We Recover Loudly – Personal Recovery and Mental Health Stories

S3 Episode 014 Dawn Comolly (Sober Fish): Recovering Loudly … Swearing, Sobriety & Owning Your Story

• Shell Righini • Season 3 • Episode 14

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In the final episode of Season 3, Shell is joined by Dawn Comolly, better known as Sober Fish: writer, recovery advocate, and founder of one of the UK’s most vibrant online sobriety communities. Since giving up alcohol in 2016, Dawn has built a space that helps thousands of people swap hangovers and self-doubt for clarity, connection, and confidence always with her trademark honesty and humour.

Dawn shares her journey from teenage drinking and smoking, through years of exhaustion and toxic relationships, to the unexpected click moment that changed her life. Together, she and Shell explore:

  • Why “one day at a time” really works in early sobriety
  • How COVID shifted drinking habits and the long-term fallout still being felt today
  • The hidden shame around alcohol, smoking, and sugar; and why freedom means answering to nothing
  • Building self-respect, boundaries, and a life you don’t want to escape from
  • Why authenticity, community, and even a healthy dose of swearing are essential in recovery

Dawn’s message is clear: sobriety isn’t dull or restrictive. It’s colourful, liberating, and full of possibility.  Whether you’re sober, sober-curious, or questioning your relationship with drinking, this conversation is packed with truth, laughter, and practical wisdom from someone who’s been there and built something extraordinary from it.

CONNECT WITH DAWN :

@ soberfishie 

@ the_unfuck_yourself_coach 

https://www.soberfish.co.uk/

https://m.facebook.com/soberfishie

For more information on We Recover Loudly and to reach out for speaking engagements or support email hello@werecoverloudly.com

@werecoverloudly
www.werecoverloudly.com


Shell: Hello and welcome to this new episode of We Recover Loudly.

This is actually the last episode of season three, and I have to say I've really enjoyed this season, um, as I've basically just been very indulgent and interviewed a load of amazing people that I really admire. Um, there's been really some exceptional chats about everything from burnout to people pleasing neurodivergence.

Of course, we've talked about recovery from addictions, even sex work, um, and it's been a real blast. Um, so thank you to all my guests who have been on, uh, when I was trying to decide who to ask to come on to end the season. It was definitely a tough choice, um, but I'm really excited with who has agreed to come on.

And today I am joined by Dawn Conley, otherwise known as Sober Fish. Who has built a thriving online community of recovery since, uh, she came into, uh, sobriety in 2016. Her dedication to sharing how she swapped hangovers, toxic relationships and exhaustion for clarity, health, and happiness has literally helped hundreds of people.

And she does it with no holds barred honesty and a healthy use of the C word, which is why I love her so much. Dawn, welcome to the podcast. Wow. You 

Dawn: make 

Shell: me 

Dawn: sound amazing. Thanks. 

Shell: It's a, it's one of my number one skills. It seems to be making people sound really good in intro. 

Dawn: Thank you. 

Shell: You guys give me the material.

Well, welcome and thank you so much, um, for joining us on this last. Episode and we were having a little chat beforehand, um, about your journey, um, into recovery or as you say, into recovered, which I absolutely love. And, uh, 2016, I mean, what was it like before 2016? Tell us a little bit about you growing up.

Do I call you Miss Fish? Or Dawn? Or 

Dawn: Dawn will be fine. Thank you. Um, yeah, it was quite, it got quite messy towards the end, let's say. Um. I suppose I started, I think I had my first drink around 14, something like that. Um, and it got progressively heavier in my early twenties, moving out, moving into flat shares.

Um, I lived with my best friend for a long time. I always kind of had this vision that we were always gonna have a bottle of wine in the fridge door and have a glass of wine when we get home. Yes. But the reality was the bottle would be gone. Get another one, get the wine rack full. You know, it just, it, it kind of snowballed quite quickly.

And having done some work on myself over the years, I think a lot of it was to do with, I moved from London to Paul when I was 16, um, which was quite stressful. Going to a new school, new friends, new area, everything like that. And I think alcohol quickly became a crutch for confidence, for fitting in for, um.

You know, just going to parties and just feeling better about myself and it just carried on from there, really. Um, I probably, I hadn't really, I hadn't thought about getting sober until 2016, but I guess I always knew that alcohol. Was an issue. Um, I also smoked really heavily and so I tried to give up smoking quite a few times, and every time I went back to smoking, it was when I drank.

Mm. So I knew in order to get rid of the cigarettes, the alcohol was gonna have to go. Um, that was my conclusion. And it just happened. I hadn't Googled, am I an alcoholic? I hadn't looked. Into sobriety at all. And this article just popped into my newsfeed and it was a board panda newsfeed, um, how people looked after a year of sobriety.

And it really caught my eye because the, the before and after photos were just incredible. And I kind of, you know, something just clicked in my head. Maybe if I gave it a year, I could sort out my, um. Relationship with alcohol and stop smoking and lose some weight. So my intention was always just to give up for a year and I, my vision was that after 365 days, I would be slim non-smoking and be able to moderate how cute is that?

Nice. But it, in a way, I think it was, I think that's what really helped me was it wasn't, I'm giving up forever, it was. We are gonna be fixed in a year, which we all know is impossible once you've been in it. But, um, I think because it was still there in my mind that I wasn't giving up for good, it kind of made it easier.

I just need to get through this year and then we'll see what happens next. And it was the year that changed my life and I never went back. 

Shell: Yeah. Gosh. Yeah. It's so true, isn't it? Like, I mean, even today I'm coming up for four years sober, and I, I say to newcomers like, because I can remember it, it one day, one hour, one minute just feels like the insurmountable, even though I've got four coming up for four years, like I'm.

Definitely not gonna drink today. Like I'm feeling pretty solid in that I'm pretty confident I'm not gonna drink tomorrow. You know, I'm feeling pretty confident about that. Beyond that, I don't really try and think that far ahead because like you say, and, and weirdly enough, tomorrow comes and then the cycle starts again.

