EP 22: Daniel Pugeda — Privilege, Perspective, and Being Fans of Philippine Climbing

In this episode of Rock and Rice, we sit down with Daniel Pugeda — a Filipino-American climber whose first outdoor sport climb in the Philippines… was a 5.13a/7c+.

But this conversation goes way beyond that wild first send.

After multiple trips back to the Philippines, Daniel reflects on how his perspective has evolved — from being a stoked first-time visitor to someone thinking more critically about access, privilege, and what it really means to engage with the climbing community back home.

We talk about:

• The realities Filipino climbers face when it comes to travel, finances, and access
• The difference between visiting the Philippines and living there
• How Fil-Am climbers can show up with more awareness and intention
• The rapid growth of the climbing scene — gyms, comps, and community

This episode is about seeing the full picture — not just the climbing, but everything behind it.

Maraming salamat to Charm Bartolay for her interview with us on Episode 2. That episode was the impetus for this one. You can listen to our episode with Charm (and Wilson!) here.

Also, a special mention to Nilo Batle! Listen to learn more. 

Follow Daniel:
https://www.instagram.com/daniel4nthony/

Join the community:

• Discord
• Patreon

Credits

Editor, Onassis Rabanes 

Social Lead, Christine Joy

Host, Tim Casasola

Transcript

0:11

Tim Hello and Kamusta! Welcome to The Rock and Rice Podcast. I am your host, Tim Casasola and for this April episode, we have our friend Daniel Pugeda on the episode. Pow pow pow pow. So, some context. Daniel is a friend of mine. We had met in the Philippines when we were both climbing in the Philippines for the first time. Tim So both Daniel and I are Filipino American and, meaning we were born in the States, and we were visiting the Philippines both on vacation. I was going to in January 2024, I was going to a crag called Montalban. This was towards the tail end of my climbing trip in the Philippines. And I was visiting Montalban, my friends. Tim Both Jops and Jo R Ala. Shoutouts to both Jops and Jo R Ala. Jo's actually been on the podcast. They were showing me Montalban. They knew I were pretty psyched. I was pretty psyched to check out a crag that was accessible from Manila. So Montalban is about, like an hour 45 from Manila, depending on traffic, depending on traffic. Tim And, we went to a carinderia, said hi to the Lola of the carinderia. And, then came a group of a lot of climbers from Central. So Centro was a gym in Manila. And in this group, one of the people in the group was Daniel. We also saw Charm. Charm as a part of that group. Tim So Charm has been on the, second episode of our podcast. So I got to meet Charm in person that day. And Daniel, him and I both, our Tagalog was not that good. You know, that's how he recognized each other. And we were both pretty psyched. We were both excited to experience climbing in the Philippines. Tim Because it was our first time climbing in the Philippines. Anyway. So, what's funny about this trip is that Daniel had sent a he had sent a sport climb that was 5.13a and literally this was his first time sport climbing. Can you believe sending a 5.13a and like it being his first time sport climbing job. Tim Joe and I were trying Django which is a 5.13a/7c+ based in Montalban It's a really bouldering start. And the crux of that route is actually on the bottom. Like it's hard to do the crux move if you have like a shorter wingspan, which, Joe I would say drops. Joe and I all have like mid-sized wingspans. Tim But Daniel's a little bit taller, which means he has a, long wingspan and he's also a really strong boulder. So he was able to hit the crux move super easily. And, he just, like, flew through the crux. And then was we were like, "Alright, Daniel, keep going you got this!" You know, like, it's literally his first time sport climbing. Tim And he did it easily. He sent the 5.13a, which was pretty incredible considering, you know, jumps Joe and I were working super hard on the bottom. So pretty psyched for Daniel. And it's funny, like, Daniel was being taught how to clip by, I think, JX, if I remember correctly, it was JX who was teaching him how to clip on the ground. Tim Literally, this dude was learning how to clip the day he sent a 5.13a/7c+. Incredible. Anyway, I have to give Daniel credit for the idea of this episode. We actually recorded something back in 2024 after this trip, and it was a very starry eyed like so psyched about climbing in the Philippines type of episode. And before I was actually going to publish this around November of last year, Daniel actually reached out and he pitched a new idea for what we could talk about. Tim And here's what he said. So, hey, Tim. And this was a text he sent to me. I just listened to your most recent episode. So this was the episode. Rain rambles and Red points. December. I just listened to your recent episode, and it sparked some reflection in our conversation a while back. There was a clip from Charm's episode where she talked about not seeing many Filipino climbers abroad, and unpacked the logistical and financial barriers that limit access to climbing for many Filipinos. Tim Hearing that made me realize how much more context there is around Philippine climbing than I was able to articulate when we recorded. Looking back, I think my episode leaned a bit more on personal experience, and while genuine, I didn't really fully engage with some of the broader realities, challenges, and growing pains within the Philippine climbing scene, especially the structural, sorry, the structural barriers that shapes who gets to participate and how the community develops. Tim Not a core episode. Sorry, not a core focus of Rock and Rice, but something I think many climbers, especially listeners from the Philippines, can relate to. Since then, I've been back to the Philippines multiple times and have had multiple conversations, experiences, and time to reflect. I now feel I have much more grounded perspective and appreciation that could lead to a richer, nuanced conversation. Tim So, long story short, Daniel wanted to rerecord this an episode with Rock and Rice kind of reflecting on his own experiences, visiting the Philippines more and more and climbing there. And, it was Charm's snippet that, I had shared in episode 20, "Rain Rambles and Redpoints" that, I talk a bit about it. That got him to also reflect, and I'm actually just going to replay the snippet that Charm had shared with us back in episode two. Charm I, I'm traveling around, and it's very rare that I get to see Filipino Rock Climber traveling abroad. And if I do my joke kami about this, like if you do, probably that person is not like 100% Filipino in the sense that he was not born and raised a Philippines. He was probably a kid who grew up in California or in. Tim Yeah, yeah, yeah, exactly. Charm Or a kid who, like, I know some people from Dubai, so it's, like kids who are who were raised in Dubai, so they have a lot of cash to travel around. So it's, it's that dilemma so, but but it also boils down to the financial capacity kasi, as Wilson said, "sobrang every, every force against you to become a better climber" Charm It's like, mahirap ang buhay. It's, you try to earn as much money as you can, and then when you go abroad, the amount of