Hunts On Outfitting Podcast
Stories! As hunters and outdoors people that seems to be a common thing we all have lots of. Join your amateur guide and host on this channel Ken as he gets tales from guys and gals. Chasing that trophy buck for years to an entertaining morning on the duck pond, comedian ones, to interesting that's what you are going to hear. Also along with some general hunting discussions from time to time but making sure to leave political talks out of it. Don't take this too serious as we sure don't! If you enjoy this at all or find it fun to listen to, we really appreciate if you would subscribe and leave a review. Thanks for. checking us out! We are also on fb as Hunts on outfitting, and instagram. We are on YouTube as Hunts on outfitting podcast.
Hunts On Outfitting Podcast
Tracks, Trails, And Tails: When Hunters Need A Canine Hero
Lindsay Ware takes us deep into the remarkable world of professional game recovery with tracking dogs, revealing the intricate relationship between hunter, handler, and canine that ensures ethical hunting outcomes. As one of Maine's busiest wildlife trackers, Lindsay shares why she chose wire-haired dachshunds over larger breeds for their maneuverability in thick terrain and impressive stamina during long tracking days.
The conversation dispels common misconceptions about how tracking dogs work. Far from simply following blood, these extraordinary animals use every available scent marker - interdigital gland secretions, body odor, breath traces, disturbed vegetation, and the distinctive smell of stressed animals. When blood trails fade or rain washes evidence away, these additional scent sources become crucial to successful recovery.
Lindsay provides fascinating insights into wounded animal behavior that few hunters ever witness. The sophisticated "J-hook" maneuver where animals circle back to observe their trail, strategic use of water crossings to slow pursuers, and the surprising terrain challenges animals will navigate despite injuries all demonstrate wildlife's remarkable adaptability. She partially debunks the "wounded animals always head to water" myth while explaining the specific circumstances when water entry actually occurs.
Perhaps most valuable are the practical tips for hunters facing the distressing situation of an uncertain hit. Lindsay explains why calling professional help early before contaminating the scene with multiple searchers dramatically increases recovery chances. Her stories of close calls with wounded moose highlight the dangers trackers sometimes face, while the emotional relief of successful recovery underscores why this work matters so deeply to the hunting community.
For anyone who values ethical hunting practices and wildlife conservation, this episode offers a rare glimpse into the specialized world of tracking that combines ancient canine instincts with modern training techniques to honor our responsibility to the animals we hunt.
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this is hunts on outfitting podcast. I'm your host and rookie guide, ken meyer. I love everything hunting the outdoors and all things associated with it, from stories-tos. You'll find it here. Welcome to the podcast. Hey, thanks for tuning in.
Speaker 1:This week we are talking about something very near and dear to us hunters, and that's finding and recovering our game. It's great if whatever you shoot drops dead in its tracks, but what if it doesn't? What if there isn't much blood to follow and darkness is approaching and then off in the distance, you see some rain clouds closing in? Well, if you made a call to a skilled animal recovery team, like our guest today, lindsay Ware, then you can be assured you're in good hands. This episode I really learned a lot. Lindsay does an excellent job explaining what her and her canine team do and share some great stories.
Speaker 1:In this episode we're going to be talking about some hard-working dogs that you can trust will do their absolute best to find your animal. But we need to always make sure we are feeding our dogs the best Well. With Nook Shook Dog Food, you can trust that you are. This is the world's highest energy dog food and it's all made in a strict, non-gmo factory With trusted resellers all over Canada and the United States. If you go on their website and put in your area, it will show you where someone sells it near you. Yeah, lindsay, I mean thanks for taking my call and I'm really excited to learn about what you do. But first you know, how did you? I mean, what was your start in the outdoors? Did you hunt before, or have you had time to hunt now that you're into the big game, tracking, I mean?
Speaker 2:Yeah, so I'm one of those people that grew up with it. I grew up in a hunting family and, very outdoorsy, I did hunt. I used to hunt and you kind of hit the nail on the head, implying that it's possible I might not hunt anymore because I tracked so much, and that's totally true. So I found that my place in hunting is and my passion is really working with the dogs and tracking, and while I'm still, of course, a big part of the hunting community, I myself that's not really where my place is anymore and it's not where my passion is anymore. It's really about doing the tracking piece.
Speaker 1:Yeah, I mean you get to. I mean it must be great when you all these hunters that are, you know they call you up. They're probably so worried, sick to their stomach, like I don't know if I hit it well enough where it is. And then just for you to bring them that relief by finding their game dogs and uh, yeah, I used to sit up when I still hunted.
Speaker 2:I used to sit up in my tree stand and get texts and calls from people and think, like you know, I'm gonna go help them, like I, I'm gonna climb down. I'd rather climb down from the tree stand and and help uh, instead of stay up here and hunt. So, um, yeah, it's a a big part of it is you. You're working with someone who is in a very distressing situation and you're doing everything that you can to try to help them and and to help the wildlife as well. So it's, it's great.
Speaker 1:Right, yeah. So I mean, have you, did you have working dogs before this? Like, where, where did the dogs, the dogs come into all this?
