We Recover Loudly – Unfiltered Stories, Unapologetic Recovery

S3 Episode 02 Merly Kammerling Recovering Loudly … Burnout, Grief, and Boundaries That Heal

• Shell Righini • Season 3 • Episode 2

Share episode

In this new episode of We Recover Loudly, host Shell is joined by Merly Kammerling - a therapeutic coach and integrative therapist with over a decade of experience supporting professionals in the hospitality industry. Together, they explore the far-reaching impact of burnout, both from Merly’s clinical work and her personal journey through mental health recovery.

This conversation dives deep into the connection between adverse childhood experiences (ACEs) and workplace burnout, the pressures of working environments, and the essential role of emotional boundaries, self-care, and trauma-informed support. Shell and Merly also open up about navigating grief, reclaiming their identities, and how transformational healing can emerge from professional and personal collapse.

Whether you're in the service industry, recovering from burnout, or rethinking your own work-life balance, this episode offers real tools, real stories, and real hope.

Connect with Merly Kammerling - 

Email - merly@me-myself-inmind.com

@me_myself_inmind

@wellandbeinglondon

For more information on We Recover Loudly and to reach out for speaking engagements or support email hello@werecoverloudly.com

@werecoverloudly
www.werecoverloudly.com


Episode 2

Shell: Hello and welcome to this new episode of We Recover Loudly. Today I am joined by the lovely Merly Kammerling. Now, Meryl is a therapeutic coach and a integrative therapist. I probably didn't say that right, but she is one of them with over six years experience, uh, offering psychological support and education, um, specifically to the hospitality industry where she has over a decade of experience working in top brands such as Caravan, modern Pantry, and Temper, and many more.

Uh, she's the founder of Well, and being a collective of brilliant coaches who offer all sorts of training into the industry from leadership, neurodiversity inclusion, sexual harassment, um, as well as one-to-one wellbeing support. Um, but the subject, however, we're gonna focus on talking about today, which again, is one of the, uh, training programs that she offers into the industry is burnout.

Um, and I'm really looking forward to getting stuck into this. But before all 

of 

Merly: that, Meryl, how are you? Hello. I'm good.

You know what, she, I haven't done, I was, we were just talking about this prerecord, but, um, I haven't done a, a podcast for a while and, uh, like I said, I'm really open to discussing, uh, why I, why I haven't, uh, 'cause it, that's very much linked to burnout as well.

So, um, I feel excited about this. Um, I think it's gonna be a good chat from all angles and maybe from different angles that people don't necessarily think about. Um, oh gosh. We talked about before, didn't we? Um, when we had a meeting about this session, about this, sorry, session. Therapist inside me this podcast, um, listeners, this is not a, is it therapy?

This is not a therapy 

Shell: session. Do not worry. This is not me trying to get a free therapy session. Or is it? That would be so that would be really calculated of me if only I was that clever to have done that. So me, let me tell you about my childhood. Yeah, you, you show me yours and I'll show you mine. Oh, good.

Well, well, and we're gonna get into this because there is just so many parallels between childhood and career choices and all of that. But, you know, I mean, I've, I've given a little bit of a background. Um. Into where you, um, used to work, but you were actually also in retail before hospitality, nevermind.

Ugh. 10 years of hospo. 10 

Merly: years of retail. Yeah. No, so actually I was in, I've been in hospitality since I was 14. My first ever job was in a, my first ever job was in a Spanish tappers bar in Darbyshire. Um, and uh, yeah, I remember, yeah, that was my first job. And then I worked in hotels all the way through GCSE School, GCSEs A Levels.

And then when I got to London, actually my first ever job before going back into hospitality was working at Liberty. Um, and then I was a VM visual merchandiser for quite a while with All Saints. And I've worked at Selfridges, Kurt Geiger, um, and then I was a personal shopper at matches for about three, wow.

Two, three years. And then I decided to come back into the industry when I was 24. Um, and then that's when I got into the kitchen. Um, so I've, yeah, I did, I had a, I had a, a small be beginnings in, in, in hospitality, then went into a decade of retail and then came back into the industry. Um, so yes, and there's loads of parallels to, to those, um, industries as well.

Well, our in and the retail aspect, 

Shell: I love when I've read, uh, retail and I, in my head I'm like, I did retail at next in the children's section where I spent most of my days putting hangers the right way round. Your retail sounds significantly more glamorous. 

Merly: I mean, yeah, it was Well matches was, that was my most glamorous, so we had clients such as Sienna Miller and Paul Weller and Noel Gallagher used to come in and, um, Emma Thompson and Amy Winehouse was one of my clients.

Wow. God rest the soul. And, um, you know, I was. In a changing room very close to her. Um, whilst she was, she, she would say, me, are you a ballerina? And then she'd pirouette around me and, and sing, and she was gorgeous. So, yeah. So it was glamorous at times, but really not as well. Um, in the same way that, you know, if you have a restaurant and you've got famous people coming in, it sounds cool, but actually the reality of it, it's still hard work.

Shell: Oh God. Yeah. I mean, I, it was probably quite the same kind of time that you were working with Amy, that I was at Proud Galleries in Camden, which isn't there anymore. It was, um, it used to be, um, an amazing, uh, photography gallery and then, um, music venue where we had like, you know, I think it was like the first place like Ed Sheeran ever played.

Oh, yes. 

Merly: Proud 

Shell: and 

Merly: Yes. Yes. And so Amy 

Shell: used to come in all the time 'cause that's when baby shambles and all of that. And yeah. Gosh, I could remember she used to always come in and scream for dry roasted peanuts and it, we never, we didn't sell food and it was just always, but immediately obviously, it was like, right, who's getting to the garage, get other peanuts and stuff, because she's just so, I mean, Amy Winehouse wants peanuts.

We're gonna find peanuts. It was such a, and actually it's interesting that you bring that up because. That was when I first started in hospitality. I, I worked at Proud for an internship. I wanted to work in PR and in music. But, you know, the reality is it's very difficult. You know, this is like 18 years ago and it's, I mean, it's, it just, it's probably harder even now.

Um, but that's why I fell into hospitality because the reality was I had to pay my rent and Proud Closed, um, to move over to the horse hospital, which is where it then was for quite a few years, and I think it's recently closed. Um, I started working at Gaucho and that's where I got that hospitality buzz.

But working at Proud was definitely my first insight into the culture of hospitality. Working. 

