S3 Episode 012 Rosie Turner: Recovering Loudly … ADHD, Identity & Turning Struggles Into Strength

In this candid and energising episode of We Recover Loudly, Shell is joined by Rosie Turner — accredited ADHD coach, yoga and pilates instructor, podcaster, and founder of ADHD Untangled. Rosie is on a mission to help the neurodivergent community transform what can feel like destabilising struggles into genuine strengths. 

Rosie shares her journey from chaotic school days and extreme highs and lows, to finding clarity through movement, recovery, and her ADHD diagnosis. Together, they unpack the realities of living with ADHD, from perfectionism and rejection sensitivity to the often-overlooked connection between ADHD, eating disorders, and exercise. 

In this episode, they explore: 

• Growing up neurodivergent in a world that isn’t built for you
• How ADHD shows up differently in women (and why so many go undiagnosed)
• The impact of becoming “the label” you’re given at school
• Rejection Sensitive Dysphoria and learning to manage it
• Why movement can be life-changing for ADHD brains
• The rise in diagnoses and the myths and stigma still holding people back

Rosie also opens up about building ADHD Untangled — from one-to-one coaching to retreats, teen programs, and training wellness professionals to be ADHD-informed — and why representation and understanding in the wellness and sports industries are vital for real inclusion.  Recorded earlier this year, the retreat Rosie mentions has now passed but she has a new one coming up in September where there are still places.  Follow this link for more information - 

 https://alps.untangledco.com/bali-retreat357566-5742 

 
Whether you’re neurodivergent, suspect you might be, or love someone who is, this conversation is packed with insight, relatability, and practical wisdom for navigating life with authenticity.

CONNECT WITH ROSIE:

 @rosieadhduntangled 

@ adhd_untangled 

https://untangledco.com/

 https://untangledco.com/coaching

For more information on We Recover Loudly and to reach out for speaking engagements or support email hello@werecoverloudly.com

@werecoverloudly
www.werecoverloudly.com

Transcript

Shell: Hello, and welcome to this new episode of We Recover Loudly. Today I'm joined by the brilliant Rosie Turner, an accredited A DHD coach, a podcaster, and a yoga and Pilates instructor who has made it her mission to support the A DHD neurodivergent community and turning what can be really destabilizing, debilitating struggles into strength.

After years of swinging between extremes, much like myself, party girl housewife, I haven't done the housewife thing yet. Rebel, um, challenges with addiction. Yogi, uh, Rosie finally found her clarity, uh, through movement, um, through recovery. Um, and obviously that. A DHD diagnosis, which is just so important for a lot of us, um, that changed her life.

Now. She helps others rewrite their own stories and live with that authenticity and purpose like she does. Um, and we're gonna be diving right into her journey. Um, also talking a little bit about the power of movement for, um, people who are neurodivergent. I'm really interested to talk to you about that because, uh, I think that's, uh, one part of my puzzle that I've yet to explore and, uh, and how she's been helping others feel seen, supported, and.

Untangled. Yeah. Yeah. That's the name of the company, by the way, everybody. But before we get into all of that, Rosie, how are you? 

Rosie: Uh, I'm good. Thank you. I'm good. I feel a bit away over the place, but you know, that's normal. 

Shell: That's normal. I, we were saying before we started recording, we were just like, we're both here.

We're both dressed, we're both almost on time and we both thought about three different drinks around us. And you know what else? 

Rosie: Lots of post-its. 

Shell: I know. I love it. I mean, I've been following you. I actually started following you on LinkedIn. Um. I dunno why I said LinkedIn. So surprised there. LinkedIn. I was 

Rosie: surprised.

I was surprised about LinkedIn to look, tell you ever being up there 

Shell: myself. Could you, was you do, um, like a mail out, don't you? I dunno what they call them, like newslettery things or something that goes to your emails. Dunno why I'm sounding loud. Like, I've only just discovered computers. But you did, you did a really, really amazing post not that long ago.

Um, and I think it was really centered around like, um, reject sensitivity. It was either an email or a post or something. That's why I initially reached out, because that is one of my, ugh, biggest, biggest challenges, um, still to date. Um, and again, I'm really excited to talk to you about that. But before we get into all the juicy stuff, I would love to know what it was like growing up as Rosie.

What was life like for you back in 

Rosie: the day? God, it was chaos. I know that's quite, you know, a common thing that people say. It was, it was just a life of extremes. Like you mentioned earlier. It was. Starting off from a young age, always the wild child, the naughty one, you know, getting in trouble, but equally the one that, you know, would keep everyone entertained.

And there was never a dull moment in my life from the minute I was born basically. I, um, I always share this stories. I broke my arm twice and dislocated it once before the age of three. So to say I was hyperactive is an a bit of an understanding. Yeah. So I was very hyper. I was, I was like, you know. If we referred it to A-D-H-D-I was like the typical Northeast School boy.

Right. As a girl. 

Shell: Interesting. Mm. Because that's not always the way that it shows up in females, is it? 

Rosie: No, and this is something that I, I like to mention because I think whilst I, you know, obviously a lot of women have been missed because they are prominently inattentive is what we're finding out. But I do think then people think, oh, that's just, that's the woman.

True A DH ADHD where actually, you know, myself and I know many others that it, that hasn't been the case. Um, we still got miss because obviously I don't think people thought girls could have it. I think that's just what we all thought. Um, but yeah, mine showed up very, yeah, like typical NORTY score Boy, which is why sometimes I'm like, oh, really?

It's so obvious that I had a DHD. But obviously it wasn't obvious because I suppose, like I said, I don't think they really looked at women or girls as. Having a DHD. But yeah, it, and, and you know, as a child I was just always getting in trouble, always struggling, always wanted to like do well, like try my best.

And I always had those best intentions. A bit like now when you're an adult you do this, but I'd turn up to the new, you know, it's not new season, what's it called? New term for school. And I have all my new notepads and one new pens, and I'd be like, right, I'm gonna be really good and I'm gonna learn.

'cause I loved learning and I do love learning now. Mm-hmm. But I struggle to learn, obviously, like, you know, I've struggled to stay focused. Um, and, you know, a few weeks down the line, I'd be back being distracted, daydreaming, getting in trouble because I wasn't doing what I was told. Um, and then I think eventually what happened, and this is what I'm finding really common in my, in my clients that are younger as well.

