We Recover Loudly – Personal Recovery and Mental Health Stories

S3 Episode 07 Glen Rowe: Recovering Loudly … Loud Music, Quiet Healing, and Rewriting the Rules

• Shell Righini • Season 3 • Episode 7

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In this passionate and deeply honest episode of We Recover Loudly, host Shell sits down with Glen Rowe: 32 years in the music industry and counting, legendary tour manager, mental health advocate, and founder of KYOTO Music and the charity KATO Trust.  Together they explore what it means to recover, reconnect, and reimagine an industry you’ve spent your life inside.

Glen shares his journey from obsessive teenage drummer to touring the world with Muse, Craig David, and countless others — building a career behind the scenes of music’s biggest stages. But alongside the success came personal sacrifice, burnout, and the quiet grief of a life always in motion. After heartbreak and a night that left him questioning his relationship with alcohol, Glen took a break… and stayed alcohol-free for 450 days, discovering clarity, therapy, and a renewed sense of freedom in the process.

Together, Shell and Glen unpack the changing landscape of the music industry, the importance of access for working-class talent, and the emotional toll of an identity built around work, chaos, and constant performance. They explore addiction, rage, EMDR therapy, and what happens when we stop numbing and start feeling.

Glen’s message is clear: recovery isn’t just for people who struggle from  addiction.  Recovery is about stepping into the life you were meant to live, fully awake, and on your own terms.

Whether you're in music, hospitality, or just trying to figure out who you are without the noise, this conversation is full of truth, grit, and hope.

CONNECT WITH GLEN:

@we_are_kato
@kyotomusicgroup
@kyotorowe

For more information on We Recover Loudly and to reach out for speaking engagements or support email hello@werecoverloudly.com

@werecoverloudly
www.werecoverloudly.com


Shell: Hello and welcome to this episode of We Recover Loudly. Today I am joined by the amazing Glenro founder of Kyoto. I'm hoping I'm saying that right, but, uh, I've practiced it four times and we're going with it, um, which is a music and arts management company, um, that he set up, um, giving artists time, space, and support to thrive.

Uh, he's got over 20 years experience in the music industry. He's toured the world with iconic acts like Muse, and he most recently was the, uh, tour director for Craig David's latest tour. Uh, he's also the founder of the charity Cato. Um, and that charity, uh, looks at teaching people, um, the skills to kind of work more behind the scenes in the music industry on the road.

Um, again, we'll probably hear much more about that. Um, but Glen's journey actually began selling merchandise, I believe, for the manic Street preachers. Um, he's toured with artists like the cos, um, and Amy McDonald, uh, he's a loving Amy McDonald. Where is she? Mm-hmm. Um, and Glen is also a passionate mental health advocate.

Um, and he is currently really working hard on creating a more supportive, sustainable music industry with his influence and with all the people he knows. And of course, this work we will also be discussing. But before all of that, Glen, how are you? 

Glen: I'm good. Wow. It's, it's always a, a funny thing to have what you've done in your life.

Read back to you. It's something I, I know. Yeah. It's, I guess something you get used to, but it's always funny. 

Shell: Well, you were just sharing that you never Google yourself and I thought, haha. Well, you just bloody wait till you hear this bio. 

Glen: It was quite wild thinking. Okay. Yeah, I did do that. Oh yeah, I've done that.

Oh yeah, I forgot that. Oh, no. I think that's what keeps me happy in life is, uh, sometimes being forgetful is actually not a bad thing. You don't get too hard. Yeah. 

Shell: Selective memory, I think sometimes, um, when you have to go kind of back through your career, it's, well, it kind of makes you go, but hang on a minute, I'm only 18 mentally.

How would I have done all of these things? That makes no sense. So since we've already looked back, let's look back even further, Glen, there's a little, a little wi lad. Um, was music always your passion? Was that what you wanted to work in from the very beginning? 

Glen: Yeah, I think, uh, having blinkered ambition as a, as a young kid, I, I, I remember my older brother showing me, um, the who documentary the kids were All right.

And at that point I saw Keith Moon flailing his arms around and playing drums that didn't seem like drum, it didn't seem like he was ca into drums. It just seemed like he was just hitting anything whenever he wanted. And I wanted to understand that. And then, and an instant love affair of drums. Became my lifelong obsession.

Literally, I remember, I remember the moment, I remember sitting in my mom and dad's living room, I remember the, the, the shitty TV um, and I remember, I, I remember everything about it and yeah, that young boy was blinkered and still is. I just have 

Shell: that like emotional connection straight away.

Glen: Yeah. I remember a as, um, I can't remember how old you are when you go, when, how old are you when you get those options in your life? Where you're going to at school, you what GSEs you gonna take, what path in life you're gonna take. Oh 

Shell: yeah. Like the grand age of 13, 14. Better not fucking make a mistake 'cause that'll come back to haunt you.

Glen: Yeah, yeah, exactly. Yeah. That, that, that one I remember really, uh, really fondly the, the funny moment of a careers advisor coming in telling me, oh, well, you know, you. You're doing well in, you know, okay, what have you done? You're doing well in art. Okay, we'd like to do, maybe you should do, you know, maybe a graphic designer.

I said, I've got two ambitions. Number one, I never wanna wear a tie again. And I, and I turned my tie like that as a NOIs and said, 'cause this is, this is just strangles uh, creativity. And I remember, remember her laughing? I thought, oh, that's quite, you know, 'cause she was at that point just very.to do. And I said, the other one is, I, I want to have the right not to tuck my shirt in.

And that, and those were the, and that was it. They, I had two ambitions and it was, they were basic around fashion. So I didn't want be, and I've ne, and you know what? I've never worn a tie since. I didn't even wear a tie at my, my, uh, wedding. 

Ended in divorce, but I've, I've stuck to that mantra.

And, uh, I, I do tuck a shirt in every now and then, then. 

Shell: I just love though that, that even at such a young age that you clearly had that kind of rebellious spirit and to have that rebellious spirit, you've probably gotta have quite a strong sense of self, even at kind of a young age. And, you know, you are a really snap you talking about fashion, you've got a lovely individual style and that, and we talk about a identity quite a lot on this podcast.

Normally the opposite though, you know, struggling to find identity and stuff. I mean, what was identity like for you as a young, a young wannabe drummer that, was that something that you felt very strong in or is it something that's been more of a, a journey as you've got an older 

Glen: Uh, great question. I, I think I've always, because I think being OCD and A DHD and although, you know, if it's free, I'll, I'll, I'll have it.

And anything like that come in my way. I think my outlook has always been very artistic. I think my mum was a florist. I grew up with her visions of, you know, and design. And she liked, and I remember I'd walk into her flower shop and sometimes you walk into her flower shop and it was completely different to the day before.