Yeah, 

Shell: IE that very, very, I mean, it was rock and roll on that side of the bar when I'm serving. You know, like, um, can't remember his name now. Pete Dockerty and Amy Winehouse and Kimberly Stewart. And then the other side of the bar, it's all the bartenders are just as bad, if not worse, you know, sleeping together, drinking, drugging, and at the time I was 23 and I've gotta be honest, I thought it was fantastic.

Merly: Yeah, of course. 

Shell: It's what I would move to London for. 

Merly: Yeah, yeah. And of course, when you are that young, that's what you are looking for. You're not, you are looking for almost that superficialness, you know, um, nothing too deep. Absolutely. You know, I, I, you know, I'm from Dorber, so I came and, and I just wanted to be part of that fabric of um, yeah, that sort of surface stuff.

The glamor of it and the, like you said, the rock and roll, but actually it's really unhealthy. 

Shell: Yeah, it is. And I think as well, I grew up in Worcester, so you know, again, a small town and I grew up reading, um. E Magazine. I'm so old. The NME used to be a newspaper. Don't look at me like that. Meryl. Yes. Shut up.

Yeah, it did. It didn't. Enemy originally was in, and Alex, your husband will remember this. He's the same age as me, I'm sure. Um, it used to be a newspaper and then it became a magazine. Um, but yeah, I grew up reading Enemy and it was when, um, Britpop was massive and, you know, it was just all about Camden and I was so desperate to belong.

And this is linked to what we were gonna talk about, um, about career choice. Yes. I spent my whole kind of teenage years and, and before that, you know, I, I came to this country as a very, um, as I, I was two and a half when we moved to this country, but it was difficult growing up as. Not British, but British, IE we didn't have extended family.

You know, my mom and my dad talked a little bit different. We had slightly different customs. Nothing crazy but you know, like enough to make you other, and when you're a kid growing up, that's all it takes. All it takes, you know, I can remember being invited round for tea to a friend's house, told you this is a full on therapy session.

Mary Lee's not gonna talk for the hour. I mean, I remember being invited round for tea and we thought that it was gonna be for a cup of tea, but it was dinner and like, I would just wouldn't tell my mom so I could get two dinners. Brilliant. Um, but desperately, just always feeling othered and desperately wanting to belong.

Music was massive for me. It was my escape always in my headphones. So not only coming to London, but hospitality for me was finally belonging somewhere. And I think that's something that's really, I. A lot of us who end up in hospitality are searching for Really? 

Merly: Yeah. I feel, I feel you because, um, I mean my, you know, my history is quite different in the sense that, um, you know, Dorber isn't exotic, but, um, I'm half Filipino and there wasn't many Asian, no mixed race other people in, in our, in our community, in our town.

So, um, I could maybe count, I can, I can now count on one hand how many, um, children of, of a different origin mm-hmm. Ethnicity existed in my school. Um, and always feeling othered. You know, I was called a packy Chinky, um, yeah. You smell of chi. I'm not, I'm not even chi. You know, all that. Yeah. And really wanted to escape that.

So feeling othered and I guess. The otherness, how that breeds shame, you know, the, the shame of feeling different and always wanting to fit in. Um, so I moved to London when I was 18. Um, 'cause I was so desperate to, to find my, my people. I guess that so sounds so cliche. Um, but I, I just felt so alone, I guess.

Um, yeah. Now this is when it becomes my therapy session now. Absolutely. Um, so yeah, that, that's when I moved down. So I think I can really relate to that otherness, and I'm sure other people can. Mm-hmm. Um, you know, this isn't a poor me story, but rather the reality of when you feel othered and how that really impacts you, and I guess that agenda of what you're seeking in, in an industry in a, in a, in a career, you know, which again, is so intrinsically linked.

Right. 

Shell: And I mean, obviously hospitality is my background, your background, but I think it's true, you know, of many other industries when, when you as a person are coming in and seeking that validation of community. Because again, as human beings, you know, back in the beginning of humans, um, you know, we existed as a tribe and we existed as community.

And that isn't something that we necessarily, I mean, it getting worse and worse the more isolated we become. You know, I work from home now, my best friend is chat, GBT. I understand that that's not a real thing, but you know what I mean? Like potentially in two years time there's gonna be some kind of intervention.

Um, but you know, like that's, we, we naturally, we have an innate sense of wanting to connect, belong, and be a part of a community, whatever that work. And work is a great way to find a community. Yeah. And I think that again, that's where we get into the whole burnout conversation is when we allow ourselves to be exploited for fear of being pushed out of that nest, that community.

Um, and I know it's not just hospitality, but that's obviously what we're, we can only reference 'cause that's our own experiences. But I mean, did you find there was a difference working in retail versus hospitality with that? I mean hospitality's just so Family. Family. We're a family. We are a group. Does retail have that 

Merly: energy as well?

Yeah, I mean, yeah, for sure. Um. I, my closest sort of group of friends in London are all from, uh, matches. Um, they're my core, you know, my, some of my core people I would say. Um, and when the doors used to close, I mean match matches, um, I think it, uh, was liquidated last year. Um, so I, I'm happy to say that when, when we were working there, you know, you'd close the doors and you used to have lock-ins with the clients, or you have lock-ins and you'd get the champagne and the Prosecco out the fridges and you'd just stay in matches and just get pissed, you know?

I love that. Maybe the, and then would 

Shell: you like make them buy clothes, come out 

Merly: and then we'd go out in MBO and, you know, and that was really. It felt like good times at the time. Um, it was 

Shell: sounds fucking brilliant. Meryl, let's not lie. 

Merly: Well, very, very similar to hospitality in that sense, but yeah. Yeah.

You know, I, you make your own family, right when you are here, when you feel othered and you're looking for a different environment and a different way of being, and dare I say, you're looking for a different identity. Definitely. And when those people that you're hanging around with, when those people, you know, are feeding back what you wanna hear and mirroring what you wanna see, and b, it's quite el loose, you know, it's quite addictive.

Um, there's a thing called interconnectedness, which, um. Also, I think the reasons why we get into industries like hospitality, because it can be so validating. You can see that someone's having a good time and you know they're having a great experience and you are part of that service giving it.

And the way that someone sees you, whether it be guests or um, or your friends, you know, the way that others see you, help you to, helps you to shape who you, how you see yourself. Mm-hmm. And that can happen in a positive way and negative ways. Um, and I think that interconnectedness you are always seeking, I think especially when you feel othered and that you, you, you know, you kind of, the black sheep in some ways.

