OK Senior Law Podcast
This is the podcast from the OK Senior Law firm in Tulsa Oklahoma. The hosts are the partners of the firm Jorjana Marx, Blaine Frizzell and Todd Whatley. They cover by themselves all the topics you need to know about Elder Law, Estate Planning and Medicaid benefits. They also have guests from around the Tulsa area talking about their businesses that can also help you succeed as a senior or the family of a senior.
OK Senior Law Podcast
Ep 2 OK Senior Law Misconceptions of Estate Planning and Medicaid
Have you ever wondered how to safeguard your assets while navigating the complexities of elder law in Oklahoma? Our enlightening discussion peels back the layers of senior legal services, revealing how to approach legal counsel, the vitality of a well-drafted power of attorney, and the ins and outs of elder care post-hospitalization. Whether you're facing these challenges yourself or assisting a loved one, we equip you with the know-how to steer through these intricate matters with confidence, dispelling the myths that too often cloud judgment in casual chitchat about elder law.
This episode also shares the heartening story of a couple who, against the odds, preserved their legacy in the face of nursing home care—a testament to the power of informed Medicaid planning. With my co-hosts, Jorjana Marks, Blaine Frizzell and Todd Whatley, we dissect the misunderstood rules of Medicaid, provide reassurance to single individuals and their children concerned about financial burdens, and emphasize the essential nature of comprehensive legal documentation. Our dialogue is set to challenge the misunderstandings, offering clarity, direction, and peace of mind for all those looking to protect their future and that of their loved ones.
Welcome to OK Senior Law Podcast, your guiding light through the complexities of a state planning and elder law, right here in the heart of Tulsa, oklahoma. Join us as we demystify wills, trusts, tax planning and elder care with insights from our distinguished legal experts Blame Frazel with his advanced LLM in tax law, georgiana Marks with her passionate advocacy, and Todd Watley, a certified elder law attorney. Bring their wealth of knowledge and experience to empower you with the tools you need for peace of mind in planning your legacy. Let's navigate the intricacies of a state law together, ensuring your future and that of your loved ones is secure. Here is Blame, georgiana and Todd.
Speaker 2:That's right, this is the Oklahoma Senior Law Podcast and this is our second episode and we are so glad that you were listening and hopefully you heard our first one, where we kind of introduced ourselves and talked about just some of the common misconceptions. But today I am here with Georgiana and Blame and we're going to talk about just the office, how our office is set up and what you can expect when you come in. And then I want to talk about probably my favorite topic is misconceptions things that people oh, georgiana and Blame always laugh when I bring this up, but I always make reference to Betty at the Beauty Shop.
Speaker 2:You know, Betty at the Beauty Shop knows everything, and she knows France has lost everything because her husband went into the nursing home and everybody knows. You know, betty knows this, and so there's a lot of places you can get some really bad information and we're going to address some of that today. So welcome Blame, welcome Georgiana, thanks for being here today.
Speaker 3:Yes, yes, excited to talk.
Speaker 2:So let's talk about the office. There's one other person in the office, but just talk about how that process, where they call, who they'll talk to and just how this experience will go.
Speaker 3:Yeah, yeah, yeah. So we have a little office here in Tulsa at 15th and Lewis Lewis-ish, I tell people and it is a small little one-story office, very accessible both by car, because the parking lot is very small and you just park right out front and walk on in. But what we like is for you to call in first and we'll give the number. But we like you to call in and in our office it's Blame and me and Kayla, and Kayla is our everything person right now. She answers the phone and she helps a lot of people just over the phone and then she sets up appointments and people will call in to have a consult with us.
Speaker 3:So you may be thinking like what do I need a consult for? Why do I? I don't even know what I need, right, and so we kind of help a whole spectrum of people and issues where sometimes people know specifically hey, I know my dad needs a power of attorney and I've heard you can do it and so I need that. Before people say I just don't even know. My mom's went into the hospital on Saturday for she fell and broke her leg and they're releasing her on Friday and I don't know where she's going. I don't know where to go, I don't know where our money is.
