Hunts On Outfitting Podcast
Stories! As hunters and outdoors people that seems to be a common thing we all have lots of. Join your amateur guide and host on this channel Ken as he gets tales from guys and gals. Chasing that trophy buck for years to an entertaining morning on the duck pond, comedian ones, to interesting that's what you are going to hear. Also along with some general hunting discussions from time to time but making sure to leave political talks out of it. Don't take this too serious as we sure don't! If you enjoy this at all or find it fun to listen to, we really appreciate if you would subscribe and leave a review. Thanks for. checking us out! We are also on fb as Hunts on outfitting, and instagram. We are on YouTube as Hunts on outfitting podcast.
Hunts On Outfitting Podcast
Wild Adventures with Coyotes and Dogs
Get ready to be immersed in the world of coyote hunting with hounds, as we host the passionate and experienced John Farringer. Growing up in the hound culture of eastern North Carolina, John shares firsthand stories about the traditions, camaraderie, and challenges of hunting, from rabbit beagles to deer hounds. Tune in to learn about the delicate balance between predator management and respect for wildlife, and how working dogs play a pivotal role in maintaining this harmony.
Discover the intricate dynamics of using hounds for coyote management, as we discuss with John the ethical considerations and benefits of this practice. Explore the thoughtfully controlled environments created by pen owners to ensure the well-being of coyotes, and the importance of educating animal rights groups about these practices. From understanding the roles of cold-nose jump dogs and pack dogs to the clever strategies employed by coyotes, this episode provides a rich exploration into the intelligence and adaptability of both hunters and their canine companions.
In our engaging conversation, we also touch on the responsibilities associated with managing hunting dogs and ensuring respect for private properties. John shares captivating anecdotes about his exceptional dog, Fancy, whose keen focus on coyotes is unmatched. We also highlight the importance of passing down these hunting traditions to the younger generation, fostering respect for diverse outdoor perspectives. Join us as we celebrate the thrill of coyote hunting season and look forward to future stories and insights from the field.
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this is hunts on outfitting podcast. I'm your host and rookie guide, ken meyer. I love everything hunting the outdoors and all things associated with it, from stories to howos. You'll find it here. Welcome to the podcast.
Speaker 1:Okay, thanks for everyone tuning in to this week's episode of Huntsman Outfitting Podcast. We appreciate it greatly. This podcast is growing. It's thanks to you. I find the best way for that to grow and how it's been growing is word of mouth. So if you enjoy this podcast in any way, shape or form, please just share us out. That's it. That's all.
Speaker 1:So this week on the podcast we've got John Farringer talking about coyote hunting. Now, most of us as hunters no doorsmen and women, you know, when the off season comes, deer season's over or something we're hunting coyotes. We're doing our part for predator management and helping protect the deer herds and small game animals that we enjoy to hunt ourselves. Coyotes are a predator that really need to be managed. So a lot of us will find ourselves, you know, going out and trying to get a few dogs if we can. But have you ever tried doing it with hounds? Well, if you have, you're going to enjoy this. If you have, you're going to enjoy this. If you haven't. You're going to enjoy this episode, too and probably learn a lot. We cover a vast array of topics involving coyote hunting with hounds. John's knowledgeable on this and has been doing it for a while. He has a lot of great insights on it and tells about the training, choosing the dogs that he likes to use, the types of guns and ammo used all that, so I think you're really going to enjoy it.
Speaker 1:In this episode, too, we're going to be talking about working dogs, and if you guys are looking for something to help with your working dog or just your regular dog at home, I got to tell you Inuksuk has specially designed kibbles that meet the intense requirements of today's working dogs. It's what I feed, it's what I recommend, and, with over 800 resellers across Canada and the US, you go on their website, find a map and they can help sell it to you right to your door. Simple as that. You won't find them at Walmart or any other big box stores, because they keep the prices low. Because of that, there's no markup like other brands might do when they're selling to the big box stores. So just something to keep in mind. I hope you enjoy the podcast. So you're living in Pennsylvania, originally from? Is it North or South Carolina North?
Speaker 2:Carolina Born and raised or South Carolina, north Carolina Born and raised grew up in eastern North Carolina and I currently, you know, have been living in Pennsylvania for about 19 years now.
Speaker 1:Okay, yeah, so definitely a resident.
Speaker 2:Yes, yep.
Speaker 1:Yeah. So, john, you know. Thanks so much for reaching out to me and I'm excited to have you on and learn. I mean, I love any working dog, especially hounds, and I'm excited to learn about, you know, running coyotes with hounds. But before we get into that, you know what was your start in hunting? Because when we were talking last night you were saying that you really grew up in the hound culture. Yeah, yeah, when we were talking last night you were saying that you really grew up in the hale culture.
Speaker 2:Yeah, yeah. So you know, growing up in eastern North Carolina it was pretty much just a way of life. You know we grew up, started out with rabbit, beagles and stuff and then from there, you know, as I got older, I moved into running deer with hounds A lot of people, you know, don't agree with them and stuff but in, you know, eastern North Carolina it's just a way of life and it's just the way they did things down there. It's a lot of fun. The sportsman's part of it, you know, I see both sides. It's a lot of fun. The sportsman's part of it. I see both sides. I see your tree stand, hunters and stuff. I think there's room for all of us to share the wood and the great outdoors. Respect goes a long ways. If you have respect for each other and value each other's thoughts on hunting and stuff, you know, I think we can all all share the like.