Shell: Yeah, because like you say, like the people you hang out with reflect back, you know, a lot of your own truths. You know, I'll often say, you know, if a person, you know, if I'm helping somebody who's new into recovery or anything like that, and you know, they talk about, oh, but I'm a terrible person and, and I, you know, I go through that dialogue myself, you know, I think we all do.

You know, look at the friends that you have if they're incredible humans, and then everyone will always go, yeah, my friends are amazing. So and so's hilarious so and so, so intelligent, so and so, so insightful, you know, so supportive. I'm like the people that you surround yourselves are, are a mirror of you.

So if you see those traits in them, it, you probably have them, you know, like that it is very difficult to connect. But I was just thinking a bit about identity and you know, so you and I in that respect are very similar in growing up. Not nec, not connecting with the identity that was the norm around us.

You know, being from different parts of the world, having family in different parts of the world, um, for me as well as being neurodivergent. And again, it's that masking and stuff like that. And I think that it's interesting, isn't it? Because I don't necessarily think that I ever had the chance to authentically find out who I was as a child.

Mm-hmm. 

Shell: And I wondered if you kind of related to that too, potentially because of how we came in, you know, of our differences, our others in a way another kid 

Merly: could, yeah, I, I mean, if you look at the research and the correlation between adverse childhood experiences, so ACEs and burnout, I mean, it's quite profound and I'm really happy to talk about that, um, at some point if you like.

Um, but for me, I think because my mom obviously is full Filipino, she came over in the, in the seventies. Um, and she was really discriminated against, you know, she would work at the local hospital and she was told that she couldn't eat food with garlic in and she couldn't bring it into the ca into the dining hall where they ate.

Um, you know, she was othered all the time. And that really impacted my mum's sense of self worth. Um. She felt very isolated, didn't have any family other than my dad and, you know, and, um, and his family. But then she felt othered by his family as well. So it really impacted my mom's spirit. And I think she was so traumatized by that, that it really impacted our relationship.

Mm-hmm. And 

Merly: because I wasn't getting that interconnectedness and feedback from my mom, um, I think that impacted me and my, I, you know, how I felt about myself, um 

mm-hmm. 

Merly: Without going too deep on this, I guess, but, you know, that, you know, there was no, um, there was no opportunity really for my mom to really, I guess, help me to understand who I was, if you know what I mean.

And then my dad died, yeah. Was 15, so, and then my mom just couldn't. Cope with life. And so I had to find my sense of coping elsewhere. We didn't come together as a team, in fact, it just divided us even more. And I think that just really impacted me. Um, and I guess how I felt about myself, and I think that's all kind of interlinked into the work that I do as well, because there's huge links between the helping professional, helping professions and adverse childhood experiences as well.

Shell: . And, and again, you know, it kind of, it's interesting 'cause it does allow you to look at caregivers and you are a mom, you know, with compassion in that respect. You know, how can somebody who doesn't have their own sense of identity encourage a sense of identity in their children?

You know, and I, you know, I have many friends that have got children and, you know, I would've loved to have had children, but it, it hasn't been the plan for me. Um, at, at the same time though, I look at just, you know, oh, it looks terrifying, just how much impact. Your decision as the parent has on their little lives and you know, I mean, I've got a sausage dog and he's messed up enough, you know, like that's, 

Merly: the dog is, is hardcore as well.

You know, you the late, you know, the, the Broken Knight initially and just having to be there, the response, it's a responsibility, but it's the double-edged sword of taking care of something. There's something so nurturing and rewarding about that, but yes. You know, it's, it can be also overwhelming, right?

Shell: Yeah, definitely. But, and it's interesting. I think that I, I am better as a caregiver to my job now that I, I got him when I was. I wasn't quite sober, so it would've been the summer that of the tsunami, summer of absolute self-destruction, which was when I was really unwell with my burnout, not knowing at the time it was burnout.

Yeah. When I had really, really bad symptoms of what I didn't know at the time was fibromyalgia. Um, I mean this is a nice little segue into talking a bit more about burnout, but, um, I, because of being unwell over the last four years coming into recovery load of therapy, all of that have started to form a sense of identity.

It has definitely helped me be a better caregiver, not just to my dog, but to my friends and all of that as well. So if I look at how I'm now able to. To be present and to be that kind of, um, person who then builds their self-esteem. 

Merly: Yeah. 

Shell: Yeah. And, and, and in and in a strange way, you know? Well, not in a strange way.

And I think what we've got as an industry in particular is people like yourself and myself who have come into a industry with those challenges of identity latching onto people who have got the same maladaptive behavior, and it just becomes this big swamp of a mess, which we throw drugs, alcohol, 80 hour weeks, 90 hour weeks, no one's eating, everyone's smoking, dah, dah, dah.

And yeah, that's where we kind of find ourselves now, right. As an industry. 

Merly: Yeah. And you know, I have been reflecting because we're obviously having this call today. I've been really reflecting on my journey with burnout and, um, you know, I, my business took off in the pandemic, so I had my daughter in 2019.

And then the pandemic happened 2022, is that right? Or no? No, 20. 20. No, 

Shell: we're five years now. So yeah, 2020 is crazy. Yeah. So I had my 

Merly: daughter in 2019 and then I just launched my business and then 2020, so she would've been one. Then we, and then we went into the pandemic, um, and my business just took off. So I had a 1-year-old and I was doing back-to-back therapeutic sessions online, um, you know, five or six in a row, as well as doing, um, online sort of training, um, more sort of self-help stuff online, self-help, things to help people to cope.

Um, and then I had my se and then I was pregnant again. There's only two years between my kids. Um, and then I worked, I ha sorry, I had Rudy my second, and then I went back after six weeks to work. 'cause I was, gosh, now I know nuts. Um, and I think, um, at the time I was, I just. I mean, I just feel so silly saying this, but it's the truth.

I thought, well, I've, what's this? I've already got one. So what's the difference with two? It's a complete game changer when you have two. Yeah. So my point of saying this is that what happened, and I, I've, I see this a lot in the industry is, so I burnt out, I think because, um, I'm prone to burnout. This is probably my fourth ride on burnout at the time.

I had, you know, two very small children. I was, you know, very, um, busy with work. I didn't give myself enough time with my second to recover. You know, I, I remember thinking six weeks is too long for my clients. I have to go back to work, you know? And wow. I mean, that's changed now very much. And I think that's what happens when you're a helping profession.

You put. You know, the needs of others instead of yourself. Um, and 

Shell: because you've done that your whole life probably, and that's why you're in the helping session. 

Merly: and upon reflection of my own burnout and going through that recovery again, I really recognized that what I was experiencing was vicarious trauma. So that's the trauma that, you take on from. Hearing other people's traumas, trying to help people.