Like what? And she just moved everything around. So, and I, and our house, sometimes I'd come in, go to throw my school bag on the sofa and watch my, and it wasn't, so there was no sofa there. You just do everything around again. I'm like, and so I, I think having a, a very artistic mum figure in, in life was really good for the fact that I take, I, I really like eye catching things.

I like to see where quirky, I like the quirkiness of life. I, I enjoy parallel lines, but I love a squiggle in between. Mm-hmm. It's that thing of, and so the sense of identity, I think I. I had a strong sense of identity growing up with two older brothers who were mods and, you know, they're, and they're vespas and, and I, I saw that they would dress, you know, how they would dress, and they took it all very seriously.

And at that time, I didn't give a shit. And I was in, I got into punk rock and heavy metal. And then I realized that actually, yeah, this, the sense of identity is massive. 

Mm. Because 

Glen: you, when you listen to growing up in, in the eighties and nineties, you, you grew up and, and you felt you belonged to, to tribes.

And I, and I, I, I've talked about this so much, it's like, it's so funny. Do you remember the I'm, I'm, I'm 51, right. And I, um, when I, when I was grown up, I would walk into pubs and I could quickly take a glance around the room and see the goths mm-hmm. And the difference between the goths, you know, the fields of the Nevol fans and the mission, and tell the difference that and the Cure fan because there was a slight dress difference.

And then the people are into grunge and the people are into punk and the people are into rave. And there was this tribalism of, of sets of what, how they dressed as how you dress was what music you listened to. Mm. So I think I grew up in an amazing period of time where that was really, really important to nail down your identity, to show everybody what you're into, what you listened to.

And 

yeah, 

Glen: I think it's that thing of, I think nowadays I watch, um, because I'm obsessed with watching young people coming up in art and music and, and I, and I struggle to think. Because everything's online these days. They load of people just dress the same. So some individuality is, goes, goes a long way.

And when I, sometimes I drive past young kids who are punk rockers or skaters. When I see skaters I get so excited like, oh God, there's a, there's, there's, there's a creative fuck bunch of kids. And I, and I get exci, I, I get really excited by seeing people who are, who are bravely wearing their, their freak flag.

Shell: Mm. Oh my goodness. It's so funny. Like, I do think that I can't, and I hate the fact that I sound like one of these old people already, but I guess I am old. But I do think that, you know, we have that, we were kind of lucky in a way. We definitely had this quite. Definite subculture and, and community and ability to kind of find that tribe because of music Growing up, um, I was, um, obsessed with Britpop.

Um, so I would've been 13, kind of 14 when that was exploding. And, um, and by Britpop I don't mean like, you know, Oasis blur, I mean like the obscure bands. I was obsessed with a band called Men's Wear, who you may remember. 

It wasn't a men's wear. 

Shell: Oh my God. I just was honestly, I even got the fanzine, which was like, you know, like through the post, um, you know, and, and Echo Belly.

I loved them and it was such a, it was such, um, a comfort for me as a teenager who couldn't quite find their way academically who didn't quite fit in. You know, hashtag neurodivergent later on. Um, and music was such a gift, and I dunno, sometimes I wonder if the, the kids miss out a little bit on that these days.

Um, because it's not as. You know, because I felt like I had a home. 

Yeah. 

Shell: With these bands and these people, without even knowing them because of that northern uproar, I still love them too. 

Right? Yeah. Yeah. 

Shell: Do you remember the Shine compilations? 

Glen: Of course. Yeah. Yeah. That 

Shell: was it. Oh my God. The memory, your memory of the drumming is my memory of going to WH Smith in Droitwich and getting the shine compilation.

Wow. When it would come out like 6, 7, 8, and it was just, and they probably about got like 20 quid back then or 

Glen: something ridiculous. Yeah. No, I think I about They were probably a tenor, weren't they? They weren't, they weren't being ripped off by it. I, I 

Shell: feel like they were hefty fair for me. Oh, were they?

But then, to be fair, I was like 13, so yeah, that would've been like 10 weeks pocket money. 

Glen: Exactly. Head of. Where, where you felt that identity and where it miss where, where it's missing now is people are real schizophrenic listeners. And I, when I talk to, you know, I, I interact and talk to younger people, I always get fascinated by when I say that one simple question, oh, so what music do you listen to?

And me and you would say, yeah, punk, Brit pop, you know, we would have 

Shell: Iny folk right now 'cause I'm an old person. Yeah. 

Glen: My favorite bands still are The Cure. You know, it, they're, they're my post on a wall as a kid band I still love. And when I talk to Young p they, they say, oh, I, I listen to a bit of everything.

Hmm. And because they listen to Rat Manam off or, or, or, um, you know, uh, grime or hip hop or what, whatever, because they listen to, they do listen to so much stuff. I haven't got one thing that they really, really love. Mm. Whereas we found that thing of that comfort you. You made me think of, oh, I could start smelling those venues from the nineties, like the garage where I'd go and see all those indie bands that you talked about and that The Astoria and all those, all those early venues that we'd go and play shows at.

And I can smell, I can smell that nostalgia. Now just thinking about what you described of that sense of belonging in those, with those little bands who, who, who changed their lives, right. 

Shell: They really, really did. And, and again, you know, it's, I dunno, I sometimes think like, is it, yeah, I guess, well I'd be interested to know what you think because I, I swing between the two of, is it brilliant that someone who listens to Grime also listens to Taylor Swift or, you know, because it's, it's a, it's a rounded, maybe rounded, um, you know, its exposure to such different, not just different music styles.

Because when you listen to a different music style, you're exposed to a whole different community, you know, and that gives you, you know, a Taylor Swift listener can then maybe have an understanding of the type of music like grime music and its history and, you know, does that create connection therefore, versus separation and distance?

Or is it a bit of a shame that it's become a bit of a, like murky puddle? Yeah. What, what do you think? Because I really don't know. I swing, 

Glen: I, I, I think emotionally I think it's a bad thing. 'cause the, a murky puddle. It's not a great place, is it? It's that thing of you. I dunno, I think it creates lifelong friendships.

Um, I, I became best friend with Paul, my, you know, my best friend because I worked in a record shop in Kingston and he was a customer and he came in and in what we'd, what we'd do, we, everyone who worked there, we'd have our album of the week and we'd put our recommended album of the week and it'd say Glen on, you know, on the record.

Love it. Say, people come in and say, oh yeah, Glen, I see you. Like, you know that, that record. What's it like? And I would turn it and I would, I'd say, hi. And I'd say, look, I'll put it on for you. So I'd put on, so a perfect example, an amazing band from Halifax in Canada called Sloan. They had, uh, a, a record called Under, um, it's got underwhelmed, can't remember album's got underwhelmed.

But I remember as I, I knew my, I knew this customer, Paul, 'cause he, we, we'd buy a lot of the same sort set, set a lot of the same records. And I knew that as I put the, the record on and I came around the back from putting it on as it started, I knew he'd have a smile on his face. 