Speaker 1:I said, I'll share the great outdoors and it'll be a great time for everybody well, yeah, exactly, I find that, even though you know some are sitting in a tree, some are running with hounds or whatever, um, we're all hunters, so we're all on the you know should be all on the same team, really absolutely yes, um, and you know, I, honestly, even growing up, you know, as far back as I can remember, um, never had any, any encounters.
Speaker 2:Uh, the group of guys and stuff and girls that my family hunted with and everything throughout the county. There was never any issues. We respected each other. We knew the neighbor. If he was hunting a buck and he was going to be in a stand, you know we stayed away from them, them blocks of wood, um, and as far we turned into respect, um, you know he, he would let us know, hey, uh, he must've moved out, or hey, he harvested, or um, the communication was great, um, and the level of respect was was great, and the level of respect was great, and so it worked out really well.
Speaker 1:Yeah, I mean, that's what it's all about as sportsmen. So, with growing up all around hands, did you guys run coyote hands when you were younger?
Speaker 2:So growing up we had fox and coyote pens, trout pens and we would use those pens to train puppies and stuff. Um, we never really got into the field trawling um, my family and you know the group that we hunted good um, nothing wrong with it at all. I mean absolutely nothing. I mean it's a great sport, I mean if you want to sit on your tailgate and listen to hounds run all night long. I've been to them and it's great. I mean sometimes you get two or three hundred hounds on a trial and it just sounds like you're knocking trees over. I mean it's, it's a great feeling, you know. Um, but we just never really got into that. We had all outside running dogs and our hounds would run deer and we would start puppies on fox and coyote because they kind of have the same scent as a deer.
Speaker 2:Now, as far as the coyote hunting coming about, so when I moved up to PA back in 2004, I was kind of lost. I didn't know, you know, I mean I knew how to hunt out of a tree. You know deer stand. I mean I knew how to hunt out of a tree stand or a shanty or, you know, sit on the edge of a cornfield or you know, walk the woods and the streams and you know up to the mountain wall and stuff and I knew how to do that. But deep down in my heart you know where I wanted to be.
Speaker 2:As far as you know hunting with hounds, you know you can't do that in Pennsylvania you can't run deer or bear or anything like that in Pennsylvania, which is fun. I respect the law.
Speaker 2:And one day I was at the gas station and I'd seen a guy sitting there. He had a dog box in the back of his truck and it was a fairly large dog box and I knew, man, unless he had like eight coon hounds, you know, I'm wondering what he's running. You know, yeah, absolutely. And so I asked, I said you know. I said hey, buddy, I don't want to impede on your business or anything. I said, but ask what you're running here. You know what you're hunting? He says coyotes. We're running using July walkers, running walkers and long-legged walkers. We hunt coyotes. And I said to him, I said well, a little bit of a short, brief background, and he invited me right along. I could have went that day with him, you know, and I didn't, but I got into it and it was just like being back home again and it was a great feeling For me. I don't know what it is. The sound of a hound is like no other and I really don't know any other way to explain it without somebody experiencing it.
Speaker 1:Yeah, it is. For those of us who are fortunate enough to experience it is hard to put into words and yeah, that's why, like I run Coonhounds a lot and my Beagles too, and I take out as many new people as I can, just so they experience it. And I don't expect everyone to get their own dog and stuff, but at least they understand it and they get to experience that. And that's just someone else you know on our side. For if that issue ever comes up, say in a negative way, then they say, well, actually I went along and had a great time and this is actually what it's like and stuff.
Speaker 2:Oh, absolutely. I mean I've even invited, you know, folks to my house and to show them. You know the work that we do. You know we don't just, you know, put these hounds in a pen and take them out and run them and put them back in the pen. You know they're part of the family. I mean my kids play with them. And you know my wife, you know God bless her heart. I got a really strong, strong, strong wife. I mean with my employment, my job that I do.
Speaker 2:If it wasn't for her I would not be able to do and have hounds. I mean I could hunt with the folks but I wouldn't be able to have my own hound. There's a lot of work that we put into them, spending time with them and training them. I don't ever look at the price of what I paid for a hound because you know you meet folks and say, oh, I got the best hounds in the county or the state and you know I have good hounds.
Speaker 2:I think every day a hound has its day. I can take my best hound I got and he'll make a liar out of me, or she'll make a liar out of me and I can take a, you know, a fresh young pup that I think that is almost there but not quite there, and she'll just shot. I mean she'll, I mean she'll, she'll cold trail, she'll jump that coyote and'll run that coyote until she can't run no more. And you know every hound has its day. But back to you know they're a part of the family. I mean they're not abused, they're not. You know they don't get fed, you know they're very well taken care of. And then vet bills and shots and just making sure they're healthy.
Speaker 2:There's a lot of work that's involved in it. You have to find somewhere deep down in your heart and be to be a true hound. Um, now, on the flip side of that, uh, it's very addictive, I mean for me. For me it is. You know, when I hear that hound, when I hear that hound, you know chopping a little bit, chop a little bit, cold, trailing, and when he starts striking and you know all you hear is a bellow and a, you know just hammering. You know he's up and jumping or running. You know that hair on the back of my neck stands up. And just about everybody that I've taken out to show them that experience, you know they feel the same way, and not every one of them, like you said, you know, has hounds, but they buy tractors, they buy a dog box so they can help catch up dogs. You know they're fully involved, you know.
