13. Taking Up Space as a Powerful Woman with Katrina Fasulo

Today's episode is so special because I’m joined by one of my dearest friends, Katrina Fasulo! Katrina is an arts leader whose journey is full of resilience, self-discovery, and unapologetic growth. She shares her story of navigating imposter syndrome, workplace dynamics, and early experiences of being bullied for standing out as a tall, self-assured woman.

Katrina opens up about what it’s taken to step fully into her power- learning to take up space, leaning on mentorship, and creating spaces of belonging. She shares how her internal drive and commitment to alignment have fueled a career filled with leadership roles, a national network of powerhouse women, and a more sustainable, fulfilling way of living and working.

If you’ve ever felt like you were “too much,” or questioned your place in the room, this episode is for you!! Katrina’s wisdom is a reminder that you’re allowed to take up space, go after the big things, and lead with confidence.

Transcript

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Welcome to Success Through Scars, the podcast where we turn our most painful struggles into our greatest success stories. I'm Annie Esso, a multi-passionate entrepreneur, business mentor, and professional singer who's overcome anorexia C-P-T-S-D, depression and anxiety. Each week, you'll hear powerful stories of resilience from people who have transformed their deepest pains into testimonies of strength. If you are feeling lost or broken, but have big goals, you are in the right place. Whether your scar comes from a traumatic past, a breakup, a near death experience, or a mental health struggle, remember this, your scars are proof that you survived and scar tissue rebuilds and repairs itself, and you come out stronger on the other side. I hope this podcast can bring you the hope you need to keep going. Let's walk this journey of finding success through scars together. Hello. Hello, and welcome back to another episode of Success through Scars. Today we have one of my dear friends, Katrina Falo here with us today, and Katrina is a badass in every sense of the word. I'll let her introduce herself and tell us more about what she does and who she is. Because she has an amazing story and she's just an incredible human, and I want you to hear it from her. Hi, my name is Katrina Falo and I am thrilled to be here. Annie and I have been friends, colleagues dreamers together for the last decade. And I'm originally from New York City. Once upon a time an opera singer turned arts leader. Currently I serve as the director of Individual Giving at Detroit Opera. But I have had a bi-coastal career a little bit by way of the last decade following my husband with his career path as a submarine officer. I've had the really great fortune of working with organizations like Seattle Symphony, Seattle Opera, the Fifth Avenue Theater Opera, Saratoga. Glimmer glass once upon a time, loft opera. I feel really fortunate to have seen, so many different scales of companies and different ecosystems and different geographies. I have my bachelor in opera and a minor in performing arts management and entrepreneurship. I always felt there was a pull there and I think that's why. Besides our great friendship, Annie and I are aligned on so much, and I have my master's in arts Leadership from Seattle U I love that. And like I was saying, the list goes on and on. Katrina is Queen of networking she actually came on my Hundo club program and did a whole training on LinkedIn and how to network using LinkedIn she just knows everyone. So I'm just so grateful to have you on the podcast since Katrina and I are such great friends, it's a little bit weird for us to be having this formal interview setting. So Katrina, what's the biggest struggle that you feel like you've been through with your career? Yeah, I think It is interesting because I think there's a couple different lenses I could approach this. But as I was going through some of the pre-work for this podcast, I was thinking about all of the different ones and how they all centralize around being a woman and identity, particularly on the side of that leadership course. From one lens, certainly as I entered into my professional career. This gendered role or societal conditioning of the expectation, of I followed my husband's career and that was a choice I made. And I feel really immensely grateful that I was able to thrive and not only just survive the shifts moving every two to three years is really tough, right? And to also be able to build momentum and a career. I've been really proud of how I've advanced in that the first move certainly was not easy. being able to really be flexible and pivot through that, also, I think working in the arts is great as a sector as opposed to the straight up corporate or sales world, it is a little bit more diverse and understanding and a little ahead of the curve, but in many ways also still behind the curve, like being in fundraising and philanthropy particularly being met with the archetypes of the glass ceiling Very much a man's world the boardroom speak the golf course, the boys club kind of culture that does come with that old guard of philanthropy is something that was completely foreign to me. And to have to navigate that and in these systems of like hierarchy and structure and how to show up authentically, but also assertively and to advocate for yourself and your value proposition. I wanna recap for our listeners something that Katrina just said. She has moved, what, three, four times? In the last eight years, and