Hunts On Outfitting Podcast
Stories! As hunters and outdoors people that seems to be a common thing we all have lots of. Join your amateur guide and host on this channel Ken as he gets tales from guys and gals. Chasing that trophy buck for years to an entertaining morning on the duck pond, comedian ones, to interesting that's what you are going to hear. Also along with some general hunting discussions from time to time but making sure to leave political talks out of it. Don't take this too serious as we sure don't! If you enjoy this at all or find it fun to listen to, we really appreciate if you would subscribe and leave a review. Thanks for. checking us out! We are also on fb as Hunts on outfitting, and instagram. We are on YouTube as Hunts on outfitting podcast.
Hunts On Outfitting Podcast
The Call Maker's Craft, Hearing The Sound Of Success
Ever wondered about the craftsmanship behind the game calls that bring wild turkeys strutting into range? This episode pulls back the curtain on the fascinating world of custom call making with Kenneth McDonald, founder of River's Edge Game Calls.
Kenneth's journey began unexpectedly when he drew a tag for New Brunswick's first-ever turkey season. Armed with just a store-bought pot call and determination, he successfully harvested a tom on opening day. That success sparked a passion that would transform his woodworking hobby into a specialized craft. "I looked at this pot call and I'm thinking, 'I could do better,'" he tells us, describing the moment that launched his call-making adventure.
What follows is a masterclass in the surprisingly complex science behind effective game calls. Kenneth walks us through the intricate details that affect a call's sound – from wood density and surface materials to the precise engineering of internal components. We discover how different cuts create unique sounds in diaphragm calls, why glass-over-glass designs allow for custom soundboards, and how even the striker's length and weight dramatically influence performance. For anyone who's ever used a game call without considering its construction, this conversation will forever change how you view these essential hunting tools.
Beyond the technical aspects, Kenneth shares the profound satisfaction of knowing his handcrafted calls have helped hunters across North America connect with the outdoors. "That makes me a part of your hunt," he explains, highlighting the special relationship between call makers and the hunting community. His passion extends beyond craftsmanship to conservation, emphasizing how hunters contribute significantly to wildlife preservation.
Whether you're a seasoned turkey hunter, a call-making enthusiast, or simply curious about the intersection of craftsmanship and outdoor pursuits, this episode offers valuable insights into an often-overlooked aspect of hunting tradition. Join us for this fascinating conversation, and you might just find yourself appreciating your next turkey call in an entirely new way.
Check us out on Facebook and instagram Hunts On Outfitting, and also our YouTube page Hunts On Outfitting Podcast. Tell your hunting buddies about the podcast if you like it, Thanks!
This is Huntsman Outfitting Podcast. I'm your host and rookie guide, ken Meyer. I love everything hunting the outdoors and all things associated with it, from stories to how-tos. You'll find it here. Welcome to the podcast.
Speaker 2:Hey, thanks for tuning in to this week's episode If you like it and, you know, I hope that you share it out. So a lot of times when we buy something, we hope that it works and does what it's supposed to do, but we usually don't look into how it's built, what makes it work and everything that goes together with it. Well, today on the podcast we are talking to animal call maker Kenneth McDonald and get a behind the scenes chat into the call making world, along with getting to know him and why he started doing it. We also get into some turkey hunting talk and near the end of the podcast you will hear how my turkey calling needs some serious practice. I'm working on it. You also hear two other voices on this podcast Dalton Patterson, who has been on lots before and is interested in the call making, and my nephew, zach, who happened to be down visiting and is learning about hunting in general. So enjoy. So, from one Ken to another great name, and I'm excited to have you on.
Speaker 2:How did you get into hunting? Have you always been hunting? One Ken to another great name and, uh, I'm excited to have you on. Uh, how did you get? How'd you get into hunting? Have you always been hunting, or did the calls come second?
Speaker 3:I've always loved the woods. I always loved being in the woods, uh, up and down the streams in South Hampton. Uh, dream to the day I could go bird hunting. Uh my grandfather was a hunter not a good hunter, but he was a hunter Hunter nonetheless yeah. I showed him up when it come to partridge when I turned 14, but uh, yeah no, I've always, always, loved the woods and always dreamed of being in the woods when I was young, so you've always had a passion for it. I've always had a passion for it, yeah.
Speaker 2:Yeah.
Speaker 3:So you grew up in, uh, was it kind of central? Okay, yeah, sure, sure.
Speaker 2:Yeah, that works. Yeah, Um, so you've always, you've always been in the woods and then you know, so you make game calls there's edge game calls. Um so, how, like I was just saying, I'm curious how does somebody you know you hear these animals talking in the woods? You're like I'm going to try to mimic that.
Speaker 3:But, what?
Speaker 2:what got you to do it?
Speaker 3:Well, I've always loved woodworking, always love work woodworking, like throughout high school love shop class. So in 2021, I drew a tag for the first ever season here in New Brunswick. No idea anything about turkey hunting, yep. Um, I think the draw was Sunday night at 1201. I was off Monday.
Speaker 2:And there was for New Brunswick. I mean, that was the first year turkey hunting. There wasn't many tags. No, your odds were slim.
Speaker 3:I think there was 500, maybe, maybe, if that. So I was off that Monday of the draw and I run right to Canadian Tire. Yeah, I bought a choke for my 870.
Speaker 1:Yeah.
Speaker 3:Turkey choke and a Primo's pot call.
Speaker 2:Okay.
Speaker 3:Yeah, and scratched the call up.
Speaker 2:The old classic Primo's. All I could do was Yelps on it.
Speaker 3:Yeah, that's all I could do, and I practiced from that day until night before opening you had it all worn out.
Speaker 2:It was more like helped instead of Yelps. Yeah, sort of thing yeah.
Speaker 3:And I had no idea what I was doing. I tried to find as much information on turkey hunting as I could and I asked a lot of questions, lots of YouTube videos.
