Hunts On Outfitting Podcast
Stories! As hunters and outdoors people that seems to be a common thing we all have lots of. Join your amateur guide and host on this channel Ken as he gets tales from guys and gals. Chasing that trophy buck for years to an entertaining morning on the duck pond, comedian ones, to interesting that's what you are going to hear. Also along with some general hunting discussions from time to time but making sure to leave political talks out of it. Don't take this too serious as we sure don't! If you enjoy this at all or find it fun to listen to, we really appreciate if you would subscribe and leave a review. Thanks for. checking us out! We are also on fb as Hunts on outfitting, and instagram. We are on YouTube as Hunts on outfitting podcast.
Hunts On Outfitting Podcast
Collaborative Hunting: Terriers, Lurchers, And Their Stories
Discover the world of versatile working terriers with passionate dogman Nick Fox, as he takes us on his journey from owning various hunting dogs to discovering the indomitable Jagdterrier. Based in northern Indiana, Nick shares his insights into the breed's unique history and characteristics, including their German origins and the wartime breeding programs that shaped them. You'll learn about their impressive hunting capabilities, from wild boar chasing to intricate earthwork. Nick's personal experiences and stories bring to life the relentless drive of these spirited dogs, making them not only fierce hunters but also affectionate companions.
Join our conversation as we explore the fascinating dynamics of terrier breeds, focusing on their earthworking techniques. From coat types to underground hunting strategies, we discuss how these factors influence their function and appearance. Nick shares thrilling tales of earthworking encounters, where quick thinking is often required to ensure the safety of these adventurous dogs. We also delve into the preparation and conditioning essential for keeping them fit and ready for any challenge. Whether you're a seasoned hunter or a curious newcomer, you'll gain valuable insights into starting puppies in this unique form of hunting.
We also highlight the vibrant community surrounding terrier hunting, including organizations like the American Hunt Terrier Association. These groups provide a platform for youth and newcomers to immerse themselves in a rewarding sport, fostering a love for working with terriers. With engaging stories about the collaboration between terriers and lurchers, Nick illustrates the unique synergy and balance required in training these intelligent breeds. Tune in to experience the thrills, challenges, and camaraderie of hunting with terriers, and find out how you can get involved in this exciting world.
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this is hunts and outfitting podcast. I'm your host and rookie guide, ken marr. I love everything hunting the outdoors and all things associated with it, from stories to howos. You'll find it here. Welcome to the podcast. Yes, thanks, a pile for listening. In this week we have an interesting one for you. That's all about a small dog breed with a big dog attitude and feels that no job is too big to get done, from taking on wild boar to digging underground after rodents. Passionate dogman Nick Fox is going to tell us all about it. If you're listening to this podcast on Apple or Spotify, it would be great if you could leave us a rating and review on there. We really appreciate it.
Speaker 1:Speaking about working dogs on here today, you got to make sure that they have the right food in them to keep going. I myself feed and recommend Nook Shook dog food. With it being the world's highest energy dog food. It will keep your best friend and hunter going all day long easily in demanding conditions. Check them out online, put in your address and a trusted reseller will come out near you. Also, check us out on Facebook Hunts On Outfitting to contact us and stay up to date with what's going on. All right, let's get to it All right. Yes, like I said, thanks for contacting me. I've been really curious about this breed and these dogs and wanting to talk to somebody that knows all about them. But before we get into that, nick, where are you from and how are you tonight?
Speaker 2:No, I'm not too bad Digging out of the snow. I'm located in northern Indiana. I've been working dogs since I was in high school. My first dog was a coon dog, so I was coon dogging for a while, switched into the beagles and then kind of fell out of the beagles, jumped into the coyote world, ran coyote hounds for about five years and then moved, kind of had life, life stuff come up and sold out for a minute, and then I decided I needed something, uh, something to in the house and something I could work. It was a little small, more portable, so I ended up with Yacht Terriers.
Speaker 2:My first one was Koma, who is three years old now. Got him from a gentleman in Kentucky, james Mills. He was kind of the godfather of the breed in the States and since then I kind of worked my way into doing all earth work with my terriers and I added a lurch to my pack this year. She's a sighthound cross and I use her a lot to draw stuff out of the ground. And that's about where I've been. And now I'm hooked in pretty deep in the terrier world and haven't looked back since.
Speaker 1:Yeah, no, sounds like if there's an animal to chase with dogs, you've owned it or been along to do it. At least I'd say.
Speaker 2:Yeah, that's the one thing. I've always had a dog and always liked working dogs. It's kind of like my, my little escape from the world, even though it's sometimes you get stressful when you've got a dog underground and we're out in the woods, you know, and you end up end up in some situations, but other than that, you know it's it's a good time. The terriers seem to have filled the void that I was looking for being small, portable and, yeah, they're gamey and gritty enough to handle anything. That's what I like about them and they don't back down off of nothing. And I like the super high prey drive in the dogs. It's kind of fun. And then the other thing that's important with the Yacht Terriers is they've got to have the off switch. So I raised four Yacht Terriers in the house and all mine sleep in bed with me at night and then we'd work the same day or the next day and they'd shut it off when we got home.
Speaker 1:Yeah, absolutely.
Speaker 2:I mean.
Speaker 1:I find that it's kind of an old-timers thing thinking that you can't have a good working dog and have them as a pet in the house, which I mean, as you know and I know myself, that's completely false. But with the Yawg Terrier, can you describe to us a little bit about the breed, like their size and they are. They're black and tan, so I'm guessing their origins they come from Germany. They seem to like their black and tans. Yeah, they come from uh germany.
Speaker 2:They seem to like their black and tans. Yeah, um, they came over in germany, came about during uh the war and and nazi germany. It was in their breeding program. They had a couple different species that they had in there and I believe it was like there's some horse that they had in this and then they had these dogs. So it's kind of hard getting them over here.
Speaker 2:So I mean a traditional Yacht Terrier. They range in size so it all depends where you're at. Personally, all my kennel stock is going to be your smaller end Terriers. So my smallest female she's 12 pounds and my biggest one, my biggest dog's 18 pounds. But they go up to as big as I've seen them up to 30, 35 pounds, the Yacht Terriers. And the one thing about the Yacht Terrier is it's pretty much a purpose bred dog. So whatever you're using it for is where your size obviously comes into play. You know, because we go to the west coast or to the south, a lot of them are using them for like hogs, big game bears and lions and stuff. But they're I mean obviously they're much larger than what I have.