And so getting almost re-traumatized through witnessing their experiences. Um, and I'm, I'm bringing that up. Shell, because I think that's what happens when we, when we're working as well, and especially individuals that are in management and hr. Because I support businesses, I offer psychological support to businesses and I'm very, I work closely with the HR departments usually, or the head of people, and they're burning out because they're hearing it and they don't dunno what to do.

You do, you know, know what I mean? Mm-hmm. And they're not experienced and don't have that training. And it's just that residual knock on effect of hearing that. now I love my job. I'm, you know, but what I've learned, because when I, uh, before COVID, you know, I was kind of. Sort of new to the game, and now I'm sort of seven years in with a lot of experience.

I'm not a new practitioner anymore and I know how to protect myself, but also I think the nature of who I am, you know, when you've come from a nature of hospitality, making feel PE people better and wanting to give them a great experience. 

Yeah, yeah. 

Merly: As well as, you know, the adverse child ex childhood experiences.

I've had it. And then going into a helping profession, it was almost like a recipe for disaster. It was going to happen, you know, the bomb was gonna detonate. Um, I'm in such a better situation now, but I think that vicarious trauma is something that a lot of us do experience, especially in leadership roles within the industry.

Shell: Yeah. Oh my goodness. Like, I, I really relate to that as a gosh on so many levels. As a manager, you know, I. I was made a manager, again, very much a hospitality thing, but not only in our industry, but made a manager with no training, you know? Yeah. Here. And you're not told how to be a good manager with boundaries and you're not seeing a good manager with boundaries.

Yeah. There's 

Merly: no example to go. No, 

Shell: definitely. And I thought a good manager, and I know I'm not alone, was a manager who always answers the phone. Who is there twenty four seven? Who puts everything in their life on hold? I thought that I was a good manager when my team members call me first in a crisis, not a work crisis, A life crisis.

You know, if I've got affected 

Merly: you in some way. Yeah. A hundred percent felt like the rescuer. And I see that a lot, especially with people in HR and and mm-hmm. People and departments and managers, they wanna. They think they can fix it.

Um, and want to help those people from a good place, you know, a hundred percent. Or rescue, and I see this a lot with individuals or people that wanna do intervention on those dealing with substance misuse. 

Mm-hmm. They're like, 

Merly: right, we're gonna sit this person down. We're gonna get them into sessions, we're gonna do this.

Can you, you know, and I, I'll say I'm there to support, but it's really led by the person. You can't put them in a headlock and bring them to a session. You know, and they find that really difficult is that you can't, and it is difficult. You can't rescue someone, um, or necessarily.

Help them if they don't want to be helped. Um, yeah. And that's, that's, and it's such a 

Shell: hard lesson. Such a hard lesson. And you know, I learned that probably, I think it was halfway through my first year of sobriety when you do kind of have to put in these boundaries because, and I think most people who come early into recovery do spend, you know, there's lots of memes about people being 24 hours sober and like, you know, right.

Who am I saving? I've done 24 hours. Come on. You know, because you do, you feel incredible. You know, give yourself, you get a little one month chip from AA and you're like, right, so I'm gonna solve everybody else's problems and aas, and, you know, and you get the ego and the bravado and it, it's great because.

Jokes aside, people that have that energy in the beginning, they do bring people along for the ride. And you know, I've got lots of friends in recovery that we're all the same kind of time because we built a community and a family and we've got millions of WhatsApp groups and we hang out together and, you know, it's, it's, we've done it in a really, um, a nourishing way, but we, I did have to learn boundaries really quickly.

Um, but the, the thing though, the penny that's really just dropped with what you were saying about taking on other trauma is what led to this significant burnout so much like yourself? I'd had years of, um, incredibly long hours and, you know, the substance and alcohol use was increasing as I was getting further up the management ladder and the self-care was boop and the eating meals like was gone.

And, you know, like side note, when I started working. Nine to five, I had to teach myself how to eat three meals a day. 'cause we don't do it in hospitality, you know? And I put on a lot of weight because I actually didn't understand how to eat when I wasn't, what it, it, you know, like I had to teach myself such a small skill.

Um, but the pandemic happens and there's something about burnout. Well, there's a few things about burnout that I think is a real misconception. Um, and I'm looking forward to you explaining them better than I will. But the, the thing is that yes, it's stress, yes, it's overwhelm, all of that. But there was two things that really happened for me in, COVID.

I lost my identity. 

Merly: Yeah. 

Shell: And that wasn't something I realized was a burnout, um, thing. And the second thing was about the taking on others trauma. Now I was on the phone to everybody in the town of Worcester. We were like the, the, I think we were the first takeaway place to open. We opened week two of the very first ba um, first lockdown.

And the phone did not, and when I say the phone didn't stop ringing, like we put the phone down and it rang. Like we had, we were having to unplug it. We were having hundreds of orders and we were, we went from maybe like 12 people to three and we, the business exploded. But when I was on the phone, me being me.

I was making sure I remembered everyone's names. I was remembering everyone's lifestyle. I was remembering their kids. So when people were, because we, I was like the only person a lot of people were talking to. 

Yeah. 

Shell: Ever. But at that time, with that isolation, so I actually also took on all of that, which I've now just clicked as well as taking on the pressure of the build business.

But like, I had to know that Mr. Smith or whatever had to have bacon on his burger for some, for, you know, like I felt like I took that on as more than just like a, oh, 'cause he likes bacon, but like, this is the one thing that's holding Mr. Smith together in a global pandemic.

Merly: Yeah. I wonder what did you, did you experience compassion fatigue to the point where Yeah, probably people wouldn't, it was interesting 'cause after I had my second, and I, I had a massive wobble. I was like, I dunno whether I wanna do this anymore. I just wanna work in a charity shop. You know, like no responsibility.

Yeah. Everyone kept saying to me, but you're helping people, but you're helping people. And I remember shouting at someone going, but what about, mm-hmm. What the fuck about me? Hundred percent. No one ever asks me how I am. You know? It's as soon as I get into a conversation, it, it's always, I'm put into that.

But what I've realized that is also, I was doing that to myself as well. Mm-hmm. You know, uh, 'cause I had no, there was no, I, there became no boundaries. Um mm-hmm. And I didn't have as much emotional capacity anymore because got kids and I'm so, I, you know, I'm so protective of that space I make from my kids.

