We Recover Loudly – Personal Recovery and Mental Health Stories

S3 Episode 08 Lauren McQuistin: Recovering Loudly … Big Feelings, Brutal Honesty, and Finding Your Voice

• Shell Righini • Season 3 • Episode 8

Share episode

In this honest, sharp, and emotionally rich episode of We Recover Loudly, host Shell is joined by Lauren McQuistin - author, vocal coach, retired opera singer and the voice behind the brilliant and brutally relatable @brutalrecovery.

They explore what recovery really looks like when you don’t hit rock bottom and how trauma, voice, and identity are woven into the healing process.

In this episode, they talk about:

  • Getting sober at 25 without the “rock bottom” narrative
  • Grieving the identities we build through alcohol, achievement, and performance
  • How trauma lives in the body and the voice
  • The power of voice work and somatic practices in recovery
  • What it means to be “too much” in a world that wants you quiet

Lauren also gives a first glimpse into her upcoming book No Lost Causes Club, which redefines what recovery can look like, especially for those who’ve never seen themselves represented in it.

This conversation is full of wit, warmth, and the kind of honesty that lingers. If you've ever felt like you're not “bad enough” to ask for help, or too loud to be loved then this one is for you.

CONNECT WITH LAUREN : 

@brutalrecovery

https://www.laurenmcquistin.com/
https://www.patreon.com/c/brutalrecovery
https://nolostcausesclub.substack.com/

For more information on We Recover Loudly and to reach out for speaking engagements or support email hello@werecoverloudly.com

@werecoverloudly
www.werecoverloudly.com


Shell: Hello and welcome to this new episode of We Recover Loudly.

Today I'm joined by Lauren McQuiston, a retired opera singer, vocal coach, and incredible writer. Lauren is also the creative voice behind the amazing, brutal recovery, uh, Instagram account, which a lot of us. Sober people, um, heavily rely on for our dark humor as we claw our way from the depths of despair into these big, beautiful, sober lies.

Lauren has got a book coming out very soon called No More Lost Co. No More Lost Causes. Um, I believe No Lost Causes Club. No. Lost Causes. Club should have done my research, shouldn't I? Listeners. Um, which is why she's joined us today specifically to talk about it. But Lauren, how are you? 

Lauren: Oh, thank you so much for that wonderful introduction.

Really appreciate that. I, I'm doing well today. How are you getting on? 

Shell: Yeah. Other than fluffing my lines, absolutely brilliant.

The best laid plans there. So, Lauren, you've been in recovery for how many years now? 

Lauren: Um, I got sober in March, 2018, so this March I got seven years. 

Shell: Amazing. God, you were sober before. It was cool. 

Lauren: Yeah, that is crazy. It's a really unique, well, it's a really not unique necessarily, but it's an interesting part of my experience.

'cause I kind of got to see, you know, I was, uh, sober for two years prior to lockdown, so I was. You know, there before, uh, you know, the general population had the, the reckoning of being like, you know, trapped in your house with yourself and that accelerated a lot of people's journeys. Mm-hmm. And yeah, like from that there's been a lot of, uh, more awareness and conversation around, uh, you know, drinking drug use and, uh, trauma and mental health issues.

Um, so it, it is really cool that like I, you know. Not every part of recovery gets easier as, as you go along. I mean, it generally it gets easier as you go along. That's the nature of recovery 'cause you get more tools and stronger. But something that has got easier for me, like I, when I first got sober, I mean, I tried to get sober for ages prior to that, but like this, this run of recovery in 2018, you know.

Lots of people would have big reactions to like, oh my God, so you don't drink ever, like, not, not even on your wedding, like as I'm not even engaged, like, you know, it was a really big deal. And even people that I meet now and, you know, they'll offer me a drink and I'll say, oh no, I, I don't actually drink.

And they're like, oh, okay, cool. And the first time that happens, I was like. Something has changed. Yeah. Like something has changed. 

Shell: Do you, you though sometimes feel a little bit gutted. It doesn't get a bit of a reaction? 

Lauren: I remember when I, um, I. My first date with my, uh, now boyfriend. Um, I, you know, dating was interesting.

I, I started, uh, I got sober in a relationship, so I, when that ended, I started dating again in 2021. And I'll say like, there still were some people who were like, oh, so you don't drink. Like, so, like, how do you have fun? Like, how, how do you have sex? Like, how do you do all these things without drinking? Um, th those were people I chose not to date, uh, but like, you know, when it, when it said on the first date, uh.

So my boyfriend, I was like, oh, I don't drink. And he was just like totally unfaced by it. He was like, okay. And I was like, not even a tiny reaction. Not even a well done. Like, not even. 

Shell: Yeah. 

It, it's funny as well, like, again, this makes me sound recovered, but not very well. Um, but you know when people are just like, yeah, I'm just choosing to be sober, you know, it's a lifestyle choice.

I'm like. Fuck you. 

Lauren: We are not the 

Shell: same back away from my non-alcoholic beer, my one option, which is mine. No, but it is, it's wonderful. I, I dunno why I was actually just reflecting on it randomly last night probably because I knew I was doing this recording and, and did just think like. Obviously because the world revolves around me, um, I did feel like the universe almost lined up for me to be able to come into recovery when I did, because I've come from the hospitality industry very much.

Like, um, your kind of, your entertainment as it were, industry background, and it just felt like you were. You know, like rocking up, you were a zebra rocking up and going like, oh, I'm gonna be a line today. And the zebras are like, no, you're a fuck. You're a zebra. Mm-hmm. And you can't just pretend. Um, I do very weird analogies, by the way.

Lauren has a side note. Um, and yet now I'm like, I'm so grateful that I came into recovery, like just in that kind of, after that first year of lockdown because I, I felt like I had. Yeah, a little bit of that in the beginning, but certainly now just like it feels like there, it's just so accepted to make these lifestyle decisions and to be sober, and how lucky are we?

Lauren: Yeah, it, it really is kind of amazing. Like, I, I do think that, like when I, when I first got sober and I remember like, I would go to like, you know, I, I, I would still go out to pubs and drink non-alcoholic drinks. Like I, and, and my drink of choice was, uh, this is really ridiculous, but I was. Quite ridiculous.

When I got sober, I got a root beer float. It was in the usa It was root beer with ice cream in it, because like that, the only non-alcoholic option was like a very limited like, you know, fridge of soft drinks. And I was, you know, I wanted, and I was like, can you make a root beer float? Like, I want ice cream in it.