Speaker 2:I'm kind of sticking to the smaller end of dogs because I enjoy doing the earth work, which would be. You know it's hard to get a yacht carrier that's sizable to work for earth. So you know you want to stay in the 12 to 15 pounds and or softer chest so you can span them. So spanning is where you take your hand behind the shoulder and you want to be able to touch your fingertips or wrap your fingertips around it. So the Yacht Terriers you know they fluctuate and a lot of the guys are running a bigger Yacht Terrier, which is fine. I mean there's not a lot of Yacht Terriers that excel in the Earth game over here because everything's fairly big.
Speaker 2:But they're pretty comparable to like, like a Patterdale or a Jack Russell. They're a little bit more, I'm going to say, hard or tougher, underground. You won't have as much of a bay dog like you do with the Jack Russell. You have more of a dog that'll go in they call it mixer where it'll go in and actually engage with the quarry underneath and hold it, because the jack russells are more of a bay dog, because you don't want to end the hunt there they were. The jack russells were popular when fox hunting was big in europe and it's still big over there, um to where you rip on them with the hounds and once the fox hold you would put that Jinder Jack Russell in or terrier in to flush the fox again and continue the race. So that's about the size that I go for. But, like I said, the Yacht Terriers go anywhere from 15 to 35 pounds. I've seen them as big as 40. But at 40 pounds there's not a critter on the air safe, I mean they can handle about anything on their own.
Speaker 1:Yeah, yeah, no, I believe it because, like I was saying earlier, my mom has a Jack Russell Terrier and she does not realize she's so small. She wants to play fetch all the time and if you threw a fence post for her, she would try to figure out a way to bring that fence post back to you. Like it's just insane how their tenacity, I guess you could say and how tough they are, and I just couldn't imagine you know, a bit bigger and it being, you know, the Og Terry with such a high prey drive. Yeah, I mean, I read about them a little bit. I mean basically coons, groundhogs, possums, wild boar, everything in between. And then I know some people have used them for blood tracking and then I think I saw on your Facebook they're even really good swimmers, are they not?
Speaker 2:Yeah, the one thing, the Yacht Terriers they're bred to be versatile. So, like I mean, there's dogs, there's some of the dogs in our uh, in the breed that are retrieving, you know, doing awesome retrieving, and they'll swim too, like they don't care. We do, uh, and a lot of the testing we try to do at our trials, you know, includes, you know, some tracking and stuff like that there's. There's dogs that sell in all of them. Um, the big thing with that is you got to keep that terrier interested and sometimes they have the attention span of a P, yeah, and they lose interest and if something flushes out in front of them, good luck, because they're going to run it down just because it moved in front of them sometimes.
Speaker 2:But, yeah, they have awesome tracking ability. They're super versatile and about any and anything you put them in. There's even guys using them in bite sports, which you know it's every, every breed has its have, its place. You know the the hog terrier can do it, but it's it's not going to excel as much as like your mountain walls or your german shepherds and stuff like that.
Speaker 1:Yeah, Right, Um, so you said it's the the bite sports. They put them in that.
Speaker 2:Yeah, there's. It's kind of. It's kind of like a bad thing that everyone's looking for that, that small pocket dog that they can use in the bite sports stuff. But in order to get some of the like required stuff, um, I'm not quite sure, I'm not really familiar with it, but I know there's guys using them. But I know some of the bite sports events like one of them is, they have to, like, take a dumbbell over top of a of a barrier some sort and okay, yeah, and it just it. You put a, you know even a 20 pound yacht and you have a five pound dumbbell. It ain't gonna jump over anything with it. It's gonna try, though they'll try anything yeah, oh yeah, it'll try um so that's, that's the one thing I like about it.
Speaker 2:you can't get them to. You seem to get them to quit. I had set out this year to kind of see if I could get a dog to just give up, like mentally, on stuff that it can do, and I've yet to find it Like they'll do whatever, they'll keep going. Um, that's the one thing I like about them. To drive in them, it's just absolutely nuts.
Speaker 1:Yeah, I think that's the terrier breed in general. They just don't have any back down or or quit in them.
Speaker 2:Yeah, that's. Have any back down or or quit in them? Yeah that's. That's 100 percent the what I see out of them too. Like I, uh, a couple years ago I was down in georgia at a hog bay um, and we ended up winning it, and my little female, I, broke her leg during the run, but we went up to take our pictures. We had to go back by the pen and as soon as we got close to the pen she was back to four legs, ready to go again, and she probably would have went, but I just couldn't. I wasn't going to make her do it. I got home and found out her leg was broke. Wow.
Speaker 1:That's a. That's incredible.
Speaker 2:So yeah they're. They're amazing little dogs. That's all I can say. Yeah absolutely.
Speaker 1:I mean. So is there two different kinds of coats on the? Is there a flat coated one in a curly coated one, or are they all kind of curly or?
Speaker 2:Yeah, so what they have is they have. So there's, there's three, three coat types Um, you'll have like a smooth coat, which would be your, you know your shorter fine hair. You have your broken coat, which is, um, it's long but it's not super long, and then they also have a long coat. That's, that's super long. So the, the broken coat is probably what you're going to see most of um, and then there is also the fine hair stuff, um, the over smooth coat, as we call them, and they're all pretty much about the same. As far as black and tan, you may have a different mask or like a different tan on the chest, but they're all going to be black and tan.
Speaker 1:Okay, all right. So you're talking a lot about earthworks earlier. So for those that don't know anything about it, I mean, what is it? How do you start a dog in it? And then what are the? You know? There's competitions, I'm assuming, and all that just kind of goes from there.
