Hunts On Outfitting Podcast
Stories! As hunters and outdoors people that seems to be a common thing we all have lots of. Join your amateur guide and host on this channel Ken as he gets tales from guys and gals. Chasing that trophy buck for years to an entertaining morning on the duck pond, comedian ones, to interesting that's what you are going to hear. Also along with some general hunting discussions from time to time but making sure to leave political talks out of it. Don't take this too serious as we sure don't! If you enjoy this at all or find it fun to listen to, we really appreciate if you would subscribe and leave a review. Thanks for. checking us out! We are also on fb as Hunts on outfitting, and instagram. We are on YouTube as Hunts on outfitting podcast.
Hunts On Outfitting Podcast
The Call Maker's Craft, Hearing The Sound Of Success
Use Left/Right to seek, Home/End to jump to start or end. Hold shift to jump forward or backward.
Ever wondered about the craftsmanship behind the game calls that bring wild turkeys strutting into range? This episode pulls back the curtain on the fascinating world of custom call making with Kenneth McDonald, founder of River's Edge Game Calls.
Kenneth's journey began unexpectedly when he drew a tag for New Brunswick's first-ever turkey season. Armed with just a store-bought pot call and determination, he successfully harvested a tom on opening day. That success sparked a passion that would transform his woodworking hobby into a specialized craft. "I looked at this pot call and I'm thinking, 'I could do better,'" he tells us, describing the moment that launched his call-making adventure.
What follows is a masterclass in the surprisingly complex science behind effective game calls. Kenneth walks us through the intricate details that affect a call's sound – from wood density and surface materials to the precise engineering of internal components. We discover how different cuts create unique sounds in diaphragm calls, why glass-over-glass designs allow for custom soundboards, and how even the striker's length and weight dramatically influence performance. For anyone who's ever used a game call without considering its construction, this conversation will forever change how you view these essential hunting tools.
Beyond the technical aspects, Kenneth shares the profound satisfaction of knowing his handcrafted calls have helped hunters across North America connect with the outdoors. "That makes me a part of your hunt," he explains, highlighting the special relationship between call makers and the hunting community. His passion extends beyond craftsmanship to conservation, emphasizing how hunters contribute significantly to wildlife preservation.
Whether you're a seasoned turkey hunter, a call-making enthusiast, or simply curious about the intersection of craftsmanship and outdoor pursuits, this episode offers valuable insights into an often-overlooked aspect of hunting tradition. Join us for this fascinating conversation, and you might just find yourself appreciating your next turkey call in an entirely new way.
Check us out on Facebook Hunts On Outfitting, or myself Ken Marr. Reach out and Tell your hunting buddies about the podcast if you like it, Thanks!
This is Huntsman Outfitting Podcast. I'm your host and rookie guide, ken Meyer. I love everything hunting the outdoors and all things associated with it, from stories to how-tos. You'll find it here. Welcome to the podcast.
Getting Started in Hunting
Speaker 2Hey, thanks for tuning in to this week's episode If you like it and, you know, I hope that you share it out. So a lot of times when we buy something, we hope that it works and does what it's supposed to do, but we usually don't look into how it's built, what makes it work and everything that goes together with it. Well, today on the podcast we are talking to animal call maker Kenneth McDonald and get a behind the scenes chat into the call making world, along with getting to know him and why he started doing it. We also get into some turkey hunting talk and near the end of the podcast you will hear how my turkey calling needs some serious practice. I'm working on it. You also hear two other voices on this podcast Dalton Patterson, who has been on lots before and is interested in the call making, and my nephew, zach, who happened to be down visiting and is learning about hunting in general. So enjoy. So, from one Ken to another great name, and I'm excited to have you on.
Speaker 2How did you get into hunting? Have you always been hunting? One Ken to another great name and, uh, I'm excited to have you on. Uh, how did you get? How'd you get into hunting? Have you always been hunting, or did the calls come second?
Speaker 3I've always loved the woods. I always loved being in the woods, uh, up and down the streams in South Hampton. Uh, dream to the day I could go bird hunting. Uh my grandfather was a hunter not a good hunter, but he was a hunter Hunter nonetheless yeah. I showed him up when it come to partridge when I turned 14, but uh, yeah no, I've always, always, loved the woods and always dreamed of being in the woods when I was young, so you've always had a passion for it. I've always had a passion for it, yeah.
Speaker 2Yeah.
Speaker 3So you grew up in, uh, was it kind of central? Okay, yeah, sure, sure.
Speaker 2Yeah, that works. Yeah, Um, so you've always, you've always been in the woods and then you know, so you make game calls there's edge game calls. Um so, how, like I was just saying, I'm curious how does somebody you know you hear these animals talking in the woods? You're like I'm going to try to mimic that.
Speaker 3But, what?
Speaker 2what got you to do it?
Speaker 3Well, I've always loved woodworking, always love work woodworking, like throughout high school love shop class. So in 2021, I drew a tag for the first ever season here in New Brunswick. No idea anything about turkey hunting, yep. Um, I think the draw was Sunday night at 1201. I was off Monday.
Speaker 2And there was for New Brunswick. I mean, that was the first year turkey hunting. There wasn't many tags. No, your odds were slim.
Speaker 3I think there was 500, maybe, maybe, if that. So I was off that Monday of the draw and I run right to Canadian Tire. Yeah, I bought a choke for my 870.
Speaker 1Yeah.
Speaker 3Turkey choke and a Primo's pot call.
Speaker 2Okay.
Speaker 3Yeah, and scratched the call up.
Speaker 2The old classic Primo's. All I could do was Yelps on it.
Speaker 3Yeah, that's all I could do, and I practiced from that day until night before opening you had it all worn out.
Speaker 2It was more like helped instead of Yelps. Yeah, sort of thing yeah.
