Hunts On Outfitting Podcast
Stories! As hunters and outdoors people that seems to be a common thing we all have lots of. Join your amateur guide and host on this channel Ken as he gets tales from guys and gals. Chasing that trophy buck for years to an entertaining morning on the duck pond, comedian ones, to interesting that's what you are going to hear. Also along with some general hunting discussions from time to time but making sure to leave political talks out of it. Don't take this too serious as we sure don't! If you enjoy this at all or find it fun to listen to, we really appreciate if you would subscribe and leave a review. Thanks for. checking us out! We are also on fb as Hunts on outfitting, and instagram. We are on YouTube as Hunts on outfitting podcast.
Hunts On Outfitting Podcast
Maximizing Your Property's Deer Potential: Food Plots, Forest Management, And Smart Planning
Deer management extends far beyond the lush green food plots that dominate hunting magazines and outdoor television. With expert guest Tom Byers, we explore the comprehensive approach to whitetail habitat improvement that will transform how you manage your hunting property.
Tom shares his extensive background in deer nutrition and property management, developed through years of professional experience with deer farming and collaboration with leading whitetail biologists. He reveals why your prime food plot location might not be where you think - those convenient logging landings and clearings often lack the vital topsoil needed for productive plantings. We discuss the critical importance of soil testing, proper pH management, and why "lime first, then fertilize" should be every food plotter's mantra.
Perhaps most surprising to many hunters is Tom's revelation about forest management. A properly timed winter timber harvest that allows for spring stump sprouts can provide equivalent nutrition to a cultivated food plot - with significantly less cost and labor. We explore the strategic placement of nutritional plots versus kill plots, optimal plot designs that force deer movement, and how three-dimensional electric fencing can protect smaller plots until hunting season.
With summer planting season approaching, this episode delivers actionable insights whether you're managing hundreds of acres or just a small parcel. From soil selection to plot protection, we cover the fundamentals that will maximize your property's deer-holding potential while avoiding common and costly mistakes. The chainsaw might just be your deer herd's best friend after all!
Check us out on Facebook and instagram Hunts On Outfitting, and also our YouTube page Hunts On Outfitting Podcast. Tell your hunting buddies about the podcast if you like it, Thanks!
this is hunt sun outfitting podcast. I'm your host and rookie guide, ken marr. I love everything hunting the outdoors and all things associated with it, from stories, tattoos. You'll find it here. Welcome to the podcast. All right, thanks for tuning into this week's episode. We appreciate it, as always.
Speaker 1:So, for a lot of you listening, when I say managing your property for deer, most people the first thing that comes to mind is a lush, green, tall food plot, planted with all the good stuff you could think of. But what would that be? Where would it be and how big? What do you have in it? All kinds of questions. When do you even plant it? Do you even need one? Well, all those questions and much more will be answered by today's guest, tom Byers. With Tom's knowledge and plenty of his own hands-on experience, he delves into some of the basics of food plots for us, and we talk about not only green grass and dirt plots, but how proper forest management can provide more food for deer and keep them on your property than any field you can grow. With summer planting, starting now or getting ready to, you're not going to want to miss this one. Also, along with planning things out for your success, your dog food should be no exception If you're planning out for a successful training season for your best friend. To get them ready for some great fall hunts, they got to be eating right. That's why I proudly feed and recommend a nook shook dog food with their locally sourced ingredients, high energy content and a taste your dog will love. It's definitely worth talking to your local reseller, which can easily be found through their website. Go on nookshookcom. Type in your address. A reseller will pop up in your area with over. I think it's 800 across north america. Guaranteed there's going to be someone near you.
Speaker 1:Also, for the canadians listening to this that are, you know, do the americans have all the great guns and magazines and this and that they got a lot? Yeah, but we also have one for ourselves. It's the Canadian Access to Firearms. This is a magazine that they will send to you. Request it. What's in the magazine? It's all kinds of gun articles buying, all the shows that are going on in Canada, tips, how-tos stories. It's all in there Great guns, from new stuff to antiques. It's for the gun and outdoor enthusiasts and Americans and people from other countries.
Speaker 1:I think you guys actually enjoy the magazine as well. You can order off of it. I do enjoy going through it every time I get it in the mail. And if you guys are also looking to reach out to us, you can on Facebook Hunts on Outfitting or by email, huntsonoutfitting at gmailcom. All right, let's talk to Tom. Yeah, so, tom, I mean it's great. We just went out and we were on my uncle's property and then I showed you my food plot and it's great to have boots on the ground and someone with your knowledge and expertise looking at you know how to manage it properly for the deer and everything. So how did you get into, I wouldn't say just food plots, but deer management in general?
Speaker 2:I guess it was back in the 80s I guess when I started because I was hired by Fundy Deer Farms, fundy Group of Companies and we ran about 2,200 red deer on two different operations. So we did a lot of pasture management for red deer. And that's when I was hired under an NRC grant to look at adapting New Zealand deer farming to Canadian context and we did a lot of small trials and stuff of recuperative type feeding systems and all that sort of stuff. So I got into deer and nutrition a little bit more after that and nutrition a little bit more after that. And then after that was done I went with the department and then I got to know later years the deer biologist Rod Cumberland. My brother was the fur biologist at the time. He took over for Rod. Rod became the deer biologist and of course I had a great interest in deer and hunting and all that sort of stuff. So we got talking a lot and we got debating and then I had the opportunity to move back to our home farm in 2006.
Speaker 1:In New Brunswick, Canada. In New Brunswick, Canada, yeah.
Speaker 2:So we bought the property next door prior to that and then dad said hey, you know we need a smaller house, you need a bigger house and would you like to have the farm? And so we put the two properties together because they were side by side and so we had just a little shy of 300 acres there. So at that time, I mean, I had woodlot management plans done. I was Rod Cumberland was looking at starting QDMA with QDMA Canada Quality Deer Management Association out of the US.
Speaker 1:Yeah, because you said it started in Georgia.
Speaker 2:Well, I think their main base is there now.
Speaker 1:Because for American listeners, if you're listening you guys no one argues it here you guys do an excellent job of managing deer in Canada.