Speaker 2:So earthworking is. So what you'll do is it's the way we start puppies is you know we'll be hunting, and we'll just free cast dogs. Puppies is you know we'll send it, we'll be hunting with just free cat dogs. We'll usually walk in along um like ditch banks or ditch banks, brush piles, fence, roads, stuff like that, and the dog will actually um enter the ground with the quarry. So they'll go in um and they'll go to the quarry and of course we all have tracking equipment, stuff to track the dog underground. So when the dog goes in and engages, you kind of let the dog settle in and get used to. You know, just start working the quarry to keep that, prevent that quarry, whether it's going to keep running through the tunnel system or if that quarry is going to just stay there, and just let us get to them. And then, once the dog settles in, we'll mark it with our locators and then we'll just dig straight down to them. The rule of thumb when digging to a dog, you want to have your hole about as big around as you can dig in. So if you have, you know, say, a four foot, a four foot they're four foot down you'll open up a hole that's forefoot around and you'll get straight down. So you have plenty of room to work, to pull that dog out. Essentially, if something happens we end up getting into, you'll be. You can be anything from a fox so it'll be fox, skunks, groundhogs, raccoons, possum and out west, some of the guys actually dig badger with them. So that's what they are.
Speaker 2:When I got into the terrier breed I was like there's no way these dogs are going to ground. I'm not packing a shovel, I'm not doing all that. Well, it all changed Now. I keep dogs, we know we tone them down. I kind of put weight on them in the summer, in the winter, because we're doing a lot more above ground work like barns and abandoned houses and stuff like that or brush piles, so they've got to have a little bit more meat on them and weight on them to. You know, handle themselves. But in the summer we cut. I'd send the dogs down, we. But in the summer we cut, I'd send the dogs down. We'd do a lot of conditioning, I'd do a lot of flat metal, running with them and swimming just to get them toned up and skinny so we can get into the smaller holes in the ground and work. So yeah, that's the Earth game. The Earth game is a rush. You don't know what you're getting to most of the time. I mean until you get to it, because they all sound about the same when they're underneath brown and stuff.
Speaker 2:Um, as far as the yeah, it's the first time. The first time I did it, um, I was just walking my male dog coma. We were, we were just out for a stroll in the spring and I had no equipment. I, I had my Garmin collar and that was it. Didn't even have a shovel in my truck or nothing. And then we're walking through the woods, walking through the pasture, and then GD is like. I see him pick his head up and just bolt straight for a hole and then he goes and I'm like I'm panicking at that time.
Speaker 2:I'm calling my breeder, I'm calling my guy my buddies out west, you know, done this for for years and I panicked and he was underground for probably two and a half hours ish and I I couldn't tell where he was at. So I called one of my buddies and he come out and I went home, got a shovel and started digging and finally opened up and I heard him. I stuck my head down the hole and you could hear him coming. So he come running through and I just caught him just barely. He was going past people that I had uh pulled him out. We didn't actually didn't get a chance to get to it and uh, yeah, it was. It was definitely something, something new to me that I had never experienced before. Now I'm hooked on it and I won't go back.
Speaker 2:And you had asked about how we start puppies, so like we'll send them in and we'll open up a schooling hole, as we call it. So we'll open it up and we know that the whole end, where he's going to stay there, we'll put a pitchfork in front of the game so the dog gets the coming down at a weird angle and sees the animal, but it can't get bit. So I learned that from hunting with the jackrus, because that's how they like to go, because they don't like their dog to go in and bay. They don't like the collateral damage, they want the dog to bay so they can get to the quarry, identify it. And then either. The Jags are different. They like to go in and they like to be engaged, they like to. They let them fur, that's their reward.
Speaker 1:Okay, so the Jack Russells are more bay them as in, like kind of hold them there, and then the Yags are like they're going in to fight them.
Speaker 2:We're going in to have a little fight going on, because a lot of times when I'm starting a Yacht Terrier I will just show them the game and I won't let them have it. And then about six months I like to let my puppies be a puppy for about a year, right, and then once they hit that one one year mark, it's full contact If they want it, if they don't want it, we'll take our time a little bit slower with it. But there's a lot of times where I will start a dog at like eight to 10 months with with a raccoon, a small one or possum with the soft tricks of the possum just peels over when a dog gets into it, but a pot but a raccoon will fight pretty good.
Speaker 1:Oh, yeah, yeah, wow.
Speaker 1:That's a, that's incredible, just the size of the dogs and, um, you know, doing that and I couldn't imagine. I mean, I'm a coon, hound hunter and uh and a beagler and um, yeah, I couldn't imagine my dogs going underground. Like you said, it'd be kind of nerve-wracking the first time. So how, I mean they must be quite a scene sometimes because you think I know groundhogs above ground, they can be pretty vicious. I mean, those teeth have enough power to bite through tree roots and everything. What is the outcome when you got a yog terrier dive into a hole after it?
Speaker 2:so, um, actually, you know, a dog learns underground pretty quick, or once they get chewed on. Where the business is like my, I mean you'll deal with, you know, face, face puncture wounds, um, you know, just puncture wounds in general is what you deal with, nothing really major. The worst, the worst I've had personally myself. Um, this year we were dating groundhogs over on a farm that I have permission for and, uh, we marked the set, we got down to it A Jack Russell's. I had actually found the set and we opened it up and we got a picture. They wanted to just identify it for their purposes.
Speaker 2:But on my permissions I have to dispatch all reckons possums and ground bugs because they caused a lot of damage to a farmer's crops, and I sent my bigger female in Maud. She went in and she was engaged with it and she's very smart when she works games. She likes to grab, essentially like right by the top of the head and just hold. So we went in and the tails on the terriers, they call them handles. You can pull them out of holes that way. So she had went in, she engaged with the groundhog and she usually grabs by the top of the head and we tried to draw a little bit and she had let go. And she come out and I looked at and her front, her bottom lip, was just hanging. So I looked at her in the hole and like I handed her out because it's probably a six foot, five and a half six foot dig and I handed her out to one of the girls that was with me digging. I said, is that her lip hanging? And she said, oh yeah, it's hanging. Well, just take her to the truck and clean her up and then we'll get this out and put my male dog back in to work it. And he actually drew it out and we stuck it. We kind of pinned it to the ground. We ended up dispatching it in the hole in the ground 25 pounds and that was the worst I had.