Speaker 2:That's kind of what I'm doing now, cause I'm going turkey hunting for the first time this year. So yeah, youtube podcast and asking, podcasting, asking people. So yeah.
Speaker 3:So so I drew the tag. Opening morning came and I hit the field. And opening day I did it. Yeah, I called in a Tom.
Speaker 2:With, with the old Primo's, With the Primo's puck, call Yep.
Speaker 3:And all I could do was yelp.
Speaker 2:And that was enough.
Speaker 3:That was enough that that first gobble and it just starts punching you in the chest. Yeah, and I mean, everything went blank, except for me and that turkey. I had a video camera with me and I could have videoed my hunt. All I do is hit record. Were you in a ground blind?
Speaker 2:I was in a ground blind in the middle of a field. Yeah. So it's where I seen turkeys, but your first turkey hunt. I mean that, from what I've heard, like their eyesight's incredible, incredible, their hearing's incredible. They said that they could smell. We'd never get any and you thought I'm going to kick it up a notch, I'm going to try to even film it. Yeah, my first turkey hunt with this old Primo's call.
Speaker 3:So all right, and I didn't even hit record. Oh, really, did not even hit record, okay.
Speaker 2:Yeah.
Speaker 3:And it was exciting leave. I did it opening day for a season. Yeah, so I spent the next year looking at that pot call.
Speaker 2:Actually, it wasn't even a year, so you, you never grew up thinking like I'd like to make calls. No, I've never. I've never dreamed of it Really.
Speaker 3:Never dreamed of it. So I looked at this pot call and I'm looking at it and looking at it and looking at it and like, well, I could do better. I know there wood lathe, yeah, and I just I just went at it. It was early march of 2022 and I built five pot calls that day and I like the first one the most and, yeah, that's kind of the design I went with. Yeah, internally, because outside they all look the same or similar, but it's the insides that really make the call the call so how?
Speaker 2:yes, you got. So you got this Prima's call from Canadian Tire store here in Canada. And you just went, analyzed it visually and like I can make this you could see through it, because it was clear plastic.
Speaker 3:So you could see the two layers. Well, the top layer was crystal and then there was a layer of glass. You can see the pedestal and I'm just thinking like I could do this, and I actually designed one with the cricket app. Did you go on like youtube?
Speaker 3:I did go on youtube and I watched a lot of threads okay how they work and stuff yeah, yeah, but there's a lot of threads and if you take information from everybody, like the pedestal widths and heights and everything, and I just put something together and I like the first one I made.
Speaker 2:Okay, see, I thought, because I know you do grunt toots and all that I thought you started with that.
Speaker 3:No oh.
Speaker 2:Okay.
Speaker 3:No, that was for the off-season too.
Speaker 2:Oh, okay, yeah, that's how I thought you started so there's multiple seasons.
Speaker 3:You could have multiple.
Speaker 2:Yes, yeah so.
Speaker 3:I'm slowly expanding my line. Yeah, so the buck grunts were second.
Speaker 2:Yeah, so I guess we'll jump into the the buck grunts a little bit and then, you know, back to the turkey talk.
Speaker 3:What's the name of your business, stu? River's Edge Game Calls calls okay has to do with the riverine well, the wood lathe, I was overlooking the river. Okay, perfect right on the edge right on the edge of the riverbank. Yeah, yeah up st john river.
Speaker 2:Yeah, yeah, that's neat if I look to the right.
Speaker 3:I can see the mactaquack dam straight down. I see the fish hatchery in the water that's a good work woodworking spot.
Speaker 2:Yeah, yeah, yeah, I wouldn't get much done.
Speaker 3:It's like looking at the fish look at the day better name's Edge. I'm on the edge of the river, yeah, yeah.
Speaker 2:And it's easy to remember and stuff. So, all right, well, let's, let's. Like I said, I want to get back into the turkey stuff for a while. But how did you the buck grunts? How did that come about?
Speaker 3:Well, I want to be a deer hunter.
Speaker 2:Okay, yeah, no-transcript you had I just called from canadian tire, walmart or whatever. You just kind of analyzed it and like I can make it no I, just I.
Speaker 3:I, we've all seen them, we've all had them. Yeah, the cheap buck grunts from canadian tire and I actually still have one, do you? I do too my grandfather's I got them yeah I'll never get rid of it. Yeah, but uh, just I visualized what I wanted to build because my tube is wood, where this tube on the Canadian Tire one was like a plastic.
Speaker 2:Plastic.
Speaker 3:Yeah, like what are they Generic yeah, plastic. Yeah, like a gas can yeah.
Speaker 2:Actually mine did taste a little fumey yeah.
Speaker 3:I think that's what they look like. Yeah, yeah, I think that's what they look like yeah. Yeah, Anyways, I wanted a one-piece buck grunt and I just I made one and it sounded great and people wanted them.
Speaker 2:Yeah, now with the buck grunts when you're making yours made out of wood. They're all custom handmade. Does the wood matter for those with the sound?
Speaker 3:No, I don't find the wood does matter with them more of them is is the reeds. And yeah, and adjusting the o-ring on the tone board, right, right, yeah, okay, probably the length of the tube would make a difference yeah, because what's?
Speaker 2:the longer it sounds like a younger buck and the shorter it's an older buck.
Speaker 3:I think, yeah, it would be deeper, more throaty if it was longer, yeah, so.
Speaker 2:Okay, yeah, I haven't used them a whole. Actually, the one that I call my bucket with this year. I was just quacking away on it like I was on Duck Commander, but that wasn't even adjustable. It's like a I can't remember the brand, but it wasn't even adjustable and he just straight rubber. But yeah, um, okay, so that's you got it, that's what you get into the buck. Yeah, yeah, no, that makes sense.
Speaker 3:Yeah, then there's rat squealers and there's squirrel calls and what else is? I've done some duck calls.