Speaker 2:Oh, great job yeah.
Speaker 1:I mean it, it doesn't it doesn't really exist.
Speaker 2:In canada there's some landowners doing it right that try with their plot.
Speaker 1:But I mean as a whole we do lack on that.
Speaker 2:Yeah, big time yeah, I mean they had some really good people down there. I mean there was matt ross was the biologist and Kip Adams is there and you know Joe and all the rest of them down there. So and then I took some you know deer stewardship course and that sort of stuff.
Speaker 1:Right.
Speaker 2:And I mean I had access to Rod, was good friends with Kip Adams and Matt Ross, and so anytime I had questions, I mean I just hit three of them up. Yeah. Yeah. So and my background is ruminant biology just their ruminant nutrition.
Speaker 1:So dear full ruminants.
Speaker 2:Yeah, they are okay, they do when people say all the deer are different and stuff like that, they act.
Speaker 1:Deer nutrition is the same as any other new right, so I have an animal science background but they process it, say like a sheep, yeah, cheaper ruminants, but like that, you know the pellets come out and they can take whole grains, versus cats have to have crushed and stuff like that.
Speaker 2:I mean, yeah, and, and even even with that, deer will utilize the nutrition nutrients better from crushed than they will whole okay, yeah like yeah, it's, it's just that simple.
Speaker 2:like ruminants are all very similar, let's put it that way yeah and uh, and I mean so back then. So once we got the property and qdma started in canada, we started qdma branch in brunswick. We got the you know the what was it? The for best branch, best new branch kind of thing and all that sort of stuff, and we had some people in there that were really keen on deer management, yep, and we had access to some of the best you know biologists in North America, if not in the world for whitetail, and so then we started managing the property for whitetail specifically.
Speaker 2:So now I talked to you know, at that time QDMA was was pushing for, you know, certain percentages in the North for perennials versus annuals and that kind of stuff, and I said, well, that really doesn't work for Canada, it's too it's. It works for northern type states, but not northern, oh yes, not the north short.
Speaker 1:We have a very short growing season.
Speaker 2:We got a long winter. Our highest losses are always going to be winter losses, so we need to uh plant things to manage for winter stress or late winter stress, not even winter stress, right? So our deer naturally in the Northern part of the province would migrate to wintering areas or DWAs and they would go to deer wintering yards, so the deer would concentrate in those yards for, you know, reduced snow depth and all the rest.
Speaker 1:Yeah, see people from the U?
Speaker 4:S and they don't listen to this, they're like what, but yeah, we get so much snow in areas in Canada that the deer congregate.
Speaker 2:It would be over the top of the deer's head.
Speaker 1:Yeah, they congregate together just to be able to wear down the paths and all that. It's a great place to hunt for sheds.
Speaker 2:Right.
Speaker 1:Yeah.
Speaker 2:So the southern part of the province, our deer, are more migratory in that they would go. If the snow depth gets deep enough, they would migrate to a DWA or wintering area. If the snow drops in depth they might migrate back, and they might do that two or three times over a winter period. So they're not yarding per se. For the most part, In the last five years we have had very easy winters.
Speaker 1:Yes, so they've stayed more than natural. So they stayed more.
Speaker 2:So I looked at all right, how do I get those deer in the best shape possible to go into a winter? And that if they leave the property, they will be the ones that survive and then come back. If the deer is going to die in in a wintering area or or yard area, it's not going to be the deer that are using our property, so those deer will come back. Yep, um, so it was a competition thing. So we started planting more towards, like I planted just about every food plot seed known out there to this point.
Speaker 1:But how did you? I mean, where do you begin?
Speaker 2:I guess is a very broad question, but and most, most guys use what they have, use what they have. So if you're looking at food plots, if they get a logging landing or a woods road or a back corner of a field.
Speaker 2:They'll usually try to use that because it's open. They're probably the worst places to put food plots. Let's say Okay, For the simple fact that if you're going to look at food plots, you want to plan on where you want it on the property. You need to look at the soil that you have, because you want good soils because it doesn't grow on on. You know mineralized soil, yeah, you want good topsoil and fertility and pH, so you want to pick a good soil or your best soils. So you want to pick a good soil or your best soils, but it needs to be huntable if you're going to use that for a kill plot.
Speaker 1:You need to get in, get in. You need to be able to get in and access it.
Speaker 2:It's the same as accessing a stand or anything like that the wind see where the winds are going yeah all that stuff needs to be taken into account where you're going to put your food plot. If you're just going to put it wherever you can, then you then it might not be a huntable plot. Now, if you're doing a nutrition plot or a large plot, let's say over five acres, where the deer are going to congregate to feed at night or late and usually you try to centralize that, A lot of guys will try to centralize that in the center of the property and then put your kill plots outside around that so that you're drawing those deer through those towards your central food source. So the kill plots will be moving through earlier.
Speaker 1:So they're going to go through your kill plot to get to the nutritional plot Okay.
Speaker 2:So your kill plots are going to. You don't want to hold them there. You want those deer moving through, stopping having a bite, checking for a doe or whatever it's about, and then moving past.
Speaker 1:Okay, so there's more than a food plot's, not just a food plot.
Speaker 2:A food plot's not just a food plot. And some guys don't even like if you have a nutritional plot, they say don't hunt your nutritional plots, put in a kill plot. A lot of guys don't have the money, money and time to do that in space. So whatever plot they put in, that's their, their plot. Yeah, so, um, you'll talk about you know, the poor man's plot and all that sort of stuff, where you're in the woods and you're going to use a rake or a tiller and you know it's going to be in the by yours.
Speaker 2:There's too much canopy cover and all that kind of stuff, like some guys will say oh well, I got know they'll use, so you got to pick your spot, pick your best soils, if you can you?
Speaker 2:have to look at what you have for equipment. If you only have a rake and a tiller, you're not going to be putting in a five acre food nutritional plot and a kill plot behind it and all that sort of stuff and stacking deer up behind it. You have to have realistic expectation of what you can do. You have to look at what your neighbors are doing. If your neighbor has, you know, 20 acres of corn out there, you planting three acres of corn is not going to help you.