Speaker 3And I had no idea what I was doing. I tried to find as much information on turkey hunting as I could and I asked a lot of questions, lots of YouTube videos.
Speaker 2That's kind of what I'm doing now, cause I'm going turkey hunting for the first time this year. So yeah, youtube podcast and asking, podcasting, asking people. So yeah.
Speaker 3So so I drew the tag. Opening morning came and I hit the field. And opening day I did it. Yeah, I called in a Tom.
Speaker 2With, with the old Primo's, With the Primo's puck, call Yep.
Speaker 3And all I could do was yelp.
Speaker 2And that was enough.
Speaker 3That was enough that that first gobble and it just starts punching you in the chest. Yeah, and I mean, everything went blank, except for me and that turkey. I had a video camera with me and I could have videoed my hunt. All I do is hit record. Were you in a ground blind?
Speaker 2I was in a ground blind in the middle of a field. Yeah. So it's where I seen turkeys, but your first turkey hunt. I mean that, from what I've heard, like their eyesight's incredible, incredible, their hearing's incredible. They said that they could smell. We'd never get any and you thought I'm going to kick it up a notch, I'm going to try to even film it. Yeah, my first turkey hunt with this old Primo's call.
Speaker 3So all right, and I didn't even hit record. Oh, really, did not even hit record, okay.
Speaker 2Yeah.
Birth of a Call Maker
Speaker 3And it was exciting leave. I did it opening day for a season. Yeah, so I spent the next year looking at that pot call.
Speaker 2Actually, it wasn't even a year, so you, you never grew up thinking like I'd like to make calls. No, I've never. I've never dreamed of it Really.
Speaker 3Never dreamed of it. So I looked at this pot call and I'm looking at it and looking at it and looking at it and like, well, I could do better. I know there wood lathe, yeah, and I just I just went at it. It was early march of 2022 and I built five pot calls that day and I like the first one the most and, yeah, that's kind of the design I went with. Yeah, internally, because outside they all look the same or similar, but it's the insides that really make the call the call so how?
Speaker 2yes, you got. So you got this Prima's call from Canadian Tire store here in Canada. And you just went, analyzed it visually and like I can make this you could see through it, because it was clear plastic.
Speaker 3So you could see the two layers. Well, the top layer was crystal and then there was a layer of glass. You can see the pedestal and I'm just thinking like I could do this, and I actually designed one with the cricket app. Did you go on like youtube?
Speaker 3I did go on youtube and I watched a lot of threads okay how they work and stuff yeah, yeah, but there's a lot of threads and if you take information from everybody, like the pedestal widths and heights and everything, and I just put something together and I like the first one I made.
Speaker 2Okay, see, I thought, because I know you do grunt toots and all that I thought you started with that.
Speaker 3No oh.
Speaker 2Okay.
Speaker 3No, that was for the off-season too.
Speaker 2Oh, okay, yeah, that's how I thought you started so there's multiple seasons.
Speaker 3You could have multiple.
Speaker 2Yes, yeah so.
Speaker 3I'm slowly expanding my line. Yeah, so the buck grunts were second.
Speaker 2Yeah, so I guess we'll jump into the the buck grunts a little bit and then, you know, back to the turkey talk.
Speaker 3What's the name of your business, stu? River's Edge Game Calls calls okay has to do with the riverine well, the wood lathe, I was overlooking the river. Okay, perfect right on the edge right on the edge of the riverbank. Yeah, yeah up st john river.
Speaker 2Yeah, yeah, that's neat if I look to the right.
Speaker 3I can see the mactaquack dam straight down. I see the fish hatchery in the water that's a good work woodworking spot.
Speaker 2Yeah, yeah, yeah, I wouldn't get much done.
Speaker 3It's like looking at the fish look at the day better name's Edge. I'm on the edge of the river, yeah, yeah.
Speaker 2And it's easy to remember and stuff. So, all right, well, let's, let's. Like I said, I want to get back into the turkey stuff for a while. But how did you the buck grunts? How did that come about?
Speaker 3Well, I want to be a deer hunter.
Speaker 2Okay, yeah, no-transcript you had I just called from canadian tire, walmart or whatever. You just kind of analyzed it and like I can make it no I, just I.
Speaker 3I, we've all seen them, we've all had them. Yeah, the cheap buck grunts from canadian tire and I actually still have one, do you? I do too my grandfather's I got them yeah I'll never get rid of it. Yeah, but uh, just I visualized what I wanted to build because my tube is wood, where this tube on the Canadian Tire one was like a plastic.
Speaker 2Plastic.
Speaker 3Yeah, like what are they Generic yeah, plastic. Yeah, like a gas can yeah.
Speaker 2Actually mine did taste a little fumey yeah.
Speaker 3I think that's what they look like. Yeah, yeah, I think that's what they look like yeah. Yeah, Anyways, I wanted a one-piece buck grunt and I just I made one and it sounded great and people wanted them.
Speaker 2Yeah, now with the buck grunts when you're making yours made out of wood. They're all custom handmade. Does the wood matter for those with the sound?
Speaker 3No, I don't find the wood does matter with them more of them is is the reeds. And yeah, and adjusting the o-ring on the tone board, right, right, yeah, okay, probably the length of the tube would make a difference yeah, because what's?
Speaker 2the longer it sounds like a younger buck and the shorter it's an older buck.
Speaker 3I think, yeah, it would be deeper, more throaty if it was longer, yeah, so.
Speaker 2Okay, yeah, I haven't used them a whole. Actually, the one that I call my bucket with this year. I was just quacking away on it like I was on Duck Commander, but that wasn't even adjustable. It's like a I can't remember the brand, but it wasn't even adjustable and he just straight rubber. But yeah, um, okay, so that's you got it, that's what you get into the buck. Yeah, yeah, no, that makes sense.