Speaker 3:So people have this whole range of issues and sometimes you know we're specifically like come on in, let's talk about powers of attorney, and then sometimes we say you know what, let's sit down and let me just tell you how it all works so you feel a little better and we'll tell you what we can do to help with things.
Speaker 3:But your first step is to call the office and talk to Kayla and she will help you sort that out and figure out what you actually need from us. So call the office, let's start with that. And then we like to set up a consult with people and that consult. You pay a fee for that because you're going to meet with at least two of us usually and that's where we go through the situation with you and tell you what you need to do or what we can do for you, and so it's an hour long and we just do it a flat fee, and we have found that we give people so much information that they need for their situation that it's very valuable. I had someone the other day who we're going to do just a little thing for him and he said this was worth the fee I paid.
Speaker 3:We got so much information from you and he was a little maybe untrusting of lawyers overall, but he was so grateful for that consult and he was like this was worth it, slammed his amdem on the desk. Hello, yeah, I think the consult is worth your time and then we know what we can do to help you and how we're going to move forward with that. And, blaine, you want to tell them a little bit about how we do that?
Speaker 4:Well, and one other thing that I like to say is, when you talk to Kayla, she'll probably ask you some information your phone number, perhaps your email address because she's going to try to get you an intake form that you can fill out. And it's really best if you can fill that out and get it to us before your meeting, because we know that if you filled out the intake form, we're going to be able to be able to focus in immediately and that'll short the duration of your consult. Typically, we're able to answer most people's questions and focus in and give them solutions in a one-hour context. But we can really do that when you've filled out an intake form. A lot of times, even if you haven't, but if you have, it really helps us focus in on the issues. And so we like to do that, we like to have you talk with Kayla and she'll get you that form to fill out.
Speaker 4:Again, if you're not able to fill it all out, come on in, and usually we're able to drill down by just asking you plenty of questions when you get here, to kind of find out what your problem is and what the options are for you to proceed. And so that's what we'll do in that initial consult, so we always like talking with people. Every case is different and requires a different solution a lot of times, so it's good when Georgianne and I are there together and we bring Todd in when we have questions that we can't answer, and it's good to have multiple heads involved so that we can craft the best solution for you.
Speaker 3:And what I like about us too, is that we're all on the same page with. We're not going to come up with the most complicated money out of your pocket solution. I am constantly trying to find the simplest way, the cheapest way to save people money and get what they want done, and so we're not like, oh, everybody needs a trust. Everybody has to have a trust. We look at what you come in the door with and say, ok, here's what I think is the most cost-effective way of doing what you want. So people appreciate that too, I think.
Speaker 2:Yeah, thank you for that. You know, that was one thing that I was absolutely adamant about that we're going to give people what they need and a lot of times what you need is not that complicated and therefore it's not that expensive. And people ask us all the time why did you talk me out of a trust? I'm like, because you don't need a trust and yeah, our fee is one fourth of what it would have been. But we sleep really good at night because we know that we're giving good, solid advice to people who do exactly what they need to do as efficiently and economically as possible. And that's. You want to see my blood pressure go up. It's when some sweet little lady comes in that has a trust that leaves everything outright to one child. It's like you didn't need a trust to do that. But sometimes I'll ask why did you do a trust? It's like, well, that's just the only thing that the lawyer, that's the only option that the lawyer gave me and that's just. It just makes my blood boil.
Speaker 2:When that happens, we will give you all the options and tell you. You know this is we can accomplish your goal with this tool and, surprisingly, it's very cheap. But sometimes there are if your distribution plan is more complicated, we can do that. It is going to be more expensive. But it's you telling us hey, that easy plan doesn't work for me. Okay, we can do this. We can definitely do anything that you want to. It is going to be a little more expensive. And so let's talk about some of the misconceptions people walk in with. Okay, since we're on, since we're sort of on a state planning, talk about a will. Talk about what people think a will does versus what it actually does.
