We Recover Loudly – Personal Recovery and Mental Health Stories

S3 Episode 09 Iain Anderson: Recovering Loudly … Trauma, Truth-Telling & Turning Pain Into Punchlines

• Shell Righini • Season 3 • Episode 9

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In this raw, riotous, and deeply moving episode of We Recover Loudly, Shell is joined by writer, comedian, and former homeless addict Iain Anderson, creator of the critically acclaimed one-man show Traumedy: A Guide to Being a Fabulous Homeless Addict.

Together, they explore what it means to survive addiction, homelessness, identity loss, shame and manage to turn it all into a sell-out comedy show.

From growing up in working-class Scotland to hitting rock bottom on the streets of Barcelona, Iain shares:

  • The trauma of addiction (not just what causes it — but what it costs)
  • His battle with identity in the queer community and beyond
  • Why honesty in recovery is more powerful than perfection
  • Learning to parent yourself, find your voice, and build real connection
  • The grief of losing fake families — and the joy of building chosen ones
  • How laughter can shrink shame and break the silence

If you’ve ever felt like you had to become someone else just to survive, or that sobriety meant giving up who you are then this conversation will challenge, validate, and inspire you.

CONNECT WITH IAIN : 

@iainanderson.comedy

https://iainandersoncomedy.com/tour-dates/

https://www.edfringe.com/tickets/whats-on/traumedy-a-guide-to-being-a-fabulous-homeless-addict

For more information on We Recover Loudly and to reach out for speaking engagements or support email hello@werecoverloudly.com

@werecoverloudly
www.werecoverloudly.com


Shell: Hello and welcome to this week's episode of We Recover Loudly. Today I am joined by the rather wonderful Ian Anderson, a comedian and a writer whose one man show Trauma, A Guide to being a fabulous homeless addict turns his raw real life experiences into powerful, laugh out loud storytelling from addiction and homelessness to recovery and self-discovery.

Um, Ian tackles really heavy topics, but with honesty, heart, and uh, wicked sense of humor. Uh, his work is a masterclass in using comedy to break stigma and start real conversations. Right up my street, as you can imagine. Um, and we will be diving into his journey, his show, and really kind of talking about that healing power of laughter.

Um, but before all of that, Ian, how are you? Welcome. 

Iain: Hello. Thank you for having me on. Yeah. Oh, 

Shell: it's so good to have you here. I was gonna say, well, like we met because you slid into my dms, but we actually did it out in the open, didn't we? 

Iain: Right in front of DJ Fat Tony. Uh, and if he's watching, I, I'm trying to manifest him as my friend.

Uh, and so I saw your post and I was like, I love him so much. He's my kinda recovery, you know? Oh, 

Shell: he really is. Oh. And I mean, like that, we're getting right into it really. Like he is such a icon of getting better 

mm-hmm. 

Shell: Looking after self, but not changing who he is. Being yourself. 

Iain: Yeah. Being yourself. And 

Shell: I mean, I, for me, I know I just always felt such a pressure.

The sobriety meant I had to, I was grateful to be losing quite a lot of the stuff, like mm-hmm. The trauma and all of that. But, you know, you didn't, I didn't wanna have to now become a new person and you know, again, that's why we initially connected. 'cause it was like, hang on a minute. You were basically singing from my, from my hymn sheet, but, uh, 

Iain: they just said the word cunt all over it.

Shell: Yeah. That will be the next, uh, trady 

Iain: cunt extended edition. 

Shell: Oh. Oh, I'm so there. Well, I mean, take us back to when you were a We cunt. Yes. Because you're Scottish. So I'll do my best. Scottish when you are a we cunt, what was it like? Where did you grow up, Glasgow? Was it 

Iain: just, I say Glasgow. I grew up in a town called Port Glasgow, which is famous for boat building and not very much, I mean, it's a, it's a working class area, like a lot of, you know, central Scotland and, um.

Yes. I grew up there. It's a, I think it's about 10,000 people now. When I was a kid, it was only like less than 20,000. Wow. So it's one of those places where you drink or you drink? I think, yeah. I mean it's, you know, I grew up around a lot of that, you know? Mm-hmm. 

Shell: It's just typical 

Iain: Scotland. Yeah. 

Shell: Well, I was gonna say, it's, it's that obviously that stereotype, but it's also that typical kind of working class background, you know?

Yeah. Incredibly hardworking people. Mm-hmm. Really manual work, drink. At the end of the day, 

Iain: we do not do sick days in my family. So even with me being a, like, you know, a complete disaster, and I don't know whether it's helpful or harmful if, if you've had this, but you don't bother the doctor. Um, and so we just, I've, even now I, I'm almost eight years sober and I, my head has to be hanging off for me to go to the doctor.

So I like in that way. Growing up in a working class area made me incredibly hardworking. Um, but I also rewarded myself, uh, incredibly hard, isn't it? So I think it's like that thing where a lot of people, even when they're in their active addiction, can do quite well because we're really one, or it's like one or the other.

Were like puppies, you know, whether they're wide awake or we're completely passed out, you know? 

Shell: Oh God. Yeah. I mean, anyone who thinks being an addict is easy. It's fucking hard work. 

Iain: The admin. The admin shift. Oh, 

Shell: literally the book Balancing the social stuff.

I mean, but I was about to say jokes aside, but that's, that's the whole point of this entire episode, so don't say that. Um, but it, it's hard work, you know? Yeah. Like, and just being, I, I love that your show is called Trauma because mm-hmm. Um, some of the things that I don't think we talk about enough is actually the trauma of being an addict.

Like yeah. We talk about the trauma that may have caused it. Mm-hmm. We then celebrate when we're eight years sober and things like that. Mm-hmm. But just being in that addiction and the things that we have to do for that, I mean, you've shared very openly about that really dark time. I mean, over to you, Ian.

How was it? 

Iain: Oh, well, fabulous. Uh, I think the, the. Funny thing is, I really love that you just said that, like the trauma of being an addict, because I've always had a little bit even up when you said it, I kinda was like, I have a disconnect about that. Mm-hmm. Because I think sometimes I didn't always buy the grateful addict thing.

I think that sometimes. Like your sober day is the anniversary of the worst day of your life. Right. And so when I, I didn't get clean right away. Like I was in and out for like six months, um, until I really got it. And my last hurrah wasn't even my worst night out. I was just exhausted. I'd actually been through worse before.

So like, if I was going to dial back at, at, I am a comedian and, and I wasn't always a comedian. I, I, uh, started doing comedy in July, 2023. So I'm quite new because I'm an addict. A year later I took a show to the Edinburgh Festival .

Shell: Netflix special 2026. That's, 

Iain: that's what we're gaming for .

And um, but I had this like, you know, the first six years I was sober, people were telling me I should do comedy. And they've told me my whole life actually to do it. But it's one of those things where I think I was always that person that sat in the bar room. And said I could do things, but the, I, I didn't.

The idea of failure was 

huge 

Iain: to me in, in active addiction. Like I never went for it. Like why run if you're not gonna win the Olympics? I was one of them. And so I did a comedy writing class and after my first open mic, I said to a friend of mine, a Shity knot. I said to her, my friend Sylvia, who I always name drop next year I'm going to quit my job and take a show to the Edinburgh Festival.

And she says, I know you well. And a year later what I did was I took six months out, I had a pretty good job in recovery. I was very lucky, um, unpaid leave, like a sabbatical. And I took the show Tedra and then in January there I went back to work and I was like, I can't do this anymore. So this is now actually my full-time job and I'm tour the show around Europe and like.

I've taken something that I couldn't talk about and turned it into something that I'm so healed from that I can not only talk about it, but it, it's not about me. It really helps other people. So the show's about the mess, my active addiction left me living on the streets of Barcelona where I live now.