Speaker 3Yeah, then there's rat squealers and there's squirrel calls and what else is? I've done some duck calls.
Speaker 2Yeah, that's a whole other world too. The duck calls oh, yeah, yeah.
Speaker 3Yeah, I'm not a duck hunter, so I'm.
Speaker 2I don't know much about duck calls but just blow it like yeah, that sounds like a duck sure.
Speaker 3I've bought the reeds and I've thrown them together and people love them. Yeah yeah, it brings the ducks out.
Speaker 2Yeah, you fiddled around with duck calls a bit. Some of all my calls to to play on the podcast, yeah, um sure.
Speaker 5Brought one for me to play with. Yeah, might've bought it.
Speaker 3You coming to the show this week.
Speaker 5Probably not.
Speaker 2You should come to the show, okay. Well, that was a kind of climatic there, Dalton.
Speaker 3Um, yeah, there's a sportsman show going on, then you're set up there this weekend. Yeah, the.
Speaker 2Canadian wild Turkey Federation. And um cause, you also got into making the diaphragm calls.
Speaker 3Uh, just recently. That's, that's very new to me.
Speaker 2Yeah.
Speaker 3Um, took me about 200 to learn how to use my press Really. Yeah Cause, yeah so.
Speaker 2I just started, you know, playing around with those, but a month ago and I've, I've, I'm feeling better at it.
Speaker 3It's like anything the more you use it, the more you're going to learn. And you're going to learn little tricks and little sounds, and you're just going to evolve and keep getting better.
Speaker 2It's all about just playing with your tongue and your teeth and
Speaker 1your lips and everything.
Speaker 3Just learning how to make it talk yeah.
Speaker 5So to a non. I would call myself a non-turkey hunter.
Speaker 2I would too.
Speaker 5A diaphragm versus a.
Speaker 3Diaphragms are the hardest to learn, so what would be the advantage to them?
Speaker 2Well, you're not moving your hands.
Speaker 3Yeah it'd be the movement. So the diaphragm's hands-free. So if you've got a turkey at 50 yards and he can see you and you've got a gun in your hand, you can't drop your gun and start calling with the pot.
Speaker 2Fair, got a gun in your hand.
Speaker 5You can't, you can't drop your gun and start calling with the pot. Fair enough, that's where the mouth call.
Speaker 2And also the fact that not everyone can do it, so you can say I called in with my mouth, that's right. Yeah, half of it is just ego. Yeah, well, yeah, okay, well I wouldn't say.
Speaker 3I wouldn't say it's ego, it's hands free, yeah, you, you can't move when a turkey's looking at you see, I never even thought of that yeah, if you move, he's gone.
Speaker 4yeah, he's so it's kind of like a two in one. It's in your mouth, you're gobbling at the same time as you can shoot him.
Speaker 3Well, you're doing. You're doing yelps, okay, cause the Tom's gobble. So you're mimicking a hen.
Speaker 4Oh, okay, yeah, yeah, I've never hunted Turkey in my life.
Speaker 3Yeah, never, ever. So you're making is is the pot calls sound the best? Yeah, um, the box calls. They really reach out and they're easy to use. Okay, and the mouth calls the diaphragms. They're hands-free, so are you going to get?
Speaker 2into the box, because you make everything else what are those?
Speaker 4maybe eventually, okay, it's, it's all learning process yeah, yeah, it's all more finicky to make, or?
Speaker 3I don't even know because I've never tried. It's all thicknesses and friction.
Speaker 2I'm prodding myself in learning the diaphragm, being able to call a turkey with that, but everything I've read about it is the fact that that's why I wanted to get scratch calls, pot calls, slate call from you. Also, I wanted the nice custom one. It looks cool. And the fact that I've been told that you need that variety.
Speaker 3You should have all the calls. Really, that's what I've heard. I don't make box calls, but go get yourself a box call. That's what I've heard. Yeah, yeah, like, use, use all the tools to your advantage, and it doesn't matter if you buy it from me or Canadian tire wear. Use all the tools. So, um, we're going to get into the?
Speaker 2uh, so is it. Is it called a pot, call a slate call scratch.
Speaker 3They're all pot calls.
Speaker 1Okay, so then All those words are the same thing.
Speaker 3So the calls I'm building are pot calls, but the materials in the call can change. Like you can have glass over glass, glass over slate, slate over glass, crystal over glass, crystal over slate, copper, aluminum, so on and so forth.
Speaker 2Okay, aluminum. Like you scratch on the aluminum, I've got some aluminum ones at the show right now. Are those?
Speaker 3like really high pitched.
Speaker 2They're really high pitched Okay and some people really like that yeah.
Speaker 3Yeah, I've got a couple of really nice aluminum calls.
Speaker 2Yeah, yeah. So the one that you made me looks awesome, looks awesome.
Speaker 3It's glass over glass.
Speaker 2Yep.
Speaker 3And that gives me the option to do custom soundboards, like I've done for you.
Speaker 1Yes.
Speaker 3Because if I put slate on this, we're not going to see your soundboard, right yeah?
Speaker 1Yeah.
Speaker 3And that's why I think people really love the glass on glass, because I can take my call and make it yours, yep, and people love personalized and custom.
Speaker 2Yeah, Like well, like we were talking earlier, so I didn't know.
Speaker 3you have to take sandpaper and wreck the front of the call with it Basically, and that's the way people feel about it.
Wood, Glass, and Sound
Speaker 2Yeah, but how you said, so some people get to, I actually I probably will get another one just to keep it all pristine and stuff Like I wouldn't even need a scratcher with it.
Speaker 3I'll just I get you a different wood dowel. It's going to sound a little different that way you'll have two.
Speaker 5Yeah, I cringed a little bit when you scratched it. I'll be honest, People do.