Speaker 2:Yeah, that's a whole other world too. The duck calls oh, yeah, yeah.
Speaker 3:Yeah, I'm not a duck hunter, so I'm.
Speaker 2:I don't know much about duck calls but just blow it like yeah, that sounds like a duck sure.
Speaker 3:I've bought the reeds and I've thrown them together and people love them. Yeah yeah, it brings the ducks out.
Speaker 2:Yeah, you fiddled around with duck calls a bit. Some of all my calls to to play on the podcast, yeah, um sure.
Speaker 5:Brought one for me to play with. Yeah, might've bought it.
Speaker 3:You coming to the show this week.
Speaker 5:Probably not.
Speaker 2:You should come to the show, okay. Well, that was a kind of climatic there, Dalton.
Speaker 3:Um, yeah, there's a sportsman show going on, then you're set up there this weekend. Yeah, the.
Speaker 2:Canadian wild Turkey Federation. And um cause, you also got into making the diaphragm calls.
Speaker 3:Uh, just recently. That's, that's very new to me.
Speaker 2:Yeah.
Speaker 3:Um, took me about 200 to learn how to use my press Really. Yeah Cause, yeah so.
Speaker 2:I just started, you know, playing around with those, but a month ago and I've, I've, I'm feeling better at it.
Speaker 3:It's like anything the more you use it, the more you're going to learn. And you're going to learn little tricks and little sounds, and you're just going to evolve and keep getting better.
Speaker 2:It's all about just playing with your tongue and your teeth and
Speaker 1:your lips and everything.
Speaker 3:Just learning how to make it talk yeah.
Speaker 5:So to a non. I would call myself a non-turkey hunter.
Speaker 2:I would too.
Speaker 5:A diaphragm versus a.
Speaker 3:Diaphragms are the hardest to learn, so what would be the advantage to them?
Speaker 2:Well, you're not moving your hands.
Speaker 3:Yeah it'd be the movement. So the diaphragm's hands-free. So if you've got a turkey at 50 yards and he can see you and you've got a gun in your hand, you can't drop your gun and start calling with the pot.
Speaker 2:Fair, got a gun in your hand.
Speaker 5:You can't, you can't drop your gun and start calling with the pot. Fair enough, that's where the mouth call.
Speaker 2:And also the fact that not everyone can do it, so you can say I called in with my mouth, that's right. Yeah, half of it is just ego. Yeah, well, yeah, okay, well I wouldn't say.
Speaker 3:I wouldn't say it's ego, it's hands free, yeah, you, you can't move when a turkey's looking at you see, I never even thought of that yeah, if you move, he's gone.
Speaker 4:yeah, he's so it's kind of like a two in one. It's in your mouth, you're gobbling at the same time as you can shoot him.
Speaker 3:Well, you're doing. You're doing yelps, okay, cause the Tom's gobble. So you're mimicking a hen.
Speaker 4:Oh, okay, yeah, yeah, I've never hunted Turkey in my life.
Speaker 3:Yeah, never, ever. So you're making is is the pot calls sound the best? Yeah, um, the box calls. They really reach out and they're easy to use. Okay, and the mouth calls the diaphragms. They're hands-free, so are you going to get?
Speaker 2:into the box, because you make everything else what are those?
Speaker 4:maybe eventually, okay, it's, it's all learning process yeah, yeah, it's all more finicky to make, or?
Speaker 3:I don't even know because I've never tried. It's all thicknesses and friction.
Speaker 2:I'm prodding myself in learning the diaphragm, being able to call a turkey with that, but everything I've read about it is the fact that that's why I wanted to get scratch calls, pot calls, slate call from you. Also, I wanted the nice custom one. It looks cool. And the fact that I've been told that you need that variety.
Speaker 3:You should have all the calls. Really, that's what I've heard. I don't make box calls, but go get yourself a box call. That's what I've heard. Yeah, yeah, like, use, use all the tools to your advantage, and it doesn't matter if you buy it from me or Canadian tire wear. Use all the tools. So, um, we're going to get into the?
Speaker 2:uh, so is it. Is it called a pot, call a slate call scratch.
Speaker 3:They're all pot calls.
Speaker 1:Okay, so then All those words are the same thing.
Speaker 3:So the calls I'm building are pot calls, but the materials in the call can change. Like you can have glass over glass, glass over slate, slate over glass, crystal over glass, crystal over slate, copper, aluminum, so on and so forth.
Speaker 2:Okay, aluminum. Like you scratch on the aluminum, I've got some aluminum ones at the show right now. Are those?
Speaker 3:like really high pitched.
Speaker 2:They're really high pitched Okay and some people really like that yeah.
Speaker 3:Yeah, I've got a couple of really nice aluminum calls.
Speaker 2:Yeah, yeah. So the one that you made me looks awesome, looks awesome.
Speaker 3:It's glass over glass.
Speaker 2:Yep.
Speaker 3:And that gives me the option to do custom soundboards, like I've done for you.
Speaker 1:Yes.
Speaker 3:Because if I put slate on this, we're not going to see your soundboard, right yeah?
Speaker 1:Yeah.
Speaker 3:And that's why I think people really love the glass on glass, because I can take my call and make it yours, yep, and people love personalized and custom.
Speaker 2:Yeah, Like well, like we were talking earlier, so I didn't know.
Speaker 3:you have to take sandpaper and wreck the front of the call with it Basically, and that's the way people feel about it.
Speaker 2:Yeah, but how you said, so some people get to, I actually I probably will get another one just to keep it all pristine and stuff Like I wouldn't even need a scratcher with it.
Speaker 3:I'll just I get you a different wood dowel. It's going to sound a little different that way you'll have two.
Speaker 5:Yeah, I cringed a little bit when you scratched it. I'll be honest, People do.