'cause you know those sugar cravings, like when you stop drinking? Oh yeah. Um, and you know, I, I don't live in the USA anymore, so I don't go to those bars necessarily, but like the, the selection of non-alcoholic drinks, I'm just like. What is happening and that that, you know, that's not to say that it's the utopia, like it still is like, I would say in the uk, like the general consensus that like, um, drinking is an immovable part of culture and if you don't do that, there's something a little bit wrong with you.

Like I do think that is the dominant, like hundred percent system still, but like the thought system that's challenging, that it's just so much more present and especially with younger people. 

Shell: Mm. I love the fact that we're so, I mean, we're all the same really. But I love the fact you get sober and I like, I might be sober, but I'm still extra.

So I will have a root beer float. Um, and I want an umbrella. And you know, it's like, don't look at me, but look at me. We're 

Lauren: still a drama queen. Sorry. We are. 

Shell: Very true. And, and, and neither should you. I mean, so I mentioned opera, retired opera singer. Was that what you did straight from school?

Or tell, tell us a bit about your background. 

Lauren: Oh, yeah. This is, this is a really curious part of, uh, my, uh, story I suppose because, uh, opera singers don't usually sound like me. Uh, an opera singer. Well, when I sing they do. But like, you know, like I'm, I'm from like a working class scotch background. Say, what do they normally sound like?

Just, um, you know, it's, it's a, it's a, it's a profession that usually you have to have, uh, a lot of money behind you to get into. 'cause it's a long and slow career. Uh, so it usually is reserved for people that have a lot of family money. Um, not always. I will say that is, uh. Not always the case. Uh, but, uh, it's a really hard industry to break into.

Um 

Shell: Mm. 

Lauren: If you don't have a significant, uh, financial backing 

Shell: from Yeah. Quite elitist. I suppose. It's a bit like polo and, um, what's that one? Fencing. You don't see any fences on the council estate, do you? 

Lauren: It's true. It's true. And like, I'm, I'm, my, my parents are tenant farmers. Like I'm from like, you know, many, many, many generations of farmers who've only ever farmed.

And, uh, you know, and, and that. Wasn't for me. Like my, my parents really, really, really, uh, you know, I really admire my parents for this, but they, they said to us when we were young, like, here we've only ever had one option and it was to farm. Uh, but we want you to do whatever you want to do. Like if that's farm and cool, and if it's not farming, that's cool.

And I was like, great. I don't wanna be a farmer. Um. So it was, it was never for me. Like, um, I definitely, I admire farmers. I respect farmers, like hard life, be a farmer. Like I've still got a farmer mentality, like, um, you know, if you're awake, you're working, uh, take care of the land, take care of the ladies and the babies.

Like, that's, that's the farmer mentality. Like it is also the pitbull mentality. Uh, like the, the singer pit bull said that, and I thought that was really funny. Um, so, so yeah, I've still got that brain, but like I do not form, uh, so. You know, I, uh, from a young age, uh, was, uh, very musical. Uh, I took to the piano, uh, with, you know, I, I just took to the piano and I was able to do it very well from a very young age.

Um, and then, you know, I was in an amateur dramatic society and, you know, people were like, oh, you've got stage presence. And I was like, that's a really nice way of saying I am extra. So I was like, yeah, cool. So then I got, um. You know, I, I had a hair opera on the radio and I didn't know that it was this like, elite art form.

I didn't know that it was for rich people. I didn't know that. It was like so heavily gate kept, like I just heard it and I was like, oh my God. Like these people are screaming and that's how I feel. Like I wanna scream, I wanna, you know, do that. Um, I just thought it was so glamorous. And, uh, you are just interesting.

And, you know, the women always had these, like, ferocious faces and the men were always like, just so, um, you know, uh, every, it just felt so embodied. Like, and I was like, I want that because I don't feel like that, but I wanna scream, so I wanna scream. Um, yeah. And then, you know, I, someone. Like ran my voice through a couple of scales and they were like, we believe that you have the raw materials, like to train yourself in this way.

Uh, and because I'm delusional, I was like, absolutely. Like that sounds a great idea. Um, and you know, I, I had many ambitions as a child. I've always been very ambitious. Uh, I think most, uh, you know, uh, the. I had a very complicated relationship with my hometown. So like, I had that, like, I, I gotta get out here mentality when I was growing up.

Mm. Like, I've healed my relationship with my hometown. It's like, it, it's a shit town with good people, um, which is still way better than a good town with shit people. So like, oh, a hundred percent. I love my hometown, but like, I, I, when I was growing up, I was like, I gotta get out here. Like this is, this is not for me.

Like, I wanna be Audrey Hepburn. Like, I, I can't do that here. Um, so like, I, I just, I fought tooth a nail for it. Like, I was like, I'm gonna get out here. Um. And yeah, so I went to uni in Glasgow. I went to the RCMD as it was called then. It's called the RCS now. Um, and then, yeah, I did my undergraduate, did a master's.

Did another master's, and that's when I moved to the USA, uh, in 2000 and. I can't remember, uh, 2015, that's when I moved to the USA, um, to pursue my master's education. And yeah, like, you know, the thing about opera singing that people don't really, uh, get, um, sense of from the outside is it just operates like any job.

Mm-hmm. Like you, you know, uh, the, the schooling was really, really, uh, extreme because, you know, you had to show up, um, for your classes, but you were also in like, productions, like, uh, the shows. So, you know, you would be in school from like 8:00 AM to like. Midnight if it was a show run. Um, which is really hard to do when you're an alcoholic, I'm telling you.

Like it was. It was a lot. Um, but yeah, and it just operates like any job. Like you, you do your auditions, you get your job, and uh, you make money from screaming. It was great. I loved it. 

Shell: My God, every time I, uh, interview somebody this season, I'm like, I picked the wrong career. This sounds great. Um, I really, I really loved what you were saying about female empowerment screaming, um, because I.

Like these, these days we've got far more of a strong female presence, whether it's in the media, um, female voices, you know, go girl power and stuff like that. But I suppose when these operas were kind of written back in the day, um, I. Women were far more subdued in society, and it must have been quite, um, a different identity for a female to take on, or were was the, were they traditionally men that did the female parts in operas?

How uneducated do I sound right now? Like, 

Lauren: these are good questions and you're touching on many things. Like, uh, there was a time, I can't remember the dates exactly, like in certain, uh, church societies where women weren't allowed to sing. Mm. Because we believe that the female voice was too seductive. It would lead men to sin.