Not the streets in a house. And, uh, but like, I think people must think unless they're not in recovery, how does that happen? You know? Mm-hmm. And so I wanted to give like a idea of how someone educated, normal, grew up in the right part of the world. Unfortunately, the right skin color had all the advantages to thrive, right?

Um, and ended up living in a foreign country by addiction alone. And the weird thing was when I end up living on the streets, it was the one of the best and worst times of my life. I talk about a woman I lived in the streets with Holly. She died a couple of years after I got clean Canadian woman. And she's kinda like the keystone of the story for me because I could have been her and she wanted so much to live and I just wanted to kill myself at the end of my using.

And I, I'm in recovery and I am living. And she died by accidental drug overdose with a family in Canada that loved her and wanted her to go home. I have a family that doesn't want anything to do with me, and that's the thing. It's like we don't get to decide who gets the gift. And I've realized like I, I was really hesitant about sharing this story, but the first time I ever did it last year.

I made that kinda conscious choice that if someone came up to me and says, I, I feel so sorry for you, I would never do it again. It's the wrong idea. I think there's too much of that online, like victim explaining, I don't need any more attention. Right. Uh, but I'm like, if I tell this story and it becomes about me, I've made a mistake.

And actually the first time I told the story, a woman came up to me at the end, she's a comic and says, just two weeks ago I had to call Samaritans 'cause I had designs all my life. What you said tonight meant so much to me. And then when I was in Edinburgh, someone came up to me and says, I have a problem with drugs.

Can you help me? Like just like, this is what it's all about. Right? Mm-hmm. Um, and I took so much energy outta the universe while I was in my addiction that it feels like a privilege to give a little bit back, you know? 

Yeah. And to 

Iain: be really me, you know? Like to not lose myself to still be that same in Anderson that was doing drugs, but just like a better version of that.

There was nothing wrong with that guy. He was just super sick. 

Shell: That, and I actually really love that you just, that statement there, there was nothing wrong with that guy. Mm-hmm. And again, I think that there is a, a dialogue, some of it's self-imposed, but again, depending on how you get recovered as well.

And you know, there's some different programs that, um, and I talk that I do a 12 step, but, you know, sometimes I do struggle with the You were wrong. You were bad. And again, you know, if we look at the way that Alex are betrayed in the media, yeah, it's changing a little bit. But yeah, it's not, not that much.

There's such a negativity around it, um, that it's really difficult, I think. Mm-hmm. One of the hardest things for me when it came to recognizing I needed help was associating myself with what I had become. And I remember when I started the podcast, which is about two years ago, um, even then, I'm on a podcast talking about recovery, sharing my story.

And yet. I still didn't wanna say that I was an addict. 

Yeah. 

Shell: And you are like, hang on a minute. Like, how much more do you need around you? And yet, but still like that word and that association was really challenging. And a bit like yourself with um, you know, the comedy show, this whole podcast kind of journey.

I started it out and, and potentially. Maybe, probably shouldn't have started it out as early as I did because I wasn't anywhere near as through the pain as I am now. And I definitely used it a little bit as a platform to like a cathartic platform, you know, to process it and to almost externally go through all of that.

But, you know, but the same, you know, I said when I started the podcast, if one person reaches out and says that, you know, they've changed something about their relationship, then it's a win. And you know, there's a win's been at least. Yeah, at least one. 

Yeah, 

Shell: there has been two, so it's all been worth it . The two years of joy.

Um, but I mean, what did you do then before you were a comedian, what was your job beforehand? 

Iain: I was working in insurance. Uh, obviously, uh, I was managing a team and an insurance company for travel medical emergencies. For travel insurance. And I'll be honest with you, right. When I was nine months clean and sober, I was looking for, I was teaching piano, like I'd, I'd played piano when I was younger and I'd, I'd kind of forgotten I could play the piano until someone asked me to teach them.

I was like, oh, yeah, I can actually, I was teaching piano walking dogs for the first nine months. Like, I had very little materially I'd lost, you know, I had a good job in it and stuff when I was in active addiction, and I put it all up my nose, you know, and, um, I've snorted a small flat in Chelsea probably.

And, uh, I know what did you do? And, uh, what'd you do All your money

Shell: And knowingly it's not gotten any more valuable, like No, 

Iain: It's just devalued over time. Yeah. Um, and um, yeah, then what happened was I was looking for work. And I was like, I'll do anything. Right. And I got offered a couple of call center jobs and, uh, they were all in the evening.

And a friend of mine says, you're not gonna be able to take care of your recovery if you're working at nights. And I'd been very lucky 'cause I'd been offered a job that was a lot of money and I, I'm so glad I caught this 'cause I was six months clean and I said to a friend of mine. Uh, I can go and do this job.

It means traveling twice a month, but I'll make loads of money. And he said, but you were very specific that you didn't trust yourself to travel yet . Mm. Uh, and work. And I says, yeah, but it's odds of money. And people will think I'm okay. And I heard myself say thank, and I was like, oh my God. I, I wanna appear well and not be well.

Yeah. And so I kibosh that was really struggling again for another three months. And then I got offered this job in a call center and the team that I would end up managing. And what's really funny is I talk about this in the show that in my active addiction. There was a period of my time where I'd stopped working to look after my little dog rascal.

Right. And then my addiction really skyrocketed. And when my friends got worried about me, I started lying and telling them I had a job. I made up a colleague called Carol. I gave her a whole personality. She was a total bitch. Uh, she sounds like a 

bitch. 

Iain: She was a bitch. Like, hashtag cancel Carol. Right. And I got, and honestly, and then I got, I, I ended up like, um, it all kinda came out.

I ended up homeless and there was no job. And then I brought her back from the dead for a second imaginary job and not honestly. And then when I started working in this call center. Three months later, I got a promotion. Right. And I was too scared to tell anybody because I've lied so much about getting promotions in my imaginary jobs.

Right? And I don't know if you've ever had an imaginary job, but they do not pay salaries. Right? You also don't pay tax. Uh, and but then I also was working with a woman called Carol. And so my life was on the up and I couldn't tell anybody because I thought they were all gonna go, he's on it again. Like it was so funny.

Um, and so I did that for, I was very grateful, like honestly, because this job, it sounds boring, right? But basically say you went on holiday and you had the medical emergency and you had to contact your insurance. It was our team that dealt with that. And honestly, it was spirituality working through me because you are helping people having the worst time of their life.

And I was like, I can be. The manager I always wanted to have, and I tried so much to work the principles of the program through my work and I, and it was such, I remember thinking towards the end of my job, I stopped, you know, you stopped being grateful. Right. And I, I wasn't loving it and I knew I wanted to move into comedy, but I had this moment where I was writing the show where I was like, you used to live on the streets and thought you were going to die there.

Then you thought you would never get a job. All the things I said would never ha I'll never get a job again. I'll never find love. I'll never live on my own, I'll never have any money in the bank. The best thing that happened to me after I get clean is I was wrong about everything and I hope I continue to be wrong about myself.

Yeah. Because I kept myself so small and I have an amazing partner and I have not only had a great job, but being able to walk away from that great job and start a new great job like. How lucky are we? You know? Yeah. 

Shell: And it's amazing, like you say, it's, it's, it's such a, a contrast to like, I mean, I'm not sure about you, but my drinking didn't really spiral outta control until a little bit later.

So in a strange way, that almost was a curse, because again, you kind of convince yourself when you hear people going, oh, I was a teen and I had a drink of vodka at 15, and that was me. Yeah. And I was like, oh, I didn't, I mean, food was probably, food and work were my first addictions and my first, um, difficult relationships.