Speaker 1:Right.
Speaker 2:You're going to have to want to put something else, because that's going to be the nutritional plot. You use that as a nutritional plot and then you have a kill plot on your property. That is something else.
Speaker 1:Plant something.
Speaker 2:Plant something unique that's not readily available in the area that you know they're going to like, and the size of your plot. Like guys look at size. So then you say, all right, I have an acre or I have three acres or I have an eighth of an acre. If you plant a highly preferred food source on an eighth of an acre, they're going to wipe it it's going to wipe, it'll never make season. My first food plot, I planted three quarters of an acre of and I heard soybeans was great.
Speaker 2:So I planned three quarters of acre soybeans. Our deer had never seen soybean so it got up about a foot and then the deer found the soybeans and they realized they like soybeans. Yeah, in three weeks I had no soybeans left that field and that was three quarters of an acre well, I've heard I think I've heard you say this before.
Speaker 1:Somebody said that you'd said it. Is that a big mistake? A lot of people make with food plots is making it too small.
Speaker 2:You're not looking at the deer density in the area right, because I mean if you have a like, if you got a 20 acre hay field there and it has perennials and semannials and all that sort of stuff, that's great. If you're going to put a sixteenth of an acre kill plot behind it somewhere and you've got 30 or 40 deer per square kilometer or mile either, or I mean that's not going to work.
Speaker 2:It's not going to work unless you put a highly unpreferred food in there. Yeah. Like guys are saying oh, I have great luck with cereal rye, that's because nothing touches it, the deer don't like it.
Speaker 2:It'll be green the longest, sure, and when everything else is gone it'll be green. So the deer might hit it then. But you're not getting it during the early part of the season or anything like that. Like there's all kinds of preferred foods out there, so you have to adjust the size of your food plot with how preferred the food's going to be. I tried to put a six of an acre plot of alfalfa in. I can't get it to grow because the deer just eat it. So and I worked that food plot. Like we cleared the food plot, we soil tested. Not many people, not a lot of guys. Soil test, was that where?
Speaker 1:you begin.
Speaker 2:You begin with soil testing after you pick the spot, soil test then you're going to say, all right, what design am I going to do this food plot if you're going to just make a square or a circle or you know, what you really want is is some type of spoke system or or obligate oblong system like a hourglass or something like that, that the bucks can't just walk down on the downside and and scent, check it out for does and never come out in the plot at all. Right. So if you're and most people are are putting food plots in to shoot a buck or to grow bucks, so you want to pick a spot that you can hunt, you want to pick a food plot design that that allows it to be hunted well, and the deer are going to come in, buck's going to come in to look, or he has to come in and then move around in order to see everything that's in that plot.
Speaker 1:Something to get them out in the open.
Speaker 2:He's got to. You got to pull them out. Yeah, like I've had one square plot uh that I put in and I've only seen one good buck on that plot when I've been hunting it and he never came out in the plot. I caught the movement down in the corner and he come out. He looked out in the plot and he could see everything in the plot and he turned around, walked away. Yeah, if he can check, sent, check that plot or visually check that plot, he doesn doesn't need to and he never has to step out.
Speaker 1:He's not going to yeah and expose himself. Yeah, yeah.
Speaker 2:So, if you want, if you want to, you know, change it up so that he has to come out, or he has to look out, or, or you know you have to make it huntable. Yes.
Speaker 2:Yeah, yeah. So then once you do that and you've got good soil and all that sort of stuff and you say, all right, well, do a soil test the biggest thing in at least this area in the north our soils are very acidic. Now they don't have that problem. In some places down south it's the opposite. But in the north, in New Brunswick, our soils are very acidic so we might pull out soil out of a forested area.
Speaker 1:It might be four, three, up to five With the soil health, I mean, what are you looking for for pH? You said about seven. Is that Usually everything those things can grow into? Seven?
Speaker 2:Everything grows. Let's say six and above. Okay, most all of our food plot seeds is going to grow at six and above. It's going to do best at six and a half. To, let's say 6.8 is probably the pinnacle. Okay, once you hit between that six, five and seven, then if you're too low, then a lot of the nutrients can't be utilized by the plant. Things get tied up in the soil Because think of it as a magnet. If you've got magnets and it's the soil, particles will attract the nutrients, let's say phosphorus or whatever and they bind them. Let's say you have, you know, know, your aluminum and iron in the soil is going to bind, uh, your other nutrients. So as you get a higher ph they bind less. And then as you, if you get too high, there's other things that that bind up your nutrients. Yeah, so you have to hit that sweet spot, and usually between 6.5, 6.8. 6.8 you only need really for things like alfalfa, something that is very sensitive to that nutrient. Other things like oats, you can get away with lower pHs.
Speaker 1:Yeah, they're growing asphalt.
Speaker 2:Yeah, you give oats enough water and you can grow them on top of the soil, kind of thing, yeah, now, that's not ideal, yeah, but you understand. So that's six, five, six, eight is is probably our we'd like to see it in there, yeah, and so if I take new ground out of a woodlot, first thing you do is get a soil sample, add your lime, you know, add your nutrients to your seeding um lime, our ag lime, takes about 18 months it's over a year before you realize the full really potential?
Speaker 2:okay, it depends on how fine that's ground, yeah. So ag lime takes about 18 months to to have full impact. So that's why they say don't test soil test every year. Yeah, soil test every other, every third year, kind of thing.
Speaker 1:Okay, I didn't know that before.
Speaker 2:So pelletized lime, hydrated lime, all that sort of stuff. It works faster. It doesn't usually last as long. Okay.
Speaker 2:Because it takes longer to egg. Lime takes longer to be fully utilized. But our soils, our heavier soils, will take more lime but they'll hold your ph longer. So your light soils will take less lime to adjust, but it it would need more lime more often. So I we have heavy soil so it takes about one ton of lime to move it about 0.3 on my soil. Okay for, okay For a lot of my soils, yep. So like some guys say, oh well, I only need two ton, well, I need eight.
Speaker 2:On some stuff I pull out, which is a massive amount for some like guys down south or out in the central.
