Hunts On Outfitting Podcast
Stories! As hunters and outdoors people that seems to be a common thing we all have lots of. Join your amateur guide and host on this channel Ken as he gets tales from guys and gals. Chasing that trophy buck for years to an entertaining morning on the duck pond, comedian ones, to interesting that's what you are going to hear. Also along with some general hunting discussions from time to time but making sure to leave political talks out of it. Don't take this too serious as we sure don't! If you enjoy this at all or find it fun to listen to, we really appreciate if you would subscribe and leave a review. Thanks for. checking us out! We are also on fb as Hunts on outfitting, and instagram. We are on YouTube as Hunts on outfitting podcast.
Hunts On Outfitting Podcast
From Bull Riding To Lion Hunting
Walker Witt embodies the dream that many eastern hunters hold close—leaving everything behind to build a life in the western mountains. After growing up hunting whitetails and turkeys in Pennsylvania, Walker packed his bags the summer after high school graduation and headed to Montana to guide elk hunts. He never looked back.
Walker brings a unique background to his guiding career. A bull rider since age 17—initially hiding competitions from his concerned mother—he carries that same grit into the mountains. This resilience served him well when he was thrown into guiding responsibilities after another guide abandoned their hunting party. Despite being new to elk country, Walker's hunting instincts proved strong, and he quickly adapted to calling in bulls and reading elk behavior in the thick northwestern forests.
The conversation delves into fascinating insights about western hunting. Walker explains how herd bulls in thick timber typically manage only about a dozen cows compared to 30-60 in open country due to visibility limitations. He shares his philosophy that "you can fool an elk's eyes and his ears, but you'll never fool his nose," emphasizing wind strategy above all else. Eastern turkey hunters, he notes, often make superior elk guides because their calling experience transfers perfectly to elk hunting scenarios.
Perhaps most captivating is Walker's passion for hound hunting. Starting with beagles for rabbits in Pennsylvania, he now runs hounds for mountain lions and bears in Montana and Idaho. He explains the surprising fact that mountain lions typically tree quickly (within 600-800 yards) because their muscular bodies can't sustain prolonged oxygen demands—contrary to bears that might lead hunters on 20-mile pursuits. His recent work removing a problem cougar that was killing livestock and pets highlights the practical conservation role that hunters play in managing predator populations.
Whether you're an aspiring western hunter, fascinated by predator hunting, or simply enjoy authentic stories from the mountains, Walker's journey from Pennsylvania bull rider to Montana wilderness guide offers a genuine look at what it takes to pursue a life committed to the outdoors. Listen now to experience hunting wisdom earned through years in some of America's most challenging terrain.
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this is hunts on outfitting podcast. I'm your host and rookie guide, ken marr. I love everything hunting the outdoors and all things associated with it, from stories to how-tos. You'll find it here. Welcome to the podcast. All right, thanks for joining us on this week's podcast. We're happy to have you listening, as always, and we hope that you share us out with your friends and family. All right, so this week on the podcast we get to meet Walker Witt. Who is he? He's a bull riding elk calling lion chasing guide. That we get to hear all about in this week's podcast. We hope you enjoy, All right. Yeah, Walker, I mean thanks for taking my call, and it was interesting last week talking to you and finding a bit about who you are, and then we were supposed to do a podcast yesterday but you got stuck. You were getting trail cameras at the mountain, were you?
Speaker 2:Yeah, yeah, I was. Seems like I'm stuck in the snow more than I'm getting to do anything up there.
Speaker 1:So, walker, you're living right now was it right by Idaho? But you're in Montana, yep, yep, but that's not where you're originally from. You're originally from Pennsylvania, and then, if you want to take it from there, I mean it kind of sounds like you're living the American dream.
Speaker 2:Yeah, I guess. So yeah, I grew up in southwest Pennsylvania hunting and fishing and all that stuff and then the summer after high school I just packed my bags and headed out to Montana to guide elk hunts. And yeah, it's pretty much history from there. I went back my first winter, I went back home, and then I come back out that spring and then never went back. My first winter I went back home and then I come back out that spring and then never went back.
Speaker 1:So the rest is history, yeah, I mean. So what did you grow up hunting, mainly in Pennsylvania, like what got you into wanting to pursue elk and guide for them?
Speaker 2:You know, I was thinking about that there the other day, um, and I, I don't know, I kind of just always had like a some sort of drive for western hunting. Um, because really in the east all we got, you know, white tail and turkeys and, uh, some bears, um small game, but, um, my, my dad went on an elk hunt in colorado when I was like nine or ten and he, whenever he got back, he was telling all the stories you know, he was like they slept in hammocks or whatever. They hiked up in the mountains, slept in hammocks and hunted, um, and just seeing the pictures that he took, like I don't know, I could not wait to do it one of these days. And, uh, I don't know, I wanted to make money hunting.
Speaker 2:Um, you know, I I started a youtube channel, I did some stuff with the pursuit channel in high school, um, and then I kind of just figured, you know, the tv hunting industry is is really fake, what I found out. So, yeah, I was like you know, I want TV hunting industry is really fake, that's what I found out. So I was like, you know, I want to do the real deal. So guiding was pretty much my option to make money hunting.
Speaker 1:Yeah, that's awesome. Yeah, and then too I mean yeah, so that's what got the? You know the bug in you for elk. It was just having your dad go out and then seeing that.
Speaker 2:And that's you know. You're like, well, there's nothing in Pennsylvania like that and I'd sure like to get on one. Yeah, yeah, he like he had pictures of these birds they were feeding, like the birds would sit in their hands, and just the pictures of the mountains. And and he like he was shot grouse for his dinner the one night with his bow. I thought that was awesome, because the grouse population in pennsylvania is like almost completely gone because of predators. Um, and then same thing, like he was catching trout out of the streams and eating it and pennsylvania only has stock of trout. So it's like, oh, I don't know, I thought it was awesome, just how wild. It was awesome, just how wild it was, I think.