money that you are earning is in pesos. And then if you convert that into the currency of the other country, usually it makes you poorer, it makes you realize, oh, I don't have a lot of money for this. Charm When I first went to Tonsai in it, I was bike touring by myself. So I was like, I don't know. It was the second time that I went to Tonsai and I was bike touring. And then I was spending in a very tiny amount because it was just by myself. And then when I went to the climbing area and then people would say, oh, there's this very cheap place to eat that, let's go there. Charm And then when I go there, like, really, this is cheap. I would only say that they were like, okay, so I guess we have different, categories of cheap. Now, every time somebody tells me that this is cheap, I say, define to me what is cheap for you. How much is cheap? So yeah, there's the money issue. That's the one of the hardest things for Filipino climbers. Tim So yeah, that's the snippet that Daniel was inspired by and also the snippet that we reshared in episode 20. You know, I think a large part of Rock and Rice is just to spread awareness. And while a lot of listeners like you in the Philippines are probably not surprised by, what Charm is sharing, and I'm curious to hear what you think. Tim There are a lot of Filipino Americans and a lot of Filipinos who live abroad who aren't aware of the like, basically aren't aware of like how hard it is, how much harder it is for Filipinos back home to make climbing a priority. As Charm said, all the forces are against you as a Filipino climber, especially if you're not coming from, let's just say it like from a place of wealth, it's just a lot harder to make climbing a priority in your life. Tim It is a thing that requires a certain level of privilege or a certain level of wealth, and freedom to be able to do so. And so, hopefully, you know, obviously that's changing in a sense today there's a lot more gyms in the Philippines. But yeah, I think a large part of this show is just to spread awareness and to, to have kind of like real conversation about, you know, the, the barriers that exist to making climbing more accessible. Tim All right. Without further ado, this is our episode with Daniel. Tim Daniel I'm excited to chat, bro. It's been two years since we had an actual episode, so we talked back in 2024 when you and I had met, or like a little bit after when we had met in Manila and Montalban, basically. Yeah. So you and I were the only, like, Fil-Ams, in the carinderia. And, we clearly were like, you're not from here. Daniel Yeah, yeah. Tim And that was a cool time because you, that I remember, like you literally learning how to clip a quick draw on the ground. I forget who was actually teaching you, but someone was teaching you how to clip on the ground. And then that day you had said a 5.13b, which, or 5.13a, I think I'm maybe you can correct me on the grading. Tim It was Django. I think it's a 7C plus. Me and Jops were working at that day and you clearly had the length to like, make the first crux super easy. So that was a crazy day. Do you have any memories of that moment? Daniel Honestly, the I also just like, remember that being such a fun day, but not for that, like specific time. It was more so, like in totality. I think that was the only climb I sent that day. Like I tried all of the other, like, quote on quote warm up climbs, like the. Tim Cafe de Tim Wawa. Daniel Yeah, yeah, all the five sixes or whatever. And I fell on all of them. I just saw, like, like you and Jops, just like trying that climb. And I was like, wow, that looks like really cool. Like, I don't know what that is. Like. Everyone says it's kind of hard, but it's kind of inspiring to watch them try it. Daniel So I kind of want to give it a shot. And then one thing led to another. It was like, wow, I did not expect to get on top of this today. It was like my second time sport climbing. I was like my probably fourth time sport climbing outside, just like just like, wow, that's that was nuts. Like, this should not happen. Daniel Especially like this. It doesn't make sense. Like you said, I was like, practicing how to, like, clip Like, what is it? Clip. Yeah. Clip on a quickdraw. I think that was, JX that was like demonstrating JX and Aiki. Yeah. They were like the big two that were just like with me the entire time I was climbing, in the Philippines the first time around. Daniel And yeah, it was just really funny. Good energy, good people. Really great day. And, Yeah. Tim JX and who again? Daniel Aiki Tim JX and Aiki shout outs to JX and Aiki from Centro, right? Daniel Yes. Yes from Centro. Yeah. Tim Cool shout outs. Daniel Oh not TS, Powerup Centro woops. Tim Shout outs to Centro. Yeah. That was such a fun day. Because, Jops and I and Jo R Ala who's also been on the podcast, too. Daniel Yeah. That's right. Tim And Jo's been, killing it on the national, on the Pilipinas National team, which has been cool to see. We, the three of us are all psyched to, like, work Django. Jops have done a try. He had worked at prior, so same with Jo. And it's got a bottom for the listeners. It's got a bottom V7 crux you tell me. Tim Especially for shorter climbers or climbers with a short length. Like it's really hard to nail that. You have to like bump your left hand while in a drop knee position. Daniel Yeah, yeah. Tim But for you. Tim You reached it and all three of us are like, all right, our jaws are dropping. You're like, oh my God, he could send it! We were like in astonishment, you know, and you were literally just learning how to clip on the ground like three minutes before. Tim Your go. Daniel yeah. It was. Yeah, definitely crazy crazy there, but super fun. Tim Yeah. How many trips have you taken to the Philippines since then? Daniel I think I've been there three times since then, but I've only climbed twice. So the first time, I, I guess the second time that I went back, and climbed a little, I was actually there for like, unrelated reasons. Like, there was like a death in my family, unfortunately. So I was over there. But the crazy thing about that was it happened to, like, coincide with when the nationals were happening, in 2024. Daniel Yes. It was August 2024. So I think I was in the Philippines for like three ish weeks or something. And the last week and a half way, I was not climbing, I was in I was in, Cavite for the duration, like most of that trip. But the last week and a half, after everything had been sort of settled and like the funeral and everything else that happened, I was like, oh, this this is happening in Iloilo, like, the nationals are happening. Daniel I wonder if I can, go over there and, you know, checked in with the family there, like, you know, like, go for it. So I took a flight out there. Really crazy thing. I ran into one of my friends, my old boss, actually, he was. He was one of the setters. I think Jo invited him. Daniel His name's, Nilo. Nilo Batle. Tim Oh, Nilo. Daniel Yeah. Yeah. Cool. Yeah. Tim Shout outs to the Bay area. Daniel Yeah, yeah, he was over there with his partner, Maggie, and they were, like, guest setting, the nationals. And that was, first of all, like, crazy. I had not seen that guy in many months. And the next time I see him, we're on the other side of the world. It was ridiculous. But the second trip, most of that climbing was just fore running for the