Ep.18 Challenges and Solutions in Modern Hunting Practices

Are antler restrictions the key to larger, healthier deer populations, or do they hinder new hunters and those hunting for meat? Join us as we tackle this hotly debated issue, exploring the merits of letting young bucks mature to potentially improve the gene pool and increase trophy-sized bucks. Our guests bring diverse perspectives to the table, from successful management strategies in the United States to innovative programs like "earn a buck," aiming to strike a balance between conservation and hunting opportunities. We also emphasize the crucial role of personal responsibility in sustainable hunting practices.

Switching gears, we dive into the ethics and environmental impact of using lead versus steel shot in waterfowl hunting. Should strict steel shot regulations be enforced to prevent water pollution, or are there reasonable exceptions for isolated ponds? Our guests provide a thought-provoking discussion on the balance between effective hunting techniques and environmental stewardship. This episode promises a deep dive into two of the most contentious topics in the hunting community, delivering practical insights and ethical considerations for passionate hunters and conservationists alike.

Check us out on Facebook Hunts On Outfitting, or myself Ken Marr. Reach out and Tell your hunting buddies about the podcast if you like it, Thanks!

Transcript

Speaker 1 0:07

So with the antler restriction, I think that we should have a small antler restriction. I don't know why. I think button bucks you should just kind of leave them, let them go, let them grow. I mean, I'm kind of on the fence about that one, I guess, because somebody that's hunting deer for the first time, or just somebody that's after the meat, yeah, I mean, let them hammer down, I guess. Or you can look at it like this is going to make our deer population better. We're going to have more bucks, increase the gene pool. I don't know. I guess I'm going to leave that to my guests here to see. I'm either or, either or.

Speaker 2 0:45

I'll start.

Speaker 2 0:46

So I actually am against it. Well, for one thing, I think you can't make a hunting law on one group's principles that really don't affect anyone's safety or animal management to the degree that they think it does. So there's that. The other thing was, too, like you said, people getting into hunting. But I would have agreed with you until my fiancée decided she was going to take her hunter safety and shoot a deer. Yes, and I can tell you that her first year, if it had been anything but a spike horn, that never would have happened pride or no?

Speaker 2 1:38

okay no, no, just to try to get somebody. That's really not done. A lot of hunting, are you saying that superior to women?

Speaker 1 1:43

don't, okay, not at all. So to get somebody. That's really not done a lot of hunting. Are you saying that men are superior to women? Not at all, not at all.

Speaker 2 1:47

So to get somebody you're trying to get me off topic. So trying to get somebody to learn how to hunt that has never hunted when they were a child is way harder than trying to get a 16-year-old that's always been around guns and hunting to kill his first deer. So I would say that if that deer had had any brain power at all, quite honestly that wouldn't have worked out, and that was a pretty cool moment for her to shoot her first year.

Speaker 1 2:14

So spike corn.

Speaker 2 2:15

Yep, it was. I think it actually had one little why. But it was it was a spike corn, right, it was a yearling yes. A spike horn, right, it was a yearling yes.

Speaker 1 2:23

um, anyway, so so for that reason, I feel like it's I feel like it's kind of discouraging to have like a boys trophy club kind of a a complex to it. Or do you think there would be more bigger bucks out there if we had? Well, and I'm not, done with that yet.

Speaker 2 2:40

Okay so, but at the same time, to me, if you really honestly for lack of better words give a shit about deer and deer hunting in the province of new brunswick, you gotta sit and think should I really kill this spike?

Speaker 2 2:55

on the first day places like you got to be okay with not killing one after you get so many years in, right like I guess. I guess most of us I think all have that mindset right. Like we're. We're not going to go out and shoot the first year we see. But unfortunately there's a lot of guys that have been in it for a long time that still have that mentality.

Speaker 1 3:14

Well, I mean, some people are really just after the meat, and that's okay, well, and that's fine.