But I think a lot of us do put too much pressure on ourselves in that early sobriety for that whole forever. And that maybe scares people off. And you work with a lot of people in, um, sobriety your work, you know, the support work you do. Is that something that you find people bring up a lot? They, oh God, but what about when I win an Oscar?

What am I gonna drink? 

Dawn: Absolutely. Uh, um, so my group is a long-term sobriety group. I'm very clear about that. It is not about moderation, and it is not for short-term stints. Mm. Um, it is for people, generally the people. By the time people come to me, they've tried a lot of other things and they are done.

You know, and that's kind of the attitude that I want, is I never wanna drink again. But I tell them, let's not think about that in the early days. Let's just get to bed tonight. Sober and we'll worry about tomorrow. Tomorrow. Um, I also say that the biggest lesson for me was in COVID, where that's when I started, um, doing like sober challenges actually in January, 2020.

And obviously I did a hundred day challenge and the world went to shit in March when people were on this a hundred day challenge, and it was like absolute nightmare because people obviously couldn't cope and went back to drinking. Mm-hmm. I always use that as an example that when the challenge started on the 1st of January, we couldn't have predicted where we were gonna be my by March, 2020.

And so I always use that example and say, look, we don't know where we're gonna be in a hundred days time. Yeah, let's not worry about that. Let's just worry about today. What do you need to do today to get sober? And then tomorrow when we wake up together, not together, together, but when we wake up, we'll, you know, we'll worry about what happens then.

And, and it's a proven method that just by breaking it into those small chunks, it can really work, you know? Mm-hmm. Um, but obviously in my group, the goal is hopefully you will never drink again, because I just believe that. Sobriety is the best life, and once you've got hold of it, don't let it go.

Shell: Definitely she's got images of all of your little, uh, all the members of your group just in a very long bed. Come on guys. We have another 21 roll over. Roll over. Yeah, exactly. Um, I mean, you mentioned, I mean, COVID was a catalyst for. I can't, I, I dunno the statistic, but the statistics are terrifying. The catalyst for, and, and I have a lot of people.

Yeah. As I'm four years sober, it's 2025. So I got sober the year, a year into, so, into, into COVID and that, that last year. Was accelerated exponentially by the lockdown, by working in hospitality, by the pressures, all of that side of stuff. And I mean, I think COVID really brought up for people those reasons behind.

Why they drink. And again, we talked a tiny bit about this just before we started recording that, you know, there's this assumption that, oh, well people are just not by everybody. People are born addicts. You know, there's an addictive gene, there's a, you know, some person, it's, it's, it's a character flaw.

Well, if only they have that willpower, that self-control. And for me, I think COVID really showed that my drinking was. Reason it was symptom based. You know, it was a, a cure for what was ailing me, which was the incredible pain, the mental health and all that. Um, I mean, what's your view of that kind of explosion of addiction over COVID?

Dawn: Um, so that was the first year that I, um, was working in my membership group. I started it in June, 2019. And as I say, we started doing sober challenges. We did a practice before, um, before Christmas, which went really well. So we knew that there was a market for doing these challenges, and so started January, 2020 and I mean, it was just, when I look back at it, if I put it in a graph, it was like people got sober, then we went into lockdown, people started drinking people, you know, and then the lockdown would finish and then people would come back into the group because.

The, the lockdown had sent them to a place they didn't wanna go, and then they'd come back to me and then they'd get sober again. Then we went back into lockdown again. So I was bit, I worked every day of 2020. Um, it was massive for my business, which just shows that there was a massive need for people to want to get sober.

If I'm honest, I didn't think I'd still be taking on people now who are still suffering from the after effects, but. 20, 25, 5 years later, people still come to me now saying, I started drinking heavily in 2020 and I never really stopped. So if you'd said that to me in January, 2020, that five years later people would still be affected so heavily, I wouldn't have believed you probably.

And I just think that is really sad because, so sad. It's, it's such a long damaging time. Um, but when I look back at COVID. Um, I remember going to our local Tescos and being told to queue from the door. Remember these great days, two meters apart, going round, round the shop and through the alcohol aisle.

And I was trapped in the alcohol aisle for like 20 minutes waiting for a checkout. And it literally, I literally. I was so angry and I went up to the Tesco lady as far as I could, like two meters away, and I said, oh, excuse me, can I. Have a word and she was like, yes. And I said, why are you making people Q in the alcohol aisle?

Yeah. I said, you know, I'm sober, but there might be people out there who are newly sober or who are addicted to alcohol and you are making them stand in the alcohol aisle. And she just went, oh, sorry about that. I was fuming. I wrote them an email as well. I didn't get a response. Of course not. But I think that shows, you know, I think it was an entirely deliberate act.

To make people stand there because you're stood, there you are in turmoil because you dunno what's going on with the world. You're stuck at home. It was like Party Central, wasn't it? 'cause the sun was shining. Mm-hmm. And you saw people just go, oh, do you know what? I might as well have that bottle of gin or.

Oh, it's six bottles of wine for X price. Yeah. You know, and they, and people were just buying stuff that if they'd been asked to queue in the laundry aisle, they wouldn't be buying peril. 

Shell: Yeah. They wouldn't be like, oh, I'll get two packs of peril for six pounds. Maybe that's a great deal, actually. But yeah, 

Dawn: I would now I would.

Yeah. 

Shell: But, but you are right. It's, and, and God, don't, don't you get me started on the whole. Supermarket thing, and I've just come back from Cape Town, um, where my family, where I'm from, and one of the things that they do is that, um, they have liquor stores. So in a supermarket they do have in supermarket.

Wine, not all of them. They'll have some wine, but there'll be no hard liquor That's in a separate store called a liquor store, and that's where you get that alcohol and some supermarket have any at all, like no alcohol at all. It is all in these separate stores and I bloody love that. I know that when I go and get my blueberries and I get my bread and I get, you know, my purse.

I'm not gonna also get hits with alcohol. And I can remember in early sobriety going through the gauntlet of the front door of the supermarket, you get through the, the beers offers and that, and you think, okay, and then you avoid that aisle, like, you know, and you're okay. And you get to the checkout. And there was a bottle of, and this was a, this was a, I'll name them, this was a Morrisons in, in movin, and they had spiced rum at the till.