has gotten a job at a major opera company in whatever city she's moved to, has completely rebuilt herself every single time. Despite all of these other challenges, she's talking about the glass ceiling and. Despite all the setbacks placed on women, she has rebuilt herself in different cities four times, in order to do that, you have to be a certain type of person and embody certain qualities, their leadership qualities, but they're also just resilience, strength, self-worth. What do you think those qualities are that have allowed you to do that? Yeah, I think a little bit of it is that sense of self, the really strong drive. We just talked a little bit as we were framing this episode about our younger ages and dealing with bullying or this or that, right? I think for me, at a really young age I always had a really strong sense of self regardless of what was mirrored to me or outward. Perspectives or opinions or the negative thoughts I just repelled that. I never really let that detract me, from my drive. So I think that sense of internal drive is so important. The imposter syndrome and jumping over the hurdle of that, I think. Systems in place helped me navigate that. I've had structured mentorship, but I've also done a lot of research and work over the course of my career understanding mentorship is not always what women need. And I think it's often what's prescribed. Like you just need a mentor or you just need someone to teach you their ways and yes, that's great. But Sometimes you just need sponsorship, like someone pulling up a seat at the table for you. Sometimes you just need an advocate someone to give you the space in the work that you're already doing and to give you agency, not to be micromanaged. Those other types of allyship, I guess is the umbrella term maybe are so important. And I think once I started recognizing that and being able to advocate for myself is when I started finding success and also finding the framework or the literacy. I've been doing a lot of reading and work lately to explore things that are helpful for me in framing the types of conversations I need to have to stand up for myself or to advocate my case in the work that I do. So if there's someone listening who wants to be in your position, let's say it's a young woman who's maybe just graduating college and she wants to be an arts admin, and she's noticing that she's getting undermined by certain people. What are some of those scripts that you would share with her? Yeah, I would say the first thing is to recognize the power dynamic in, and this goes for corporate workplaces as well, right? Just in the workplace there is absolutely in any hierarchy, power dynamic. I'm a really strong proponent of change management. change and influence can come from any level of an organization. So even if your entry level role, if you're a strong strategic thinker and as long as you're working, in cohesion with a team, that you're not just stepping out of bounds and acting as a free agent. But if you're able to, work in systems of change management. You can influence change from any level, which I think is a great lesson that I've learned. I think another interesting term, and this comes from my engagement with the Women's Opera Network, which is part of Opera America an affinity group and consortium network, Just finding those spaces of affinity has been affirming because you have other people as a sounding board. a term that I recently learned. and was really resonant was this thing called the credibility gap. Have you ever heard of it? the credibility gap is intersectional too, right? as you have different identities, that stack on top of each other, it's more latent and present. But women are more likely to have their expertise questioned. and their competence scrutinized, which means that you're spending so much more time having to continually prove your value. that resonated so much for me because I think this is something you can talk about even in relationship dynamics, right? the emotional labor, Or the mental load in a relationship often falls to the woman. When I have near points of burnout in the past, it's because I've reached this point, Of having to prove myself over and over again. Like the feeling of haven't we been here already? Haven't I proved my competence? X, y, or z? And having to manage up and having to manage laterally sometimes that was a really great new addition to my lexicon of how to speak about these things. having talked about this with a couple other people, it's not an isolated experience all of my women. Identifying friends who are in the workforce are like, yes, that, that's been really helpful for me in building that framework and language of how do we talk about these things so that we can move past them? And then how did you actually move past it? Did you have to have really hard conversations with people that were undermining you, or what was that like? I have an example that comes to mind, which is mind boggling. leadership influences a company here in Detroit. We have a female CEO, which is amazing. And there is a great culture shift that's happened I've only been here since her tenure, so I can't speak to how it's ebbed and flowed. in a prior organization, thinking of the work and the agency I have now versus prior fundraising roles, there is an innate power dynamic, There is the philanthropist or the donor who holds the money, who holds the power in you as the nonprofit entity, or sometimes made to feel in a sense of subservience or, in a donor-centric model, you're made to feel like you have to cater to their needs to get the