As I've progressed onto like secondary school, you start to become the label that you're given, right? So you start being naughty, you start being rebellious. Mm-hmm. And thinking, well, you know, I didn't know this at the time, this is what was happening. But I think I thought, well, I don't fit into what's going on.

I'm not getting this right anymore. Um, even if I'm trying, I'm not getting it right. So let's be what everyone's saying You are. Let's rebel and let's smoke and let's not go to school. And, and, you know. I think that what happened in the end. Um, but being a DHD in extreme, when it got to like the important years, like the last two years of secondary school, I had like a massive turnaround and became me.

Did you And then started to like. 

Shell: Do all the stuff just to pass my exams. The last year of Poly Girl, I even got a certificate saying most turned around 

Rosie: my God. See what I mean? But yeah, it's extremities, isn't it? And I do wonder now though, I mean we can dive into some later, but I wonder if that is another hormone thing.

'cause I, I started my menstrual cycle really early as well. Me too. 11. Yeah. So it might be related, you know, because obviously it's that because you're just room, you start to, you know, come into your periods and, and start having them, that things can get a bit rocky. And then maybe things started to settle a little bit.

I mean, I wonder, I can't really remember if I went on the pill then or what. I don't know. But something changed. In my life. 

Shell: I went on the pill quite early because this was back, back in the day when, and they used to prescribe, um, contraception for acne. I dunno if they still do. Yes. That's what happened to me.

So I had, um, dit it was called, which they don't, did you know that, that it's like illegal now because it's so bad for people. They don't You really? Yeah. It's it's one of their, yeah. You literally, I can't remember. What the, the thing things were a bit like, like you, you're not, they don't prescribe it anymore.

Something with blood clots and potentially hormones. We should probably dive into that 'cause we Blood sitting here, right? Um, yeah, dying at, so you are right. I think I probably started that when I was maybe like 13. I know I was young. Um, 13, 14. So yeah. Wow. And then big turnaround. I love what you just said about becoming the label.

I think that's something that, um. But when you said that, it just really brought, made me think about the girls at school that were more outwardly naughty and you are right, no matter almost how much, how hard they tried. It was always that narrative. And I think a lot of people, females and males, just slipped through the cracks because of that becoming the label.

And it's really sad. 

Rosie: Well, they give up, you know? And I'm only, I'm only really untangling it for myself. 'cause I'm untangling it with my clients I think now. But I think. You know, you're constantly being told that at school you go home and parents, not because they're bad parents or they're putting too much pressure on people, but because they don't know what's going on.

Mm-hmm. Then you're getting the pressure at home and you're just like, I think you sort of, your back feels a bit against the wall and you're like, well, and now we know as well about A DHD is like the demand avoidance and our brain getting lots of stimulation as well from reactions, like negative conflict and, and, and all of that.

So. Also, it's our brain's desire to have what it needs because it's not getting, there's no stimulation for anything positive at that point. Mm. You feel so lost and you can't see, well, where, where is my life going? What am I good at? Where do I fit in? Like, there's no positive stimulation, so it's gonna grab it in all the negative places, right?

Shell: Mm. Yeah, definitely. And I think also, you know, traditional education just. Again, I haven't been school for a million years, but certainly back then, it just doesn't celebrate the things that we were good at. And, you know, even the arts. So stuff like, you know, I remember I did dance, but it was an extra GCSE.

It wasn't A-G-C-S-E that you could take instead of something else, you know, and it, little things like that. And, um, we did, um, like expressive arts as well, but again, it was, oh, it wasn't like, it just wasn't ever given the same. Gravitas, the same support, the same respect it felt as the more academic subjects, you know, your history, your geography, and all of that.

And again, I just think that it's this really sad mist. You know, I don't go wanna go quite as deep as like a lost generation, but you know, I am, and I'm sure you're the same. More and more of my friends, like two of my very best friends, literally last week, got diagnosed, um, both as autistic and A DHD. Um, in two separate parts of the world.

Um, and I just think it's such a lost generation. Why? You know, like there's just all of this and, and the grief now that they're going through. Um, it's really, really sad, isn't it? 

Rosie: It is really sad. But, you know, this is, I think our brains as well can tend to go down there a lot. And I, I notice myself now even, I think, I always say I delayed grief, like typical missing the first two steps of anything but.

Like it is, you can catch your brain going there and thinking, oh my God. Like that. You know, you connect a dot that you haven't connected yet and you're like, that relationship that ended or that friendship that ended, or that career or this time I wasted, um, 

Shell: yeah, 

Rosie: was a d adhd. And then you can really start to, you know, well again, going back to like, what's happening now is like my hormones.

I can really find myself and have to stop myself going down a spiral of like, oh my God. If I hadn't done all this wasting my time chasing these highs and damaging my body and going through all this stuff trying to mask, maybe I wouldn't be suffering with what's going on now. Yeah. But you have to stop yourself, right?

Because you can't change it. 

Shell: No, exactly. And, and again, that's why your work that you do is just so important to kind of like have that out as an open conversation and so that people don't get stuck in that. Um, yeah. At school, um, what were you like with friends? I always had like one or two best friends that I was obsessed with for like a term or two terms.

And then I haven't really thought about high skills until this conversation and then like the next year was a whole different set. Were you a bit like that? Do you 

Rosie: know what I was a bit like? 'cause I, I was the same, like I was always part of a group, right? But I always was closer to like two people within the group.

So. Again, like you said, but be really obsessive in a way. But I'd always be around their house and be part of their family and they'd be part of my family. It'd be like that, but it'd be for quite a long time. Um, but then I'd make friends of a lot of different other groups as well. Mm-hmm. And when you're younger, you know, it's like that, well, why are you, why are you hanging out there?

Why are you doing it? And I used to just be a little bit of a wonderer like that. Yeah. But then what I noticed as I got older, when things really started to shift for me with friendships, is when I started to step away from partying or. Stuff that I felt I was probably struggling with, like, you know, addictive behaviors and going into like the yoga world.

And I noticed then that I would, you know, people that had been part of my life for like seven years, it was a bit like my relationships, actually, it was the same, it was like seven years and then I'd find a new hyperfocus or a new interest and then they'd be, you know, I'd just go off and do my thing and they'd be like, where the hell have you gone?