Um, I mean, I find that that is. Very true, Lauren. And like in the, in the Greek, uh, tradition, in the Greek tragedies, men would play women. Um, but in opera, funnily enough, uh, a lot of women would play men like, uh, oh men. So Sopranos play, like, they call, they call 'em trouser roles. Um, because it was I love that.

Yeah. So, and it is really cool. And like, you know, opera, um, has lots of like negative female tropes. There's a really good book called Opera, the Undoing of Women, which says that women in art is a lot of the time. Uh, they are being sacrificed at the altar of arts. Like so much art is based on women's suffering, which is why I love opera now as like a contemporary art form because we can kind of subject those, uh, original things and make these.

Uh, and, and even still in the original works, like there are these ferocious women. There are these like vicious women. There are these, uh, like not so de Firo Mar Firo, one of the most famous operas ever. The, the joke about that opera is that all of the men are losing their shit constantly. And it's the women that are just like, okay, here's what we're gonna do.

Like, classic. And that's, you know, like, it's, uh, and I, I love that, that theme because I, um, you know, I, I always. It's why I was drawn to opera, right? I was so uncomfortable with who I was. I was so uncomfortable with being this shy, uh, uncomfortable self-conscious, uh, girl that hated her body. Um, hated like my thoughts, like hated my position in life, but when hated how emotional I was, I hated how emotional it was.

I was so emotional from your dot. But in opera, I could, you know. Stick a corset on and like scream and like really let it rip through me how angry or how sad I was. And it was, it was beautiful. Like, oh, it's, it's that, that, that's what drew my, that, that's what drew me to it. That like these emotions weren't something that was forbidden, which, which they are, people are terrified of female rage and, and they should be like, we've got a lot to be angry about.

But like, um, I, in, in opera a lot of the time it was, uh. It was like permission to feel those things. And, and I did that to a negative extent as well because like, I, uh, was so uncomfortable with myself and I was, uh, obsessed with ejecting myself. So I, I ejected myself into characters and I ejected myself into alcohol.

Like, that was my coping mechanism. 

Shell: Gosh, there's, I, there's so many parallels with everything that you've just said and like working in hospitality, weirdly enough, but I was thinking as well, like in a way like opera kind of saved you because I think that, you know, you and I are both in recovery. We therefore have a lot of similarities and I think that sadly the people like us who were born, who are were, were always described the same.

The sensitive one, the one who, you know, like. Regardless of kind of like your recovery background, um, whether you do 12 steps or not or any other, there's still that commonality between us being kind of a little bit more attuned to other, a little bit more highly, highly strong is another kind of way we get described.

Highly sensitive person empath, and it's almost like those that don't find a pathway to channel that. That they're the ones, it doesn't mean that they won't therefore end up still with the same kind of addiction problems and that, but almost like, I dunno, I was gonna say that like the for can be maybe softer or, I dunno, I'm just literally.

Chatting shit that I definitely feel like in a way that opera was quite a saving for you. Do you feel that since it was your life? 

Lauren: Yeah. I mean, no, I You're, you're talking about something really important here, I think, and something that can be quite difficult for people on the outside to understand because as it like.

The people get sober for many different reasons. I got sober to save my life. Um, and I can only speak from that perspective. So that's the perspective I'm gonna speak to. Um, so it's sometimes really difficult for people to understand when I say at times in my life, drinking saved my life because my other option was to kill myself.

Shell: Yeah, 

Lauren: a hundred percent. Um, there's a, there's a, um, I used to watch this all the time when I was drunk. Have you seen the Craig Ferguson, Britney Spears monologue? 

Shell: What? Tell me about it. Is it when he is 

Lauren: crying? You look up after, after we're done recording, look up the Craig Ferguson, uh, surprise monologue.

It was, I, I can't remember which year it was. It might have been 2007. Uh, because it was really, really, really, um, I, I feel like he, he was really ahead of the curve here because he was saying in that monologue, I am not going to make fun of Britney Spears. Because at that time, everyone was piling onto Britney Spears.

Like she was a, like, she was the national. International punching bag. Yeah. And Craig Ferguson got onto the stage and he was like, I am not gonna make fun of Britney Spears because that woman is in pain and she is a baby. She's 25 years old. Like, you need to take a good hard look at yourself if you're making fun of her.

Wow. Um, so I, I, and, but then he said, um, you know, he talks about his own recovery journey and he said that like there was a morning near about his rock bottom where he was going to kill himself, but like he got drunk instead. Mm-hmm. You know, he didn't, he says like, I forgot to kill myself that day. And that was my experience.

And I know that's a very extreme experience and I, I used to watch that monologue drunk. I remember so many times I was living in Indiana, I would walk home from the pub two miles in the dark, um, in, in the middle of nowhere, uh, lit by the light of the moon. I would roll into bed, I would cry for an hour, and I would watch that monologue.

And I didn't get sober for like five more years. But like, you know, I just. That planted a seed for me. So to get, to get back to your original, um, question like, yes, opera absolutely saved my life. Like it was, um, it was, well first of all it was my job, but like it was also. A, a maladaptive coping mechanism.

Exactly. Exactly. That. That's all these things are like they were what carried me before I was able to find different tools. Mm-hmm. And when it was so frightening to sit inside myself when my feelings were so big that they, you know, the reactions I had to those feelings where you can't be alive anymore.

I had drinking and I had a. Romantic relationship, shall we say. Uh, and I had opera like, so that was my, that was my toolkit for a really long time, which made it really difficult when I got sober and I had to like go do my job in this different way. 

Shell: Oh God. It really does. And like, I think, and thank you for sharing that because I think again, and it really relates to the reason that you are, um.

In Instagram accounts called Brutal Recovery because there are brutal truths to what it is like to be in active addiction and, and the choices that you make on a daily basis don't make sense to. Our families, our friends, and thank God they don't because it means they're not one of us. Right. You know, I, my brain, I just always want my brain to be quiet, or I did want it to, I mean, I'd still quite like it too.

And so I would drink to fall asleep. So I would wake up at like, you know, midday on a day off. And the, the thought of spending a whole day with myself, only me, and my vo and the voices, and the noise in my head was unbearable. And therefore, you start drinking. Not even to have a fun afternoon, but for me to just, at the time I was thinking sleep, but probably more like passing out, you know, and, and that was my goal.

My goal was complete and total silence, not anything else. And again, I don't think that people, I. Thank goodness they don't necessarily can't understand that that's your two options. Right. You know, it's either agony or silence and you will always pick silence no matter. And thank goodness there was something that was less permanent because now nearly four years into recovery, and I have this big, beautiful but bumpy sober life, which couldn't be more different to the life I was leading and, and, and the life I expected for myself, you know, like the, the level of.