cash in hand. So I'm thinking of prior roles that I've had where, there's been a restriction of access to work with some high level donors. I've had board members usually older men who have felt territorial over relationships and, Not let you hold your own. sometimes I just embrace the model of forgiveness not permission, and it's worked really well. every time that I've done that, within reason I've been able to prove that I can have a really sophisticated conversation when we're moving in a system of clear focus, we're talking about the art, the mission and the for impact work. None of that other stuff matters because if it's the right type of donor and you're able to find that opportunity that really resonates with that person you can strip back all of these things, the generational divide, the gender divide, the racial divide even, All of these identifiers we're both here for one purpose, which is the art, which is the mission, which is the impact. moving towards that type of model, particularly in donor relations has been really helpful. when I'm able to just report on the tail end, like the success rather than be met with all the apprehension and the reluctance, that's been great for me. You keep all those kudos, you keep that track record of success. I keep a folder of. Kudos that I've received positive notes from donors, from patrons feedback. So even when you're self-doubting, if you have that imposter syndrome, if you hit that wall yourself where you're feeling the burnout or the fatigue, you're able to give yourself, a little confidence boost and say, I've got this, and here's all the receipts to back that up. I love so much of what you just said. I kind of wanna recap some of my favorite things you just said. So first of all, the idea of when you are presented with the situation where there's an imbalance of power, focusing on the fact that you both have the same mission of the same goal. That's brilliant. I love that. And then what you said about ask for forgiveness, not for permission. I feel like that goes so well with who I know you to be as a person just innately because. You take what you want, but you're so freaking humble about it. Thank you. I just love that so much. Ask for forgiveness and not for permission. And I think as women we have to do that because if we ask for permission for everything we do, no one's really gonna give it to us. Like I've seen that too, where people even, especially when I first started my business, people constantly undermined me because I was young, but I was also knowledgeable. I knew what I was talking about. I had the life experience to back it up. But people look at my age and my face and the fact that I'm a woman and they're like, oh, you don't know what you're talking about. I actually have been advised and I have been doing this for a while I was told take your age. off your resume, take it off of your LinkedIn, because there is that bias that is generational compounded, this gets into heuristics the mental shortcuts that we take to make quick decisions, which like leans into bias. So there's for women. Heuristics can mean like being overlooked or underestimate, right? That credibility gap. So yeah, so I have been really conscious of that. Another favorite thing that you just reminded me right, is like the confidence in the face of adversity piece, which is a mentor of mine told me move through the world with half the confidence of a mediocre white man. There's this stat about like women who often hold back or don't apply to the job unless they meet like a hundred percent of the qualifications outlined in the job listing. it's proven that men. Apply for jobs. they're only 60 or 70% qualified for. that was. refreshing to me because sometimes we're socially conditioned with this perfectionism mentality of I have to be perfect and can't allow myself the grace to mess up or to grow or learn. men are not usually socially conditioned in that way. They're encouraged to apply for the big job. They're encouraged to take the bold step. So I've always channeled that in the back of my head as I've been scaling and trying to grow my career as apply for the big job. Take that leap, know you're allowed to take up space. Like all of those things have been so important in the way I'm like retraining myself to maneuver in the workplace. Yes, I love that. And also part of being strong is learning to take up space Oftentimes women are told to shrink ourselves and to be smaller. And I know for you that's hard to do because you're literally six foot tall. Yeah, exactly. We talked about this too, like how I'm six one technically. And I have a larger stature and I love it and I'm totally comfortable in it now as far as height, I was six feet tall in the sixth grade, right? we talk about these core memory forming and early development of sense of self. that was an area I had to grow myself and combat a little bit, I did fencing, which was very dorky but fun. I was put on the basketball team I was encouraged and celebrated for the height. Women grow faster than men so I was always taller than my peers. it was right around the time of Hurricane Katrina, so that was a nickname that came around when I was in school. And I did feel a sense of shyness or shame around taking up space which I'm still combating and I'm still working through, From the credibility standpoint and from the agency standpoint in the workplace, I think I've come a really far away in that. If I can embody that more in my personal life, that's always a work in progress I'd love to, wear the dress I want or do the things that you know, but