Speaker 1:Um, yeah, yeah, the West, I mean it obviously compared, pennsylvania is beautiful, but I mean the West is just, I guess you could say, breathtaking, you know just the big skies and all that. And then, um, but you too, another interesting thing about you so you were a bull rider, uh, through high school and everything in Pennsylvania, cause I thought maybe it took that up at West, cause it's, you know, it's a Western thing.
Speaker 2:But that's not where it started.
Speaker 2:Yeah, I uh, I actually started when I was 17. Um, and I was, so my mom, I wanted to do it like my whole life. My mom wouldn't let me do it, wouldn't let me do it. She was like you're not, you know, she didn't want me to get hurt or whatever. So I had a buddy, that kind of rode bulls, and I talked to him or whatever, and we, we, I just pretty much signed up because you're supposed to be 18, but there's so many rodeos back there that they don't ever get a parent's signature, like you just sign it and say you're 18. They don't check for any identification or nothing.
Speaker 2:So I actually just yeah, and and I rode bulls like every single weekend for two, three months without my mom knowing. It was kind of funny because bull riding you, you got like your rigging bag or whatever. So I just had like this duffel bag of stuff that was slowly growing like of all my riding gear and I'd be like like I don't know what I was even telling her. I remember one time I told her we were going to a concert and I'm like walking out the door with a cowboy hat and a duffel bag and it's like okay, but but then she found out so she wasn't very happy but she got over it.
Speaker 1:Yeah well, did you have any like major injuries or anything that you had to try to like hide from her, or you got lucky?
Speaker 2:So I have been pretty fortunate with the riding. Really, I just got in with like the right type of dude Cause if you get in with the wrong guys, they they just want to throw you on stuff that kills you. And the guys I got in with you know they, they taught us. You know, yeah, you want to be gritty and if you can grit out a bull and get your ride and do it, but you also don't want to stay an extra jump for two and then it sucks you underneath of it and you're getting broken legs and arms and lacerated livers and all that. So I'd been pretty fortunate enough to where I, as soon as I would get my hips rocked out, I would just jump off and, uh, get out of there. But most of the time if I got hurt it was a knockout or a concussion type of deal. Um, I haven't been stepped on a ton, you know. Usually you know I'll get a leg or something stepped on. But usually when I would get hurt it was because I would go over the front and the bull would. I would hit my face off of its horns. Um, but the worst one I ever had I think it was two years ago and I actually flew back to pennsylvania for a week to ride with my brother and all my buddies, I guess for old time's sake. And yeah, I, I, uh, I actually drew a bull that I have been on one time before and I knew I could ride them and I took them to like seven seconds and I went over the front and all I wear is like a $80 hockey helmet. It really doesn't do anything but protect your face from getting scratches. I guess it really doesn't keep you from getting knocked out, but uh, yeah, I like it hit me, keep you from getting knocked out.
Speaker 2:But uh, yeah, I like it hit me, his horn, hit me right on the temple, and then I just like fell off the side and I don't remember anything except for the bullfighter coming up to me and being like just stay right there. And you know, usually when you hit the dirt you're like trying to get out of there. But I was really conscious, I don't know I all I remember being on the ground on a ball and the bullfighter being like just stay there. And then I don't remember anything else for about an hour and I remember we picked up my buddy from his college. I didn't even know he was there. He come up behind me and I was like what are you doing here, jesse? He was like bro I rode here with and they were asking me questions. I didn't remember anything, didn't know where the car was, didn't know the day of the week, and I've been knocked out probably like 25 times, 30 times, and I've never had it that bad. And that one was like man, I might be in some trouble here, but yeah, yeah.
Speaker 1:So I mean in some trouble here. Yeah, so I mean, are you still doing it some? You said it's not where you're at in Montana, surprisingly. I mean I think that is the West bull riding, but you said there's not as much in your area as there is in Pennsylvania where you grew up.
Speaker 2:Yeah, so where I grew up in Pennsylvania, I could go two hours any direction and I could ride four or five days a week. But out here, I think, just because it's so remote, like there's one over in Kalispell which is like two and a half hours away, and that's really it in the wintertime, but in the summertime there's a bunch of fair rodeos but they made them all prca which you got to go get a card and all that stuff which I did just finally get my prca card notarized and all that, so I could go do that this summer. But, um, it was kind of hard for me, just because I don't like it's tough with guiding because I try not to get hurt right before hunting season. Yeah, I was gonna ask, yeah, yeah, so like I would start getting really, really good and being able to ride stuff consistently and then guide season would come up and I would quit riding for three, four months and then go get back on and I would have to pretty much restart again.
Speaker 1:But uh yeah, yeah, I mean it's quite a bit. Uh yeah, it's a lot to it. It's funny too, you see, at some bull riding events and all that and I've been fortunate enough to be able to go to, uh, the pbrs come out my way before and you've got sometimes you've got the animal rights activists protesting saying it's cruel to the bulls, and I'll tell, tell you, those bulls, they are well looked after, as I'm sure you know, and they are fine. It's the cowboys that take the beating.
Speaker 2:Yeah, yeah, exactly. And a lot of people just don't get it Like they try to say that they tie the flank strap around their balls. Yeah, it's a common myth. Yeah, it's called a flank strap around their balls. Yeah, it's a common myth. Yeah, it's called a flank strap. All it is is, you know, it just gives the bull something to kick at. It's like a soft cotton rope and it's just right against their flank so they can kick at it. And if you watch any bull, as soon as that flank strap comes off they quit kicking.
