Ep.109 Eastern Turkey Tactics

Eastern turkeys have a special talent for making you second-guess everything you thought you knew. One minute a gobbler is blowing up on the roost, the next he’s gone quiet behind an invisible line he refuses to cross. I sit down with Anthony, producer and host of Line Of Sight TV and a multi-time Canadian calling champion, to get beyond generic turkey tips and into what actually moves the needle when you’re chasing Eastern wild turkeys under real pressure.

We talk woodsmanship first, because you can kill more turkeys by listening than you can with all the calling in the world. Anthony breaks down how he enters a new piece, when “cutting and running” works, and why you need a setup plan before you ever hit a box call. From there we get detailed on situational turkey calling: soft tree talk with a slate or pot call, changing tone to mimic fly-down, building intensity until he’s cutting you off, then backing down to play hard to get so he has to come looking.

We also dig into decoys and turkey behavior that most hunters learn the hard way. Why full-strut tom decoys can scare birds late season, how a breeder hen with a quarter-strut jake can trigger a fight, and the underrated move of targeting the dominant hen. If you can cut her off and make her mad enough to investigate, the gobbler often follows. We wrap with scouting fundamentals like roost listening, dusting bowls, strut sign, and even what droppings can tell you, plus where to watch Line Of Sight TV.

If you want to hunt smarter this spring, subscribe, share this with a turkey buddy, and leave a review so more hunters can find it.

Check us out on Facebook  Hunts On Outfitting, or myself Ken Marr. Reach out and  Tell your hunting buddies about the podcast if you like it, Thanks!

Transcript

Cold Open And Welcome

SPEAKER_02 0:45

I love everything. I think fifty doors and all things. Okay, how's it going? Guys, gals, welcome to the podcast. If it's your first time here, welcome. If not, welcome back. Happy to have you listened to the first time. Besides the producer and host of Line of Sight TV, Turkey Hunter. And this week is coming on to talk just that turkey hunting. First we get into how Anthony started Line of Sight TV, and how we got that great opportunity to go about with that by some of its calling. And um and then we're going to talk about situational turkey calling, uh, some of its background on it. We're talking specifically eastern turkeys. We're talking about how to hunt them, where to hunt them, signs to look for, calls to use, and a lot more. If you're new to turkey hunting, if you're experienced with turkey hunting, that's gonna be a great one to listen to. And I'm sure you'll pick up some tips. Anthony is very knowledgeable about it. Also, this past weekend at the Atlantic Outdoor Sports NRV show. I was uh I mentioned before in the podcast that I was gonna be in a duck calling competition. It went okay. It went okay. It's first competition. It's a little nervous. Luckily, there are some people there that kind of like you know, talking to just calm down. Go up there, don't let your nerves get the best of you. And um there was some really, really good competitors calling there. I did not win or make top three, but from what I was told, once everyone's lying to me, uh I I did okay. I did all right, and it's a lot of fun. And uh I'd like to give a big shout-out to Jake Growth and Gun Dog Outfitters and their team for putting on an absolute awesome competition. They did a great job of setting everything up, getting the judges there. Uh Jake Coach did it, and uh Gun Dog Outfitters had a really nice booth at the show, and the show itself was very well done. I'll definitely be back again next year. It's great to finally meet a few of you that I've talked to online before to actually meet you in person. It was great. And also uh there's a few people there that I didn't get a chance to talk to, but hopefully will in the coming future identity. Next time, it's great to meet you. Oh, and if you're looking to get a hold of us to maybe come on the podcast or check somebody forward or just reach out to me, you can email me at hunt on outfitting at gmail.com or you can find us on Facebook at Hunt on Outfitting, or find myself on there, Kenmeyer. Feel free to reach out. Some of you guys have been, it's been great talking with you from all over. Uh Anthony, thanks so much for coming on the podcast. I know you've been busy. So uh you were saying you just got back from a wolf hunt. How was that?

Duck Calling Contest Recap

SPEAKER_00 3:44

Well, that was an experience. I gotta tell you. I um I drove eight hours uh north of my place here in Ontario and uh I went to hunt with a guy. He's a he's a real hard worker and and a great guy and and all that, and he did it, he did everything he could. But anybody who's hunted Timberwolves knows that it can be a low odds thing when you're especially when you're hunting them you know over um over a bone pile, over bait and that. And uh I drove eight hours to get up there. I got up there and it was uh the next morning I started my hunt and it was minus 33, and I got up and I got to the uh I got to the the little box blind that he has out in the bush. And it first we we drove my truck for quite a ways, and then we uh we unloaded a snowmobile, took the snowmobile, and the snowmobile we we went in 10 kilometers on the snowmobile, and then he dropped me off of this box blind, and I got inside the box blind, and it was so cold that the propane wouldn't burn, so I couldn't get the heater going. So I sat for 13 hours in minus 33 temperatures for you know, uh to try and see if I could get a wolf and and nothing happened. And then, excuse me, then the next um morning, um, you know, we we got the heater going. He dropped me off, it was minus 27. So uh and I sat for 13 hours that day and nothing happened. The next day I had to leave. So it was a quick turn and burn and uh and no no wolves, but uh, you know, that's that's the way it can be sometimes.

SPEAKER_02 5:20

Yeah, well, I've I've talked to guys before that do outfit for wolves, and they say, you know, a lot of places they don't even have specific hunts for wolves. It's like, well, if you get this, then you can, you know, fill the time wolf hunting or something, and they they treat it as like a some secondary hunt. But he's saying it's a hard hunt. I mean, wolves are tough to get. It it's uh it's an odd animal to treat as just a secondary hunt when the difficulty of actually being able to see one and get a shot off that one is uh is up there.

SPEAKER_00 5:52

Absolutely. Yeah, it's it's uh it they're uh they're not an animal that's very habitual. They don't seem to do the same thing over and over. Uh they you know he had a lot of pictures of wolves right on that right on that um bait bait site, and uh I mean it's so intermittent that you could go up there for a week and not see one, or you might go up there one day and and get one. So you just never know.