Speaker 2:Blood tracking was actually my introduction to working dogs. That was actually where I got started. Now I do other things with working dogs. I grew up with hunting dogs just in the family and things like that. I also was at about the same time as I was getting into blood tracking I was getting into professionally doing pet dog training and so it kind of all came together for me around the same time. And then, because of my work with blood tracking dogs, I actually got further into working dogs in general and realized because of blood tracking that this is what I wanted to do all the time. I wanted to work with my dogs, not just in the fall, but always.
Speaker 1:Yeah, yeah, absolutely so. How did you? I've seen, you know, videos and pictures from all over North America and beyond of different types and breeds of dogs. What breeds do you use and why did you settle on them?
Speaker 2:Well, I started off with a Labrador and I'm currently using wire-haired dachshunds, or teckles as we call them, and a lot of my decision around working with the dachshunds has to do with my region and the laws in my region.
Speaker 2:So in Maine we're an on-leash tracking state, so we have to have our dogs. I work on a 30-foot leash with my dogs and it is really, you know, it's probably very similar to terrain that you're used to. It's super, super, super thick and there can be some rugged terrain, especially when we're moose and bear tracking and when we have a very large dog just me personally, when I have that large Labrador on a leash and he's like pulling me basically through this terrain, it can be a little difficult for me, and so I just personally kind of like the smaller size dogs and so the dachshunds kind of bring that aspect of it to it. They can pull me over a lot less easily than the Labrador could. And I also worked my original mentor in blood tracking. She is from Germany and she kind of introduced me to these little dogs, so she was an inspiration, for sure. But I kind of fell in love with them and they just suited me really well.
Speaker 1:Okay, yeah, that's neat. Yeah, because the labs. I was surprised. I mean, they have one of the best noses of most any dog, the Beagle's ahead of them and stuff, but they are right up there, even with Coonhounds, which I was surprised about. But the dachshunds, I mean, how big are they? They're what? Would it be? 8, 10 pounds?
Speaker 2:Well, so they're standard-sized dachshunds, so they tend to be the European style working line dachshunds tend to be a little bit longer in the leg and a little bit more athletically built than like a show line dachshund that you'd find like an AKC American dachshund. So they are built a bit more and really surprisingly agile. They're built more for kind of being in the woods, Um, but we also use standard size dachshunds. So I have I've actually happened to have a standard male who's very small, Um, but typically the males of this breed are going to be, uh, 22 pounds and upwards, maybe even as as big as, you know, high twenties.
Speaker 1:Okay, so like um, like a, say like a 15 inch beagle, like that sort of size.
Speaker 2:Yeah, I mean, um, yeah, there's a little bit of variety I have I just laughing because I have this male that just he's, just he's 15 pounds. He's super tiny, um, but but typically, yeah, you're, you're seeing uh, the males ranging from, uh, maybe usually very, very small ones would be more like 20 pounds, and then a little bit up from there, and then the females. You're looking at, my female dachshund is 18 or 19 pounds, so yeah, yeah, so that's kind of.
Speaker 1:Yeah, that sounds like a very easy breed to maneuver around in the woods and not have them, you know, just pulling your arm off the whole time.
Speaker 2:Yeah, I like that.
Speaker 2:You know, physically the way that I track is I'm a high volume tracker, so I try to do a lot and in the fall I am able to rearrange my schedule so that I can mostly do this full time.
Speaker 2:So I need a dog that can really last all day and I can carry them like. I even will carry these dogs out to the starting point and then if we're way in the woods when we end, I can carry them out, and so that's something that I can't do with my Labrador. He has to get all those extra miles on his paws right. So anything that I can do to conserve them, that's really nice to be able to hike them in and hike them out. I'm also I really, when I am tracking, I love analyzing everything and if I can have a dog that I can kind of better spot evidence, with which typically with a dachshund, I'm not like basically just running for my life after this dog, so I can, I'm more likely to be able to spot that tiny little drop of blood, you know, or that tiny little chunk of bone, and I really like that to be able to look at it and analyze it and try to use that to figure out what's going on with the wounded animal.
Speaker 1:Okay, yeah, that makes sense, Since we're talking about the dogs right now too. I mean, what's the training consist of? Do you get them as pups? How do you kind of start them?
Speaker 2:So you mean like when they're puppies.
Speaker 1:Yeah, like just training for the blood tracking. Would you say that most any breed is capable of this?
Speaker 2:Oh yes, like it's really. You know, we have everyone's got their breed preferences, that sort of thing, but it's really about the individual dog and we find that a lot of dogs are able to do it as far as breeds are concerned especially, and then when you look into the hunting breeds and more so, there's very, very many dogs in the hunting breeds that we see doing it.
Speaker 2:But we also see you know herding breeds and things like that as well. It's more about that dog's motivations. It's more about that dog's motivations. So we really want a dog that is highly motivated for the work, has a lot of drive Often that is in the form of prey drive and a dog that is going to be able to be convinced to stick with one particular line.
Speaker 1:Right.
Speaker 2:Right. So a dog that's not going to have kind of a temperament where they're you know, oh, this smells good, oh, this smells good. Oh, this smells good, right. So we want a lot of tenacity from a dog as far as being able to stick to a line, so yeah. But the early training, you know it helps shape that as well, for sure. So it's like a lot of dog related things. You want that combination of good genetics and good natural propensity for the work, but a lot of dedicated training to go into it. And if we can start them young, that's great. We start them really young if we can.