Speaker 3:I don't want to. I don't want to steal the stage too much, but I will tell you. People think that a will does everything. Everything is what, in my experience, is that they think, well, I've got a will so my daughter can go to the bank for me and sign my checks. Nope, that's not what a will does, right. They think it's like a power of attorney, like it's. It's given them, like this, power to do anything because she's named in the will as the executor, right, or we call it a personal representative. So a will is really just used. If you are in probate court, that's really the only time that it has any legal effect. Is that there is a probate because you have passed away and something is stuck in your name and now your family has to open a probate matter and then they take that will to the judge and it tells the court and everyone how you want your property to be passed. So it is helpful, it's great. It gives you all the power to say where you want your stuff to go if you pass away.
Speaker 3:But it's not going to let your daughter go to the bank for you or sign you into the hospital or do any of these other things. It has a very limited use. It's still good to have.
Speaker 4:Yeah, and I will say that, in addition to that, we do counsel some of our clients and they're surprised when we say you don't need a will. And they're almost shocked what do you mean? Doesn't everybody need a will? And the answer is no, and we hope that you. Our goal for every client that walks in the door is that you will not need to use a will. Now, when we do a trust for somebody, we always do a companion will with it. That's part of the package, but that's only in the to be used in the instance that they failed to get everything retitled in their trust, and so so I just want to make that point that that not you don't have to have a will. We're going to try to help you avoid the probate process where that's the situation where you would need a will.
Speaker 4:And then one other thing I'd just like to follow up on is our fees. We like, in 90% of the time, we like to quote at what we call a flat fee. That's just one amount. We don't for most of our matters we don't charge hourly and we find that our clients really like that because they know they know, coming in and going, what their fees are. We don't want any of our clients to get a surprise bill from us, and one way to accomplish that is with flat fees, and for most matters we're able to quote a flat fee based on what we're suggesting you need, and then knowing that makes it easier for our clients to decide how to proceed if they know exactly what it's going to cost.
Speaker 2:Yeah, I mean, there's so many times people don't call their lawyer with something that they think might be important. It's like well, you know that phone calls going to cost me 80 bucks if I call, so maybe they don't need to know that. It's like no, we need to know stuff and you know what they? Flat fee, just call us. Please call us. We don't charge for that. It's part of the process. Please keep us up to date. But just knowing and I think a flat fee puts you and the client on the same side of the table. Let's get this thing done as quick as possible and everyone appreciates that. So, ok, let's talk about some Medicaid myths, so things that people think about Medicaid. One of my favorite cases in the world is the married Medicaid case, where one spouse is going into the nursing home and the other spouse has not. Let's talk about what people think will happen in that situation and what can happen in that situation.
Speaker 3:I love this because it's almost always really good news. And people come in in the depths of despair and fear and then we come in and we're like, hey, there's all sorts of things that we can do here. But specifically what people have heard is I'll give you just one of them they have heard we're going to lose the house. And what am I going to do? I'm still living in it. You know he's in, he's in the nursing home and I'm going to lose my house to pay for his nursing home. That is a myth.
Speaker 2:That doesn't happen.
Speaker 4:And I got it. I got to use my favorite story ever and it happened early on. But we had a situation where a client came in. He brought his daughter and he had been care caring for his wife for several years and we had just about worn himself out and his health was being affected taking care of his wife. He came in with his wife and he said here's what I'm going to do. I've got this is my retirement. I've got it. We've got a house. I'm going to sell the house, I'm going to move in with my daughter and I'm going to use all that money to pay the $7,000 a month to make sure my wife is well taken care of in a facility. And that was his plan.
Speaker 4:And by the end of that meeting I remember Todd crafting this solution for him and just the weight was being lifted off his shoulder. You could see it and basically he was not only not going to have to sell his house, he wasn't going to lose any of the other assets that he had had for his nest egg, that he had built up, and he was going to be able to stay at home and keep all of his assets and get his wife on Medicaid and then have money that he could use to enhance her stay in this nursing home. And when they got up to leave I remember asking them the son or the daughter, and the dad. I said which one of you is happier about Todd's plan? Dad, you're not going to live with your have to sell your house, or, daughter, that you're not going to have to have your dad live with you the rest of his life. Anyway, it was a great meeting.