Speaker 3At the show. I'll go grab a brand new column of sandpaper. They're looking at me, I'm just ripping right into it Just like nails on a chalkboard. They're like ah shit, that call's an $85 call and you're scratching it and we need scratched Like I'd love scratching.
Speaker 4So once there's scratched that much, there are they. Uh, you do you need to scratch them again, or?
Speaker 3uh, as soon as I rub my fingers on that, the oils off my fingers are going to fill in them grooves and it's going to go smooth. So it will need scratched again. Okay, okay.
Speaker 2So so the way you had the call, you have it all pristine and looking pretty nice, but that won't work. So you, you do have to take the sandpaper, you do have to scratch it and give her a rub. Yeah, okay.
Speaker 3Even like with the slate and the aluminum, you've got to scuff it up.
Speaker 2You do yeah.
Speaker 3Okay, yeah, but you don't uh, you don't use sandpaper on slate. Even with the Scotch, the slate just disappear. Oh, really oh yeah, like you could, if you, if you spend a day scotch bray, yeah, you can wear it through it.
Speaker 2Really.
Speaker 3Oh yeah, slate is so soft, huh, yeah. And then you get into glass, yeah, then crystals even harder. So that's where you get your higher pitches sounds.
Speaker 2Okay.
Speaker 4So, uh, what one do you the best? Like glass myself, I love the glass.
Speaker 3Yeah, I love the glass over glass. Now I've I've guided hunts with glass and I've guided hunts with slate. They both work. Yeah, it's all, it's all preference. It's like cars. Yeah, yeah, we all like something different. We're all looking for a different sound. The slate is a little easier because it's naturally rough, so is one heavier than the other.
Speaker 4Like is one made out of something different, that's a little one heavier than the other. Like is one made out of something different, that's a little bit heavier than the other.
Speaker 3I think weight they're pretty close. Slate would be a touch heavier, but it's such a small piece You're not going to notice.
Speaker 2All right, so you, uh, you, scratched mine all to hell, uh, no.
Speaker 3So so what I can do if you're really fussy about? No, it's fine, I'll actually probably get another one. So would you mind you give her a little test run? So it's already scratched up. We scratched it up previous.
Speaker 2So do you want me to move the mic here? I'll play with it. That's pretty cool.
Speaker 3So that's some prayers, yelps and some, uh yeah, little cuts so you have to use it on the scratched part obviously, yeah, like I'm. I'm over here touching the other piece of the glass and nothing, nothing, yeah, so it's got to be scratched so is there a certain way you have to go with it, or uh, so you scratch it in one direction and you want to play across them scratches, so think of this as a musical instrument. You ever seen a record?
Speaker 2No, you haven't Zach.
Speaker 3What's on records Bumps, so the needle plays on bumps. There's lines. But then there's also bumps inside of it. These are the bumps.
Speaker 2The bumps are. What kind of help?
Speaker 3make the music sound. This is a musical instrument.
Speaker 4Learning something new today, boys.
Speaker 2I don't doubt it.
Speaker 4Well, that's neat.
Speaker 2So we were talking, you were asking Dalton this about like so that is bird's eye maple wood that the glass is in.
Speaker 3This one is a bird's eye maple.
Speaker 2yeah, yeah, so then the different wood is going to affect.
Speaker 3Yeah, different density of woods is going to raise or lower the pitches.
Speaker 2So what that's the most popular? The bird's eye maple. Everybody loves bird's eye, yeah.
Speaker 3If you say bird's eye to someone like here, here, bird's eye, give me bird's eye.
Speaker 1Yeah.
Speaker 3Everybody loves bird's eye.
Speaker 2Here's my money, yeah, yeah. But so you have other densities and all that and that will completely affect the salmon.
Speaker 3Oh yeah, oh yeah, make them higher pitched. Yeah, yeah.
Speaker 2No, that's neat. So you've been selling calls what all over North America?
Speaker 3A lot in New Brunswick and Ontario, a few in Maine, some in Connecticut, Massachusetts. I've got one in Montana, one in Texas, one in New Zealand, montana and. Texas.
Speaker 2I've got a buck grunt in Nunavut. Is there bucks to grunt in in Nunavut?
Speaker 3There's not but as a call maker, I want one in every state and every province. Yeah, so I actually sent this one up there for free to an Eskimo, I don't even know the Eskimo?
Speaker 2No, I thought they called things with their noses.
Call Making Across North America
Speaker 3Like you know, the Eskimo kiss A friend's husband works up there and I'm like here, take this buck, grind, give it to an Eskimo. And he went to their house and they were going nuts over it and said they're going to call in. It's like, holy shit, I've got one of it. That is cool. Yeah, it was a bird's eye, because I think I saw on your butternut.
Speaker 2Well, I think I saw on your facebook you had like a tax and a map or whatever you were trying to get it yeah, all over, yeah, so montana, yeah, in texas. No, what do they have there for turkeys? If somebody will correct me, I'm gonna have a guy on again Walker, talking about Montana hunting. I think they're merriams, I'm not sure which species and subspecies are where All right, this is going to be really uneducated.
Speaker 5Same calls for every type of turkey.
Speaker 2I'm going to say yes, yes, as a completely uneducated idiot on this, I'm going to say yes too. But I've heard that some turkey breeds or subspecies whatever you want to call them, you've got to be a lot more chatty with. So I've heard that the Easterns can be a bit harder. Where you've got the Marians and stuff. You've got to be real yappy with them and all that.
Speaker 3But Primos isn't building a pot called just for Florida. No, fair enough. They're with them and all that primos isn't building a pot called just for florida.
Speaker 2No, they're building one, and it's, it's going all over. That would be the oslo, oslo no oslo, oslo, osceola, the real pretty one turkeys yeah, yeah, real pretty, I've seen them. We're boar hunting there. Yeah, you seem like man. It's just like a, a gay looking rainbow running by.