national comp, which was like a really cool experience, for like kind of experience and go through. Daniel And then I, of course, like, met a good amount of more, like Filipino climbers from Iloilo specifically. And then, I think Cebu was also well represented like that. There was Doc, Doc was there. Laila was also there. I'm trying to forget. Oh, yeah Kuya Gerwin was there. So, yeah, such a long time ago. But the thing that I, Daniel That was really interesting about that was just like seeing, like the level that they were setting for at the time. And how, how should I put this? I remember, like, struggle. Oh, wait. Sorry. Let me try to compartmentalize this. I just remember, like, a lot of that experience, being very cool because it was a new space. Daniel I think around that time that I got to the Philippines, they were announcing, the first time I was there rather there were, many gyms that had announced they were opening, and Vertex I that's the name Vertex that's, they were the first one that had opened up. And it was cool seeing that, like, space, how modern it was and how much it meant to that community and that whole celebration afterwards. Daniel Unfortunately, by the time the nationals had taken place, I wasn't physically present. I was there for like, fore running. And then I pretty much left. But like seeing that online, seeing like the entire like Philippine community, like coming together, and trying to, like, build the I think that was the first. No, that wasn't the first nationals since that Covid. Daniel They had it the year prior, 2023. But one of the like the bigger events seeing like an event of that scale and being being able to peek behind like the magic of it, that was like a really cool experience for me to like, just like witness. And I wish, I totally wish I was there, like during the dates of the actual competition, because whenever I see, like any type of climbing competition happening in the Philippines, like the energy is like so contagious that I can only like experience it through my phone, on Instagram or whatever, like through my friends that are still there and climbing there. Daniel But that was like a really awesome, like core memory of that second trip and kind of like improved, my whole vibe for that trip, considering the circumstance set up before it. Tim Yeah. You said this is April 2024. Daniel This was August. Tim August 2024 Daniel Yeah. Tim Same year that you had went to the Philippines. During the trip we met, which is around January 2024. So you went twice basically, Daniel RIght Daniel Yeah. The first stint that I had was from December '23 to April or late. Yeah, late April 2024. Then I left and then I come back August 2024. Like from July to like August that same year. Wow. Yeah. Tim Very soon. Daniel And yeah, it was really funny when I was there, when I came back, everyone was like, well, I thought you weren't coming back for like a year or two. At least now I was like, yeah, I don't know why. Like, let me try to check it out. It's crazy. I didn't expect to be back here so soon either, but, it was awesome. Daniel Like seeing them, seeing, like, my friends over there and, like, getting to experience the magic of what goes into, like, building a competition of that scale, especially since, like, nationals for them is just that thing that just you bring climbers, climbers from all over the Philippines come in and contribute and they participate and they engage. And it's just like a big celebration of climbing. Daniel And, yeah, it was really cool to see that at vertex for sure. Tim Yeah. Were there any people from Centro that went. Daniel Kuya Macki was actually there. Tim Nice. Daniel But I don't think he was setting. I think he was bolting and like in Igbaras. Tim Yeah. Daniel Beforehand. Cool. Yeah. Other people from Centro, I think they probably flew in like after as like spectators. Like if you like the veteran older climbers were there, but, they were not part of like the, the route setting process, I don't think. Tim But got it. Daniel Yeah. And then. Tim Got it. Daniel Yeah. Tim And then you said you took another trip since then. Is that right or has that was it the last time you're in the Philippines? Daniel I took another trip. Climbing related over there in August of 2025. Again. Tim Oh, yeah. Daniel I, I was there for a month in total, and the main reason for that was it was sort of just like a last hurrah thing. Like currently, I'm like, studying like a masters in Boston. And it's like a year and a half program, so to, like, sort of like, treat myself before starting school again. Yeah. I was like, let me, let me go to the Philippines. Daniel And just like, have fun over there, climb, see my friends and do a whole nine yards. Yeah. And it was it was a really cool experience. It was great seeing everyone that I'd been there for so long, like my first time around, that I couldn't, like, see all the people that I'd met. But like most of them, but a lot of the main difference between my first trip and like that third trip, was just like, I guess my mentality are not my mentality. Daniel It's it's more so like the first time you do something you don't really have, like an expectation of anything that goes on. It's like you're just kind of setting the bar and, that third time that I went, it wasn't so much that, like, I there was like a certain expectation that my excitement level had to like, meet or something. Daniel But it was just like, okay, I'm a bit more familiar with this now. But, you know, experiences are like variable and they like change. And that time around, it was a lot more like grounded in terms of, like seeing all the other gyms that had opened up. Then I think, if you climbed there, they had opened like Greenhills BHIVE. Daniel Yeah. Around that time. And that was. Yeah, that was like another like crazy opportunity to see, like how much climbing had evolved even more. Because now, like, there's a Gumby gym and like a very, like, beginner that was like a very much a beginner oriented climber, for sure in the Philippines. And it's so fun to see, how how many more people are getting into climbing as a result of it, like especially that location. Daniel It was always like full capacity, like all hours of the day pretty much after 12. And it was really cool seeing how quickly, like some people had, not only like the climbers that I had met the first time, their how quickly they'd improve from the last time I'd seen them. But the new climbers that were getting into the sport as well, like I would talk to some of these people who were trying like, I think it was like the purple tag, sort of the second hardest, like grades at that gym. Daniel I was like, how long have you been climbing? It was like, oh yeah, like three months. And I was like, whoa, that's that's so insane. Tim And then you hit them with, yo, I, I've been sport climbing for four months, and I did my first 5.13a. Nah, I'm just kidding. Charm Tim They wouldn't even know. Daniel Like, yeah. Tim What? What's that? Oh that's here. No, I'm just kidding. Daniel But, I think, like, something like I had the opportunity to, like, set a little bit at that gym and, the other BHive branch and something that I like, observe between or like specifically in the climbing gyms in the Philippines. They do a really good job of like building up movement with, like a lot of