Yeah. I actually don't think of it as a, like, I could feel guilty about a lot of things, like when I look back at that, but I also now. Try and celebrate that because it's our intuition of, you know, that's the positives of having an inter space nervous system. Mm-hmm. Um, and a dopamine driven brain in a sense is that we're always gonna follow what interests us.

And if we can use that in a positive way, then, you know, it can lead us onto paths that more aligned for us and keep, instead of keeping us stuck in this existing in life all the time, you know? 

Shell: That's so interesting. I was also quite a, a little bit of a wonderer as well, kind of like bumped around the groups and I was always, see these episodes are, are like therapy for me because I'm just having light bulb moments all over the place.

I was really into music as a teenager. I was determined to move to London, to Camden, to be part of that scene and to have that identity. And now that I'm thinking about it, it's like. I almost turned that into that hyper focus, and I was gonna make that happen regardless of anything else. And I even went and studied in London just to be in London and you know, followed jobs because it would allow me to be a part of that scene.

And I was like, gosh, actually, that really was such a hyper focus versus any kind of other aspiration. There was nothing, there was no substance to that aspiration. It was just a determination. Yeah. And then once it happened, I was like, oh, now what? And, and obviously working in hospitality and PR and stuff, unfortunately, you know, the drugs and the alcohol start coming in, which we've talked about, about a million times.

Um, but now I think about it, yeah, there was no substance to that drive in that decision that that was where I wanted to be, other than the committed hyper focus. That that was what I was my goal. Mm, yeah. That was silly, wasn't it? 

Rosie: Not silly. Not silly. No. 

Shell: What did you, so, I mean, it's your brain. It's just my brain.

Yeah. I mean, what did you wanna be, did you wanna be a rock star when you finished school? Were you headed to Camden? 

Rosie: Uh, north. I have some really good friends who live in North London, but always felt so far away, so I never got there enough. But, um, the, uh, what did I wanna be? Well, I was really good at gymnastics and because netball was like a must for GCSE and I just couldn't get on with the group sports.

They allowed me, which now looking back, was a really great thing that they did, um, to do gymnastics. And I really loved gymnastics and religious education. It wasn't really brace, like you say, celebrated and respected in terms of like, no one ever said to me, oh, you could be a gymnast as a crew. You know, like, no one ever really put that in my head of like.

You're really naturally quite good at these things, do that. Um, so I always felt like right, it was great 'cause I could get A-G-C-S-E in it, whereas some of my clients PEs not including their GCSE, like you just said. Yeah. I just find crazy. Um, and yeah, so I think I, I, I loved movement, but I didn't know that again, that I could be a gymnast.

Mm-hmm. Um, and then when I left school I was like, I would, I would love to have been a dj, but again, never had the confidence. I did some lessons and couldn't work out why I couldn't. Couldn't mix the numbers or whatever. Um, and I chose garage music to practice to, which apparently is the worst one. Um, they don't even go by four beat thing or something.

UK garage. Yeah. So I think a gymnast or a DJ or both would've been great actually. I just love 

Shell: that image of you just, just back flipping onto the decks. 

Rosie: Yeah, exactly. But you know what I think is so interesting? This is what I now look at again with my clients, younger ones, is. I was good at re and gymnastics and later on down the line I became a yoga teacher, which actually embraces both of those strengths.

And actually the people that aren't getting on it academically, you know, because they can't just remember things and repeat them back to you, but they're getting on in sports or food tech. Seems to be something that a lot of my clients really get on with.

Um, creative stuff or movement or something. Yeah. Take them all to another place. See what they go and make and what they invent and what comes to their mind. Yeah. And, and then, you know, let them do their thing. Just yeah, different places. If you're gonna separate them from the class anyway, let them do what they're good at and see what happens.

'cause they could invent 

Shell: the next great thing. And I think that's a different way of, the way that you've just described it is it's a different way rather than almost an I. I do think that being neurodivergent is a disability in a world that is not set up for us to thrive. So I'm not trying to say that it isn't a disability.

However, I do think that like the way that you just described that separation, you know, like the academics and then the not academics, it is almost kind of pushing instead of putting them on the same level, like even keel, like you say, you know, give them that same support, give them the same. Funding, give them the same drive, excitement, whatever it is, great teaching.

Instead, it is like, oh, there's the academic kids and there's the ones that are not academic. IE, you know, a bit silly, a bit slow, a bit stupid, and there goes sent off to that other area and therefore it almost kind of like just fuels that whole disabled narrative. Which again, it's not talking about building strength, building coping, building, I don't like the word resilience, but building, um, ways of navigating a world that's not built for you.

It's at such a young age already othering you. Yeah. Which is really damaging. 

Rosie: And, and also like, maybe we wouldn't, you know, if, if, if this was how the world wasn't, you know, we're talking about school at the moment, but obviously workplaces and, and, and all these things. And if you know. I always say it's an explanation, not an excuse.

It takes both of us. It takes us to understand what is we need 'cause we don't always know and others to help us be, you know, learn how we would need to learn, work, how we need to work. But then we wouldn't need all these extra things that, you know, this extra, I don't know, money and, and what have you. If the world like you say was set up.

In a way that just allowed us to do that. Like we haven't got to go to school and do the same thing as everybody else because we don't learn that way. Yeah. We haven't gotta run work the same way as everyone else. Doesn't mean we're not gonna be successful for the country or the world. Actually. We can create and do great things, but you just need to let us do our thing in first place.

Place. It's 

Shell: further disadvantaging people who are already up at a back foot. Just at the time when actually we should be strengthening, resourcing and pushing them forward. And yeah, I mean, like I said, I'm obviously not at school anymore and I hope it has changed, but I still think that there's, it feels like, anyway, there's this diagnoses wrong other.

Okay, we need to help them versus, okay, well you guys, this is how you are gonna thrive you guys, this is how you are gonna thrive back on. Exactly. Stop 

Rosie: seeing them as such an appall on, on things and a downer. 'cause they feel like that they hate themselves. Yeah. You know what that's like. I know what that's like.

Oh yeah. And they absolutely intrinsically hate themselves. And this is what people don't see. Like, 'cause they haven't got the language to say that they haven't got the, you know, they can't tell their parents that. They don't, can't tell the school that. They really don't like being this person that they're playing right now.