Speaker 3:At the show. I'll go grab a brand new column of sandpaper. They're looking at me, I'm just ripping right into it Just like nails on a chalkboard. They're like ah shit, that call's an $85 call and you're scratching it and we need scratched Like I'd love scratching.
Speaker 4:So once there's scratched that much, there are they. Uh, you do you need to scratch them again, or?
Speaker 3:uh, as soon as I rub my fingers on that, the oils off my fingers are going to fill in them grooves and it's going to go smooth. So it will need scratched again. Okay, okay.
Speaker 2:So so the way you had the call, you have it all pristine and looking pretty nice, but that won't work. So you, you do have to take the sandpaper, you do have to scratch it and give her a rub. Yeah, okay.
Speaker 3:Even like with the slate and the aluminum, you've got to scuff it up.
Speaker 2:You do yeah.
Speaker 3:Okay, yeah, but you don't uh, you don't use sandpaper on slate. Even with the Scotch, the slate just disappear. Oh, really oh yeah, like you could, if you, if you spend a day scotch bray, yeah, you can wear it through it.
Speaker 2:Really.
Speaker 3:Oh yeah, slate is so soft, huh, yeah. And then you get into glass, yeah, then crystals even harder. So that's where you get your higher pitches sounds.
Speaker 2:Okay.
Speaker 4:So, uh, what one do you the best? Like glass myself, I love the glass.
Speaker 3:Yeah, I love the glass over glass. Now I've I've guided hunts with glass and I've guided hunts with slate. They both work. Yeah, it's all, it's all preference. It's like cars. Yeah, yeah, we all like something different. We're all looking for a different sound. The slate is a little easier because it's naturally rough, so is one heavier than the other.
Speaker 4:Like is one made out of something different, that's a little one heavier than the other. Like is one made out of something different, that's a little bit heavier than the other.
Speaker 3:I think weight they're pretty close. Slate would be a touch heavier, but it's such a small piece You're not going to notice.
Speaker 2:All right, so you, uh, you, scratched mine all to hell, uh, no.
Speaker 3:So so what I can do if you're really fussy about? No, it's fine, I'll actually probably get another one. So would you mind you give her a little test run? So it's already scratched up. We scratched it up previous.
Speaker 2:So do you want me to move the mic here? I'll play with it. That's pretty cool.
Speaker 3:So that's some prayers, yelps and some, uh yeah, little cuts so you have to use it on the scratched part obviously, yeah, like I'm. I'm over here touching the other piece of the glass and nothing, nothing, yeah, so it's got to be scratched so is there a certain way you have to go with it, or uh, so you scratch it in one direction and you want to play across them scratches, so think of this as a musical instrument. You ever seen a record?
Speaker 2:No, you haven't Zach.
Speaker 3:What's on records Bumps, so the needle plays on bumps. There's lines. But then there's also bumps inside of it. These are the bumps.
Speaker 2:The bumps are. What kind of help?
Speaker 3:make the music sound. This is a musical instrument.
Speaker 4:Learning something new today, boys.
Speaker 2:I don't doubt it.
Speaker 4:Well, that's neat.
Speaker 2:So we were talking, you were asking Dalton this about like so that is bird's eye maple wood that the glass is in.
Speaker 3:This one is a bird's eye maple.
Speaker 2:yeah, yeah, so then the different wood is going to affect.
Speaker 3:Yeah, different density of woods is going to raise or lower the pitches.
Speaker 2:So what that's the most popular? The bird's eye maple. Everybody loves bird's eye, yeah.
Speaker 3:If you say bird's eye to someone like here, here, bird's eye, give me bird's eye.
Speaker 1:Yeah.
Speaker 3:Everybody loves bird's eye.
Speaker 2:Here's my money, yeah, yeah. But so you have other densities and all that and that will completely affect the salmon.
Speaker 3:Oh yeah, oh yeah, make them higher pitched. Yeah, yeah.
Speaker 2:No, that's neat. So you've been selling calls what all over North America?
Speaker 3:A lot in New Brunswick and Ontario, a few in Maine, some in Connecticut, Massachusetts. I've got one in Montana, one in Texas, one in New Zealand, montana and. Texas.
Speaker 2:I've got a buck grunt in Nunavut. Is there bucks to grunt in in Nunavut?
Speaker 3:There's not but as a call maker, I want one in every state and every province. Yeah, so I actually sent this one up there for free to an Eskimo, I don't even know the Eskimo?
Speaker 2:No, I thought they called things with their noses.
Speaker 3:Like you know, the Eskimo kiss A friend's husband works up there and I'm like here, take this buck, grind, give it to an Eskimo. And he went to their house and they were going nuts over it and said they're going to call in. It's like, holy shit, I've got one of it. That is cool. Yeah, it was a bird's eye, because I think I saw on your butternut.
Speaker 2:Well, I think I saw on your facebook you had like a tax and a map or whatever you were trying to get it yeah, all over, yeah, so montana, yeah, in texas. No, what do they have there for turkeys? If somebody will correct me, I'm gonna have a guy on again Walker, talking about Montana hunting. I think they're merriams, I'm not sure which species and subspecies are where All right, this is going to be really uneducated.
Speaker 5:Same calls for every type of turkey.
Speaker 2:I'm going to say yes, yes, as a completely uneducated idiot on this, I'm going to say yes too. But I've heard that some turkey breeds or subspecies whatever you want to call them, you've got to be a lot more chatty with. So I've heard that the Easterns can be a bit harder. Where you've got the Marians and stuff. You've got to be real yappy with them and all that.
Speaker 3:But Primos isn't building a pot called just for Florida. No, fair enough. They're with them and all that primos isn't building a pot called just for florida.
Speaker 2:No, they're building one, and it's, it's going all over. That would be the oslo, oslo no oslo, oslo, osceola, the real pretty one turkeys yeah, yeah, real pretty, I've seen them. We're boar hunting there. Yeah, you seem like man. It's just like a, a gay looking rainbow running by.