yeah, that's so important. Take up the space. Hell yeah. Hell yeah. I didn't know that people called you that. That's horrible. Kids are so mean. Oh yeah. Kids are so mean and they're, I love what you said too about how it's still a work in progress for you, because that just goes to show that you are embracing life with the confidence of a mediocre white man, because despite having this. Setback in your brain like, oh, I'm scared to take up space. You're still going for it and still applying for different jobs and getting a new job in every city you're going to because of John's work. That's so amazing. Thank you. I love that so much. Yeah, it's been good. Lemme see. I think too I'll just say the other thing on the flip side is like growing up as a theater kid, as an opera kid in New York City. I was in the Children's chorus from the age of five years old in a small opera company on the Upper East side. I have a friend who was in another children's opera company that world, especially in the early two thousands, was brutal where we were in this pop culture phase of disordered eating crash diets and magazines, And then for that to be thrust upon you as a young child, a friend was, six or seven years old and was body shamed, For not fitting into a pre-designed opera costume. I didn't have that experience myself we had a really great wardrobe head. But I think that particularly in the performing arts we've come a long way, but there's still work to be done there. I think that is such a core memory that's so ingrained into people In the realm of taking up space. Is this opera industry. We are arriving in a cool place now, but we're in 2025, there's still a whole two decades plus where there is a lot of toxicity to undo both on the performance side. we're still seeing these pervasive issues on the leadership side too, like nationally and internationally. having that multihyphenate performer and administrator lens. I see the rise of like people in our generation stepping into leadership is creating the change in the systems that harmed us, we're not perpetuating the harm, but building the ecosystems in these organizations of what we wish we had, And in that it's healing for yourself, but it's also doing better for the longevity of the sector. Yes. I love that. Can you talk about some of the things that you are working on right now with Detroit Opera? Yeah. Oh, I'm happy to. I came here a little bit over a year ago Previously I was a one person development team, meaning I was in charge of everything for contributed revenue, but also towards earned revenue. I was supporting marketing efforts and ticket sales, I was also doing. Grant writing, working with our foundations, working with our artist sponsors and major donors working with direct mail and our annual fund donors. Working with our corporations, doing all of our events, our galas, our fundraisers. it was very overwhelming and that fatigue or burnout was around the corner. Now coming into more of an individual giving role here at Detroit Opera. I've been really grateful to spend a lot of my time getting to know the community. As a student at U of MI knew Ann Arbor well, but I didn't really get to know and immerse myself in Detroit. So that has been a ton of fun. Getting to hear the living history of people who have been with the company since its founding. A really integral part of this company through 20 17, 20 18, right before his passing. And so very much in many ways, this is still a nostalgic and founder company, but we're in this incredible new era with our CEO Patty Isaacson Sebe, our executive director, and then Yuval Sharon, our artistic director, and who is one of the. It names an opera. Right now we're doing this world premier performance of his brand new Cote adoption. so we're at this sweet crossroads where we're looking back and honoring everything that it was and looking ahead at what can be for the future of opera on this national scale. So we've launched a national circle. Celebrating Detroit Opera and its role in world premieres or co-productions. We had The Life Times of Malcolm X that went onto the Met. Same thing for co-productions like Aina, DeMar, breaking the Waves, which have gone onto the Met to Houston Grand Opera. And then also I've launched this young Patron Circle, so D Society Prelude, which is a giving program for people under 40. In giving them a discount and a ramp up towards philanthropy. So there's monthly giving modules, right? Like we all are in media culture. We have our Netflix or Hulu subscriptions on the monthly basis. And why can we not be also offering something that's bite size and tangible and set and forget, right? That you don't have to think about. This big chunk of money as a commitment to support an arts institution, but that it can really fit seamlessly into your life. So that's been a lot of what I've been working on is launching this program and also understanding that people's motives across generations are different for going to the performing arts and opera. Some people wanna go because they really want a great night out and they want. To take that selfie in the beautiful grand lobby and they want a glass of wine and to network. Or some people might go because they really love the art and they just want to see high quality performance happening in their hometown. Or they want to go because they care about social change and dialogues that are, interfacing with topics that are really resonant and pervasive today. So we have, the Central Park five coming up, which is based on a very real life event that happened, right? And we're