Speaker 1:Yeah, Like that's unheard of, yeah, but for our soils here I mean that would be a normal and that's unheard of, yeah, but for our soils here I mean that would be a normal, and for people, I mean what the lime does with the acidity, it just helps more neutralize it. It neutralizes that, yeah.
Speaker 2:The acidity. So then your soils can. If your soils or your plants can then use the nutrients that are available in the soil, I tell people guys always say, well, I'm packing down you know a ton, half a ton of fertilizer. Well, if your plant can't take that fertilizer up and it can't utilize those nutrients. You're throwing money away. I always tell people lime first, then fertilize.
Speaker 1:Okay, and then, like you said, the soil test is going to show what kind of fertilizer.
Speaker 2:The soil test will tell you exactly what you need. Our soil tests are all. Go to an analytical lab and they will tell you have an S2 soil test and it tells you all the nutrients and PK requirements.
Speaker 1:It'll give you your lime requirements and it'll give you soil saturation stuff like that Cause you hear guys do that Like well, you know, I got fertilized, I got my food plot all fertilized. They never question the law, they never know.
Speaker 2:They don't know the pH and they just throw fertilizer and it's just their own good after bad.
Speaker 1:Yeah, you've got to know what it needs Make sure that you get a soil test.
Speaker 2:That's the first thing you're going to do. And then apply your lime as early as you can. And if that's the fall before, great. If it's the next spring, then do it. Then yeah, because it will work, it's work forward for you. And then the first year, like, don't expect to plant an alfalfa in there because you're not. Yeah, like when I did a food plot we've picked a site, we picked a design, we cleared the ground, got the soil test we limed it, and the first year I put in, I think it was- just clover and
Speaker 2:a little bit of oats. Okay, a little bit of oats. So that was the first year, because the soil wasn't sweet enough or neutral enough in order to grow alfalfa that I wanted to put in there. So I did that for a year, and then I did Nebraska the next year and then the third year I put in there. So I did that for a year and then I did Nebraska the next year and then the third year I put in my alfalfa. Mind you, it was plot. That was when I learned plot was too small. Yeah, because we run a fairly high deer density for our property.
Speaker 1:Yeah, or our deer population around in general, has been. It's good Doing well, yeah, in the south.
Speaker 2:Yeah, so we actually need to shoot a few does this year? We've been building our herd. Over the last number of years We've had easy winters.
Speaker 2:The last five have been great. Yes, so our losses have been minimal the last five. So once you get your soil sample, it will tell you on there how much lime you need to add and then you can decide what type of lime you want to add for how long you know. If you want instant results in, you know, go out and get pelletized lime, but you're paying double for it kind of thing, or whatever it works out to. Ag lime is is easy to get here, it's effective.
Speaker 2:You could get you know, but it does take a while to adjust. But that food plot presumably you're going to have for you know forever so you want to build those soils and pick the best soils. I mean you can't if you have good top soil? That saves a lot of mistakes.
Speaker 1:Let's put it that way, but get your soil sample and get your fertilizer.
Speaker 2:If you have good topsoil, that saves a lot of mistakes. But get your soil sample and get your fertilizer and the thing is, then you're going to say, all right, what am I going to plant? Everybody just wants to know what I'm going to plant.
Speaker 1:They don't care about the fertilizer.
Speaker 2:They just say well, I threw down some 10-10-10 that I had in the garage, kind of thing. They didn't do a soil sample, they don't know what the pH is and they just don't want to know what do I plant and what you plant is a loaded question. Is a loaded question because all that other stuff depends on it. Yeah, it's how big your plot is. How much pressure do you have on other deer? Where do your neighbors grow?
Speaker 1:What are?
Speaker 2:your neighbors doing. All those questions you need to answer before you say what am I going to throw down there? And it might be. You know I plant. I'm down to basically three, maybe four annuals and a couple perennials, like out of everything I've ever tried. I got down to those because I build for winter survivability. I don't build, you know, for summer nutrition. There's all kinds of green out there. We do a lot of habitat management through the winter and if you're not managing your woods there's not a whole lot of sense putting in food plots.
Speaker 1:Yeah, so that's what we were talking about when we were at my uncle's property because around him that had been cleared four or five years ago. And then he's got a spot cleared put in a food plot and then, uh, you were saying about how important I mean when people think deer management, food plots. You're thinking get the tractor out there, four-wheeler, whatever planting soil, turning it over, but you were saying the, the, chainsaw is the deer's best friend, like I know.
Speaker 2:People say you know food plots and and the and you know. If you look at how much food plot you're supposed to have versus how much woodlot you have is, you know that one to three percent and if you're going for maximum production is five percent of your land base should be in food plot. Well, there's a whole management of the woodlot before you get to that one five percent and now you can do it at the same time. No question, like you can say all right, well, I'm going to manage the woodlot and I'm going to put in food plots, but if you're not managing the woodlot, putting in an in a half acre food plot or an acre food plot does nothing for deer. It might be a fine kill plot for you or something like that, but it's doing nothing for your deer. For the herd in general so you can take.
Speaker 2:They've done studies where if you did winter cutting of a of your woodlot, all those nutrients from from your tree after it goes dormant up here it goes down into the root system. You cut those in the wintertime. The sprouts that you stump, sprouts that you get the next year, that those the nutrition available from an acre of clear cut winter's clear cut is equal, will equal what you can get from a food plot.
Speaker 1:Yeah, see, I did not know that. So you're saying with my uncle's land, where it was cut four to five years ago, you said the best thing you could do is mulch it.
Speaker 2:And then let it come back again.
Speaker 1:Just as much well, if not more, than growing a food plot in the soil.
Speaker 2:A lot less work too yeah.
Speaker 2:A lot less money, a lot less work and you should be putting in clear, small, clear cuts, doing planting like I I plant around my food plots. Now I put I always put a little bit of hired mass, soft mass in around the food plots. Um, you know, on all my food plots I think I've, I've done that now because I it just adds to the draw power of the plot. Yeah, um, I don't want deer staying there forever, but a lot of my, my kill plots are fairly large too. So I kind of use them as a crossover between nutrition and, uh, kill plots, because some of my kill plots would be a kilometer from our main nutrition plot, or our ag fields.