Acceptability of That's all right. Okayness that I used to have. Um, but I was thinking as well, like the whole kind of going to work, you know, going to that mask, that way of projecting. I think that the same with working in hospitality. You know, it is very performative. Yeah. But then what happens is you go home and you feel so icky with.

The performance and the lies and you actually feel quite inauthentic. That for me is when my drinking really ramped up. Was that something that you felt as well during those times? 

Lauren: Yeah, a hundred percent. Um, my, one of my friends, uh, I've, I've included this part in the book actually, 'cause I think it's one of the most illuminating conversations I've ever had.

Um, he where he said like, I'm watching myself do and say these things that, and I'm looking at myself, do that and think. That's not me like that. That's not me. And then I come back to myself and I'm like. And I don't know who I am. 

Shell: Mm-hmm. Like that, 

Lauren: that's the loneliest empty place to most empty place to be in.

Where, you know, you, there's that disconnect, but like, that disconnect isn't between point A and point B. It's um, these like free floating confusions. And it's just like, there, there's no anchor, there's, there's no rudder. Like in the, in the Dutch translation of, uh, unmanageable, they call it rudderless. And I think like that's, that's how I felt like it was just like completely without a rudder.

I was in the middle of the sea, I was surrounded by sharks, and I was like trying to convince myself and everyone around me that I was totally fine. And this is exactly how I should be because I don't know what this safe haven looks like. I am more scared of like the unknown than I am of, you know, this hell I'm living in.

And that's why recovery was difficult for me. 

Shell: So. Well, it's like, um, what's, um. Bulby, I would say his name wrong. Bowley's Attachment theory, you know, and the monkeys and how the monkey will go to the, the barbed wire mother for comforts versus the soft, squishy one. And I can't remember the reason for that, even though I have got a psychology degree.

Um, but again, you know, we will choose familiar, familiar pain over uncertainty, even if uncertainty looks like it's potentially gonna be that softer place. We'll still fall for that, which leans me nicely into talking about trauma, um, and the work that you do with voice. Look how, look, how well I did that.

Um, so I know such a segue. I hope you're listening. BB, C, um, tell me all about this. 'cause this, this work for me is absolutely fascinating and I'll explain why shortly. But tell me what all about your, your voice work that you do now and trauma. 

Lauren: Well, um, I, so I went to, as I said earlier, I went to the University of Indiana, uh, or Indiana University as it is actually called, um, in 2015.

So, um, American universities like I. They, they don't muck around like they, that they, you know, the, I've got, you know, got those three degrees of music, one from RCS, one from Indiana, one from Yale, 

Shell: such an addict. 

Lauren: I've got three degrees. I don't anymore like, like I, I've said to like, if I ever say I'm going back to university, like call the police, like I've been replaced.

Like, I can't, I can't do, um. So, yeah, I was, um, I went to Indiana University and it was really hard, like my degree in the UK was, uh, so in, in the USA, because universities are kind of run like a business, like they want you to take as many classes as possible, so you pay the tuition for those classes. It's my understanding, I might be wrong.

If there's any US listeners who want to rebuke that, I will totally accept that I'm wrong. Um, so in the uk, and it was like in the UK it was very performance based. Uh, we did do academic classes, but the, the priority was our performing life. Um, and uh, in the USA, it was as much I. Emphasis on that performing life and the academic side of it.

So like when I got to USA, the first thing I did was they, um, they give you tests for Italian, French, German music history, music theory, uh, oral skills, like written theory skills in the four areas of music history, like rock, classical, romantic, and 20th century. Like you're just in constant. I was sight singing as well.

Um, and like I, I remember like. I failed most of those. One 'cause I was drunk. Two 'cause I was overwhelmed. Three because I just wasn't ready for how, uh, full on it was gonna be. Um, and. So, so anyway, uh, they give you all these academic classes, uh, that you have to do, and it was, it, that was the hardest thing I've ever done.

But because I'm a really persistent person, um, that that's all I've got going for me, like, I am not especially intelligent. I am not especially unique. I am just persistent. Like that is the only defining factor that, uh, I have. And, uh. So they were like, do do you want to do like a non-academic degree? 

Shell: Do you wanna do something less academic?

Lauren? Yeah. 

Lauren: Like, do you wanna do, like, there's a pd, like a performance degree. Like, do you wanna just do that? Like you wouldn't have to do all these classes. And I was, I, I was just like, absolutely not, because you've told me that I can't do it now, so I've got to do it. Like defiance is an outstanding istic characteristic.

Um. So I, um, so I, I did all of these academic classes. I drove myself absolutely insane. I, I took summer classes, like it was the most full, and I was a full-time alcoholic at this point as well. So, like, you have impression, which is a big job. It's so time consuming, so full time consuming. I then, I. And we had to do, uh, a pedagogy class, which is, you know, the, um, basically just, you know, the, the anatomy and the theory behind teaching, singing.

So we had to understand absolutely everything about the human voice. Um, so. I took this class, I got the professor who was notorious for being really tough. Um, and I was like, great, another challenge. Thank you. Um, and I really, really loved that class. And then at the end they, we had to do a research paper.

And because I, um, know was. Really struggling. He said to me like, you can do like a really easy one. You can do like sleeps, effect on the voice. You can do caffeines effect on the voice. Um, but me being me who's always like on hard mode at all times, um, I said I wanna do traumas effect on the voice. Um. And he said, that's gonna be really hard.

Like you are aware that it's gonna be really hard. There wasn't a lot of research. Like Yeah, body keeps this, uh, the best Vander Experie keeps the score had like, just come out. Um, you know, the, the global conversation about trauma that is, has been happening for the last four years was not happening in 2015.

So he was just like, wow, you're insane. Okay. Um, and my delusion was that I didn't think. I was a traumatized person. Now, by this point in my life, I was 21 years old, I believe, um, give or take a year. Um, and you know, by this point I'd experienced, uh, abuse, I'd experienced domestic violence. I'd experienced all of the trappings of an alcoholic life, and all of the traumas that you accumulate with that.

I had experienced music school, which is really traumatizing. Like, I, I was just like, I'd been groomed, like, you know, I'd had all of these traumatic experiences, but because I have this like, um, battering ram mentality, I was just like, that didn't affect me. Like, I, I'm tough. Like, that did not affect me. Um, and, and you know, I was like, I'm, I'm a singer.