At the till point and I was just like, at what point is a normal bunny ears normal shopper gonna, oh fuck, I forgot my spiced rum. Thank God it's here by the checkout. What? Who are they trying to serve? Yeah. By doing that and the fact that we can put in place protection for children and not put chocolate at, can you remember when they banned chocolate like in the eighties or whatever, nineties.

So we're making sure we're protecting the children from the chocolate. But the alcohol's fight. It blows my mind. 

Dawn: No, 

Shell: no, I totally 

Dawn: agree. 

Shell: And, 

Dawn: and the non-alcoholic drinks in the alcohol aisle? A hundred percent. When I can't find them, I don't drink them very often, but if I'm going to a barbecue or something, I might go and get some nosco.

And if I go to a supermarket that I don't know, I find myself having to wander through the alcohol, which I always think, oh God, I hope I don't get Pap. I'm only joking 'cause I don't get puff, but I always think, oh my God, what if someone sees me browsing the alcohol aisle looking for the non-alcoholic drinks?

And I, and I also think it's dangerous having them so close together and people may be picking up alcohol. Beer for example, and not realizing, 'cause the labels are very similar and things like that. So going back to your question about COVID, I mean, I, I just think there could have been a lot more.

Prevention at the time if money wasn't or tax wasn't such an issue. Um, because I, I to totally believe it's financially, well, I know it is financially driven at the cost of our nation's mental health and I just think that's unacceptable. 

Shell: It is. And, and like you say, you know, five years ago when, you know, the wheels came off for me.

A hundred percent. And I think to myself, had COVID not happened, had I not been working in hospitality, had I not finally been pushed over that cliff of that, there's that tiny threshold, you know, I'll, I say, I don't know what drink it was that pushed me over. That there is from, from heavy drinker, from hospitality worker, from in fairness, British person.

You know, I, we talked, um, I was talking to Steve from, uh, the Essex Recovery Foundation a few weeks ago about East Enders, which he doesn't watch weird. Um, and how every single scene of East End, east, every single scene, if you watch East Enders and counts, how many alcoholic drinks are drunk? It is every single scene.

Wow. And that's what our society is built on. You know, like the alcohol thing. And I dunno what drink moved me from just being a normal British person drinking kind of vibe into dysfunctional drinking. And perhaps if COVID hadn't happened, I'd probably could even still be sat in that discomfort four, five years later of the endless cycle of a life.

And it, I was gonna say, of a life lived at an acceptable, it wasn't even acceptable. A life lived at such a, a low level of acceptability for me. My health, myself, my, the way I show up for others, my family, that whole thing. Versus coming into sobriety and having to really go shit. What is the alcohol hiding?

What is the alcohol soothing? What is the alcohol? What is it saving me, protecting me from, you know? Mm-hmm. Because I think it's quite a, an interesting relationship, isn't it, with alcohol. And again, I'm sure you talk about this with your, with your, your, your fellow fishes. Um, it's hard to give up something that has been.

In a funny way, our friend, our best friend. I mean, how do you guys navigate that? 

Dawn: Yeah, I mean, that's the language that we would use. Um, I mean, I think a lot of it comes down to the relationship with ourselves. Um, most people, I will ask them the question. Give me, um, a rating out of 10, your relationship with yourself.

And when they come into the group, it's normally pretty low, you know, two or three. And what I say to them is, that is why you are drinking. I see it as, fuck you, I'm doing pretending I'm drinking. You know when you are drinking poison and you're pouring it into your beautiful body. You don't care about yourself.

You know, if you cared about yourself, then I don't believe you'd be doing that, and that's why I will never drink again. I obviously get criticized by a lot of people when I say I never drink again for being complacent, and it's just waiting to get me, you know, it's in the corner. I'm like, no. I respect and value myself so much.

Now, I've worked fucking hard to get to where I am today. No glass of wine, bottle of wine shot, whatever you wanna call it, is worth what I feel every single day when I wake up and I feel free. You know, my freedom is far more important and so. For me, you know, I do coaching and so I coach people, um, about their relationship with themselves and obviously try and build that because once the score starts getting an eight or a nine, you are unlikely to wanna ruin that because you've done a lot of work to get from a two to a nine.

You know, you've done a lot of deep digging on the reasons why you drank in the first place. I always see that it's, it is like, it's like scales and in the beginning your scales are tipped, but the more work you do, the, the scales tip the other way and, and my work is to just obviously get people to the stage that they have got nothing, that alcohol brings them.

Because my belief is alcohol brings nothing. We're all duped. And, and once you have seen the other side of that, once you go, whoa, hang on a minute, you know, my life looked like that and now my life looks like this. You know, I, I just think, why, why would you ever want to jeopardize that? But it takes a lot.

And if you told somebody in week one, what you need to do is, you know, dig around all your, all those things in your past that made you drink. It's just they, people can't do that. So what I say to people is, let's concentrate on sobriety fast. Nothing else. Forget the weight, forget the exercise, forget the whatever.

I think what people tend to do is go right, that's it. I'm going on a diet. I'm gonna run a marathon tomorrow. I'm going to quit my job. I'm gonna start my own business. Because I think it's really easy to watch somebody like me and go, I want what she's got. Not understanding that I'm nearly nine years on.

This is not an overnight job. This has taken years to, to get to the point that I know I'll never drink again. 

Shell: Yeah. I think, and you touched on something there that. It is one of the reasons I love what you do. Um, it's one of the reasons why I'm wearing a pair of socks right now that say sober cunt is because I do think that, um, one of the pressures that people put on themselves as well as, you know, social media and all of that, you know, gotta gotta bring that in and blame that as well.

I've already had a go at supermarkets. Let's have a go at social media next. Um, is this image of this healed, sober person that feels. So unattainable, like, you know, the, the, the man who puts down the beer and puts on the running shoes and is signed up for an ultra marathon. Although men are really annoying and they all seem to manage to do that, it's like, what Fucking Trevor couldn't like get to the corner shop and now he's doing a marathon next week and he's lost 12 stone.