Speaker 1:Yeah, and I think a lot of people don't realize either that these aren't just random barnyard bulls. These are, like you know, bred for generations specifically for bucking. These aren't the ones that you're going to see necessarily out, you know, breeding someone's angus cattle or something like that right, right, yeah, these things are athletes yeah, yeah, no. That, yeah, no. That's really cool. So you leave Pennsylvania and you head out west because you want to guide elk there. I mean, how did you find the outfitter to work with, and what was your first season like?
Speaker 2:So I found the outfitter I work with. I kind of knew of them through my dad, but I also I went to the outdoor, outdoor show, talked to some outfitters or whatever, and they they pretty much, uh, were like, yeah, whatever, we'll take you on as an apprentice, um, apprentice packers, what they call. I I just pretty much left. I I was so dumb because I left at like six or seven at night, well, I mean whatever. But yeah, once I, once I got out here, uh, they pretty much were like, yeah, you got to learn the area, whatever. So I just hiked every single day. I probably put 50, 60 miles on in a week just trying to learn country and everything. And then my first two weeks I shadowed a guide and then the people I worked for, the wife, got in a fight with one of the guides. It was a huge ordeal which this guide he kind of had been a pain in the butt, um, and he actually left us on the mountain, which that's like number one rule you don't leave, you don't leave nobody on the mountain. Yeah, we're.
Speaker 2:I think it was like my third or fourth day there we were. The outfitter owner was like, why don't you guys go hike this area because he was kind of new I think he was his second year but he come around like we. It was like a giant bowl. We walked around and then we were dropping back down to the truck and like the kid just left us which I think the kid he actually got fired at another outfitter before for his attitude and all this stuff and he was lazy yeah, he was very lazy, but yeah, yeah.
Speaker 2:So what happened was he got mad because we were hiking ahead of him. He couldn't like keep up with us and we were just kind of trying to blaze this, which he wasn't that far behind us he's probably 10 yards behind us, but he didn't like that and then he just like got mad and left, just completely dove off the side of the mountain and we were like where the heck is he at? And so we waited for him for like an hour, cause we had planned on meeting at this one spot and then dropping straight down through these cliffs to the truck, and he just show up. So we were like, okay, well, let's just go to the truck, maybe he's there. And we got to the truck and he wasn't there and then, like 20 minutes later, he just pops out of the bushes and he's like I've been watching you guys and we're like what. I've been watching you guys and we're like what. But yeah, then I think it was like two days after that he got in a fight with the owner's wife.
Speaker 1:He was gone.
Speaker 2:I don't know, yeah, they were like hey, pretty much we need you. So and I it's kind of funny Cause like hey, pretty much we need you. It's kind of funny because I grew up hunting, I know how to hunt, but I'm hunting elk in a completely different country, but I knew enough and they pretty much just threw me to the wolves. I think we seen a spike bull which can't shoot spikes in that unit. Um, on the second day of the hunt and the client I had, he was a like a commercial hiker, I guess you could call it, I don't know he that was like his hobby was hiking, like he went all around the country and world to national parks to hike and he was actually trying to go to every single national park in the world or country or whatever and and hike there. And he has like stickers on whatever his water bottle, on his truck and all that. Oh yeah, but he wasn't, he was actually from Pennsylvania too and, uh, I actually found it was kind of interesting because my first day ever guiding a client, I found two elk sheds and I think it was three white tail sheds, which is insane. Yeah, that's really cool. But um, yeah, pretty much we seen a spike on the second day and then we seen nothing until the very last day. And you know that was one of the hardest things I learned. Being a guide is like keeping your clients morale up. It goes so such a far way, especially in this country. It's so steep and thick, guys can't really hack it very often.
Speaker 2:Um, and this guy, he was a you know hiker and his boots were chewing him up, giving him blisters, because you know we're sidehailing, we're not on a trail like he's used to, I guess. Um, and I actually called in a six by seven to him. Um, we hiked probably like two miles just down this trail. I wanted to check out this bowl because I knew there had been elk in and there were some wallows in the bottom.
Speaker 2:And I just hit a cow call and this bull just erupted with like a growl, and so I don't know, I didn't know a ton, so I just bugled, I challenged, bugled the bull as like a little yeah, as like a little as yeah, as like a little raghorn, tried to make it sound really. And then he, but he did not like that, he, uh, he actually lip balled at me, and so when they lip ball, that's them rounding up their cows. That means they're either going to push their cows and run away from you, or they're going to push their cows away and come down and fight you. That way you can't get in between him and his cows.
Speaker 1:Oh, okay.
Speaker 2:Because if you ever get in between a bull and his cows it's dead. Like you can kill it 1,000%. But he pushed his cows up the ridge about 400 yards, bugled where he last. His last bugle was where I guess he left them and I was like, looking at my client, I was like either we're gonna have to take off after him or he's gonna come back. And then, sure enough, about 30 seconds later he bugles me about 200 yards closer and then he just went silent. But like at at this point, um, I could see trees that he rubbed and I had a raking horn. I was raking all the trees. I was like, yeah, like trying to make them know this is, this is my territory now. And, um, he was double bugling, he was not happy, growling, he come down and he was about 80 yards away when he last bugled.
Speaker 2:And then he come right into the hiking trail and he was 34 yards broadside my client's full drop and then he stood there and was looking around for probably five, ten seconds and he turned and walked straight up the trail at my client, where he was my client's full draw, in the middle of the trail, and he's walking straight at him and he stops at. I think it was like 14 yards, and then it turned broadside again and then he was going to go check our wind, which was to the left. The bull had been coming from the right and our thermals were sucking out. There was a creek behind us so it was sucking out that creek bottom. And you know, the bull, I don't know he was broadside there for about five seconds maybe and then he went into the brush and there was no shot and then he went right into our scent cone and boom gone.