Shell: Mm. And and 

Glen: then we became, it is he, trust me, he liked my records.

And, and then it's, you know, it's an odd thing to be a guy, ask another guy out to go out for a, a drink or go to a gig or something, but, 

Shell: mm, 

Glen: we just were like, I've got some tickets to go and see a band that we both liked. So we went know, so get free tickets back in those days. And, and then you bond of, oh my God, you like that?

Oh my God, you like that? And then I, I don't wanna say we were boxed in, but we, we, the boundaries were really set of, we were, we would like all the same sort of guitar noisy bands. So we, we, that was our, that was our thing. And then we go. When you go to the concerts, you meet other people who like that same thing.

And that's why Yeah. Live music, for me, it it that it's the, it's, it's the top of the pyramid. It's when you're in a room, uh, surrounded by people who love that same act as much as you do, you've all got that commonality. 

Mm-hmm. 

Glen: Whereas, whereas music, listening of a new record is quite singular and you can put your, you know, put your earbuds in and you can be lost, but you're not sharing.

Whereas a sound of a, of a, a loud pa and the lights and the videos and the way everything moves, I think is, I think I, I know we, we all take concerts for granted, but I still think they're magical. 

Shell: They really are. And it's, it's, gosh, it's so much that, that you've just said that. It's just, I wanna talk about pick something.

Um, you know, like I. It's strange because we live in this world where there's so much conversation about lack of connection. You know? Um, we're not, not addiction, not gonna start talking about addiction now, but the, the phrase addiction is the opposite of connection. There's a lot of commonality between, um, not, not just drug and alcohol addiction, social media, sex shopping, all of that.

And yet the way you were describing, you know, music, you know, that really was such a powerful connecting thing for me in my life. And, and you are right, because I would make mixed tapes for friends and, you know, you know, the mix tape, the magic of a mixed tape. And even, but now, even now. My music choices.

So I used to listen to bands because somebody would recommend it. They'd know I'd like it. Like you say, like, I can't wait for you to hear this band. I've discovered you're gonna die dah dah la. Now I get my music recomme recommendations from Spot a Spotify algorithm. And I'm not trying to be a bitch because I, I love my Spotify algorithm because frequently it'll blow my mind.

So, you know, it's no shade. But I couldn't tell you, I literally couldn't tell you the last time somebody recommended a band that I would like, that knew me, that I can't even, and, and vice versa. I can't remember the last time I recommended a band to somebody. Now that's sad because how do we discover these lovely bands the way that we used to?

Glen: Yeah. Yeah. I mean, ba I mean, bands are a dying breed anyway. It, it's, um, new young guitar bands are difficult to, to find. I think the la, I mean the last band that made me feel like a teenager. Who are a young band are, um, from Washington, I think. I think they're from Washington, but they're called Turnstile.

Mm-hmm. Oh my God. When, when I heard them, I was, I was 19 again. I was, I, I shut, all of my senses were shut down and I was almost, it sounds a little bit embarrassing, but I was almost paralyzed by the excitement of it. And, uh, I, I can send you a link for, for what? You know, the, the thing that changed me. Yeah.

And then all of a sudden I thought, oh my God, this is God. This feeling is amazing, isn't it? Of they, they sound like a cross between rage against the machine. Um, Beastie Boys, Jane's Addiction, they've kind of got this really 

Shell: gritty, 

Glen: gritty gar, it, it's, it's fucking amazing. They, they released an album. Uh, called Glow on, and I think it's one of the best albums ever made.

So they're, they're like a young, that's so cool. I say a young band now. They, they've certainly about three albums, but no one really knows who they are yet. They haven't broken through, but apart from, apart from them, I, I found some bands I really like, but none that really move me, like turns start. Hmm.

Shell: And 

Glen: I'm permanently looking out for, for artists. 

Shell: Yeah. Yeah. No, look. Of course. And I think it's, it's interesting as well, like not to kind of get too into the whole class conversation, but the, the what the, you know, that young, youthful, dirty, gritty probably met and play in a garage, you know, that kind of, um, origin story versus, um, I, there was a meme or a picture the other day on Instagram, um, of the, the Brit Award winners.

And like all of them were like from private schooling, you know, and, and it, there was the, the conversation being, you know, what's happened to the music industry, it's dominated by the upper classes. And, um, was it the, the last dinner party? Um, you know, I, I, I actually think their music is quite good. You know, I am, they again, thank you Spotify algorithm.

Um, and I wouldn't have heard of them otherwise. Um, but I was quite surprised to actually read like, like all of the winners, like Charlie Xxs. Yes. Did I give that the right letters? Yes. That when you show your age, when you don't know which way round the X and the C is, um, you know, and, um, I dunno, do you, you, is, is there a division, you know, well you are more at the ground level, you know, are you finding that there, that that is art no longer and, and creativity are we no longer be able to sustain it, you know, the lower the middle, the working class?

Is that why there's this divide or 

Glen: Yeah, yeah. You're, I mean, Sam Fender, God bless him, uh, said something very similar. He said that it's not affordable anymore to be in a band. And, and he's, you know what? He's right. It, 

Shell: yeah. 

Glen: For you to, to rent a rehearsal room to be able to make, you know, that has a drum kit, guitar amps, and a pa, it's really expensive because the infrastructure, just to build that and to pay the business rates and to do that is really.

Really high. You know, I own, in fact, I'm talking to you now from SW 19 studios and this is our rehearsal studio complex in, in, in Wimbledon. And we have the biggest bands in the world come here. I mean, literally the, I mean, queen Adele Stormy, you know, they'll come here, right? But, they can afford it.

'cause this is really expensive. But to be a young band and to come in to, to go and do those things, the cost is crazy. And record companies, it's actually, they're, they're the ones to blame. 'cause they're not investing money like they used to. They would, before you got signed, you know, they'd always be, oh my god, got record deal.

They would be on a, a development deal for a few months where the record company would say, well, we like your band, but we're not gonna, we're not ready to sign you yet. We want to see how you develop. And they would give them some, they would give them seeding money to say, okay, well go and do some more rehearsals.

Go and do some more recordings. Let's listen to. So they were allowed to sort of make their own way musically and artist Interesting. Define their voice. And nowadays it's record labels are on the, on the whole and on. You know, I've gotta be careful because I've got a lot of friends in the music industry, in the record industry.

But on the whole, the new thing is, well, they just wait for you to blow up yourself. Mm-hmm. So they, so they watch statistics and numbers. I remember being really heartbroken when a major label bought, uh, an algorithm def, um, no definer, so mm-hmm. They, so the a and r people can be just sit there and press a button and it shows all the statistics of all the, all the artists of how many numbers they've got.