I hope I hate men. You're so lucky. You're in your metabolism. Um, but, and women, it's immediately, it's, we become very. Soft and we only wear lilac and we, and we can suddenly do a downward dog and you know, we bake our own sourdough and stuff like that. And, and for me that was a really, a real challenge when I came into sobriety because I also got fibromyalgia at the same time.

So my whole body composition completely changed and I can't do the same things physically. I used to. So I put on a lot of weights because, and I've got all these skinny bitches losing weight. You are one of them, Dawn. Um, it's taken a really long time, but it feels like you are almost adding layers of failure in a way.

And I love the fact though, that you are very much somebody that goes, just because I'm sober doesn't mean that all of those things also have to change. So was that like very much a conscious decision to stand there and say, Hey, I'm Dawn, I'm still dawn. I'm just sober. I'm not now gonna be an angel.

Angelic, angelic. I was, I was never gonna become. That's mean I wearing, 

Dawn: I would never, I was never gonna become angelic where lilac or cook sourdough. So no, I was never destined to be there. I think the thing, the, the thing is I've all, I haven't changed as a person. Um. And that was always something that I was very, um, determined to prove was that you were, you weren't going to lose your personality.

'cause I thought I was, I thought I was gonna become, you know, I, I think I've written it somewhere that the, the whole idea of going online was because I thought it was gonna be so utterly dull that it would give me something to do. And I was very much like, as long as I get through the first year so I can moderate.

I'll just write it like a lady. Yeah. And then we'll get there and then everything's gonna be all right. You know? But the thing was is once I started writing, I think you mentioned earlier your podcasting was healing. I didn't realize that actually writing was a really healing thing to do because I encourage everybody to journal as well.

And the reason why is because, and I think you mentioned, um, a bit of anger earlier. Yeah, I was fucking angry when I first started. I was fucking angry that I was having to put myself through this because I was so useless that I couldn't just have a few drinks or just have a few cigarettes or just fucking stop eating and.

And angry at the decisions that I'd made, angry at the people I'd let in my life angry that I'd got to such a point that I'd have to plaster it. I didn't have to obviously, but I decided to plaster it all over the internet. And so as I started writing, you know, the anger was coming out of me and going somewhere else.

And I truly believe that getting it out of you. I think when you are carrying around all this stuff, it's like a cancer. It is festering inside and. It's partly why you drink because it's festering and you're like, oh, shut up. You know, and you drink and, and it, it, it numbs that voice, whatever it is inside you that's weighing on.

And so because it was coming out of me, it was almost like releasing me. And then people started to like what I was writing, which I don't think I'd really thought about. I mean, I never thought it would get to what it's got to now in a million years. Like I would, I would be so happy when like five people were reading it.

You'd be like, oh my God, five people are reading it. This is mad. Um. But, and it's really interesting because the, the, the stuff that I post now is old. Like I wrote it years ago when five people were reading it, and then people will now see it and just be like, oh my God, that's amazing. And I think, yeah, but that is how I felt then.

Like I don't necessarily feel exactly the same about some of the things now it, because there, I wrote that like four or five years ago. Um, I think I've slightly gone off the topic now, but um, yeah, I can't remember what the question was now. 

Shell: Me either. Um, were you conscious to, was it a conscious decision to kind of meet Oh, about being myself?

Yeah. To be yourself and, and show people that, that is, that, that you don't lose yourself. Yeah. In sobriety. 

Dawn: So I seem realize that authenticity was a great selling point. And I don't mean monetary, I mean that. It was, it was attracting the right people who needed me because people liked the fact that I wasn't sugarcoating sobriety.

You know, I have never said, like some newspapers saying, dry January, I've never claimed you are gonna lose three stone. If you stop drinking in a month, you, your skin is gonna look stunning after 30 days. Um, your life is gonna be so much better if you just give up for a month. I'm very honest and I go.

The first month is, is hell, you're probably put on weight. You're gonna not stop eating sugar. Your sleep's gonna be like shit. But if you told everybody that, then nobody would do it. Right? So as, as we kind of go along, it's like it's perfectly normal that your sleep is disrupted because your body is trying to regulate yourself.

It's perfectly normal that you're craving sugar because you've been drinking three bottles of wine a night and your body's going, where's my fix? You know? 

Shell: And your brain doesn't connect the two either. You are like, why do I want sugar? You don't think of wine as being sugar or alcohol is sugar. 'cause it's like a drink and, and it 

Dawn: is.

That's all. It's, I, I was the biggest dick about, about wine in my opinion. Because it was liquid, it just went straight through me. It didn't stick, you know. But if you try to offer me six donut, very short, if you offered me six donuts, I'd be like, I'm not eating those. I'm doing weight watchers or whatever.

Mm-hmm. Swimming club I was doing at the time and I battled with my weight for the whole time. The only time I've managed to keep weight off is when I stopped drinking. Mm-hmm. I'm just like, and this, you know, another bug bear of mine is the amount of money that I've paid to swimming clubs who encourage drinking alcohol.

I'm literally like, when I look back at it, I used to celebrate a loss with a bottle of wine. Yeah. Every week. Yeah. That's what me and my friend did. We'd go and get a Chinese and a bottle of wine. Yeah. We lost a pound. Like what? It's just so twisted. 

Shell: Yeah. 

Dawn: But until, you know, and until you've done a lot of work on it.

And accepted that actually alcohol was just the biggest con there ever was. And you just try and gently nudge people to go, you know, this is my experience of it. Maybe it's your experience too. I think the other thing just quickly, um, when I got sober, there was two camps. There was, you were an alcoholic or you were not an alcoholic.

There was no. Sober fish in the middle. And I think one of the things that people got attracted to with me in the beginning, and that most of the messages that I received were, oh my God, I thought I either had to go to AA or I didn't. Like there was no hundred percent. Um. And there was, there was very little online in 2016.