Speaker 3:So so far, to my knowledge, only eastern turkeys have been harvested with my calls, so so for me to have one of them, other species would be a milestone for me, so if somebody is listening to this and gets one. I absolutely, I absolutely want everybody to send me pictures of their harvest. If you shoot a buck with my grunt, I want to hear about it.
Speaker 4:Yes, you'd be proud of it, yeah.
Speaker 3:Cause that makes. Did you hear that?
Speaker 2:zach, if you end up, that makes me a part of your hunt. Yeah, I'm always a part of your hunt and that is very rewarding as a call maker? No for sure. Well, that's, you help accomplish what? Yeah, what you set out to do is mimic that animal and help, just because you don't pull the trigger. Yeah, it doesn't make it not oh, exactly, yeah, I'm a part of it, yeah and that's just a very rewarding feeling see, that's good, that's, I've got coonhounds upstairs, um.
Speaker 2:So that, yeah, I mean as a as a call maker. Yeah, it's really good to hear that means that, yeah, you're passionate, you're, you wanted you, you got into this for the right reasons. It's just being a part of that hunt and helping mimic that animal sound and bring it bring it absolutely, yeah, absolutely.
Speaker 5:So you weekend are at the sportsman show.
Speaker 3:Yep.
Speaker 5:Do you do any of the shows anywhere?
Speaker 3:I haven't, but I really should be doing some of these smaller community shows. Yeah.
Speaker 4:So you're selling those calls there too, eh?
Speaker 3:Yeah, the CWTF lets me sell calls at their booth. I come in and I talk turkey and I draw attention to their booth and help them out with their seminars.
Speaker 2:Well, it's great. I mean, the Canadian Wild Turkey Federation is a branch off from the North American Wild Turkey Federation, all that and it's good to promote it in any way, shape or form, just to have more turkey hunters out there for conservation.
Speaker 3:Well, cwtf isn't just turkey, it's conservation across the board. Yeah, just because we're Canada wild Turkey Federation doesn't mean we just care about turkeys, we care about all conservation. Yeah. So uh, if it's fishing, deer hunting, bear hunting, whatever we we love it.
Speaker 2:Well, that's, that's you know again. So I mean you have got. I don't know how we're getting onto this, but it's good. So you've got PETA and all that right and you have to know the animals and everything and don't protect the animals but, like we were talking, hunters do more for conservation than any group imaginable.
Speaker 3:We love the animals more too, we do.
Speaker 2:We want them.
Speaker 5:You can drive 12 Teslas at once and you're not going to do half of what hunters do for animals, but it means you just heard.
Speaker 2:if anyone listens to this, heard my coon hounds howling upstairs. You know I love coon hunting. Do I want to see more coons around? Yeah, I do. Actually, I don't hate them at all.
Speaker 5:I love hunting them. I love seeing coons.
Speaker 3:I love seeing them right Bear have such a bad rap. I've shot, I've killed bear, but I won't shoot a bear, just shoot a bear. I love watching bear and I spend more time watching live bear while hunting than I've actually harvested.
Speaker 1:Really Absolutely, and that's normal.
Speaker 3:I will go bear hunting just to get him within 14 yards of a bear.
Speaker 4:You'll look at a bear some days and just not even shoot it, oh yeah, absolutely, absolutely. Even if it's like a decent size eh.
Speaker 3:I've had bear walk under me and just just enjoy it.
Speaker 2:Watch it, you're you're there with nature, the ghost of the woods yeah, he doesn't.
Speaker 3:He doesn't know you're there. You've you fooled him. You've already won.
Speaker 4:That's pretty cool when you're hunting bear too.
Speaker 2:I find you're there. I can hear deer any day over a bear coming in, and then all of a sudden you just there's a bear. It's like how the hell did he get in?
Speaker 3:there, it's that silent noise. Yeah, I remember I had someone hunting with me and there were squirrels running around.
Speaker 1:Yeah.
Speaker 2:Oh, you can hear them.
Speaker 3:And they'd look over me like is it a bear, Is it a hunt? And I'm like bear's coming. And they looked and started laughing yeah Right, and I'm like no bears coming, Like get ready.
Speaker 1:Yeah.
Speaker 3:And they couldn't hear a thing. And it's just that one silent noise you hear. It's almost like a silent noise. Everything gets quiet, you can feel it, and that bear shows up in front of you.
Speaker 2:Yeah, I find, as humans, having hunted bear stuff, as a fellow predator.
Speaker 3:really, I feel you can feel it when they're coming in, you almost tune into it, yeah.
Speaker 2:Yeah, Because we're another. I guess you consider us like an apex predator as well, right, yeah, and like you say, you tune into it.
Speaker 4:You can just feel that there's another predator coming in, something's coming, yeah, like you say, you tune into it. You can just feel that there's another predator coming in here. Something's coming, yeah. Yeah, that's crazy for being such a big animal to walk up on you just like nothing.
Speaker 3:A bear knows every step it makes, Unless it's scared and it takes off running. A bear chooses where it steps.
Speaker 1:Yeah.
Speaker 3:Really. And if you bait a bear spot and it's a heavy used bear spot, you'll see his tracks going through the woods.
Speaker 4:He'll just keep using the same path.
Speaker 3:They will step in the same footprint time after time, it's amazing.
Speaker 2:Yeah. So, um, I want to talk to you a bit more about Turkey, cause that season's coming up. Yeah, fired up about it. Uh. So what's another? Like you've, you've been on quite a few Turkey hunts here. What's a really good, memorable one that stuck out, where you're calling it in with your calls?
Speaker 3:uh well, the first one with my call was with sean black okay yeah, uh, that was another opening day turkey.
Speaker 2:So you were guiding, he got his tag and you were kind of helping I wasn't guiding, it was.
Speaker 3:It was kind of like two people going out moose hunting yeah so I was calling and and he was hunting and he got educated that day and I learned lots too Okay, cause he seen them across the field and he went running across the field.