What's their streaming profile like, how many followers have they got? What are real people and what are real bots? What's a percentage of followers to who, who are reactive? I'm like, fuck, you know, this is music. Music is art. Art is, and what one person loves, another person hates. That's the point of art.

If everybody like it, it's, it's shit. And that's what Turgid crap comes out of, of, uh, of the charts now because a lot of it is based on the same music. Mm-hmm. They're called BMWs or what? The, the music platforms they make records on. They're, they, they use, they use mainly the same things. So there's one called, it's called Fruity Loops.

I can't remember what it's called now, but I think it was FL Studios and, and loads of art, loads of ma loads of music makers are making records on, on that same interface with the same sounds. So when I say music does sound very similar now Mm, I've got backup and evidence to prove it. Why I'm saying that, I'm not just saying, oh no, no.

Back in the the Britpop days, it was great. 'cause Britpop sounded, a lot of, acts sounded like, oh, it all 

Shell: sounded, they all sounded the same. That's why I love it. It's 

Glen: always a bit something, is it, but, and at the moment, that's where we're stuck in this, this trap of, of, of digital music creating platforms where everything sounds similar.

And then record companies who aren't saying, well, where is the new Gaga? Where is the new Foo Fighters? Where, where are they? I, I, mm-hmm. I, I have a lifetime obsession of, of reading Festival. Right. I've been, I've been going to Reading Festival since the, I think 1989. I think I went for the first. Whoa.

Shell: That's amazing. 

Glen: I've been almost every year. Not that I've missed a few on that way. And when, when Muse headlined reading, that was a, like a dream comes iconic. 

Shell: Yeah. 

Glen: And my, you know, my, my children are 17 and 13 now. And, and so they want to see what, and I have panics of who the fuck is gonna headline red, who are the, where are the bands?

Where are those people? Where's that, where's that tribalism? And I go there and, and as I, every year I go, I think, wow, it's really changing the music industry. This is. You know this. This is the music industry's last. Uh, last, last chance to really kind of make people feel evolved. And now you've got splinter festivals.

Mm. That 

Glen: have to be more specialist because they don't want ev they don't want everybody coming to the festival. They want music lovers of that genre of music. So 

Shell: yeah. It's, it's so interesting 'cause you know, like, um, I, uh, Glastonbury recently announced, or not recently, but it announced its headliner. Um, I can't think who it is now this year because it was so disappointing.

I've erased it from my brain. Um, it's something like Kylie Ogle someone like, or like, it is somebody ridiculous. It's probably not Kylie. Um, you know, and, and seeing, I mean like when I grew up. And desperately wanted to go to all of these festivals. Like you say, it was like, I knew to go to Redding and Leeds because it was gonna be rock driven.

Um, whether that be it, it was always a bit kind of heavier, you know? Yeah. Glastonbury was always gonna be a bit more kind of older, and whereas, like you say now, it just, it's back to that murky puddle. Um, and it does feel like a shame in a way to, but maybe, yeah. But then maybe we are just old. Maybe the kids are like, shut up, shell, I wanna hear a guitar band, and then I wanna hear Kylie.

You know, that's, that's how I wanna live my life. A little bit of this, a little bit of that, you know,

Glen: no, a little, a little bit of this, a little bit of that is okay, but it doesn't, it doesn't form passion. Mm. But it doesn't, you know, liking. I, I remember, I remember, oh God, I can't remember who said it.

Oh, it was my friend Wendy said, um, when she looked at her son for the first time. She said, I, I felt love. Like I've never felt loved before. Then I felt really stupid for saying I love chocolate because I like, I don't love chocolate. I like chocolate. I'm in love with my child. And I, I've, I've, and that, those, those words she said have wrapped around my head for God.

He's 25 now. So for 25 years of thinking, that's the difference in life of you can like something and then when you love it, it's a different, different thing. Mm. I'm, I'm a 51-year-old lover of guitar music. 

Mm. 

Glen: And I, and I'm, and I'm happy with that. And if, and I, yes, of course I listen to loads of other things as well, but when someone says what music you listen to, it's, it's a very quick, simple answer because I want to make sure, like we talked about on your first question, about your identity.

That's my identity. 

Mm-hmm. I want, 

Glen: I, I love loud, distorted, discordant guitar bands. 

Shell: Yeah. Whereas I suppose if you were to ask. A younger person now that love it would be, yeah, I love X music. You know, in the same way that they love chocolate, like you say, it's that loss of passion, which sadly, when you lose the passion, that's also then the drive to make the music industry or to continue to improve the music industry.

It's, there's a lot of parallels and. I'd love to talk about more about your work 'cause there's so many parallels between the hospitality industry and the music industry. I've had quite a few guests on that have actually worked in both. And, and again, you know, where we are now currently with the hospitality industry is that we are lacking in people who have a passion to be in it.

Yeah. And it's just become very much a, well, it's a job. It's no longer a career because it's, it's, it doesn't pay great. And, you know, physically it's, it's a very demanding job. Much like the music industry. You've obviously got all the mental health stuff as well, much like the music industry, nevermind the addiction stuff.

And, um, and it's just, it's making it a very hard industry to be a sustainable one because of that. And, you know, I mean, what's it like for you guys working in the music industry now and seeing kind of how it's evolved or unevolved? 

Glen: Yeah. We, throughout this yesterday, in fact, it's kind of one of the permanent conversation points is.

There's a, there's a, we're, we've got a generation of people on trying to help them get their, make, make their way in the, the life side of the music industry. And, and I keep saying to them, it, it doesn't come without a lot of sacrifice. I missed best friends, weddings, birthday, big birthday parties, funerals of family.

I, I, I had to miss that because I was following my career path of I love live music and I'm only gonna work in live music. I put those, like, as you know, I put those blinkers on a, as a young kid and live music was, has always been my driver. 

Shell: Mm-hmm. 

Glen: And there is a, a generation, and I dunno if it's from COVID or I dunno what, what's happened, but, and I don't wanna sound like an old guy who's, and, you know, young kids, dunno what it's like anymore.

But my point is I do regularly when I, when, so the Craig David tour, you. That would be a 16 or 18 hour day every day. Mm-hmm. And, and we took some young people on, on, um, because I always like to give some new people some, some chances. I, I took a couple of young people out who'd never and wanted, wanted, worked in the film industry.

So she was used to long hours and one had done a bit of touring, but not, uh, outside the u sorry, outside of her country. And the two of them were exhausted on day one. And then I said, it is okay, weirdly, you get used to it. And then by the end of the tour, they, they, they'd gotten through that psyche of, oh yeah, it's just, it's just how it is.

And, and remember, I'd see their footsteps and they'd done like 32,000 steps and no wonder, so I said, no wonder you're tired. Look how fast. Yeah. How far you've walked today. And she's like. It's blowing my mind. And every day it was 25 to 35,000 steps. And I said, but isn't it great? Yes, you are working hard.