There. There in-person meetings I think was only aa. I've never been to an AA meeting because I felt it was disingenuous for me to go when I do my, my own thing in a different way. But I obviously have learned a lot about AA and I think there are some great things about aa. AA one day at a time.

Absolutely. Awesome. Don't get into a relationship in the first year with a new person. Absolutely awesome. But I also think there are parts of aa, which are really damaging to people. For example, everybody knows I hate this. You know, you are in recovery for the rest of your life. I just see that as like this massive black cloud.

Like you can be sober and happy, but up here is your big cloud going. Yeah, but you're still a fucking failure. Yeah. Yeah, yeah. And I just, that's, that was a big drive to, I don't want people to think that sobriety, that's, we are back to the question. I don't want people to think that sobriety is dull. Not colorful, miserable, that you lose your identity, that you lose your personality, that nobody's gonna wanna hang out with you, that you're gonna sit at home by yourself.

Although I hashtag I do, but, um, and prefer it people. 

Shell: Turns out about alcohol. We don't like anyone. 

Dawn: I mean, that was the biggest revelation for me because I thought that I needed people to survive. I actually don't need 

Shell: people. Absolutely not. I'm fine with my sausage dog. 

Dawn: Um, but yeah, I just wanted it to be a really colorful place and that's why with the swearing and stuff like that, you know, people love the swearing.

Okay. There's obviously people that don't and that's fine. 'cause. They're naturally repelled to go and live under their cloud of, I'm never gonna be recovered. That's absolutely fine. But in my little part of the world, we want color and fun and laughter because that's what life's about. A hundred 

Shell: percent Amen, sister.

I dunno why I did that. Um, I gal Matee, one of my faith people. I love Gal Matee. I know there's lots of people who don't love his work, but I love him. Um, he was, I remember being, I don't think I'd quite properly come into sobriety yet, listening to a podcast with him, um, on the wonderful Dr. Chatterjee who I.

Also absolutely love. Yeah. And it was the first time, so this would be like 2018, two, yeah, 2018. So again, it sounds like we're talking about decades ago and it really wasn't. The world has changed massively when it comes to how we talk about addiction and sobriety in a quite a relatively short time. Um, and he was the first person I ever heard saying, I don't ask what, why the addiction.

I ask why the pain? And that for me was, oh, it's just giving me chills right now. That for me, felt like the first time someone had looked me in the eye. He didn't literally look me in the eye and said, it's not your fault. It's not your fault. Why are you doing this? And one of the other things he says is, um, I, I can't remember who, I think it was Briny, actually.

Lovely Briny Gordon. He was interviewing and um, he said to her, you know, she said, I am an alcoholic. And he says, no, you are not. He said, that's your disease. It's not who you are. And um, and briny friend, who is a friend as well, absolutely love her. But for her, for her recovery, she has to say, I am an alcoholic every day.

And that's what makes sense to her. And I have real respect for people that. That is what they need to do. 

Dawn: Absolutely. 

Shell: I personally, I loved when Gabel said, that's not who you are. Yeah. That is your disease. And therefore I do kind of feel more, even though I'm very much about talking about recovery and sharing those stories and being proud about where I've come from and who I am now, I don't believe that we need to be our disease forever.

Dawn: No. You know, I mean, I'm not. I don't, I dunno if I'm comfortable with the whole disease model either, if I'm honest. 

Shell: I'm a 

Dawn: hundred percent 

Shell: agree as well. Yeah. Yeah. 

Dawn: I, I just, I just think when you're saying again, it just gives me that kind of crushed feeling. Mm. And I am, I live a life so far from being crushed.

I'm not crushed by anything. I'm free. And, um, I, I look at it that the alcohol is the issue. I totally get as well if people have to say they're an alcoholic every day. Absolutely. But I don't believe that that is true. And the reason I don't believe that's true is because I was a smoker and I'm not gonna be a smoker till the day that I die because I stop smoking and I just see the two are the same.

I'm a non-smoker. I a previous smoker, but I'm not still a smoker and I'm not gonna die. And on my headstone, it's gonna go alcoholic smoker because I'm not. And, and that is, you know, just that I, I just feel uncomfortable. For me, it's uncomfortable. And if I am happily sober without those labels, then I believe other people can be happily sober.

Pty. 

Shell: That's such a truth. That's such a great way of, um, comparing it. Like if you say to somebody, yeah, people don't go around and say, they very rarely say, oh, I'm an ex-smoker, unless it's like a medical form 

Dawn: or they go, or like me when I'm like, I'm the most. Nightmare ex-smoker ever. I can smell it from 

Shell: Oh, and you do that whole, like is someone smoking?

Oh, 

Dawn: but you know it, my plan worked. I gave up drinking and I gave up smoking at the same time. Yeah. I don't recommend people do that. I don't, when people say, how did you do that? I'm literally like, I have no idea. Mm-hmm. Because even thinking about doing that, but I think I said to you at the beginning, I got a really bad flu, which St.

Kickstarted my journey, and I couldn't. Couldn't hardly swallow, so I stopped smoking and drinking through that. So I think it massively helped. Yeah. But, um, you know, when I tried those smoking, uh, no smoking episodes before and there hadn't worked, it did work when I stopped drinking. 

Shell: Yeah. Well, gosh, smoking is a massive, massive thing.

And again, this is something that. I don't wanna aa bash. Um, but I think it is not necessarily just aa, I think it's a lot of, excuse me, people, when we come into recovery, we are very forgiving of the things that we do in the beginning to help us get to that day two, day three, day four. And I think sometimes we don't.

Encourage good behaviors enough as well to be replacing it. And therefore what we find is you have got people 2, 3, 4 years down the line who are not drinking, but fuck me. Are they smoking? Mm-hmm. Can they go a day without a bag of Haribo? And I say this with love because I am one of those people when it comes to sugar.

I really struggle with sugar not smoking. I stopped smoking when I, um, stopped working in hospitality 'cause my smoking was connected to getting a break. And I didn't work in hospitality anymore. And I'm very grateful. 'cause I have a lot of close friends who similar sobriety time now, giving up smoking and seeing how hard it is for them.