Speaker 2:So I learned the one thing you learn with terriers pretty quick is kind of how to doctor them up or at least get them stuck back together enough to get them to a vet. So Sunday, that was on a Sunday and they're like well, she needs to go to the emergency vet and this, this and this. You know I'm not, I'm not broke by any means, but all I could think about was there goes about five grand. You know in the back of my head, yeah Easy. You know, on a Sunday emergency call and luckily I have a good relationship with my vet, um and I called and whenever I have an issue, you know, like on a week, and I'll call her and I'll leave her a voicemail and she usually gets me in right away. But I knew in my head all I had to do was get that lip, you know, stuck back up so the tissue didn't start dying out or drying out. You know I've been thankful in the terrier world.
Speaker 2:I've met a lot of people that have dealt with situations similar, and so we got right on the phone. One of my best friends was up here from St Louis. Andrew is super calm, the whole thing. I'm freaking out. Andrew's like, take a step back. We're going to make some phone calls, We'll figure this out. We have enough stuff here to fix this dog.
Speaker 2:So we kind of went through and I said well, because we all have a staple gun, staples are a big thing in the Terriers because they're quick and easy and you can fix about anything with a staple gun. So we came to the consensus that we needed to stitch over staple on the lit. So I made a couple phone calls and I found an old guy up that lives just on the border of Indiana and Michigan. He lives right on the border, so I called him. And michigan, he lives right on the border. So I called him and he said, yeah, I got a stooge here. So we actually drove up to him and we we put five stitches in her bottom lip just to get it held, you know, for the night, and I put her in the kennel and kept her quiet.
Speaker 2:And so monday rolls around and I work in the rv factory so we usually get off work fairly early. Well, it just so happened I don't know if it was the Terrier, gods, whatever, bringing good luck down on me or whatever but we happened to have like a minor fire at work and they wouldn't let us go back to work. So they sent us home at 6.30 in the morning. So I was like perfect, I got home at.30 in the morning. So I was like perfect, I got home at like 7.30. I hopped in my truck, drove to my vet and I walked in. I said I know I called you guys, she goes. Yeah, we were looking at the schedule and she goes. Well, you're here before my first appointment and she goes. Well, she goes, yeah, bring her in, I'll take a look at her. And so Monday took her into the vet and my vet goes this is your first time ever stitching. I said, yeah, she goes, not too bad for a first time. And we both kind of chuckled because I made the comment well, I'm practically a vet now and she said, well, I said I think I need a stitch on the inside of the lip and I have no way to put her down to do that, to put her under, to do that. She goes, yeah, bring her back in on Tuesday and I'll put her under and I'll clean everything up and restitch her. And she made a full recovery, thankfully.
Speaker 2:But I've heard I've heard multiple horror stories on of going to ground. I've heard, uh, fox are very notorious for actually backing into a tight hole and grabbing the dog by the face and twisting Okay. So I heard one of the girls that has a Jack Russell. Her Jack Russell actually had every bone broken, from its eye socket down from a fox grabbing and twisting. Jeez, or what they'll do is they'll pull him in and try to suffocate a dog. It's kind of tricky but like.
Speaker 2:If you dig with the right people or you learn people, it's not as stressful as it sounds because they you know, they've been a lot of the people I've been digging with for 20 plus years, and so you just you learn how to. When it was underground, listening to what's happening underneath the ground, because you can pretty much tell what's going on. You can hear a dog breathing, you can talk around, you can tell whether the dog's moving, you can tell whether it's engaged. You know from what you're hearing out of the hole. So the hole whispering is also a big key in it, because you can tell a lot what's going on in the ground from where the dog's acting or what noise they're made. Um, and that's that's.
Speaker 2:The one thing I can't stress enough is, if you're going to learn to do it, try to learn it the right way. It's hard to get in into a group of people that will take you hunting, but getting that initial time going with someone because I'll tell you right now I'm still alert and it's a a lot of it's always a learning. You learn something new from every set, which is what I found out pretty wild, even these people, the girls that have been doing it for so long they're like oh yeah, this is still, this is a new one for us. And you have, it's crazy how much you learn from set to set.
Speaker 1:Oh yeah, exactly. I mean I was going to ask do you find this is getting more popular, like in your area or in the United States in general? You getting the Yag Terriers?
Speaker 2:The Yag Terriers, I think, are getting more popular. But I think a lot of them are getting popular because everybody thinks they want one, but once they get one they don't realize that. You know, everybody has that stigma of being dog aggressive, people aggressive. You can't raise them in the house, you can't do this, you can't do that. But then somebody sees what people are doing with them. They're like, want one, but then they get one and then they realize it's it's a handful, like they can't handle it because they don't give them a job. They expect them to. You know, oh, I can hunt it on occasion. It's going to be fine. But I know that sometimes if they're, if they don't get hunted, they turn to get to me at grumpy because they're not getting work. So it's kind of it is getting more popular over here.
Speaker 2:But a lot of people also want to do earthwork. So I don't think the earthwork will ever be as big as any of the cocoon hunting or anything like that, because it's work. Nobody wants to go out and dig a hole in the weather or in the middle of the winter being out digging a dog where it's frozen. But they're getting. I think they're growing in popularity Like I don't know if I'd call it like a fad breed, but it might be like one of those fads that may come in and kind of fade out once people realize that, oh, this is not, this ain't for me.
Speaker 1:Yeah, I mean, I'm not, this ain't for me, yeah, yeah, I mean I'm guessing it's like any working breed, they need to be worked or they can be a bit of a terror. The terrier can be a terror at home. As far as like, if they are worked, you know, regularly, three, even four times a week, are they pretty good in the house. You said yours can turn it off off, turn off work mode and just kind of blaze around a bit, can they, and relax or yeah, yeah, like I mean there's, there's time to um.
Speaker 2:but I mean the story, I mean my man, when he, when he's ready to hunt or he's tired, like he'll get an attitude, he'll get grumpy and kind of just growl at you and and then you give him, you go out and you work him, or you go catch a raccoon I like going, cause I would do a lot of uh, like field hunting and just walk down a field or ditch and they'll just get whatever they want and once he gets chewed on a little bit, he's fine for a while. I mean, I've come home and my female on the other side, like she, she always wanted to be going, she always had to go, had to go, had to go, always moving, couldn't stop. And I come home one day and she had actually shewed a hole through the sidewall of my house and her head was stuck out the siding. It looked like one of those cartoons and I was like, okay, so you've been cooped up for too long. I guess we got to work now and I got to fix the house.