Speaker 2:And for whatever reason they be, they might not be in a situation where they can have hounds. You know they take a little bit of property. They're not going to have to live in the city.
Speaker 1:Yeah, well, they're not like a golden retriever or something you know the hounds are. They're unique and they can be very intense dogs, I guess you could say at times.
Speaker 2:Yes, yes, very intense, you know, and there's all kinds. There's all kinds. You, you might go through, you know you and I'm not saying that they're bad hounds but you might go through five, six, ten, fifteen hounds until you find that one that fits you. Um, you work hand in hand. You know when I, when I back up to a, a clear cut or a lay down or along the edge of the road, I opened that box up, all I got to do is walk in the direction I want them to go and they go. They know where they they you know, they know where I want them to go and and you just got to find, you got to find them pounds that your personalities match. I mean, it's really weird to think about it, but when you actually do it it all comes to life.
Speaker 1:Yeah, exactly, I couldn't agree more. I just want to back up a bit to something you were talking about just people listening so they understand. So you're saying about the coyote and the fox pens and I know a little bit about them. I know that there's a lot of controversy behind them, but what I do know about them and then I'll say and you can correct me if I'm wrong is that most of them are a pretty good size. I don't know the exact acres, but a lot and I've been told and seen videos and stuff that I mean these coyotes and foxes and these pens. Some people think it's cruel, but they know the game. The hounds are going to come, they're going to run, but they're fed and all that. They're actually looked after and probably have a better life than a coyote in the wild. But I'll let you tell.
Speaker 2:Yes, absolutely, and I will stand firm on this. Those fox and coyote live a long, healthy, exciting, comfortable life. You know. They're fed, they have water. Now here's the thing that maybe some people, or a lot of people, don't know. Also, in these pens, you know, there are usually pens averaged from 50 acres and up. I don't think I've ever heard or seen or been to a pen that was under 50 acres. And when I say 50 acres, you might have one, maybe two coyotes in 50 acres. Now these pen owners, you know they build safe havens for these coyotes and foxes, so they have barrels and stuff that they go into when they're done running and they've had enough. They don't just lay over and let the coyote. You know the hound catch the coyote and there's no fighting. You know the coyote knows where it's home is, where it sleeps, and it goes. It'll hole up and the dogs can't get to it and there's no harm done.
Speaker 1:Yeah, and these coyotes, you know, they're not fighting with one another all the time, they're not trying to scrimp and get food and be starving and they're not, you know, worried about getting different kinds of diseases and all that. And yeah, no cause. We have a province here in Canada, ontario, and there's still some pens there and there's been a lot of, you know, of course, animal rights groups and all that trying to shut them down. But, like you know, I'm glad we're talking about this. They don't realize that I mean these things. They do. They have a much better life than a wild coyote. They're safe there and everything's kind of controlled enough for them in a comfortable way, almost like a beef cow, I guess you could say.
Speaker 2:Yeah, yeah, you know. There's no need for them to fight over food when each one of them have an average of five or ten pounds of food put out for them every other day yeah, talked about that just so people know, because at first they're like, oh, that's cruel, but no, and, like you said, they have a place that they can.
Speaker 1:They can get away and they know that, they know the game. And, yeah, people aren't looking to get their dogs tore up there and all that. They're just, it's just a trial. And the coyotes, uh, they know how it goes too.
Speaker 2:They're smart and they catch on quick you know fox hunting, you know, uh, it goes mid-dates way back. You know. You know on horse, you know, uh, hammers would be on horseback and they've run fox trials and um, you know that, um, you know fox will hold up quick and uh, you know there's no harm done to the fox and um, you know. Now, on the other side of it, uh, you know like we hunt on the outside of the fence, um, there is times where you know we do harvest the coyote. There's nothing left at the end of the line. You know a coyote is a predator and you know, if we want to preserve our turkeys and our rabbits and even deer, you know we have to not wipe them out, by no means. But we, you know we need to try to manage that the best. We can Be conservative.
Speaker 1:The way I feel about it around here and stuff is any coyote on the other side of the fence is a good coyote's a dead coyote.
Speaker 2:I value everyone's opinion, animal rights and stuff. I'm glad that we have those people because you know there is situations where you know, uh, animals are abused and stuff. And you know, if it wasn't for them, you know, uh, they wouldn't have any protection, they wouldn't have no voice.
Speaker 1:Yeah, no exactly. And you know, just depending on how, as long as the animal rights people are educated, I guess, is when I don't have a problem with them, as long as they know what they're talking about, which sometimes isn't too often.
Speaker 2:But yeah, they do. They are good for situations where there is a need for it, absolutely, absolutely. You know, and, like you said, if those folks are educated and understand the triangle and where the line stops and there's nothing to control these coyotes and predators, and you know they're taken out. You know, um, just wiping the rabbits and the turkeys and the pheasants, um, and deer, you know, I've seen coyotes, so I've had coyotes on trail cameras where they were dragging fawns and small doe and stuff. You know, back their dens, you know, and that's not a bad thing, you know. Know they have to eat too, Um, but if we don't help control that population and play and do our part, um, it's not going to be good, it's going to wipe all game out.