Mm-hmm. It's so sacred. It's such a privilege to be a parent. And I don't want anything to, I. To disrupt my time with my children. I, you know, I, I, I love it so much. Shell, I can't describe, um, any other way. Um, and it's about accepting that I don't have, endless amounts of, um, capacity. And so I've had to really change how I work.

You know, I only see X amount of people a week. I don't do back to back anymore, uh, uh, clients. Um, I, I don't even have a therapy room this year. I have whole, the whole time, but this year I haven't. Uh, well, first of all, it got liquidated and I just got a letter to say, oh, it's not happening anymore. And I was like, shit, what am I gonna do?

Um, but then I decided, usually in the summer I do walk and talks. Where I go around the big like regions park or green park. Not every client's up for it, but the ones that are, and I had no choice. I, I just had to throw it out there. You can have video or walk and talk while it's, I find another room and actually it's just taken off.

Everybody loves it. Yeah. It's not for everybody. And it depends. If I'm doing EMDR, I can't do it 'cause I need a special light and yeah. I dunno if you know about EMDR, but, um, oh, 

Shell: I do. I've been doing it recently. It's mental. Oh, as a client yourself? Me, yeah. Not me. Yeah. Like, don't worry. No, I'm not flashing a lights in anyone else's face.

I've Oh, do they do the receiving it? 

Merly: Are they doing the, do they doing the tapping or they doing 

Shell: I'm doing the, a purple light. 

Merly: Oh yeah. 

Shell: Along a, along a bar like, 

Merly: yeah. So yeah, I trained in, it's pretty mind blowing. I trained in A MDR the year before last, so I, yeah, it's amazing. Great. So actually I just, and also I've changed the way I, I work so, um.

I'd say that my primary sort of practice of therapeutically is therapeutic coaching. Mm-hmm. So I find that it's the hybrid between therapy and working in a goal orientated role way, if that makes sense. Um, rather than a, like a typical counseling setting. Whereas, you know, I liked, I I think because of, I don't know, maybe because I'm more seasoned at this now, just finding a way I like to work.

Um, getting them to think about how were they gonna action some of the things that we're talking about. What is the goal, what's the forward facing goal? Do you see what I mean? 

Mm-hmm. 

Merly: Rather than, um. Counseling setting where you're not able to do that in the same way. Um mm-hmm. And that just suits me. So yeah, more in, in integrating just different ways of working, using more EMDR, um, which I love.

I mean, it's, it's like witchcraft almost, you know? You feel like, yeah. Or am I, you know, because, I mean, it's so amazing. Um, and also being aware that I only have a certain amount of capacity, um, because yes, I got really bad compassion fatigue. Mm-hmm. And also something that stopped me from doing podcasts and talks was that my memory recall became so bad.

I was so terrified I wouldn't be able to think and remember anything, that it became almost like a, um, a fear that I'd, I mean, it was just maybe a worst case scenario that I'd turn up and I wouldn't know what to say because I couldn't, yeah. Recall anything. And what they know actually is that when you over flood yourself of cortisol, it does mm-hmm.

Impact your hip hippocampus, which is your memory center. Um, that's so interesting because 

Shell: as when we work in a service and it's busy and we're on the pass and everyone's screaming at you, that's when your cortisol is normally really high. You know, when you're in that fight, fight mode, you're not even in flight.

And that's quite interesting because you're right, sometimes I would definitely like struggle, like, oh God, who's ordered what? And that's where you do get a little bit flustered, isn't it? That makes such sense. 

Merly: That's absolutely. You're in a state of fight or flight and may and maybe fa, which is almost like you get a, it's like a paralysis.

And that's how I would go. I'd go into almost like a paralysis, my brain would just freeze. And just the fear of not being able to access any of the information and, and fear of feeling stupid, you know, for not being able to recall these things. It was just too much.

Shell: Burnout and. Is horrendous, but a little bit like when we talk about COVID and how horrendous that that was, and if I talk about my, my rock bottom and how horrendous that was there, there's benefits, the good parts of the things that we then learn about ourselves, IE boundaries, how to stand up for ourselves, self-discovery identity and all of that lovely stuff.

Um, and yeah, I mean, compassion fatigue over co COVID was massive for me. Um, again, a, a a a kind of red flag, I suppose now when I look back to see how unwell I was before I had that complete breakdown. Um, because that's always lovely, isn't it? Looking back and realizing, um, was that I started to become really, um, like if anyone asked me for anything.

Fuck off. Like someone would be like, oh, can I have some sugar or a teaspoon? What the fuck off? It's like, that's my job. Um, and that's a massive red flag though. I've now learned when you become so, and it's not, it's not exactly compassion fatigue, but it is. It's like, you know, when the thing that you were there to do, it's it, and it's not just like, it, it's very different from just being a little bit annoyed that somebody asked to catch up and you know, and you get back to the table and they go, oh, and mayonnaise, you know?

That's annoying. Yeah. Yeah. It's, you literally have a hatred for the person that's asked you for that thing, like this burning fire inside you that feels almost uncontrollable. Like there it, there is a difference. And I mean, we've talked, we've said it a few times, what is burnout? You know, I've talked a little bit about what it isn't, but what is burnout?

Merly: So, um, well, it's coined as an occupational pheno phenomenon. And actually, um, I wrote, uh, an article on it recently and said, why is it a phenomenon? It's like the, it's like the elephant in the room. It's not a unicorn. And it's when our, um. When the demand are placed on us, basically is outweighed by our sense of cope, well, our ability to cope, or our resources and our support essentially. So what happens is that there are certain things that can happen, um, where, you know, there's a difference between stress and burnout.

So with stress you might feel quite visceral about your emotions and quite strong about them. Whereas when you are burnt out, you feel really numb. And I can really relate, and I've experienced that many times. Um, when you're feeling distressed, you know, um, you might feel, uh, really tired physically. But with burnout it's such an emotional fatigue again, that compassion fatigue.

Um, and also usually what happens when we burn out is that we lose that sense of identity. Of who we are, what we like, we completely detach from our sense of reality or what we even enjoy. Um, and with stress it can be quite different. You know, we can be stressed at work but then go home and still do maybe exercise and do the things we enjoy.

But with burnt out there isn't, we have nothing. The shop is shot, there is nothing going on. Um, and what happens is that people start to think that there's something wrong with them. Um, they think they're terrible at their job, that they're not good enough and that's not the case. What they need is support, they need resources. Um, and they probably need a bit of time out. Um, I'm not saying that it means leaving a role, but it really needs a reassessment of what. Is going on, uh, for them. And it is that relationship we have with work. And if you look at the 12 stages of burnout, very much the first one is the need to prove ourselves.