Speaker 2 3:17

but go shoot a doe. But you gotta, you gotta kind of self regulate on that Right, and I think that also comes down to personal responsibility.

Speaker 1 3:25

So you think in the States where they have earn a dough, that's I like that program.

Speaker 2 3:30

I do too, or sorry, earn a box. Shoot a dough to get a box, yeah.

Speaker 1 3:33

Yes, earn a buck. Yep, I like that. Yeah, and if you had the?

Speaker 2 3:37

deer to do it. If you have the population 100%, I would rather see more personal responsibility taken than them have to add a law to say hey, don't be a dumbass. Do I want there to be big bucks everywhere? You're fucking right, I do.

Speaker 1 3:56

Yes, go ahead.

Speaker 4 4:01

I see Dalton's side of it too, but I'm going to say no to antler restriction, kind of more for a different reason. I do agree we need some sort of restriction. I don't know how to manage that Because our deer population in New Brunswick is shit.

Speaker 1 4:12

It's not managed well.

Speaker 4 4:14

It's not tracked well, we just don't and hunters don't manage it. We don't manage it Like down in the states. Everyone's watched videos for hunting down in the states how well they managed here it is the guys from the states.

Speaker 1 4:23

If you're listening, our hats are off.

Speaker 4 4:25

Yeah, like it is truly truly remarkable because we suck at it, but I look at and restriction the way that, like anything else you do, if you're raising beef, if you're raising sheep, if you're raising a chicken, if you're raising hamsters, if you look at human beings in general, there's always going to be a runt, yes, and a smaller version you could have I feel attacked right now sorry, I was. I was what I was getting.

Speaker 3 4:51

I was looking right, yeah, you're here, but okay, yeah, I look at this way like you can have.

Speaker 4 4:56

You can have a 200 inch deer if you put a 200 inch deer in the class of someone like. I don't even know how to explain this, but if you're looking, 200 inch deer in the class of someone like I don't even know how to explain this, but if you're looking at 200 inch deer versus like well, just the just, uh, if you had a beef farm and he had the best bowl ever, that was worth $3 million at a sale versus a 200 inch deer, they're in the same category.

Speaker 3 5:19

Okay.

Speaker 4 5:20

Then you have your six year old-old, seven-point fully mature deer, versus some run-to-the-mill crossbreed, right Like you could have a fully mature buck. Yeah, that is six, seven points just from his genetics or just the way he grew.

Speaker 3 5:40

Yes.

Speaker 4 5:41

Or you could have a 200-inch deer at the same age, right? So it's hard to judge, because you could be shooting a four-point or a six-point that's a year and a half, or you could be shooting a six-point that's four and a half, right? So it's hard to judge maturity.

Speaker 1 5:59

I see where you're going with that.

Speaker 2 6:00

Might I also add too, if you let all of those deer survive what does? That do for your genetics right? Exactly, they say that they select, but honestly, I would have to talk to somebody that really knows a lot more than me.

Speaker 4 6:15

Yeah, and what happens to that mature seven point? He just lives his life till he dies, right and he breeds how many does a year.

Speaker 4 6:23

Exactly, right, that's just kind of the way I look at it. Yeah, it is one way to definitely go about it. And sure, there's probably a lot more deer that grow up to be a nice eight, 10, 12 point, real, respectable deer than a fully mature six, seven point. That's probably a one-off, but just as much as a one-off as a 200 inch or 150 inch deer around here. Yeah, right, because I I like well, like I know a few buddies have shot like a very old, mature deer and they probably weren't even on the downhill yet and it was only seven point deer yeah, morgan, that was on here.

Speaker 2 6:54

I think it'll be three weeks or a month from the release date that was the muzzleloader episode. Yeah, yeah he, uh, he had a picture one time but this was years and years ago of a great big four point. Yeah, massive like this was a very mature deer. Well, with antler restrictions, right that that deer's not gonna die. Oh, that's the thing.