still seeing themes that are really central, that are hitting in this current. Administration, right? And so how do we talk about that and how do we create space for community and create care for community in all of that too? So those are the questions we're grappling with, which is what makes it so exciting to be in a company that is thinking this way in light of federal funding cuts that we're not shying away from talking about what is true to what we feel the arts need to be a conduit of. And for that, I'm so grateful. Damn, you're so good at your job and I can tell that you really love it too. coming from more of a working class upbringing in New York, I. Felt elite. My opera origin story was that my mom, who is a classical music lover, got tickets to La Boem at the Metropolitan Opera in the Family Circle. I was five years old, had no clue what was going on, but she explained to me. She's singing with no microphone and just the sheer fascination of how her voice cut over the orchestra. And we were way up in the rafters. I just fell enamored with the human voice and the power of that, and that was how I fell in love with it. And so for me, fundraising became really scary because these were not conversations I was having in my household growing up, My parents are both working toward their retirement. But for me, there wasn't this talk about investing and IRA distributions, trusts and estate planning and all of these things. So it felt really foreign and scary to me as an early administrator how do I navigate into this world that feels so disjunct from what I know. And the beauty is exactly that of just finding the pairing of what is resonant, what are the things that people care about that either are being said through the music or the aesthetics, The educational programming or whatever we're doing, like, where do I find the synapses and where do I draw the lines and make the matches? And then it becomes the easiest thing in the world, right? Because you're just helping someone use their money for good in the ways that they want to activate it. I love that. are you okay talking about like how you decided to do arts band instead of singing? Yeah. Cool. Okay. So I wanna switch gears for a second here and talk about how you decided that you wanted to switch gears from singing into art to admin. Do you mind sharing a little bit about that journey?'cause I'm sure there's people listening who are singing full-time or maybe hopping from gig to gig or maybe singing and doing something else part-time and they want to get into doing exactly what you're doing. How did you make that decision? you and I have talked about this a lot, As someone who is, very similar to me in that. You are so strategic and you are a serial entrepreneur I think I felt for myself when I was a student growing up in New York, I went to LaGuardia, which is the fame school, the performing arts high school. And so I said, okay, I guess I have to pursue a career in singing. This is my passion, this is my lifeblood, But for me, when I got to college. I wasn't spending the time that I should have in the practice rooms. I felt the draw to be around opera and to be around the art, but the transient of the career is tough, and I saw that from colleagues and peers that were just a few years ahead in the pipeline from me, and I didn't want that for myself. I didn't think I had. The grit to solely focus on that. when I was a student the landscape is changing a little bit more. There's more of this dialogue about portfolio career and there's more of this dialogue about building robust different income streams that feed into one another. But for me it felt all or nothing in that moment. I really felt drawn to. Supporting artists having been one myself and having reaped the benefits of being scholarship recipient or being. Gifted opportunities for programs that were typically paid I felt this draw into the arts admin world, at that point I didn't know if it was development. my thesis is on audience engagement. And I love that world as well. demystifying and opening up the opportunity for people to try opera for the first time. But I did fall inevitably into fundraising. it doesn't cut me off from doing other things that I love in the arts. So I love that reference you just gave for anyone who does not know. Do you wanna explain your reference When you said Ma, it's, from Barbara Seville that really popular phrase where she's ma. I love it. Sorry to cut you off. Just had to mention that. Dorky but all of that to say, I still do other things and it's really fulfilling on the side. I have other income streams. I feel like we don't talk about it so much in a conventional way. Like it's usually you have your singing job and then if you do your admin it's sneakily on the side or you have your full-time job and therefore. Your other things are hush. But for me, you and I just sing in the Carmen at the Detroit Symphony. I was really grateful when I lived in Saratoga Springs, New York to find an ensemble that really liked to work with me. It was a semi-professional chorus. They hired me to be a soloist for this international choral music festival in Kingston, Ontario. So I got to sing some solo Mozart. I'm actually going back there this summer to sing in the ensemble for the Verde Requiem with the Philadelphia Orchestra and Yanique which is so fun in August. And I also am the festival manager for a summer music program in Queens, New York Queen Summer Vocal Institute, a program I participated in when I was a student. I work in a freelance consulting role with a performing arts presenter in Ann