Speaker 1:So so I mean, do you start with drags? I mean, I've always heard um I don't know myths or whatever about how some people say that the dogs and I. I've just heard this. I'm not sure if it's true or not. You could be able to tell me? But if the dogs actually track blood or they're tracking the animals tracks like they're sent on their say like a deer you know from their hooves.
Speaker 2:Yeah, yeah. So the dogs are tracking the animal and they're using they're using anything they can to track that animal, whatever's available. So if the animal is bleeding, animal's bleeding like, for example, if a hunter shoots a deer and there's a very good blood trail but then it rains and so the hunter can't see the blood trail, the dog is still getting a lot of blood odor. So the dog's certainly going to use that blood odor. If there's no blood odor, because there's very little blood hitting the ground, the dog's going to use whatever's available to it. So that's going to be interdigital gland scent. That's going to be some body scent.
Speaker 2:I have my little dogs. You'll see them kind of go up on their hind legs every once in a while and sniff like one branch that's kind of leading out into the trail and that tells me that deer rubbed up against that, that you know pine bough as it walked by. So there'll be body scent there. You know that. We can suspect it that there's some kind of saliva or almost like breath scent. It's really anything the deer is giving off. We're going to also assume that you know there's something happening to the ground when an animal is going across it, so crushed vegetation, things like that, anything that tells the dog that the animal went that way they'll use. It's likely a combination of several things and there's also a suspicion that there's a particular odor. You know that a wounded animal gives off, you can call it, you know, fear, scent or adrenaline or whatever you want to call it, but it's a particular odor of a stressed animal. So it's really really anything that's available to them.
Speaker 1:Okay, yeah, that's interesting. So that kind of clears it up for me. Because, yeah, you'd hear some people say that they don't track the blood, they just track, you know, the animal itself. But you know, that makes sense, like you said, just using whatever they can. So I mean it's yeah, it's kind of that's kind of right, kind of wrong. I guess it's just whatever there is.
Speaker 2:Yes, it's whatever there is, it's likely several things at the same time. And, that being said, when we train dogs, a completely valid way to train a puppy or train a dog is to use blood. You can use just blood when you're training, and the reason for that is because when you're doing a training line, the point is not always to make it as realistic as possible. It's good to try to make it realistic as you can, but our dogs know the difference between a real animal being injured and a training line. The point of a training line is to teach them the process of following their nose to get to a reward. It's so that we can put in challenges that they're likely to see a real animal do, like turns and backtracks and, you know, distractions and things like that.
Speaker 2:It's not always, you know, imperative to make sure that it's going to be an exact copy of the scenario that you're going to encounter when you're tracking because, honestly, it's amazing what these animals do and we're never going to be able to completely mimic all the incredible things. I'm learning every year, different things that animals will do that I've never seen before, right. So the point of training is basically to do the best we can to teach the dog about being to align, about, you know, working out scent problems, ignoring distractions, things like that. So if we just have blood to work with, that's a completely valid way to train. Some people will use deer pose, some people will use blood, some people will use a combination of the two. I know people that didn't have game blood to use and they used beef blood and it worked just fine.
Speaker 1:Okay, huh, yeah, that's that's yeah, that's neat. So when they're tracking, they get to it. Is it like you know? You see some of the, the, the police canines. When they get there, their reward is like playing with the ball or something when they find, when they find the drugs or you know whatever they're after, like playing with the ball or something when they find the drugs or whatever they're after. So is it like that with yours, or the reward is the actual animal itself getting to it?
Speaker 2:My dog's reward is the actual animal itself and typically, I mean, there is a small percentage of people that will use a different type of reward because you got to use whatever the dog's motivated by, right? But, um, I personally look for and like a dog that is intrinsically motivated by finding that animal. It it lets you it really. It's really helpful when the thing that they're trying to find is actually what's motivating them. Yeah, so, so we, you know everyone's different with what they do when they find the animal, but my dogs are allowed to go over to it and you know, I have one that likes to give a little bit of a chew and I have one that just kind of celebrates and wiggles around and, you know, licks it a little bit and then just gets really fired up by all the excitement and, uh, just wants to be with it.
Speaker 1:Um, so yeah, yeah, okay, yeah, that makes sense. Um, so I mean, does it help to? Is there a stronger blood scent depending on the shot placement, like can you see the dogs really fire off down the trail, depending on where the animals hit?
Speaker 2:Yeah, I think, depending on where the animals hit and also how fresh the odor is, or if we ourselves have like the animal has heard us and is, you know, freshly kind of been running off in front of us and they're leaving a lot of fresh adrenaline scent off in front of us and they're leaving a lot of fresh adrenaline spent For the type of wound that they have. That certainly is a very strong belief. Of course, we don't have any actual proof of this because we can't ask the dogs, but when we look at our dog's body language, we believe very strongly that there's differences in odor depending on the wound.
Speaker 1:Okay.