Speaker 1 7:13

So that thing's in there breeding with antler restrictions, though depending on how big he was, I mean a lot of them will go. I've seen in texas on how much further the antlers stick out than the ears. Like they measure them, that's not you know, but they measure it from, not from the ears. But that's how you kind of judge them.

Speaker 4 7:33

It's not by points. It's not by points.

Speaker 1 7:35

So many different antler builds out there there is, but it's not by points, it's just by most of it's just by.

Speaker 2 7:40

Most of them are. I think it's so many on each side, isn't it? Is it?

Speaker 4 7:43

Well, that's elk for sure, yeah.

Speaker 3 7:45

We don't have elk, but I just know that is for elk.

Speaker 4 7:48

There are some states.

Speaker 3 7:49

We need some message calling from the states. Send us a message.

Speaker 4 7:51

Three a side, or something like that. I know muleys be a three, I think it's.

Speaker 1 8:08

So where are we leaving off with this one, then it's, I feel like there needs to be some way. Do you think we should be?

Speaker 2 8:11

able to shoot spike horns, logan, I'm gonna say spike no. Okay, dalton, you think yes. Do you think that we, as in me and you know, do I think that?

Speaker 4 8:15

no any hunter yeah, yeah I would say, if you're young and starting out and you're excited about it, by all means I mean at the end of the day personal responsibility at some point has got to kick in, and that that's kind of where I stand at the end of the day, if the memory and your smile on your face is worth pulling that trigger, yes, all the power to you, right? But if you're shooting a spike at 45 years old and been hunting since you were 16 to say, oh, I want the meat, and that deer weighs 112 pounds, you skin got. Take the head off, there's 40 pounds, you debone it and you have literally 35 to 40 pounds of boneless meat.

Speaker 2 8:51

And you're in zone 22, where you're guaranteed a big dry doe.

Speaker 1 8:55

We don't want to get too specific to this province, though, because we're talking about North America, yeah though, because we're talking about North America.

Speaker 2 9:01

Yeah, yeah, yeah, sorry, that was more of a personal. Yeah, that was more you should be sorry.

Speaker 4 9:04

It was more ranting area.

Speaker 1 9:07

So, but do you think our bigger buck antler population would benefit from an antler restriction?

Speaker 4 9:18

Well, naturally yes, because a four point, even at three or four years old, will probably turn into a six point or an eight point. So it definitely would. Yes, it would just let even those smaller class bucks, at the end of the day at full maturity, grow to their full maturity of an eight, which someone would still be more than happy with. If I had a big, mature eight walk out in front of me, I'd be more than happy taking that. If I had a big, mature eight walk out in front of me, I'd be more than happy taking that yes.

Speaker 4 9:43

But so I'd say, at the end of the day, antler restriction is definitely going to get you bigger bucks shot. It's just going to even take longer to grow those smaller class bucks into a shooting class buck even if it's not a 150 inch deer, maybe 110 inch deer but to mature that deer and grow it.

Speaker 2 10:01

It's definitely going to make a difference on the buck shot. Well, if you save, if you save 10 spike horns per zone per year, it'll help right any but it again, like I, I don't know what the right way to to regulate it is, because I don't think personal responsibility is is really something we're going to see.

Speaker 1 10:20

No.

Speaker 2 10:20

Right.

Speaker 1 10:22

I'd agree.

Speaker 2 10:23

Now I'm more confused than I was when we started.

Speaker 4 10:26

I don't know where to stand now. If you get a real tall, four-corn young spike, that's going to grow to be a pretty good deer. But if you get those real stubby, short ugly spikes, they probably aren't Unicorns man yeah there's a breed around here.

Speaker 1 10:40

It's weird. I'm confused too, but that doesn't take much, so we're iffy on this one.

Speaker 4 10:46

It is definitely an iffy topic.

Speaker 1 10:47

The group consensus is iffy.

Speaker 4 10:49

There are ways to look at it and say yes, and there's ways to look at it and say no, yeah, okay, all right.