Speaker 1:Yeah, oh, absolutely they. They need to be managed. So I mean, I'm curious. So how do you uh, we'll start from the beginning how do you start a pop on coyotes? How do you use man's best friend to hunt another canine? Which is really unique in a way that I think, is that they're working for us against their own and you know a fellow canine animal group.
Speaker 2:Yes, yes, and the same family. Yeah, so you know, you get a pup and you, you know, usually, you know there's there's two different types of hounds. Um, and maybe not a lot of people know this, uh, but there's definitely distinctive, two different types of hounds, and it don't matter what breed of hounds, what you know, you can have july walkers, you can have running walkers, you can have tree and walkers plots, you know blackmouth curs. Um, you don't matter what kind of dog it is, don't matter what kind of breed it is, but each, each, you know you have a jump dog, cold nose jump dog, and you have a pack dog, um, and uh, depending on what you're looking for, uh, is what you, what you get now? Um, you know, I have, uh, one really cold jump dog, really cold nose jump dog. She will cold-nosed jump dog, she will search and search and search and she can pick scent up. She's slower, she's good, and then, as soon as she's jumped, I have two other, I have a July Walker and a Krogan Walker, krogan long-legged Walker, and as soon as she's jumped, they know a Krogan Walker, a Krogan long-legged Walker. And, uh, I, I, just as soon as she's jumped, they know, all I gotta do is open the box up. They'll hear her barking and they'll go. They'll bark right in, they'll go right into her and, uh, the chase is on.
Speaker 2:So, as a puppy, you gotta, you gotta know what you want to start with. You know, do you need pack dogs or do you need a jump dog? You know, if you're looking for a jump dog you need to make sure that the mom and the dad also have cold nose and they're jump dogs. You know it kind of keeps the line going and you get that puppy and you know you'll start that puppy on a drag. The first thing is, when I have a puppy, I work with obedience. I want them tone broke, I want them to follow commands. So, just basically, like your house dog that sleeps in bed with you, you want a good, obedient dog that'll listen. So that's what you start with. And then you start moving into some scent and some drags and make it fun as a dog gets a little older. You don't really want to start a real young, young puppy.
Speaker 2:Uh, you throw a puppy in a pack that's grumped and running and they're gonna run and what'll happen is you'll break their back end down. Uh, they're not built to run like that yet. Um, but you know you slowly introduce them. The best way I mean you can take them to a pen and do it, you can do that but ultimately the best way is to have an older jump dog and you just run those two together. You put that puppy with that older jump dog and let that older jump dog pretty much pass on what he or she can do to the puppy and she'll teach that puppy.
Speaker 2:Now you pack dogs. You know you want them to be, you want them to listen, you want them to be obedient. Same thing it's. Actually, in my opinion it's a little harder to train a pack dog than it is a jump dog. In my opinion it's a little harder to train a pack dog than it is a jump dog, because your pack dog, if it won't, you know if he won't go when the other dogs are barking, if he won't go to them, then you know it makes it hard.
Speaker 2:But you know you walk them in. You walk them in and you, if you treat them good, you know they hear the mother dog barking. And as soon as you see that tail wagging and stop wagging and looking in the direction, you know the the light bulb is kind of clicks one day and uh, and they'll. They might run up down the road a little bit, they might run around the truck, they might jump on you and try to get your sausage biscuit out of your coat pocket pocket, you know, but that's okay. That's okay because they're pack dogs, you know. Uh, you're working, you know jump dog is in there, you know and doing what is? You know what he or she's supposed to be doing? Um, so in all reality, you just got to know what you want, what you need, and then you work in that direction with your puppy and one day, like I said, one day, eventually the light bulb will click on and they'll just take right on to it.
Speaker 1:Yeah, so I mean it's similar to training. Yeah, I guess that's how most hounds are trained. That's how I've trained my beagles and my coon hounds. It's just the older, more experienced one and the puppies tag along and then, like you said, you can see the light bulb click and they're like oh, this is what we're doing and I want to do it.
Speaker 2:I've seen some of the best bloodline, cold nose, I mean, they'll sniff a trail. That's, you know, a day old, you know, and I've seen some of the best, and I've seen some of the puppies come out of it. Um, they would rather, uh, sleep on the couch and that that would be them. You know, every, every, every hound, every dog has its own personality. Um, and the more if that dog don't want to hunt, that dog isn't gonna hunt, and then the more you work it, work and work it and you're not getting any progress at all, um, then it's time to find that that puppy, a home that you know, with kids, and then you know it's going to sleep inside yeah, yeah, I mean I find that that's what they say with any hounds or working dog hunting dog, I guess is that you can't train them to hunt.
Speaker 1:You can show them what they to do, but it's either in them or it's not. If they want to, they'll learn.
Speaker 2:If they don't want to, it just yeah, it won't happen.
Speaker 2:Well, absolutely, I agree 100%. You know now we're getting into the coyote hunt. You know we obviously. When it snows, it's the best you know here in northwestern Pennsylvania. If it snows up until 2 am and then quits, that is the best you know it covers all the old tracks up and then the coyotes are out moving, usually pretty active between 2 o'clock and daylight, and usually pretty active between 2 o'clock and daylight, and we'll run mountain roads and country roads and we'll cut tracks. And what I mean by cutting tracks is we'll find fresh tracks and we'll put the jump dog on that track and sometimes it takes five minutes and they're up and running, or sometimes it takes three hours and they're up and running.