SPEAKER_02 6:15

Yeah, yeah.

SPEAKER_00 6:16

Uh and then you're going someplace warmer, you're saying you're going to Argentina uh at the end of this month, or yeah, like we're doing the uh we're doing the Toronto Sportsman Show for uh in a couple of weeks, and then when that's over with, it'll be throw my stuff together, and yeah, we're jumping on jumping on a plane to Argentina, and that's gonna be that's gonna be quite a quite an adventure because um I've been to Africa, but I've never been to Argentina, so uh it it should be it should be pretty intense. They I should be there right in the middle of the uh roar for red stags. Wow. And uh we're gonna be hunting black buck as well.

SPEAKER_02 6:54

Wow, that'll be uh that'll be incredible. So Argentina, do they have many predators there? Or is it I don't know much about I know it's uh top class wing shooting, um, but as far as big game goes, is it uh is would you compare it a little to New Zealand or it's much it's much hotter?

How To Reach The Podcast

SPEAKER_00 7:12

Um it's more of a well we'll be there kind of in their fall, and um it's uh it's it's warm, but uh it's not, you know, it even at that time of the year it'll still be kind of just temperate um climate. So it's not too bad. It's um it's almost like the American West, sort of as far as terrain goes, from what from my understanding. Yeah. And um as far as predators go, they don't have a lot of predators there, no. Um, but it's um I think there are, if I'm not mistaken, I think there are some cats there, like some mountain lions, but I don't think that they're uh really prevalent where I I'm gonna be. Um and uh there's a lot of red stag and a lot of black buck and those kind of things have been re- have been introduced into the area uh you know years and years and years ago, and they've just flourished. So it's all free where I'm going is all free range, and it should be pretty exciting.

SPEAKER_02 8:10

Yeah, yeah. Sounds like it's gonna be amazing. So, Anthony, you were the producer and host uh on Line of Sight TV. Uh I'm excited to talk turkeys with you, but could you give us a little background on uh how that all came about with Line of Sight TV?

Minus 33 Wolf Hunt Story

SPEAKER_00 8:25

Wow, that's uh that's quite a story in itself because I was um uh I was in competition calling, uh game calling, and uh I was I was pretty fortunate. I was quite successful in it. And um so I was at a show and I had just won uh the the Canadian National Deer Calling Championship for the second time. And I had a y I was at a show, you know, I was excited and I had my trophy and all that sort of thing, and and a young couple approached me and they said that they had been talking to someone else uh through the industry who uh recommended that they talk to me, and they said that they were gonna be um they're gonna be starting a uh a show. It was kind of revolutionary in in its time. This is quite a long time ago. And um they were gonna, it's it was called Hitman Canada, and it was it was gonna be it was gonna be a show where uh hunters from all over the country could send in their their footage and they would, you know, make episodes out of it and that kind of thing. So what happened was that they had people sign up and people drop out, and people sign up and people drop out as as things like that usually go. And I was kind of I kind of I didn't know anything about filming, and I said to them, Well, you know, I don't I don't know anything about filming TV shows or or hunts or anything. I don't even own a camera. So they said, Well, we'll we'll take care of all that. We'll we'll send you to a film school. So I went to a film school on a couple uh a couple of years in a row with Blaine Anthony. Oh, yeah. And um got to um got to learn a little bit about the production end of it and that sort of thing. And I kind of got intrigued with it. And it got to the point where they were having a hard time getting other people to produce anything. Like the people were having a hard having a difficult time actually getting anything on video. It's one thing to be a hunter, but it's it adds a whole new element of challenge when you're trying to film the whole thing. Um, so uh I ended up where I was supplying the majority of the footage, other than themselves. And then it got to the point where I hosted it a few times. And towards the end, I just thought, well, you know, why why don't I try this on my own? So I I, you know, they were they were all for it. They couldn't have been more supportive, they're terrific people and good friends to this day. And uh so I started line of sight TV uh about a year later. I went to had a concept and I uh I approached uh network and that kind of thing. One thing led to another, and as they say, the rest is history. Uh line of sight TV was born.

SPEAKER_02 11:15

Yeah, that that's uh that's really cool. Just all how just kind of all came about. It was definitely meant to be. Um so you went with Blaine Anthony, so he is the bear um bear hunting guy. What what's his show again?

SPEAKER_00 11:29

Uh well they used to be he used to be the bear, yeah, the bear whisperer at one time. Yeah. Yeah. And there was a few other he had he's he owns uh nature productions in the U.S. And he uh he um he produces a lot of different shows or ha produced a lot of different shows. I'm not sure what all he's doing now. Um we have no ties with like we're not we're not connected to to him anymore, but um but that was he was kind of uh he was kind of uh in uh affiliated with the the folks that I started with.

SPEAKER_02 12:03

Okay, yeah. Just learn learning the routes with cameras and all that, because uh it it is a whole new world doing that and hunting itself is not always the easiest thing either. So that with cameras, yeah. I'm sure it's a lot to learn. Um this past winter I attended your turkey hunting seminar and I thought it was really interesting, and uh we talked a little bit after, and I asked about you coming on the podcast sometime to talk more turkey hunting. So uh you're pretty experienced with it. You were the Canadian you won the Canadian Calling Championship, correct?

SPEAKER_00 12:41

Yeah, yes, a couple of times. A couple of times. Um back in the back in the 90s, actually, when uh so I was um I was involved back uh I started turkey hunting about four years they had before they had the first season in Canada, um, which I started in the U.S. and they they had the first season actually very close to me. Um the uh here in southern Ontario, I live about 25 minutes or half an hour from a place called Turkey Point. And the reason it's called Turkey Point is that it was the last refuge of the wild turkey here in Canada, in Ontario. And um, so that was where they found you know foot fitting to start the reintroduction. So they started the first actual um bird placements in in a place called Bacchus Mills Conservation Area, very close to Turkey Point. And that's how the whole thing here in in Canada got started, and that was with the uh National Wild Turkey Federation and the Ontario uh Federation of Anglers and Hunters. And so we kind of got that going. I started, I had already kind of planted the I had the seed planted or let's just say, because I I really wanted, I really enjoyed hunting uh overall, but I had never hunted turkeys until about four years prior to that. I hunted in the States and I was with a company called Stratton Outdoor Products, uh, and Dean Stratton was a world champion, deer caller and turkey caller, that kind of thing. And he was uh kind of mentoring me a little bit and got me interested in it. So um when they started here uh near me, I started right away right from right from the first day. So uh, you know, it was uh it was one of these things that I I knew instantly when I shot that first turkey in Pennsylvania with a bow. Um I knew instantly that I I this was what I wanted to do. I I I absolutely loved turkey hunting from that point on. It was it was just uh it was nothing that really captured my interest like that.