like especially given like the resources that they have in terms of like whole types that like a lot of the times you go to BHive on the main like comp wall, I think it's gotten much better now. Daniel Because climbing is growing and they have like so many holds now, but like previously, a lot of those like flat holds and like other like really shiny dual tex ones would stay up on like those main area sets at the comp wall. And it was sort of impressive how they could like, use those same holds but create like different types of movement and teach that to their climbers that they had, and now they just have like more resources. Daniel But so they can try different types of like movement. But, they do a really good job of like building up from, like level one to like level ten, essentially in terms of here's how you do this lache this lache is like the second easiest tape. But then maybe it'll show up on like a boulder of the week or something, and it'll be like a V4, and then they'll like tune it out to like V8 or like V6 or something like that. Daniel So you have these climbers that, you know, have no fear. They've been climbing for three months and they're doing like these V8 lache dynos that I know for like five years now. And I still like struggle every time I see them. So it's just like really cool to like, yeah. Yeah, exactly. It's it's really cool to like, come in and see them, just like kicking ass like that. Daniel Like it's like, oh, man, I wish I was getting like three months at that. Tim Time. Daniel But. Tim Yeah. Yeah. And you're speaking, you're saying, it's also it also speaks to how, resourceful, set the setters are with like. Daniel Oh, absolutely. Tim The resources that, you know, kinds of holds they have in being able to create really high quality V4s to V8s And that's all that's that's really, really cool for sure. Awesome. Well, I'll like I guess you had hit me up basically as we were as I was discussing with you, like, oh yeah, I'm thinking of publishing your, 2025 episode and you're like, actually, I listened to your "Rain, Rambles and Red points" episode. Tim It was basically an end of the year recap, and it's a snippet of Charm talking about how if I were to summarize what Charm was saying and Charm I apologize if, you know, if I get this wrong. Basically what I took away from Charm's snippet there was included in that episode was Filipinos, specifically from the Philippines who go climbing, who want to go climbing, experience more access barriers, obstacles when it comes to traveling around and wanting to climb outside of the Philippines. Tim One of those barriers has to do with like literally the translation of pesos to euros or pesos to USD versus people like you and me who are U.S. citizens. When we go to the Philippines, the US dollar goes a long way. And and that just makes it a lot easier for us to travel around. That's just one of the many, obviously, like being a Philippine citizen, you're limited in terms of like where you can travel to as well versus like the US passport. Tim It's a lot stronger. So on and so forth. And these are things that I'm sure you've thought a lot about. I'm curious if we can start there, like when you listen to that snippet, from that episode, what made you go, oh, yeah, like, I need to sit with this and talk to Tim about it. Daniel Yeah. So I think, like after hearing that insight from charm, it kind of like, reframed my whole experience of my first time, of course, in that like snippet specifically, I think charm was saying it's about more so, like climb Philippine climbers, like going abroad and having those, like, difficulty, of access and everything. But it still even applies for, like, climbers traveling within like the Philippines itself, for sure. Daniel And it like made me even more grateful to like, reflect on the things that I was able to experience the first time. When I went there, I went to like, you know, Iloilo, I went to like CDO. I went to Cebu, I went to like, I'm like, no, I'm like all these places, like with. But it wasn't just me. Daniel If it was just me, I would struggle. Like getting an hour outside of Manila. But I went with, like the central climbers, and they were kind of just like, very gracious in terms of, like, inviting me to explore not only, like climbing, but like, like in the Philippines outside of Manila. Otherwise, like, I very much would have been, like, landlocked. Daniel So like, it really made me more grateful for them and sharing like their kindness and extending like their kindness to like touring this kid that they've like, met twice. And just like showing them, oh, this is what we have going on. These are all the climbing scenes out here. And at the same time, like, it really improved for me. Daniel My, my appreciation for the Philippines because previous to that, whenever I go back home to the Philippines, I was I would really just stay, like, in my dad's province or like in Manila. Wouldn't really care to, like, explore it so much. But now every time I do go, I'm like looking for an opportunity, like go outside and explore and like, meet all these kinds of people, have all these types of experiences, yeah. Daniel So I'm not sure if that answered your question. Tim No, I yeah, I'm hearing you say that listening to that helps you see your first trip with, like, a different pair of eyes. Daniel Yeah. For sure. Tim You were like, oh, yeah, I'm. I'm able to get around the Philippines because of my friends who, have connections, obviously know the languages. Like not just language, but languages. And know the beta to how to how to get to like, places like Igbaras. You went to Danao too, Ambongdolan, CDO. Daniel Yeah. Yeah. And I feel like the first time I sort of like, came on here like a big beat, like, I, I definitely talked a lot about, like, my enjoyment of, like, climbing around the Philippines. But it felt like, like very, like starry eyed, like kid that just, like, wanted to share, like, everything. That's how I, I never heard the recording, but that's how I at least, like, thought of it. Daniel Like, I don't know if you've ever seen that. Oh, please. That is the. But like, I was like kind of that meme where, it's like the opposite of, like whenever a guy or, remembers a random compliment from, like the sixth grade that they had at night and, like, just smiling. But like, for me, it was like, oh, I'm just cringing thinking about how I sounded like that thought compared to like, this, like very, like, well, articulated thought from Charm and like, wow, that's a really good point. Daniel And then that's my way of saying like, oh yeah. Do you like, DJango was like a great climb. Like, Tim, you were the beta man. Like, I was like, oh, I gotta, I gotta try to, like, fix that if I can. So a little bit of an extension on Charm's point to resources more immediately. You know, you think of things like expenses, you think of planning to get there. Daniel You think of time and availability off work to travel, whether that's in the Philippines or not. You know, it's sort of, a very adult thing that I never had to worry about personally. But when I think about the people I was traveling with being, JX, Aiki, Centro climbers and everyone else, and I think about their willingness to show a stranger like myself around at the cost of those resources rather than, you know, just doing what they