Speaker 3So so far, to my knowledge, only eastern turkeys have been harvested with my calls, so so for me to have one of them, other species would be a milestone for me, so if somebody is listening to this and gets one. I absolutely, I absolutely want everybody to send me pictures of their harvest. If you shoot a buck with my grunt, I want to hear about it.
Speaker 4Yes, you'd be proud of it, yeah.
Speaker 3Cause that makes. Did you hear that?
Speaker 2zach, if you end up, that makes me a part of your hunt. Yeah, I'm always a part of your hunt and that is very rewarding as a call maker? No for sure. Well, that's, you help accomplish what? Yeah, what you set out to do is mimic that animal and help, just because you don't pull the trigger. Yeah, it doesn't make it not oh, exactly, yeah, I'm a part of it, yeah and that's just a very rewarding feeling see, that's good, that's, I've got coonhounds upstairs, um.
Speaker 2So that, yeah, I mean as a as a call maker. Yeah, it's really good to hear that means that, yeah, you're passionate, you're, you wanted you, you got into this for the right reasons. It's just being a part of that hunt and helping mimic that animal sound and bring it bring it absolutely, yeah, absolutely.
Speaker 5So you weekend are at the sportsman show.
Speaker 3Yep.
Speaker 5Do you do any of the shows anywhere?
Speaker 3I haven't, but I really should be doing some of these smaller community shows. Yeah.
Speaker 4So you're selling those calls there too, eh?
Speaker 3Yeah, the CWTF lets me sell calls at their booth. I come in and I talk turkey and I draw attention to their booth and help them out with their seminars.
Speaker 2Well, it's great. I mean, the Canadian Wild Turkey Federation is a branch off from the North American Wild Turkey Federation, all that and it's good to promote it in any way, shape or form, just to have more turkey hunters out there for conservation.
Speaker 3Well, cwtf isn't just turkey, it's conservation across the board. Yeah, just because we're Canada wild Turkey Federation doesn't mean we just care about turkeys, we care about all conservation. Yeah. So uh, if it's fishing, deer hunting, bear hunting, whatever we we love it.
Speaker 2Well, that's, that's you know again. So I mean you have got. I don't know how we're getting onto this, but it's good. So you've got PETA and all that right and you have to know the animals and everything and don't protect the animals but, like we were talking, hunters do more for conservation than any group imaginable.
Speaker 3We love the animals more too, we do.
Speaker 2We want them.
Speaker 5You can drive 12 Teslas at once and you're not going to do half of what hunters do for animals, but it means you just heard.
Speaker 2if anyone listens to this, heard my coon hounds howling upstairs. You know I love coon hunting. Do I want to see more coons around? Yeah, I do. Actually, I don't hate them at all.
Speaker 5I love hunting them. I love seeing coons.
Speaker 3I love seeing them right Bear have such a bad rap. I've shot, I've killed bear, but I won't shoot a bear, just shoot a bear. I love watching bear and I spend more time watching live bear while hunting than I've actually harvested.
Speaker 1Really Absolutely, and that's normal.
Speaker 3I will go bear hunting just to get him within 14 yards of a bear.
Speaker 4You'll look at a bear some days and just not even shoot it, oh yeah, absolutely, absolutely. Even if it's like a decent size eh.
Speaker 3I've had bear walk under me and just just enjoy it.
Speaker 2Watch it, you're you're there with nature, the ghost of the woods yeah, he doesn't.
Speaker 3He doesn't know you're there. You've you fooled him. You've already won.
Speaker 4That's pretty cool when you're hunting bear too.
Speaker 2I find you're there. I can hear deer any day over a bear coming in, and then all of a sudden you just there's a bear. It's like how the hell did he get in?
Speaker 3there, it's that silent noise. Yeah, I remember I had someone hunting with me and there were squirrels running around.
Speaker 1Yeah.
Speaker 2Oh, you can hear them.
Speaker 3And they'd look over me like is it a bear, Is it a hunt? And I'm like bear's coming. And they looked and started laughing yeah Right, and I'm like no bears coming, Like get ready.
Speaker 1Yeah.
Speaker 3And they couldn't hear a thing. And it's just that one silent noise you hear. It's almost like a silent noise. Everything gets quiet, you can feel it, and that bear shows up in front of you.
The Turkey Hunt Experience
Speaker 2Yeah, I find, as humans, having hunted bear stuff, as a fellow predator.
Speaker 3really, I feel you can feel it when they're coming in, you almost tune into it, yeah.
Speaker 2Yeah, Because we're another. I guess you consider us like an apex predator as well, right, yeah, and like you say, you tune into it.
Speaker 4You can just feel that there's another predator coming in, something's coming, yeah, like you say, you tune into it. You can just feel that there's another predator coming in here. Something's coming, yeah. Yeah, that's crazy for being such a big animal to walk up on you just like nothing.
Speaker 3A bear knows every step it makes, Unless it's scared and it takes off running. A bear chooses where it steps.
Speaker 1Yeah.
Speaker 3Really. And if you bait a bear spot and it's a heavy used bear spot, you'll see his tracks going through the woods.
Speaker 4He'll just keep using the same path.
Speaker 3They will step in the same footprint time after time, it's amazing.
Speaker 2Yeah. So, um, I want to talk to you a bit more about Turkey, cause that season's coming up. Yeah, fired up about it. Uh. So what's another? Like you've, you've been on quite a few Turkey hunts here. What's a really good, memorable one that stuck out, where you're calling it in with your calls?
Speaker 3uh well, the first one with my call was with sean black okay yeah, uh, that was another opening day turkey.
Speaker 2So you were guiding, he got his tag and you were kind of helping I wasn't guiding, it was.