Yes, you are tired, but isn't it great? And both of them said unequivocally. It, it's literally the best thing I've ever done because it's hard work. 

Shell: Mm-hmm. 

Glen: But team, you, you, it's the the morale of being part of something. Yes. They weren't the pop star. They, they know, they, they're not Craig David who went on stage and performed.

Shell: Did they even know who Craig David is? I, I mean that, it's so sad. These youth, these youth, did they know the legend of Craig David? 

Glen: Well, the weird legend of Craig David is he is now, he's now stepped over a, a line that a lot of people don't know exists. Of the front row of Craig David shows is 16, 18-year-old girls.

He's literally cross generation and it's amazing. So that's so good. You have kids who grew up listening to Craig, David's songs are going to concerts with their parents. Yeah. Because the parents probably bought the tickets, you know, and they're down the front and they're all singing their heart's out and having the best time.

'cause he is, I love that. The single almost incredible performer who, who by the way, I, uh, trade. No, not trade secret, but I can tell you he never dials it in. Yeah. I've a lot of unbelievable artists in my life and Craig is, is up there with the most unbelievable work ethic that he, that that man goes on stage and he fucking delivers people who aren't into that sort of music come back.

You know, I, I get 'em tickets and they come and see it and Arthur's like, I've never seen anything like it. 

Shell: Yeah, he didn't 

Glen: stop. Then I'm like, I know the guy's a fucking machine. He, he links. For nothing else but to be on stage. So that's why I love working with him, because I love nothing more than putting him on stage because Yeah.

Yeah. And the teamwork that goes, uh, and I remember the statistic when Muse, when we did, uh, Emirate Stadium on the, um, the first, no, the second law tour. I remember the, the, the, the rough numbers were, I had three band members, but had 300 crew. And you think, wow. 300 people put that show on for three people.

And that, that dynamic is, is is kind of incredible when you think about what goes into, uh, a, a, you know, a stadium show. Yeah. You've got to bring in the, you know, got to cover the football pitch. You've gotta bring cranes in, you've got to bring Yeah. You know, every, it, it's massive machinery. It's not just, oh yeah.

You wheel staging. And people never quite understand the complexes of what goes into. Putting on those large events. And just because you don't want to, you don't wanna be the pop star. There's loads of these amazing jobs that, that support those pop stars. 

Shell: Oh, that's, it's so funny. Well, funny. It's just kind of mind blowing to think, you know, like you think of Muse, you know, the three guys just like, you know, in their little garage and their little house, whatever, just plucking away.

And then like, you know, that the machine, like you say that because I mean, muse are renowned for their live shows. I mean, like, they're absolutely phenomenally, um, well respected for that. And, um, yeah. Gosh, isn't that crazy? And like you say, it's, well, it's interesting actually. I think a couple of things that I really pick up on is, I'm gonna have to put a little age warning on this, that this episode is too old people moaning.

When you were talking about working and it's like that, the physicality. And that's one of the reasons I used to love, um, my roles in hospitality was feeling like I'd done a good day's work in my jo in my, but you know, all of that. And yeah. And, and, and I think we miss out on that a lot for the youth. The youth, um, because we don't have the industry, um, jobs that we used to have.

We don't have, you know, the manufacturing, we don't have all of those kind of roles that we would've had in the eighties and the nineties. And, and I think it's a real shame because I think a lot of people like myself who are neurodivergent, um, that's where we thrive in the roles that do require some kind of that physicality.

Because me, now, I sit at a desk and I, I, I'm constantly getting up, moving around. I'll move a sofa, I'll move a this, you know, I, I, that's one of the reasons I know that I can't focus very well on singular tasks 'cause I get bored. Whereas in hospitality, when I was working, I had to have 8,000 things going on because of like the venue.

Absolutely fantastic. Ask me to sit down and do one task. Can't do it. Absolutely all. And I think it's a bit of a shame, isn't it? I think that our, our, our young people are missing out in that respect, aren't they? 

Glen: Yeah. It's funny. I say the same thing. I can spin 11 plates and never drop one, gimme one. I'm pulled outta my fucking mind.

Shell: Smash it just for something to happen. 

Glen: Like I just tried to balance it for shits and giggles and think it's, there's, there's nothing in this for me. And I think if younger people who want, 'cause I think the, the magic of where we are now though, and what I'm hoping we're achieving, and we, I'm sorry I'm not, I should, I should pick myself up.

What we are achieving with our charity is definitely we're giving younger people those gateway opportunities to try those things. And then, and what I'm seeing time and time again is that when they, when they get the opportunity, they are fucking brilliant at it. So even though we are two old people, moaning.

There's a positive spin, which is, you know, when they do do it, oh my God, they, they love it. Because like you've said, they, at the end of the day when their body's ache, they realize they've had a good day's work and they've got, they, they've got stories and memories forever that the girl, oh my god. Uh, eda, who, well, I, I discu.

So Craig David did a, a lot of shows in Denmark last year, and we, you always get like a, a, a backstage coordinator, artist liaison person. And I, you know, on the first, first day we got there and, okay, so this girl EDA turns up and she's a young girl, can I help you with anything? Yeah. Okay. And she does, does that, I'm thinking, oh, she was, you know, she was really helpful.

And then the next week we went back to this same festival, another fest, the festival traveled around Denmark, and then, and I had her again. I was like, oh, you know, you, you're looking after us. And she's like, no, no, I'm looking after all of them. She was looking after 22 acts. At a festival on her own. I thought, fucking hell, she's got, she made me and my team feel like we were the people that she was looking after, but getting that she had 22 other people just the same.

So that, that's why I wanted to give her. And so it's, that thing had been in a nice position where I was lucky enough to say, you've got amazing talent. Come on, come on tour with us and let's nurture you into those things. So, and she and my God, she killed it. She absolutely killed it. And I think she'll have an amazing career for ama amazing amounts of money because she's got those skill sets.

Shell: Yeah. And again, it's like, it's a role that you don't think about. We don't necessarily, well, I am assuming we don't because we didn't when I was growing up. But, um, you know, we don't talk about that, those roles in the industry. Yeah. Which again, I know is something that you were just so passionate about is, you know, what the company kind of focuses on.

It's like, like you said, you know, okay, so maybe you're not gonna be the next, um, uh, lady Gaga, however tho or the, or Muse, but those 300 people that are in the background doing all of that, I mean, the role that you just described that the, that the lady had is like, that's a hospitality role through and through.

That's, you know, it's all about relationships and connection and, you know, service and, and that's a wonderful and travel the world. Like what a great aspiration, but. Again, we don't necessarily encourage that, do 

Glen: we? No, no, no one knows No. That, that's why with we're Cato are, are, you know, we are, we are in a field of our own and we, we carry on and we've now brought in over a thousand people into the live side of the music industry and we're like, it's great now.