And then the alcohol working in hospitality, you know. It was just always there. And yeah, it wasn't until that kind of late later time, but the, I, again, I'm not sure it's irony, but Well, yeah, it is. The irony is that I thought I was giving up this huge, colorful life, and yet, like you've just described, it was so tiny and I can pretend like, oh, it was only tiny for the last two years.

Before that. It was great. The more recovered you get, the more you go it. It wasn't, yeah, it wasn't, it was tiny. It was fake. Yeah. It was completely, it was like literally living on, on eggshells. But not because of anyone around you, because of yourself. 'cause like you say, you're constantly have lied. What have I said there?

Where am I next? You know, it's 

Iain: exhausted. Exhausted. Trying to remember. And also just having to start new relationships again. I could not, I've had the same best friend all my life. He's now in a program to cope with me. Um, but. He, we've been friends since we were four. I'm 40. Oh. And so we grew up together.

Our families have known each other since we were before we were born. And he has always stuck by me, but only because I think we met when we were so young. I'm like his family, you know? He's like my family. Anyone in my, my twenties. Gone. You know, like they, they just, those bridges were burned, you know? And so it's like, I think you've got that glimmer of hope in your eyes when you're younger.

But I think as well, like I said this to you in a message, I, I saw you'd done another podcast, and I love what you said about hospitality, because I think people move through looking to be part of things. Mm-hmm. Like, you want to be part of something. Um, you know, I live in Barcelona. There's lots of people that come.

Foreign students, they all go out drinking and jogging together. And when I moved to Barcelona, it's a very young place, as in 50-year-old skateboarding, like, you're not young, but you think, you know, it's a lot of that. And, um, I remember when I got clean thinking, I would never have a good time again. I'd never go out dancing.

I'd never, and your life shifts. But then I realized that. My big problem was just being a gay guy. You know, I came out when I was young, when I was about 14 in the nineties. Uh, I do a joke about that saying that actually makes me a national hero in Scotland. Uh, and that there's a statue of me in the middle of Glasgow called Run, faggot Run.

Uh, I didn't know my mom could sculpt. It's a very good joke. And so 

Shell: I've actually got a gay friend from Glasgow who is younger than you, and I'm gonna call him afterwards and say, you owe Ian a thank you 

Iain: Yes. 

Shell: Who's also in the program. Yeah. 

Iain: It's actually that the phone is just me spewing water. Uh, both end.

He 

Shell: walks. So that you may run. Yeah. Yeah. 

Iain: Absolutely immense. And, uh. And then So you could, so you can shimmy and um, and yeah, but the thing about it was then was, you know, I had, I don't know whether I would've identified as even having a problem if I still lived in Glasgow. 'cause even now when I go back I'm like, whoa.

Like there's not really anything to do in Spain. I'm very lucky I can go out until late and just buy an ice cream or whatever. You know? There's things to do at night mm-hmm. That don't revolve around drinking. Culturally in the UK there's a lot of boozing, but particularly at that time, gay men were famous for, there was no social media, so nobody was gonna film you making an arts yourself.

Right. It was your word against theirs. You could dance on the bars, you could go out every night of the week. And to be honest with you, if you didn't do that, you didn't see your friends. And years later, cut to me, bottoming out in Barcelona, hanging out in gay saunas with a bunch of re rebates. Well, when I lost all my money in my home, none of them came and looked for me.

And it's like. I really believe that there's we're, I was sold in the nineties, early two thousands. There's one way to be gay. You're flamboyant, you're fabulous, you know about fashion. You have to love drag queens. You have to do this. I, I just don't buy that. We can't all be like, you know, you come out as gay and this is who you vote for.

This is the music you listen to. We're told what to be in. Those labels are very dangerous because most people are not fanboy, and some people wanna sit in the sofa and pick their nose. I love being at home with my, me and my boyfriend wanna sit on the couch with my Jack Russell, who's 10 years old and fart.

Like, that's it, right? We've, we've, we've smashed it. And I think that when you have who you're pretending to be and who you really are, that gap. Is often filled by substance abuse. Like that's where you need to get you. You know, I think about all the celebrities that I've had when we've found out their stories afterwards, Amy Winehouse, Whitney Houston, they had to pretend to be something for everybody else, and everything in the middle was drinking drugs.

And yeah, I really think that I tried to play the part of the good gay guy and I could not keep up, you know? 

Shell: Yeah. Gosh, that's 

Iain: so powerful. You have to, it's like we're told it's a community, right? But when you get clean and sober, where have they gone? 

Shell: Mm-hmm. And, and I, I wish I had the statistic, but I can't remember it.

Um, but I, I know that the, the, um. Instances of addiction within that community. Huge. Is huge and huge. You know, again, this isn't a podcast about task steps. There are lots of different ways of getting recovered. Yeah. But that is how I've done it. And the reason I say that is 'cause I've met so many people, um, who are, um, who identify all across the rainbow.

And it's really in, it's really sad, but it's also, it's very, um, it's very relatable. Yeah. It's relatable to know what it's like to grow up feeling different, odd, mm-hmm. And not have community. It's relatable to like then think you found and create this fake family, much like we do in hospitality and other jobs.

Um, but really in hospitality specifically. And like you say, it's almost like. Well for me, when I became, when I got caught out with drinking at work, it wasn't that I just lost my job, it was that I'd lost my community, my identity. Mm-hmm. And much like you've just shared that I think is was more destabilizing.

Mm-hmm. At the time than the thought of not using and drinking anymore. 

Iain: Like even after I got off the streets, like I went to live with a woman who be befriended me and I, she would give me money to go and work for a job and I was still not very well. And I would go back to the park that had just left to hang out with my friends there 'cause they were all I had left.

Right. And that's the thing, it's like I've made my life, I mean, it was a very, I'm not recommending be homeless before you get clean, but before that it was only gay guys in a gay bar. We didn't even have any each other's phone numbers. It was like pre WhatsApp. We just all met in that barn. We kinda knew each other.

And I thought they were my friends until I stopped going to that bar. And it's, we tell ourselves, you know, these colleagues are my best friends. And you realize you've had very superficial Mm. You know, Brene Brown talks about hot wiring, um, friendships through kind of like shared trauma and blah, blah, blah.

And, and I, and I really understand that because in recovery I've found like insane amounts of love from people. Um, I'm very lucky, you know, I, I told myself in the first few years of my recovery, I only dated Colombian. So I went straight from Coke to just Columbia men, right? It wasn't the cocaine, it was the culture I was enjoying.

And, um, I was, and they were always younger than me and I turned into a bit a stereotype for a while. I was a bit Daddy Anderson. And then I'd given up on love, really. And I thought to myself, Ian, look at your life. Like you've, you, you've had a sliding doors moment. And when I totally let go of that part of my life.

I met my boyfriend who is gonna be our one year anniversary this weekend. He's coming to Paris where I'm now to beat me. Yeah. And he's not what I would've chose for myself because I probably wouldn't have thought I was worthy 'cause he's so good and kind and respectable and all the things that, even six years into recovery, I wasn't, I was still work I was doing on myself.

And I think that when I imagined what life was gonna be like as a gay man, when I was younger, it wasn't what I have now. But I couldn't have imagined feeling this good like and feeling this normal. And I think that what we all, I know people hate that word, but when I was younger, when we were striving for equality, it wasn't to stand out, it was to just be boring.

I wanted to. Be as interesting as my mom and dad's relationship, as in my sexuality doesn't even come up. Right. Yeah. And so I think sometimes being out in the gay community, and no disrespect to my brother and sisters out there, right. But sometimes when we're saying we're being loud and proud and happy, there's so much drugs involved.