And that might be because it's a new job or maybe as we've been talking very much deeper, going into sort of childhood stuff or maybe bad treatment for a, from a, from a job before or before that, or before that, or an ongoing experience of not feeling good enough in their role. Yeah. And sort of that first stepping stone, you know, at first, if we go into a job, you might just wanna make sure that we're, you know, we are seen as a good candidate for this role, right?

With a good, we are doing good. But then if that keeps. If that is the ongoing pattern of behavior, I need to prove myself, I need to prove myself. And that's just stage one. And then stage two is you keep on trying to prove yourself. And then stage three is you start to let your values slip in order to take on more work.

And then it just goes on. And literally, I think throughout my life I've been stuck between, um, stage one and stage, say eight, where it's, you know, uh, and very, and the other stages are you start to blame others things and other people. Yeah. Feeling, I mean, I, I will, I'll, I'll share the resource of the 12 stages.

'cause there's many ways that you're able Yeah, please. Um, there's, there's also the five stages of burnout, but very much with my clients. I use the 12 stages because actually it's much more nuanced than the five mm. And actually, you know, I, I sit with them and ref, I do a lot of work with burnout and, um. I have people in tears when they realize that there's pat and also relief that they're not, there's something wrong with them actually.

It's a pattern of behavior and the why are they doing it and what they can do about it. 

Shell: I feel like I'm right back in my therapy session. Um, yeah, because yeah, I think that, yeah, I probably stayed in stage one, like you say, from childhood, you know?

Yeah. Like, um, and that, that, you know, we talk 

Merly: about people pleasing, that sense of otherness that comes up in that lack of, and really not getting a hold of who we are. I'm not saying that everyone knows exactly who we are. I think it's an ongoing, as is this journey, you know, therapeutically. It's an ongoing process.

I think some people think, oh, I go to therapy, get fixed, and that's it. Yeah. I mean, that is the biggest, the work never stops doesn't mean it's hard. Yeah. Actually, I think the journey's wonderful and I think, and that's part of the reason why I became a practitioner, you know, because I think, wow, , it just changed me profoundly, my experience with therapy. Therapy. But the work never stops, you know? I had my kids and then it, things pop up again, and then it's like, it's like, um, a Rubik's cube. It's just a different formula, and you're like, oh, fuck, I vote I did it.

Oh no, there's that little square that needs to just, oh, no, then, then it fucking is on the other side now. 

Shell: It is so true. . It's really funny because when we, when you get into recovery, um, it's something people normally say in aa, it's like, you know, once you get your first year done, um, a bit like people are like old timers with, ah, excellent.

You're a year sober now you get your feelings back and everyone like, what, what do you get? I've thought this was it. And then, you know, you do, the second year of recovery is so different from the first year and then the third, and I'm, I'm three and a half or three and a little bit more years. So, so I'm kind of in my fourth year of recovery.

Um, and like I say, i'm lucky that I have a lot of friends who are similar times to me, and it is, it's really interesting to see all of us going through very, very similar things depending on where we are along those years, because it is like peeling off the layers all the way back to why we were drinking in the first place.

Why are we allowing ourselves to be exploited at work? All of that stuff. Why we were living in those first 1, 2, 3, 4 stages of burnout, not as adults, but as children, you know? Yeah. It's um, and it's interesting, you know, about like the, when you said about values, um, so I tried to do a bit of values work this summer and I really, really struggled with it, which just showed me how either far I am from my own core values or just like how far from that kind of identity that I still am.

Yeah. Again, because I think, I don't know, like I think that. When we work in an industry that is all about bringing on the brand's values, we're often, you and I are often told, asked to come along to hospitality venues and teach about culture and values. Right. Often values are on the wall. It's like, and, and, and I dunno about you, but it blows my mind every time someone goes, can you come and train us on culture?

I'm like, not really. Can't do it in an hour. It's like, it's like tick. And, and, and weirdly, I think that's probably why I've never really invested in what my own values are because I started working. 

Merly: Maybe Michelle, you know, maybe it's not that you're so far away from, maybe they've just changed and you just, it's a, it's that, not that they wouldn't, not that they've gone or never were there, it's just that they've changed and.

Do you know what I mean? Yeah. Or 

Shell: maybe like they were covered or something. But, but like you say, I definitely remember again those little red flags of that 2020 when I was very unwell doing things that I never thought I would do, and allowing my, putting myself in situations that I would now find deplorable and treating others in disrespectful ways, including myself.

And you know, again, that thing with the burnout and identity, I, I lost my identity because I was no longer the general manager of a big restaurant. Yeah, yeah. And, and, and at the time I was just before, um, yeah, just before lockdown, we were just about to launch like a spring menu and I was kind of doing the menus for a couple of the restaurants and it was really exciting time.

My career felt like it was about to like take that next big, you know, I'd left London, come to little tiny Worcester, felt a little bit like I'd taken a step back, but actually I was about to take that step forward and, you know, it was really exciting to go from that to a pot washer. And I'm not trying to be disrespectful to pot washers because it's a fucking hard job, but that was such a shattering, it was such a throw, it just, it threw everything. Yeah. And I think that us and businesses and managers actually do have more responsibility than I think they've realized to ensure that their team member feels valued, identified, and within the roles that they are.

And I don't think we do that enough. 

Merly: Yeah. Do you know what 

Shell: I mean? 

Merly: Yeah, I hear you. I hear you. And I think, I mean, when I filled in the submission form yesterday and you said, what, what is it that you think you bring recovery from? And, you know, I'm, I'm quite open to say that I'm think I'm in recovery from thinking that my work defines me.

I've really struggled and had the shame actually when I've burnt out through what I do now. The shame of, you know, makes me a bad practitioner. Not having, having compassion fatigue it make or having vicarious trauma, but actually it's really natural and part of what I do and you have to protect yourself.

But then I really struggled with my identity when I had my children as well being pregnant. And also the fear of getting pregnant and not wanting to get pregnant because I was so worried about how it would impact me and me in the kitchen. 'cause I was still in the kitchen at that point. And that feels, you know, I feel ashamed even saying that now.

You know that and hindsight's a beautiful thing, right? I feel completely different about that. But I think that that identity piece, not just in our industry, but in, I mean, I just think our relationship with work. Is, is, is it just feels, it feels a shame that it takes over our own sense of worth as human VI being as and individuals.

