change, but you don't have to give up everything. You're not a bad sober person if you still rely on a couple of addictions, like just, you can take your time with like you, you will be Reedy when you're fucking Reedy.

Reed: You can't force it. 

Shell: Yeah, you've gotta put out the biggest fire first at the end of the day. And, and you're right. The reason I've stopped with the sugar is because I'm, I was using it like alcohol and hiding wrappers around my house, and it's like, and I live alone, so who the fuck am I hiding it from?

Shell: Like, you know, like, oh, no one or no, Ivy eaten it. It's like, I'd literally live with my dog. Oh. Like, you know, it was just suddenly in the shopping basket. And I'm like, not giving it like eye contact, like the way you would with anything else, or knowing that there is some chocolate at home. The thrill of knowing Wow.

Shell: You know, like mm-hmm. Was almost more exciting than. Buying it. So yeah, like you said, oh wow. That is, 

Reed: yeah, that is perfectly describing an addiction. I'm exactly like that with cigarettes., and sometimes, uh, savoury. I like crisp. I'm also salt. It's the salt man. It's the salt. Yeah. 

Shell: No, mine's sugar, used to be the salt, but it's sugar.

Shell: Maybe it's a perimenopause thing. So, watch out for that. Yeah. You've got 10 years or so yet. But 

Reed: yeah, shit will change. And I think it's important to talk about the menopause and addiction 'cause you're not coping very well through the menopause. So, you are gonna, you are gonna run to those old coping mechanisms.

Reed: It makes sense. Hundred percent. 

Shell: I cannot wait. No, that's gonna sound mean. I was gonna say, I can't wait for you to go through the perimenopause and hear all about everything you're navigating, but I don't actually, because perimenopause is hell and I really hope you don't get the same symptoms that me and some of my friends have had.

Shell: But if you do, I'm so interested to be learning all about that when, , in the time that it does happen because I just, yeah, I just find you absolutely wonderful and just so fascinating and just such a gift to the world with everything you do. And you've really kind of already answered this question, but I do have to answer, ask it still, otherwise it'll be weird 'cause I've asked everybody else.

Shell: But what does recovery mean to you? 

Reed: Oh my god. Recovery. Is finding yourself, is finding who you truly are. Deep down amongst all of the, the pain, the suffering, the distractions, the covering it all up. Like actually truly figuring out who you are, what you want, what your desires are. You know, are you introverted?

Reed: Are you extroverted? Do you love dancing? Completely sober? Do you love sitting at home with a book for days on end and not talking to anyone? It's, it, it, it's like it's trusting your gut, which I've never been able to do. Mm-hmm. It's having that self-assurance. It's saying, fuck you to the imposter syndrome, and knowing yourself, that is my recovery.

Reed: Oh, 

Shell: beautiful. I love that, Reid, thank you so, so, so, so much for being here. Oh, thank you. Honestly, I very rarely agree to speak to anybody past 6:00 PM in life and that's, this has been recorded at that hour, so you know, you're pretty special right there. So, no, I honestly, I appreciate it. Just appreciate everything that you do.

Shell: Thank you so much. And uh, yeah, I just can't wait to see what's next for you and I'll put all of the links of everywhere people can find you and your incredible podcast, which is Fast Liquor than this one. We'll all be in the show notes so people will know where to seek you out., but yeah, thank you so much for being here.

Reed: Thank you. She, this has been so lovely. It's like so nice to actually open up about this stuff 'cause I don't get the opportunity as much and yeah, keep going with the sugar baby. You got this one day at a time. Yes, listeners, one day at a time.