Speaker 2:So it's at the backside of the property. Yeah. So I don't expect those deer to, I expect those deer to use some of those plots as as as nutrition plot.
Speaker 1:Yeah, and I mean, I never thought about it much. Like you said, it depends on you know your time, space, money, this base money, this, that and everything else. But about like when I took you to show you mine how I had yeah, like a kill plot, and then I showed you there's this other area where the deer eating and all that, and if they let it grow up, they're going to bed in there and then I'm going to bump them.
Speaker 1:You're going to bump them going into my stand, but if I keep it mowed, you know, brush cut. They're eating there, so that's their nutritional plot, and then they pass through your kill plot to there.
Speaker 2:yeah, they're not bedding there and going in reverse.
Speaker 1:Yes, yeah, so yeah, stuff like that. People, I know you think like oh, I'm just going to manage deer, I'm going to make a food plot. Yeah Well, there's a bit to it. It doesn't matter where you are in the world.
Speaker 2:Yeah, the biggest thing is, is they don landing? It's a terrible spot to put a food plot. It's great that it's open, but usually they pushed off all the topsoil into the surrounding bush yeah, and because you want to get down to hard ground on a log landing yeah. So unless you're going to bring in topsoil to put back there or pull that topsoil that they took off back out, you're going to have a terrible food plot that's going to take decade before you get anything growing.
Speaker 1:Well, that's the big thing too. That a lot of people don't realize is like all right, I'm going to clear this area in my woods to put a food plot in, and they don't know that. You know, the bulldoze is probably the worst thing you can do. The worst thing you could do is bulldoze that right, but I mean the stumps, the milk, because all that organic, really good topsoil is right, it's around the stump.
Speaker 2:So when I clear a food plot, I don't bring in a dozer. That's like you said. That's probably the worst thing you do. Get an excavator with a thumb, you pull those stumps out, shake them, turn them over, leave them. Now a lot of guys will want the food plot instantaneous gratification. You clear it, you get rid of all the stuff. You pile it all up or you push it out in the bushes and you lime it, fertilize it, whatever you do, and get your food plot. But a lot of your topsoil is your gold. I mean, that's what grows your plants, that's what keeps humans alive.
Speaker 1:Right, it's topsoil Like.
Speaker 2:I had one guy. He said oh my geez, my food plot came great. It was a foot tall and he was a head of Braska. I said, yeah, but it should be up to your waist. I mean, they don't realize how much they're not getting out of it yeah.
Speaker 2:As long as it's green, most guys. Basically, before I plant a food plot yeah, that I do. Now I take my time, I turn the stumps, I overwinter it, I shake them off the spring and the freezing, thawing and all that sort of stuff. They come out just like you know, beachwood and then like a driftwood, let's say they're that clean in the spring because I roll them a few times with the tractor and then I take them off. All that top soil is then there. All your organic matter is then still there. You put a bulldozer through and push it all out. You've just in in most places here, I won't say a lot of places, if they have deep top soils or or deep upper layers, you know you can't do that, but here our top soil is very shallow. We've got inches in the woods, yeah, and if you push all that out it takes decade or two decades, let's say, to build that soil back up and put stuff back in there.
Speaker 1:I don't think a lot of people realize the value of that.
Speaker 2:No, and that's the problem, they don't realize the value that they're getting rid of Mm-hmm.
Speaker 1:So so if you're able to keep that topsoil, there instead of all the lime. You maybe just need to add some fertilizer.
Speaker 2:It saves you thousands and thousands of dollars and years and years and years of work. Yeah, because once you take it off, you're trying to build it all back up. Yeah. And you need and you know, the further down you go and you get your soil. I mean you're into mineralized soils, yeah.
Speaker 1:You're not building that. What to I mean? In how close to proximity do you think it is important to have water, a water source nearby?
Speaker 2:See down south and stuff they always talk about putting in water holes and putting in, you know, tubs and ponds and all this stuff. New Brunswick is inundated with water. They don't have to go far, they don't have to go anywhere to get water. There is springs, ponds, creeks, you know, runoffs, everything in here.
Speaker 1:But for somebody that's not.
Speaker 2:For somebody in the south, or something like that you know, water is as good as a is as good a draw as anything. Okay, yeah. Especially in a dry, in a drought condition summer. We don't have drought here per se, like we might get a few weeks that we don't get rain. Yeah. And you may be, you know, a little bit more limited on where they go for water. It might be a femoral stream or something may dry up, but other than that there's still pockets in springs and everything else. Yeah.
Speaker 1:So if you can have it being for people listening that it does get a little dry, if you can have your food plot near water, it is quite crucial you'd find to keep them in that area.
Speaker 2:It goes hand in hand If you want to keep them in that area. It goes hand in hand. If you want to keep them in the area, yeah, see.
Speaker 1:Our vegetation, though, is so lush, it's so lush.
Speaker 2:Water's not an important thing for me. I'll put it that way. I have three ponds on the property, no question. We also have two small creeks running down through. We have umpteen number of springs on the property. The vegetation is even in drought condition, is still packed with water. Yep, like we don't have an issue with water. Now, if you want to add that to a plot area to make it one more thing that they don't have to walk down over the hill for, then that's fine. And, like I said, I've still got three ponds on the property and they're all located within spitting distance of food plots.
Speaker 2:Well, I did it for habitat. So the things associated in addition to deer management, kind of thing. We have a DU pond there. We put in a small one, you know, off a offshoot kind of thing, and it's next to a food plot and we had planted apple trees around it. Okay.
Speaker 2:So it was just another of those draws. That was another thing to add. Yeah, so we did the water with the apple trees around it. Okay, so it was just another of those draws. That was another thing to add. Yeah, so we did the water with the apple trees, we planted the, let's say, an acre and a quarter of food plot and then there was some old apple trees there. We cleaned it all around and then I took another half acre on the other side of open ground. That was early successional field and we turned it and and planted in oaks and you know, all those things working together make an ideal draw area. And then we have on the lower side of that there's about five acres of early successional field.