Speaker 2:And it's likely something to do with the dog being able to identify the smell of something that is dead or dying or going, you know, going in the process of dying. You often will hear trackers say, you know, oh, it's a muscle wound. Whatever, it seems to be a non-fatal muscle wound. My dog kind of tracks a little bit less intensely. Uh, they're more likely to. I know with my dogs, especially my older, experienced dogs, if I am tracking something and we're getting all this evidence that it's a non-fatal hit, he'll go forever right. But the second I'm like, okay, this is the time to just leave this deer alone. It's going to survive. The best thing we can do is kind of leave it alone and let it finish clotting up and call this one, and if I pick him up I'd be like, okay, we're done. And he's like, yeah, okay, that's kind of his behavior and his body language that I get. You know, if the animal is dying, in general his body language and intensity is a little bit different. Body language and intensity is a little bit different.
Speaker 2:And if I were, there are some circumstances where we have to leave an animal that's dying because we have to maybe go and get some permission from a landowner, or we have decided that the animal actually needs a little bit more time, so we have to leave and come back, and that's when the dog is going to be incredibly frustrated because I'm pulling him off a dying animal and he knows it.
Speaker 1:They know, yeah, just the predatory instincts. So is there many non-fatal hits where the hunter thinks like no, it's a good shot, and you get there? And you look at the evidence and the dog how it's reacting, you're just like no, and you get there and you look at the evidence and the dog how it's reacting, you're just like no.
Speaker 2:So we do our best to assess everything, both over the phone, when we're interviewing the hunter, and along the track. So there's certainly circumstances where, even over the phone, I'm like, yeah, I'm still going to take it, but I'm like it doesn't sound very fatal. However, I'm not always right about that Right. So I'm just taking information that I get and over the years, you know, I've seen a lot of tracks so I can make a pretty good educated guess. But it's always just an educated guess and I'm never 100% right about these things. So that could be one thing I could found non-fatal. The other thing is that a lot of animals they are hit non-fatally and so, yeah, the hunter often is going to assume they made a fatal shot, because you know, hunters care about the animals and the're.
Speaker 2:The idea of this animal dying out there and not being able to find it is extremely distressing. And so when there is a blood trail, um, or you know an obvious instance where the animal's wounded, they're going to be like, yeah, like we got to find it, it's out there, they're going to assume that it is and that's. I think that's a good assumption that makes it so that you're going to do everything you can to try to find it. But and in reality a pretty high percentage of tracks actually end up with non-fatal wounds or the non-fatally hit animal. And that's just because there are actually a lot of non-fatal places hit an animal. But part of what we do is kind of provide that information and so we can provide a lot of peace of mind and track the animal way further than we could with our eyes in order to figure out that, oh, this animal's still going.
Speaker 1:Okay, yeah. Yeah, I was going to ask this might ruffle some feathers, I don't know, but do you go to more bow or gun recoveries.
Speaker 2:Oh, so that's a question that I get a lot, so I go to more gun track.
Speaker 1:Really.
Speaker 2:I do, and the reason now is where I live there are way more gun hunters than there are archery hunters. Okay, yeah, so just by percentage wise I'm going to. I'm way busier in gun season than I am in archery season. Yeah, so as far as the proportion of archery hits that end up needing a tracking dog versus the proportion of gun hits that end up needing a track, I don't know, I don't know that. Information, information. I just know that number-wise not percentage-wise, but number-wise I take way more gun-related tracks than archery, right, yeah, that makes sense.
Speaker 1:That that's, you know, what the majority of people are hunting with. And I find too, I mean, if the animal takes off, bow hunters normally know just to leave it, you know, because it's rare that they drop right then and there. So, yeah, I mean, and then most you know, modern day broadheads and stuff are usually leaving quite a, quite a blood trail. But I mean a lot, do get away.
Speaker 2:Yeah, we do. I have always noticed that with bow hunters, where bow hunters are used to having to track, where gun hunters do have had to sometimes, but they also have experiences where the animal's right there, uh, whereas the bow hunters are, you know they're sometimes more equipped, they've got like their tracking flagging tape and you know they're just that's part more of their routine.
Speaker 1:Yeah.
Speaker 2:Um. So it is kind of interesting working with all different hunters.
Speaker 1:Yeah, yeah, it would be Well speaking about that. So I saw one of your posts there. You're saying that you know a hunter. The scent line was handled well by the hunter. So what do you? What's that mean exactly?
Speaker 2:So when we say that a scent line has been handled or a situation has been handled well by a hunter, it means a few things. It means, first, that they aren't calling us two or three days later, that they called us pretty soon into realizing that they were going to need some assistance. Also, that they were really careful to not step in the track of a deer. You know, potentially stepping in blood, that sort of thing. Carefully flagging is another way to handle a track really well. If they have a really sparse blood trail, every time they would find a spot. They would put some toilet paper up in a tree or put some flagging tape up or something like that up in the tree or put some plugging tape up or something like that. And then the biggest way that I would say somebody handling a track well would be to call me before they had invited like 10 of their friends out there to do a grid search. And the reason for that is because whenever we're disturbing an area, so we're creating tons of ground disturbance that's going to confuse the dog because of all the crushed vegetation everywhere. People are going to be stepping in the deer's odor, in the deer's blood, and then they're going to be gritting that everywhere. So it's like an ink stamp on a clean piece of paper and you're just stamping blood particles then all over the woods, that sort of thing. So you know, obviously we want people to look for their, their animals first, but how you do that makes a big difference on how difficult it is for us and how difficult it is for the dog.