I don't believe them. I don't believe them. Yeah. Because I know what I was singing and dancing and shouting, and. I was, not all of them, but I was quite disappointed with what happened when I started wanting to better my mental health and get outta that. 

I left 

Iain: a lot of them behind and they're still there and I, I'll take their calls if they need help, but.

I'd also had to grieve what I thought was this family. 

Shell: Yeah. And I think that a lot of, especially like younger, the younger generation as it were, um, that are coming into recovery and they're talking a lot about chemsex, which is, you know, again, I'm, I'm the same age as you, so what, but I, the culture, what is all this?

Um, and, but again, like the addiction of that instant gratification. Mm-hmm. And like you say, you've got Grindr, you've got Chemsex. Yeah. And it's just, that was the thing that they found harder to walk away from 

Yeah. 

Shell: Than drugs and cocaine. And I'm just sat here like, what, what do you mean? 

Iain: Yeah, 

Shell: and again, I guess that bounds, it binds you even more, I suppose maybe that, 

Iain: well, literally from CO to Arse, can we say that?

That's for you boys. But I 

don't Google that. 

Iain: I wasn't, I was very lucky I wasn't. I went to gay saunas, but I wasn't really into the, to the, into meth or anything like, which is weird. I was like, I'll take it or leave it. I was like a coconut alcohol person, but I classy 

Shell: like me 

Iain: classy, real highbrow, you know?

Right. And eats at Greg's snorts in Columbia. And, uh, 

Shell: keep your meth though. Keep your 

Iain: meth. And, but the thing was, I've had lots of friends who have, it's so attached to sex. Yes. And so they don't, it's a culture and I'm, yeah. Honest to God, so grateful that it wasn't part of my story, because I see the struggle, you know, I see people being like, how am I gonna have sex again?

How am I going to do that? And I'm like, you have to think about not doing those things for a while until you could trust yourself. And, you know, when I came in. To recovery. I was so sick of myself that I was really done. I did not wanna date. I did not like, even my hand was like, turn off the lights.

You're a hoer. Like, it was just like, I, I lost all that. But some people, like, it is amazing to watch people put those things before their own health. You know, going into those spaces where those things are happening and believing that you will be able to go in there and not do that. 

Hmm. 

Iain: Um, I've, you know, I'm, I'm lucky enough to work with a couple of people in recovery who remind me of that.

And, uh, and watching their struggle makes me so grateful that it wasn't part of my story. It is not an easy thing to come out of, and it's a dangerous narrative that people are being fed. That there's only one way to be gay. Yeah. And I think that a lot of people coming up in the scene are internalizing that.

And actually there was a lot of homophobia about when I was younger. Mm. But. And actually now with a lot of acceptance and invi and invisibility, we've created a sub-community within the gay community that's telling people that if you don't do this, you're boring. I mean, I used to think I was never in an open relationship.

And in my thirties, even in recovery, I was like, do I have to be in an open relationship to be in a relationship like I was? I was starting to believe that there was something wrong with me. And my message to everyone is learn to know yourself and stick to it no matter what. Mm. 

Like 

Iain: be yourself no matter what.

And that doesn't always mean you're tits hanging out at a gang bang, doing drugs you don't want to do. 

Shell: Yeah. Yeah. Not anymore anyway. Not anymore. 2025. Um, but I think it's like you were saying, like the gap between the persona that you are presenting and the one that you are, and you might take that drugs and alcohol and all that, but you're right.

Unless you really start to close that gap at it, you will then, even in recovery, you can throw in all of these other things. And, um, I think that, but yeah, it's just, it's really interesting. I lived with, um, a very, very dear friend who I went to uni with in London, um, like, gosh now, eight years ago or something like that.

And we lived in Voxel, so anyone who's there we go, you know, where we lived. Yeah. And, um, and, you know, of a Friday night would disappear and would be back on a Sunday and, you know, walk through the front door if he'd remember to shut it and lock it, um, walk through the front door, you know, bottle of, uh, bottle of sparkling water in hand, and he'd just be, and it was so normalized that, yeah.

Even me. And, and I'm, I'm, I'm a very, very prudish girl. Um, very, very sensible prudish girl. Um, so I was, but I even, I was just started to become quite desensitized to it. Yeah. And just thought it was very normal for my friend to, you know, we'd sit up in my bedroom singing Bonnie Tyler, you know. Yeah. Doing drugs, having a lovely time.

I'd think he goes to bed, but he didn't, he would just pop out down the road and then come back an hour later. And I like, and it's, it's that desensitization to that behavior and you 

Iain: never, you'd never do that with a drink or drug in your body. That's the thing. I can honestly say since I get clean, that the idea of going to a place like that and hanging out in a, so it is just, some people do do it sober, but maybe there's, you know, like it is just, 

yeah.

Iain: It's a whole other world to me. And I think that like, is this, and again. I'm not trying to kink shame anyone, but 

Shell: mm-hmm. No, not at all. The rep, 

Iain: the representation of gay male culture is often correlated with sex. Always. And is that who we want to be? 

Yeah. Like, '

Iain: cause that's like, you know, it's like when I was younger and I came out then, you know, like the early two thousands.

If you had a gay friend that was like, it's my gay friend, will he take me shopping? And you kind of think, yeah. Is that what I'm meant to do? And it's like, mm, we've evolved. Surely where being gay is the footnote on all the other things. I'm, you know. Yeah. And even within comedy, like, you know, we run an LGBT night in, um, in, uh, Barcelona where I live.

My friend Kim Skinner runs it and it's an amazing night. But also, I don't want to just be a gay comic. Like I'm happy to be on a lineup in any club and hold my own because it's not my gimmick, right? Mm-hmm. Uh, I just am a good, I wanna be a good comedian who happens to be gay. Right. 

Shell: Yeah. And I think again, it's the same with the whole sobriety thing and you know, sometimes I have also pushed against it a bit because, you know, it's like I can remember doing my first meeting, um.

Properly. This is once my, I mean, I, I lied about, well, not, I didn't lie. I, I went to AA and uh, and didn't tell anybody about it for like months before my rock bottom. And I can remember my family being like, oh, you should go to this meeting. I'm like, I've been going for nine months. They're like, oh. 'cause I was ashamed to say that I needed help.

Yeah. Um, and I can remember vividly coming down from like, you know, 'cause it was on Zoom and being like. I, I'm not gonna become one of those recovery people though. You know? That's, there's, that's not the only part about me. I mean, and then obviously fast forward 24 hours and I was probably the secretary and, you know, sold the bride because that's what we are, like we were saying, we're Alex, you know?

Yeah. Cult. 

Iain: I wanted to be a call. Yeah. Literally 

Shell: within, with, with within a week I was like, yeah, yeah. Starting podcast, you know, I've got merch. Um, but like. I do sometimes. I, I get that. And again, I think that's also comes though with, I've got, I've like three and a half years sober just over, you know?

Congratulations. Well, thank you. But I think that also comes with that time and that growth and that, that it's okay that you might need to grab onto a character in the beginning if that's Yeah. The character is a healthy one. And if so, Michelle had to run the show for those first two years, then that's all right.

And I am now slowly getting more comfortable with just being it a footnote, like you say. I love that. Yeah. It's a footnote to who I am. 

Yeah. But I do really 

Shell: think that, I do really feel for, you know, my friends who are, who are gay, that, that is even just saying like, oh, here's my friend, they're gay. It's like, you know, I don't walk around and go, oh, here's my friend Susan.

She's a hetero. Yeah. But she likes it. Doggy style. Yeah. You know, like, why, why is it that you, we, we just naturally feel the need and it's not me trying to. 