Yeah. Breaks my heart because it feels like sometimes it's almost, I wouldn't necessarily say an encouragement, but it's not a discouragement that we say to people, oh, just have a packet of biscuits. I'll just have a packet of cigarette. And I always say to newcomers, and I do still do a 12 step program, you know?

I didn't just come here and do some meetings. I overhauled my whole life. I saw a nutritionist. I fixed my gut health. I, um, I, because obviously fibro came into it, I stopped smoking, I stopped using Cath. I drinking caffeine. It wasn't doing anything good for me. So. I stopped, um, and I had to be very mindful about my sugar intake and not trying to say that my recovery is better than other people's, although it's about to sound it.

But I do think that that does give you a different type of recovery when you are not still. You used the word freedom earlier, and that's a huge part of what I believe is that I love that. In the morning, I do not anymore answer. To any urge, call cry. I don't run to the kettle 'cause if I don't have a coffee in two minutes, I'm gonna die.

You know? Nothing owns me other than my sausage dog. Um, and that sounds similar to the kind of stuff that you talk about. 

Dawn: Yeah, definitely. I mean, I. I dunno how many days. Let me have a look at how many days I am today. But at the weekend, I still wake up so pleased. I'm 3,190 days today. Wow. And I will still wake up tomorrow morning and go, oh my God, I'm so happy that I am home that I haven't been up all night, that I haven't text anyone, I shouldn't, that I haven't got a message from somebody telling me that I did something I can't remember.

It all got towards the end. I mean, I literally, if my phone made a noise, I'd have a hard attack. Uh, it was like ridiculous because I would have mm-hmm. You know, three o'clock in the morning, this bright idea to be messaging people and mm-hmm. And it was really getting me down. So the freedom for me is. You know, going to a supermarket, I, I mean, it just doesn't bother me anymore, but going to a supermarket, getting what I need, leaving.

And it's funny because I was thinking the other day about, um, the dilemma that you, you'd be like, right, I dunno, Monday night. And you'd be like, right, I need to pop Toques, there are other supermarkets available. And then you'd be like, oh, just I'll get a bottle of wine. No, you don't. You said you wouldn't get a bottle of wine.

Yeah. But yeah, but it's only wine, you know. Mm-hmm. I've had a bad day at work or what? You know, that bloody. Torturous mind. 

Shell: Oh my God. The gymnastics. The bargaining. 

Dawn: Yeah, the bargaining with yourself. And then you would always succumb. Then you'd have to get cigarettes on the way out, so then you'd stop your non-smoking or broken your rule that you wouldn't do it on a Monday.

Then you'd feel guilty, and then you'd wake up the next day feeling like shit. And I just don't know why people would want to go back to that. If you, there's a, there's a brilliant phrase which says, um. After you've escaped the lion's den, why would you go back for your hat? 

Shell: Oh yeah. I love that. 

Dawn: Yeah, it's amazing.

And so that's, I use it a lot because I'm like, if you're thinking about drinking, why have you spent 30 days, six months, a year, like you've worked so hard to get away from the devil? Why do you wanna go back to that? And when people go back to it, you know, I think there's a romantic notion sometimes of, oh, you know, they've gone back and they're gonna be moderated.

And I'm just like, no. They're in the supermarket going, oh God, here we go again. You know? And another 10 quid and another, I mean, I don't even know how much cigarettes are now, but how people high watering affording to do both, you know? Yeah. I would be bankrupt if I was still doing that. It's just, it's crazy.

It's high watering. And then the freedom, you know the freedom that comes from the money that you are not swallowing. That is what I get enjoyment out of, is spending my money on things and then remembering what I've spent my money on. Like I now look at it and think, you might as well just get a 20 pound note and smoke that 

Shell: Really, 

Dawn: that's what you're doing, isn't it?

And, and then when you know, and especially in the cost of living crisis and things like that, it's like. You know, I would rather invest my money into, or like, like you said, you're doing the fucking work. You're going to a nutritionist, you're going to somebody to have a chat about your feelings. You are maybe coaching or you are in a membership group.

Oh, good 

Shell: therapy. I spent loads of money on therapy. I forget that therapy. It wasn't just aa, I had to have therapy 

Dawn: and, and I think that's the other thing that people don't understand. Mm. Um, you know, I say there's far more to sobriety than just the drink in your glass. In month one, people are like, it's just the drink in the glass.

We just, you know, that's the focus. But after that, I've got some really lovely people at the moment who are like on a hundred days plus, and they're going, oh my God, there's so much more to sobriety than just the drink in the glass. I'm like, yeah, I did try and tell you. You went listen. 

Shell: Yeah. 

Dawn: Told you. But, but it then becomes about creating the life that you don't want to escape from.

And once you start going, actually work is fucking driving me nuts. My husband, wife, whoever is driving me nuts, my kids are driving me nuts and putting things in place that those types of things aren't sending you towards the Tesco aisle. That's where the change is gonna happen. You know, you went to therapy and d and dug around in, in that dirt.

In order to not need to escape from it because you went into it. Dissected it felt it cried about it, shouted about it, did all of that. That's what, that's the depths you need to go to for long-term sobriety. 

Shell: Yeah, a hundred percent. And I think, again, like the thing that about a about 12 step program that I love, and what you do as well though is community.

And for me, I think I did do all of those things, but the reason that they stuck is because I didn't do it alone. And that I had people that I could call on when I had a session in the mud with a therapist, which sounds like a very saucy therapist, um, very specialized therapist, mud wrestling, um, that I could then call and say, this is what I've spoken about.

And for the, the best part about coming into sobriety and, and, and any kind of recovery and doing it with a community is that I could say, this has happened to me today. And they go, wow, that happened to me too. Yeah. And it's not about being like, oh chef, it's about me. I wanna talk about my trauma. But having somebody show your trauma back to you and making you realize that you're not alone, because I think for a lot of us, we've spent a lot of people that drink and use alcohol for things other than, I dunno what you use alcohol for other than numbing, but use alcohol.