And I walk around and I bump into people. They're doing really well and it, and it's lovely to know that we did our small part to give them, you know, the, I always say to them that I don't know what that thing's called in the pinball game when you pull, pull back the thing and fire it. That's what, that's what we did and we just Yeah.

You know, set them, send them off around, let them ping around the, the, the ping pong, uh, the pinball table and enjoy what life throws at 'em because it, it's a magical journey of, like you say, you get paid to travel around the world all the time. 

Shell: Yeah. It's so cool. 

Glen: And make, I think the thing that always kind of always gets me is.

We were a small part of making a big show happen. 

Mm. And 

Glen: everybody who leaves is happy. 

Mm. 

Glen: 99.99, nine 9%. You always sound grumpy. Old cunt who's pissed off about something. But that's life, isn't it? But it, and I, I often get asked about what's, you know, where, what's the, the difference between sport and music?

I say, well, it's really simple. 50% of people who go to watch sport are disappointed. 

That's so true. 

Glen: Their team are gonna lose, right? Yeah. 100% of people come out of a concert happy, so there's no competition. Oh my God. Yeah. Music wins all day, every day. 

Shell: Oh my God, that's such a great way of thinking about it.

And I think, you know, again, you know, this podcast is about recovery, recovering from life setbacks, recovering from, you know, all sorts of stuff. Um, and the way, you know, the small little window of the world that I work in that's trying to impact, um, initially, you know, the hospitality industry and other thing, you know, again, it's the work that you are doing.

It's not that you are, you know, recovering the music industry, but it's that really important work to like, continue to improve, which I just think is so vital. We need these industries because we aren't all tech superheroes and we aren't all, um, I dunno, I dunno, any other jobs now we, not all, um, you know, Pam pushers and accountants and things like that.

It's, it's so vital because I think the danger is, is that we're gonna end up with. A load. A load, a whole lost generation because we're not creating roles that they can thrive in because it's just not who they are. And that's when we get into, look at my tenuous link. That's when we get into trouble with mental health.

Yeah. Addiction. I mean, we are seeing more and more and more, um, challenges with young people with mental health. I mean, great that we're having the conversation as well. You know, gambling addiction is a huge thing. I was reading recently that ketamine is now a big thing with young people. I mean, I thought we, I mean I thought we'd finished that in the early two, two thousands, but it's back to being like the thing with young people.

Um, and I mean, I'm sure you've also experienced that a lot within the industry. And here's the ultimate tenuous link. You've recently also decided to just have a little time off alcohol, which I just think is amazing. Huge advocate of just going, I'm gonna take a month, I'm gonna take two, three. I mean, what drove you to make that decision?

Glen: Well, that was, um, God, there's so many good points in that. Uh, okay. Number one. I did the classic thing of talking about recovery. Recovery is, is such a great word because it, it describes so many different things, isn't it? And Mm, I was recovering from heartbreak. I had, uh, been in a relationship and, um, we, we, uh, we, you know, the relationship ended and it was, it, it broke my heart and did what everybody else does and hit, you know, got drunk all too much and did those things.

Shell: Painkiller. It's a painkiller. 

Glen: Painkiller. And then we took all the Christmas, uh, team out for, sorry, the staff out for Christmas drinks. And I got so drunk that one of my lovely, one of my oldest friends who works with us, walked me home to make sure I got home. I. I mean, that's embarrassing. He said, first of all, I walked, I walked out of the bar and a bicycle hit me.

Oh my God. In fell off his bike. And apparently I didn't even notice it. I was like, oh, sorry mate. It carried on. I was that drunk. I was paralytic. So the next day I woke up to see a, uh, a glass of water that I'd never use for. And I was like, what the fuck? And then I had to do the phone call of shame, and then, um, I just, I just thought, this is this, this is something, this is, this is really, really, really stupid.

And then the next day was, um, Chris, the, uh, Chris Warten home, the bass player from Muse. It was his birthday party the next day. So, so I went to his party. Um, it was, you know, a lovely restaurant and I had one beer, and boom, I was like, okay. Oh, I'm back in the game, you know? Mm-hmm. Yeah. Yeah. Okay. Right. Okay.

And then, then it hit me. Oh, okay. Now. Now, I may be taking this a bit too far if 

Mm, 

Glen: I was so fucked up last night that tonight one beer has given me the, the, the solid beer buzz that three or four should give you. That's, that's a bad thing. And I decided I was gonna take some time out, uh, a week, a month, then three months.

Then next time I'm like, okay, well I'll do a year. And then, and what got better and what I can comfortably say, it was one of the best things I've ever done. I did 450 days of 

Shell: amazing, 

Glen: absolutely nothing because I wanted to see if everyone, if there, if everything I heard was true. And it is, the compound interest gets better and better and better and better to the point of, I, I almost now think, God, we are stupid having, having a drink.

It is, no, it is poison and what is the point? But I. Sometimes you, you know, I, I never had a problem with addiction. I've never been, I'm very, very, very lucky. Um, probably the only thing I'm addicted to is probably work. Is, is, is yeah. There's never, I've ne and I've, you know, that everything about numbing the pain, I've never really been a big in, um, advocate of it.

And alcohol was just that thing of, and giving it up. One of the things I loved was the respect I got from my kids. 

Mm-hmm. 

Glen: They were, they saw me in a, you know, because obviously Isaac was a of, of an age where he was developing an interest of, of alcohol. And my little, my little one was just watching me being always on it and always being clearheaded and clear minded and my moods didn't change.

And, and with that, I sought to go and get, um, some, uh, I've got, got therapy. 

Mm. And 

Glen: it changed my life. It being clear-minded and then how, and then going into something like, uh oh, I did, have you heard of EMDR therapy? 

Shell: Oh, I have. I actually started it, uh, not that long ago. And yes, uh, it was I through the NHS, so it was a little bit of a long waiting list, but I've finally got to the top.

So I've had a, I've had a few sessions and it's quite mind blowing. Uh, literally, 

Glen: yeah. It, it, it changed my life. Mm-hmm. And, um, Kim Bradshaw, who I couldn't recommend more, she's like, she, I dunno what she did to me, but by moving three fingers around, slowly changed my entire life, my outlook on life, my, my desires of what I wanted to change, and things that, things I found out about me that I didn't know.

I grew up with a very abusive father 

in 

Glen: the classic, in a, in the classic, you know, he, you know, he was very, he was a very physical. Um, dad and I realized that the, the protection I had from my mom, um, you know, I'd always trying to protect my mom 'cause I could see what was going on. And in, in tho in those year early ages, they, they really do define and who you are and, and what you stand for.