Speaker 2:I sat down on a rock. You think you can do that?
Speaker 1:You can't.
Speaker 3:No no you can't. But you think you can. He's going to kill me for saying that, but we both learned a lot that day, yeah.
Speaker 5:Wait, what'd you say his name was? No, I'm just kidding sean great great guy sean, if you're listening.
Speaker 3:We're sorry. He's gonna listen because I'm gonna tell him about this.
Speaker 2:But I mean, I've been in maine with a buddy of mine, like we're out bearhound hunting and then, um, just we got time where I was driving around they got so many turkeys in maine and like you see them, I was like I'm gonna get out of the truck and like run up to them or whatever, and he's like no, you're not, I'm like yeah, I am just open up the truck door and go, and yeah, they're gone yeah, like you can't run up on them.
Speaker 3:They're all doors even. But now there's there's yard birds that are used to people too, but they're not. They're not the, the crazy woods turkeys that that are hard to hunt.
Speaker 5:Yeah, yeah anyway, so continue your story.
Speaker 3:Sorry, so, anyways, sean black harvesting turkey opening day, and that, that tom coming behind us just screaming and spitting. It was hilarious because he was sitting beside me and I couldn't see, but he was. He was sweating and the sun was to our left and the turkey walked by our blind and you could see the silhouette of the turkey on the side of the blind and it was just, it was awesome Like that was. That was the first one I seen was witnessed with my call.
Speaker 2:So you, you did you have a pot call, yeah, calling them in, I believe that was call number 37. Okay that I made, yeah, and.
Speaker 3:I gave it to Sean.
Speaker 2:Yeah.
Speaker 3:Money. Can't pay for that call.
Speaker 1:Yeah.
Speaker 3:So it's, it's Sean's call now it's.
Speaker 1:Sean's turkey yeah.
Speaker 3:And I was super proud and we had a lot of good laughs up there and it was good it's awesome.
Speaker 2:So the biggest thing you've learned, like you said, turkey hunting is like you know just how well they can see.
Speaker 3:Oh yeah and stuff like that, yeah, yeah they.
Speaker 2:How did you learn to uh, to talk turkey? Like YouTube videos or just being out in the field Lots of watching videos, but nothing is like being in the field and watching them react.
Speaker 3:Yeah.
Speaker 2:Yeah. So, yeah, that's what I'm. Yeah, that's what I'm excited to start doing next. I've seen more turkeys in the past week than I have, but I've never gone out calling without being in season and hunting. Okay, yeah.
Speaker 3:So I don't just, I don't just fire up the birds with my calls. Yeah, so all my practicing is at home in the house, but it's when I'm in the field guiding or mentoring, that's when I'm working the call and seeing how they respond to the different calls I'm making.
Speaker 2:Yeah, so yeah, whether it's purrs or or yelps or little pucks or stuff yeah.
Speaker 4:Back to the call thing there real quick. Is it just you making your own calls?
Speaker 2:Yep just me Sole employee Employee of the month every month. Now I did let Wesley and Well, I saw Wesley Tebow. Yeah, he, he made his own.
Speaker 4:Diagram call.
Speaker 2:Shout out. I saw he made his own diaphragm call. So, all right, here's another thing. So I'm, I'm, I'm all new to this. I've been playing, I've got, I think, one two, three four, five, six different diaphragm calls playing around with single read, triple read and all that. But then the different cuts. Yeah, you want to get into that a little bit.
Speaker 3:They're all going to sound different, and it's not just the cuts. Well, how many?
Speaker 2:cuts. I mean you can cut it a lot of different ways. There's a million combinations.
Speaker 3:Yeah, so you haven't even get into stretches, cause you just go by, call it Canadian tire and you're getting what they sell you.
Speaker 2:Yeah, I mean so. I mean I got some off Amazon Um and I also got some from from nature's voice game calls shout out. That was a. That was a double read and they said that was a good one to start with, and they were right. Yeah, they were definitely right. Um, shout out, michael booth, uh, in west virginia. So now I've got into the triple reads they are harder to blow, but the sounds better, yeah, but so there's like your reverse combo cut your batwing, cut all that I mean.
Speaker 2:obviously, like you said, you can cut them a million different ways, but are there your standard?
Speaker 3:cuts. So a lot of the standard cuts are like the V cut, the batwing ghost. Those are your three most common cuts. Then you get into the combos and there's so many different modified cuts.
Speaker 4:So what's the cuts? Just change the sound and stuff like that It'll change how the latex vibrates.
Speaker 2:If you want it, right there above there there's a black pouch. Yep, right there, yep, so open that I'll show Zach quick, but to go even further than the cuts.
Speaker 3:There's latex thicknesses and how much it's stretched.
Speaker 5:Okay.
Speaker 3:So the guys in the States are so advanced compared to us because they've done it so long? Yeah, they're looking for a specific sound. So then they go to their call maker. They're trying out different calls, different stretches, different, to get the sound they're looking for.
Speaker 2:Yeah. So how did you play with my calls here? How did you come up with what you liked to make? I guess Just trial and error, really?
Speaker 3:Yeah, you just make a bunch and whatever is appealing to you.
Speaker 2:Yeah, and then I heard I was reading of stuff about the big thing, about don't let the reeds stick together.
Speaker 3:Yeah, that's. That's awful. I just posted a video.
Speaker 2:I'm just screwing with that right now On my page about that.
Speaker 4:So what's the reeds like?
Speaker 3:So these Layers of latex, yeah.
Speaker 2:So there's three layers there.
Speaker 1:The black stuff or the green?
Speaker 2:stuff, this stuff right here, it's different colors. Yeah, yeah, that's the reeds. So yeah, don't let them stick together.
Speaker 3:When they dry they will stick together. So you got to get them good and slobbery, and you should probably clean them with fresh water and keep them in the fridge.