Iain: I think you're right. No, but we, I mean, it is interesting because we, we, that the gay community also does is part of the problem. So we will, I've been part of it and I've told myself that story and I've also been like, call yourself a real gay f you know, it's like I had a friend when we were much younger, like maybe 20 years ago, me and my best friend had this other friend who decided to stop drinking for health reasons.

So I says, well, if you can't come clubbing, you can't be our friend. Like, just like that, like this was my friend and 

I was 

Iain: like, well, we go out clubbing, we go to the polo lounge, we go to the gay club, and that's what we do. And if you can't come, you can't. And not, there was no room for difference, right?

Mm-hmm. And I think we tell ourself we're free when we're conforming. Like quite, you know, uh, I. We, you know, there's always the lesbian jokes that are, the lesbians that are Ikea and the men are promiscuous and blah, blah, blah. And I get that. But then it's like, I had to ask myself that question when I got clean.

I'm like, how much is of, that is true because I lied so much in my, my using that I, the first year of my recovery obvi was me sometimes putting my hand over my mouth and tried to stop myself telling a lie. 'cause I didn't even know what the truth was anymore. And if that was true of like external things, like jobs and qualifications and then how much of that was true about the way I saw myself And the, you know, the best thing about getting clean was.

Finding out I could be anything I wanted to be. Mm. And I just had to work out who that was, you know? Yeah. 

Shell: And that there's no timer on that as well. Yeah. Which again, I feel is something I wish I'd kind of had a bit more consciousness of at the beginning, but I mean, even to the fact that like, I dress very differently now and like, I think clothing and style is quite a, an interesting one when you come into recovery.

Mm-hmm. Because, yeah. And especially actually now I'm just, I'm literally now just having my own little light bulb moment. Um, 'cause it is, it's very interesting. I've started to dress. In a weird way, I started to dress a little bit more like I did when I was in like late teens and like not quite, I'm not wearing like the parachute pants and that, but like there's almost kind of a little bit more of a return to how I used to dress in a weird way.

But I do think that, again, that kind of external identity and there was, I can remember being really upset when I first got sober about not knowing what to wear, you know? Yeah. And again, just not knowing what your place is, because when we have this character that we've built up. It's all taken away. And again, when the dialogue around bad addict, bad addicts.

So you feel a little bit like, well I better not bring any of that old stuff with me, including the outfits. 

Yeah. 

Shell: Uh, you know, and, and again, I think we don't talk about that enough. It's as far too like well done, well done 30 days, but inside you might be really struggling with what that means and where you belong.

Iain: Well, you don't, you know, most people are who are in active addiction don't have an identity that is the identity. Like true. I was very comfortable in life being everybody's problem. 

Hmm. And the 

Iain: hardest thing was to be well and not have people worry about me. I mean, I didn't realize. So I'll tell you a story.

Me and my very best friend, uh, Hiya, Fabio, he lives in Texas now 'cause he is mental and uh, uh, but we grew up together. And so when I got clean, um, I. Was going to go back to Scotland to visit him around his birthday and decided it was too soon to to travel. And about 14 months after I get clean, he came to visit me in Barcelona and we went to CEEs, which is like the Brighton of Spain.

And he loves bears. So we went to the bear weekend and I was like, okay, like thinking about my sobriety, I was like, we stay in a hotel, I need to have chocolate in the hotel and when I want to leave, I don't want you to ask me or beg me to stay. I just want to go. Right. 

Shell: Yeah. 

Iain: And so he said to me, uh, you know, 'cause he always, he was really into the boys, uh, and I was really into the drugs.

That was kinda how our friendship was and we didn't question it. Right. And, um. I said to mom, I'm gonna leave. And he says, oh, do you not want hook up with someone? And I went, no. And he says, why not? And I says, I don't hate myself. 

Yeah, love it. And it was the first time I'd, I'd said it. Wow. 

Iain: And I went home.

But he could not stop thinking about that right after I'd said it. 

Wow. 

Iain: And then after he got back to Scotland, he started having his own stuff going on. Because one of the things about getting clean and serene is other people have to look at their own shit. And I remembered in early recovery thinking, I pray to Joan Rivers, I said, Joan, I will lose everybody and everything, but I really want to keep my best friend.

And my dog and our lives were actually going in really opposite directions. And he started to do some counseling and look at his life. And now he's in another program of his own and. Sometimes we are talking on the phone, like it still floors me. Like I get really emotional talking about it because like he'll call up and he's like, I need to talk to you about this problem I'm having with someone in my fellowship.

And I'm like, we've done everything together in our lives, you know? Like I don't even have my mom and my dad in my life and I have him. And I think my biggest fear about changing and getting well was I was gonna get better and I was going to lose everything. You'll keep everything that matters. Yeah. And I returned to who I was as a kid, including this friendship and other, like who I was when I was a kid.

I wanted to be a star or I wanted to be a performer, I wanted to be a creative. And I was always told, don't be stupid how you're gonna make money. Mm-hmm. And what's really interesting was I've actually gone now as a comedian back to who I really am. And when you're really in flow and you always hear like those moments in recovery where the lights are green, the wind's behind you, nothing can stop you.

That has happened with me. And I also know the good times will end. And that's what recovery is all about. That when shit hits the fan, you'll turn off the fan and clean up the shit and wait for the next good time to come. So 

yeah, like 

Iain: at everything you said, just hit about finding who you are, going back to who you were, trusting that that person full a hopes and dreams and ambition was right.

And then substances and isms get in the way and we just lose ourselves and we try and become part of a community that isn't trying to keep us healthy, you know? 

Shell: Yeah. And exactly that. And side note, I wonder how many people's higher power is Joan Rivers? 'cause I reckon she's a busy old girl up there.

Iain: She's amazing. She'll let she swear and she'll even find you on Grindr. 

Shell: Oh, literally. She's amazing. Um, but I think, and, and that is again, one of the reasons that you and I bonded is that whole idea of. Community, and therefore when you are sober and feeling potentially excluded again from a narrative that is now I'm sober.

Um, I didn't lose any weight. I fucking hate everyone who did. Um, I got fibromyalgia at the same time I did, I gained 

Iain: weight. Yeah. 

Shell: Literally. So I was, um, I, I, I mean I got the chronic condition, but I also, you know, had been working in hospitality for 16 years, which is basically 16 years of an eating disorder.

Yeah. Because you don't eat for 20 hours a day. Yeah. And then you have a thousand calories and go to bed. Yeah. And so when I started working, like at a desk, and it was like, ah, three meals. Interesting. Yeah. Obviously you balloon and you could be eating the best food in the world, but if you are not used to that, I, I have no metabolism.

So that was one of the first things that I was like, okay, I am sober and I failed because I haven't lost weight because I have fibro, I can't run. And every fucker who gets sober becomes a marathon runner. Don't tell me you're running in no chance we'll end this podcast now. No. If, if to make 

Iain: this even more gay, I skip, actually I'm into jump rope.

I love a jump rope. Yeah. I 

Shell: would skip a marathon with you any day, you know? Oh, could you imagine? Um, and so there was that fail, you know, there was that fail and, you know, my, I couldn't go back to my job, so. Job identity. There you go. There's that other fail. Yeah. And, and again, you know, when you look at the kind of archetypal sober female who is very balanced and who, you know, smells like lavender and you know, wears yoga pants to the Yeah.

You know, walks something, walk the dog. I mean, my dog gets up at midday. He's worse than I am when it comes to mashing stereotypes and like, and I think it's that hence starting, we recover loudly. Hence, I know a lot of the work you do because I think that becomes very dangerous when we've already basically shed our skin and standing there full of sunburn going Where, where do I belong?

Yeah. To then again, get rejected. 