Yeah. They really don't. So how about try and make them feel better about themselves and notice their strengths? 

Shell: Yeah. I, I, I share about my first meeting, um, on my day zero of recovery. Like I sat in a, um, in, in a 12 step meeting and, you know, I'd been faffing around giving up drinking and not la la, la.

Anyway, I sat next to a girl who shared that she looked to the mirror and she hated herself. It was the first time that I'd ever heard anyone else use that kind of language. And it's such a simple statement, but I'd managed to get all the way through my adult life before I recognized and heard somebody else who shot horror.

She now has also recently been to my coast. Um, and you know, it was for exactly that. I'm not suggesting. If I had in my twenties heard more people tell me that they also hated themselves, my life would've been a bit different. But there is, there's this expec, well, there's this assumption that everyone else in the world has got it together and knows what's happening, and that you are the only one that is just failing 24 7, which does create that inner dialogue of self-hatred.

And I never realized that anyone else in the world felt like that until. So much less like three and a half years ago. You know? So I think it is important to have those conversations. Yeah, it definitely is. Um, I wanted to talk about your gymnastics and stuff as you were talking hypermobility. Mm. Are you hypermobile, does that mean?

Rosie: Well, actually I've never thought that I was hypermobile because I've always been the least flexible yoga teacher there is out there. I've always been better at the strength side of things. Actually, I have got a little bit of hypermobility is what I've known because I was doing this, you know, some, I was listening to podcasts the other day.

I would love to talk to this lady. I can't remember her name, but she was doing some of the tests. So I think I have, uh, in certain parts of my body Yeah, it's like in my knees and there's a massive correlation, isn't there? Yeah. In my arms. Uh, so yeah, I have, is the short answer, but I, not to the point that I can just, you know, get in this pitch very easily now.

Shell: It's weird. I I did, I was wondering if you knew why there was a correlation. Yeah, they're doing all the research now. They don't 

Rosie: actually, I don't think they yet fully understand what it is, um, from what this lady was saying, but I think there's a lot of research being done on it. The fact is, I think what we do know now is there's definitely a correlation.

Shell: Yeah. It's 'cause it's mad like, and I can't 

Rosie: remember what the numbers are at the moment, but there is definitely a connection 

Shell: because I thought it was something really cool and sexy to be, but it's actually not, it's really debilitating. 'cause I'm hypermobile then I have fibromyalgia. Um, but found out about the hypermobility after and I've always been really flexible but for no reason.

Yeah, it's been very debilitating. And again, I've got all these friends now who are being diagnosed who also have chronic pain and stuff like that. Yeah, that's because it is really, really bad. 

Rosie: Yeah. And actually as the over teacher, the, I would always teach as if I was teaching someone with hypermobility because they're the danger in the room.

Mm. And guess what? Because they're hypermobile, they tend to be in yoga because they think it feels great for them. Um, so that's why I. Before I ever knew about a DH ADHD or anything is I created something called Discover Your Strength Yoga. So I would focus on building strength, but purely as well because a lot of people that went to yoga weren't really focusing that much on the strength they were coming to be like in the splits.

And I would be like, no, let's engage our glutes. Let's not go to full range. And, and 'cause you're always as a teacher, wanna keep those people safe. 'cause you might not always obviously know, you know? 

Shell: Absolutely. Um, it's interesting you say that. Um, I was gonna ask you about being a DJ and like being an expert and whether you are the same as me.

Yoga is one of the things that I really struggle with because I'm not an expert immediately. And, um, imagine a bit like you DJing the first time. You weren't immediately an expert and then you dropped it. Um, and I really, really struggle with not being perfect and the best at something immediately.

Therefore I'll drop it. So yoga, because especially now with fiber, I'm nowhere near as flexible as I used to. I really struggle to continue to do things, even if they're good to me. I mean, do you find that you have clients who have similar stories, like, you know, even if it's something that's gonna be really good for them, if they're not an expert, they just walk away from it?

Rosie: Oh, I have so many clients, so many, many clients that did, and it is, I am like literally the biggest thing I, I'm like. Get, I teach a lot around and all my, I've got a new training thing that I'm doing at the moment, and part of that is like the fear of failure, like letting go of that is some of the best education that I self educated on.

Listen to Denzel Washington. He does an amazing speech on it and you know, I know we are so scared of getting it wrong and not being per perfection is just rife in our community. Yeah, I think what I, I, I've, again, I think with me, I definitely relate to that, but. I think what used to happen and can happen now, and obviously now I'm aware of it, I've managed to stay at what I'm doing now without being perfect.

But, 'cause I was so used to getting it wrong, like I did nine driving tests, right? I got, I failed eight and I kept going. And I think because at school with the driving test, I was always assumed that I was gonna foul. 'cause like my sisters were so smart, they would come in, go into things and they'd just get A's and stuff and I didn't.

So I think that yes, there is a perfectionist in me, but it's usually when I've started something, I've started to see a bit of success and I've gotta keep that level up. And I don't, because I've ended up taking on probably too many things or you just can't be perfect, right? It takes everything from you, you burn out.

Um, and then I've quit because I'm not the expert or I'm not as good, but I've managed to, I think my impulsivity, my restlessness, and. My demand, avoidance of pruning to prove people wrong and people telling me I can't do something has led me to take, like when I went to yoga, I wasn't good at yoga from the beginning.

And even though I did gymnastics, I couldn't even hold a downward dog. And I was in a room of people that were doing handstands with one finger. Ugh. But I kept going. It didn't bother me. The expert, like it doesn't bother me. I'm not good at boxing, but I go because I just like it. But. It has tripped me up later on down the line.

Like when I started my yoga business, I would quit a lot because I'd be like, I can't get this to the perfect thing that I did before every time, and this is, and then it would just kill me, like literally physically and mentally kill me. 

Shell: Yeah. I have a friend who is gonna know exactly who I'm talking about when I say this, and we've known each other since I was 16 and she's been like one of my bestest friends forever.

And she says to me, you always set yourself up for disappointment. She says, it's loving me. By the way, I've, you always set yourself up for disappointment because everything that happens, you have such high expectations that they're just, they're, you're never gonna reach them. And she says, and you break your own heart time and time again.