Speaker 2:Yeah, jeez, it is possible to have a Yogg in the house. There's a lot of people that do have their Yogg carriers in the house. A lot of people. They're easy to live with if they're being worked. If they're not being worked, they're not being worked. Good luck. I mean, it's just like anything else if they don't have a job, you're gonna have your hands full. I like to compare them to a 12 pound malinois. That's what they are, they're.
Speaker 1:they're very compatible to a malinois so are, are they pretty good around other dogs? If they've been worked, I'm guessing, if they've been cooped up for a bit of time and stuff, they could be, you know, grumpier with other dogs. But uh, in general are they fairly easy to get along with um, yes and no.
Speaker 2:So that right there has a lot to do with you know who they came from, breed wise, and as long as you socialize them, they're fine. I mean, my male dog plays with everybody, get a little growly here and there I've had. I've had some, I mean, unless some dog fights, but they're not like, they aren't just like going out to look for a fight. Because that's what I was worried about when I got my first one is cause I got him as a problem dog. Okay, you know, I had the stigma in the back of my head of oh, you can't have them with another dog, that's still another dog, yada, yada, yada. Well, his problem was he ate a couple of chickens and I was like, well, I ain't got no chicken, so send him up here, he'll be fine. And I brought him home.
Speaker 2:I had coyote hounds and he didn't bother with them. I've thrown them in boxes with them, I've cut them together on short runs and they've been fine. So if you socialize them and you kind of nip the dog aggression in the butt at an earlier age, you won't have a problem with it, as long as you stay on it. If you let them get away with it. They tend to hold grudges.
Speaker 1:And then you just have your hands full. Okay, yeah, that's fair enough With hunting them, do you? If you're going out and you set them loose? I mean, is it just anybody's guess what they're going to go after? It could be a coon, it could be a possum, it could be a ground dog. Can you kind of, when you're going out on a certain hunt, can you sort of deter them from going after a type of quarry, or it's just, it's their world and you're living in it when you're off for a hunt.
Speaker 2:It's their world and you're living in it. I mean, I try to, I try to deer break all my stuff, but yeah, essentially these terriers are these dogs, that's, that's what they are like. I, I don't care, I don't care what we're hunting or what they end up with. As long as they, um, as long as they show me quarry and and fur, I'm good with whatever they want to run. If we want to go run rabbits and they want to chase rabbits down, we'll go chase rabbits. If they want to snatch a raccoon, we'll snatch a raccoon. That's mainly what we go after the bar mitzvah. We try to avoid skunks, but unfortunately it does happen and there's a whole for that with the skunks oh yeah yeah.
Speaker 2:so what is that? That musk that the skunk emits, you know, with the spray will actually suffocate a dog. What it does is it gets in there, they inhale it and it gets into their bloodstream and it robs all their oxygen. So, no matter what, if a dog goes to ground and we smell skunks, no, we don't wait like we open up, get as much air to the dog as possible and, where there's, and we pull them out and you take edge shave gel, the original edge shave gel, put it on them. That covers the smell.
Speaker 2:But if the dog starts, you know, acting like funny, looks like it's having, can't really breathe and it's kind of falling out, you you immediately want to call your vet and you want to tell the vet treat the dog as a cat that just ate Tylenol, and it's the same effect, has the same effect on it as like a cat that ate a bunch of Tylenol, and you can save a dog pretty quick that way. So, like I have a, I have a stunk kit in my truck that has, you know, gloves, rags, shave gel, and it's got a laminated paper in there of exactly what to tell your vet in that situation, like word for word what they say, and it's actually wrote out by a vet that works carriers. I believe he's in New Jersey. I want to say he's in New York and New Jersey but he actually wrote that out to give to someone you know, just so you can read that up and have that as a resource that you're paying attention to get the dog essentially taken care of and fixed.
Speaker 1:Okay, wow, that's, wow, that's handy. So what were you saying? The shave gel does again.
Speaker 2:The edge shave gel, it'll cut down the scent and then you can just put it on them and it'll at least make it manageable. It's not going to 100% take it, because you're still going to have that skunk smell, but if you get it on right away, as soon as it happens, it cuts that scent down tremendously.
Speaker 1:Okay, that's good to know, Really good to know.
Speaker 2:And that works on every dog. And then there's, like hydrogen peroxide that you can do afterwards. But, like I said, I've been back on wood. I've been fortunate to not have to deal with a skunk yet, but I'm sure it's coming.
Speaker 1:Do you guys have porcupines down there or no?
Speaker 2:We don't have porcupines. That's lucky, Because I know my biggest fear. When I was running on Kyle they used to go up into Michigan, the north of Michigan, and run and they said, oh yeah, we got a porky, Find him. They're like great, I'm running a trashy, not real trashy, a trashy paddock. He trashes on 10. So he's going to think that's a wreck. All I can think about is that they're pulling quills for an hour and a half or whatever. I'm in that region where I don't have it, but I've heard horror stories of dogs going to ground with them and then them having to pull a dog out and then pull quills for hours on end. And of course, everything's in the face because the holes they don't go anywhere else but straight to the face because that holds.
Speaker 1:you know they don't go anywhere else, but straight to the face. Yeah, yeah, no, I'm thankful for not having to deal with them. Yeah, yeah, that's really lucky.
Speaker 2:I know I've heard guys say I have a buddy that I had a lot of experience with and he's like they're not as bad as what people think they are. But you know, for me you me not having to deal with them, I think that just sounds like the worst possible case scenario is having to pull clothes for hours.
Speaker 1:Yeah, it's not fun in trying to hold the dog well enough so you can get the pliers in there and the dog's biting at you and everything, because obviously it's incredibly painful and, yeah, that's not a good time. So you guys are lucky for not having to deal with that, and I imagine the way that those Terriers are is. You know, they just go full tilt at them and it'd be a mess.
Speaker 2:Yeah, and the way I see it going is I see them, you know, fill in the quills, like, hit them, and then they're like like oh, game on now. Now we're ready to party, we're going to hit it harder now and they're just going to go back in and just keep repeatedly getting it. Because that's that seems to be like my male dog. I like to compare him to a cat, because he's one of those like, if we catch a tune above ground or even underground, he likes to get a couple times okay, I'm seeing red, now it's over. He goes in and eventually gets a good hold on it and dispatches the raccoon. But there's just no reason that he'll go in and he'll get bit a little bit. He'll get bit a little more and then it's like okay, I've had enough, now I'm done. So I just feel like they're just going to go in there and take as many quills as they possibly can before they realize that, oh, this is bad yeah.