Yeah. 

Iain: Don't, whether that's 

Shell: self-imposed or not, it's a rejection. 

Iain: I think you're right. And I think at the beginning I've had friends who have been in and out of different fellowships for that same reason. I was very lucky with the people I found. Um, I do have to say that like.

There is a, because of social media, there is a kind of, um, recovery influencing happening that I think is really counterproductive to actually people getting well because it's as unrealistic as every other type of influencer. Mm-hmm. I got clean and my life got worse for a while. Right now, at the time I didn't realize that.

I look back on my year one, I'm surprised. I mean, I had nowhere to live. I was sleeping on a mattress in the floor of a fucking box room and, uh, running up debt promising I would pay the guy rent. Once I started working, no job, I was getting fatter because I was also years of a Coke addiction, and then being, yeah.

I was just apologizing to my body with food. Right. Well, you could 

Shell: finally taste food again. Yeah. 

Iain: Yeah, and then my, and then my skin cleared up and then the ice went on. I was about four years sober when the weight started to come off. But do you know what I gave myself? And I've, I've said this to people in comedy as well, some comedians, I mean, artists in general are not very well people when they're drinking and jogging, right.

And, um, I love all my comedy friends back home in Barcelona, right? Um, but some people have, and they'll don't know I'm talking about them. They have lapses, lapses of confidence. Say like, we all went to the ED fringe. No one's gonna come to my show. Nobody's gonna think that's funny. And I've had the privilege of shitting my life up the wall so hard that if the worst thing that happens to me is no one laughs at my jokes, then I am that hashtag grateful addict.

Right? Yeah. And I think for you, what you do in recovery is you get to deal with really hard stuff. 'cause your fibromyalgia would've found you drunk or not, and you absolutely would've drank yourself into nearly grave. And I'm just so, I've been so grateful that my, my stuff around my family and all the things, all the gifts that I get every year, the new, new trauma always comes up at the exact right time.

I was five years clean. My job was on the up. We were just coming outta the pandemic. Everything was happening. I was so busy and I got suicidal in recovery at five years. And I, the story I told myself was, oh, you don't feel good, but you've got a nice apartment and a boyfriend and a great job, and you have everything you prayed for.

You don't get to complain. So it didn't. Mm-hmm. 

Mm-hmm. And 

Iain: I told myself I wasn't allowed to have problems. I wasn't allowed to. Oh my God. 

Mm-hmm. How 

Iain: sick is that? And then I went to, to a meeting one night and I says, I've keep imagining killing myself. 

Mm. 

Iain: And soon as I said it, tons of people were like, how many years are you five?

Oh my God. The exact same thing happened to me. The exact same thing. Yeah. And so one of the reasons why I'm always so about everything in my show, I mean, I talk about suicide and all these things, is I've lost friends to suicide. Who we are sober and silent, but also like. We live in a world now where the last line of my show is love.

Other people like their life depends on it. 'cause my life has your life. Well, and basically I encourage people at the end of the show is love the body you've got today. 'cause it's working. You can walk. If you can walk, walk, you know if you can. But like, love what you have. Get your face on your phone. Have a real conversation with someone.

Find actual friends, right? Mm-hmm. Who will not just tell you you're fabulous all the time, but who will always will also tell you that you're, you're being a piece of shit right now and you need to wise up and you will believe them because you know, they really love you. They're not just trying to get in the way you're fun.

And what we need now more than ever with everything going on the planet is more connections. Like I get asked. Um, on a podcast a few months ago, uh, political questions about my show. I even want people who, who vote differently from me to not die of addiction. 

Mm. 

Iain: That's what I want. It doesn't care if you're homeless, uh, what color you are, your socioeconomic, like I want everyone to stay clean.

Shell: Yeah. 

Iain: Right. And then be a piece of shit. Right? Yeah. 

Shell: Don't use the alcohol as an excuse. 

Iain: Yeah. Don't use it as an excuse. And that's the thing. I think like everybody gets the right to be free of this and then decide who they want to be. 

Shell: Oh, that's so beautiful. I love that. And like, I just think as well, you know.

Last summer, which I've shared before, be many a time because I'm so passionate about it. Um, I was going through perimenopause and I'm, I'm too young to be going through pen to perimenopause. Um, you know, which weirdly enough when the doctor said that didn't cure the symptoms, bizarre. Um, and, and I had.

Fight, but like tooth and nail. Like, and when I say fight, I'm in the doctor's surgery screaming at the top of my lungs. Give me HRTI, I'm going to die. And, and it was horrendous. And now that I've been on HRT for about five months and you know, life is fucking fine, which, but side note makes it worse that I had to fight so hard.

Yeah. For something that was gonna work. But, but that's another podcast. Yeah. Um, I'd never told anybody, and even now I know that my, my family listens to this podcast. They're my, there's five listeners. Um, but even now, like I know that they don't know how hard last summer was for me and how close I was.

Not necessarily to a drink, but to just ending it. Yeah. And I find again, that language around, you know, saying like, I could have said last summer that I only had a month to live, you know? 'cause I was that down. And the reason again, I share about this is 'cause I don't, we need to talk about this more is females.

Yeah. Um, and exactly that. The reason I didn't share about it is because you do feel as an addict who is in recovery, you are not allowed to have a bad day because. You know, like, and quite rightly, and I understand why the reaction is so strong. You know, if I say to my mom, my mom and dad, oh, I'm having a, I I'm feeling a bit down, I'm having a bad day, of course they're immediately gonna go because that's their trauma.

Yeah. To over that, over to fix it. Yeah. And, 

Shell: and I really want to normalize being able to say, do you know what could really do with a fucking drink today? 

Yeah. And actually, and not have 

Shell: everybody, you know, and I get why they do it. Yeah. But at the same time, sometimes I just wanna say, do you know what I wanna fucking drink today?

Happen? 

Iain: Well, that's normal. I mean, you wouldn't be a fucking addict if you didn't think that. And I think that, you know, and I'm never worried about things. Being hard is when things are good, I need to watch. So right now I'm having a particularly good season, and so I need to, you know, I'm sharp with it.

Thank goodness. I know that. But I love what you were saying about, um. Language because I have a, you know, because of the algorithm, um, uh, we aren't allowed to say certain words and blah, blah, blah. And, and you know, there's a word that bothers me as a ex homeless person. I hate the word unhoused. And I read where it comes from and people were saying, it's to stop stigma.

And I was like, no, you. The word homeless is painful for you to say. Yeah. And it should be fucking painful. 

Shell: Yeah. 

Iain: By doing it right. And the word suicide, we have to, we're sanitizing language and a lot weird, old enough to remember life before the algorithm. 

But 

Iain: younger people, they're being told every time a word is blocked on social media, you're subconsciously putting out to young people.

Don't talk about that 'cause it's bad. And we're taking away people's vocabulary to say, it would be amazing if a young person could say, I feel suicidal. Mm-hmm. Not, I'm not feeling, uh, the vibes I might un alive myself. Like, come on. We need, words are important and the reasons why those words make us feel unwell is 'cause.

It is a horrible situation to be in, right? Mm-hmm. And so I know for me, when I started speaking very openly about the fact that yes, I'm clean and sober, but I'm having a, a moment. Mm-hmm. A lot of the shame was lifted. Shame needs silence, you know? Yes. To survive. Um, and one of the other reasons why I wanted to do my show was to, to, to put that in a live setting, you cannot be muted on stage, right?

Mm-hmm. So to have a really open dialogue about the reality of the, the decline and where it can take you using the real words, you know, a lot of swearing 'cause I'm Scottish, uh, and just like your socks, but also being able to be like, I felt that I didn't need to act on that. Yeah. And now I'm through that.