Speaker 2:I have a really experienced dog that after many years of work he really can do wonders on a contaminated track. But it's going to take hours. I mean, it's going to take me have to walk everywhere where everybody went and just sort it out and map it out and circle, circle, circle, circle, and that reduces the number of other tracks that day that I can take and help other people. So, uh, so yeah, so that makes sense that you would have seen me on social media praising somebody for handling a lot, cause that's what we, what this would encourage people to do to try to maximize, you know, our time and our efforts so they can help as many people as possible and, honestly, just increase the chances of success. Because you're going to reduce the more you contaminate and grid, search and track blood everywhere. There's also a possibility that the dog just will not have success with the track.
Speaker 1:Yeah, and, like you're saying too, I imagine it makes it a lot harder. If you know, a guy shoots a deer and he calls all his hunting buddies out and we've done that and say what someone else had just finished, you know, uh, gutting their deer and they stepped in the guts and all that. And then they come out there and they're tramping through the woods. Imagine the dog. It, you know, really difficult on them.
Speaker 2:Yeah, it's just a real, it's a real challenge for them, for sure.
Speaker 2:And uh, yeah, we just want, whenever we make suggestions like this or make posts like that, talking about people handling tract wells, the whole intent is to make it so that the hunter can get their deer, or can get their, their, their moose, or whatever it may be like we, you know, whenever we talk to hunters about this stuff, it's not to you to bug them about their practices, it's just to be like, hey, if you do it like this, then there's a much higher chance that we're going to have a big celebration at the end of this, versus just more disappointment.
Speaker 2:And even if the dogs can work through it which a good know, a good dog can it's just that dogs cooked, we're cooked for the day, you know. And then you know the people that needed our help later in the day. They either I've got to wait until tomorrow or, you know, overnight something could happen to the deer, um, or we just can't help them at all. And so we, we try to educate folks, to try to maximize the use of the dogs and to maximize how many people we can help.
Speaker 1:Yeah, no, that, that, uh, that definitely would make your guys' job easier. When people like you said no, you know well. I guess this goes to my next question when do you think people need to? I mean, it might depend on the species deer, moose or bear but when is it at the point where you're like, ah, you probably should have backed out a little sooner and called me?
Speaker 2:You know, it really depends a little bit on the fencing conditions. Like, if it's like really terrible windy, dry conditions and you just know that you're in trouble and you don't have a good blood trail, then it would be really good just to call right away, like if you know either your shot was a little off, maybe you know that you hit a branch, or something like that. If something's just wrong and the animal is just not leaving a good blood trail, it's good to at least touch base, you know, and call and get some kind of guidance. Sometimes people will call me right away and they're like yeah, I know I hit it. There's no blood at the hit site, I haven't even done anything yet and I'm like okay. And then I kind of talk them through, like okay, I'm, you know, wait a little bit longer, go up a little head, tell me if you see anything, talk them through it.
Speaker 2:I love when people engage me early because it's it's great. But generally speaking, if you're tracking along and you know your blood trail is starting to get sparse and you're really struggling to get the next drop, what I usually suggest is you know you should always be flagging your last drop when it starts to get sparse. So if you find your last drop and you're doing careful searching ahead, being careful where you step, doing nice careful little arc semicircles, and you're just still not really coming up with anything after a little bit, after you know like 20 minutes or so of this kind of careful looking ahead kind of a thing, then it's a good time to call. You know, and in my area if it's a Saturday in November, which is like our busiest gun hunting time, it's always good to touch base with us and you know, see what our scheduling is and that sort of thing, so that we can get you, you know, get you on the list here so that we could try to come out. And if you can't get a tracker, then that's when you bring in lots more people, start doing gridding instead of little circles and really get the boots on the ground out there. Completely good strategy if you don't have a good nose available, but if you can get a dog it's really going to make much quicker work of it.
Speaker 2:To call sooner than later. You know to call sooner than later and uh and and most of the time not always, but most of the time when somebody, when something's not right, you know you track up to an empty wound bed, for example, uh, the deer is not in the wound bed and uh, a lot of times when a deer weighs down and gets up, there's not much blood after that bed. If you're in that situation and you're like, oh, there's really no blood on this bed, that's probably going to be a situation where you know getting a dog is going to be a great option, right? Or if you know right off the bat, you know, say you're you took your child hunting and you're videoing and you've got it on video and, um, you know, you go out there and there's just very, very little blood and you play the video back and you see that you know that they shot a little bit further back, which is notorious area for not bleeding.
Speaker 2:Well, great time. Just to touch base with a dog tracker, you know, and tell them what's going on. And if you get a good blood trail, great. But if you don't, it's not likely to suddenly get incredibly easy to follow.
Speaker 1:Yeah, yeah, no, that's good advice. I've got a next question too. Before you answer, I'd like to guess. Okay, out of the deer moose and bear, what calls do you get the most? If I could guess, I'd say bear, just because they clawed up. If someone's trying to follow blood, I find that the bears. From what I've seen, they don't bleed too much.