Speaker 1:Okay.
Speaker 2:So early successional field is. You know, I see all those other things as important as putting in food plots per se and habitat management. If you're not managing your habitat, then putting in a food plot is one part of an overall plan, so it's just one small portion of that. Are they important? Sure, sure. Do they add nutrition? Certainly can um they're.
Speaker 1:Do you find people put too much emphasis?
Speaker 2:on yes, just that yeah, okay they emphasize food plots because it's the buzzword. Yeah, they don't emphasize fawning cover, winter habitat, you know um early success, growth, all those other things that are as more important than having a food plot. Yeah, but guys want the food plot, they want something they can see and say I did that yeah. That's my spot. One thing I don't tell anybody now that we're on air, guys will want to plant in the woods. Yeah.
Speaker 2:They'll want to stand out in the woods and they'll buy a throw and grow let's say Deer on the bag. Yeah, yeah, yeah. And nothing grows without sunlight, without fertility, without you know proper.
Speaker 1:You get some shoots come up, though They'll call that a success and that's a success.
Speaker 2:Yeah, but I mean, that's not a draw no. I mean, and it's always the ryegrass or cereal rye or something's coming up. It's not your. You know you're not getting your nice clovers and brassicas and stuff, all that coming out. It's. It's the idiot proof stuff, because there's stuff in there that will grow with low pH. There's stuff in there that'll grow with higher moisture soils, yeah, but unless it gets sunlight, nothing grows.
Speaker 2:Unless there's seed to soil contact, nothing grows. So they'll go out there, rake a little bit, maybe throw down some fertilizer, and if they can get a little bit of sunlight in they'll get a little bit of green sheen. Yeah. I call it green sheen kind of thing, but that's not a draw. No.
Speaker 2:You're better off to take something like hostas, plant them out around your deer stand and protect them until deer season and then take your caging off your hostas, because hostas will grow in shade. Okay, yeah. So what are hostas? Hostas are what your wife was going to plant out in the flower garden along the front of the house there, the big leaf kind of vegetative plant. Okay, yeah, but they will grow in shade.
Speaker 1:So if I was going to do anything in in the woods at the deer stand. That's what I I plant hostas all around.
Speaker 2:My food plots too, so around the outside, that's a good idea, yeah because deer like hosta. They grow in in with minimal sunlight they won't. They won't flower and produce seed without sunlight, but I mean they will certainly grow. So if you protect those and and around your deer stand, then you got a green plant.
Speaker 1:Yeah, the deer, like it's just another one of those added things, yeah speaking, you know you doing, talking about that, when I was back in I don't know, probably I was young, middle school. I uh, I remember that you know you read the hunting magazines and everything and make a food plot and I bought, yeah, like it's like walk and toss kind of stuff and I did, I went out with the rake and I scraped up this area where there's like a little patch of clearing in the woods and uh, had like a bucket I'd gotten of lime and I just put that down and put that out. And remember I was, I was so thrilled like holy cow, like stuff's coming up, but it was, you know, as long as my finger, yeah, maybe, and I consider success. Yeah, I mean the deer wrecked it overnight, right, basically, and you know, realizing as you get older that was completely useless.
Speaker 2:And I mean, there's all kinds of shows that they're doing the poor man's food plot and they'll go in and burn and spray, rake it up and throw it down and, you know, do a little green sheen, yeah um and if if you're happy with that and that's what you want, then that's fine.
Speaker 2:But the more work, the more effort that you put into a food plot, the better your plot's going to be. There's no sense planting an acre if you could get the same amount of food in half an acre yeah, yeah, yeah, exactly so.
Speaker 1:But yeah, like I said, I don't think people take into account all the other stuff that goes with it, but the food plots nonetheless are a great asset.
Speaker 2:Yep.
Speaker 1:I say to have just another tool in the bill.
Speaker 2:It's another tool. Another tool, yeah, um, in managing deer or or killing deer. Um, managing deer or or killing deer? Um, and I, I, it depends, like a lot of guys will say, well, what do I plant? And it really depends on all the other factors. Like you can never tell somebody, just throw down clover I mean you can clover?
Speaker 2:is clover one of your more uh, fail proof kind of it is for this area because we're in the north and and and clovers do well because they're cool season, perennial or annual, yeah, um so we do well up here and we have lots of moisture yeah, like I said, moisture and cool temperatures. Clovers do great. Um so clover is one of our more foolproof.
Speaker 2:They say it's harder to establish, but clover is established really well up here, Now, whether you go with an annual clover or perennial clover, whether you go with red clover or white clover or all Sykes or whatever personally I go with, usually go with the Ladino. Clovers are ranked by height, not by species, so much Okay. Yeah, so you have your really short ones, like your Dutch that you see on the lawn, and then you'll have your Duran and stuff that are kind of mid, and then you have your ladinos, which are tall. Yeah, so usually you decide you know, what you want.
Speaker 2:And red clovers aren't as preferred as white and all sex is a little bit between the two kind of thing. But it was developed for, let's say, poor soils. Um, white clover does really well in wet ground or it can be flooded back and for short periods of time and that kind of stuff and uh there's some like the I think it was the berms we've seen. Okay that they're talking. Now that you know you can put in wetter areas and it's more of an annual taxes annual.
Speaker 2:So it just depends on what you want to do. But clover's a good, you know. Basic food plot item to do well here, and it just depends on what your how much ground you have Clovers, like I said clovers would be my preferred perennial after alfalfa.
Speaker 2:If I have the ground, the pH and stuff, you're planting alfalfa, I'm planting alfalfa. If I have the ground, the pH and stuff, you're planting alfalfa, I'm planting alfalfa. There is also bird's foot tree foil, which is what's called the poor man's alfalfa. It has better attributes as far as you know disease resistance, lower pH. It'll grow at lower pHs, wetter, all that kind of stuff. It's just alfalfa. It beats alfalfa in all those areas, areas, but alfalfa is much highly more preferred okay, yeah.