Um, it is because we are alone and we feel we're the only ones. And we feel that we are the only ones that think, look in the mirror and think we look like shit and we are a piece of shit and we're disgusting and no one will ever love us and all of that. And we turns out everyone feels that way. Yeah, 

Dawn: I, and I think.

When I first started, there was a lot more shame than there is now. I think people are being braver. I mean, you are doing podcasts about it. I'm talking to you about it. There's no shame here. Like we got addicted to an addictive substance. That's what it was designed to do. That's not our fault, you know?

Yes. And and I think, which is why 

Shell: the disease model doesn't work. Yeah, I totally get that 

Dawn: because I think once you understand that it's not your fault. You can drop the shame. It's like, no, and I get criticized again, you know, because my audience is now so big and it hits a lot of different communities and it hits like the AA community.

Who don't agree with what I say when I say it's the alcohol they are, they want it to be themselves because that's what they understand. And again, that is fine, but I think it's damaging on the shame front because if you are walking around going, there's something wrong with me, you probably don't want to tell anyone about it.

Which is why I think it's alcoholics anonymous behind a closed door. No one's gonna know. But actually I think it comes from sharing, you know, for me, the powerful tool has been going. There is nothing wrong with me. I am okay. I'm a nice person. Apart from at three o'clock in the morning when I've drunk, shit, load that shit, you know?

Yeah. You know, exactly. I'm at three o'clock in the morning, now I'm dead to the world. Like I'm not messaging anyone telling them what a cunt they are and you know, and so if I was all, if I was diseased, would I not still be doing that at three o'clock in the morning? Irrelevant of the alcohol? Mm. 

Shell: Yeah.

Well, that's it. Exactly. You would still be finding it, I mean. I think well, and again, I think that's what happens though when you put down the alcohol or drugs or whatever it is, and then you don't do the work. Because I think that's the work, because I think that then you can still have the tendency to be the type of person that would still be sat in anger, discomfort.

Texting people, calling them cunts. Um, and, and then again, I think that that's, I fuck, we are free. So people dunno how lucky they are. I always to not get from us. 

Dawn: I'm like, there's a lot of people out there going, oh my God, I haven't slept so well in nine years. This is, 

Shell: yeah. They's feel like they're the ones that gave up drinking.

Dawn gave up drinking and my life improved. Thanks. Yeah, I feel like a few people I know might agree with that, in fact, 

Dawn: but that was, that was another interesting thing. So part of AA is making amends and what I realized. Was that I actually did the 12 steps, but I did them by myself. It was when I listened to Brussel Brand's book of the Steps and I was like, done that, done that, done that.

But I didn't know what the steps were. But I, I, I think the great thing about a a a is that the steps teach you how to, um, make amends with yourself and others and get to a point in life that you go forward with the program in your heart. But you can do that without aa, because I did. But anyway, back to the making amends.

I did apologize to some people and say, oh my God, you know, oh God, it was so cringy. Like, you know, you know all those messages and do you know what, no one particularly went, you were an absolute nightmare, or You made my life how? Or Yeah. A a couple of them were like, I, I don't really know what you're talking about.

Shell: Mm-hmm. 

Dawn: And so it made me also understand how hard we are on ourselves because we tell the story. You know, my story is, oh my God, I was texting people at three o'clock in the morning, but which I was, but they weren't reading it till they woke up. 'cause they were like a normal person. So they weren't aware that.

You know? Mm-hmm. That's what I was doing as such, and, and they were just, oh, here she goes again. And then the apology would come and you know, it, it, it's not so, it doesn't feel so bad for them often. Yeah. We just feel awful because something has made us do something that's not in our normal character.

Yeah. And so, you know, again, going back to authenticity, you know, I just wanted to get to a point that Okay, everyone, I'm really sorry. We are not, do we are, you know, I've said I'm not doing it again. I am really not doing it again. How fun is done, like, I'm gonna go to bed. Yeah. And, uh, and wake up in the morning and I'm just not gonna do that.

And, and then what becomes addictive is you, you wanna live that life. You don't want that chaos anymore. You wanna live a quiet and peaceful life. 

Shell: Yeah, and I think I was most surprised when it came to making apologies to people by my friend's reactions when they were saying that they were just so sad for me and they, they had such sadness and that they could see how.

Vulnerable. I was from such a young age and that they, you know, I've got friends. The, one of the greatest things about being in any kind of recovery and talking about community is I've got all these incredible new friends, but I've also reconnected with lots of people from my past, like, you know, school, school friends, like from, you know, tiny and stuff like that.

Um, and just, you know, to hear how much sadness that they had watching me attempt to live my life. And fail at it. Not because I was and, and not because of the reason I thought, not because I was a bad person, I was stupid. I was all of the things I was telling myself. But just because I kept on setting myself up for to, to be in these situations.

And again, I hope that these days and people like yourself, like myself, like the fact that we have more conversations maybe means that friends. Can be a bit more confident to know how to talk to a friend if they're worried, because I know my friends didn't talk to me about it. Not because they didn't care, but because they didn't really have the language and were probably a bit too scared to Yeah, I think the language, they just didn't have the language, you know, like, but would you have 

Dawn: listened?

I wouldn't have listened. 

Shell: No, absolutely not. I just told them to get lost and probably gone and had some more alcohol and some cocaine. Um, and you know, I think that, but I do maybe, I dunno, would I have eventually listened? Maybe not. I was like trying to think that maybe at some point it would've sunk in.

Probably not. 

Dawn: No, I know. I would've been the same. I think it would've been a rebellion. I think it would've been a fuck you. 

Shell: Maybe we were too far gone, Dawn. So maybe before people get to us, um, friends, you know, do, I mean, do you think people are having more open conversations these days about where they're at?

You know, do you think, is there this magical world where people are, you know, not quite getting to the line and them and their friends go like, oh, actually, do you know what? Let's have a conversation. Let's change our lives. Let's not, you know, these kind of more mindful drinkers. What do you think of, of those?