Of course I'm embodied like, you know, I'm, it's like you diva. Like, I, I don't, I don't get trauma. Um. So I did this research paper, um, on trauma's effect on the voice. Uh, it was very pedagogical, it was very academic. It was simply just like, you know, the, uh, physical and emotional effects of a traumatic experience on the singing voice and how to teach people who have had traumatic experiences because the teaching style, uh, requires to be different than someone who's not had a significant traumatic experience.

There's certain, uh, experience, uh, physical experience. That are, uh, more troubling for people who've experienced trauma because, uh, a lot of the experiences of singing such as resonance and connection to your core, they can, uh, remind you of, uh, the, the feeling of being triggered. You know, involuntary experiences are frightening for people who've experienced trauma, and a lot of singing is involuntary experiences.

Mm-hmm. Um, and, you know, it's just like teacher student relationships as well, like how to navigate, you know, with someone who, uh. Has experienced trauma at the hands of someone who's supposed to be protecting them, but didn't. So I was doing this research, and then shortly after I lost my voice, my voice disappeared.

I, I tried to ate, which is to make sound, so it just go like, oh. Um, and, and I couldn't make sound like my, my vocals just wouldn't work. Wow. So they scoped me. They put like a skull, popped my nose and down my throat, and they were like, there's nothing wrong with you. There's physically nothing wrong with you.

We can't tell you why you can't sing right now. Um, they, they gave me steroids. Like the steroids didn't work. Um. And I, I had to work with a coach, literally just going through the same scale like five times, like going be, be, be, be, be like until my voice came back and it took a process of months. And that's when I realized, oh, I'm a profoundly traumatized person.

Oh, oh God. Um, yeah. So then. I continued my research and I continued my research into the area of, uh, somatic therapy into the area. Mm-hmm. Of, um, and I will be very clear, like I'm not a therapist, I'm not a trained therapist. Um, I simply am a trained singing teacher who knows some things about this area.

Um, you know, if someone's looking to me for, uh, like therapeutic treatment, I cannot offer that. But I can teach you how to sing in a way that will feel good for you. Uh, specifically, um. But anyway, so, um, yeah, and then I realized that like, you know, a lot of us are in freeze that I rather, you know, fight flight when you're in a traumatic experience, like you can't fight and you can't flight, like you're stuck with it.

And singing is a way of getting outta freeze because you're moving through it, you're making it into something. The, the very sensation of the vibrations with your body kind of can awaken you. And if you can. Find a way to make that sensation pleasant. It can be, uh, like a, a, a, reclaiming, it can be like self-soothing.

And, you know, the way that I always frame it, it's like it's self-experience, self-expression and self-soothing. That you can experience yourself, you can soothe yourself, and you can express yourself. And that's, uh, it's it, you know, and honestly, it, it, it started with my own experience of going through that, um, be, and then when, when I got sober, um, I, yeah, I, I just couldn't.

Enter like my roles the same way I did. 'cause I realized I was expressing myself, but I wasn't experiencing myself. Like, I wasn't like, this is my body and this is how I'm using it. Like, it was kind of, I'm just gonna put myself out there like, and, and hope someone loves me. So, you know, it's approach and singing from this, uh, perception or, or this, uh, perspective of like, I'm going to feel.

Myself and how I feel I'm gonna move my breath around my body. I'm gonna, you know, be in touch with these vibrations. Um, so yeah, that was a very long form answer for your question. 

Shell: Oh, I mean, anyone watching the video of this would've just seen me sat here look like with my hands, like on my, my like little fat wrists under my chin, just like absolutely.

Mind blowing because again, it's, I made a note here, like you got sober before it was trendy and you did trauma before it was trendy because you're right, so much has changed. Yeah. Move over g Matt. It was all Lauren, um, mean, um. Because you're right. Like it, it, it has been such a huge change and it's been a huge part of me understanding.

And a lot of people, I think when they come into sobriety, them understanding the reasons, you know, gal mate's classic. I don't ask why the addiction, I ask why the pain? And, um, I growing up, I'll tell you my story now, but I, I sang, don't worry, I won't do it everybody, but I've always sang and wanted to be a singer and I did lessons and things like that.

Um, and. But I had this thing where I couldn't swallow food and. Yeah. Oh yeah, she's done the finger point. Everybody I'm close, let you talk. And I would go to the doctors and they kept saying it was psychosomatic. This is probably the first time psychosomatic had ever been used in a sentence. By the way, this was like the late nineties early noughties, and we were like, well, I'm not fucking imagining it, doctor, doctor, whatever.

So, you know, I'll move along and. And it became so chronic like that it would only be, it would be certain foods would be harder, but it still wouldn't be foods that I could identify. So I couldn't just go like, well, don't eat X. Um, and it's only now that I look back, I realize it wasn't the foods, it was the environment that I was in.

That was causing it. And um, and when I say like, the food wouldn't go down, like I would sometimes be in the bathroom for over an hour just trying to unlodge whatever it was that I was eating from my throat. And you would try and drink water and the water comes straight up and you can't breathe. And it, it's, it's a really fucking, horribly traumatic thing to go through, um, to the point that I would sometimes just not eat when I was out, you know, all of these things.

So it really affected and the moment I came in sub sobriety. Touch wood, but the moment I did that, I've never choked on food. I think maybe like two or three times maybe. But that's going from it almost being a daily thing. Mm-hmm. Mm-hmm. Fucking trauma, it turns out, you know, and, and that tightening of my throat that I used to feel because I was lying.

I was spending my whole life lying and performing. And therefore it was just that sudden release. Yeah. And I just thought that was mental. Over to you, 

Lauren: Dr. No, I really like, thank you for sharing that. Like, that is so, so, so important. Like there's, there's this thing in singing. It's called, um, I can't remember the scientific name for it, but it's called like a, an irregular vocal fold deduction where like your vocal folds, uh, don't, uh.

Basically move with the ulli effect, which is what makes the error move through the vocal folds and it's often misattributed to asthma. Um, and a lot of people that in the past who have felt that they've been diagnosed with asthma because it's got the exact same symptoms of asthma, have realized that they've got an irregular vocal fold deduction as a result of prolonged trauma.

Shell: Wow. It's crazy. And it's just like, you know, like you talk about throat chakras as well of like, and not you, but people talk, you know? And again, that blocking and then there's just been such a release and obviously you could say, well, you also carry your body differently. I'm not in that fight flight, freeze.