SPEAKER_02 14:50

Yeah. Yeah, you hear that a lot. I mean, I just got into it last spring and I'm I'm hooked. I absolutely love it and have a quite a bit of hunting for them as much as I can lined up for this spring. Um so we're you've hunted, we're gonna talk about easterns for this podcast, but have you hunted all the species in North America just about?

SPEAKER_00 15:12

No, actually, I've I've only hunted Miri I've only hunted Easterns and Miriams. Okay. And it's only it's it's not um, it's just because I I've never really pursued my slam yet. Yeah. Um, but I think that's something next year that I'm gonna chase. Um we we hunted in South Dakota and I and I hunted um Easter uh Miriams there, and my son and I each killed a couple of Miriams over there, but uh they're just you know the uh to get the slam was never really something I was I because to me the Easterns are they're the most in my opinion anyway, and I mean this is only my opinion, yeah. They're the most strategic. They're the they're the ones that yeah, they're the ones that you you kind of have to uh you really have because of I think because of the close proximity to humans and things like that, they're they seem to be the shiftiest. They seem to be the most challenging. So I've always been pretty enthralled with them, but I do I do at one point wanna want to chase that slam. Um it's it's a you know, just just to be able to say I did it, but uh I'm I'm uh Easterns are aware of that for me, really.

Argentina Plans And Big Game Talk

SPEAKER_02 16:23

Yeah, yeah. Well I was talking to a guy from uh Pistol Creek Calls in Georgia this spring, or this late winter, I guess, and uh I was asking about Marians because I might have the opportunity to hunt them this fall, and he said, Oh, I said Marions did they make you feel real good about yourself. I'm like, oh okay. But you you hear that is that the Easterns, like you said, they are they are the most technical bird, and and from the sounds of it, the smartest, really.

SPEAKER_00 16:47

Yeah, yeah. I I I agree with the guy a hundred percent. Uh Miriams were great. Um when we went to South Dakota, we hunted on the Oglala Sioux Indian Reserve uh there, and uh my son and I went out and uh we we danced another turn and burn. We drove down there 23 hours or something, and we got down there, and the next day we went out um and uh first morning we went out and I shot two birds, and then this in the afternoon my shit my son shot two birds and we were done.

SPEAKER_02 17:17

Just like that, a little different than the wolf hunt.

SPEAKER_00 17:20

Yeah, yeah, that's for sure.

SPEAKER_02 17:23

Um so uh I guess if we want to start say um I mean, because everyone you you wonder where to where to start, where are you looking for them. So I'm gonna give you uh I guess a bit of a uh landscape uh scenario and tell me where you would start. So it's gonna be farmland, you're gonna have fields, there's woods surrounding it, there's a bit of a valley in there, and uh say there's a there's a brook at the bottom of that valley going through the woods and the field a little bit. You see that land, you know there's turkeys there, but you don't see any when you get there. Where do you start and why?

SPEAKER_00 17:57

Well, I think that uh depending on the time of day, a lot of there's a lot of factors. It's something that you know you you uh you kind of have to take their temperature. You can what I do is generally how I s how I'll start off uh is I go into a place and I listen. I I've you know you can kill more turkeys by listening than you too than you can by by call all the calling in the world. Woodsmanship kills turkeys. You know, it's great to be a great caller and everything like that. But if if a person, you know, especially a person new to the to the sport um has a hard time, you know, with with the vocalizations and stuff, that shouldn't keep them from that shouldn't discourage them because um I've I've killed turkeys that I never call a sound to, you know, and I've just set up because I knew their routine. So woodsmanship is worth that for me. And what I do in those kind of situations is I'll go in and I'll I'll listen for a while and just see if they gobble on their own. And if they don't, then what I'll normally do is I'll I'll inch my way along and in a situation like you're talking about where there's a creep bottom and it's going through agricultural fields and stuff like that. I'll inch my way along. I won't get down in it. Uh not not right away. I'll kind of where I can stay quiet and I can stay a little bit hidden, and I'll just inch my way along and I'll make a few calls. Now they call that running and gunning or uh or cutting and running. You make a few aggressive calls, but the big thing is uh a lot where a lot of people run into trouble is they'll do that, they'll cut they'll because they see it on on the internet or they'll see it on TV. But what they're missing is that when they when when um the turkey when you call to a turkey and he cobbles back to you, he's saying, I'm over here, come and see me, come and see how beautiful I am. He's strutting where he is, uh he expects that hand to come to him because that's naturally the order of things. But if you if you call heart, like cut on the box call or you know, give a a a quick series of uh of clucks or cuts on the box call and or or a diaphragm call or whatever, and he cuts you off. When he if he cuts you off, he's basically saying he's coming to you. So I'll go along and I'll slowly, you know, make a little bit of gain a little bit of ground, gain a little bit of ground, try and cover some ground in a situation like that, and I'll just I'll cut on a box call because it cuts through the bush really good. It's got lots of volume. And um generally you can get them with a shock gobble. But what I'll do is I'll cut that sequence short. I don't go into a whole long sequence of Yelps because it's believe it or not, if he's off in the distance and you're calling on a box call, you could drown him out so he would you wouldn't hear him answering or he wouldn't hear him cutting you off. And then he could be on his way to you and you're on the move and you don't, you know, he'll catch you before you uh can get it can see him.