Speaker 2:I've heard that. And even mouthwash, yeah, or you can put the mouthwash and stuff.
Speaker 3:And don't leave them in your car.
Speaker 5:Like the heat will break down the latex I'll first, and guys putting them in their wallet. Yeah, yeah, yeah, I probably have something in my wall.
Speaker 2:Really well, I'm a call maker. My wallet, I want my mouth nothing. It's disgusting. You want to put a hundred dollar bill in your mouth.
Speaker 5:No, that's the difference between you and me. They say money is the dirtiest thing you can handle.
Speaker 1:It's good, yeah, the reason hell, that's supposed to sound like turkey the reeds are stuck together, yeah what?
Speaker 4:in the hell that's supposed to sound like turkey.
Speaker 2:The reeds are stuck together.
Speaker 4:Yeah that doesn't really sound like a turkey, does it? That sounds a little different.
Speaker 2:No, the reeds are stuck together a bit. So how did you decide what reeds to, or what cuts?
Speaker 3:I guess, like I said, to Well, there's the standard cut, so obviously you're going to do the bat wing, the combos the. V split.
Speaker 1:And then if anybody wants anything, specific, you just cut them.
Speaker 2:But that, yeah, that's what it looks like, zach, it was just as hard learning the cuts as it was to operate the press itself.
Speaker 3:Really? Oh yeah, because you're cutting them by hand with fly tying scissors, oh yeah. So how do you get that curve in there itself? Really? Oh yeah, cause you're cutting them by hand with a fly tying scissors.
Speaker 1:Oh yeah, so how do you get that curve in there? Yeah, right, yeah.
Speaker 3:That's something you get to learn.
Speaker 1:And how do?
Speaker 3:you do it over and over the same every time, each one's cut individually.
Speaker 5:That would be the hardest thing. Yeah, make them all the same.
Speaker 3:I've messed a lot up. I bet couple hundred calls that have just gone to the garbage. But as a call maker you have to do that, you have to have your trial and error, you have to learn and you can't let something go to your shop that's not to your standards no, that's right.
Speaker 5:No, you can't sell people junk, especially in a place like this, where you're not like selling stuff through a retail store, like you know all your customers and yeah, right well, even if you are selling through retail stores, you you don't want that bad rap. Yeah, yeah, exactly For sure.
Speaker 2:That's neat yeah.
Speaker 5:So what's in the future for River's Edge? A lot more learning, a lot more learning, a lot more learning.
Speaker 3:You can't stop learning, Like when it comes to call making, if you think you know it all you shouldn't be doing it.
Speaker 2:Well, I see you get into predator calls too, a little bit the diaphragm ones.
Speaker 3:I do have rabbit squealers.
Speaker 2:Okay.
Speaker 3:Yeah, I've made some coyote calls diaphragm yeah.
Speaker 4:Are they hard to make or just about?
Speaker 3:easy, same as the turkey Just playing around with it. It's just different thicknesses, latex and stretches. Yeah.
Speaker 2:Well, yeah, that's what I was reading about too. It's just yeah, that's what I was I was reading about too. It's just yeah. This, how tight it's stretched, will greatly affect the same Like there's quite a bit to it.
Speaker 3:The spacing of the latex makes a difference, really.
Speaker 2:Okay, See, I thought they were all the same. No no.
Speaker 4:I know mine were just stuck together there, but um, I've heard take all the same. No, there's a lot more to making a call than there is.
Speaker 3:There is, and I've got a lot to learn and I'll I'll admit that right now.
Speaker 4:Yeah, so how long have you been doing this for?
Speaker 3:Uh. The diaphragm calls yeah. Two and a half months.
Speaker 4:So you're fairly new to it. I, that would be considered fairly new Zach.
Speaker 3:Yeah, but I've sent these diaphragms to guys in the States and I've gotten some really good feedback and I've made some adjustments. And there's more adjustments to be made and there will always be adjustments.
Speaker 2:But it's going to be different in everyone's mouth too, when everyone prefers something different. I'm still trying to figure out what works for me. Everybody's looking for a different sound.
Speaker 1:Yeah.
Speaker 3:Yeah, like myself, I like a raspy mouth call Okay. Yeah, like myself, I like a raspy mouth call Okay yeah. And that's not raspy at all.
Speaker 2:No no.
Speaker 3:I should have brought some on the mouth calls.
Speaker 2:When we're off here. I'm going to really warm her up and I'll see what you think of it after. I'm not going to put our listeners through that. But, yeah, no, it's been interesting just learning the different cuts and how I find there and then you know just maneuvering your teeth and tongue and mouth, how you're blowing the air through your mouth and across your tongue and across the call, yeah.
Speaker 2:Well, I know one of the champion callers in the States, Bo Brooks. He's got really big gap teeth and I guess people have made the comment before about his gap teeth. Help him call. He's like I'm not saying they do or they don't, but I'm not getting my teeth fixed. And then I was telling dalton that and dalton's got his front tooth missing. It's a fake one because of his brother with a hockey thing. Dalton's like so if I took my tooth that'd be good. I'm like you might be you might be.
Speaker 3:This guy probably has thousands and thousands and thousands of hours.
Speaker 4:Oh, yeah, just practicing yeah.
Speaker 3:Yeah, like for me to grab my pot, call and play it and one of you guys to grab it. You're going to hear two different sounds.
Speaker 4:Oh, I believe you have to play that pot call.
Speaker 2:But when I'm all right, Zach, watch your shit. Talk there on my podcast.
Speaker 3:When I make strikers, for example, if I make 20 strikers, I'm taking those 20 strikers and I'm playing them against five different pots.
Speaker 2:So I've just played 100 calls, 100 different combinations, so the striker that you work on the pot call itself can can change the entire sound the length really the length of striker the diameter, the weight of the handle, it everything changes everything this is like such a science more in-depth science thing than I ever thought.