Speaker 2:Yeah, both of them were very happy with that solution.
Speaker 4:Yeah, yeah.
Speaker 2:Yeah, we do that every day. I mean, the rules are there, but you have to understand the rules. One of the most common non-elder law solutions to that is oh, get a divorce, okay, That'll fix it, and you've been married 60 years. The last thing you want to do is get a divorce when you're having to deal with all these other things, and the law is actually much more generous if you stay married, and so recommending someone get a divorce is just terrible advice, and you don't have to.
Speaker 2:We can protect upwards of a million dollars. We can get one spouse on Medicaid not always, and this is not specifically legal advice, but it's as a general rule. We can get people with hundreds of thousands of dollars, not including the house. Okay, this is hundreds of thousands, not counting the house. We can get you the care that you need and not lose any money or anything, and it's just. You just have to know the rules, and so I promise you, betty at the beauty shop knows a lot of stuff, but she doesn't understand Medicaid, okay, and so if she has told you anything different than that, don't trust Betty at the beauty shop. So what about a single person? Okay, that one spouse has passed away, and now that person is now going into the nursing home, are they going to lose everything?
Speaker 3:Generally Blaine, you field this one.
Speaker 4:I'll just start out and then you can finish, because one of the things that we have children coming in who they have a parent, either a widow or widower, and they're single, their parents single, and one of the things that the kids first think that they might be on the hook to pay for their parents long term care, and that's not the case in Oklahoma. So that's just one thing, and then, georgene, you might talk about some of this typical thing, yeah, yeah.
Speaker 3:So like Todd, said for a married couple we can usually generally protect most of it, but for a single person the rules are different. So the state has the state and the federal rules are different for married couples versus single couples, and even with them, a lot of times the kids are like well, I guess we're just going to spend it all for the next 12 months or whatever, and then when she's down to nothing, then what? But she also needs this occupational therapy that it doesn't cover. How are we going to pay for that? We say the rules allow you to protect some part of your mom's assets. A single person can protect some part of it. We throw out the number 50%. It's not always 50%, but there's. The rules allow for some of it to be protected and get her on benefits.
Speaker 2:So Now let's just talk about just for listeners out there, you're like, oh well, that's great news, so I'll just wait until we need care. The key thing to that is a power of attorney. Okay, you have to have a very comprehensive power of attorney, and let me just tell you, listeners, if you think, okay, well, I'll just go online and I'll download a power of attorney, or even go to my family law attorney and they can draft one for me. When you get to the question of should I initial this spot that says my agent can give away all of my money, you're going to say no, no, why would I ever want to do that? Well, you want to do that when you're going into the nursing home.
Speaker 2:The way we protect your assets, like George Anastasia, the way we can protect 50%, sometimes 60%, sometimes 70% can be protected.
Speaker 2:But we can only do that if you have a power of attorney that authorizes gifting, and many times the agent has to be able to gift to themselves, and a lot of powers of attorney, for tax reasons, don't allow that, but that tax reason is basically never in effect for our clients, and so you have to have and that's just one clause there were basically nine powers that need to be in your power of attorney that we see missing many times, and so we spoke in our last episode about the importance of specialization, and that's why we do what we do and we focus on.
Speaker 2:What we do is we create a power of attorney that has this language in it that allows us to do what we needed to do In the merit case. We need to transfer that house, we need to get to the spouse's IRA that is in the nursing home, we need access to that, and you can only do that with a very comprehensive power of attorney. We also do healthcare powers, attorney living wills, whole thing. There's a whole package that everyone needs, and I would encourage our listeners that if you're out there thinking man, that sounds really cool, we can do that. Well, we can, but you have to do a little bit of pre-planning and that's where you need to call us and schedule an appointment to come in and let us look at your current documents, but get your documents up to date. So anything y'all would like to add to that.