Speaker 2:Now, if we don't have any snow to be able to cut tracks, what we'll do is sometimes we'll call. So we'll take a call, like folks use at nighttime with thermals and stuff, or during the daytime, and we'll call, we'll howl, and then sometimes they'll howl back and then we'll know they're in that block A lot of times. That don't always work. You get a smart coyote. A coyote is just like a hound, I mean in a sense of sense and smartness. After you run that coyote it remembers and it starts getting smarter. And it starts getting smarter than a, starts getting smarter than the dog.
Speaker 1:Oh, they're crazy smart.
Speaker 2:Sometimes they don't always work. So, you know, we'll go where we think there might be a coyote and we'll either walk the dogs in or we'll turn the dogs loose and we'll let them the jump dogs and we'll let them do their thing. They'll go in and they'll work it and they'll let them do their thing. Um, they'll go in and they'll work it and they'll they'll sniff it out and, uh, you know, if there ain't nothing in that block of wood, sometimes they come back, uh, and then you know, if there is.
Speaker 2:If they get a little bit of scent, they keep working. You know conditions have to be almost perfect to precast for coyote hunting. You know if it's raining or anything like that later in the day it ain't real good to precast. You know, usually if we have no snow and we know we're going to precast, you know we'll start precasting dogs four o'clock in the morning okay, yeah, and for those that don't know what is precasting precasting is where you have no location of a coyote or whatever game you're hunting.
Speaker 2:Yeah, you don't know, there might be one in there in the woods or it might not be one in the woods. So free casting is putting the dogs out in the woods, getting them on the ground and letting them work through the woods and picking up the scents and pretty much bumping up the coyote and stuff like that. The dogs working the dog is they're called working hounds, you know, and that's kind of where that comes from free cats. They're in there working and getting that coyote up.
Speaker 1:Yeah, that was a great explanation of it. Yeah, like you said, whether you're working coyotes or coons or bear, that's yeah, that's free casting. So with I've seen some youtube videos and stuff of it. So I mean, if you guys, when you guys are hunting the coyotes and the dogs are running them, is it sometimes like when you're hunting a rabbit, where you hear them coming, you're guesstimating where the coyote's going to come out at and you shoot on the run? Do they bay it up? I mean, how does that normally go that that comes with.
Speaker 2:Uh well, okay, let's start with baying coyotes. Okay, you know, baying a coyote is kind of the same as creating a raccoon or a bear or a cat, and what I mean by cat is bobcat or mountain lion. So when a dog bays a coyote, that means the coyote has had enough and the dogs will just pretty much surround it and I don't want to say hold it there physically. They don't physically hold it there, but they will keep it from running anymore, which gives us a chance to get in and ethically take that coyote out.
Speaker 1:Yeah, so like I've seen some videos where the coyotes they're running it like how a beagles would run a rabbit, and then you're just kind of guessing where it's going to come out at and then you kind of shoot it on the run. Does that happen much?
Speaker 2:Oh, yes, yeah, Okay, yep, it takes I'm sorry, uh, it takes a very, very special uh hound to bait coyote. Um, it has to have grit and it has to. It has to that hound has to have a bigger heart than you could ever think of. Yeah, um, now, a lot of times that coyote is anywhere from 100 yards to 300 to 300 yards in front of, uh, you know, your hound. Okay, that's quite a stretch. So we usually don't, we, we usually hunt the same and the coyotes usually come out and take the same trails every time. They're not even the same coyote, but they'll run those same trails every time.
Speaker 1:So like a rabbit.
Speaker 2:Another thing a coyote will do is it'll get behind deer to try to throw the dogs off, so it'll get the deer running. The coyote will get behind the deer and then it'll cut off from the deer and it'll try to get the deer to try to throw the dogs off.
Speaker 1:That's smart, that's very smart yeah.
Speaker 2:Yes, yes, they are, and the more you run them, the smarter they get.
Speaker 1:Yeah, so then when they're running, so that's when you guys are trying to get ready for a shot. So are you guys using? What are you guys typically shooting?
Speaker 2:Are you guys using like buckshot? Okay, so here in Pennsylvania you're allowed to use up to number four buckshot. Okay, so we'll use up to number four buckshot. Okay, um, so we'll use up to number four buckshot. I mean, you can use, uh t shot, you can use bb shot, um, but most of the guys, uh, we took a liking to them, uh, carlson, uh, coyote chokes and uh, we'll use some, you know, heavy bb or number four buckshot, um, and then, uh, for open fields, uh, we usually have, uh, uh, we'll use ar-15s or 223s or you know bolt actions or you know something that that sense some of the, some of the older guys, uh, you know they, they, they mess with us younger, little bit younger generation.
Speaker 2:You know they have nothing but shotgun, they're shotgunners and that's all they believe in. And you know what? I can't say nothing. I mean, there's been times where if I would have had a shotgun I would have got that coyote. But you know, growing up I was kind of accustomed to that already growing up. In eastern North Carolina you're allowed to use buckshot down there for deer hunting and you can use whatever buckshot you want. You know number one, number two, double lock, triple lock. You know it don't matter, but here in Pennsylvania you're not allowed to use buckshot to hunt deer with. Here in Pennsylvania you're not allowed to use buckshot to hunt deer with. So they only allow you to go up to number four size buckshot for coyote hunting, which is more than enough to knock down a coyote.