Arbor. I have this whole bountiful career of things that excite and interest me. a career isn't monolithic, I'm not just a fundraiser. Just because I don't make my full income doesn't mean that I'm not an artist anymore. Just because I do these other things doesn't limit me To one or the other. that's what I love moving from a portfolio career to more of this is the platform career. All of these things are supportive to one another. how do we. Build the most robust ecosystem and matrix of things that support the life that we want. I love that so much, and you know that I am right there with you. I think it's so important as singers to have other careers that we also enjoy so that we don't put so much pressure. On ourselves, like from the financial side of things, but also so that we don't over identify with being a singer to the point where there's ego involved, I love that so much. when I work with these young singers, like college age singers and out of college in that emergent, pre-professional moment, I talk about the portfolio career A lot of the feedback I receive or the resistance is this questioning of is this making me less of an artist? And the answer is no. And then there's also this questioning of I've only spent my time so intently focused in my collegiate time on the art making. Usually it's women, right? But it goes right back into that thing of the imposter syndrome. But what I offer to those people in that position is that being an artist, and particularly being a singer, there is so much robust and rich development of soft skills that translates so nicely into other sectors. That doesn't just mean I'm a singer and I guess I have to be a voice teacher too. It could also mean I do language coaching or I do administrative work I see a lot of singers navigate into fundraising because you have that ability to. Read situations and there's that social psychology element and the conversational element. any singer who's worked a gala function or some other event has had to interface and talk with donors before. So there's a whole plethora of not only the hard skills and the tenacity and the grit and the discipline of practicing and those sorts of things, but there's also. This umbrella of things that you might not be giving yourself credit for, that could open up doors for you too. I love that.'cause yeah, I think a lot of times singers do put themselves in boxes and like you said, they're like, I've been working on this the past four years and I don't really have any other skills. And I found myself in that place too by my junior year, which is why I started, getting my personal training certification because. I felt like I didn't have anything else that I could do I didn't realize that having a music degree made me a better communicator. It made me good at negotiating with people because I had skills on how to talk about the pay that I was getting, it made me a great saleswoman because I have to sell myself when I'm singing anyways. It made me great at marketing because I understood innately that you have to sell yourself and your voice. So there's so much that goes into it that I don't think people recognize. So I'm glad you brought that up, you're such the perfect example of that too, especially with strength where singers and all of that as well, because you in your own self-consciousness of identifying a need and a niche. You said, this doesn't exist for myself. And you said let me get the credibility that I need to build that. And so you've helped like hundreds of people, right? And you're the number one example I think of when I think of that hustler or that person that speaks it into existence because you have that strategic analysis skill and you know the way your brain works. That's why I think we vibes will so well together sometimes. Yeah. Aw, thank you. And I think too that I can see it in other people and that's why I love doing what I do now, which is my Crescendo Club program and sharing how to start a business with my fellow singers and performers. So speaking of college, Katrina, I know that your college experience was rough in some ways to tie it back to what we were talking about at the beginning of this interview being seen as intimidating or taking up too much space when you were just being yourself. Can you talk a little bit more about that and how you overcame that? Absolutely some of the initial reasons why I think we were drawn to each other is because of that, seeing that in one another. absolutely. coming to Ann Arbor as a born and bred New Yorker, I guess I was perceived as having somewhat of an intense. Energy. When I was 18, I wore almost all black. My wardrobe was pretty, like very New York. I think that I was labeled. Yeah. I think we had a friend of ours who was like, I was really intimidated by you, Katrina, but then I got to know you and we were cool And that same friend said to me. There's this new girl, her name's Katrina, and she's really intimidating, and I said, let me meet her right now. So I think that was a moment of reflection where I questioned do I dim my light? Do I change how I maneuver these circumstances in order to respond to how I'm being perceived? Or do I. lean in further and embrace authenticity and allow people to decide and discern for themselves if I am quote unquote intimidating, or that they can just in due time, learn my kindness or my ways. And that was a pivotal moment of reflection for me in. Deciding to lean into my true self rather than conform to expectations. I think I have embraced a little bit though I do love a bold print. If you know me, my wardrobe is very