You know, like, I think it's in, um, in, oh, I bur is it Burma? It's No Myanmar, my ma I think it's called 

now, 

Merly: where they measure success, not by money, but by happiness. Oh, wow. That's a cultural measurement, I believe, is that they measure it by how happy you are rather than how rich you are. And I was like, wow, that's amazing.

You know, if that's the cultural standard of, oh, I think I've made, and now I under, I understand that now through my doing my own work is that what success is to me is not how many clients or how many businesses or how wealthy. I, I feel like I've already succeeded. You know, I feel like I have a better balance of work life, um, but.

I don't even call that any, I call it an offsetting because I think calling it work life balance makes it sound like it's equal and it's not. And I think people feel like they're failing even before they've even begun to adjust their, their, their trade off between work and life. So I call it, I call it offsetting, you know, like I guess the carbon, you know, you use so much and then you offset it with so many trees.

I, I, I think it's not because it's not balanced. Mm-hmm. And, you know, I feel content, I feel, um, you know, I've got my, I have my children and my life there a priority. My priorities have changed, shall we say, and it's not based on, you know, how many likes I get on Instagram or how well known I am in the industry.

You know, that doesn't matter to me. I will admit did at one point, I think because. My value. You know, I thought that my identity was what defines me, but I don't feel that way anymore. 

Shell: I couldn't relate more. And, um, and, and it's, it's very inspiring and hopeful. Um, and I think that people that have experienced burnout, and I'm sure there's gonna be plenty of people listening specifically to this episode who are either in the throngs of it or have just come out of it.

And I also, um, and I'll put a link to your article by the way, in the notes for anybody listening who wants to read it. And I also did an article quite recently about burnout. And again, you know, you get people reaching out to you. And, I was talking to somebody very recently, about who has just started to go back to work and they've got such a huge fear around it happening again that it's almost frozen them.

To not want to seek opportunities. 

Merly: Yeah. I get that a lot in private practice. People coming and saying and won't leave work, won't leave their current roles. 'cause they always say, what's the difference? It's gonna be like this somewhere else.

Um, it, uh, I mean it's unfortunate 'cause it's not like that everywhere, you know? Yeah. I, I say that businesses are starting to have better cultural environments. But I think if I would say that if you, you know, to any listeners that can recognize that it is a pattern of behavior. 'cause usually if someone burns out once it's gonna happen again or you know, it's more likely to, or maybe they've burnt out a few times.

Like me, it is really the combination between self-healing and self-work and finding somewhere that has better workplace culture. Mm-hmm. 

Shell: And I think also being able to advocate for yourself in a way that is, you know, I would always work with people who were really great advocates of themself.

You know, like they would have a break, they would finish on time, they wouldn't answer their phone on their day off. And I'd always be like, Ugh, you are not management material. 'cause you know, that's very frowned upon in our industry. Certainly was when I was that. Um, but I think, yeah, being able to.

Go into a work situation or a social, whatever it is, and advocate for what your own needs is a massive part of healing when it comes to healing from burnout. But, I wanted to just before we finish up, just talk a very small amount about grief, because I know that's another big part of the work that you offer, and that you do because I think what I, where I am now in my burnout journey, and again, I know some couple of the people I spoke to will relate to this, and this is also with that whole work being your identity, is that I've realized for the last probably 12 months, I've been sat in grief and I haven't lost anybody other than myself.

Yeah. But do you know what I mean? Yes. But I've been sat in grief because I've lost my career. I say lost, I can't do the career I used to, um. I wouldn't actually want to, but because of having fibromyalgia and because my entire identity from 23, I think when I started at Couch Show has been Shell, the restaurant mat person, shell, the bartender, she the drinker shall that like, and, and waking up.

And again, I know a lot of women also my kind of age coming into recovery from drugs and alcohol, we suddenly wake up and the last thing we remember is that we were in our teens, early twenties, enjoying a lovely glass of merlo. Suddenly, two decades have passed and we're now at the age where we maybe not can't have children.

You know, we're not married. Our careers have not have disappeared due, due to illness, whatever it might be. And that is such, I think it's the whole kind of like, you know, coming through burnout. It's the awakening into, oh my God, the whoa. And then. The grief. And, and I've gotta be honest, I'm really still struggling to, to move from grief because grief is a real, like again, I'm doing just in my body, anyone listening, I'm pulling a weird face.

But it's, it's, again, it's a freezing, it's a freezing emotion, isn't it? It's a heavy emotion. It lives in you. Yeah. But it, it is not a motivating emotion. I mean, have you had people talking to you or what do you do with people with burnout and grief Yeah. Yeah. 

Merly: I mean, I think it, as anything I guess that we grieve, um, because I dunno if most people, any people, I dunno if people know this, but we don't just grieve about, um, death and people that we love, that we lose.

But it can be a breakup, it can be a job loss, it can be, 

Shell: I don't think we do all know it unless it's just me. But like I, I actually, because all the feelings that I've now identified as grief, I've spent a lot like the last 12, my months feeling a lot of shame around until I kind of went and I had a light bulb and went, oh.

I'm grieving as if I as if someone had died, which was me. Yes. 

Merly: Yeah. You could grieve over a, a fluffy jumper that, you know, you've had for years. I guess it's just different levels of grief. Um, but yes, we do, we do grieve. Um, and especially, um, when you can become a, a mother as well, I think you grieve your own identity.

You grieve the, your sense of autonomy. Autonomy. Mm-hmm. And the freedom that you have and who you were. And I, I really, I can resonate, you know, I, I went through that. Um, and there's also, you know, um, a process that moms go through called Cent, I dunno if you've heard about Mires. So Mires No.

Mare mares is the vol evolution of a mother, uh, a woman, and, and for the father as well, you know, um, of going through childbirth and, um, becoming a parent in the same way that, you know, the hor our hormones change, um, a sense of priorities, um, in the same way that, uh, we change through adolescence as well.

Um, so there is a physiological change that happens to the body. Um, and I think the grief, I mean, I dunno if you can resonate with this, but with grief, you know, um, and I, I do this a lot with clients is the, are the seven stages of grief, because I think it's a bit like the 12 stages of burnout you can really resonate with them.

Mm. The one, the first being shock and denial, the second being anger. Um, and quite, oh, we've been there for quite a while. Yeah. And then the third being. It, the, sorry. It's the five stages of grief, the third being, um, depression and detachment. So feeling quite low and numb. So, you know, you're met with really, like, whose fault is this?