would have wanted to do had I not been there. Daniel I'm extremely grateful, you know, thinking back on these rock trips and everything else, they would ask me, what I wanted to do and really prioritize the stuff that I said I think I could do. And that made for a lot of core memories, not only just because of the sends but just because of the relationships and conversations had, built up over that time. Daniel It's something I'm extremely grateful for. So framing back into Charm's narrative of resources being costly and limited, you know, shout out to JX, Aiki Centro, CDO, everyone, just for the amount of time, energy and care that they invested in showing me a good time. Tim No. You're good. I mean, honestly, I think it it shows that you I'm excited to talk to you about this because the more and more I go and the more and more, my partner goes, who's also Filipino American, the more we one realize, the, the more we get to know people there. The more we realize that, like, specific obstacles and barriers they experience versus like the ones we don't, even though we share the same ethnicity. Tim So it is something, I'm really I'm really glad you're approaching this with, like, a mindset of curiosity because, yeah, we should be talking about this. And, and like, you know, acknowledging it. So I guess if 2024, Daniel was, like, telling the story with stars in his eyes, what would present day wise aspiring masters, Daniel want to pause at, you know, two years later? Daniel Masters Daniel I like the sound of that. Masters in progress. Tim Yeah. He's looking for a job. You guys, by the way. Daniel Oh, yes. Tim Hook ups and supply chain. We got a incoming analytics head coming into the workforce. But. Sorry. Go ahead. Daniel No, for sure. I think, this is what I would say to, I guess more specifically to Philippine American climbers or not. Just like any type of climber, like visiting the Philippines. Just try to, like, experience that space as much as you can, but acknowledge the things that you can do to try to improve and make that better. Daniel It doesn't always have to be. Maybe it's not always like something like tangible in terms of like contributing, like direct donations, if you can. That's awesome too, because, like, there's a lot of, like, work that can be improved over there. But more so maybe just like be more visible having conversations about it, engaging in the community when you can. Daniel I think that's something that my perspective, that's, that's sort of how my perspective has like shifted, going from someone who was like having fun about it. But whenever I like, whenever I run into, like, Filipino climbers at the gym in the northeast, which is crazy because we have Filipino climbers in the northeast. That's always, something I try to, like, communicate with. Daniel That was like, oh, have you ever heard of, like, climbing in the Philippines? They're like, you should definitely, like, check it out if you can, you know, see how they do. It's really not only something cool to experience, but something to think about. In terms of, like, maybe give back, if you enjoy that experience so much. Tim Yeah. Daniel But I think that's kind of. Yeah. So, I see way better. Like. Anyways, I've been doing way too many interviews too, like. Yeah, yeah, yeah. So I answer it better, but you're like, yeah. Tim You're you're saying like, just experience it and find ways you want to support is what you're saying and get experience and get to know the community, find ways to support it. Does that summarize it, or do you feel like there's there's stuff that would add to that? Daniel No, no, that's a that's a good way to summarize that for sure. Tim Cool. I'm curious. Like, so you know, you and I both Filipino-American, we both climbed in the Philippines multiple times now. And so for you, it's been three times. For me, it's been also three trips, I believe. Hey, when were you when did you feel like. Yeah, I belong here. And when did you feel like, I'm still very much a visitor. Daniel I think probably towards the end of my first trip, I was someone that was just like. Oh, yes. You know, like climbing in the Philippines. This is amazing. I belong here like like. See you later. U.S. I'm going to stay here for as long as I can. Like, this is awesome. Yeah, but since since coming back. Yeah. Daniel Working. But since coming back. It really like the the community, like, just changed so much. Like, there's more climbers, there's more people, more gyms. So the second time I went back, and third time I was like, wow. I used to go from like, knowing 80% of the people at beehive to, like, knowing like 5%, like, there's just so many new faces. Daniel So I was kind of like, sort of a thing, like, oh, you know, like the things that you might have experienced then might not apply now, in terms of, like familiarity with the people, but that's a good thing for the sport. So then I would say, like, it's not so much that I don't feel like a visitor, but I've like, sort of graduated from being like a visitor of Philippine climbing. Daniel So like more of a fan really. Like when whenever I see, like people posting and my friends posting back home with like, competitions or like, like the Sea games just went on, like last year and then the Philippines like, medaled. Like I think it was Praj she medal shout out to Praj. Yeah. Tim Yeah, shout outs to Praj! Daniel That's like moments like that where you sort of see online it's like, oh dude, it's so awesome to see like the Philippines. Like winning. Especially in climbing. So I think that's sort of how my mindset is kind of changed. I used to be like, yeah, you know, this is this is where this is where it's at climbing like my endgame for climbing. Daniel It's going to be in the Philippines. But now it's like a bit like, you know, you see it a bit more fuller after many, many times. Go for a bit more times going and you're just like, oh, you know, like, I might not be like a direct part of this community. But I can still appreciate it for what it is because there are people who, like, look like me and. Charm Yeah, yeah, yeah. Tim Yeah, I feel very similar. Like, you know, part of what this podcast aims to do is just to, talk to people who I think are just doing cool things in the Philippines, you know, who are climbers. And I've tried to take a stance of, like you said, feeling like basically being a fan, basically just like, dude, whatever. Tim Like that's sick that we, medaled in in the Sea games. Whoa. It's like sick that, there are more gyms in Iloilo. You know, it's cool that people are going outside. And they all want people like me and you to go there and be a part of it. And just like, like, hang out, you know? So that's that's when I also feel like I belong is when people, you know, are super inviting and just, like, want to go climbing. Tim But also, you know, there's never really a, I should say, like, there's never really a moment where I also feel like a visitor. But there are moments where I feel, you know, like, this is their thing. Like that's this is like, this is a thing that they're driving up grassroots creating for themselves and like, self actualizing. And I want to like, I'm just a fan. Tim Like I think this is, you know, you know. Yeah. I think like in one of Charm's episodes or basically in the episode with Charm. She made this point about like