Speaker 2:So if you can plant alfalfa even disease and in bugs and all that kind of stuff, I plant alfalfa. If I can't, then um. I look at you know clover, clover, bird's foot or and chicory I mean all those good ones in there. I usually like to keep my chicory If I can't mow it, I won't add chicory. If I can keep it mowed and keep it in the vegetative stage, then I'll plant chicory in there as well, because the deer seemed to like it.
Speaker 1:Okay, on our property. Then too, I mean, if you're looking to build up your soil and all that, would it be a good idea? Even if you could plant oats, mow that throughout the summer, things like that, just to get that organic matter in there working in the soil. If you need the organic, matter.
Speaker 2:I mean, a lot of guys want a food plot with, they want to build their soil but they don't want to give up their food. Yes.
Speaker 2:So I mean I always heard you know plant buckwheat or whatever. I planted buckwheat on on fair amount of ground when I first started. I never saw a deer in my buckwheat. I mean there's an odd nip here and there. It's the same as our oats, like if, if I'm planting more highly preferred foods, they're not touching our small cereal grains, stuff like that. And then you start looking at at cereal grains in addition to clover and stuff like that, and then you start looking at cereal greens in addition to clover and stuff like that.
Speaker 2:Guys are always talking that started in agriculture because it was planting clover and then you would add oats as a cover crop over top because they said, well, it adds shade, shade, it keeps the moisture soil, all that kind of stuff. But and then they they've adapted that into food plotting for deer. The trouble is that grain crop was supposed to come off. It was supposed to be cut. Um, because what happens is when you come into the winter, I never had a better smother crop than when I planted oats. If you let it mature out, plant in spring, let it mature out and then die back. I never had such a clean seed bed is when I planted oats heavy and did that, yeah, so if you think you're going to plant oats heavy or with clover and then next spring you're going to have this awesome clover plot, yeah.
Speaker 2:I have a little bit of reservation around that. If the deer ate it, sure. Or you could take it off, sure. Or if you go light on your planting, great. But everywhere that those oats were are going to die and create smother on the clover and everywhere that they were. You have a berry patch now and weeds have as much chance of taking over that spot as clover does. So you're going to deal with weeds a lot sooner. Let's say, unless you're going to use a heavy weed program, unless you're going to deal with weeds a lot sooner, let's say unless you're going to use a heavy weed program, unless you're going to use grass-specific herbicide or something like that so that the clover can take over those spots and fill.
Speaker 2:So I don't like plant. When I do clover, I do clover. I don't put in small grains and stuff, so the deer have something extra to have that fall, or whatever the case may be. I plant. When I do clover, I do clover, I don't. I don't put in small grains and stuff, okay, so the deer have something extra to have that fall or whatever the case may be.
Speaker 1:Yeah, like we can spring plant clover up here just fine. Yes, you don't need to fall plant clover here, yeah, okay, yeah, that's interesting too, so you don't mix.
Speaker 2:I don't, I like. I would much rather take a food plot, strip it in two or three and strip plant stuff than I willed multiple species, because each of those seeds have their own specific ph requirement they have their own nutrient requirement.
Speaker 2:They have their own planting depth requirement. And if you take the you know I don't like saying idiot proof bag, but the kitchen sink bag, and throw all that stuff out there, something will grow sure, because no matter how deep you go or how shallow you go, or how much moisture it got or how much the fertilizer you put on, something in there is, is, is so it's gonna grow yeah, 90 of it.
Speaker 2:Won't maybe, but something will grow. Yeah, I don't want to waste time, fertilizer all that kind of stuff, when I plant something. I want that specific. I want clover to come, I want alfalfa to come, I want corn to come, I want soybeans field pea, whatever it is. Now I will mix, you know field field pea in something else and oats or whatever. But I mean, I'm very, I know what I want out of it.
Speaker 2:I don't want this general mix that I mean. Mixing brassicas together is a fine idea. You can have you know turnip grape kale.
Speaker 1:That's fine. Yeah, I mean, if you're going to do stuff like like that or you have a specific goal in mind.
Speaker 2:I mean, if you're going to put in an early, you know, some clover with or with a light oats or something like that, just to give the deer something because you want them at that time. But I mean you have to look at the timing when everything comes off too. Like why do you, when do you want the deer there? If you're putting in soybeans, let's say, in the spring, in May, they're going to be preferred through that fawning season kind of thing. You're giving the deer nutrition and then they're going to yellow off in August and then they're going to produce off in august and then and they're going to produce seed, of course, and then that's it, and the deer aren't going to touch them after that until they've hardened off. And then they come into the fall and and the deer are looking for that.
Speaker 2:The soybean, yeah, the bean itself. There's other things like clover. They're going to hit early. It's going to go dormant during the summer months here and it's going to come back on gangbusters in September, yeah. So that's a decent one. But by November that's everything's gone dormant. Everything's gone dormant by by hunting season. So if you're looking for something that's going to be there during hunting season. You need to look, start looking at.
Speaker 1:I mean, I look at the brassicas and soybeans and corn stuff because that's going to be there when I need it for gun rifle season matured, matured and and and preferred by the deer at that stage, at that time yeah, and looking at what they're, what they are thinking their nutrition is, because I mean they know what they need, their nutritional levels and all that you put cereal grain out there and it's not going to be available in november yeah yeah, not here not here yeah, I mean, you know cereal rye is still going to be green, but deer don't like it.
Speaker 2:Yeah, and if you want to plant that, that's, that's fine if you, if you have limited space, let's say, because you don't want the deer hammering an eighth of an acre and it being nothing there. Yeah.
Speaker 2:You could put an acre of brassicas in there and it took my the deer down on our place a few years to get onto a brassica. So that's ripe kale, turnip, that kind of stuff. It took them a few years to get onto brassica. The first year they never touched it until almost spring. Second year they started digging down through the snow in December. First year they never touched. It's almost spring. Second year they started digging down through the snow in in december. Third year they hit it in season. Now I can't keep brassica if it's if it's early, um, if it's less than an acre, yeah, I plant an acre and I'd have 14 plus deer there every day really every night, and it never made it past august yeah oh, so, um, and that was another thing.
Speaker 2:It was like all right, how do I keep, how do I plant something like that then, now, and with the densities that we have or we want to keep, and how do I, how do I keep that plot to the fall when I want to hunt it?