Shell: A hundred percent exactly. Like, like show that you can get through that. I mean, like, just like two days ago I had a smashing morning because, you know, it was a great morning and for no reason, and then I just suddenly just had a black cloud and I didn't know where it came from. Nothing happened. Um, the only thing I can think is that I'd be, I'm, I'm moving house and I've been waiting for the tenancy agreement to get signed.

It finally got signed. Um, so it's a good thing. So maybe for some reason there was a bit of a, an unconscious like emotional hangover from it or something, but I just felt horrible. Yeah. And again, that's that kind of like, I love the fact that. When we talk about being a grateful addict, it's because I've now got the tools to deal with things that I never used to.

And I didn't push myself. I went to bed, I watched White Lotus, got a little bit more depressed. Nice. Um, I forced myself to eat. 'cause when I don't feel good, I actually stop eating. But I forced myself to have a decent, like, I had like a salad and some rice and stuff like that. Mm-hmm. Um, and it's just all these little things.

And the next day, weirdly enough, it felt good. And not only did I feel good, I'm smug as fuck that I pulled myself out of it as well. You know? And even that, and again, I think the worst thing is that when we feel bad, we don't share. And then we add shame to it, you know? And we wonder 

Iain: if we wanna feel worse.

I mean, like mm-hmm. I'm only talking about my own experience as an addict. It might not be as general as I think, but it's like you're sad. You listen to a sad song to feel sad or you know, when people are going through a breakup, they're like, I'm going to die. I got really into the work of a hypnotherapist called Marissa P, and she's called, oh, yes.

Yeah. I am enough. I, I'm actually became friends with one of her therapists who lives in Scotland now. Is hilarious. Like I got, it was like one of those moments where my heart was so broken at the end of a situationship that I got so desperate I had to do something about it. And I've been trying to read the book for a year and I finally read it and she's like, why would you talk to it is just about how you talk to yourself.

So I felt like such a goofball every morning I was getting up and I was saying, I am enough. And it like, and then it worked. Like this guy, I, he just looked like a big bag of shit after a while and things started to really happen. And the way I talk to myself is different. And it's funny because my natural reaction when I'm in active addiction was when good times were happening, I was always like, let's see how long this lasts.

Mm-hmm. And when things were going bad, I was like, this is never going to end. Kill yourself and. When you were explaining the experience you had, your natural reaction is to not take care of yourself. Like not eating when you're struggling. But actually I've had to learn to parent myself in recovery and be like, I feel like crap.

I don't feel well. Get up, have fucking ginger tea. Eat a really good meal. Don't fucking corpse in your bed all day and like, get, go for a walk. I have a dog, so I have to walk at least once and then get up and get moving. And it's so like, my, my like probably your brain as well, but a lot of is in recovery are like, when I feel bad, I choose to feel worse.

I like things that hurt me. Mm-hmm. And when you upset me, I hurt myself. And when you were saying about how you just signed the tenancy agreement, you suddenly felt really sad. Like, that happened to me. I got my first fight in recovery when I was like two years sober and I got so excited. I just wanted to blow my fucking life up.

Yeah. Like, it's 

Iain: like that thing of being like, oh my god, good things are happening and not worth it. You 

Shell: know, that's so true. Yeah. 'cause I've been looking for, for a Do you think you're, yeah. Well I've been looking for this flat for a long time. I live in Bourmouth. I have a pup. And, um, and Bournemouth ironically, because there's fucking dogs everywhere.

I don't, they obviously think all these dogs are like homeowners because no one will rent to anyone who has a dog. And it is taken me literally five months to find a place that will rent, um, with him. Because I was like, am I gonna have, I'm, I was almost gonna have to leave Bournemouth. 'cause I was like, well, it's either I leave Bournemouth or I get rid of my emotional support pub.

Yeah. And I mean, like, he's the only thing holding me together. So, um, and I found this place and it has a garden. And that was the other thing I was desperate for, was to have outdoor space where I live right now, the windows don't open. And last summer. Perimenopause windows that don't open. Probably actually looking back was probably a good thing 'cause I wasn't in the best head space, but, um, and so, yeah, like it's been a real slog to just find it.

And I guess you are right 'cause it's like, it's that relief you go and it, but the long-winded point is, is that. I love that we get to be curious about this stuff instead of go bad me bad shell. How ungrateful are you? You've got the thing, my sister's struggling to find a house, so, you know, it's like, oh, well you should be grateful she's struggling.

You are not. And you know, you can actually just be curious and 

Iain: Yeah. 

Shell: You know, I find, I 

Iain: find Luke I find as well, like the thing that I'm grateful for today will be the thing getting in my way tomorrow. I love my boyfriend so much, but when we were in London, I was there doing a show, first of all, Anna sold out show in London.

Right. Which is mental, right? Absolutely. I don't know anybody there, right? Um, I property DMed Fat Tony as well and invited him, beat income and uh, hi Tony. And uh, okay, we'll get 

in. We, 

Iain: we were gonna get, and we're gonna sandwich the fuck out home, but like, hi daddy. Um, but like the, 

Shell: be there in as much 

Iain: I know like that.

I don't fucking, we we're gonna have a fucking, I've always wanted to have an arrest warrant out for me in recovery. So, um, for stalking. So then, um, but like, we were hungry, uh, and we're lost. We don't really know London, and he doesn't do well with no food. He's not a drinker just by, he's an a normie, if you like, just, and he's a very calm, he's Philip, he's from the Philippines, so he's a very chill guy.

Always happy nurse. Just a lovely person. Right. And I am his rock bottom and, um, yeah. 

Shell: Yeah, he's in a program, right? Yeah. He's, 

Iain: I always say the secret to love is a language barrier. He has no idea that this may be a course of control on my part. So, um, but, uh, we're in the middle and I was like, oh my God, we need to eat.

Like, you know, we were just at the end of our tether and then we ate something. We sat there and we chill and we were through it. And it's like, like knowing these little things about. Uh, the old me would've turned that into just a day. Like, we don't argue, not because we agree on everything, but I don't wanna bully him by just losing my shit on him.

Mm-hmm. Right. Like, he's a nice, quiet, kind person. He deserves better. Right? Yeah. But like the, the thing I've learned about, you know, being sober is like, being wrong is probably often the best thing that can happen to me in a relationship thing. Oh yeah. That's what I wanted you to say. Like, there were times in my recovery where I was like, oh my God, I'm so grateful for my job, I'm grateful for my family, I'm grateful for my boyfriend.

The next week I fucking hate this job, and my boyfriend just gets in my way and blah, blah. And it's the exact same thing, but it's all about perspective. Mm-hmm. And I think that we don't need to be happy, clappy grateful all the time. Mm-hmm. But often the thing that's really pissing me off is my dream come true.

Like I caught myself doing it. I was back in Barcelona and a couple of the comedians said to me. Oh, how's it going On tour, I was really tired and I was about to complain about all the traveling, and I caught myself saying. I'm traveling because I'm running around the world doing comedy. How fucking cool is that?

Yeah. Right. And so as much as I think that I shouldn't like be grateful all the time, sometimes I do think, um, the opposite side of that is that negativity that wants to take the happiness out. The thing that my own success. You know, part of that's being from Scotland being like, oh, I like your T-shirt.

Oh, it only cost a five. Mm-hmm. Oh, well done. Or ah, we only had 50 people. You know, like trying to take away your own success. Like even I caught you saying about your podcast like, or out of it, five listeners, like little Exactly. Microaggression towards yourself where it's like, mm-hmm. Yeah. But the old, you couldn't have imagined doing a fucking podcast.