Speaker 3:And I really don't know, anything about it, like I'm learning.
Speaker 2:Well, that sounded good, so you know something about it. Well, it sounded good to us, yeah, yeah, if I was a turkey, I'd come into you.
Speaker 3:All these calls have killed turkey.
Speaker 2:Yeah, well, so it works.
Speaker 3:So it does work.
Speaker 2:But it's interesting. I mean, that's the cool thing. It sounds like it doesn't matter who you are, you'll never hit that peak, you'll always keep learning, yeah Right.
Speaker 3:You've always got to be learning. You've always got to try to be better.
Speaker 2:Even if you're a massive commercial company like there's always something to learn.
Speaker 4:So really the length the diameter, the wood obviously you know what you use, yeah, so over time obviously you'll mess around with that stuff and I've already messed around with it like my number one call.
Speaker 3:I told you guys how much I liked it.
Speaker 4:My insides are completely different now and I still like that number one call so would you ever, so you remember making it and how you made it exactly?
Speaker 3:I've got my recipes written down.
Speaker 4:Even with my mouth calls so would you ever make that call again?
Speaker 2:I absolutely could yeah that's Because I got the measurements, so I mean a lot of this for you has been trial and error.
Speaker 3:Oh yeah, Everything's trial and error.
Speaker 2:Yeah, that's cool.
Speaker 3:Your thicknesses of your wall, your shelf thickness, your shelf width, yeah, your depth.
Speaker 2:Yeah, yeah, well, yeah that too.
Speaker 3:Yeah, I mean the depth of the, the back of the call.
Speaker 2:Well, I see the back of the call. You've got a bunch of holes through it.
Speaker 3:Yep, that's where the sound comes out, okay.
Speaker 5:So it's going to have that. That was my next question.
Speaker 4:And that center hole is how I connect it to the lathe. All right, what's?
Speaker 3:the lathe. It's a wood lathe.
Speaker 4:It turns and you turn.
Speaker 3:Okay, back of it, make that's what the sound comes from okay so, all right, picture this as a guitar, an acoustic guitar yeah, I'm not a guitar player but you've seen an acoustic guitar uh, what's, what's in the front of the? Guitar. Behind the strings a hole? Yes, and that's where the sound comes out of, from the strings vibrating okay yep, so if you took some of those holes off.
Speaker 4:it would change up the sound quite a bit oh yeah.
Speaker 2:Would you ever Cause there's a hole all the way around it. And. But if you say you took two holes out, it completely it'll make it louder, quieter yeah.
Speaker 1:Yeah, there's quite a bit bigger the holes.
Speaker 3:Yeah. Yeah, yeah, it's going to change the sound.
Speaker 2:Yes, that's pretty neat.
Speaker 4:A lot to it, a lot more than I thought.
Speaker 2:Yeah, zach, I don't think you gave it much thought.
Speaker 4:And really.
Speaker 3:I didn't either, until I got into trial and error.
Speaker 2:Well, I mean, I hope people listen to this and maybe they do, but when they look at a call next time they're going to give it a lot more appreciation, and they do, because they'll tell me this isn't no Canadian Tire $20 call. Yeah, well, that's where the cut is I was going to say those handmade calls should be appreciated.
Speaker 3:I've been told that today yeah, certainly. And it's nice to hear that people look at these calls and they see them and they feel them and they feel the quality.
Speaker 2:And they appreciate it.
Speaker 3:It's all handmade. Yeah, and each diaphragm call has been blown on by you. No, they do contain latex, though.
Speaker 5:I'd tell people that Like yeah, no, I've tried them all.
Speaker 2:Just wait to spit off but, it's new Enough. All right, you don't try them. No, because what is it? Was it the duck commander? They blow on all their calls.
Speaker 3:Yeah.
Speaker 2:Spit free of charge. Yeah, I was just like.
Speaker 5:I have heard that I can't imagine. It's true, though.
Speaker 2:I saw it on their TV show.
Speaker 5:TV and what they do. Reality TV is not reality though.
Speaker 2:Okay, we're going to have a discussion after this Well no, it's not though right.
Speaker 3:Should buy one and get it tested for DNA.
Speaker 2:Yeah, I like this thing's full of spit. You could fill a freaking glass with it. I've never used a duck commander duck call?
Speaker 5:Never in my life, is that so are you gonna you think you'll get branch more into duck and goose calls? There's six at the show right now. Okay, I might have to come see you. Yeah, there's a change in my mind, there's only six, there's only six, there's only six.
Speaker 3:I came with ten.
Speaker 2:Oh, and they were only a half day today.
Speaker 5:So what you're saying is don't have breakfast and coffee. You can probably have breakfast and coffee.
Speaker 3:The show starts at 10. So have breakfast have coffee. But come to the show.
Speaker 2:So if somebody's looking to buy a call from you, you ship all over North America and beyond.
Speaker 4:I don't think there's any point, I will.
Speaker 2:Do they have turkeys in Europe or Uzbekistan?
Speaker 4:Probably not, I have no idea.
Speaker 2:So where can they find you?
Speaker 3:Well, they can find me on Facebook.
Speaker 5:So Facebook message is a good way. The.
Speaker 3:River's Edge Game Calls page yeah, or my phone number, just text, or call me, which is do you want to give that out on here?
Speaker 5:do I have a?
Speaker 3:business card. I don't even know my cell number well, yeah, I don't know we'll get it you sent to me.
Speaker 2:I'll put it on the when we start the podcast there. Um yeah, because, like I said, I'm pumped up. I'm excited to use that. Now that you've made it sound, I've just I know how it's supposed to. Yeah, you did destroy it, but now I know how it's supposed to sound, so I've got that. You know, quality in my ears, kind of thing. But anyways, from one ken to another. Again, I can't thank you enough for coming on I'm excited to use your call it looks great till next time thank you.