Speaker 2:Yeah, from what I've seen they don't bleed too much. Yeah, so as far as volume, just because of the number of hunters, it's deer again just because we have so many deer hunters. But I bet you, if you could calculate some kind of percentage-wise as far as animals that would benefit from a dog tracker or that people have trouble you know you can't find it I bet you bears would probably be a higher percentage for the exact reasons that you stated they. For us in Maine it's terrain is a big problem. So the bears like the swampy areas where it's hard to see blood in. They like the mossy areas where it's hard to see blood in. They like the mossy area where it's hard to see blood in. Um would be, if you ever go through like a huge pine grove, to see blood spots on pine needles is very difficult. Unless they're big, little drops on pine needles are extremely hard to see. So that's one factor.
Speaker 2:Like you said, the anatomy of a bear is they're fatty and the exit wounds often get plugged up. Their coats are like giant paintbrushes and you come up to a bear that we find and you can look at its coat and go. It's just amazing that none of that hit the ground but it just soaked up like the blood soaked up in the coat, you know. So, yeah, they're pretty amazing like that. They also go through some of the most amazing, like hands and knees. You know, I don't even understand how a bear has fit through this. You know, my dachshund can barely fit through it. I can barely fit through it. I'm on my hands and knees getting through it. They're just amazing animals and so it makes them, I think, easy to lose honestly.
Speaker 1:Yeah, that's what I was thinking. Yeah, with how many animals do you have? Many instances where you're with the hunter, you're tracking, and you come upon the animal and it's still alive.
Speaker 2:Yeah, that happens from time to time and the way that we handle that is, at least in Maine, the way that our laws are is that if it's legal hunting hours, our hunter dispatches the animal, even though we're there with our dog it's a Sunday, or if it's just, you know, dark, then that because it can happen where we go up and you know we need to put an end to things and do it quickly and humanely. And that gives us our best chance of doing that, because sometimes we we have to track at night, we have to track off hunting hours, right, yeah, so yeah, that's how.
Speaker 1:That's how we handle that yeah, that's no, it's really good. Um well, just wonder, have you, have you had any close calls where you're tracking a wounded bear? You get up on the bear and it's, you know, a bit grumpy or anything like if you had any close calls or um, I, it's funny.
Speaker 2:It's a good question. I have never had a super dicey situation with a bear and I've tracked as far as people in maine. I live in bear country and I track a lot, so I track a lot of bears. Um for a tracker, lots and lots of bears every year. Never, never, had something really really super bad. Uh, it's moose.
Speaker 1:Okay, yeah, it's moose.
Speaker 2:Yeah, yeah, um, and I and getting back to bears, I completely respect bears and I'm super cautious of them Um, I keep my dogs on extremely short leash.
Speaker 2:I do track bears at night, which people think I'm a little crazy for, but, uh, I really want to get these animals recovered and people be able to eat them, and if a lot of times the way our bear season is so uh, it's in September and it could be very warm Um, the best chance of getting that bear recovered without any meat spoilage is going to be the track at night.
Speaker 2:So I do that and I do it very carefully and, uh, so I do that and I do it very carefully and, you know, do everything that I can to prevent problems. But I also bears seem to be really good about understanding that we're restricted, like the dog is slow and on a leash, and that it can get away from us. So if it can get away from us, they typically will. Okay, yeah, moose like to stand their ground. So, there, we've had some dicey situations there, for sure, and we don't even track a huge amount of moose, but the percentage of moose that we have come up on that are still alive, that have charged us, is pretty high oh um, yeah.
Speaker 1:Yeah, yeah. Is there a particular story you'd like to share? Sure.
Speaker 2:I'm trying to pick one here. The worst one was one where I actually did get physically hurt, not very badly, I was very lucky. But this move, this was a fatally hit moose, but we were just, I guess, a little too early and the moose had actually this is very typical of, I guess, all wounded game. They'll do it like a J hook, so they will kind of lay their scent line and then, before they lay down to rest, they will kind of do a hook and then watch their back track to see if anything's following them, and so, uh, many animals do that.
Speaker 2:So this moose did that, and the thing with moose is that they tend to use this opportunity as um, a way to also, kind of, you know, get us off their, off, their back. Uh, so this moose Jay hooked, and in the middle of Jay hook with a big clump of vegetation, so this moose was bedded, uh, right behind this vegetation, watching me walk down its track with my little dog and, um, and I did not see it. And then so, when he stood up and whipped around to charge us, I think he was. There was nothing I could do. He was right there. So I just hit the deck, hit the ground, and my dog was right there and I covered him with my body and the moose went right over us and kicked us a bit as it went over us and kicked us a bit as it went over.
Speaker 2:And then I, the guide I had with me was great and he is also a bear hound guide and so he's very used to like quick situation, because with the off leash dogs, the hounds, they get in some, you know, they get some quick work sometimes. He was able to dispatch the moose. These dogs are hounds. They get in some. You know they gotta do some quick work sometimes. Um, he, he was able to dispatch uh the moose safely and everyone was okay. Um, but uh, yeah, they moose really hate dogs like. Their method of dealing with canids is typically to stand their ground and and to just take control of the situation. So, yeah, so I don't, I don't blame them for it. It's a wounded animal. You know we were, we were going after it and we just got really, we got really lucky, so yeah.