Yeah. Is that, is that, is that, is that just me or is that a, 

Rosie: you 

Shell: know, like, no, that is 

Rosie: it. If I could put, it's giving goosebumps actually, and I think if I could, yeah. Describe it. That's it. It's the expecta and that's what perfection is. Is is. Mm-hmm. Like I would never have said I was a perfectionist ever in my life.

'cause I'm just so chaotic all the time. And I always say to my clients, you know, that's a really perfectionist thing to say because you know, perfectionism is the expectation you put yourself put on yourself. So true. To deliver something. And the fact you think that you're not perfectionist because nothing you do is perfect screams perfectionism.

Shell: So true. I mean, I've really struggled to kind of get myself in gear to record this third season even, because, you know, I'm like, not Stephen Bartlett. And then you start to sit there and go like, oh, why? Nobody even wants to listen. And you, I've got great figures, I've got great numbers, I've got a lovely follow.

You know, it's not about the actual number. And you know, again, I've had to coach myself. With that conversation of, you know, you started this podcast to impact one person, if one person listens to it and goes, I've rethought my um, my. Attitude towards, uh, drinking or, oh wow, I was really burning out and I listened to your one on burnout, and I've realized, and I put something, you know, that was the real goal.

So why have I moved so far away from that goal to now kind of being like, and it is, it's almost like overnight you sit down with this really great intention of my one goal is to help one person, whatever it might be. And within 24 hours, I'm like, you're a failure because you're not Stephen Bartner. And it, it's fast, isn't it?

And then. To pull yourself out of that, I think is, it's really hard. 

Rosie: Yeah. But what you did is, is a great tool, right? That's is going back to your why and understanding why you did something. 

Shell: Okay. And also, 

Rosie: um, you know, I always say comparison. It's just the worst thing. And again, it's your brain wanting dopamine isn't, it's like that makes your story, it gets more, it gets more, uh, stimulation from that.

Shell: Is that true? So when you are negatively thinking, you get more. 

Rosie: It's why people watch horror films and love dramas and what I only watch true crime. Yes, this is why people watch all this stuff. But you can get stimulation from a positive story, but it takes a lot more work, right? So we, this is what I work with my clients all the time, and that's also includes rejection sensitive dysphoria.

Yes, that's, this is a story, but that same thing, that same imagination that's being used to create that negative story. The same imagination that allows you to create this podcast. So basically it's the flip side of when you are being creative, you come up with an amazing idea that no one around you could have thought of.

It's exactly the same part that comes up with that negative story that tells you your shit. And I dunno if you know about when we're in this, um, task positive network when we are doing a task. Mm-hmm. And in a neurotypical brain, this default mode network, which Dowell calls the demon would switch off, which is our daydreamer part of it.

This is me in my basic terms explaining this. Um, and ours doesn't switch off. So when we go to write that book or do that Yeah. DJJ session because that part of our brain is still on, that's where we get all this negative story and it's like, I need to be entertained. It's like having a child. It needs to be kept busy and that's why bilateral or whatever it's called, beats work for us because it's entertaining that part of the brain that that imagination that wants to create a negative story.

Shell: How interesting. Yeah. Gosh, I'm learning so much. I mean, you, you've just mentioned the thing that, like I said at the beginning, I struggle with so much the rejection sensitivity. It's something that now I look back, I realize, um, I take full responsibility as I do always with the decisions I made around alcohol and drugs, but I drank.

So much because of that. I would get home after work and I would just be like, I failed again. You know, I worked in a very, um, competitive, you know, hospitality is really, really quite fast paced and I was just always, yeah, you know, I don't need to go back through all of that. The listeners have heard it enough and that for me was really when I was drinking, um, it just, that's when it really kind of became excessive as well as.

Breakups, you know, and I can look back over the last, um, 20 years of my drinking and there's like these peaks and trs that completely track when things have gone well and when they've gone bad. And people will say, yes, well, we all like to have a drink when we've had a shit day. And it's like, but there's something very different.

So, I mean, for anyone listening who's going, what are you talking about? What is ejection sensitivity? Is it disorder or dysphoria? Dysphoria. Dysphoria. I 

Rosie: probably said disorder. I say dys. I'm, I can't spell that part of it either. So when I have to do it on a slide, I'm like, oh God, I've that. Yeah. Side 

Shell: note, why are all neurodivergent terms so hard to spell?

We're all dyslexic. Can we have a little word? 

Rosie: She spoke about it. I'm so impressed that I could even say it when all the times I can. Um, yeah, so rejection, so I always describe it, I dunno how you'd describe it, but I always describe it as like. Um, highly sensitive to perceived and real rejection, but it's like paranoia, imposter syndrome, but like 10 times more intense.

And it's all consuming, isn't it? It's like, it's just literally the worst feeling ever. It's like something terrible is gonna happen. 

Shell: Mm-hmm. And it can 

Rosie: it and, and, and ba basically is that. Imagination, isn't it? It's like that negative imagination. And I get people to name their RSD and mine, Gary, get involved and I get people to name it, hopefully someone funny or or whatever they want, but something that detaches them from it because then when they notice it's there because it's never gonna go right.

It's always gonna be around. 

Shell: Yeah. 

Rosie: But we just wanna be able to know, get out of it a bit quicker and, um, yeah. So mine's Gary. So I go, oh, here he goes again. Gary, get involved. His, his bat. 

Shell: Me, I'm, shit, it's so funny. Hates me. And, and that's it. You know, it's like anyone who doesn't suffer from this and who's very lucky to not, you know, just sit with yourself for like 30 seconds and imagine having something, the loudest voice in your head, telling you all of the things that you.

Hope isn't true about yourself, you know, and it's just, yeah. And, and trying to sleep with that. And it is, and, and I had a therapist years ago, whenever I went into those spirals, you know, we would always say, look for the evidence, you know, so I'll sit there and yeah, okay, I'll look for the evidence. You know, I think that's quite CBT thing.

Okay. Is this true? But I mean, when you're really stuck in that spiral, the only evidence you see is evidence that supports. Vulnerable voice in your head and Yeah, it's true. It's hard. I mean, I do 

Rosie: try and get people to ask that question like what, where is the evidence? What else? I always think now what's a good one for us is what else could be going on?