Speaker 3It was kind of like two people going out moose hunting yeah so I was calling and and he was hunting and he got educated that day and I learned lots too Okay, cause he seen them across the field and he went running across the field.
Speaker 2I sat down on a rock. You think you can do that?
Speaker 1You can't.
Speaker 3No no you can't. But you think you can. He's going to kill me for saying that, but we both learned a lot that day, yeah.
Speaker 5Wait, what'd you say his name was? No, I'm just kidding sean great great guy sean, if you're listening.
Speaker 3We're sorry. He's gonna listen because I'm gonna tell him about this.
Speaker 2But I mean, I've been in maine with a buddy of mine, like we're out bearhound hunting and then, um, just we got time where I was driving around they got so many turkeys in maine and like you see them, I was like I'm gonna get out of the truck and like run up to them or whatever, and he's like no, you're not, I'm like yeah, I am just open up the truck door and go, and yeah, they're gone yeah, like you can't run up on them.
Speaker 3They're all doors even. But now there's there's yard birds that are used to people too, but they're not. They're not the, the crazy woods turkeys that that are hard to hunt.
Speaker 5Yeah, yeah anyway, so continue your story.
Speaker 3Sorry, so, anyways, sean black harvesting turkey opening day, and that, that tom coming behind us just screaming and spitting. It was hilarious because he was sitting beside me and I couldn't see, but he was. He was sweating and the sun was to our left and the turkey walked by our blind and you could see the silhouette of the turkey on the side of the blind and it was just, it was awesome Like that was. That was the first one I seen was witnessed with my call.
Speaker 2So you, you did you have a pot call, yeah, calling them in, I believe that was call number 37. Okay that I made, yeah, and.
Speaker 3I gave it to Sean.
Speaker 2Yeah.
Speaker 3Money. Can't pay for that call.
Speaker 1Yeah.
Speaker 3So it's, it's Sean's call now it's.
Speaker 1Sean's turkey yeah.
Speaker 3And I was super proud and we had a lot of good laughs up there and it was good it's awesome.
Speaker 2So the biggest thing you've learned, like you said, turkey hunting is like you know just how well they can see.
Speaker 3Oh yeah and stuff like that, yeah, yeah they.
Speaker 2How did you learn to uh, to talk turkey? Like YouTube videos or just being out in the field Lots of watching videos, but nothing is like being in the field and watching them react.
Speaker 3Yeah.
Speaker 2Yeah. So, yeah, that's what I'm. Yeah, that's what I'm excited to start doing next. I've seen more turkeys in the past week than I have, but I've never gone out calling without being in season and hunting. Okay, yeah.
Speaker 3So I don't just, I don't just fire up the birds with my calls. Yeah, so all my practicing is at home in the house, but it's when I'm in the field guiding or mentoring, that's when I'm working the call and seeing how they respond to the different calls I'm making.
Speaker 2Yeah, so yeah, whether it's purrs or or yelps or little pucks or stuff yeah.
Speaker 4Back to the call thing there real quick. Is it just you making your own calls?
Speaker 2Yep just me Sole employee Employee of the month every month. Now I did let Wesley and Well, I saw Wesley Tebow. Yeah, he, he made his own.
Speaker 4Diagram call.
Speaker 2Shout out. I saw he made his own diaphragm call. So, all right, here's another thing. So I'm, I'm, I'm all new to this. I've been playing, I've got, I think, one two, three four, five, six different diaphragm calls playing around with single read, triple read and all that. But then the different cuts. Yeah, you want to get into that a little bit.
Speaker 3They're all going to sound different, and it's not just the cuts. Well, how many?
Speaker 2cuts. I mean you can cut it a lot of different ways. There's a million combinations.
Speaker 3Yeah, so you haven't even get into stretches, cause you just go by, call it Canadian tire and you're getting what they sell you.
Speaker 2Yeah, I mean so. I mean I got some off Amazon Um and I also got some from from nature's voice game calls shout out. That was a. That was a double read and they said that was a good one to start with, and they were right. Yeah, they were definitely right. Um, shout out, michael booth, uh, in west virginia. So now I've got into the triple reads they are harder to blow, but the sounds better, yeah, but so there's like your reverse combo cut your batwing, cut all that I mean.
Speaker 2obviously, like you said, you can cut them a million different ways, but are there your standard?
Speaker 3cuts. So a lot of the standard cuts are like the V cut, the batwing ghost. Those are your three most common cuts. Then you get into the combos and there's so many different modified cuts.
Speaker 4So what's the cuts? Just change the sound and stuff like that It'll change how the latex vibrates.
Speaker 2If you want it, right there above there there's a black pouch. Yep, right there, yep, so open that I'll show Zach quick, but to go even further than the cuts.
Speaker 3There's latex thicknesses and how much it's stretched.
Speaker 5Okay.
The Science Behind Diaphragm Calls
Speaker 3So the guys in the States are so advanced compared to us because they've done it so long? Yeah, they're looking for a specific sound. So then they go to their call maker. They're trying out different calls, different stretches, different, to get the sound they're looking for.
Speaker 2Yeah. So how did you play with my calls here? How did you come up with what you liked to make? I guess Just trial and error, really?
Speaker 3Yeah, you just make a bunch and whatever is appealing to you.
Speaker 2Yeah, and then I heard I was reading of stuff about the big thing, about don't let the reeds stick together.
Speaker 3Yeah, that's. That's awful. I just posted a video.
Speaker 2I'm just screwing with that right now On my page about that.
Speaker 4So what's the reeds like?
Speaker 3So these Layers of latex, yeah.
Speaker 2So there's three layers there.
Speaker 1The black stuff or the green?
Speaker 2stuff, this stuff right here, it's different colors. Yeah, yeah, that's the reeds. So yeah, don't let them stick together.