Foreign state all the time. So there's that impact, but it's, it was just such a, it was almost an overnight impact on something that was so debilitating because I wasn't being heard. And again, you know, without going too deep down the childhood trauma thing, you know, I, I did spend my life being told, you're too loud, be quiet.

Um, or when I do talk your volumes, volume, you know, and there does become a point when you tell somebody that. I dunno how many times, but there will be a point where that person just stops talking or stops expressing. 

Lauren: That's in my, in my studio. Like, that's what I call like, uh, the Silence Child syndrome.

Like, and, uh, most of the in-person lessons that I have are with silenced child, uh, children, uh, who are now adults. And most of them, they, they come to my studio because, you know, I do distance lessons as well on Zoom. Uh, but they say like, I don't, I, I can't make sound in my house. Like, I'm scared to make sound even in my own house.

Like I need to be in a different environment. 'cause I'm so scared of being haired. Um, yeah, because it, it's, and, and you know, that goes into like, you know, if you've not been believed mm-hmm. That's another big thing as well. Like, you know, you've had the bravery to talk and you've not been believed. That's another huge issue.

Huge. Um, and I feel like, yeah, that there is that. Aspects of like, uh, shutting down. Uh, one way this showed up for me is, uh, in certain areas of my speech. Uh, it was a therapist actually that, um, pointed this out to me, um, that I, whenever I talked about sex, I would talk up here and I would talk like a teeny bopper.

Like I, I would talk like this, like, like a child. Um, and. She, it, it is because like she, she put it down too, and I, I do agree with her that, you know, I had sex put upon me before I was. An adult, shall we say? Um, mm. You know, like, like many people. Mm-hmm. So I'd kind of like frozen my sexual identity there.

Like it had always been this, uh, so, so my voice was mirroring that. Like I talked about sex in this very like, immature, immature, not in like a insulting way, like just in the literal way. Like I had no sexual maturity. I had sex thrust up upon me before I was ready and then just treated sex like that until I got sober.

So I took my sex like here. Um, and it took me a really long time to like embody myself as a sexual being as a sexual adult who like, enjoy sex and chooses sex and, you know, all of that stuff. 'cause I always perceive sex as this thing that was like done to me. Yeah. Yeah, because that's, that, that's how I experienced it as a child.

So, and yeah, and it reflected in my voice. And like, I see that like, uh, you know, people that I work with, like I see the area of their life that they are frozen in. 

Shell: Mm-hmm. By 

Lauren: the pitch of their voice. Like by where they, where they, they go with their voice when they talk about it can tell you so much about a person.

Shell: I have been told before that, um. It was told to me in a, in an insulting way by an assistant manager. I can remember he turned around and he said, don't ask me to do it in that silly little girl voice. I'll just do it. And it's like a flashbulb memory. He said, I'll, because I think I was asking him to do a shift or something and he was like, I'll do the shift, but don't talk to me in that silly little girl voice.

'cause I think I obviously, like you say, I must have been like, oh, please, can you just do this? You know, 

Lauren: you know, and as well, like, I, I do think that this is, this is very particular to the women that I teach that like, a lot of the time when we're talking to authority, like we are, uh, trying to unconsciously signal like, please don't kill me.

Like, please don't like, uh, or, or, you know, I, I will speak for myself. Like, um, there's so many working environments where like, I've not been respected. Mm. So if I were to speak in my normal speaking voice, which is like this. Basically like I've got quite a chest voice. I've got not the lowest voice in the world, but like, you know, I talk like this, like I talk in my jaw and my teeth.

Um. You know, I would not be respected there. So, you know, we're, I was resourceful. I was like, okay, if I am flirtatious, if I act, um, like a, like a bird with a broken wing mm-hmm. Like, people will do things for me like that, that was, uh, you know, addiction is resourceful. Like it's, uh, it's, uh, you know. It takes what it can.

Like, you know, in addiction, like I was, I was an addict from the day I was born. I didn't have alcohol and drugs when I was born. So I had like fantasy, I had food, I had relationships. Mm-hmm. Um, and the way we cope is resourceful. 'cause addiction is a coping mechanism. Mm-hmm. And one of the ways I coped was like.

I could be this like really, really sweet and demure girl who can just like, oh, please help me. Mm-hmm. Please help me. Mm-hmm. Because I'm so pathetic. And, and the reality is I'm not a pathetic person, but I was just so scared of not being taken seriously that I didn't take myself seriously. Um, 'cause that that was the only way I could get ahead for a really long time before I was ready to like actually step into, no, this is what I sound like, and I I will be respected.

Yeah. 

Shell: And God, do you know what like. My industry is male dominated even now. Um, it's still very male dominated. And you're right, you, when you mentioned at the beginning about your, your friend kind of hearing the things that they were saying and thinking, that's not me. That's not who I am. I did exactly the same.

I've shared about it multiple times on the podcast about being really quite ashamed by some of the, the manner that I would speak to people. Um, you know, the character, the, the very brash, the very I used to. Swear. I mean, I still swear I was about to say, I fucking love a swear word. I do love a swear word.

I think swearing is really a really great way of expressing a bit like the whole opera. It's like, get that I, I love a swear word. Um, but um, I would. Swear. Like I would eat every other word was a swear word. It was all very like, yeah, right. Yeah. Right. Yeah. Right. Yeah. Anyway, what what we gonna do? Yeah.

What we doing and um, in those environments, and actually, yeah, your voice is such a massive part of your identity. I'm just kind of like pulling it together in my brain in a way that like, I don't think we all realize. Yeah. And. I would think in the negative, oh, I would use my voice to manipulate, but actually it wasn't just to manipulate people, to get people to do what I wanted.

It was also like, again, it's that maladaptive coping mechanism. I'll become the little girl because then maybe you will help me or you know, in relationships, my relationships, which here come the bunny ears, everybody relationship. Um, always that very meek, that very, okay, no worries. Oh, should I just go and, and.

The voice that I use now, I, my authentic voice is completely different and it sits differently, and I'm sure, again, it feels different when I speak. I feel like I speak from, from the heart, not quite from the heart, but you know, but I, yeah, like you say, embodied. Yeah. Hundred percent versus, yeah. That kind of, that panicky, um.

Yeah. Fascinating, isn't it? 

Lauren: It's, it's so interesting you touched on something as there that's really interesting in my history as well. 'cause like, um, I had had the potential when I was drinking to do literally anything, but like, I, I, I, I could become very aggressive and I could become, you know, quite violent and abrasive.