Speaker 1:Yeah, yeah, very lucky. That definitely gets the the heart pumping. Wow, that's, that's crazy, uh. And you know, in doing this I'm sure you've uh, even being a hunter before, but doing this you'd learn so much more and probably have a much bigger appreciation and just uh, sometimes disbelief at what these animals are capable of, like how smart they are, their, their will to survive and just tricks and stuff that they have to try to elude predators, I guess.
Speaker 2:No, absolutely. They're amazing, and I mentioned earlier my mentor that got me into this, susana. We were always discussing things with each other and she's been doing this for like 25 years or so and I've been doing it for, I don't know, 12 or 13. It doesn't matter, it really doesn't matter how long you do it. You're always learning about these animals and like feeding something different, and they still are like shocking us sometimes with the things that they can do or how smart they are. Or you know like yeah, we'll call each other up and be like you cannot believe what this dude did, or you know.
Speaker 2:And then, uh, another part of that is really fun introducing the hunters to that, because most hunters like things go right all the time, right, and we're only seeing when things are. Things are different and things go a little wrong and and so they're not often exposed to. This is a very rare occasion for hunters right when something goes wrong like this. So it's pretty neat to kind of like show them that. Or you know, like we'll be going up this, we'll be following a deer, for example, and we're going up this wicked steep hill and we know, maybe from the evidence, that the deer has a leg wound and, you know, I just might be like I can't imagine that a deer would ever do this when wounded.
Speaker 2:And and, of course, those that have seen it over and over, like, oh, yeah, they're, they're amazing, like you know yeah, this is not surprising me at all Like they'll do this and um, it's just seeing seeing these things. Or like the backtracks and the tricks they'll do, or you know the uh and they know things. Like they'll, they'll do something where, uh, you know, they'll cross a stream and maybe it's kind of a deep stream. So, uh, it takes us a little while to find a way to get across the stream without getting ourselves soaked in freezing, and it's almost like the animals figure that out and they go oh, that's blowing them down, all right, I'm going to keep doing that. So then, next thing, you know, the deer hadn't crossed the stream, the whole track, and now they just went back and forth five times across the stream. Wow, yeah.
Speaker 2:Because they're just so amazing. You know, their instincts are incredible.
Speaker 1:Yeah, well, they notice what slows you down, mm-hmm, yeah, yeah, it's amazing. I mean, when you go out, you must educate a lot of hunters and I'm sure they appreciate it too on just things to look for when you're tracking and what the animals are capable of and, like you said, all these things that they might not have uh realized before because they haven't been in this situation.
Speaker 2:Absolutely, yeah, and I really try the best I can to uh involve them and all that and to show them what I'm seeing and explaining it and and also explaining things about my dog, because I don't know my dog Right, and a lot of times we're not actually getting much for evidence, if anything. There's been a whole track where we haven't seen a drop of blood Right, and then there's the animal and so they don't know that I'm not just this Like who am I? I'm out here taking my dog for a walk, right? I've had people tell me that before. Of course they weren't saying anything. And then we find the deer and they're like you know, but they don't know, yeah, so I get a lot of enjoyment out of making sure I'm explaining like, oh, look at what my dog is doing there or look how fast he's going or how hard he's going.
Speaker 2:This means that we've actually gotten onto fresh scent of this deer, know, and just like explaining what the deer is doing, what the dog is doing, um, even like you know, say we find like a wound bed. We're gonna all go, the whole team, everyone that's out there, we're gonna go and we're gonna look at it and I'm gonna show them, tell them what I see in it, like oh look, okay, uh, this bed's warm. You know this blood's so wet. It's a darker, uh darker, blood. Oh, I kind of you smell that. You smell that little tinge of scent there. You know all that that means it might be a further back hit. You know, I'm always talking this stuff through so that they're kind of understanding what's going on, but also just to learn from and it's yeah, it's a big part of what we do for sure.
Speaker 1:Yeah, yeah, I mean it's really neat and I'm sure, like I said, the hunters really appreciate it and it's so great that you're there. You know for their lowest of lows on the hunting excursion to their highest, of highs when you know they're not sure what they hit the animal where it went. Highs, when you know they they're not sure what they hit the animal where it went. And then you know when you guys find it. And it's just this side of relief and excitement and all that.
Speaker 2:Yeah it's great. There's nothing better than you know, just being just the relief, you know, and the excitement from people and, of course, like the best, is the kids right, kids. When you do this for kids it's great, but for anybody really, it's just to have that that relief is a really fun experience to share your dogs like their knight in shining armor.
Speaker 2:I guess you could say yes, our hunters become very fond of our dogs and it's really fun to have them. Like you know, remember things about the dogs and I just did a sportsman show recently, so I got to see some people that I attract for, you know, and it's just so fun for them to come and be like oh how's Aldo doing? Or how's person doing and you know, like um great.
Speaker 1:Yeah Well, yeah, you know, they're just, yeah, like I said, you're with them on all these different emotions and they uh come to really really appreciate what you and your dogs can do, um, with wounded animals wounded animals do you find in a lot of scenarios will they go towards water?
Speaker 2:I would say they sometimes will, but it's certainly not. It's not as much of a thing as it's rumored to be. Okay and the we we find we have found some animals right dead in water, but not really for the amount of tracks. We do not really that many. And uh, the biggest thing that animals, the biggest circumstances I see animals going to water in, is actually when, uh, the hunter actually accidentally jumped the animal a little too early.