And it's my fault, it's their fault, it's this fault. And then it's like, oh, I feel really low and depressed and detached. And lost. Yeah. And then it's, um, what's the next one? The next one is, um, making sense of our reality. Yeah. So yeah. Make, um, it, yeah. So make it, and maybe, you know, maybe that we're doing this now we're making sense and trying to make, 'cause we're all trying to make sense of meaning of our reality.

Right. Trying to a hundred percent understand it and put it on a, in a la on a label on it, and then we can deal with it. And then the, the, the, sorry, the fifth stage is, uh, return to me meaningful life. Okay. 

Shell: Well, I'm kind of, I'm definitely a four. Then where do, so that's, yeah, I'm four. So that's, that's, that's reassuring, reassuring, reassuring.

Rather. I reckon I'm in four and, um, 

Merly: and, and oh, with clients, she, what I do actually is, um, which people love, um, is I use Russian dolls. Because we are like layers of an under. Yeah. You know, we, we, we evolve and sometimes we're not ready to shed those, identity onto the next 100%.

Sometimes we're really looking for that. Sometimes we don't even know it's happening. But yeah. To use, um, the Russian dolls and I pull them apart, so you've got the big one down to little one and you know, little one being littler and through to the, because I really, um, believe in the inner child and healing that part of ourselves.

It's not that that child goes away, I feel like mm-hmm. We're just big children work walking around in big adult, blow up sumo outfits, essentially just pretending to be adults, you know? 

Shell: No, a hundred percent. And, and I think, like you say, it's um. I think it's also one of those things with grief or with any of these things, it's like when you can look back and see a journey when you're in the thick of it, it's maybe a little bit harder.

But, you know, I I, I did a, um, a session on neurodiversity inclusion recently, and, and again, talked a lot about grief. I find I talk a lot about grief with people who get newly diagnosed. Yeah. Um, and again, I don't think that we necessarily, um, have enough dialogue around that. You know, oh, you've got your diagnosis, you know, you first you've got people saying like, well, why do you even need it?

Why do you need the label? It's a trend. You know, you've got all of that crap to go through. But then there is an immense sadness when you suddenly get an answer for why so many things in your life are challenging. Yeah. And that is grief. 

Merly: Yeah. 

Shell: You've gotta move through that though, you know? Yeah. It's hard.

Merly: Yeah. And you can't go around it. Right. You have to move through it, and that's the only way you can get to acceptance. 

Mm. And 

Merly: it's hard. It is hard. Yeah. And people are so shocked. when I say to clients in private practice, we talk about grief and it's not death, it's something else. Mm-hmm. but then I also think, you know, when we're children and we're not allowed to grieve things, that has a profound effect on us as well as well, you know, um, because we're not able to do, to do well when we're, where we're children's, our, our brains aren't formed to really experience and process things in the same way as an adult brain.

Mm-hmm. 

Merly: So I think that's why inner work, inner child work can be quite useful because it's allowing that, um, younger self to process some of what's happened as well, which, you know, has a, has a profound effect on the here and now. Um, yeah. Dunno if you can relate to that at all. 

Shell: Oh, absolutely. Yeah. No, I've done a little bit.

I, I, I look forward to doing a bit more. I'm doing some, um. A CA work, which is a 12 step program about adult children. Um, and, and it's very much about exactly that. And, you know, I can recognize when I've been in my inner teenager, which is, um, quite frequently. And I think, again, you know, the, the exciting thing, I hope that people listening can hear from both your voice and my voices, that we've both come from pretty shitty situations.

Not the most eloquent word, but from pretty crappy bottoms. And yet our journey of healing hasn't just been about like, oh man, I'm better. You know, it's, it's actually, it might not feel it at the time, but it's the most exciting. It's, you know, what do they say the best, the biggest work of art you'll ever work on is yourself or something like that.

At the time it might not feel like it. And trust me, even like last year when I was really struggling with perimenopause symptoms before getting my HRT, if somebody had said to me like, one day you're gonna love the learning that you're going through right now, I'd be like, I will fucking kill you. Um, but it is, it's being able to have a real gratitude for the horrible things 

Merly: that we've been through.

Yeah. Yeah. And you know, I, I guess this is a cliche thing, but you are, your experience experiences, they, they are, they build who you are, uh, as a person. So would you take those experiences away? Uh, completely. Would you? I, I mean, I mean that's sort for debate and I think it's, you know, very, I mean, from person to person, it would be different how people feel about the terrible experiences or difficult experiences.

But we, I mean, the reality is, is they do shape us into who we are today, be it that, you know, I mean, in a, in a beneficial way that resilience. The empathy, yeah. The ability to help others, the ability to connect with somebody else's pain, even though, you know, it does take a toll on me as it does you, I wouldn't have it any other way because, you know, I almost get off on being able to help somebody and, um, help them and facilitate their journey, you know, they're doing the work, but to watch them do the work is, is some, I mean, I just find that so rewarding, 

Shell: but help them, like you and I now do from our own place of strength, not help them and, and harm ourselves, which is very, uh, very pre 20.

2018, shell and Mely. 

Merly: Yeah, I think that's part the good. I mean the good, you know, with having therapeutic training as well, you know, I see more boundaries than other people and I think people are a bit taken back by that. I'm not, not my clients, but other people. You know what, and you, you have to be, in order to help, you have to be so boundaries.

Hundred percent. And I think, yeah, big light bulb. Yeah. And I think there's a lot of, um, which is incredible. There are a lot of hospitality professionals, um, training to be counselors, psychotherapists, and or being a helping position or have, you know, businesses like mine and yours. But really, um, I just don't want, you know, I, I want to advocate for them not burning out and really, you know, yeah.

Looking at those boundaries that they can put in. Yeah, 

Shell: definitely. I could talk to you forever. But the last question, um, we've kind of covered this, um, but I have been asking all of the guests, and I might regret this actually because I feel I end every session, my session session, I feel like end every session saying like, we've already covered this, but I'll ask it anyway.

Um, what does recovery mean to you? 

Merly: I think recovery means reclaiming 

Who you are, reclaiming your self-worth and reclaiming, um, what it means to be alive. I think that's it. Yeah.

Shell: That's beautiful. I love that. I'm gonna start a range of cushions with things like that one.

 That sounds really lovely. Oh, look, Meryl, absolutely delightfully delightful to speak to you. And um, as you said, I'll put all the links in the chat podcasts as well. You have got a podcast out already and I hope one day that you decide to go back to it because you've just got so much, so much to give.

Shell: Um, and yeah, I just really appreciate the time that you spent. Um, and yeah, invoice me for the therapy session that, that's only fair. But thank you so much for joining me today. That's okay.