SPEAKER_02 21:04

Right.

How Line Of Sight TV Started

SPEAKER_00 21:04

So I'll I'll go in and just cut and and you know, kind of just you know, uh cut and run and and uh make but make real slow advances. And a big thing too where people get get busted doing that is that they'll just stand out in the middle of nowhere out in the open and cut on a box call waiting for a gobble. If that gobble, if you walk into a place cold like you're talking about, and you cut on a box call, that gobbler could be 25 or 30 yards or 40 yards or 50 yards from you, and before you realize it, he's on his way to you.

SPEAKER_01 21:38

Yeah.

SPEAKER_00 21:38

So the best thing to do is I always what I always try and tell people is is find a go into the spot, look around, no matter where you're gonna stop to call, look around first and say, Okay, if one cuts at 20 yards, I can dive to that tree right there. I can be in that beside that tree or set up and and and shoot 'em. Because you otherwise you get busted. And how if you ask me how I know that, it's because it's it's happened to me. You know, you learn these lessons as a turkey hunter. As you, you know, as you uh kind of mature as a turkey hunter, you'll you'll you'll get busted and things will go wrong and that's those are the things that you learn from. But um that that kind of a scenario, yeah, that's that sounds like it would be, you know, a little later in the day, that's that's ripe for um for cutting and running.

SPEAKER_02 22:29

Okay. Um so you you would move a little if he's gobbling right back but you know he's a little ways off you would try to sneak a little more towards him?

SPEAKER_00 22:39

No, once he's it depends on how far he is. Normally if he if he answers me right away, I'm generally going to set up and and try and coax him to me.

SPEAKER_01 22:49

Okay.

SPEAKER_00 22:49

Um if if he hangs up or if if for some reason he's you know uh land configurations are so important to these birds like they'll have you know there's and I've I've said it many times before you know there's times that you can uh you can have a Tom one day there's they're so weird. One day you can draw a line with your toe in the sand and he won't cross it. And another day he'll run through fire to get to you. It's just uh it's whatever's happening in his particular day or whatever humor he's in or mood he's in at that time and and it's funny because uh I've I've seen it with individual birds where I live it's all agricultural country and the birds kind of uh because they're small blocks of bush here and there uh the birds kind of get on a pattern and they're they can get to be uh almost to the point where they're a little bit I hate I'm always hesitant to use the word predictable with a turkey, but uh they're they're always you know they get to a point especially you know at certain times of the season in the spring they're um they get to where they're you can almost predict that what they're gonna do. They'll they'll roost in almost the same tree every night and they'll fly down and this goes on for sometimes weeks at a time. And so you know you can go into these into these places and and you know what to expect from that bird but uh other times not at all. Like they'll you know they'll they'll make a fool of you every time.

SPEAKER_02 24:22

Yeah yeah so uh a the big thing is in a way is to talk pretty to them as best you can and play a little hard to get act like you know you know they're there but if you don't feel like coming to them they've got to come to you. So that reverses how nature naturally is where the hens go to them and it dri does it drive them nuts kind of if they realize that a hen's not interested but they know one's there.

Why Easterns Feel So Tough

SPEAKER_00 24:45

Yeah if they uh if they hang up because they've got hens sometimes you've got to move on them but yeah like it's a going back to what you were saying but um uh yeah like it what I'll do generally um is I'll go in and excuse me and I'll once I've got them to to answer me, then if I don't hear a hen that's dominant um in in you know in the in the group with him or whatever I just hear him gobbling uh and he's answering me what I'll I'll generally do is I'll I'll slowly build the tempo up. So I'll I'll start off with just I'll take my I generally I'll go in and I'll in the mornings right at daybreak when it's just there's they may still be in the tree. What I'll do is I'll take my uh slate call or a pot call and um I'll even go so far if I'm set up on the ground and I'm sitting down and I'm ready to to hunt like say I'm on a ridge and he's on the other end of the ridge is I'll I'll hold my pot call above my head. And the reason I do that is because it projects those those that sound that resonating chamber on the bottom of that call is uh has holes in it and those holes are to project that sound out and I'll use that resonating chamber by holding it over my head it'll it'll kind of give a uh an old gobbler the impression that the hen is still in the tree she's still on the roof. So that I'll do that a time or two and then I'll switch and I'll I'll put it face in the ground or cup it in my hand just a little bit. So that changes the tone. And that's something that um a turkey hunter will will learn over time that um when you hear him gobble out of a tree you're gonna hear it and you'll hear it loud and clear and you'll get to know that sound and then all of a sudden that tone will change and you'll know okay that he's on the ground. So you kind of mimic that you're trying to paint a picture in his mind when you're calling to him so you'll mimic that with the pot call and I use the pot call because it's nice and soft and and unassuming and I start off with just little little tree calls. When I'm holding it over my head I'm just giving them little they call it tree talk and it's just little little small uh yelps and clucks and purrs and then when I hit the ground or when she hits the ground in my in my portrayal basically what I'm doing is I'm I start to ramp up the the calling a little bit and he'll start answering me and and ideally he'll be he'll get to the point where he gets more and more excited because he wants her to come to him. That's generally what happens he he'll pick a high spot or a spot over water because instinctively he knows that that makes his um he'll that'll uh make his his gobbles carry farther and so when he um when he does that she's gonna supposed to come to him well you're not obviously that's not gonna happen so you've got what you've got to do is you've got to make him think that she's getting excited getting excited getting excited you get him more wound up and it gets to the point where he's cutting you off now he's on the ground and he's gobbling over top of your calls. And when that happens now all of a sudden I start going the other way like you're saying to play hard to get what I'll do in that scenario is I just start calling less I've already got I've already switched to the mouth call from the b from the pot call because now I want that volume and I want that excited and I want to be able to cut real hard on it and stuff because I want to get him wound right up. And then once I get him wound up and I'm he's cutting me right off and he's double gobbling and all of that sort of thing, then I start to back it off, back it off, back it off and when I'm doing that I'm not only calling less frequently I'm calling softer I'm doing less aggressive calls and then I switch right back until and I'm turning my head away from him so that projecting the sound away from him he thinks that she's losing interest and she's going to leave. So he'll he he'll start to come to you and another thing I'll do is I'll switch back to that pot call sometimes just to get those real soft sounds until I get to a point where I'm all I'm doing is scratching the leaves on the ground and the odd little cluck. And by that time he's losing his mind and ideally if everything goes as planned he's losing his mind and he's he's coming to you and you got to be ready because he's gonna be coming looking for her. And if you've got a couple of decoys out generally what I'll do is I'll have um like a a breeder hen and uh a quarter strut Jake or something out and I'll have them about three feet be uh from each other and I'll have the hen in front and the jake in behind and what that does is when he comes into where he can see that all of a sudden he thinks well the reason she's not calling to me anymore is because she's got this Jake with her and he's got he's following her so he's in a breeding posture and so is she he ain't gonna like that he's gonna come in there and kick your decoy off the stage.