Speaker 1:Yeah, no, it's definitely lucky that you don't have that. Yeah, I mean, thanks so much, nick, for coming on and giving us a bit of an insight into this unique world of these amazing dogs. I mean, like you were saying earlier, if these things were 100 pounds, they sound absolutely terrifying.
Speaker 2:There's nothing like that. I've heard stories of guys bear hunters using them to go in and they'll, essentially, once the bear's on the ground and they want to get the hounds off, they'll send a little terrier in to pester them. And those young terriers they don't. A little terrier in to pester them, those young terriers, they don't care, they'll distract that bear so they can pull the dogs off and then they'll call the terrier off. And the terriers, they're cool.
Speaker 2:Like I said, they're a fun breed to do and, like I said, I encourage anybody that's interested in them. They can reach out to me on Facebook and I'll sell them in on stuff and I do. The one thing I did like to I would like to add is if you're looking to get into a terrier, try to get to one of the AWTA trials. Put your hands on these dogs before you get one and watch them work. Talk to the breeders that are there, the guys that are in the club. I learned so much more than what you can via Facebook or even on Google, because you're going to get a thousand different answers and this, this and this. But if you can get to a trial and put hands on one and talk to them a lot of that will help you guys get started.
Speaker 1:Yeah, for sure. I mean that's really good advice because I find that, yeah, I think maybe enough people don't do that when they are looking for a working dog, whether it be a terrier or a hound or even some of the bird dogs or whatever it may be is that, yeah, they watch a lot of YouTube videos that make it look great and read about it, but I mean, you can't beat hands-on being there with the dog and talking to experienced people about it and seeing you know, is this the right breed for me?
Speaker 2:That's what I see happening. That's what I see happening with a lot of this. People don't do their homework and they're like, oh, I love the idea I have one, and then they get one and it's just like, oh wow, I got my hands full, I can't take it, and that's why they end up at the shelter.
Speaker 1:Yeah, yeah, no, that's really good. So what was the organization? You said again, what was the A?
Speaker 2:It's A-H-T-A, the American Hunt Terrier Association. Okay, that association. Okay, um, that's the, that is the, the american jag carrier club. Um, there's, we have, uh, four trials a year, um, the quote, one in michigan, we have one in kentucky, one in texas and one in south dakota, and the, the club's small and like, when we get together at these trials it's everyone's welcome and like.
Speaker 2:What I try to do is I'm big on getting the youth involved, or getting people that can't can't get a dog to do to, you know, get their feet wet, they can handle it. There was a gentleman that showed up to our Kentucky trial and the dad came in Friday and it was like, hey, my son's really interested in dogs but he's in a wheelchair. Can he get to these, these events and stuff? Everything was pretty close to here. The only one we have to go somewhere to is for the water rate. And so Saturday morning I saw him pull up and I was like, because I take, I pack four to five Terriers every trial, so you know, I have countless ribbons, countless awards. He came in and I walked over and I was like, hey, are you going to be around all day? He said yeah. I said I just got too many dogs. Do you want to handle one for me? He goes, oh, goes, oh. Absolutely I'd love that. So I gave him my male dog and he took him through all the trials and all the competitions and stuff and placed pretty well with him. That's the one thing.
Speaker 2:They raffle off puppies at these trials. I think I've won. I've won two and none of them have made them back to my house. I give them to you. One of my good friends in southern Indiana, his boy. We were down in Texas and I won the puppy and I walked over to his boy and said well, go pick your puppy. I ain't taking it home, I just try to get everybody involved. It's a fun organization to be involved with and we're big on pushing the youth try to get everybody involved. So it's like it's a good. It's a fun organization to be involved with and we're big on, you know, pushing the youth and getting the youth involved. There's not a lot of people that want to get interested into it anymore.
Speaker 1:Yeah, that's really great to hear, nick. It's just, you know, getting, like you say, getting youth involved and giving people a positive experience with it and with any kind of hunting dogs is, you know, the more people we can get on our side, the more of a voice we have and a vote, and, you know, just to be able to try to keep this going, this tradition, this, uh, you know, hobby sport, whatever you want to call it, passion yeah, that's, that's the the one thing you know.
Speaker 2:I went, I've done a lot of travel and I mean I've been, I've traveled all over the country with these dogs and I've gone to, you know, different events. I've gone to the jrtca events, which is the jack russell of america, america events, and you know like our trials are are fairly, you know, there's a younger crowd. I mean it's getting older, but the Jack Russell Club is a lot of older folks and we notice, as some of them are getting, you know, up in age and they're not passing on that tradition or passing on that knowledge of digging you know the dogs or doing the earthwork to help the people out the right way to get started. And that's why I was like you know I'm not going to be, I'm going to learn the people out the right way to get started and that's why I was like you know I'm not gonna be, I'm gonna learn the best I can and I'm gonna try to, you know, pass it on to people and have the opportunity that are interested but don't know how to get started, and that's kind of my.
Speaker 2:My goal I set out to do with these little terriers is I just want to, I want to learn and I want to help keep it alive because it is a fun activity. I know that digging doesn't sound fun, but it's a fun activity. The one thing I've noticed since I've had the terriers is sometimes, when you're coon hunting or you're beagle hunting, you have a hard time getting access to ground. It seems if you tell a farmer, no matter what they are, if you tell them here, I just want to come out, I don't want to kill varmints on your farm, I want to do your groundhogs, your raccoons, your possums. If I dig, I'll fill my holes back in, plus another one. That's what I always tell my farmers. If I dig a hole, I like to try to fill up holes and make it look like I wasn't there. And that's the one thing I've noticed about the tears is it's super easy to gain access to property that way.
Speaker 1:Yeah, just a pile of hunting opportunity. And you know that's great too is putting it back the way you found it Well, even better than how you found it, and that's what keeps, you know, the next person that comes along be able to do it, and so on and so forth, and just there's lots of people that are getting into this, lots of area to do it and, you know, possibly help grow the sport even more.