Speaker 1 10:53

So next subject, and again, if you don't agree with me, be prepared to have your mic muted. Next subject we talked about this on the break. When hunting waterfowl boys because we hunt waterfowl here and some of our listeners might as well do you think so it's law that you have to use steel or tungsten?

Speaker 2 11:13

No, Is tungsten on there, Tungsten bismuth, I think.

Speaker 1 11:18

When hunting on water.

Speaker 2 11:20

No, when hunting anywhere. Well, waterfowl in general here.

Speaker 1 11:23

Waterfowl. We're talking about waterfowl.

Speaker 4 11:25

You have to be shooting steel. Shot for waterfowl game.

Speaker 2 11:28

Sorry, Woodcock, I may have said that wrong.

Speaker 1 11:31

You did 100%.

Speaker 2 11:32

I don't think you need steel to hunt Woodcock.

Speaker 1 11:34

No, you don't.

Speaker 4 11:35

I am not going to say one or the other.

Speaker 1 11:37

We're just going to say hunting over water, you need to be using steel. Are we going over water? We're going over water. Yes.

Speaker 4 11:42

Over water Because waterfowl, I hunt more out of water than I do in. Okay, because all waterfowl, hunting all waterfowl.

Speaker 1 11:48

Yes.

Speaker 4 11:49

Ducks and geese.

Speaker 1 11:50

Okay, we are talking of lead, no lead. You use lead, you're dead.

Speaker 4 12:03

Probably not really, but Well, now I'm torn.

Speaker 1 12:06

So I'm saying, when you were hunting over water here, you have to use steel, not lead. Do you guys agree? Or do you think no, screw it, we should be able to use lead.

Speaker 4 12:15

If it's an enclosed pond that isn't leading to a brook, I'd say have at it really yeah, why don't?

Speaker 1 12:21

I'm against the lead. I am against if it's a.

Speaker 4 12:23

The thing is as far as I stand with the laws, as far as ethical shooting goes, lead will hit harder. It mushrooms it hard, it kills harder.

Speaker 1 12:32

It just does but but it poisons the water yeah, but if you're in a still sitting, pond on your own property.

Speaker 4 12:37

In a little sitting pond on your own property, in a little duck hole that isn't leading to any streams or brooks, I'd say go at it. But if you're on a river hunting or a large lake hunting that is leading to other water sources, I would say stick with steel.

Speaker 1 12:53

Okay, but the law is over water, so pick one.

Speaker 4 13:00

Well, I can't shoot lead over a field.

Speaker 2 13:02

If I was hunting a wide open cornfield for ducks and geese, I can't shoot lead you could hunt a rock face for ducks and still shoot steel yeah, I think they should just leave it at that.

Speaker 4 13:12

Shoot steel, no lead well, how about we just compromise and say over water steel, over field lead.

Speaker 1 13:21

Okay, I'd agree with that. Dalton, where are you at?

Speaker 2 13:24

I'm on the side of ethics.

Speaker 1 13:26

No lead.

Speaker 2 13:27

Always lead.

Speaker 1 13:28

No lead Lead's bad for the water. Always lead. No, that is not ethics.

Speaker 4 13:33

Dalton, you miss all your shots, all the lead goes in the water.

Speaker 2 13:36

No, it actually doesn't.

Speaker 1 13:39

Because, by the time, if you're shooting on a river, Interesting how many.

Speaker 2 13:41

If you shoot 20 shots At Jeez, those numbers sound bad. If you shoot 10 shots, kill 6 ducks.

Speaker 1 13:50

How many?

Speaker 2 13:50

BBs are actually going in that water. A lot and the amount of no and the amount of. The amount of gallons Of water that are flowing through these rivers and the pollution that's put into them from everywhere else, I don't think that we can hold a candle.

Speaker 1 14:05

If you're not part of the solution, you're part of the problem.

Speaker 2 14:07

I don't think we can hold a candle to the pollution that every time the river goes up. What happens to the lagoon here in Petticoatiac?