SPEAKER_02 29:55

Perfect.

Finding Birds By Listening First

SPEAKER_00 29:56

Yeah well so you you see them would you recommend much using a full threat Tom decoy or is that sometimes a little too aggressive looking well you're right Ken that that can be um I have tried I've so I've tried back in the uh back in the days of of the you know uh everybody was trying all these different things we used I started out when there used to be what they called feather flex decoys which were like this foam that you rolled up and stuffed in your pack but they they didn't look very lifelike. Yeah now where you are um in New Brunswick those kind of things will still work just fine because those birds haven't been heavily pressured but here in Ontario they've been heavily pressured for years so those birds all know oh no that's uh you know they they know them feather flex decoys better than we do so um they're not gonna go to it but what I do is I set those deaks out I with the as far as the the full strut decoys I always found and this again this is just my my findings um a lot of people have great luck with them they have you know they have birds strut right into them and stuff but if you watch line of sight uh in the episodes that I do on turkey hunting um you'll find that almost every well almost every single time the Tom will come in he'll he can walk he'll walk right past that hen he'll ignore that hen completely because the first thing he wants to do is beat that Jake up. Yeah um I found that like you said that the big um full struck Toms sometimes tend to be a little intimidating. So it's like this they they have gone especially especially from about mid to late season um they've gone through that whole time and every time they've gone near a hen uh there's been another gobbler there to kick the crap out of them you know so they're beat up they're tired they're exhausted and they don't want to take a chance on an injury so quite often uh I found with the great big strut full strut decoys and stuff in that latter mid to latter part of the season they they I've had them leave I've had them see it from a distance and go oh no I can't do this again you know and just take off now the quarter strut jake even the half strut is okay um but I like I've found that the quarter strut jake is for has worked the best for me over a long period of time throughout the whole season. And the reason for that I think is just that it's the most tentative um posture that you can find in in the Jake. So that Jake it he he he looks just like a Jake that wants to strut because he sees that hen right there. He wants to strut but he's scared to he's he's afraid because every time he's strutted you know he's gotten a beating so he's never been allowed to strut for a hen. And the hen is in the breeder position. So I always found that the the jake whether it be just a feeding Jake or a half strut Jake but especially the quarter strut Jake has really given me great results because it is so tentative that even if the gobbler that's coming to you isn't um isn't really a dominant isn't the dominant gobbler in the area he feels pretty darn dominant when he sees that little Jake with a you know three inch two and a half or three inch beard and he's he's even too scared to strut, you know. Yeah.

SPEAKER_02 33:33

Yeah yeah that's a that that's a good point. It makes sense. So if you're out in the field and you see a Tom out in the field and it's got all these tents around them they're just kind of eating and going working their way along I mean how I know it depends on the the turkeys and your calling abilities and all that but are you better off sometimes setting up to see what direction the turkeys are going and if they're heading back into the woods from the field to try to cut them off there. Or do you think you could lure either the Tom over or the hens and he'll just follow?

SPEAKER_00 34:03

I mean is there a way to get the hens worked up to like go over and investigate or yeah so that's actually that's a great question can um I uh I have a um so generally in a situation like that what I'll do is I'll I'll try and get around and get get in front of them and let them come to me a little bit so you're not pressuring them to come out of their way. You want to be basically you just want to inject yourself into their you know the their normal feeding uh route that they take just about every day anyway. And then you know it's like the old saying you know you're make them think that it's their idea. So you do that and and um then when you sit there and just listen to them for a while once again like that that listening is a is you know sometimes you're gonna do better by listening than by uh calling and do do the listening and just sit and generally there's gonna be one hand that is more vocal than the rest and she's gonna be the one that she's gonna be doing the odd key and stuff like that to get the others the other you know the younger polts or the hands to come closer to her and um when you see that hand when you get to that point where you recognize her then start cutting her off. What you want to do is you want to you want to make her mad. So I I again if you watch the show there's a few episodes I think two or three episodes where I'm illustrating that firsthand and some one of the episodes you can't see or a couple of the episodes sorry you can't see the hen but one of them you can actually see her and every time she starts to talk I cut her off same as what the Tom does to you when he's trying to when he's trying to insist that you get over there. Because that hen she doesn't want anything another hen coming in and disrupting her her you know kind of her lifestyle cramping her style so if she wants to keep that Tom for herself she's almost like the old fashioned the old saying the dog in the manger she doesn't want him to breed him but she doesn't want anybody else either so she'll you know she'll she'll get out there and she when she when you cut start cutting her off she'll get mad and when she gets mad because she's the dominant hen if you can get her mad you've got a you've got a you've got a great chance of killing that Tom because I've done it numerous times where you just start cutting over top of her cutting over top of her and what happens is that that fighting that arguing is uh it's you know it's it it's that Tom can't stand that. Um you know uh there's one where I was hunting with uh in one episode I was hunting with my good friend Phil Odell who owns uh canuck shotguns and uh canuck uh guns right and he uh I was guiding him on a turkey hunt here near my house actually and I got a hen going she was hundreds of like I'm gonna say four or five hundred yards away in another field that I I knew that her her and that Tom were in the corner of the field. And she I started with her and over time it took about 25 minutes but I just kept working her and every time she'd open her mouth I'd I'd cut right over top of her and she ended up at arm's length from me and Phil. And Phil was laughing he was shaking he was laughing so hard and then and Phil's an experienced hunter he's he he knew what to do. And I called it there was a tractor path through the bush like an old skidder trail and um that Tom strutted right down that skitter trail right to right to to Phil because the whole time he's over there he's he's hearing these two hens that are just going at each other back and forth back and forth back and forth. She'd cut and I'd do back and forth. And then it was it was um one of these things where it took a little time and a lot of wind but uh but we ended up but we ended up getting her to come uh she came at arm's length and it wasn't too long after that that he came to and that's uh there's actually like I say there's a few uh episodes where we make that um where we show that ploy and it really uh if you can get on that hen and that find out which dominant which hen is dominant and start cutting her off you got a great chance of killing that Tom and he'll come from a long distance.