Speaker 1:Oh.
Speaker 2:So when that animal was feeling pressured of some kind so maybe it was a type of wound, that takes a little bit of time and the hunter went in too soon and bumped the animal, or bumped it once and didn't realize they should back out and then come back a little later and it just kind of kept pushing. Water entries are from what I've seen. This is what I've seen. They almost never just naturally like right after the hit and then they run to water and die in water. It's almost always when the animal has been kind of pushed at some point.
Speaker 1:Okay.
Speaker 2:Either by the hunter or coyotes or something like that. It's a.
Speaker 1:It's a often a desperation move for us for a wounded animal okay, yeah, I was curious about that because I mean I've found on a few tracking jobs here. They've gone towards it, but you always hear everyone say that like they'll go towards water. So I mean, you'd know better than a lot of people. So yeah, it's interesting, it's like a myth.
Speaker 2:I guess you could say I mean I, I call it. When hunters ask me that.
Speaker 2:I always call it like a, like a partial myth, like it's not completely a myth, but it's just not as a significant thing as as it's sometimes made out to be.
Speaker 2:I'd say and I always tell people, like animals will do whatever they think they have to go to be safe. So if you're a deer that lives near a huge bog and they know that that's a really safe spot, then yeah, they're going to go into the big mucky grossness, right, because that's a nice safe spot for them. Going to go into the big mucky grossness, right, because that's a nice safe spot for them. Um, if you're a mountain deer and you think your safe spot is to go way up high on the ridge, where they're going to go, uh, you know. So it's kind of like whatever, wherever they think they're going to be safe, and then if, if they're pressured, if they're they're really stressed and they're dying and they're they're pushed, they're going to. Well, I'm going to jump into this lake because you know I need to get away from you. So, yeah, they'll do all sorts of things and water definitely can factor in, for sure, in certain circumstances. Okay, absolutely.
Speaker 1:Yeah, yeah, no thanks for. So yeah, partial myth. Okay yeah, yeah, no thanks for. So yeah, partial myth. Um, so can in Maine? Can anybody do this? Or is there any specialized uh training? Do you have to show that your dogs like certified to do it? How's that work?
Speaker 2:In Maine we have a license and you need to be licensed to do this um for other people.
Speaker 2:Um, well, for for anybody, even for yourself.
Speaker 2:In order to use a dog to track a wounded deer in Maine, you have to have a license and to get the license you need to go and take a written exam.
Speaker 2:So there's no testing involved with your actual dog, but there is a written exam that you need to take. If you are a registered Maine guide, you don't need you still need a license unless you're going to only track for your guide clients. So if you're only going to track for your guide clients, you do not need a license, you just track under your guide license. If you're going to track for other people other than your hunting clients, then you need a tracking license, but you don't need to take the test because a lot of what they test for in the tracking exam is as a guide, you've tracked, you've tested for above and beyond all that stuff exam for uh, for trackers. And the part of why a license is required is because we do have certain abilities, right, so we can dispatch an animal um at night and on Sundays, and so you know there's a certain amount of competency with gun safety and things like that. Um, that we need to to show.
Speaker 1:Okay, yeah, no, that's good, I was wondering about that, but that definitely helps regulate it. So you don't have, you know, everybody going out with their whatever kind of dog running around trying to find stuff.
Speaker 2:For sure, and it helps that helps protect the tracking community too, because you know, tracking as it is, a lot of people don't understand tracking, especially when you're in a state that doesn't allow it. So I think they picture, like, you know, dogs running around chasing deer or something, and, and so you don't want to do anything, that's going to give um, kind of like a negative view of it. And if people are just kind of taking their dogs out willy-nilly and you know there's people aren't kind of keeping track of it, then it's, you know, it can just get a little, get a little out of control and, you know, do some negative things for the hunting and tracking community.
Speaker 1:Yeah, yeah, yeah, no, like I said, yeah, it's good to hear that it's monitored and stuff. Just to have a positive yeah, help have the positive light on it and how help there be that level of standard for you know, the people like yourself that are doing it and um, just helps, probably helps with the success obviously for sure yeah, uh, well, lindsey, you know I learned a lot.
Speaker 1:This was really interesting. I was looking helps probably helps with the success, obviously For sure. Yeah, Uh, well, Lindsay, you know I learned a lot. This was really interesting. I was looking forward to uh to this podcast with you. Uh, thanks so much for coming on. Uh, if people want to be able to see your adventures cause you are uh, fairly active on Facebook, which is great, I love following it and seeing uh, where can they find you on Facebook? What it's under?
Speaker 2:So on Facebook I am Lindsay Ware. Large game bud tracking.
Speaker 1:Perfect. And then, yeah, no, you post. I know during the season you're very, very busy, but you still, you know, are able to post here and there and it's, it's interesting to see, and, you know, see the happy faces of yourself and the hunters and the dogs and on a job well done.
Speaker 2:Well, thank you.
Speaker 1:Yeah, thanks. Thanks so much for coming on and hope this season goes well for you and hopefully we'll have you on again and talk about some of your adventures.
Speaker 2:Thanks so much for having me.