Like you are doing the thing, you are out looking for guests. Like you actually have a podcast. How many pricks out there are saying I could do a podcast? And they like all straight men think they can land a plane. It's that kind of energy. 

Shell: Partly the podcast is a, is the new, um, having a band. Like, like when kicked that we're gonna start a band, starting a podcast.

Is that I was like, yes. And you're, and 

Iain: you're creating that space that you always wanted in the fellowship that wasn't there because someone is going to see this and someone is gonna say, I'm actually not a grateful addict either, and I've also not lost weight, or I don't wanna run. Or that, yeah. I don't wanna skip with that.

Harry Hoer. And, and that's why I've done the show as well. Like I did a lot of terrible things am my using and they're not worth dying over, you know? Mm-hmm. And I think some of the representation we've had in the media as addicts, like not to name a certain comedian who's currently being done for God knows what.

Mm-hmm. Like I've always had a bit of resentment against celebrities that come out and are the wrong kind of program. You know what I mean? Like how many women don't go want to go to meetings because it's full of men like that. Mm-hmm. And I think we have a responsibility to just be. Like not pious in her recovery.

Yeah, and not, I know I don't know everything and I know that I don't know what's right for you. All I can do is say what was right for me and what got me clean might kill you. 

Shell: Yeah, no, absolutely. And actually I was talking about comedians who are sober. There's a show on Amazon at the moment called the Last One, laughing, something like that.

Yeah. And um, and three of the comedians are sober. Lou Sanders is sober. Daisy Mae Cooper's sober. Um, Joe, um, I can't remember his last name now it's sober. Um, I mean, Josh Whitaker's sober, like there's more and more and, and I like openly. And again, I think, I love the fact that a, an industry entertainment and especially, you know, comedians and mental health are, you know, it's not a hot 

Iain: bed, it's not a hotbed.

And it's 

Shell: just wonderful to be able to see, like you say, people coming and doing this craft, which has such an association with mental health, with having to be very down and out. But, but the darkness I just love. And, you know, that was again, to kind of start wrapping up because we both have lives to get on with.

Um, that for me was one of the things that I just loved about getting into recovery Yeah. Was I have never laughed more. Then I have laughed at the dark stuff with a group of people that have literally sat at the edge of their lives and just seen the abyss. And we, when I first started going to recovery, we would, my parents went to their meeting and we would part in the hallway.

And so I went to the, my 12 step and they went to theirs. And after the meeting, my dad would always come out looking all sad because he would've, they would hear us pissing ourselves for an hour. Well, he'd been sat there listening to Doris crying over her addict husband. Classic 

Iain: Doris, classic 

Shell: Doris. And my poor dad would come out just being fucking miserable.

And they never had biscuits. We always had biscuits. Oh, we've 

Iain: got too many biscuits. Yeah. 

Shell: And I used to say to him, we get there, like, and again, this is the magic, I think the healing of laughter and stuff, you know, after a month or so into my recovery and, you know, our relationships are rebuilding, you know, and we'd get to the door and I'd be like, oh, go off to your, enjoy your sad little meeting, dad.

I'm off with the addict to have fun. But it is, it's beautiful, isn't it? Like laughter and that connection that you get. Oh, we, laughter is just everything. 

Iain: If you can't, you know, Joan Rivers used to say it, my higher power. She said to me the other day on WhatsApp, um, there's, uh. She said that when you laugh at things, you make them smaller and then we can handle them.

And look, I think that when I started comedy, there was quite a few comedians on the scene that were counting days, but not in recovery. Mm-hmm. And they all started drinking again. No disrespect guys. I love you all, but. I knew with myself, I knew I had to have some, first of all, I don't identify as a sober comedian.

This one show is about everything that happened Mm. Uh, before sobriety. I would never, I would never think to tell someone how to get it done. And I think sometimes we see a lot of sober influencers and where they're losing is, this now has become your brand to the point where if you did start drinking, you couldn't say anything.

And I don't believe in social media. Accountability is a way of keeping you well. Mm-hmm. I think that attention is a, is a, is a distraction from you. The risk to go back to drinking because a likes is, is too high. The same with a boyfriend. A boyfriend will not keep you sober. A friend of mine, she came into recovery.

She'd lost access. Her daughter, I said, if you try and get sober for that, you won't stay sober. Yeah. 

She's four 

Iain: years sober. She is back with her daughter. You know, it's, but she, you have to look inside and know who you are and don't, you know, there's too many people trying to be. Trying to be a teacher when they're 30 days in is something, and that, that isn't going to work.

So I think, you know, you've got the same head as me, is like, stay curious question when necessary and work out who you are and be that in recovery because there will be someone else in recovery who needs someone like you. 

Shell: Exactly. Oh hey, praise. Yes. Please be Praise Joan. Praise Joan Rivers on that. Um, I ask this question always.

Um, that's the last question. Um, and I feel we've got a really good, um, good idea actually probably what you're gonna say. But what does recovery mean to you? 

Iain: It's given me everything. It's been this, it's not who I am, but it's been the springboard to, for me to have everything I have today is because of recovery, relationships, what I'm doing for work, you know, being able to know myself and all also like the.

I was such a liar when I was using like big time, uh, like I did not realize an honest life would be so interesting. 

Shell: Yeah. I love that. And as you're saying, it's like, it's not who I am, but it's allowed me to be become 

Iain: Yeah. 

Shell: Who I am. 

Iain: It's the start, it's the, it's the big bang. Yeah. Like, you know, don't try and be like anyone else.

Don't be someone else's version of freedom or what free looks like. Fly your freak flag. Be this, like, you don't need to do that. Like, nobody ask Lady Gaga to speak for us. You know what I mean? Like find out who, find out who you are. And I think particularly as a gay guy in recovery, yes. The responsibility to be like, I don't want to cure one thing by being something else and it can take years, you know, it took me a number of years of being sober.

Mm. To realize. I really love myself, and when you really love yourself, you will only attract other people that love you. Yeah. And the people that don't love you don't bother you. 

Shell: Yeah. You 

Iain: know, 

Shell: as RuPaul says, if you can't love yourself, how the hell is anyone else gonna, we have you. 

Yeah, I know. 

Shell: Oh, Ian, I could talk to you for another 15 hours, but that would be a very, very long podcast.

Um, so I shouldn't, um, thank you so much for being Thank you. So generous with, um, your honesty and just Yeah, your generous, um, yeah, just with sharing. So, um, so openly about some really difficult things and, um, they'll be in the show notes, ways that people can get in touch. And I'll also make sure, actually I'll put in all of the show notes if you are listening to this and that you are struggling, that there are people that you can reach out to, um, as well as obviously always my dms are always open.

But yeah, if you are listening and struggling, just do what me and Ian did. Ask for help. Ask 

Iain: for help. Yeah. You're not alone. Yeah, you're not alone. You're not special. Yeah. You're not. It's have to tell people like, you're so not special. Get over yourself. 

Shell: I mean, maybe if a person listening right now is feeling like a piece of shit, we could be a little bit more support.

Well, you're special 

Iain: to me. But honestly, like I would say the wor the the worst thing you could be when she gets sober is unique. You don't wanna have a problem that no one has never had. Yeah. And that's the thing I heard, like, we're not all in the, we're not all in the same boat, but we're facing the same wave.

Yeah. And like honestly, connection is the solution to 99% of your problems. 

Shell: Absolutely. Yeah. The other 1% 

Iain: is money, but 99% of it, this connection. Yeah. 

Shell: Yeah. In the next podcast episode, we will look at that 1% and how the fuck, we're gonna make some. Ian, thank you so much. Thank you so much and uh, yes, looking forward to speaking to you again soon.

Iain: Speech again soon. Thank you my love.