Speaker 2:Yeah, that's the one thing with the earthworking's it's kind of a dying way over here, but you know, over Europe it's huge, like that's all they do. Um, one of my friends that I've met through the carriers that actually sold me all of my, my, my digging equipment, my tracking collars and stuff. He's originally from Ireland and they dig badger box all the time and it's just, it's a common practice over there. Over here it's a bit of a taboo or like kind of a of a gray area. I want to say, um, because you're not, you don't, you don't want to, you don't want to get yourself into an issue with, like you know, the game wardens, obviously, but if you're digging varmint they don't have a problem with it. It seems to me it's like they kind of look at you like you're crazy. They're like, okay, well, have fun, and they, they just cut their nose and go the other way. Yeah, but it's, it's definitely, it's definitely a fun thing to get into it and it seems like your season never ends, like you could dig all year round.
Speaker 1:You could do tail all year round and they're super portable and very affordable to feed yeah, I mean just looking at your facebook, I love seeing uh the pictures and all that and with all the yeah, there's a different quarry in a lot of your pictures throughout the year I've noticed and, like you said, it just doesn't seem to end. So it's great it just, uh, gives you more time outside with your working dog and be able to work it.
Speaker 2:Yeah, it's definitely fun. I encourage anybody who's somewhat interested in you know the terrier stuff or even have a Jack Russell, your little house Jack Russell might surprise you when you give it the opportunity to get that thing out and let it run a little bit and stretch it. You might end up with a with a bang up earth dog that that was working.
Speaker 1:Yeah, for sure. Um, I think this is good and this you coming on this podcast as well probably help, uh, you know, to reach more people that are kind of maybe contemplated it before and the thought crossed their mind. Now they hopefully they'll check out, uh, you know, some of these organizations you're talking about and maybe go in person and possibly find themselves a dog at the end of the day.
Speaker 2:Yeah, um, there's the. There's two main organizations. You have the, the HTA, which is the Jack Terrier Club um for America, and you have what's known as the AWTA, which is the American Working Terrier Association, and that covers all working terrier breeds. So you're looking at your Dash Hounds, your Patterdales, your Jags, your Jack Russells, there's even some Border Terriers in there, so it just covers all your, all your working breeds, and that's a good organization also to get involved with. And they have, um, what they call den piles.
Speaker 2:So that would be an artificial tunnel setup, um, where they have corn at the end, which is usually rats, and it has to go through this. There's an elevation change. Some of the tunnels are even buried underground, so it's very real and it's just the fastest time to the quarry at the end. And it's kind of fun to watch and it's amazing watching a dog go to ground and just work, even in the tunnels. It's fun to watch because you know you'll put up really fast times but the dog has to sort through. There may be an object in there that they have to know which way is the dead end, there's a false out, and then obviously you have the inquiry and it's fun. I haven't been to an AWTA trial personally, but our AHA trials are very similar to what they do with their AWT trials.
Speaker 1:Okay, yeah, it sounds interesting, I know yeah it'd be cool to see I mean compared just coming from the Coon Hill and we're on the Beagles and then just taking the chase underground. Yeah, I think it would be cool to watch.
Speaker 2:Definitely a sight to see. It's a new experience, like because I, you know, I have buddies that are big into the competition, tune hounds and you know they, they say, oh, we walked you know 10 miles tonight. But above and I say, well, let's, let's go, but that doesn't sound like fun at all. I'm like you just told me you walked 10 miles last night, yeah, to look at a raccoon, and that doesn't even sound fun. But it's a lot of fun, you know, if you get a good group of people around that you can learn from and have experience. It takes the stress away, it gets that dog entering the ground and, you know, essentially being gone. Because that's the one thing I couldn't get over, because I didn't have the proper equipment, which is the Bellman Flint earth collars. I had to.
Speaker 2:I always thought when the dog got out of sight, you struck a shovel and you ducked, you essentially burrowed in behind him. Well, that bit me in the butt because my male dog was like, oh, I hear a shovel coming, I'm right. So he likes to stay underground, no matter what, whether there's Corey in it or not, and it's frustrating. But and it's not like I'm going to get rid of him for it because every dog that I have has a specific job, from my terriers to my lurcher. So my lurcher, she's a sighthound that's above ground to watch for a game that's bolting and if it's in to draw so I'll use him male dog back in and he'll know where to engage, so I can stick around him where I can get my lurcher in to draw the quarry out, right, yeah, so every dog I own has a job, from my little female to my big female and everybody in between. They have we call it tools in the toolbox and they all have different jobs.
Speaker 1:Yeah, the lurcher. That's interesting. It's a unique addition to. I mean I suppose it would go hand in hand if the thing something just flies up out of the hole while you know the terrier's in there.
Speaker 2:Yeah, so what my lurcher is? She's greyhound, whip it and a splash of pit bull in her. So she's very leggy, very muscle and fast. And when I got her she was she come from, she's originally from Oregon and she was used on Nutrius. I guess with Nutrius they bolt a lot and like my experience like I've never had game bolt, but when game bolt it's just chaos.
Speaker 2:The first time I had bolted game I was hunting and my female, my little Yacht Terrier, went in and so I go, she's in the set. So we walked down there and there's a guy standing in front of the hole. There's a guy standing in front of the hole and this raccoon just comes bailing out and like grabs onto his leg and then bails off and takes off going down the creek. And then another one comes up, goes the opposite way and my buddy Andrew was with me in the truck and he comes bailing out of the truck and like leaps into the creek and takes off on the one on foot and trying to get the other lurcher on it. And I'm like, oh wait, my dog's still in there. So I go down to stick my head in the hole. Number three bails out and I'm like, oh, and then here comes my female and she's like what just happened? And it was, and I, and after and since I've gotten my lurcher, like I don't know how I did it without one. You know, just if one bolts, you know that terrier doesn't get out of the ground fast enough and the lurchers, they're very good about the way on top of the hole and they'll just be like taking a nap and lazy or they'll hear something and then they'll go. As soon as it bolts, they go out and grab it.