Speaker 2:And the whole time I'm like, oh my gosh, I'm gonna be the first kill of the year, like and this is a massive bull, I'm like I'm just waiting for the, for the bow to go off and hear the flack, but guy never shot, I don't know which. You see that a lot with guys is they freeze up. And my philosophy I guess you could call it on it is we always said there's killers and there's hunters, and the killers kill and the hunters hunt. And I think that was the situation Because you know, like we would have Am clients, uh, that would come out and hunt and they nothing gets past them, they don't freeze up, they, they kill stuff and that you can usually tell you know with guys, as soon as you get them, you'll be like, okay, this guy's gonna kill something and this guy's gonna, really it's gonna. It's gonna be tough if this guy gets a shot, you know, because, yeah, I don't know what it is I don't know, guides, intuition, but that's neat.
Speaker 1:I've heard that before about the almish. Actually I've heard they're like when they go to hunt they're, they're getting something yeah, they don't care.
Speaker 2:Yeah, they do not care so I mean, that's wild.
Speaker 1:So your first ever guided hunt for elk you had, you didn't just have any old client, you had a guy that was hunting bow too. Yeah, yeah, that's, yeah, even more difficult yeah, yeah, yeah, I've actually become a.
Speaker 2:That's actually my bread and butter, usually archery elk hunting. Okay, I'm not big on. I'm not big on the rifle hunting, I think, because I grew up turkey hunting. That's what they all say. All the outfitters here in the west say they would rather train a guy from the east that was a turkey hunter on elk and train a guy that grew up there on elk and because he tries to follow what his grandpa said and he knows better type of deal. But if you're from the east and the outfitter takes you from there, you got all the experience from calling setups on turkeys and then they can implement it and turn it into elk hunting and usually that's the best elk hunters in the country is your eastern turkey hunters that they can morph into an elk hunter really huh, that's interesting now so I know I'm going on some turkey hunts this spring and I'm quite excited, first time I know.
Speaker 1:One big thing I've been told is that turkeys have incredible eyesight. Does that like?
Speaker 2:do elk rely on their eyes quite a lot too, or more their nose so you can fool elk's eyes and his ears, but he won't never fool his nose, right they. If you don't got the wind right, it's not happening. And yeah, that was a big thing. Uh, to learn too, I mean. Obviously I knew I needed to play the wind, but it seemed like all the times I would call an elk especially the older they they would always wind check you first. They always run downwind. So I kind of started making different setups.
Speaker 2:You know, because you can hear the elk coming, they're not quiet walking through the woods, they don't. Sometimes they'll sneak in. It's crazy how quiet they can be if they want to be. But usually they come through and you can hear twigs snapping and they're just like blowing through the brush. And you can come hear them coming from like 150 yards away, okay, and then I can be like you know, hey, get over here, over here. Or you know, if the bull's bugling, you know two, three hundred yards away, I'm like, hey, if he's going to come in, this is where you need to be, because I can maneuver myself on the other side of the client to put the client in between me and the bull and then also factor in the wind. So say if the wind was blowing down, uh, that bull's going to try to come below my my calls to try to win. Check to see if I'm a bull or a hunter. Okay, so I can put my client in the right place to shoot it whenever it comes by to get the win.
Speaker 1:Yeah, that makes sense. Here's a question for you then, walker Do you believe in all the scent eliminator stuff, clothings, all that?
Speaker 2:so. So this is interesting. I grew up you know I would, I would spray down whatever, yeah, but out here you're hiking so much it doesn't matter what you smell like, because you're going to smell like sweat in about 30 minutes anyways. Um, all you can do is play the wind because you even if if you could have the best scent eliminator is you're a living human being, so you're gonna constantly be producing scent and they're gonna smell you either way. But, um, I actually, uh, there was a I think it was a podcast a guy did and he he brought up like hounds, you know, hunting hounds, dogs, um, and then deer and elk and bear, and he compared there's something in the nose that you can compare how good it can smell.
Speaker 2:I don't remember exactly but scent receptacles, I think, something like yeah, it was like a hundred times what a hound dog can smell is, yeah, what a deer elk can smell and I'm like, yeah, there's no way you're gonna beat its nose, like I don't care what you put on yourself I agree completely.
Speaker 1:I just wanted to see. I have this argument with friends and stuff from time to time. I think it's just a gimmick, like you said. I forget how many more times powerful a deer's nose is compared to a bloodhound, like you're not fooling it. I just wanted to see what you thought, though. Hunting them.
Speaker 2:Right, I've seen bears have winded me 400 yards away. Yeah, so it's like you know.
Speaker 1:Yeah, yeah, no, exactly. Um, it's interesting. So, like Morel, like you're saying, yeah, just trying to keep a high, like all you know, just one more ridge to go, like we're almost there. Are you kind of doing that the whole time with some people?
Speaker 2:Yeah, some guys, they just a a lot of guys. It seems like to me they have the physicality, like they have the physical ability to do it, but they do not. They can't keep the mental there. So if you can get guys that you can get to overcome you know, because obviously usually what it is. It's so weird because your first mile you are hurting, I don't know what it is. It's so weird because your first mile you are hurting, I don't know what it is.
Speaker 2:Your body is like trying to acclimate is what I call it. But after the first mile of hiking it seems like which I've talked to guys about this, like other guides, we talk about it all the time After the first mile it's like your body gets acclimated, which everybody just calls it a second wind mile. It's like your body gets acclimated, which everybody just calls it a second wind. But I think your body just gets acclimated to what it's working, what you should be doing, because you know, even like working out or whatever it seems like after. I guess it could just be called a warm-up. Once your body's warmed up, then yeah, you kind of just go. It's not that big of a deal because usually the first mile is miserable. Your body's hurting, your legs are burning, you're sweating, you're out of breath, and then it's like, all of a sudden, that switch flips and you're good to go yeah, no, that that makes sense.