And I had no idea that I'd been carrying around all this anger and this, this stuff. And, and when, when Kim said to me something so simple, she said, yeah, we're gonna do send MDR r with you because you are really angry. I said, I'm 

fucking 

Glen: angry. I said, I'm not angry. What's the fucking 

angry Kim? 

Glen: He was that thing of, I said, if you lined up classic people who knew me and said, give them a pen and paper, and they, they write five words to describe me, anger wouldn't beat any of them.

And she said, yeah, no, of course you, I love how 

Shell: you really pushed that point into her, like, see him. 

Glen: And, and she said, that's because you don't know your angry, I mean mm-hmm. Oh, and then she's right that the trauma of a, of an abusive father. Um, I had, I had massive trauma and I witnessed some unimaginable things in my life and I, I buried it because that's what you do with trauma.

But she said to me, trauma's, this, this can of Coke. And you can see the ingredients really clearly when it's like this, but we squash it, but the ingredients still there. It can, everything's there. It's still the same. Yeah. 

So 

Glen: tr so therapy is to pull it out and be able to reread it again. Understand that's what it is, and then you're okay.

You can move forward. 

Shell: I love that. What a, a cool, it was 

Glen: amazing. This woman was, oh my god. Life complete, life changing. Yeah. And the re the road to recovery for me on, on my journey has been amazing. The fact that. No alcohol meant I was making clear decisions for the right decisions. Mm-hmm. I was, I wasn't being swayed by anything else.

I was, I was enjoying going out to dinner and drinks and going to pubs with friends because I was enjoying the thing of, oh yeah, I, I don't need to do this, but I'm wanting to do this and how much I want to be here is up to me now. Not, I'm not defined by, well, I've had too minutes to drink and drive, so I better get a cab home.

Or, or it was like, okay, well, okay, I've had enough now. Bye, and I'll just leave at any point. So I, I'm a huge, huge fan of anybody who's taken the brave steps to give up something because I'm sure as shit, their life is better. 

Shell: Oh, a hundred percent. And, and I just, I applaud, I really applaud what you've done, and I applauded anybody who has that, that kind of sliding doors moment, always almost, because I had so many sliding doors, moments throughout my thirties that I just ignored.

I had so many moments where I could have made that decision to take a break. And I know within my heart, because, you know, I'm not the believer that you are born an alcoholic. That I'm, that's a very, that's a 12 step dialogue. And I am in 12 steps. So, you know, the, it's, it's not me trying to, um, you know, uh, badmouth the 12 step programs, but I don't believe we're born to be anything.

I believe we're innocent little bundles. And like you say, horrible things happen. Great things happen, but trauma is formed and, and alcohol is a painkiller. And the reason it gets to the state of addiction and it's because it's so fucking good. It's a great one. It does exactly what it says. It's brilliant at it.

Um, and, you know, throughout my thirties while I'm drinking more and, and, and the, you know, drugs because again, hospitality, much like the music industry, it's, you know, you're offered cocaine before you're offered, you know, like a sandwich. Um, and then like I'm doing therapy, weirdly, it's not working. I'm doing, I'm taking antidepressants for 15 years.

Weirdly they're not working. But when you are just so blocked because of the, the quick fix, I suppose for me, alcohol and drugs were always a quicker fix. Yeah. And that, and that is true. You know, whereas now, and again, this is something we say in 12 steps, which I really do believe in. Um, alcohol and drugs were never the problem.

I put those down and suddenly I could see, oh, I was about to rhyme. The problem was me, you know, you can find me if you need to go either way, Glen. Yeah, yeah. Um, uh, yeah. But suddenly you do see, and you then get to, you know, my recovery has been. Putting down drugs and alcohol, picking up good nutrition, movement, changing who I hang out with.

Um, there was a little period where I did breath work, not so much anymore. Um, but you know, like the three in a bit years that I've been sober has been a completely different dimension to what I thought recovery was. And I just don't believe I could have done that if I carried on using my old coping mechanisms, which was like you said, you know, it was heartbreak and that was helping with heartbreak.

That's the challenge I think that people have with these things that are so easily available. They work well in that instant, but they're, they're the quick fix. And there's only so much you can run your life on quick fixes before it. So true. 

Glen: Fucking catches 

Shell: you. 

Glen: Yeah. Always catch you in the end. Right.

And the, and I, another thing I often think about is what on my, on my journey of, of, of, um, recovery is. The, what the word freedom really means. Mm. And, you know, freedom to go and do what you like, party, take drugs, get drunk, whatever the fuck. But what, what it doesn't do, it actually give you the, the inner freedom and the inner peace that being sober minded does.

And I can say unequivocally, that freedom is, it starts from inside you, right? Mm. And I, uh, I'm not religious in any, any shape or form. I, you know, I'm spiritual, maybe a, a, a big believer of what Buddhist Bud Buddhism is. And, but my, my, my thoughts are, you, you, you, you create your own freedom. Mm-hmm. And, and to know what freedom is, you've actually got to give, give, give, give everything up.

You've got to, you've got to understand what it's like not to be. Having that need of, oh, well, yeah, I, I better go meet Dave down the pub. You know, I be, oh, I be, I feel I, I should do this freedom to say, actually no, fuck you. No, fuck you. I'm not doing that. I'm gonna do whatever, whatever what I want to do.

Yeah. And 

Glen: I wanna do it. And that punk ethic of, actually no, I, I'm, I'm good. I'm alright. I, I don't need to get really drunk or to go and hang, you know, I, I don't, I'm good. I, and that inner peace that I've felt found in the last couple of years is, is I, I wish, I wish like I could bottle it or sit down with each one of my friends who I love dearly and say, you know what?

It's ama it's amazing. Yeah. The freedom. And I, I'm a big, big yoga fan. I, I do yoga five, six times a week. And the freedom that that gives you is, is. As a, as a bit of it, it's me and you have, we've got minds that race a thousand miles an hour. 

Shell: Oh, a hundred percent. 

Glen: And yoga is the only thing that stops me in my tracks of, I don't, I don't think about anything else.

It's like running into the most amazing, uh, marshmallow wall a hundred miles an hour and going, oh, okay. And then it's clearly been designed over the, uh, over its 800 years or however long it, and I, I dunno, I actually dunno how, how old yoga's it's been defined and, and got better and tweaked. 

Mm-hmm. So 

Glen: now when you do do it, you, you physically feel better, you feel stronger.

It teaches you, um, than one of the most important words that I kind of find it for, for, for, to find that freedom is balance. And, and balance has become a word that kind of, you know, oh, yeah. Balance. Yeah. Yeah. And now I've, now I've realized, oh, no, no, no. It's the most important word in my, in my. Vocabulary at the moment because it's one thing I think about all the time is have I, you know, am I balanced?