Speaker 3:No, but I, yes. Apparently I'm sure you're seeing the national trend too, where a lot of places are finding reasons to not accept the power of attorney, even the template form or the ones that you're downloading. People are downloading off the internet. The banks are not accepting those, and so their kids or their agents or whoever, are hitting these roadblocks of like, hey, this document doesn't work. And of course we look at it and I say like, yeah, I see why. You know, I know that these banks I won't say any names I know that they're not accepting it because you've got, you know, two agents named. That's one of the big trends is not to accept. So yeah, it's. I think it's always better to talk to somebody early and get those documents in place so that if something happens, yeah, when you have us do your documents, you're also having us defend our documents.
Speaker 2:So if you go to the bank with our document and they don't take it, we'll call them. Okay, we'll escalate straight up to their attorneys. We're like hey, state law says you have to take this. What's the problem here? We'll just discuss it and they may not listen to you, but they will listen to us. Okay, you get Blaine or Georgiano ticked off at a bank and I promise you they will get. They will get some action somewhere. So, yeah, I mean that's what people they're like. Well, I'll just download this off the internet. Well, who's going to defend that for you? We will defend our documents. That's part of our fee, is you? If it's not being accepted, we'll we'll jump in and do our best to to get it done.
Speaker 4:So any other misconceptions out there that you want to talk about real quick Well, as we were talking about them, I was thinking I've got half a dozen, but I don't want this to be an hour-long podcast.
Speaker 4:We can do more podcasts in the future, but one in particular that just popped into my head is we have some clients that think, oh, I've heard about this. Five years, that means 60 months that I can't, that mom and dad can't make a gift to me, or else there's going to be some kind of a penalty or it might disqualify them from getting Medicaid. And so there's lots of misconceptions here, but the biggest one is we always discourage mom and dad from making gifts to children, just outright, like signing a deed over to their when they get a little bit older. They sign a deed deeding their house to their children, and why would we do that? You know, if they do it more than five years before they go into nursing home, won't that work. Yes, it might work for Medicaid, because Medicaid DHS is not going to look further than five years back. But for the IRS, you've just created a huge problem for yourself with capo gains tax issues, and so we help people with that's another big misconception that we see.
Speaker 2:Yeah, yeah, we can do a whole podcast just on gifting and should. Okay, we can do that. There are some unique things you can do, but for the single person, what we're doing is gifting. Okay, yes, you can gift during those five years. You just have to know the rules around it and know how to do it.
Speaker 2:But yes, as a general rule, please don't give away your house because it creates all kinds of problems. You know both. Legally, it's the kids house. They can sell it. If they get sued, you're going to lose your house. It just creates all kinds of problems.
Speaker 2:Again, you need a specialist, you need someone that this is all they do and they know these rules. And that is Oklahoma Senior Law. We know this stuff and this is all we do. We don't dabble in other things. We do this and so, all right, anything else? Any final thoughts on this one? No, okay, so okay. Well, listeners, thank you very much for joining us and we are our next episode. I already know what it is because we've already recorded it. It's on trust and there's a new trust company and some really cool things. If you have a trust and you're not real happy with the person you chose as trustee or you have some concerns, join us. In our next episode we talk about that and it's really good episodes. So please subscribe, please share this with people, tell people about us and you'll get some really good information and hopefully we can help you out. So thanks, georgiana, thanks Blaine, for joining us and we will see you next time, okay, thanks?
Speaker 1:Thanks, Thanks. Thank you for tuning in to OK Senior Law Podcast. We hope today's episode has provided you with valuable insights into estate planning and elder law that resonate with your life and aspirations in Tulsa and surrounding areas. Remember, planning your estate is not just about legal documents. It's about ensuring a lasting legacy and peace of mind for you and your loved ones. For more information or to schedule a consultation with our expert attorneys Blaine Frazzell, Georgiana Marks or Todd Watley, visit our website at wwwokseniorlawcom. Protect your future today. Until next time, take care.