Same. And I liked that about myself at the time. At the time, yeah. 'cause I had this, I, I drank like a man. Like I, I was like, I drink like a man, I can drink you under the table and then I will fight you. Um, and yeah, and I would get into this, like I had an ex that called it, he's like, there was a certain part of the evening where I'd go into like shouting a clock.

Like he called it shout like, and I started shouting like, oh, it's shouting a clock. Um, and like that, that was when I, when I was like, you know, using this like. Guttural, ferocious voice. Um, because, you know, and, and that, that was my rage, obviously. Mm. Um, and it was, it was like, yeah. 'cause I was like, I wanna be like a man.

Like I, I am so I'm not this like a, you know, little girl, um, that, you know. I, I sometimes feel like I need to fall into, to receive love and care. Um, and I'm also not this like, you know, screaming, shouting, throwing the plates person either I'm, I'm somewhere in the middle, but like, it took me so long to find that somewhere in the middle, like it really took me a long time.

Shell: Yeah, it does. And again, I think, I think not to do the whole like boy versus girl thing, but I do think it is, like you say, slightly harder. Well, actually no, I don't think it's harder for women because then I think, you know, men also have that kind of pressure of being that very masculine male. The tone, the, you know, we, hey, we've all been, we all were kids at school.

However many 20 years ago, we know if there was a girly sounding boy in our year, it'd be like, oh, he's probably gay. And this was back before being gay was cool as well. And I mean, like, so I actually, I don't even think, I think the pressure about how you sound, I'm pretty, I, my, my dad has got a very deep, um, booming voice.

Mm. And. He's very successful, was very successful in his career. And I definitely, but, but in try, he listens to this podcast, so I need to be careful how I say this. Um, he, he left school at 14 with no, no qualifications. So if you look at him on paper that there's no reason that he should have ended up at the managing director of, um, the world's biggest catering company.

You know, like. But I do think that the way, you know, he's always been told to have someone who had gravitas, you know, voice presence and therefore that ability to use his voice in that way to potentially open doors that wouldn't have been opened for him. Yeah. Traditionally. And obviously you then did hard work.

You know, you've got backup, what you say. Of course. Um, so yeah, that was a very stumbly way of saying, actually I do think that men also probably have these challenges. It's pigeonholing. Yeah. 

Lauren: No, I, I do, I really agree with you though. Like, I remember my, I, there was this, so any man that dates women in opera is there because it was a way to meet girls at school and they just kind of, it kind of went too far.

Like that's like the binding story of every male opera singer that it, that dates women. Um. And I love that. And like there was one of those guys that I studied with and I loved him very much. Like he was great, but he was, he was like, he was American. So he wasn't like a lads like how we understand lads, but like he was American version of a lad.

Um, like he, he was, you know, really like masculine and uh, in, in the traditional sense. I know that word. I. I, I've got too much to say about that, um, to, to, uh, get too into it. But like, you know, he fit, he had all of the components of, uh, traditional western masculinity and, um, you know, I viewed him, I was like, oh, you're never someone that's struggled like that.

That was my preconception of him. I was like, oh, you're fine. Like you operate in this world in a way where, you know, you never have to worry about. Anything 'cause you've just got it. And then we were like talking in the, um, the student lounge area in uni and uh, he was like, oh, I went to the gym today. And I was like, oh, how was, how was it?

And he was like. Do you know, it's really nerve wracking. Like, I went in and everyone knew what they were doing and like I sat down on the bench and I Googled like, what do you do in the gym? And I just felt so stupid and I just felt like, you know, everyone was, was looking at me and thinking like, what?

Why is he here? And I was like, that's so interesting. 'cause I feel like you are that person. And he was like, whatcha talking about? And I was, it was such like, that was such a moment of clarity for me when I was like, oh, it's not like every man and every woman. It's the ideas behind it and the oppress, everyone like that.

That was, yeah, that was like 2018 that I had that realization and it changed my life. Like it really, really, really changed my life. 

Shell: Yeah. No, it's, it is, it's so true. Like you are like. And again, I suppose your voice in a weird, in a way can almost, um, it can be an asset because it can get you into these areas and these rooms where potentially you weren't necessarily belonging, but at the same time, then there's that pressure to.

Then perform to the voice that you've got and live up to it. And you know, like I've got this big masculine, stern sounding, you know, confident voice, and yet inside I feel like a crippled small child. And you're right. You know, you'll be like, what do you mean? Like, look, what do you want about? And. Again, I suppose that will probably create barriers to asking for help and, right.

Oh, but it's very layered. It's very, very layered. And that's just a voice, that's literally 

Lauren: just 

Shell: the human voice. I know. I'm gonna think about this along, um, speaking of voices and having a voice. Some would say being a writer is a bit like having a voice that wasn't, that wasn't the best segue at all. Um, no, but you have got a book coming out.

Um, it's gonna be, it'll be out by the time this episode's out, but only just so, um, quit lit, as they call it. Quit lit, um, was a massive thing for me because there is somebody that I know who. I knew in the madness, as we call it, and they posted a picture of them reading, um, the unexpected joy of being sober.

Yes, 

Lauren: Catherine on their 

Shell: Instagram. Yeah. And I messaged them and I hadn't spoken to them properly for goodness, like at least a year. And I said, oh, are are, are you trying the sober thing? And they said, well, yeah, actually I'm, I'm, I'm in aa. And I was like. And even though I'd already tried AA and but that there was something about them showing that book that made me go, oh, I'm getting chills actually.

That made me realize that it was gonna be okay. And I briny Gordon was a massive one for me. Glorious rock bottom, glorious rock bottom. Oh, whatever. She is just so great. And now you were joining the ranks, so please do in the few moments that we have left, tell us all about your book. 

Lauren: So no loss Causes Club is, uh, ba it, it's the book that I needed, like, uh, when, when I, it's the book that I wish I had, uh, when I got sober.

Um, because I, I, I loved all of those books as well. Um, I thought that they were, um, you know, I, I loved that they were women because I had a preconception that like, uh, you know, only only men had drinking problems. Um. Sure. Which is, you know, that, that was like a clung onto that. So, uh, but my next preconception was, well, sobriety is for people that have lost something and need to get it back.

Mm. And I was 25 years old. Literally all I had was a couple of degrees. Um, like I didn't have like a house. My relationship was, uh, a mess. Like I, I was like, I'm not married, I don't have kids. Like, why would I bother getting sober? I'm also just like a completely lost cause. Like I'm just one of these like unique, like if I, if I had a house, maybe I would get sober.