SPEAKER_02 38:31

So you're better off you think trying to get her going than you are to try to pull him away from the from the hens.

Tree Talk And Calling Tempo

SPEAKER_00 38:39

Absolutely that's my in in most you know nothing if there if there's one thing that's absolutely chiseled in stone about turkey hunting it's that there's nothing that's absolutely chiseled in stone about turkey hunting. You know it's it's one of Yeah so I mean it not not it's no no one ploy is good is the magic ticket. But um yeah if you can if you can find one in the in the flock one hen that is is quite obviously dominant by her vocalizing. You know she's louder and more mouthy than all the rest of them that's the one you want to pick on he gets you pick a fight with her and you just keep at her keep at her keep at her and don't let her you know don't let her get the upper hand and sooner or later she'll keep at you. She doesn't want you there. She's gonna come to you and when she comes he's not gonna let her out of his sight and he's gonna follow her. Right.

SPEAKER_02 39:33

Yeah no that that makes sense I was wondering that because I've seen that quite a few times you look out in a field you're like oh look there's turkeys out there a bunch of hens and a tom or two and then you're thinking like well how do I uh how do I work this so that's a great yeah great advice for it.

SPEAKER_00 39:49

Yeah they they just are um pulling a tom away from hens that he can see is really really tough especially if there's one that's you know that if he's if he's kind of monopolizing that little harem there. You know if you've got two or three toms the odd time you might be able to get one of them worked up enough that and and if that happens if you can get to where you find um you've got say you've got three toms in with a in with a bunch of hens and there and that happens quite a lot here you'll get three toms that are strutten with a bunch of hens um watch their behavior a little bit see which ones are subordinate and you just keep keep going keep calling keep calling keep calling and don't get discouraged don't get the idea a lot of people uh in those situations they'll give up because the tom doesn't come to them and then they feed fade out of they feed their way out of sight. But that's happened numerous times to me and I know to my son Chris too where we'll get those those toms they'll feed out of sight but those other toms know that there's a hen over there. They don't forget that. So when those hens that they're with go to nest later on in the morning 10 or 11 o'clock in the morning and they're wandering around lonely either all three of them might come to where you were or where you are or else um quite often the the subordinate one will branch away and break away and he'll just kind of he'll sneak back on his own because he doesn't want to let that big Tom know the old the dominant Tom know that you know there's a hen over here. He thinks that's his secret but meanwhile they've all heard it. Yeah um but yeah they'll see he'll sneak back. Sometimes you'll get these you know they're not the dominant Tom but they may have a 10 inch beard too. So they'll come slipping back there and uh you know they'll um you know you'll be able to you'll be able to call them to you and you if you're still sitting in your setup then you're in good shape.

SPEAKER_02 41:56

Yeah yeah that's uh that's good advice too for it it just I'm just replaying some different scenarios from last spring in my head while you're talking about that. Yeah.

SPEAKER_00 42:06

What with turkeys too what so so i I have a question that so when you again when you when you uh had that happen to you did you wait a little while and just and thought okay well they're they're gone now and and kind of got up and went somewhere else or tried something else?

SPEAKER_02 42:23

I tried calling a bit a bit more actually. And um yeah but with with the group it was uh it was tired. I I didn't know what I was doing but um we had better luck one of the groups I saw that they're out in the field and I knew off to the side of that field there was this dirt road and that they would probably as they filter out of the field they would take that dirt road and sure enough one of the scenarios that did happen that did work and they came right on the dirt road just perfect.

SPEAKER_00 42:52

Great. Yeah well see you're you did you did the right thing really you kind of had a plan a lot of people just uh when they when they see the turkeys fade you know fade into the distance and and have paid no attention to their calling they just get up and go somewhere else or try something else or you know sometimes if you just either stick it out right where you are or like you did in your case where you're you know you kind of make another move you know make a move on them try and get them on a different angle um quite often that's all it takes too is just to to call them from a different direction. Get ahead of them again, call them from a different direction. It's like they they think that the hen's trying to find them then.

SPEAKER_02 43:29

Yeah yeah well it was a big field and then I thought I remember that dirt road so we got the truck drove around parked it and then ended up going down way on the other side of the field down that dirt road and it was that was probably half an hour later. And I didn't even call it just the quiet and turn off the game down there. It's a way always baths during the day when they have the opportunity to.

SPEAKER_00 44:04

Well, I mean again not nothing's chiseled in stone, but yeah, that's a that's a um a really really common behavioral trait and it and it increases with temperature.

unknown 44:15

Okay.