Speaker 1:Uh, good question too about uh, because I might be going on a hunt this fall with uh in the mountains. Um, what? What kind of boots are you if somebody, if a client, calls you before they come out and they're like I don't have a pair of boots yet, obviously wear them quite a bit before they come on the hunt with you, but what kind of boots are you recommending, like something waterproof, hikers, that combination but what? Brand.
Speaker 2:Personally so. Schnee boots I think they're out of Bozeman, montana. They give guides 50 off. So I I my first year coming out. I actually had christy boots and then I switched to shnaes because christy only gives 25 off and we try to support the companies that support us type of deal. But this I loved. I had their, their granite, and then I had their better two. They were great boots, um, but this year, well, yeah, this year actually got their mission boot and I hated them. I've loved every boot I've had from them, but this year that boot it it uh, the first week I wore it in archery season because, like, I'll wear it like running dogs and bear season kind of like just getting my boots kind of broken all summer for elk reason yeah and the first week of elk season the thread on the back completely come apart and I had blisters.
Speaker 2:So bad because that hole was it made, the, that fabric, leather, go inwards yeah and it rubbed the back of my my feet so bad and I had blisters on the back of my feet and made me miserable. And then they wouldn't they actually didn't replace them, uh, for some reason, I don't know why. Um, yeah, that kind of made me mad, which I hate to talk bad on them because they've made me phenomenal boots, you know, but that I don't know what it was with that pair of boots, the thread just like come undone, and I mean the hole was probably, I don't know, inch and a half by inch and a half big. Oh, big enough, yeah, yeah, so like you know they're 500 booth.
Speaker 1:They should stand behind their product.
Speaker 2:Yeah, absolutely yeah, but this year I think I'm going to go back to crispies. Um, personally, I think crispies are the most comfortable boot there is. Um, but the schnee's seem to be a little bit more waterproof, just because the schnee's are kind of more one piece of leather rather than the crispies are a couple pieces of leather. Okay, yeah, um, but kenna trex I've heard a lot of good things about kenna trex. Kind of well, some people don't like them, some people like them. I think it's kind of just a Chevy Ford type of deal. Oh yeah, yeah, any of those three brands, you'll be just fine.
Speaker 1:Okay, no, I was curious, especially somebody that spends as much time in them as you do. You would definitely be what I consider an expert to know.
Speaker 2:You know what pair of boots, yeah what I consider an expert to know you know what pair of boots.
Speaker 1:Yeah, yeah, for sure. So another thing with your bull, the elk, hunting. So is it normal, like so one bull will have a whole group of cows just to himself and he'll keep the other bulls away, and like how many would be in that group? Roughly, or it depends on the area.
Speaker 2:So yeah, it kind of actually depends on the area. So where we're at in the northwest it's so thick that we've talked about this before. So if you go over to like bozeman or somewhere where it's real open, you'll see a bull so that's called a herd bull. That's usually the biggest, that's the dominant bull. He'll have several cows with them and then you'll have satellite bulls and then, like your little raghorn bulls that come in they'll try to steal a cow away or breed one or whatever. Um, but over there you'll see herd bulls with 60 cows, 30 cows, 40 cows, but over here I think the most we've ever seen in the woods is like 12 cows with the bull, because I we think they just can't keep track of them because you can only see 30 yards and yeah, so it's kind of hard for him to keep track of them.
Speaker 2:If he did have that many another, you know, a satellite bull is going to come right through there and steal half of them real quick yeah, no, that makes sense.
Speaker 1:So yeah, kind of curious about that. The thicker it is, the less cows the bull would be in charge of.
Speaker 1:Yeah yeah, yeah, that's interesting. Yeah, I can't believe you're first guided elk hunt and you're new to it and you've got a guy shooting a bow. I mean it just makes it that much harder. You can tell you're a bull rider, I guess, because just gritty and tough, because were the outfitters that you were working for were they kind of impressed? You know, you've got this kid from Pennsylvania, just doesn't know. Anybody comes out here and says you know, I want to hunt, I want to guide for elk, and you're just running up and down the mountains, just learning the terrain and all that. I mean it shows a lot of initiative really.
Speaker 2:Yeah, yeah for sure. So really yeah, yeah for sure. I uh. So this is kind of funny. The outfitter that I had worked for they were actually the guy was from pennsylvania too, and he grew up like really really around the area I grew up in. So it's kind of interesting. Yeah, but he's been doing it for 20 years and he actually left the summer after high school as well, when he was 18.
Speaker 1:Oh, that's. Neat, Small world, really small.
Speaker 2:Yeah, and he actually rode bulls as well and he actually owned bucking bulls for a while. Oh, that's kind of interesting. But yeah, my first year guiding was his first year owning an outfit.
Speaker 1:Okay, so yeah, that's neat. Are you know both coming up together in that sense with you know different areas of the business? Yeah, yeah um, yeah, that's really cool. So, uh, now you know I want to get into. Um, you know what you and I both love the most the, uh, the hound hunting. So, uh, you run, you're on mountain lion and you Bears, but your start was you started with Beagles in Pennsylvania.
Speaker 2:Yep, yep, yeah, I actually. I always wanted a coon dog or whatever, which I don't know if that started with, you know, watching that show, the Mountain Men or whatever, that rich guy on there he would run mountain vines, um, on that show. I thought that was awesome, um, and I never was allowed to have a coon dog. So, but my dad's brother and my mom's brother, dad's brother and my mom's brother, they both had two or not coon dogs, they had rabbit dogs, beagles, and you know I don't know. I just thought that was cool too, but something about coon hunting, I don't know whatever. But yeah, rabbits, I.
Speaker 2:I ended up my one uncle got out of rabbit dogs and he had one, a one-year-old or a two-year-old beagle, and he called, or no, his wife called my mom and was like, hey, does Walker want a beagle or whatever. You know she started on rabbits this and that I was just like please, please, please. They were pretty much like, yeah, I mean you promised to take care of it. Then whatever, just went from there. I hunted all the time. I can just remember every day I would get off school pretty much in the wintertime. I would have the dogs and go, because where I lived at the time, I could walk right across the road and then about 200 yards down, there's a patch of timber that's loaded with rabbits, and every day, as soon as I got off the school bus, I didn't care if I had homework or not. I wouldn't do it. I would just go up and get the dog and the 20-gauge and run across the road until dark pretty much.