Speaker 1 14:14

Yeah, this is just here though.

Speaker 2 14:16

No, no, but I'm just saying. And people used to drink water out of lead pipes Like it's not yes, and they changed that. Right.

Speaker 1 14:22

People also. So here's a fun fact to you guys. So there's a town in Australia I can't remember where and they used to mine asbestos, right, and this is before. They knew it was bad for you. So the kids, instead of having sand in the sandbox and stuff like that, on the playground they had asbestos and the kids would be playing in that and everything, because they didn't know it was bad for you. Then they're like holy shit, this is bad for you. So they told everyone to move out of that town. But there's still a few stubborn people there that still stay. That's in Australia. You guys can look it up, fact check it. So, yes, we used to drink out of lead pipes here, but we didn't know that it was bad. Now we do, and we don't. Most people don't. Uh, you can, you can really pick out the people that still do. You know what I'm saying? Um, I think we should keep lead out of her water. I don't see any water I don't see output.

Speaker 2 15:12

I I really don't. I don't think that the pollution. Actually I really don't, honestly, because the amount of lead that actually ends in the water do you think we should?

Speaker 2 15:22

just add to it well I I don't see how that little bit of lead, especially nowadays when there's half the waterfowl hunters there, used to be like I just I just don't see how you're actually doing that much damage and to me I would rather kill a bird and not have to go through Tom Dick and Harry's woods next door to the river trying to look for the bird and it's still alive. To me that doesn't jive with what we're trying to do here as hunters.

Speaker 1 15:53

Logan Point, canter point, hit your shots.

Speaker 4 15:57

What.

Speaker 2 15:59

Save the water, I mean I've used. No, steel will not kill just as well as lead. No, it won't Steel in a three and a half will kill as good as lead in a two and three quarter. Yes, I agree with that, but a two and three quarter lead should be able to kill any duck ever.

Speaker 4 16:19

On two and three quarters. Steel can kill any duck Right.

Speaker 2 16:22

Yes.

Speaker 4 16:22

Like a lot of guys use two and three quarter steel at like six shot to shoot ducks. I mean I just run two inch BB all year just because I don't feel like messing around. No, sorry, Three inch two shot. What am I saying?

Speaker 2 16:34

As many horsepower as you can. I use three inch two shot all year steel as many horsepower as you can.

Speaker 4 16:37

I use 3 inch 2 shot all year. Steel and I mean it does the job On like Any steel shot is going to kill a duck anywhere, no matter what Like, if you hit your shot you're going to kill a duck On geese. Geese are big, geese are tough. If you're stretching any shots out Above that certain yardage and you aren't getting a perfect shot which doesn't happen all the time it just doesn't.

Speaker 1 16:58

No one does and you aren't getting a perfect shot, which doesn't happen all the time. It just doesn't. No one does. So you don't think the shot Leather steels regardless. It's the shot that you take and the distance.

Speaker 4 17:06

Steel will hit harder Steel will mushroom Steel is heavier or yeah Lead.

Speaker 1 17:11

Lead.

Speaker 4 17:11

Lead is Lead will hit harder, lead is heavier, but but I don't know. It's another one of them touchy subjects.

Speaker 1 17:21

Well, that's why we're talking about it, boys. It's a controversial night tonight.

Speaker 2 17:24

Yeah, like I understand. I do understand why they put that law in place, but at the same time, it is very silly that you're hunting a cornfield and you have to shoot steel.

Speaker 1 17:35

Overall, you're for polluting your waterways. Well, what I'm saying is when they make a blanket rule they kind of made themselves look silly on that.

Speaker 4 17:48

I'm going to stay in my original opinion that I would shoot lead over a field and I'll shoot steel on water to keep everything out. Because a little bit of pollution yeah, we aren't doing much, but everyone says that. And when a little bit of pollution gets said by 10 people, yes, that's a lot of pollution I agree, so anything you're doing is going to help going the other way, because everything we do now pollutes everything. So anything you can do to cause a negative effect on that, little by little it'll help.