Decoys That Pull Toms Close

SPEAKER_00 44:15

So as as the uh as the birds get excuse me as the birds get you know it gets w hotter and hotter more sunny days and stuff like that and there's some dry sandy ground around yeah because they they you know it's like um they get out there and they they want to get those you know fleas and ticks and stuff off their backs and and that kind of thing and just instinctively um they know too that if they lay in that they get the the sand kicked up over top of them and stuff like that and they make a divot in the ground that's cooler ground. So they're you know they're they got those hot dark feathers so they want to they want to get cooled off and that's a great um that that kind of leads me to another point to look when you find the divots the dusting divots um you'll find uh around here a common place for that is in the in the uh edges of the cloud fields and stuff and you'll find if there's ground or sandy ground loose dirt or whatever around there you're gonna find strut marks because while she's there in that position she's a little bit vulnerable and that will that will kind of um it gives him it kind of almost arouses him a little bit he he feels like uh this is a perfect example she can't she's not going anywhere she's she's not distracted she's just basically there having a dust bath so basic essentially right right near her you'll find quite often um around here anyway more often than not you're gonna find strut zones you're gonna find that Tom's feet foot tracks one right in front of the other in a in a straight line like straight uh short straight lines and with the wing drag marks on either side yeah okay yeah um too with the turkeys you were you were talking before about the uh the difference between the the hens and the tomes they have different uh droppings sizes shapes right yeah so yeah when you're when you're on when you're talking about scouting yeah that's right Ken the uh so the the Tom um it's kind of funny but the Tom when he when he lays a dropping down it's generally uh a an elongated dropping and it has uh either a J hook on the end or a little bit of a ball on the end of it and I always you know I tell young hunters and new hunters that you you know that's a Tom because it's a J, like a Jake, you know? Yeah yeah but it's but essentially it it you know more often than not like uh that that is true. That's a um a common trait. Um I don't know physiologically why that is but that's just seems to be the way it is. And the hens droppings are more like uh the shape of popcorn. So you'll see you'll know the difference if you've got a bunch of hens hanging around in a spot uh or whether you've got you know a good gobbler or that kind of thing.

SPEAKER_02 47:27

Yeah that's uh that helps a lot when you're scouting in the spring and I remember I do remember you talking about that. I was like that's that's interesting.

SPEAKER_00 47:33

It's very interesting and and unique something to look for yeah there's a lot of little things like that that you know will help you um in your scouting and that but I'll be honest with you Ken again the listening thing with turkey hunting is such a huge part of it. Yeah um you know I'll go out when it starts getting close to turkey season here what I'll do is I generally will go out and I'll take my car I'll get up before well before light and I'll take my coffee and I'll jump in my truck and I'll just drive around to all my hunting spots and the way it is around here and I it wouldn't be that way for everybody but I can sit in my truck on the side of the road and listen with the windows down and and right at as the sun's starting to come up a little bit and you'll hear them gobble off the roost and you do that you know if I if I do that I'll hit two or three spots one morning and then I'll go to work and then I'll do the same thing the next day go to work next day same thing and get only different spots and then I'll circle back around. So every two or three days I'm listening at a spot and if that bird's staying staying around and roosting and and gobbling from you know um and which quite often is the case they'll find a little high spot in the bush or the edge of a pond or a lake or that kind of thing um they they like those spots and and they'll keep coming back to it and then you can kind of get an idea where he's roosting and in the middle of the day while they're a long ways from the roost you can go into the roost sneak in there real quietly and uh and just find the roost tree have an idea or at least be able to kind of localize where that gobbling is coming from if you know your your hunting area and again there's woodsmanship at work you'll find that um you know okay you can think to yourself oh he's on that little high spot in the bush it I've got birds over here like our area is not real hilly where I am and I've got birds that every year they roost in the same little three foot tall mound where the trees are you know it's but it's just a little bit higher than because instinctively they want their gobble to be the loudest thing in the woods. And you find out where their roosts are and then you can start piecing together their daily routine because you find their roosts then you find oh I I see hens here quite often in the edge of this field which is only a hundred yards from where that bird was gobbling in the morning and then you know you're seeing them dust bath which usually happens later in the day you know in another field and and you can kind of start you know again with woodsmanship piecing that together piecing that puzzle together so that you know um you know uh what their daily routine looks like and you can start injecting yourself into a vulnerable point in that daily routine.

SPEAKER_02 50:31

Yeah.

SPEAKER_00 50:31

Yeah so the the turkeys too come spring do you find that they generally when hunting season starts most areas do they generally stay around that area and also uh turkeys they're not like some animals where they're bed up during the day are they they're active from sun up to sundown correct um pretty much yeah they don't uh no that I not a hundred percent though Ken like they will they will especially on hot days and and things like that midday they may go into a marshy area or somewhere where there's a lot of blowdowns and things like that and it's a little maybe a little low ground where it's cooler maybe and it only takes a couple of degrees you know if it's a little bit if it's a warm day in late spring they'll go and they'll um they'll lay under deadfalls and things like that. And there I've seen them where they'll they'll be laid under a dead fall a deadfall just kind of wings stretched out mouth wide open panting with their tongue elevated just like a dog. And uh they're just yeah they're just cooling but they'll they'll rest there and and uh spend the midday hours there.

Make The Boss Hen Come Over

SPEAKER_02 51:41

Um hens will generally go to their nests in you know and be on their nests throughout the day um but um one thing that is pretty consistent is uh you know the gobbler's behavior is much more consistent well I shouldn't say much more consistent he's more vulnerable than a hen um during the nesting season because um he's he's out there um wandering around looking for hens because those hens are are ignoring them now they're gone to the nest they'll just filter off one by one if he if he had a half a dozen hens at first thing in the morning um by 10 or 11 o'clock they've kind of one by one filtered away and gone to their nests uh he's on his own he's he's he's vulnerable so um you know he he's susceptible to calling and and setups at that point um so and also just to I want to touch into calls a little bit how important do you think it is I know listening but if you are going to be calling not to be a one trick pony and have a bit of a variety like the box call the slate call the diaphragm i i they I know they all kind of serve their purpose yeah I I'm kind of a I'll be honest can I'm kind of a because of because of my um I guess my what you'll call my upbringing in the industry yeah I'm kind of a call junkie um and uh I I like I love calls and I and I just uh I mess around with calls and and uh I I don't know I couldn't even begin to tell you how many calls I have and uh I just now I I carry my vest and I when I have my vest on I have uh no let me think I have excuse me I have um three pot calls six strikers because every one of those pot calls I can get two or three different tones out of it and every striker combination I can get you know different tones from that I I carry at least two box calls generally one that's real high pitched and one that has a lower um lower register that's on a a more a low frequency vibration rather than a high frequency vibration and those I use for different types of terrain and I carry half a dozen or more diaphragms and maybe a dozen diaphragms on me.