Speaker 1:Yeah, it's a pilot fun. I love running mines. Do you guys have? Uh, is it cottontail or snowshoe hair out there? Do you guys have? I know some areas have both yeah, so some areas have both.
Speaker 2:Where I was at, I don't think I ever seen snowshoe. There have been rumors, like you know, that there were some, but I never seen one. It was all cottontail.
Speaker 1:Okay, yeah, they're. Uh, they're smaller. Like we have snowshoe hare and we run them, They'll run really big but they won't burrow. I guess sometimes with the cottontail they'll. They'll run so long and then they'll just burrow. Yeah, Yep, Try to get them before that. Uh, so then, yes, you started with the beagles, never had the coonhound, and then so was it. You got into the big hounds once you moved and were working for that outfitter.
Speaker 2:Yeah, so my first year, it was my first or second year, or no, it was my second year because so they in the area I was at they wouldn't let you hunt mountain lions with dogs unless you drew the tag. And we got a new biologist and he opened it up. He was like we got way too many of these things. He opened it up. So then the outfitter was able to just do lion hunts over the counter on a quota tag and the first year I think they allowed 14 or 15 lions to get killed.
Speaker 2:But yeah, I went and I absolutely loved it. I was like this is awesome, like I'm definitely getting the dog for sure. And yeah, pretty much that was that I I helped to guide those lion hunts, um all that December. And then I actually right at the towards the end of those lion hunts, um all that december, and then I actually right at the towards the end of those lion hunts, I met my girlfriend and she had grew up hound hunting and her dad had hounds and everything else and yeah, then I was pretty much just like, yeah, I'm getting a, getting a hound as soon as I'm able to. And then it was was about six or seven months and I went and picked up two hound dog puppies and I guess it's history from there.
Speaker 1:What breed did you go with?
Speaker 2:So I actually got a red bone from down Nez Perce, idaho way, okay. And then I got a plot walk across and that seems to be a lot of guys around here. That's their breed, because they're like, you know, he's got the grittiness of the plot, but he's as smart as a walker. You know, guys out here seem to be real about the, what color it is and what breed does this or whatever, which it holds some fruit. But I mean there's good, bad and all of it.
Speaker 1:So yeah, uh, you don't see a lot of red bones I don't anyways, in the pictures on um, on lions, like are they a common breed out there or no?
Speaker 2:they uh they actually are pretty. They're probably the least popular breed, I would say, cause usually guys have walkers or plots and that's your two, you know most popular. And then the next would be your ticks. A lot of guys out here like like the English dogs and blue ticks. Um, I've only, I think I only know two guys, it's red bones.
Speaker 1:Oh, okay, yeah, and one guy only has one. Is there much too for black and tan, because those seem to be somewhat of a popular line dog in areas, I guess.
Speaker 2:Yeah, I'd say they're probably more popular than red bones. I think they're real popular, I guess really everywhere out here. But I guess it's probably just the same scenario. They're not as popular as everything else. My girlfriend's dad actually has. He used to have two really really good black and tans from the stories I hear and then he actually just picked up two puppies. He sold the two black and tans that he had to guy over in Montana and, uh, it had puppies and he got two out of them. So that was pretty interesting.
Speaker 1:Yeah, yeah, Um, and then we we talked on the phone before you're telling me how cool it was. So I mean, the first time you go to a tree and see a lion in it, I mean, what's it like seeing these huge cats for the first time?
Speaker 2:Yeah, it was pretty interesting, it was very cool, but it was just crazy, because they're real like. They don't like to let nothing behind them or beside them, they like try to keep everything in front of them. But they always got their eyes locked on you. So it's like I'm just thinking. I'm like man, this thing could just jump out of here and kill me if I wanted to yeah it's really cool will they?
Speaker 1:I mean, do they? I've seen video stuff where they will jump out of the tree like a bear will you know when it's treed by hand stuff. But will they ever heard of them coming at somebody or no, they don't want to.
Speaker 2:I, I haven't, um, I've seen them. Like I've seen videos of guys. I've heard of guys getting jumped on, but that's just the line jumping out of the tree. It wasn't like trying to hurt them, okay, all right. Um, yeah, they just are. Usually the line will jump down like downhill. So, like that was something I learned pretty quick was with clients and stuff. I'm like you know, get above it, which that's really with anything, even with wounded game. You don't want to come below it because you don't want it to run uphill.
Speaker 1:Yeah, you would always want it to run down, yeah yeah, so you were saying too, um, we were talking about like bobcat or still, you find harder to hunt than um, than mountain lion, because I've heard that, I've heard bobcats the hardest thing to tree in north america. But you'd think some people think, well, why is that? Wouldn't a mountain lion be harder?
Speaker 2:but yeah, so. So yeah, lions really aren't that hard to catch. If we're going to be honest, um, there's a huge difference between a bobcat dog and a and a lion dog, um, but yeah, actually what it is is the the lions have. Their lungs are, I think it's like a little bit bigger than a bobcat's lungs, but they have all that muscle mass, so their body can't produce enough oxygen, uh, to their muscles to keep them going forever. Usually, once the lion's jumped, it's not but 600 to 800 yards in its tree usually.
Speaker 1:Really, it's that quick.
Speaker 2:Does it?
Speaker 1:vary. Yeah, that's quick, even bear. I've heard bear marathon runners, but even tagging along on bear hunts with hounds. Oh yeah, the bears can be all day easy.