Speaker 1:Yeah, and then. So that's how the coyote. Okay, so that's interesting, that's how the hunt goes. I was wondering that, if it was, it's almost similar to. Well, I've heard to a rabbit hunt. I've heard one guy describe it as he said think to a rabbit hunt. I've heard one guy describe it as think of your worst day rabbit hunting. The rabbits are just running and firing going.
Speaker 2:That's typically a coyote hunt Compared to a rabbit hunt, you know how usually your dogs will swing that rabbit and bring it back around to you. The difference is coyote will will straight line, um, and that's kind of how you know. We use, uh, varmint um trackers. Uh, we have, you know, varmint trackers and handhelds and um, usually you know you can watch on there and you can tell what they're on. You know, sometimes when we get on the cat, when that cat trees, you know we don't have tree and walkers so our dogs don't stay on the tree so that cat will tree and the dogs will work a circle and that cat will come back down and they'll pick it back up and they'll run it some more and then that cat will tree and you can see on your handheld, on the Garmin. You know what it's doing, what your dog is doing, how they're acting, and you'll know Now if you see on there them dogs are straight lining and they're just a booking in a straight line.
Speaker 1:You've got a coyote up here you're rolling, Okay, yeah. Yeah, I know I've got the Gar garment as well, and boy, I wouldn't let my dogs go without it.
Speaker 2:No, I wouldn't either. You know, as far as safety for the dogs and being able to control the dogs, yes, you know, we still have. I would say here in northwestern Pennsylvania we have 98% of people that say go, you know you're not allowed to deer hunt, you're not allowed to bear, know you're not allowed to deer hunt, you ain't allowed to bear hunt, you ain't allowed to do nothing. But if you want to run your dogs on my property and shoot coyotes, and then you know we got that other percent that are farmers and they say I don't want the coyote shot, I want them to kill the deer because the deer are eating all my crops. Yeah, but it makes it nice. So you know, cause, when I back, when we were talking about a puppy, and how does it start with a puppy, Well, you know, you tone, you, you tone, train that puppy, you horn, train that puppy. So when that dog, when that puppy becomes a dog and a hound, uh, that's that's running and working for you. Now, if he's headed towards property, that property that you know that we don't know how to be on, you know you can push a button on that handheld and it'll beep, that collar will beep, and he or she the hound knows. All right, I'm stopping, I'm turning around and I'm going right back on my tracks and my handler will be right there waiting on me.
Speaker 2:Things have calmed down a lot around here since folks know that we can control our dogs. We can control a lot of times. We can control where they go and where they don't. I don't know about anybody else's, but my hounds can't read posted signs. I don't know about anybody else's, but my homes can't read postage signs and there's times that they might get in a little block or they might get on a block or a piece of property that they shouldn't be on and we can't get them off. They're just that determined they want to do such a good job and they're that determined they're going to get that.
Speaker 2:They're hunting, they're doing what they're supposed to do such a good job and they're that determined they're going to get that. They're hunting, they're doing what they're supposed to do. And what will happen is we'll go to that homeowner. We'll go and I'll knock on the door and tell them who I am. Hey, I'm John Ferringer. I'm from this area here. We were running three miles from here and this coyote just straight lined and the dogs are chasing and they're in the back of the woods here.
Speaker 2:Usually we won't shoot the coyote, we'll just go in and can we please just get our dogs? A lot of times you'll find they'll tell you no, shoot that thing. I got chickens, they've been killing my chickens or something like that. But then you got people say, okay, that's fine, know, don't shoot that coyote, but you're more than welcome. You know, walk down to the backyard, into the woods and get your dogs. And you know, we understand, and you know. And then you got about one or two percent that are just irate. No matter what you do, you can make them happy and, uh, you know, you end up got a call, you know the wildlife officer, and they come out and they make the homeowner, you know, or the landowner. They make them. Let us go in and get her house because by law you know they have to. Let us get them, you know yeah.
Speaker 1:Yeah, john, you were saying something earlier about the Krogan Walker and we talked about that a bit last night. Could you kind of tell about that dog that you have there, because I know it's kind of unique yes, uh.
Speaker 2:So, um, the crogan bloodline, uh, walker, um, a fella named bill crogan from out west, um, he started that bloodline and they were bred especially for running just coyote. And in the beginning I was like, yeah, come on now. I've seen every dog shine and I've seen every dog have bad days and there's times they jump stuff and run it when they're not supposed to be. But I will say that Mr Bill Krogan unfortunately he's not with us anymore, he's passed but he is one fine houndstooth. He knew what he was doing, he developed me, he made that breed of dog. And my fancy girl, you know she's K's croaking and she will not chase nothing but a coyote. Um, you can put, you can put 10 bobcat right in front of her, you can put 10 cats in front of her, you can put a whole herd of deer, but you, she will not chase nothing but a coyote. And that's how. Another reason uh, you know, if we somebody's jumping around and they say, no, we don't know if it's a cat or we don't know if it's a coyote, we're not sure, and it's acting like this, but we don't know. No, one's seen it yet They'll get on the radio and tell me hey, put Fancy in. We need to know if this is a coyote or not and I'll put her in If she comes back to me. It ain't a coyote If she goes in and she starts hammering. Yeah, if she goes in and starts hammering them and starts rolling them, it's a coyote.