SPEAKER_00 53:59

I find myself I do that every year and I have for you know I don't know how many years I've been on turkeys I'd have to sit down and do the math to be honest with you but um I've been doing that for so long and and I'll and I'll I seem to find that a lot of those calls stay in my vest and I hardly ever pull them out you know um and I've I'll have those few calls that I use every you know every sequence in a in a season. But for me it's like I've had so many times where I'll be calling to an old gobbler and he's hung up or he's stubborn or something and I've done some moving and different things and tried to you know tried different things and and I'm throwing the kitchen sink at him and he's just not he's not budging you know uh he'll gobble back to you every 15 minutes or something. He's not gone. He's there but he's just wait he's strutting he's just waiting for you to get to him and then I'll pull out that box call and blow the dust off it that I haven't used for you know for five seasons and chop on it two or three times and he'll just come barreling in. It's just for some reason something different that you know he he just liked the sound of it or whatever and and or and he he'll just come barreling into it. So I always you know as far as the amount of calls you have if you have a few good calls that you're that you feel confident with go with them. And you don't have to be a competition pre uh champion caller um I I've always found and and I I I I can back this up with lots of hunts you know I've always found Ken that that these that the the rhythm is more important than the actual vocalization.

SPEAKER_01 55:45

Okay.

SPEAKER_00 55:46

You could have a kind of a crappy yelp because I've heard ends you know where I I I I can think of one instance right off the top of my head where I was sitting in the edge of a field it was about by now it's about 10 o'clock I'd been calling to a gobler who'd gone silent and I kept thinking he he's he could come he could come here any minute I'm not leaving you know what I mean because he was hot for a little while then he cooled down and I'm thinking I'm not going to leave right away. So I'm sitting there in the edge of the field and I hear this hand I could hear this call. And when that Tom went silent he kind of did it abruptly and so when I hear this call I'm thinking uh I know that's why he went silent was because some guy was sneaking in here and I could hear him on this call I'm thinking this is a this is the crappiest box call what what is this you know like what is this guy doing you know just somebody needs to teach this guy how to call and I I kept listening and get it was getting closer and closer and I thought this guy's gonna walk right through my decoy setup and in not five minutes maybe three minutes later a hen walked out and she was making that noise she stood right in front of me and yelped and I thought well that was now who's the dummy you know um so it was it was a hen all along but she just had a weird voice and and but that rhythm if you can get that rhythm down a realistic rhythm that's more important than the actual vocalization the actual making textbook perfect calls.

SPEAKER_02 57:25

Yeah it's funny you saying that about the hen you think it is somebody that's stuck in I've heard stories like that before people like man that guy's that he's awful and it's it's a hen or it's a tom or it's a Jake you know and it's it it's funny that I guess that re you know reiterates your point on having that variety sometimes you need a plate sometimes you need a box sometimes a diaphragm because of how all these different hens and what gets a Tom triggered and what doesn't exactly yeah I mean I nothing sounds worse in the in the in the turkey woods than a Jake Yelp.

Scouting Sign Plus Call Variety

SPEAKER_00 57:58

I mean it I I've I've got some um some diaphragms that I'll use uh to to if to challenge a Tom and and that's what I use them for. I don't I don't like to gobble I'm not a gobble guy um but I'll use a Jake Yelp. It's a real slow deep and um kind of raspy yelp. Somebody who's not used to listening to turkeys might think when they heard it, oh that's a that's a that's a yelp of a Tom that's got to be a Tom listen how raspy and deep it is but actually a Tom's gobble and and yelps are um are smoother and more more refined uh where the jakes they're not sure how to you know they're not quite sure how to how to do it yet and same with same with their gobbles and uh I'll I'll do these raspy yelps and it it sometimes it'll break a uh Tom free because he thinks that he all of a sudden he comes around that corner he hears that yelp and he thinks it's a hand or he thinks it's a Jake and he comes around the corner and sees that quarter strut Jake with that hand and he loses his mind.

SPEAKER_02 59:05

Yeah yeah that's yeah that's true. Um well Anthony I uh I appreciate you coming on the podcast here and I I know we could go on for days, months, years about all the different aspects of turkey hunting but for those of us going out this spring that are still newer to it or even advanced what we talked about today is definitely some good uh tools in our belt for tackling the start of this season.

SPEAKER_00 59:34

Well that's great thanks very much for uh for the invite Ken and I I appreciate it uh let me know anytime you want me to come on I'd be happy to come on and uh I I like to uh I'd like to find out how you're making out with the turkeys I'm actually going to be down in New Brunswick this year doing a hunt and um with uh Haley Brooke and uh we're gonna be um uh chasing some birds down there me and Mike Holland and uh and the guys uh taking a young hunter or new new hunter out so I'm looking forward to that should be great I I love the province of New Brunswick and and uh the people have always been very good for it to us and and I'm I'm looking forward to getting back there.

Where To Watch And Farewell

SPEAKER_02 1:00:13

Oh that'll be great yeah um so if someone's looking to uh watch your show where's the line of sight TV and stuff where's the best place for them to uh to find it well all the new episodes now are airing on Sportsman's Channel Canada uh there are there's I think they're still if I'm not mistaken I think they're still rerunning some of the older stuff on wild TV they can also find us um all the past episodes and uh and some of the shorts and some instructional stuff is on YouTube and Rumble. Perfect. Anthony again thanks and I wish you the best of luck in Argentina this year and uh maybe this spring I might be able to meet up with you and and see ya yeah absolutely buddy I'd I'd I'd like to just to run into you again.

SPEAKER_00 1:01:01

We'll uh we'll have to get together and do a hunt. Yeah yeah absolutely all right buddy thanks a lot eh yeah thanks Anthony thanks folks bye bye