Speaker 2:Yeah yeah, bears are, yeah, bears. You don't never turn out on one unless you plan on being there all day. Yeah, making some. Yeah, sometimes they bears will tree in 600 yards, and sometimes you're on a 10-hour race for 20 miles. Yeah, you never catch it.
Speaker 1:So the cats you said they almost are trained in your area to tree a little quicker because they're used to wolves coming at them. And I didn't know. But you were saying, like the wolves they'll hunt down and kill lions.
Speaker 2:Yeah, wow, hunt down and kill lions, yeah, so. So that's kind of a a thing we've talked about before too was, uh, like the. We wonder, you know, with wolf pressure, does that make lions tree faster? Um, cause, you know, if lions getting run by a wolf, it's just used to popping up and then the wolf is like, okay, whatever, it leaves him alone. So we're like, you know, if we're in an area that that's happening and you know we run a lion with dogs, is that why it's streaming faster too, or or you know what's going on? But yeah, I've, I actually was out I think it was about a month ago and I found a big tom track and there was actually a wolf following it which I walked the track out for probably a mile and a half and the wolf never left it and I was like, okay, I'm not turning out in this area anyway.
Speaker 2:So I was just hoping the wolf left it and then I could follow the track a few miles out or something where maybe the wolf wouldn't get it, cause it was a pretty, pretty fresh lion track. I know some guys will turn out on my tracks in wolf areas If it's like super, super hot, cause they know it'll tree like right then and there, but I don't know that makes me really nervous.
Speaker 1:Not worth the risk. No, I mean one-on-one the wolf.
Speaker 2:Take on a lion, a single wolf a single wolf, a big tom would kill it all day long, yeah, but you know two wolves or three wolves, that lion's in trouble oh yeah, wow gee.
Speaker 1:So I mean the wolf, is it quite an issue where you're at the wolves?
Speaker 2:so where I'm at right now it kind of depends where you go, because if you go south of the reservoir it's not really a big problem, but if you go north of the reservoir it's a big deal. And then I was hunting over in Idaho there with a buddy and it was like everywhere we went there was wolf tracks. Like every single drainage there was wolf tracks. It was like how is a guy even supposed to hound hunt around here Like man I know over in Missoula way it's been a problem. I got some buddies over there that are constantly fighting with the wolves.
Speaker 1:Yeah, I mean I hear luckily I don't have to deal with it here running my hounds and stuff, but yeah I hear it is quite an issue. I mean the wolves will specifically hunt down the hounds that they hear.
Speaker 2:Yeah, yep, yep. They hear a pack of hounds. They'll come right in their tree and kill the dogs. And then you just lost your last five, ten years of work you put into all these dogs, because you can't really get on Amazon and order a four-year-old, finished dog.
Speaker 1:Yeah, no the wolves. Hopefully politics and stuff comes to the rescue a little bit more and they can kind of get a handle on that in a lot of areas.
Speaker 2:Yeah, yeah, I know Washington's really really bad with the wolves. Um, they really need to do something about that. Really, the only thing you could that's worth hunting in washington is the fall bear season, which nobody cares to do. That, yeah, and their turkeys, but it ain't gonna be much longer and they probably won't have turkeys either. Because, like it is insane, I I went over there and hunted this year. We hunted three days, hiked about 10 miles every single day, and I don't even remember if we've seen a deer. I don't think we've even seen a deer. We actually cut a grizzly sow, grizzly with a cub. That's the only tracks we cut, besides, I think, one set of deer tracks.
Speaker 1:Yeah, yeah, the wolves are just killing machines, so. But they'll work an area and then, you know, kill everything there that they can. They just keep moving on.
Speaker 2:Yeah, yeah, that's what they do. There was the area that I guide in Montana. They were telling me I think it was four or five years ago. There's this one spot that I was actually looking at. I wanted to go check out and I was asking the other guides about it. They were like, yeah, that used to be really good About five years ago. Ago. We went through there and the wolves that had killed 13 elk wow yeah like right on this ridge and just left them there oh, they didn't even eat it, really yeah huh, so they'll, they'll kill just just to kill.
Speaker 1:I've heard that.
Speaker 2:I heard they're just such a ferocious killing machine that they just, they'll just do it just because they can yeah, and I I feel really bad for colorado right now, because colorado actually has some really really good hunting, especially for mule deer, and they just drop them five wolves there and it ain't going to be long and they're going to be in the same shape yeah, I, yeah, I'm a hundred percent against wolves.
Speaker 1:Um, yeah, I don't, I don't know. Us hunters can manage the, the ecosystem, I think far superior and putting money back into the economy and into conservation. All that a lot better than a pack of wolves.
Speaker 2:Yeah, 100%. You know. All it is is people are trying to make laws and stuff like that based off of feelings rather than facts is what it is.
Speaker 1:Yeah, yeah, you know, you see those T-shirts and everything you know people have wolves on them and this and that they make them look like such a great majestic animal. And I mean they are in managed, you know areas and stuff, but I mean I don't think people realize how just vicious they are.
Speaker 2:Yeah, they can be. Yeah, they're pretty devastating to the I.
Speaker 1:Uh, I guess prey animals in every area yeah, you know, and farmers and stuff included with you know, the cows and sheep and all that, yeah, it's uh. Yeah, I don't know. Yeah, I'm not a fan, but, um, I want to talk to you. It was neat so you had that picture up. Uh, about the problem cougar hunt, you had a guy out on a good successful hunt.
Speaker 2:Yeah, that was actually the day we found that lion track with a wolf following it and we had left. And then we actually found this other track. It was a female, female lion. I don't like to kill females ever. Um, it's kind of a thing you know a lot of people are like it's a lion, kill it type of deal. But once I got which that's kind of the mentality I had as an elk hunter but once I had hounds and you know, I kind of got introduced to the hound world. That's like the golden rule you do not kill females, female lions, or you'll pretty much be banned from the hound hunting community, which I mean it's kind of a good thing.