Speaker 2:And in the beginning I never really talked much about it. When I first got her I never really. You know, I wasn't a believer. I'm going to be honest with you. I was not a believer because I've seen some of the best, most expensive dogs. You know that dog will not, that dog will not chase a deer and I've seen that dog chase a deer. So I didn't. I didn't talk much about it when I first got her. But about six months in with Fancy, she made me a believer. She will not chase nothing. She will not hunt or run, chase nothing but a coyote. I'll tell you, mr Bill Krogan buddy, he knew what he was doing, he was a true houndstooth and I'm just very fortunate to have her. Wow.
Speaker 1:Yeah, it's really cool hearing about a unique breed or bloodline within you know the hound world.
Speaker 2:The July walkers. You know they're just a running walker, they're like your tree and walkers, but they don't really stick to a tree and they're a little faster. You know they're a little more slinky and a little more faster. Um, and uh, you know just, uh, just a part of a part of a breed that that somebody came up with. And uh, you know, just like, uh, I mean, like I said before, when you're going back to the puppies, you know, just like I mean, like I said before, when you're going back to the puppies, you know you take your best male and your best female and you just hope they throw some good puppies and carry them straight. And but those, I will say, you know, my fancy girl. She is, she is the dog, she is my pride, they're all my pride, but she shines, she shines and.
Speaker 2:I'm not saying one day that she might not chase a cat or, you know, get on something she ain't supposed to, because every they're just like humans. You know we have good days and bad days.
Speaker 1:Sure, yeah, lee yeah, joe, and I can't thank you enough for coming on the podcast here and giving us an inside look at this world of coyote hounds and, you know, I think probably some people have learned some things today and just get a little more of an understanding about what they might see or hear about.
Speaker 2:Yeah, yeah, definitely. I really appreciate you having me on here. I certainly don't know everything about the hunting world and I learn every day. You know something different. You know that's the great thing about being a houndsman, you know. You got that opportunity to to see different things and see how your dogs react and your hounds how they, how they do in different situations as far as weather and terrain and, um, you know, uh, it just, I guess it all just boils down to the love of a hound.
Speaker 1:You know, oh, absolutely, and I find that you know every the love of a hound, oh, absolutely, and I find that every time you take the hounds out, they'll teach you something new, whether you're paying attention or not.
Speaker 2:Oh, absolutely, absolutely. Yeah, I just, I really can't. I have no words how to explain. I really just don't know how to explain it without somebody just experiencing it. You know you like sushi or you don't like sushi. You ain't going to get used to eating it, you know. So you either like it and accept the responsibility of being a houndsman a hundred percent and, uh, you enjoy it as a way of life. Um, it's not just a hobby. You know that you can. You know, uh, pick up and you know just, you know, a couple months down the road, so I don't want to do this, no more. You need to make sure that you can accept the responsibility of being a houndsman and taking care of them hounds.
Speaker 2:Before you decide to get hounds, I always tell I've had a couple guys, I'm going to go on Facebook and I'm going to get me some hounds and I'm going to do this. I tell them hey, we got plenty of hounds. You know the group, the group I hunt with, is a fine group of guys and women. I mean they. They will let you ride with them every single time and not even ask for a penny for gas, and even share their lunch with you. You know what I mean.
Speaker 2:Fine group, I tell you, hey, come hunt with us.
Speaker 2:Make sure this is what you really want to do before you go getting hounds, because that's a whole different responsibility.
Speaker 2:I would suggest going by you a nice auto shotgun and get you a good choke and get a pattern with a good buckshot or BB. I would suggest starting there and maybe get you a handheld or get you a handheld radio that we communicate on. Make sure this is what you really want, because when you to me as a houndsman, when I pick up a puppy or even a well-seasoned train, that's a whole different level of responsibility and you've got to make sure that it's not just something you're going to pick up, even a well-seasoned train. That's a whole different level of responsibility and you've got to make sure that it's not just something you're going to pick up and throw down in a couple months. It ain't fair to the hound, it ain't fair to us houndsmen to see that. So I will say if you want a good time and see what it's all about, you're more than welcome to come over here to northwestern Pennsylvania and we'll do the best we can to give you a good experience.
Speaker 1:That's great. Thanks, john. Yeah, I mean just echoing on what you're saying. There being a houndsman it's a lifestyle. I mean some deer hunters try to say it is too, and it is to an extent. But the hounds it's lifestyle in the fact that it's 365 days a year. It's not like you're going out and getting the dust off the old duck blind or you know, oiling up your tree stand to take it in the fall, right, it's not like that. You don't just put it away and I'll see you in a few months or, you know, six months or whatever it's. It's every day absolutely now.
Speaker 2:I'm gonna tell you. You know, if I drop and crack the stock on my you know my browning you know I'm gonna be upset. I'm not even shedding tears, I'm not gonna lie to you. But I tell you what? If I lose a hound? I'm going to be heartbroken. Yeah, you know I can replace that shotgun. That hound is like my kid. You know, each hound I have is not replaceable.
Speaker 1:Yeah, now it's something great that I hope a lot of hunters can get an experience. Like I said, I've brought a lot of people with me hound hunting and most all of them will probably never get their own just because of that lifestyle. But I'll tell you anytime I'm offering to bring them along. They're right there ready to go. So that's all you can ask that works for me yeah, absolutely, yep, absolutely.
Speaker 2:You know, and uh, I'm a firm believer of getting the younger generation in.
Speaker 2:You know, I couldn't imagine, you know, growing up I couldn't imagine a Saturday morning not sitting shotgun, you know, with my grandpa or, you know, just friends.