Speaker 2:so we started looking at, uh, three-dimensional fencing they keep the deer, so you can get solar pack or whatever, and and I mean it's, it's on all the hunting sites and that sort of stuff um, I first heard about it through qdm, yeah and uh, and they were looking at doing a trial hink down in george or somewhere.
Speaker 2:Anyway, I said, well, if it works there, it'll work here. So we actually started doing that through agriculture for farmers. We did a test field that was having high deer damage on on field crops and found that it would work great, yeah. So I said, hey, if it'll work for that, it'll work for food plots. So we we year we'll be taking three-dimensional fence. So if you don't know what that is, it's just we're using solar or electric Use like a tape, electric tape. We use half-inch tape or three-quarter-inch tape, I think it's 20 millimeter or whatever.
Speaker 2:There's two, it's basically two fences. So you have inside fence which has two wires on it. You run them at 18, let's say, in 36 inches, and then you come off three feet and you'll put a second wire at, say, 24. So they're offset visually looking at them, and they're offset depth. So a deer, if it can see through an item, it loses depth perception. So if you put a solid wall there, that whitetail, he could jump that wall. If you put a fence there, what happens is they run towards the fence, they get too close, they don't realize how far away from the fence they are and they'll jump and then they jump into the fence. So when we did raceways at the deer farm, the raceway itself is fencing and then we come into a solid wall and then the solid walls have to be higher.
Speaker 1:Okay, just because the deer can jump in, yep.
Speaker 2:You get a deer inside a fence and try to get it out if it's in the wrong spot, like they just keep jumping into the fence. So, um, with that three-dimensional fence, the deer have to be able to come out, see it, assess it and then turn away from it. And the best thing to do is bait them as well with some tinfoil and peanut butter or something like that, so they touch that nice wet nose on it. Yeah, but don't put it right tight to the woods, because if you put it tight to the woods and the deer comes out on a deer trail and it comes right up to the fence right off the bat, sees the fence stops and then the one behind it touches it on the rear end or something like that, and it jumps that fence, which is an automatic reaction to it. Yeah, automatic reaction to it.
Speaker 2:Yeah. And once they get in, because the deer behind is going to panic and say, oh, I got to get in there, I got to get in there and then they, they run through your fence and then you get deer in there. It it's a psychological barrier, it's not physical, right? Yes, so you want the deer to be able to assess it and move away from it without jumping it. So and it works great if you do everything right. Yeah, it does not work good if you've already had let the deer get into that crop. You want to put it up before the deer start using the crop?
Speaker 2:Okay, Because if the deer have started using the crop. They know there's food in there they want. They're going to push either push past it or jump it. Yeah.
Speaker 2:Because it's like I said, it's psychological. They can see it, they. It doesn't look right because it's offset both up and in, so they don't know how far the second fence is, in that they know if they can jump. So they basically just turn away from it because it doesn't feel right to them. But if you've ruined that whole psychological idea and they jump it, they'll continue to jump it.
Speaker 1:Okay, all right, so you've got to nip it in the bud, so you got to nip it in the butt.
Speaker 2:You got to nip it in the butt, do it properly and and it becomes effective. The more deer that see deer in there, or the more does that train fawns to get in there, the less effective it becomes in consecutive years. So you might want, not want to do it, you know, continually in the same spot either. You might want, well, you're going to move your food plots around. Don't plant you know you're not going to plant brassicas in the same food plot four or five years because you're going to deal with disease issues of you know, like club root and white rot and stuff like that. So you want to move your food plots around anyway. So put something in there that's less for a baby, that's a perennial, following years, and then move your three-dimensional fence and so they're not continually looking to get by it. I guess. Yeah, it's interesting, but the three-dimensional works fantastic.
Speaker 1:Yeah, yeah. That's a really good idea to help save your plot.
Speaker 2:Especially on the smaller plots, Like if you're doing a hunting plot and you want it available, let's say, during, you know, bow season or gun season or whatever, for a specific week you're going to be off and you want to take it off, put that, that fence on it early. Get your, get, plant it when you when this, when your crop is going to be ideal for that time, because you're going to, you want a crop coming off to be the most preferred when you want to hunt it. You don't want to plant something early and it mature out too early and then it'd be useless to you. Right.
Speaker 2:So when you want to hunt it, you want that crop being in its most palatable and preferred stage. So plant it accordingly, but put your fence on. And then, when you know, a few weeks before that, if, if you, if it's big enough that they're not going to mow it off in three weeks, then pull your fence off and then let them into that crop. So that helps with smaller food plots as well.
Speaker 1:Yeah, which it will be doing this year, because we have just too many. Too many, yeah, and let it get matured and have it ready, right, and it'll be ready and available, and then we just pull the fence off. Yeah, yeah, that's a lot more work than normal, just food. Yeah, yeah.
Speaker 2:But if you're dealing with a lot of deer and you want to have small kill plots let's say a bow plot that you want to be able to shoot across or something, then you know it's a six of an acre or something like that, and it would be especially on crops that you're going to pull off early like for bow season, or something like that that crops that you're going to pull off early for boat season or something like that. That's good.
Speaker 1:Well, tom, I can't thank you enough for coming out. We were kind of all over the board. No, it's good. Well, coming out and looking at my current food plot, my uncle's potential new food plot, and then coming on and talking about this, and I'd definitely like to have you out again, and I think this has given a lot more insight to people thinking. It shows there's so much more in depth besides just going out and planning a food plot.
Speaker 2:There is. It can be really simple or really complicated, but you should just do the basics it can all work.
Speaker 1:It can all work, it'll all work to some extent, yeah, exactly, to some extent it will be as good as the time you put into it.
Speaker 2:Yeah, exactly, to some extent, what you can consider a success.
Speaker 4:It will be as good as the time you put into it yeah, exactly.
Speaker 2:On that note.
Speaker 1:It's a good thing for people to keep in mind. We're spring here and people you know.
Speaker 2:It's a great time to get out there and break some ground, for sure.
Speaker 1:Yeah, exactly Thanks.
Speaker 2:Thank you.