Speaker 3When they dry they will stick together. So you got to get them good and slobbery, and you should probably clean them with fresh water and keep them in the fridge.
Speaker 2I've heard that. And even mouthwash, yeah, or you can put the mouthwash and stuff.
Speaker 3And don't leave them in your car.
Speaker 5Like the heat will break down the latex I'll first, and guys putting them in their wallet. Yeah, yeah, yeah, I probably have something in my wall.
Speaker 2Really well, I'm a call maker. My wallet, I want my mouth nothing. It's disgusting. You want to put a hundred dollar bill in your mouth.
Speaker 5No, that's the difference between you and me. They say money is the dirtiest thing you can handle.
Speaker 1It's good, yeah, the reason hell, that's supposed to sound like turkey the reeds are stuck together, yeah what?
Speaker 4in the hell that's supposed to sound like turkey.
Speaker 2The reeds are stuck together.
Speaker 4Yeah that doesn't really sound like a turkey, does it? That sounds a little different.
Speaker 2No, the reeds are stuck together a bit. So how did you decide what reeds to, or what cuts?
Speaker 3I guess, like I said, to Well, there's the standard cut, so obviously you're going to do the bat wing, the combos the. V split.
Speaker 1And then if anybody wants anything, specific, you just cut them.
Speaker 2But that, yeah, that's what it looks like, zach, it was just as hard learning the cuts as it was to operate the press itself.
Speaker 3Really? Oh yeah, because you're cutting them by hand with fly tying scissors, oh yeah. So how do you get that curve in there itself? Really? Oh yeah, cause you're cutting them by hand with a fly tying scissors.
Speaker 1Oh yeah, so how do you get that curve in there? Yeah, right, yeah.
Speaker 3That's something you get to learn.
Speaker 1And how do?
Speaker 3you do it over and over the same every time, each one's cut individually.
Speaker 5That would be the hardest thing. Yeah, make them all the same.
Speaker 3I've messed a lot up. I bet couple hundred calls that have just gone to the garbage. But as a call maker you have to do that, you have to have your trial and error, you have to learn and you can't let something go to your shop that's not to your standards no, that's right.
Speaker 5No, you can't sell people junk, especially in a place like this, where you're not like selling stuff through a retail store, like you know all your customers and yeah, right well, even if you are selling through retail stores, you you don't want that bad rap. Yeah, yeah, exactly For sure.
Speaker 2That's neat yeah.
Speaker 5So what's in the future for River's Edge? A lot more learning, a lot more learning, a lot more learning.
Speaker 3You can't stop learning, Like when it comes to call making, if you think you know it all you shouldn't be doing it.
Speaker 2Well, I see you get into predator calls too, a little bit the diaphragm ones.
Speaker 3I do have rabbit squealers.
Speaker 2Okay.
Speaker 3Yeah, I've made some coyote calls diaphragm yeah.
Speaker 4Are they hard to make or just about?
Speaker 3easy, same as the turkey Just playing around with it. It's just different thicknesses, latex and stretches. Yeah.
Speaker 2Well, yeah, that's what I was reading about too. It's just yeah, that's what I was I was reading about too. It's just yeah. This, how tight it's stretched, will greatly affect the same Like there's quite a bit to it.
Speaker 3The spacing of the latex makes a difference, really.
Speaker 2Okay, See, I thought they were all the same. No no.
Speaker 4I know mine were just stuck together there, but um, I've heard take all the same. No, there's a lot more to making a call than there is.
Speaker 3There is, and I've got a lot to learn and I'll I'll admit that right now.
Speaker 4Yeah, so how long have you been doing this for?
Speaker 3Uh. The diaphragm calls yeah. Two and a half months.
Speaker 4So you're fairly new to it. I, that would be considered fairly new Zach.
Speaker 3Yeah, but I've sent these diaphragms to guys in the States and I've gotten some really good feedback and I've made some adjustments. And there's more adjustments to be made and there will always be adjustments.
Speaker 2But it's going to be different in everyone's mouth too, when everyone prefers something different. I'm still trying to figure out what works for me. Everybody's looking for a different sound.
Speaker 1Yeah.
Speaker 3Yeah, like myself, I like a raspy mouth call Okay. Yeah, like myself, I like a raspy mouth call Okay yeah. And that's not raspy at all.
Speaker 2No no.
Speaker 3I should have brought some on the mouth calls.
Speaker 2When we're off here. I'm going to really warm her up and I'll see what you think of it after. I'm not going to put our listeners through that. But, yeah, no, it's been interesting just learning the different cuts and how I find there and then you know just maneuvering your teeth and tongue and mouth, how you're blowing the air through your mouth and across your tongue and across the call, yeah.
Passion for Hunting Conservation
Speaker 2Well, I know one of the champion callers in the States, Bo Brooks. He's got really big gap teeth and I guess people have made the comment before about his gap teeth. Help him call. He's like I'm not saying they do or they don't, but I'm not getting my teeth fixed. And then I was telling dalton that and dalton's got his front tooth missing. It's a fake one because of his brother with a hockey thing. Dalton's like so if I took my tooth that'd be good. I'm like you might be you might be.
Speaker 3This guy probably has thousands and thousands and thousands of hours.
Speaker 4Oh, yeah, just practicing yeah.
Speaker 3Yeah, like for me to grab my pot, call and play it and one of you guys to grab it. You're going to hear two different sounds.
Speaker 4Oh, I believe you have to play that pot call.
Speaker 2But when I'm all right, Zach, watch your shit. Talk there on my podcast.
Speaker 3When I make strikers, for example, if I make 20 strikers, I'm taking those 20 strikers and I'm playing them against five different pots.
Speaker 2So I've just played 100 calls, 100 different combinations, so the striker that you work on the pot call itself can can change the entire sound the length really the length of striker the diameter, the weight of the handle, it everything changes everything this is like such a science more in-depth science thing than I ever thought.