And then literally, can you balance, can you, and yoga teaches you the physicality of balance. And, and one thing that I, I learned recently was you lose your balance as you get older, which is why old people shuffle down the street and they fall over and they break 'cause they've lost their sense of balance.

The balance and grip are so important, you know, we've got to learn to keep our grip strength and our core strengths and our balance. 

Mm-hmm. 

Glen: If you do that and you learn and you carry on work walking upright and then do some simple things, the, the later years in your life are better and better and better.

And the freedom that that gives you is immeasurable. 

Mm. 

Glen: It's that weird thing of, you don't have to be, uh, but there's always a stigma attached. And like, like we talked about earlier, that I, I like going to yoga classes weirdly 'cause it. For what? You know, for what our amazing te I've got some incredible teacher, I'm very, very lucky and I feel connected to, you know, you don't, it is a weird thing.

You don't see anybody else do you? You don't notice anybody else next to you. You just focus and do your thing. But then you know that everyone in there is on that same journey. They're all breathing at the same time and they're all doing those things. And yes, some of it fucking hurts and some of it is, it's more difficult than others.

But when you come, nobody's ever walked out of a yoga class going, oh, I feel, I feel dreadful. 

Shell: No. Yeah. Yeah. And it's weird. It's almost a bit like, it's weirdly a little bit aligned with going to a gig together. You know? It's that whole, it's that whole energy. 'cause you're just all, again, it's that collective community feel.

And you know, I think, you know, as I always ask the guests at the end, you know, what does recovery mean to you? And I think freedom and balance are just such powerful things. And you know, it doesn't have to mean that. It's, you know, and it's evolving, isn't it? It's, it's continued. But I think those, that, that freedom and that peace as well.

I mean, when you're talking about looking at your phone, oh God, you know, I fucking 

hate it. 

Glen: Now you're like, 

Shell: I haven't pissed anyone off. It's great. 

Glen: Yeah. I'm, I'm, I'm doing this with you. You've got my full attention. I don't want to think about my phone. I don't wanna think about, and living in the moment is much harder than everyone thinks it is.

It's, oh, yeah, yeah. I like to live in the moment, but yeah. But are you living in the moment? Are you, are you really paying attention to all your conversations? And it's, it's important to give the best of you all the time because, and then, and then yes, go and find ways to recharge your batteries. Your social battery is, is not infinite.

It needs you, you, you know, when we work so hard, you've got to go and shut down and do your things and, and you put, yeah, go find that thing. You know, whether I'm. Beating up my drum kit or on a yoga mat, that's where my happiness is. 

Shell: Love that. I know. And, and that's where music comes in as well for, you know, for me especially, like, you know, I got my first walk minute, like, I think I was 10 years old and even now, you know, I had a little bit of shitty news earlier.

Uh, I felt like I was gonna explode in my little flat, like literally I felt like it was gonna explode. Um, and I put my headphones on, walked to the beach, put my, my my, um, uh, phone on shuffle. Amazing. Oh, I've got obviously like an 800 song playlist. And so, you know, some swans will pop up. You've not heard in ages.

And immediately my whole, my nervous system was calmer. I looked at the ocean. It's got, there's, it's weird, actually today the sea has got like nothing in it. It's like blast. It's like, I dunno what's going on. Probably gonna have a storm or something. I think where 

Glen: a storm's probably passed. Is it? Yeah, 

Shell: it was crazy.

It was so bizarre. It was literally, it was like a puddle or it's just like, ooh. Um, and, and I was there and I was so in it and you know, to have that again, but that's, that's a gift. And for me, music has been something that no matter what has happened in my life. Yeah. Music's been a massive part actually of my recovery in a strange way.

Um, yeah, because it's been the thing that's been consistent and. Constant. And it's always restored me to my sense of self. Yeah. And it's fucking beautiful actually. Now I think about it. 

Glen: And it's so lovely to hear you say that because in a modern, in a time when anything's access, accessible music does save lives.

And it, and it changes lives. And it, and it does amazing things. And I, I've got a big thing about, uh, I think when I, when, um, Isaac turned 15 and I read that, that terrifying article about suicidality and that the big, it's the biggest killer of men. 

Shell: Yeah. It's 

Glen: bigger than all the cancers. It, it's, and, and I, I thought, my god, he's 15 and I'm nearly 55.

And that, that scope of age men are just killing themselves. And I, and I, and I think about that and think when someone's on the verge of wanting to do something, so. Fucking horrific. And so when, when they, when all they can see is black, I, I would love to be that, that, you know, that amazing angel that comes down, puts a pair of headphones on them and say, give 'em a cuddle.

It's all right. And, and play them a song will kickstart something and make them feel, oh my God, I love this song. Yeah. And whether it's, whether it's the driving drumbeat or the, the, the, the acapella vote, what, whatever it is, music is, touches us in ways that nothing else, nothing else can happen to us.

Yeah. And I, I watch it and I, and I watch how young people, how everybody consumes music. And I think you just, what you just said, you had some terrible news and you took your headphones, you went to the beach with your beautiful dog, and you felt better. 

Shell: Yeah. Instantly. 

Glen: It's a, it's, it's an incredible thing.

You could have, the fridge had a, you know, absolutely 

Shell: chocolate. I'm not eating sugar at the moment, so I could have blown that all up. And I had some chocolate, could have had alcohol. I, I mean, I'm not, it wasn't that bad at news, but in the past I'd have been like, fuck this. I'm having a bottle of wine. I'm not gonna bother with the rest of my day.

Um, but I didn't, like I say, I went to the beach. Um, things also that I've learned now is reaching out. I messaged a couple of friends, um, who know about this, um, situation. You know, one immediately is messaging the next one rings me again, nervous system is calmed. It's, it's, again, it's all the things that you get to learn when you put down the quick fix.

Glen: Yeah, so true. 

Shell: And, and so true. And I haven't blown up my life, which is, you know, great, well, 

Glen: well, well, yeah, well done. But knowing where that landmine, 

Shell: yeah, 

Glen: you know where the landmine is, but you steer clear of it because 

Shell: Yeah, 

Glen: it's too easy to accidentally blow ourselves up, isn't it? 

Shell: Exactly. Exactly. And that's the, that's us little creative little sausages, isn't it?

Yeah. Glen, I could literally talk to you forever. Um, I know that there are, 

you're a joy. 

Shell: Oh, bless you. Well, I mean, I know there's talks about you having your own podcast very soon, and I very much cannot wait for that because I just think like, it's just such a joy to speak to somebody who has such passion for music, and we need more voices like you to be out there loudly and continuing to encourage people to, to really, you know, kind of engage with the industry and to, to be part of what is such a vibrant and important, you know, part of our existence still.

So thank you for your time and, um, all the links. All the links are where to find you. All of the amazing stuff will be in the chat. And yeah, just thank you so much for joining. 

Glen: Well, thank you for having me. I've loved it.