basically Filipino Americans. And it is funny, when we had met that day, Charm was actually at Montalban. And like first off the deck conversation shout outs to Charm being like incredibly direct is like, yeah. Tim So Tim, like I talk with my friends about like how Filipino Americans are actually Filipino, like, what do you think of that? And I'm like, yeah, well, tell me more. I want to I want to hear what I want to hear. What led you to that conclusion? Oh, it's like, yeah. You guys don't really experience what we do, especially when we travel. Tim And obviously when it comes to finance it, like when it comes to actually paying for things outside of the Philippines, it's like the playing field is not it's not equal. You know what I mean? And so I'm off the deck. We're just having this conversation about, like, equity and difference in identity and stuff, and, it was it was cool because I feel like we got to talk more about it. Tim She was also curious about, like, how we experience, you know, oppression in the States, like, she was curious about, like, oh, do you ever experience microaggressions or oppression? Like, what is it like to be Filipino in the United States? So we got to talk about that as well. I talked to her about like how, you know, sometimes when I'm with my family getting like, like dining in, sometimes we're like the last to get served for, for example, if like staff's all white, you know, those are very like, small things, but, those that up, it was a good conversation. Tim But I want to go back to that point Charm made about Filipino Americans being different from being Filipino in the lived experience sense. How does that land with you? Like, what do you think when when you hear that point? Daniel Oh, absolutely. 100% agree. Like this. Again, going back to like my first time in the Philippines, like having I was essentially on vacation over there and, having the ability, in terms of like time and resources to like, go wherever, whenever, like with whoever, is a luxury, like a huge luxury by itself, but especially like, you know, being over there, coordinating like, compared to having to coordinate time, resources and everything else, like, I was, I mean, I don't even think I had gear. Daniel Yeah, I had a harness. Yeah. I have like, a harness on and like. Tim It was given. Charm Yeah. The harness was given. Yeah. Like like all of those things, and like using the climbers that I was using, like their, their gear essentially, and just going around with them, that's definitely not something that, like the average Philippine climber, can or maybe they can't experience it, but they have to build like, a, like, whole, like lifestyle around that. Daniel Yeah. And like for me to just kind of like go into that, like that was a very lucky. I was very lucky, being able to meet the people that I did meet and it was just one of those things where the stars align, where you kind of just understand this is not a normal experience that most climbers do. Daniel Most climbers over there don't even try climbing outside. And so well after, like, or I'm kind of using a couple of my friends that I know, but they've been climbing for like maybe three years and they've still got outside, like maybe like once or twice, not too much, but the opportunities to do so over there, they're getting a bit better about it now. Daniel In terms of like the gyms with organizing rock trips and things of that sort, but it's like still a really hard thing for like the average climber over there to try and do, because the sign ups for that, there's so much demand like, Tim Those trips are like so crowded too, like so basically there's a lot of interest in doing so. And, you know, you have like 1 or 2 people leading the trip. You know, 1 or 2 people placing and then, yeah. Yeah, that is something I've noticed is because of the growing climbing community in the Philippines, which is great. Tim I'm curious, like how that bridge to the outdoors can be made in such a way that's like teaching people, but also keeping them safe, but also, allowing them to have fun and also not putting the burden on, like, Jops and whoever else who's like or experienced, you know what I mean? Yeah. But more and more people can be like teachers, I guess. Tim So, definitely, definitely a good point you're making. It's something I'm thinking a lot about, too. We talk a lot about, like how how much, privilege American citizens have when they're traveling in the Philippines. As Fil-Ams who can travel abroad. How do we, I don't want to say. How do we check ourselves before we accidentally romanticize everything, but maybe a better way to ask this is, you know, if you were to encourage other Filipino Americans to go to the Philippines, what, advice would you give them if they were to ask you for advice? Daniel Okay. So if like other of sorry, this is more general, more catered towards like climbers or just. Tim Yeah, Filipino American climbers. So like you have a homie at the gym, you're saying go to the Philippines. They're like, yeah, I'm down. What advice do you have for me? What would you say? Daniel Try to just be extremely present with the people over there, try to get, if you can get to know. Oh, actually, this that's very lofty, ambitious. But try to engage with the community, try to get to know the people behind the scenes. Ask if you can do if you can, like, tag along and see certain things, that might interest you, whether that be like route setting, going outside, competitions, like volunteering, things like that. Daniel Just so you can get like a holistic idea of the things that they have to do, to get something at scale that maybe in the US is it's not something you have to think about as much. I think like trying to peek behind the curtain, try to try to eat the cake. How is it? How does that one thing go? Daniel Eat your cake and have it as well. Tim Have your cake and eat it too. Daniel Have your cake and eat it too. I don't know, I'm like word bombing today, but yeah, essentially that like, just be conscious of, I guess the hot dog being conscious of the hot dog and how it's made. Yeah. Tim Basically you're saying like try to learn what goes behind the experience that you're having because, you know, on the outside it's like awesome. And it takes there's a lot that you can't see if you're just like looking if you're willing to see it a lot that goes behind route setting, a lot that goes behind, you know, development, a lot that even goes behind. Tim Getting to the crag and coordinating is that is that pretty much what you're saying? Daniel Yeah. Tim Yeah, yeah, that makes sense. Tim So I pronounced Ambongdolan super wrong here. I keep saying Ang Bong Dolan, but it's really, Am Bong Dolan. The please excuse my incorrect way of pronouncing, Ambongdolan. All right, let's carry on Tim One of my homies, too. It's cool since, like, starting this podcast, my my good friend Onassis has gone to, Ambongdolan because he was pretty inspired not only from here, but also just seeing on Instagram and connecting with Kuya Gerwin, about bouldering in the Philippines and in his trip, he like, planned to go basically make like a couple days to go to Ambongdolan with his wife. Tim Shout outs to Rida and, you know, they had a great time. He made a video. Obviously it was very hot, but it was like a pretty basically Onassis, like had a