Speaker 3And I really don't know, anything about it, like I'm learning.
Speaker 2Well, that sounded good, so you know something about it. Well, it sounded good to us, yeah, yeah, if I was a turkey, I'd come into you.
Speaker 3All these calls have killed turkey.
Speaker 2Yeah, well, so it works.
Speaker 3So it does work.
Speaker 2But it's interesting. I mean, that's the cool thing. It sounds like it doesn't matter who you are, you'll never hit that peak, you'll always keep learning, yeah Right.
Speaker 3You've always got to be learning. You've always got to try to be better.
Speaker 2Even if you're a massive commercial company like there's always something to learn.
Speaker 4So really the length the diameter, the wood obviously you know what you use, yeah, so over time obviously you'll mess around with that stuff and I've already messed around with it like my number one call.
Speaker 3I told you guys how much I liked it.
Speaker 4My insides are completely different now and I still like that number one call so would you ever, so you remember making it and how you made it exactly?
Speaker 3I've got my recipes written down.
Speaker 4Even with my mouth calls so would you ever make that call again?
Speaker 2I absolutely could yeah that's Because I got the measurements, so I mean a lot of this for you has been trial and error.
Speaker 3Oh yeah, Everything's trial and error.
Speaker 2Yeah, that's cool.
Speaker 3Your thicknesses of your wall, your shelf thickness, your shelf width, yeah, your depth.
Speaker 2Yeah, yeah, well, yeah that too.
Speaker 3Yeah, I mean the depth of the, the back of the call.
Speaker 2Well, I see the back of the call. You've got a bunch of holes through it.
Speaker 3Yep, that's where the sound comes out, okay.
Speaker 5So it's going to have that. That was my next question.
Speaker 4And that center hole is how I connect it to the lathe. All right, what's?
Speaker 3the lathe. It's a wood lathe.
Speaker 4It turns and you turn.
Speaker 3Okay, back of it, make that's what the sound comes from okay so, all right, picture this as a guitar, an acoustic guitar yeah, I'm not a guitar player but you've seen an acoustic guitar uh, what's, what's in the front of the? Guitar. Behind the strings a hole? Yes, and that's where the sound comes out of, from the strings vibrating okay yep, so if you took some of those holes off.
Speaker 4it would change up the sound quite a bit oh yeah.
Speaker 2Would you ever Cause there's a hole all the way around it. And. But if you say you took two holes out, it completely it'll make it louder, quieter yeah.
Speaker 1Yeah, there's quite a bit bigger the holes.
Speaker 3Yeah. Yeah, yeah, it's going to change the sound.
Speaker 2Yes, that's pretty neat.
Speaker 4A lot to it, a lot more than I thought.
Speaker 2Yeah, zach, I don't think you gave it much thought.
Speaker 4And really.
Speaker 3I didn't either, until I got into trial and error.
Speaker 2Well, I mean, I hope people listen to this and maybe they do, but when they look at a call next time they're going to give it a lot more appreciation, and they do, because they'll tell me this isn't no Canadian Tire $20 call. Yeah, well, that's where the cut is I was going to say those handmade calls should be appreciated.
Speaker 3I've been told that today yeah, certainly. And it's nice to hear that people look at these calls and they see them and they feel them and they feel the quality.
Speaker 2And they appreciate it.
Speaker 3It's all handmade. Yeah, and each diaphragm call has been blown on by you. No, they do contain latex, though.
Speaker 5I'd tell people that Like yeah, no, I've tried them all.
Speaker 2Just wait to spit off but, it's new Enough. All right, you don't try them. No, because what is it? Was it the duck commander? They blow on all their calls.
Speaker 3Yeah.
Speaker 2Spit free of charge. Yeah, I was just like.
Speaker 5I have heard that I can't imagine. It's true, though.
Speaker 2I saw it on their TV show.
Speaker 5TV and what they do. Reality TV is not reality though.
Speaker 2Okay, we're going to have a discussion after this Well no, it's not though right.
Speaker 3Should buy one and get it tested for DNA.
Speaker 2Yeah, I like this thing's full of spit. You could fill a freaking glass with it. I've never used a duck commander duck call?
Speaker 5Never in my life, is that so are you gonna you think you'll get branch more into duck and goose calls? There's six at the show right now. Okay, I might have to come see you. Yeah, there's a change in my mind, there's only six, there's only six, there's only six.
Speaker 3I came with ten.
Speaker 2Oh, and they were only a half day today.
Speaker 5So what you're saying is don't have breakfast and coffee. You can probably have breakfast and coffee.
Speaker 3The show starts at 10. So have breakfast have coffee. But come to the show.
Speaker 2So if somebody's looking to buy a call from you, you ship all over North America and beyond.
Speaker 4I don't think there's any point, I will.
Speaker 2Do they have turkeys in Europe or Uzbekistan?
Speaker 4Probably not, I have no idea.
Speaker 2So where can they find you?
Speaker 3Well, they can find me on Facebook.
Speaker 5So Facebook message is a good way. The.
Speaker 3River's Edge Game Calls page yeah, or my phone number, just text, or call me, which is do you want to give that out on here?
Speaker 5do I have a?
Speaker 3business card. I don't even know my cell number well, yeah, I don't know we'll get it you sent to me.
Call Making's Continuing Evolution
Speaker 2I'll put it on the when we start the podcast there. Um yeah, because, like I said, I'm pumped up. I'm excited to use that. Now that you've made it sound, I've just I know how it's supposed to. Yeah, you did destroy it, but now I know how it's supposed to sound, so I've got that. You know, quality in my ears, kind of thing. But anyways, from one ken to another. Again, I can't thank you enough for coming on I'm excited to use your call it looks great till next time thank you.