Speaker 2:Um, yeah yeah, because which in idaho? They don't. They don't have a quota or nothing. Every single guy in idaho can have two lion tags and you know, somebody comes in with a pack of dogs. That's new. They don't know nothing and they're taking every single buddy they know that has a lion tag. That's not real good no so a lot of guys.
Speaker 2:They just catch them and let them go, which I really don't. Have a desire to kill a lion for the rest of my life, unless it's a really big tom. I'd like to shoot a real big one with my bow. Yeah, so this female lion. It was actually killing an old lady's chickens and goats and it killed her daughter's dog, which her daughter's her neighbor dog was her daughter's neighbor and we uh turned out on it and it run through their property and then it got up on some state and then it run through I don't even know how many other people's properties, but every single person was just like please kill this thing, like it's been harassing us, it's been harassing everybody in this little neighborhood.
Speaker 2:It had to go and we're like, yeah, yeah, it was time for it to go, because, I mean, they're like pretty much the game department won't do anything and if they do, they're just going to kill it. It's going to go away.
Speaker 2:So I would rather you know the guy that killed it with me yeah he's gonna going to make a rug out of it, he's going to eat it. All that stuff it's not going to go to waste. But yeah, the first time it treed was 30 yards behind somebody's house. So that was pretty interesting and I'm just thinking I'm like man, please, please, don't let this person be a jerk. Yeah, let them be normal. Yeah, exactly, don't let it person be a jerk. Yeah, let them be normal. Yeah, exactly, don't let it be a cat lover.
Speaker 2:We're in a pretty rural place and everybody around here is kind of pro-hound hunting because it's kind of like a culture in this area. Everybody knows what a hound box is and all that stuff, so they think it's pretty cool, so it's pretty nice. Um, but yeah, then it bailed out of that tree as soon as I come through the brush, which I was trying to be quiet, because sometimes them cats will jump out. As soon as you uh start getting close, they hear some brush breaking or something and they jump out. I was like, all right, I've got to be quiet. I went about 10 more yards and I actually tripped on a little limb and it broke and then it jumped out and ran away. But yeah, they got it caught and then uh got rid of it yes, sir.
Speaker 1:So everyone was uh, and the area was pretty happy. All the locals were like you know, good job that was. I mean you said you're you don't normally shoot females, but I mean obviously that one. You know that was an issue, and if it's brave enough to be taking people's livestock and even pets right in their yard, then I mean what's to say yeah, or attack a human?
Speaker 2:right, exactly, and that was the thing was. So it was like a, a finger ridge and there's houses all over it and then it goes down to like the road uh, like the public road and there's houses all around down there and it was cleaned down behind people's houses along that county road and then it come up onto that ridge and for some reason every time the cat jumped three times for treat it and then it would jump and then treat it again. It jumped and treed jumped and then treat, and every single time it would jump, it would make a and for some reason it didn't want to leave that ridge. I think it had a kill or something up there. So that was like it's. The females don't have a huge home territory Like Tom's. They'll go 10 miles just hunting, but females kind of stay in the same little area. So that thing was kind of just probably hanging out up there on that ridge and then, as soon as it ran out of food, go down and collect somebody's dog or chicken, right, yeah, and head back up there.
Speaker 1:So it didn't seem to have a real I mean, besides you guys coming into the tree and it jumping, but I mean if it's that close to people's houses and all that, it really wasn't too scared.
Speaker 2:No, no, not at all. Uh, the one guy he said he had trail cam pictures of a couple different lions, um, but just within the last month, so that probably isn't even the only one. I think that was probably that one's home range, and then, you know, maybe one or two other ones might have been coming through here and there, but they said they had problems with bears too. Um, yeah, pretty much that line was coming becoming a real big problem for him, um, and the guy he actually, so it was like a it's a private drive road that goes up this mountain, I guess. And and the guy actually picked us up.
Speaker 2:I was walking down the road, uh, with one of my puppies and the dogs had just crossed and he was like, what are you doing? Blah, blah. And I was like we got a lion race up here, uh, and he was like, all right, I'll run you up there real quick. And he me and my puppy just got in his truck and he, he hunted with us the rest of the day. He was, he wanted to make sure this thing died. That's pretty cool. Yeah, yeah, yeah. Everybody caught word up there of that little community. They're like awesome, they're all rooting for you, yeah, yeah.
Speaker 1:Yeah, that's great. Uh, you know, walker, I can't thank you enough for for coming on the podcast. You're you're an interesting guy. Um, definitely hope to have you on again, but who is, uh, if someone wants to check you out and all that who's the outfitter that you work for?
Speaker 2:so I actually work for a couple different outfitters, um, so I worked for wayne hill outfitting. Wayne hill outfitting in Knox and Montana that's where I do all my elk hunting and fall hunts. And then I work for Clark Fork Outfitters in Idaho. I do some bear hunts with them every year and I think I have one rifle elk hunt with them this year because the way the seasons lay out there's like a two-week break and I'll go over and guide over there and then I do a little bit. I do the lion hunts with lion's head outfitters up in Bonners Ferry, idaho, and then me myself. I do I am actually able to. I have my own outfitter, uh, it's called Blackwoods Outfitters. Um, it's just, uh, we just do turkey hunts cause I don't have any of the forest service permits or nothing. So but I'm able to guide in Washington and, uh, on private land in Idaho.
Speaker 2:So okay, yeah, that's awesome and uh, it's, it's neat to see all that and you know on your Instagram and everything.
Speaker 1:Um, yeah, I see that you're yeah, you're a big turkey hunter and I want to talk to you about that another time too. Yeah, yeah, for sure, That'd be awesome.
Speaker 2:Yeah, all right, Well thanks, and uh, you know, happy hunting. Yeah Thanks, have a good one you too.