Um, I, I just didn't see the point in getting sober. So, um, yeah. And then that was a preconception like that, that was literally just a prejudice that I had. Um, so I wanted to write a book for people that feel that they are too far gone, uh, but not bad enough. There's, because that, that's where I felt, I was like, I'm too broken to consider getting sober.

But things are still fine. You know, like I, I can keep going. I'm young, I'm young, I'm young, you know. Um, and basically what no loss causes, club aims to do is, um, it will, it's, it goes through every age of a recovery journey. Um, so the, it goes through like the, the decision to change 'cause, uh, you know. That moment that we have where we are, you know, we get that knowing of I can't go on like this.

Mm-hmm. If we want to change. We need to then make a decision and take an action. So there's, you know, that's the first chapter and then it goes through basically the early days, uh, getting your senses back, getting your emotions back, uh, tackling, escapism, because like as, as we both know as people in recovery, like putting the drink down is the first part and the rest part of the, it is the rest of your life.

Yeah. Um, and then, you know, it's the easy bit. Yeah, absolutely. And then I go into like sex and dating and grief. So, uh, it's a me, it's a memoir in some ways because it's going through my recovery journey. As someone who got sober young, who felt like, you know, there was no point in getting sober. Um, I. And it's a guide in some ways because I have come up across all of these things and I simply share my experience with them and the wisdom that I've gained along the way.

So I've, I've wanted, I wanted to put it out there because I know that I cannot be the only person on earth who is in their twenties or their early thirties and was just like, I can't have a drinking problem. I'm too young. Mm. I'm not bad enough, but I'm too far gone. Um, and also for anyone who's in a recovery journey that is, you know.

Coming up against one of those aspects I mentioned like, okay, I've been sober for a wee while, but my dating in life is a, you know, a bit colorful, uh, which was my experience that turned a half years sober. Um, I do really get into that. Um, or, you know, like, or, or someone who just wants to yeah, like have, have the experience of.

Looking into escapism or, you know, that idea that we know, we put the drink down and then we realize how dependent we are on, uh, shopping or work like workaholism. Mm. 

Shell: So 

Lauren: I wanted to write something that's, it's about, it's about drinking and drugs, but it's also about everything else, because that's what recovery is like as, as oh, a hundred 

Shell: percent 

Lauren: put in the drink and drug stone is the easiest part.

Shell: Yeah. And I think it's just such an important message. Again, that's the whole reason I started, we recover loud, like. Two years ago is because, you know, I got sober and you know, did the classic one month sober. I am Beyonce. Who else can I save? 'cause that's what we do. Luckily I waited about 18 months before I did it.

Um. But I knew I wasn't the only person at the time in hospitality that felt the way I felt that, that we, I wasn't blaming the industry, but I knew that the industry had a massive part to play and it wasn't fair that it wasn't kind of called out. Um, and that the, the buck didn't just fall at me for being a bad person who couldn't handle the pressures of.

The industry, there was something intrinsically wrong with the culture and I wanted other people who were in our industry to go, it is okay to say no because I knew that if I had seen somebody doing that, and again, I think like you say, it's about that age. Like there's, nobody's got the same recovery.

Nobody. But, but I do think that, again, I, I easily could have come into recovery eight years before I came in, right? Like, I add an extra year, I feel every time I get an extra year. It used to be 3, 4, 5. But, you know, because you get a bit more honest with yourself and then you're like, oh yeah. To be fair. Um, and I mean, I, I, as we both know, kind of mutual people that are also very similar ages, and I just think like.

Wow. How incredible to have the rest of your life ahead of you to not just be in recovery, but to, it's like you say, it's those other parts. It's the putting down the drink, the drugs, the, the sex, whatever it is, and then going, right, let's get dirty. What have we actually got here? That's the big piece. What am I, what a gift, 

Lauren: what am I running from?

Like let it find you and. When it does like be supported and. Face it. Like, yeah, it's possible. And that's, that's what I want to say with the book, that like, it is possible. Like I, I do not shy from the, uh, like something that, uh, made me feel that recovery wasn't for me was because I, and I do understand that I was reading them with bias now, but like, I'd read, uh, quit lit and just be like, why are they just talking about the good stuff?

I'm in hell. Mm-hmm. Like, and, and uh, so I wanted to, and I understand why, because you need to sell sobriety. 'cause it's hard. Um, but like I, uh, you know, I wanted to write something that's just like very honest about if you've had an eating disorder before, that might come up. If you've struggled with self-injury before, that might come up.

If you've experienced sexual violence before, those memories are gonna come back. Get the support you need and know from my experience that like you will be okay. Like I, I pro like you will be okay. And, and that's, that's kind of the hopeful message that I wanted to give. Like, I did not get sober for a very long time because I thought that those feelings would kill me and they didn't.

And I really, really wanna share that. 

Shell: Yeah, that's beautiful. And so true. And find your tribe. And you know, whether it, you find them on Instagram, you find them in a 12 step program, you find them in your community center, you know, just get in touch and. Be around people. The last question, and then I will release you to the world.

Um, the question I ask everybody is, uh, you know, what does recovery mean to you? 

Lauren: Mm. Recovery to me is restoring what is mine and giving back what isn't. 

Shell: It's nice. 

Lauren: Yeah, it's interesting because I, I felt like, you know, I, I, when I went into recovery, I wasn't rebuilding a life 

Shell: I was 

Lauren: building, like I was building a life, but there was a restoration process because I, I had lost my soul.

Like my soul had snapped. It was gone, and that's what I had to restore. I had to just. Call my soul back and find a life. Then that reflected that so that, yeah, restoration and rebuilding. 

Shell: Beautiful. Absolutely. Exactly what I would expect from a stunning writer. A wordsmith. Thank you. Very. Yeah. Such as yourself.

Um, Lauren, I could talk to you for another 78 days, but I short, um, because people will have things to say about that. But thank you so much. I know you're very busy and I really appreciate your time and, uh, I can't wait to read the book and I'll learn the title of it as well 'cause that would be probably quite useful.

Uh, thank you so much. 

Lauren: I have a friend who calls it, um, his, like my, my, one of my closest friends who's like. Such a supportive friend. He physically cannot remember the name of my book. Like he's, he calls it like how to lose a lost soul in 10 days, just every time it's something different is like, where do all the lost souls 

Shell: go?

You like, again, not the title, but thank you. Yeah, no, it's um, I dunno, I dunno what, what, what's, well again, what's wrong with me? But we, that will save that for another podcast episode listeners, um, thank you so much and congratulations on the book and uh, yeah, I wish you all the luck bestsellers list.

Let's do this.