great experience, and was like down to, you know, it's like, damn, I wish I had more time and I wish I wasn't so jet lagged and only eating pandesals. Tim But, you know, I wish, I wish, like, dedicating more time to go climbing. Another friend. Here, here in L.A.. His name's Nate. He's a really strong boulderer He's got a kalbo. He has a shaved head, but he's like, He had also been inspired to go to Ambo, from, learning about it through Instagram, through this podcast. Tim And, he got connected with, Benguet climbing community and also got to Boulder out with them and just had an amazing time. And, he sent me a sweet message to, because I helped him find the right people to get introduced to. And, yeah, I just think that, to your point, the more and more we can encourage, like people here to climbers specifically here to go to the Philippines and just get to know the community them the more, connected and like, the more we can like, I guess, have a bridge between, the Filipino climbers here and Filipino climbers back home. Tim I think the more that can take place, the better for for everyone. It's just great to be connected and, you know, to be in community with each other. Daniel Yeah. Tim Do you have a trip coming up next? I know you're like, you know, in Boston it's it's snowy. You haven't been climbing outside, but when's your next, what are your next plans to go to the Philippines? Daniel I'm actually hoping to go there in May again of, this year, before, like, any sort of, like, potential, like, internships might be happening. I think. I go to Northeastern, school ends around like April, like late April. So that whole time between, like, May and the whole month of May, like, I'm hoping I can save enough funds to, like, get out there again. Tim Sick. Is it? Do you like it in May? Because you've gotten a couple times around that time of year. Daniel Yeah, it's, I think that's around the time beehive usually has their, summer count, like Rocka. Yeah, I think that's what it's called. And who knows, there might be, like, another gym opening. I think it's, there's, like, Good Climbs PH. That's like another gym that could be opening around that time. Tim Oh, yeah. Holy shit. I don't even. Daniel Know. Yeah, that's like another gym in like QC. opening night is projected to open soon. And I think there's, I don't know if you've seen, like, Boulder Space as well. That's like another, like mega gym. Not really make like a, a lot of the main people in the, like JX, Kuya Ger, and a lot of, a lot of other like prominent or who I consider to be prominent figures in, like, the PH climbing community. Daniel They're just building their own gym. I think that's really cool. Tim That's fucking awesome. Yeah. We need one in QC for sure. Daniel Yeah, yeah. But around that time, I guess the only thing that I'm kind of bummed is, outdoor season for bouldering, and Ambo not really there, so, that's that's the one thing. So I suppose. Tim There might be good swell in La Union. But there I'm not entirely sure if you surf. Daniel No, but, Yes, definitely around May. Looking forward to get back. Yeah, maybe CDO have something. We'll see. But, I wanted to quickly go back to the point that you made earlier in terms of, like what you sort of brought up with, being. Like visiting Filipino American climbers. Them connecting with the people behind the scenes. Daniel It's so much easier to do than it is over here, dude. Tim Holy shit. Daniel Like, if you ever want to talk to, like, a gym manager, like, I think or like event organizers over here, there's, like so many barriers to it in terms of like, not knowing. I guess in that same vein, a visiting climber wouldn't really, know. But there's. So since the community is, like significantly smaller than it is in the US, like there's so willing to, like come in and see new climbers and especially like visiting climbers and show them, like that. Daniel That was sort of like a big thing. Every time I go back, you kind of just need to find like one. And then the rest of the dominoes, like, start falling into place, I suppose. Is that a proper way to say it? In terms of, like, getting involved with the people behind the scenes? Like, I remember, the first time I'd met someone, quote unquote, behind the scenes. Daniel It was, Mick Not sure I forget his last name. Oh my goodness. Tim Mick, is he based in Manila? Daniel Yeah. He, Daniel He helped build GHive (Greenhills BHive) Tim Oh, sick. Daniel Yeah, I oh, I was the original Manila based Mick. He helped, I think I was just climbing one day and he tapped me on the shoulder. Kind of recognized I wasn't like from there, because I think I was, like, talking in English a lot. Yeah. And he was like, hey, do you want to, do you want to climb outside? Daniel And I was like, oh, yeah, that would be awesome. So, you know, like people like that, they are very willing to, like, accommodate and show you, like what other experiences you could have climbing in the Philippines. So just like even I think even Milo, when he went to Vertex to set for the Philippine Nationals, I sort of asked him like, whoa, how did you end up doing that? Daniel Getting in that position in the first place? He said, I've met him after I've gotten back, and I told him about a couple of gyms, and one of them was vertex, and he just straight up called the EMS, Joe and Vertex on Instagram. And then that's how he got that. Daniel Got into that situation Tim I thought they, like, knew each other. Daniel Oh no, they did not like, Milo was just like, oh yeah, this I think he said, oh, I saw this gym. Congratulations on the space. And Joe was like, yeah, if you're ever in the Philippines, come set. And then one thing led to another. And then he was just there for like three months later, I think it was because, yeah, by the time I got back in April, like late April, I saw him in May. Daniel He was there in August. Like just that whole like escalation can happen so quickly because they're so they're so open. They're so open to it. Tim Yeah. They're so open to it. Daniel The willingness to ask, I guess, is something that should be emphasized more like if you ask the right people ask though, like knocking around the tree, like apples would fall out. Tim So yeah, talk to the right people for sure. I that's a great point. Like we don't really because one on the one hand you learn obviously you're like learning. Yeah. If you want to learn from like a developer or a setter but on the other hand you're they're gaining they're like getting support, which is like a win win. Tim And we don't really do that as much here in the States. Like it's very things are a little bit more gatekept when it comes to like development or setting or. Yeah, things like that. But there it's, it's a lot more open, which I, which I love. I'm curious. I also wanted to ask this question for climbers listening from the Philippines right now, what do you think film climbers often misunderstand about their reality? Charm Tim Another tough question, but I'm curious what you would say to that. Daniel I think I would say like, wait, so what? Wrong assumption? Not not wrong assumptions, but what assumptions do Fil-Am climbers have of Philippine climbers? That what was the question? Tim Yeah. So for what? What do you think Fil-Am climbers might misunderstand about, the reality of Philippines based climbers? Daniel