And I, I dunno about you, but like having this diagnosis has allowed me, well it's really supported the RSD, but it's supported a lot of things in general because now I understand why I do things like say someone doesn't text me back straight away because I now know about my own A DHD and what I do.

When I've forgotten to text someone about, or even if I've purposely not wrote back, it's because, oh God, they've asked me to schedule saying I can't look at my diary. I don't know what to tell them. 

Shell: Yeah. And then I 

Rosie: forget about it and you know, I can now instead go, what else could be going on? Oh, actually, maybe they're having one of those days, actually, maybe they're doing that thing that I do.

And I think that's another thing that really helps. It helps us understand others, and especially family members. You know, there's a lot that's been untangled because. Of my own diagnosis, not 'cause they've all gone and got theirs. But I thought my mom couldn't show me love, but I now know she's autistic and she loves me to death.

You know? And it's, it's stuff like that, like this, these diagnosis and these labels that everyone keeps saying, why do you label? They can change everything. 'cause they make us more understanding to others as well. And that's why I think instead of that question, where's the evidence? 'cause you're right, like we're gonna just keep seeing what is our brain wants to find.

Mm-hmm. But what else could be going on? Because I think. We have a better understanding now of ourselves, therefore other people. 

Shell: Oh, a hundred percent. And I mean, yeah, we were gonna talk about that, the rise of diagnosis and the narrative around it being, you know, a superpower and being neuro, and, and I understand, I suppose, the sentiment behind why people are trying to say, oh, it's a superpower.

I kind of get that. But, um, personally I find it, I think it's really. I mean, it just really undermines the struggle and the challenges. I mean, I, I always comment, well, I didn't feel particularly super when I was like, you know, lying in bed, sobbing my eyes out drinking and lost another job, you know, no money in the bank, you know, credit card debt wasn't feeling very superman.

What do you think about this whole kind of modern narrative around the rise in diagnosis, the superpower, the fad? Well, 

Rosie: everything. 

Shell: It just makes me so 

Rosie: angry. I mean, the superpower thing, I don't ever use the word superpower. If people that have a DHD want to say that their A DH ADHD is a superpower, I think that's their prerogative.

Right? True. Some people really believe that and they've had that experience and they want that to be their superpower. They, they think that's their superpower. Um, I use the word strength. I think it can be our strength, but it cannot be our strength without acknowledging and validating the struggles that also come from it.

And if it is not supported and understood by the people or the world around us and ourselves. Then, my God, it can be, unless you are really, you know, fortunate for things to just all of a sudden, I don't know, work in your favor, um, with this unknown, A DHD, um, it can be really fucking detrimental and cost a lot life sense.

Um, so I don't, I I, I don't think that the, you know, I don't think it's fair for others to go around saying, you know, oh, it's a superpower. What are they talking about? It's easy. Or, you know, all this stuff. Um, the rise in diagnosis stuff really, really gets on my nerves because mm-hmm. It's so obvious why there is a rise in diagnosis.

The rise in diagnosis is because we couldn't even, um, diagnose adults until 2008. So of course there's gonna be more diagnosis and, and you know, they didn't know that, um, autism could come along with a DHD, so. Until 2013. So obviously again, no, really, gosh, that's so recent. Yeah. So if you think about, just say other, there were people that were diagnosed with autism that at the time no one was screening them for a DH, adhd.

Then there's a lot of those people as well getting diagnosis, I'm assuming. Um, and vice versa. Yeah. But I mean this narrative around it going, of course it is. 'cause it's been, like you say, the lost generation for how long? Yeah. And, and what I don't understand is wouldn't you want someone who has a DHD to know they've got it and get support?

Wouldn't you want that? Oh. 'cause the worst thing that can happen is you've got people in your company or in your family, or in your friendship group that don't know. 

Shell: Yeah. 

Rosie: That's when it becomes a liability. 

Shell: Yeah. Well it's 

Rosie: true. When people going out there to go, you know, do people really wanna. Know that they have to take, you know, when I had to, you know, trial medication and then now, you know, take medication.

Like people don't really want to have to do that and go on waiting list. And you know, people, it's a lot for people to have to go through this process. 

Shell: Oh my God. 

Rosie: Thinking they're choosing to do it, you know, like, oh, they're just jumping on a bandwagon. 

Shell: It's a fucking long bandwagon. I mean, even just then, like my friend who got diagnosed, um, last week, she went the NHS routes and um, and she was on the waiting list for two years.

So ironically, quite lucky, only two years. Um, and she, I said to her, I was like, as I do always when my friends get diagnosed, how? Because, because nobody said this to me and I, and I found it, and I wish they had, which is, are you okay? How do you feel? Yeah. Are you, are you, you know, because you're probably gonna feel some grief because at the time when I got diagnosed, I think about three years ago, so, and, and I was the first, my friend, I went through psychiatry uk, who I don't think are taking patients anymore, but it meant that my, it, it was almost more of an like, maybe even 11, 12 weeks, I got kind of through it quite quickly.

Oh, wow. Yeah. So this was, this was before it was a trend, Rosie. Per star. Yeah, I was lucky. Um, and um, and I said to, yeah, so I said, you know, are you okay at me? And I felt a lot of grief and she said, I've already grieved. I've grieved two years ago. And I just thought, isn't that sad as well, to have to, and she said she was almost more fearful of not being diagnosed 

Rosie: because, oh God, so many people say this.

Then 

Shell: she would put 

Rosie: back at square one. Yeah. And, and Joe, I know so many people that get a diagnosis and they go, oh, I dunno if I really got it. Um, because even then we're still doubting ourselves because we don't wanna accept that there's something else going on. We wanna blame ourselves 'cause we're so used to blaming ourselves for everybody.

Shell: Oh, immediately she said, I, well I, I've been diagnosed with, um, as autism, but I'm probably only a little bit. I was like, mate. It doesn't come in into Greece. No, you be the wrong. That's so un 

Rosie: And that's the thing I think, uh, you know, that is so unvalidating Yeah. That you, what you did to ask them if they're okay.

Like I normally congratulate people as well for say, like, congratulations. 'cause obviously it is a big thing to, to actually find out and get the answers. Um, but yeah, like, you know, most people around you. I'm sure that you agree. They just like my family, even when my autism, like this year, I've obviously come to the realization done like free, um, free tests and stuff, and, and no one really takes a blind bit of notice or, or really wants to ask you because they don't get it in it, they don't understand it and most of 'em have got it themselves, um, the people that you wanna hear it from, but 

Shell: very true.