Speaker 4 18:14

But over a field over a field when, like around around here specifically and a lot of places too, if you're shooting mainly goose hunting, most time guys are over fields and that's when you, that's when I would personally want that lead shot, for geese especially, and I'd say the majority of goose hunting is done over fields.

Speaker 2 18:35

For sure, Okay, but here's the. I'm going to be that guy.

Speaker 3 18:39

The devil's advocate advocate.

Speaker 2 18:40

What if you're hunting a flooded field, because there's a lot of guys in the states to do that?

Speaker 4 18:45

well, there's a whole another subject I never hunted one honestly. I had a one that had a puddle that a duck like brought before you logan, so answer it um accordingly as long it just depends. If that, well, that's the thing. Where's that draining to it's draining?

Speaker 1 19:03

into a main river that the good people from Corn State, nebraska whatever that town's called there Somewhere in Nebraska that's where they're getting the drinking water. Now what, logan? Keep in mind your answer does either make you look like a dick or it doesn't.

Speaker 4 19:26

Dalton already said shoot lead in the water.

Speaker 1 19:28

So I'm good yeah, he already looks bad I don't know.

Speaker 4 19:31

If your tile drain line is going directly into the drinking water, then I'd probably say no, I mean if it's just a pretty secluded field in the middle of nowhere what's a tile drain line logan, for those people that don't know tile drain line is a set. You basically dig a trench in the ground, set whatever size tube fits and has holes drilled in it or perforated perforated. Thank you that's fancy so basically, it lets the water drain through the ground into the pipes and they all connect together to go to one point.

Speaker 1 20:01

In a farmer's field.

Speaker 4 20:02

In a farmer's field, so it lets the ground dry quicker and more efficiently.

Speaker 2 20:05

But you really think that there could even be a trace of lead by the? Time it passes through the ground.

Speaker 3 20:10

Yes.

Speaker 4 20:11

Do you really believe that I really do? Actually I do.

Speaker 2 20:14

Okay.

Speaker 4 20:15

I don't Get him Dalton no.

Speaker 2 20:20

Where? Okay, I don't Get him, don't, no, no, where's that? Mute him. So why isn't there fertilizers going into?

Speaker 1 20:24

Well, that's it is. We're not getting into the fertilizer debate.

Speaker 2 20:28

No, no, no, no. If that was the case, you wouldn't be allowed to spray right.

Speaker 1 20:33

No, we're not getting into that. That's not hunting, I mean it is.

Speaker 2 20:45

We're not getting because you know I'm right. No, that's why you don't want to get into it. No, that's not why. So if I spread spread manure on a tile drain field, would there be manure coming?

Speaker 1 20:50

at the other end, don't?

Speaker 2 20:50

we're not that's a whole different subject all right, this isn't a problem let the listeners decide what they think all right, we're not getting into that.

Speaker 1 21:01

So.

Speaker 4 21:01

Logan, I'm sticking with, I'm sticking lead over field.

Speaker 1 21:05

Lead over no water.

Speaker 4 21:08

Lead over no water.

Speaker 1 21:09

So if it's a flooded field, I'll stick with that. No lead yeah, I'd agree with that All right Dalton.

Speaker 4 21:13

Dalton wants to kill.

Speaker 2 21:15

I want lead baby.

Speaker 4 21:16

I want lead Because his three BBs that hit the bird need to count Exactly.

Speaker 1 21:22

Alright. Well, I guess your mic's getting muted.

Speaker 2 21:27

Have a good night.

Speaker 1 21:29

Boys, that was good. That was a really good podcast. I like that. We were just having a discussion on the controversy things, those listeners listening in. You guys can let us know what some of your controversy things are and maybe you agree with us or don't agree. Let us know. Until then, we'll talk to you next time on Hunt, an Opening Podcast. Boys, thanks for coming in.