I'd like, I'd like 

Dawn: to say yes. Mm-hmm. But I think. So when I look at my friendship group, you know, bearing in mind it's nine years this year, I haven't managed to influence many people that I know in my personal life. Uh, my sister-in-law is sober, which is great. Um, but apart from that, not many people that I know personally, and I just find that really interesting.

You know, obviously big drinking crowds, that's what I have been hanging around in the whole of my adult life. But I'm just surprised that. You know, there hasn't been a bigger change in that. Mm-hmm. And, but if I look at the younger generation, I think there's just a massive shift. I think it's too expensive.

I think social media, you know, I'm a nineties. Teenager, which I just think I say nineties teenager. I'm not really am I was a twenties in my twenties, late teens, early twenties in, in the nineties. We don't 

Shell: do that kind of math on this show. Don't you worry. 

Dawn: But we did, but we didn't have social media. 

Shell: No. If I look 

Dawn: back at the states that I was in, if there'd been mobile phones, I think that would've had a massive impact on what I would've drunk like in public.

Mm. You know, I think I probably would've stayed, I think it would've been safer. So I think the shift is more in the younger generation going into twenties, into thirties. I think the people that I work with are more forties, fifties, sixties, even seventies. 

Shell: Mm. 

Dawn: Um, and I do think that if you were drinking a lot in the nineties.

That is quite a classic age group because that's when the changes mm-hmm with social media really started. Um, and yeah. 

Shell: Yeah. No, I think that, yeah, maybe the only thing about the whole young people not drinking as much, I have a concern because you just actually mentioned it and said if maybe social media had been around, I'd have just drank at home.

I have a concern. That we are gonna have a generation of people who are going to be lost because they have been told that Gen X don't drink Gen X, gen Z, sorry, gen X drink and US Millennium Gen X drink. Oh, we are the power. We are the, yeah, exactly. Um, I think there's this di again, it's that dis it's the danger of dialogue and around what, what it looks like to be a sober person, all that.

I think there's Gen Z people because. We don't drink because it's a character flaw. We don't drink because we're born that way. We drink because we're in pain and there's gonna be a whole group of lost people that drink secretly at home because Gen Z don't drink. Yeah. Um, and that, I think that that's, I dunno, I just personally think that it's really dangerous and that maybe if you could, because that was a big thing about the whole, um, hospitality and my anger around hospitality.

Everyone drinks in hospitality. They still come to work on Monday. Shell, you're a failure because you can't come to work on work anymore. It's that whole kind of Gen Z thing. Like, well, you can't be an alcoholic. You're Gen Z. You don't drink. 

Dawn: Yeah. Also, I think, I think COVID had a massive impact on them as well, that it is this kind of sitting at home gaming.

Um, you know, it's not very social particularly, and things like that. You know, I, my drinking was very much around social when I was in my twenties, you know? Mm. It was Friday night. You'd drink at h, you'd prank at home, and then you'd go out. Because it was cheaper to drink at home and then you drink. I just have a few that, well, that was the aim, wasn't it?

And then you still get home at three o'clock. A little bottle of vodka in your bag. 

Shell: Little sneaky bottle of vodka in your handbag. Well down down your Kneehigh boots. I had a friend who used to put a bottle of vodka down her knee, high boots. 

Dawn: I, you've just brought back a, a memory of being in like a really dingy dive club in Bournemouth and, um, and being so lazy to go to the bar that I used to drink Pints of Rose.

I mean, that's not good, is it? Oh, oh, yeah. And it wasn't, you know, the pale blush. It wasn't that, it was like the weak ribena color rose point of. I mean, the signs were there, weren't they? Oh my God. Only took me another 20 years to give the stuff up 

Shell: when I, yeah, my last year of drinking, I moved to Rose, which should have been such a big sign that there was something really wrong.

I suddenly started drinking Rose like, girl, Christ help. 

Dawn: She needs help, 

Shell: man. Literally. But yeah, no, I think it'll be, I think it's gonna be a, it'll be, I mean. We've talked about COVID, the ramifications of that, like you said, five years later, is still very much being felt by so many of us, both positive and negative.

And yeah, I think the next kind of 10, 15, 20 years is gonna be a really interesting one to watch develop. But I'm fucking glad I'm doing it sober just for today. But, you know, I'm, I'm certainly glad and, um, yeah, I think that. It's just, yeah, it's just so wonderful that there are people like yourself and there are others, but people like yourself who are out there saying, let's give it a go.

Don't worry. You won't lose who you are. In fact, you'll probably find out who you really are and. Don't worry. If you feel like being a cunt still, just don't do it at 3:00 AM Yeah, 

Dawn: no, 3:00 AM cunt. No 

Shell: three. Yeah. Just do it at nine o'clock like everyone else. 

Dawn: I also, I also say to people, if you can turn up to a meeting, any meeting, a zoom meeting, an in-person meeting, whatever your choice is, if you can turn up there on your own in a bunch of, in front of a bunch of strangers and say, I need help.

You don't need a drink. Like that is the scariest thing you are ever gonna have to do. And if you can do that sober and say, I need help. You don't need to drink, you've already done. 

Shell: Oh my God. Asking for help is the hardest thing anyone will ever have to do in their life. I think they're who you are and, and yet it is the most powerful thing and it's the start of something that you can't even imagine.

And to be honest, I think if we did tell everybody how good sobriety was, then they'd all be sober and I'd fucking well annoying because there's nothing more annoying. Than a sober, smug person. Right. We don't want a whole world of them. Oh God, we do not. Oh, so we'll keep it a little bit quiet, right? It's, it's pretty good.

It's not that good. Oh, look, Dawn, I could literally talk to you for another 78 hours. Um, we've had. Slight little whispers about maybe a fishy podcast. And I really hope that that's something that you do kind of go down the rabbit hole of because I think it would be fab. Um, thank you so much. I will put in the show notes everywhere that people can find you, including your home address, I, Sean, um, in case they want to send you a present.

Um, thank you so much for being the last guest on. Oh, you, it's been great. 

Dawn: Lovely to met you. Thank you. 

Shell: Thank you.