Rosie: It's really nice that we will have now ongoing. As we go along on this journey, all of us, um, people out there that have gone through it and will be those people that will go like you did. Um, how'd you feel about it? And are you okay? And is there anything I can do and validate it? Just to know that it's a big thing.

And I think for me, the autism was the one that I went into grief first, whereas A-D-H-D-I was like, oh my God. Relief, relief, relief. But like. I struggled with that last, late, last year, that exact thing of having this diagnosis, it feeling really, really big and not really having anyone around to, to validate it.

But can I just say, I had actually a win this morning mm-hmm. And I put it on my group and my dad, who, when I first started all this, said to me, can you stop talking about A DHD? And he is the most a DHD person I'd ever, ever cru across in my entire life. And, um, yeah, so obviously again, like I had to sort of suppress a lot and just, I suppose it's, it caused me not to, to go around there as much and, and what have you.

Um, but anyway, he sent me a message this morning and when he must have been in the pub last night. 'cause I told him about my autism last year. And again, it was just sort of like, you know, not really. He spoke about and then I got a message and it's something he found in the pub from a doctor advertising all DHD or whatever they call it.

I can't pronounce it. Saying thrive of it and support for it or something. Um, and he sent that to me on WhatsApp last night and I woke up to it today and I was like, I actually cried all morning before this call because I was like, even though it says nothing else, I just know that there's something in that and, and a hundred percent he knows it's a thing and he a hundred percent validation in his way, you know?

Shell: It's such a win. And actually, just as you were saying that, you're right, we are looking for, the validation that we are looking for is from the caretakers that potentially are the same as us and therefore also don't have that language and have come also from a completely different generation. And, and you are right actually, I got my autism diagnoses, um, probably 18 months ago and it was a harder one.

Um, and I'm not too sure why A DHD felt. Very like, like there's no one in the, in, in my whole, remember telling my old boss, he was like, well, you know, there's, there was nobody that was like surprised by that at all. Um, but I, I dunno, I think maybe, I don't think it, I was trying, my brain's trying to say that maybe a DHD is celebrated more than autism is celebrated.

I don't think that's the thing case, but like it just felt more. Felt, feels more accepted, autism maybe feels a bit more less understood at the moment. Mm-hmm. I think that's probably true. Um, I think that there's more of a negative image of people who are autistic. Certainly in the media when we look at films and stuff like that, the way characters are betrayed.

Yeah. And I think for me, autism as well really has been more so that very introspective, lost little girl. Versus my external A DHD, which is all like about here, which actually that's it because A DHD, my A DHD tendencies are far more recognizable, I suppose, and therefore that's why people are like, yeah, of course you're a D, HD.

Whereas maybe my autistic tendencies, I probably kept more within and internal and hidden and maybe it felt a little bit more exposing. 

Rosie: Yeah. As well. Like I think you're right. I think that it's more out there, isn't it? And more people, you know, relate. You can relate to these traits very quickly. Um, and I dunno about you, but I found it really hard at first to celebrate find with my A DHD there was a lot of struggle and, and things that I was like, oh my God.

Like, it's nearly cost of my life, but I could see a way that I could work with it. And I could embrace parts of it. Whereas at first with all things, I didn't have the education around it. 

Shell: Mm-hmm. 

Rosie: All I could see was the limitations it was causing me. Yeah. And the more I worked in my A DHD, the more autistic I felt and the more restrictive in my life that I felt until I started to think about.

Right. Well, well let's change the story here. What are the good things that I. Them coming together, basically. What are those good things? And for me it's like, yes, the structure and change in structure that really tips me over the edge is quite detrimental at times. Mm-hmm. But actually, it's the reason I've had this morning routine for so long and it's been the thing that's changed and saved my life.

So I've tried to think of examples, you know, that I think. Feel a bit better than the story that I really naturally wanna tell myself about it. 

Shell: Yeah, no, that's, that's exactly, that's a really good way of thinking about it and rather not to call it that superpower, but yeah, like kind of align it with that positivity.

So what are the great things about it that it has given you and there, and there's plenty. 

Rosie: Yeah. And that's thing I, I've still got probably lows to still learn about it. And I think, like we all have, haven't we, 

Shell: as does the whole medical world here. 

Rosie: And this is the thing, like, I dunno about you, but I'm be in this bubble and I, I assume everyone knows what I know and then I step outside the bubble and I'm like, oh my God.

No. No one knows anything. 

Shell: Yeah. Absolutely. But it is, but it is so freeing and, and as well, like I um, had an incident where I was training a couple of weeks ago. I was training on neurodiversity in hospitality and, you know, kind of inclusive practices and how dare they, but they changed the room on me. I was in a different room to the room I imagined and the table layout was not the same table layout and a normal person, normal, sorry, I shouldn't use that word.

A, a neurotypical person might maybe go with the flow, maybe be able to communicate to the person that set them in the room. The guy that has never met you, by the way. 'cause it's at a venue. Oh, I'm so sorry, but this isn't what I was expecting. What did I do? This is wrong. This isn't where I was meant to be.

The guy's just like, uh, hello? Um, can I help? I had a massive spiral and the reason I mentioned this is because now I know I'm autistic. I knew what was happening, I knew how to get myself out of it. Side note, turned out the new room and the new table layout was significantly better than the original one, and it actually made the session much better, but it was that immediate anger.

I was so angry and. I couldn't do anything other than be really rude. I mean, I tried to be nicer to him afterwards. I was like, dang, it's much. 

Rosie: You're dysregulate. It just dysregulated, aren't you? And that's it. And it can come out in anger and panic. You're just panicking. Hundred percent. That's the bit I hate the most is that I can do that as well.

Like if I'm panicked, if I'm in that, if I'm dysregulated and something's gone, D different or changed or wrong or you know, my, it's like that reptile response basically. Mm-hmm. Yeah. Um. And then the shame and guilt that comes from that after is like, oh God. But again, that's got a bit of RSD in it as well, depending on the situation.

Shell: Yeah. But it said, instead of hating on myself for doing it, at least I could understand it. Exactly. Exactly that. And that's the magic. Right. Well, before we finish, I've got to obviously ask about and tangled and just uh, tell me about and, 'cause we've not basically spoken about what your entire career life, everything you do is.