Speaker 2:Um, and I've had. I've had where I was digging in the middle of a hayfield for a groundhog and my female had went in and I was digging by myself, which I don't, I don't really like to do, just because it's kind of stressful, because you don't have someone there to run and get tools that can either give you a hand if you get into a situation. Yeah, um, but we're sitting out and my little female, athena, went in and she engaged with the groundhog and she pushed it towards the exit and my lurcher was laying there. She heard it coming closer and closer. She just did her stick.
Speaker 2:So it's funny because, you know, underneath the ground, athena's like oh, it's getting away from me and tagged my lurchers up top thinking the same thing. And when my little female underneath let go and she tagged, you know, took out the groundhog and dispatched it, I looked back in the hole and athena's like looking up at me like what just happened? Where did it go? And she backed back in thinking it went around her. So I mean, I mean, adding a lurcher to the earth game is just it's fun when they both click and work together. When we free cast you know find sets, you'll see my lurcher with her head buried up to her shoulders checking holes for the dogs. It's just awesome.
Speaker 1:That's pretty cool, yeah, yeah, awesome. That's pretty cool, yeah, yeah, just having two breeds, two dogs, but breeds that are so different, uh, than working together, you know, for man, you know great, great example of man's best friend.
Speaker 2:I guess you could say and when they click it's, it's just it's. It's funny to watch them click and work together. You know you have, you have a dog that's. You know my terriers are, you know, between 12 and 18 pounds and my lurcher she's about 65 pounds. You know she's big and leggy, so she fills my big dog but she pairs phenomenally with my little dogs, which I was worried when I got her because I wasn't sure how it was with them, because I've heard stories of the lurchers being hard on tears if they're above ground they kind of focus in on them as game. But Tag has just filled all the voids that I was missing in my pack.
Speaker 1:Yeah, that's great how she was just able to click into like sit to your pack and work out.
Speaker 2:Yeah, and I've learned from her. She's taught me things Like the first night I brought her home. I drove to Wisconsin to get her because the guy had moved back and I got home and we'd been on the road for, you know, about six hours and I got home and I flipped her loose. I just opened the car door, not thinking, and I didn't have a tracker or anything. She took off and I'm like, oh no, she's gone. She took two laps around the house and came right back to the car. Ever since then she's been inseparable, because I know any other time that dog would have been gone.
Speaker 1:Oh yeah, you hear about that. No, that's really great that the mixture of breeds that she is it's. It's made in being in an unfamiliar place that she did come right back yeah, and she's.
Speaker 2:She's one of those that I've I've learned, you know, like the guy said, she goes oh, I don't know how she's gonna be around kids, this, this and this, but like she loves the kids, she sleeps in my bed every night. I don't kennel her during the day, honestly. I think she sleeps about 23 hours a day, but when it's time to work she'll work all day. We've caught, I've checked her out behind the house and I've sent her on groundhogs that were 550 yards out in the field and she's caught them before they've gotten too old. It's fun watching the sighthound work because they just they get this, they get. They just lock in and and they're just gone. They're just fastest thing, best thing I've ever seen work. But if they get up to something and it doesn't fight back or just move. So I just whined.
Speaker 2:I was I was deer hunting behind my house and I'd watch the possum come out in the field and I was like I'm deer hunting, I'm not going to go in and get tagged. And then I sat there for another 10 minutes in the ground and the possum's out there just antagonizing me. I'm like all right, I guess I let my intrusive thoughts get the best of me and I walked back to my house and I grabbed tag and snuck out to the field and I sent it on the possum and she saw it move. I tried to make a break for the woods and didn't make it. But of course that possum saw this big black dog come flying at it and it balled up and just stopped moving and she was like sitting there, whining at it, couldn't figure out what was going on. She's like sitting there whining at it, couldn't figure out what was going on. She's like what are you doing? And she was whining and finally I talked her to biting and she went and bought. She went and bit on it and then took it into the field and tried to hide it from me.
Speaker 2:But yeah, it's, it's funny with, like the sight hounds. They're super soft-handed and you can't really handle them super hard. Where it tears the complete opposite. The terror sometimes needs to be corrected fairly hard before it it realizes that it's done wrong and it's. I kind of have to adjust when I I'm training her or working with her, which is which is kind of hard. So I'm used to my my knucklehead tears that you shock them with the garment it's got their neck, shake it off and then run away from here.
Speaker 1:Yeah, the Garmin they scratch their neck, shake it off and then run away from you. Yeah, I know, my mom's Jack Russell is definitely stubborn.
Speaker 2:That's the one thing. They're super stubborn and they're kind of fun and they'll do whatever you ask them to do. That's the one thing I've learned with mine. I've actually made a job with them. Out of them, you know, we go into um warehouses and find detect mice with them and we'll find rodents with them. It's it's, it's wild that you can get a dog to tone itself down that much to work. Yeah, and it's, it's a blast. Yeah, yeah, because I got them. I got them mainly, got them mainly for my nuisance wildlife business to get in tight spots that I can get into. So they're very versatile dogs for about anything.
Speaker 1:Yeah, well, they'd be a huge asset to a business like that, for sure, dealing with, yeah, nuisance wildlife. But yeah, no, like I said, nick thanks so much for telling us about this breed and I know a lot more about it than I did going into this podcast. I really I just knew that they were a very high, strong, tough, strong-willed dog and just learning about the earthworks and all that that was really interesting. So I said thanks for, uh, yeah, for opening up this world to us.
Speaker 2:Yeah, for sure. And, like I said, if anybody's interested they can feel free to like me up on social media. I try to get back to people pretty quick. Um, and, like I said, if they want to reach out, if they interested in any of these club trials or anything going on, I'm sure I can get them the dates for them and, like I said, they're more than welcome to show up. It's a good family event. You know we have we do, we do go to ground, we do confirmation, we do tracking, we do treeing, we do a water race and then we do kind of an exhibition high jump and these little dogs are jumping anywhere between. Some of these dogs are jumping eight feet high up a wall. So it's pretty, so it's pretty interesting and you know we do raffles and we try to welcome everybody into the, into the club.
Speaker 1:Yeah, oh, like I said, uh, thanks, and I'm sure we'll have you on again because, uh, there's some more good stories there.
Speaker 2:Oh yeah, Like I said, I'm in deep into the Terrier world and I think it's the niche that I'm going to stick with. I just have too much fun and I enjoy everything I do with them.