Speaker 2:I couldn't imagine a Saturday morning morning not, you know, putting a tailgate down and open that dog box up. I just um, you know, and I think, uh, it is a slowly. I think hunting in general is slowly declining, you know, because we're not, we're not getting that younger generation out. You know, take the time. You know, um. You know, um. You know, get that that little, that little fellow or that little girl out there and and uh, you know, you know, show them the ropes and teach them. Uh, you know, ethics and responsibility. You know, uh, gun responsibility and uh, just outdoor. You know, uh, in general, to be a good person. You know, um, there ain't very many hounds that I've never not trusted. You know, uh and uh, you know, I think that's a, it's a slowly dying breed. You know, we've got to get these younger folks out here. And um, you know, and it might not be, it might not be coyote hunting with hounds and it might not be raccoon hunting or bear hunting or deer hunting. You know what I mean. You know, just to get them out in the outdoors though, to have a voice, you know, to be able to share their opinion and find something that they can find peace.
Speaker 2:You know that's another thing that I'm a firm believer. You know it's not all about shooting a coyote. That's another thing that I'm a firm believer in. It's not all about shooting a coyote, it's not all about shooting a monster buck or a state record bear. That's what I've taught my little boy and girl. They love to hunt. I absolutely die hard.
Speaker 2:My boy is seven, my daughter is five, my wife is an avid white tail hunter, so I have a little bit of help there, thank god. You know, like I said, she's a trooper. Uh, you know, I don't care what it is, I don't. You know, they might, you know, get older and say you know that I really don't want to. I don't really want to white tail hunt. You know, I just, I just want to, maybe bear hunt. There's something about it, you know, and I'm going to do everything I can do to make sure that they have the tools and the knowledge maybe to be successful, to even you know to take that responsibility on and and achieve it. Um, I just you know the same with fishing, you know'm not a fisherman. I'll tell you right now I am not a sport fisherman. I'm not. I'm going to tell you what I go fishing to drink a beer, yeah.
Speaker 2:I like to catch. I don't like to fish, yeah, right, right, uh, you know, and that ain't very often, but uh, term of word jared to express I am not a fisherman, you know. Yeah, uh, which is crazy. You know, growing up in eastern north carolina, you know you got the rivers and the ocean and stuff and I enjoy saltwater fishing a little bit. I mean I can do it. Uh, it helps pass time to get deer or, you know, get the hunting season yeah, yeah, that's what it's a yeah, it's a bridge absolutely you know.
Speaker 2:But back to, you know, getting these youngsters out here, you know getting this younger generation and you know, uh, and some may do it until they're 18 or 15 or 16, or you know some may do it, just because you know dad likes to do it. So I'm gonna hang out with dad and mom and, um, you know, and that's okay, but you've, you've given them a tool, at least you know, to have that option if they wanted to pursue it.
Speaker 1:Um, it's uh, yep, any any kind of hunting is. You know someone goes out and does it's. It's someone else on our, on our side and on our team when it comes to, uh, you know, voting and and talking about common sense, sometimes too, to people that uh are against it but have no idea about it yeah, absolutely.
Speaker 2:You know, and you I think another big part of you know teaching the younger generation also, to teach them to have respect for the ones that don't have no interest in it. You know the ones that that don't uh, hunt or fish or you know, um, you know, have respect for them too. You know, respect their, their thoughts and their values, because it's worth something. Um, I don't know. I guess I try to be as humble as I can be and I think you know, if you do good, good will come to you, and you know that's just the way I was raised. I guess you know to be a good person and there's times where you can't be a good person, but you know, I guess you know I grew up and it might offend some people, but I apologize if it does. You know God, guns and family is the way I was raised. I grew up in a Southern Baptist church and there's a little bit about myself there.
Speaker 1:Yeah, no, that's great.
Speaker 2:If you do good, it's better for the whole outcome. You do good and accept responsibility and do what you got to do. You do get rewarded from that. It does come back around the back end, you know um I couldn't, I couldn't agree more with all that.
Speaker 1:Uh, john, you've been, you've been really great to talk to and uh, I hope to have you back on again because you're you're great to have a conversation with about all this and uh, it's been a lot of fun. So, uh, thanks for, uh, yeah, thanks so much for telling us about the coyote hunting and uh, I think, uh, yeah, hopefully definitely be hearing from you again later this winter yeah, yeah, absolutely.
Speaker 2:Um, I keep a journal every year. Um, every day I go out, you know we go out, you know, um, that night I get back and get everything done and hounds put up and taken care of and dinner and family time a little bit. I always write in the journal. If you're willing to have me, I would love to come back on and maybe give an update on how our season's going. Yeah, that'd be great.
Speaker 2:Any changes or anything that's happened. That would be great. I would love to share the story with as many that would like to listen.
Speaker 1:Well, I'll tell you we'd like to hear it. I know I sure would.
Speaker 2:Definitely can't wait. We're just getting started in our coyote season here in PA and it's turning out pretty good. Like I said, we've got six inches of snow tonight. It's supposed to cut off here pretty soon. About midnight, 1 o'clock, the coyote is going to be up and moving. We'll be cutting tracks in the morning and turning the dogs out, dropping the tailgate.
Speaker 1:Sounds like a good Saturday morning. Well, John, I wish you guys all the best this season. We'll be talking again to see how it went.