So share Rosie. Uh, 

Rosie: yeah. So, um, A DHD untangled is, um, a coach. You know, I do one-to-one coaching and group coaching. Um, but it's a holistic view at supporting, um, individuals and now teenagers as well as adults, um, with their A DHD. So, um, I'm trying to incorporate, um, movement classes that we, we put on.

We're gonna start to do, um, some, like, we're doing a, uh, what's it body doubling, cooking baking thing. Daisy's running. Uh oh. That's coola. We want to do some sound healing and stuff like that. So we've got all that going on. Um, and that's like the day-today stuff. And then we've got retreats. We've got our first A DHD retreats.

So I used to run retreats with my yoga business before. So immediately go to B to get there on time in May. Yeah. So go to Bali, may take a bunch of H ADHD to bar. Oh my God, you're gonna lose four of them. So, yeah. Oh my God. Um, so we've got that and, um, and I'm also also training movement, um, and wellness professionals, wellness and sports professionals.

It's become now, um, to become a DHD informed coaches. So certified. Brilliant. Um, so that's our first online one is starting at the end of May. So after the retreat. Great. Um, like a week after. Um, so yeah, I'm doing a lot of stuff at that, and my, and my big mission really is to. I want to do a lot in the sports and wellness place, like lots of training and awareness because in my opinion, like obviously with exercise, um, saving my life and then now realizing that it was actually managing my A DH, adhd, it got me out of, you know, taking drugs and all of this stuff 'cause I was getting a good hit at dopamine.

I really want to make the world wellness and sports industry as accommodating as possible. For individuals of a DH adhd. Hmm. And I think the first thing we need to do is obviously allow, have representation, but also have that understanding, um, from the people that are out there being the sports coaches who are the yoga teachers, Pilates teachers, or whatever it is they, these people do.

Um, so then they can start to see that from different and make things more accessible, um, is the biggest thing. So I'm really passionate about doing that, but I do a lot of different things, um, like the podcast as well, but I am, I'm realizing that I need to close a few tabs, um, and start building blocks instead of massive walls at, at, at once.

Yeah, we do lots of fun stuff. So movement coaching and um, yeah, I love it, but it can burn you out and I know we didn't get around to that, but, uh, running a business of A DHD and yeah. For the first time is, is you know, anyone that's self-employed, which most of us are, um, with A-D-H-D-I think it's, uh, a challenging, challenging thing to do.

It is great for us, but it's also quite challenging, so 

Shell: we, no, I feel like we need to do another four episodes because what you've just said about exercise and I suppose actually people just listened to your podcast probably, um, but what you just said about exercise, oh my God, like that could be a whole episode.

I have got such a difficult relationship with the gym. Exercise away from my body. Um, I've been recently learning far more about eating disorders and people who are neurodivergent Yes. Blowing my mind, making so much more sense. Um, the rejection sensitivity stuff, not being an expert immediately. So I obviously don't go back because I can't do like, you know, like the biggest split and the anyone listening, I'm busy pretending to lift weights in the air.

Uh, you know, the heaviest seat. Um, and like, you know, it's all of those types of things that push me away working with trainers who use the wrong, I think it's the wrong language. The trainer I had very recently, you know, the way he talks about the, uh, that the way I had to cut calories, you know, the site, all of that.

Because our brains will stick to that negative thing. You know, I walked away from a session with him. All I heard was how much he wanted me to cut my calories, how overweight I was, what my body fat was spiraled into nowhere. Do you, was I motivated to go back? No. I canceled, I canceled the gym. Well, this is so funny.

It's so 

Rosie: important. It's so funny. That's that on the modules that we've got is like, it's motivation is one of them. So motivation and procrastination is, is a big thing. Obviously. They're, yeah, they're gonna come across. Um, and language and communication is, is one that I'm covering, but could. It's so important.

And, and, and again, they don't know and they don't understand. It's not like anyone's fault or anything. But also if you think about eating disorder and you've got autism, and I can now see from my own eating disorders, um, which is the thing that I struggle the most to talk about still now, like I say now, so talking about it.

But if you think about autism and restriction, right? Mm-hmm. And numbers and being quite obsessive over that, I can now see that play a part massively. Then you've got the binge eating disorder. The opposite side of the spectrum that I was, and I think many of us have with a DH adhd, um, is the A DH adhd.

So eating disorders are huge. I've can't, again, I've got the status somewhere, but it is massive and especially binge eating disorder. 

Shell: Do you know what, Rosie, actually, after May, after you've done all your awesome retreats and stuff like that, maybe we can do another episode if I would bloody love to talk to you about eating disorders because.

I just think it's, like I said, it's something that I'm only really kind of unpacking now, and it has just, I worked in the industry for like 16 years. I never had to think about breakfast, lunch, and dinner. Now I work to my own. I've had to teach myself that there's three meals in a day, put on load weight.

That's not because of like I'm eating like, you know, lumps of butter occasionally, but again, it's like my metabolism didn't know how to work. I'll not eat all day still to this day. And then you eat at like seven o'clock and obviously your body goes, oh, food, overeating. Honestly, it just blows my mind again so much.

And the 

Rosie: hormones. Yeah. If we do and the hormones just do hormones and, and exercise together. 'cause it's all related. 

Shell: Absolutely. I love it. Um, last question. I ask all of the guests, um, and, and in fairness, you know, when I emailed you and asked you to be on, I did say, you know, recovery is an interesting kind of word when we look at it, when it comes to people who are neurodivergent.

We don't really recover, but, you know, what does recovery mean to you? What, what's that been like, that journey? What does recovery mean to 

Rosie: me? It means I'm masking and actually. Doing everything I can to live a more meaningful and authentic life and everything I can to support others do the same. 

Shell: Yeah, I love it.

Honestly, you guys, all these guests come out with such great statements. I'm gonna put 'em all on fishing sleeve before. Look, rod, thank you so much for your time today, 

Rosie: cia. You're doing amazing stuff. Oh, when it's 

Shell: back, let's catch up again and definitely good luck. I'll put all of your details, um, into the chat for anyone who's listening.

And yeah, just thank you so much for being here. 

Rosie: Thank you.