Okay. So I think like a big one, I guess this is it still applies now, even with, like the newer gyms over there. But, assuming like being able to get into, like any type of not not just climber, like any type of like recreational activity of the Philippines, like, requires some level of like fight like monetary like resource that you have. Daniel Or like we kind of talked about this earlier, like building a lifestyle around climbing, and doing that. And I think like that is very different. Compared to like the U.S, like you can go to like any gym, climbing in the US is still expensive, but like you have people like a varied like incomes in the US, that are climbing all the time, versus in the Philippines. Daniel It could be like sometimes it might just be the more, Affluent climbers essentially. Yeah. So it it makes you appreciate the ones that even more that are just like climbing. They just built it into the lifestyle. Tim What feels what kind of perspective do you think you'll be bringing when you go back to the Philippines? Daniel This is a strange, sorry perspective I'm bringing back because when I think about, like, climbing out there now, sorry, the question was like bringing perspectives over, is that like perspective of the climber from the US to the Philippines or. Tim Yeah, like you as a climber from the US. And maybe a better way to ask this is like if there's one word that summarizes the kind of like energy or posture or perspective you're bringing to the Philippines as you visit from the States, what would that word be? So for me, if I'm going back a word that I would have in my head is like, I don't want to say where, but like connected, I guess, like I want to be more connected with the people that I see there. Tim And just like, deepen my relationships with them, basically, like, deepen my friendships. That's something that my partner and I always talk a lot about is we have friends over there who we care about. And then, like, all of a sudden we go back home. And then when we go back to the Philippines, it feels it feels like we never left in a way, you know. Tim And so it's it's cool to carry on those relationships. So my word would be like, connected, I guess. I'm curious what yours would be. Daniel Okay, I, I think my word in that context would just be, like, more, curious, I suppose, because I think, like, every time I go back, it's felt like different, but different in a good way. Like getting exposed to, like, different, aspects of what's happening. And I think that is like a sort of a good, expectation to have, when going back there. Daniel Just because things can change so quickly, like, like I mentioned earlier, there's like a handful of new gyms that are opening up in the space. There's two of them that I can think of. There's one in Cebu, Iman's gym and CDO. He's like, redoing his whole home wall thingy. Yeah. It's like there's just, like, so much that goes on. Daniel So just like trying to connect as well, with those spaces and those people, but also just like just having a curious mind and, like trying to see as much as I can, because, like, I think right now, Philippine climbing is still like in a space where overall, like, you can definitely see the direction that it's trending and it's extremely positive. Daniel Yeah. But it's so young relative to like how things are like. And even not, it not only in the US, but like other countries around it. Like if you look at like Singapore or like Japan or Korea, like those very mature climbing markets, just in general, but like in the Philippines, it's like, oh, wow, all these things are popping up now. Daniel I kind of want to know everyone because how cool would that be to just like, you know, have a connection to those people? Yeah. So I think that that would be the word I would like, I would say. Tim Curious. It's a good word. There is. You're right. Like, it is a pretty I experience it to be a pretty nascent, scene for sure, but it is growing. And with that, like, more and more people are curious about climbing outside and, even finding out about this podcast, you know, it's kind of crazy to stay here. I went to TS Powerup TS on my trip back home, and there were climbers who, like, knew about the podcast, which is cool. Tim So, you know, it's just. Daniel That's awesome! Tim It speaks to the fact that it's like, not not to toot our own horn, but it's like, oh, yeah, we want this podcast to be a resource for people who are like learning about, like to hear firsthand from the people who are, you know, I guess paving the path for climbing in the Philippines. But yeah, I think this is like, this is a really great conversation and one that, obviously needs to happen more and more. Tim And, as more and more, Fil-Ams climbers are just, like, curious to learn more about climbing in the Philippines. It's great to have it's great to talk about it and like, make space for it and encourage, other people here to do it. I guess my last two questions for you are are there any other final words or thoughts you want to leave with the listeners, considering that, like our listener base, are both climbers in the Philippines and also in the states, climbers in the States? Tim So final words and who do you want to shout out? Daniel Great. I guess for the listeners in the Philippines, keep doing what you're doing. Every time I visit, I want to not to have to leave. I want it makes I want to come back immediately, essentially. Like, the experience is, like, amazing. Getting to know everyone. Just keep doing what you're doing over there. And I'll try my best to keep show it up as I can, just because they make it so fun to go back. Daniel And for the people in the States, if you have the ability to, just. And if you're ever curious about climbing in the Philippines, I would highly, highly recommend you check it out and experience it for yourself because, you know, this is it's something climbing is really, in a sense, it's sort of like reaffirm. Daniel No, it's kind of like brought in its own flavor for me in terms of like helping me feel more Filipino. Like that's like a huge, you know, aspect of, like, climbing. But I didn't even realize at the time that I felt, sorry. Getting some notifications, are good, but the more that I have, like, climbed and experience climbing in the Philippines, the more I've gone from, like, you know, I've just been more proud to be Filipino. Daniel Yeah. And it's like, improve that whole flavor for me. Yeah, yeah. And I just shout out to the whole BHive community. Shout out to the Power of Centro Community. Shout out to CDO Orchid gym. Shout out to Pat's love Pat's. But yeah, so strong, so strong, so strong. Yeah. Tim So that's the Pats shout outs to the, Pilipinas National Climbing team, to our biggest where we're fans over here for sure. And, Daniel, you'll have to go back to, you'll have to go back to Uling Wall and send Cafe de Wawa. You got a little project out there. Daniel So. Yeah. Oh, yeah. Looking forward to that for sure. Tim Awesome, man. Well, thanks so much for offering up your time again. It's, super appreciated. Best of luck with the masters in the job search on the East Coast. And maybe who knows. Maybe you'll land in Colorado. Maybe you'll land back here in California. You know, the world is. Your world is your oyster. But exciting time for sure. Daniel Thanks Tim. Charm Unknown