much more colorful now than it was back then. I did not view you as intimidating because you and I are cut from the same cloth. I wonder if it was just your height or the fact that you were from New York or the fact that you were a very self-assured, confident woman. And I don't know if you knew this, but when you and I met, I was not. That confident because I was overcoming an eating disorder. I was a sophomore and just starting to get into consistent weight training, so I was building my confidence. I saw that within you and knew I had it within myself, and I think I was outwardly expressing it a little bit at that time. It's funny because anytime a woman is confident or self-assured, people are like, oh, she's not humble, she's intimidating. She needs to tone it down. She needs to take a step back. She needs to stop taking up so much space. So yeah, I think like the nerdy data term or workplace term, the jargon is double bind, right? Where women are penalized or scrutinized for being too assertive, but are also then criticized on the flip side for being too passive. if you are passive you miss the opportunity of leaning into the moment or the experience or the next chance for something, that you wanna speak up and claim for yourself. I think it was a really pivotal moment and that reassurance of the more I reflect on it now with a little further time out from college, was that a judgment of me or a mirror? Of those individual's own insecurities or perceptions of self that they were reflecting off. I think that's such an important thing. And I don't say this in any way, to be malicious or diminishing to whomever had that perception of me, we all navigate through this world with our own insecurities and sensitivities, and that's each of us on our journey, to explore. But the more distance to that moment, I'm able to reassure myself and sink into the excitement and happiness that I did have that self-confidence to navigate and stay true to my authentic self. Yes, I love that. And you know what, I'll just say it. I think it was their perception because they're projecting. I always think that's the case, especially when. You are expressing your authentic self and you're not purposely trying to hype yourself up out of ego or to puff up your chest You're not doing that to try to be intimidating. You just are a strong person and people were intimidated by that. It's like that quote that we see on Instagram, I'm not intimidating. You are intimidated. There's a difference. Like my presence triggers you to see within yourself where you're lacking. And that's not my problem. I'm just a mirror to you. So I think that a lot of times strong women intimidate weak people, intimidate weak women, intimidate weak men, I think if you can see it within someone else and. admire that quality, that means you have it within yourself. But if you see something within someone else and it's jealousy or resentment then it probably means that you want what they have subconsciously, and you're not letting yourself have it. It's exactly that. It's how you channel that energy. if you see it and it's looked at through the view of aspirational, right? You channel that energy productively and you can in, you can influence your own sense of self and trajectory, but if you channel it in a negative way as jealousy there's not a lot of space to grow with that energy. I love that. So I guess my last question for you when it comes to this is how did you overcome that? Like getting from, okay, people are intimidated by me and this is making me feel some sort of way, was there a time when you held back because you were afraid of people being too intimidated by what you were gonna say or not wanting to be around you They were intimidated by you? What was that like? Because you don't do that anymore. No. I think as I've gotten older, I've allowed myself to feel really a good sense of comfort in having a small but trusted group of friends, mentors confidants, it goes back to that internal drive, having a really strong sense of purpose, commitment to your own personal growth, and surrounding yourself with alike people. I love when you and I, for example, you take your CEO days and when I'm able to work remote, I gain so much energy, From coworking in a coffee shop together because, I'm matching your wavelength. I feel like you bring me up and hopefully vice versa. Mentorship. And I think finding those spaces of affinity or support is so important. I've had, Structured mentorship through Opera America. I was in the fifth cohort of the mentorship program for women administrators, Julia, who runs opera Columbus was my mentor and she is like the ultimate Renaissance woman in that. She's a CEO, she's a scenic designer, she's a stage director. She does it all. So finding those people who are. A few stages ahead of you and who have the willingness and the capacity to mentor you if you don't have the structure provided to you. I think the number one thing I've learned that is really helpful in identifying those mentors is being really clear. It's like the Brene Brown quote, clear is kind, unclear, is unkind. So if you're reaching out to someone, you don't just say Hey, can you mentor me? That's so vague and. Can be off-putting, but to say with authenticity, Hey, I'm really admiring what you're doing with X, Y, and z tangible thing. do you have 30 minutes of time for an informational interview? Can I take you for a cup of coffee or a Zoom conversation? being really clear and with a clearly defined and discreet amount of time. People are really willing, especially women to women. I've noticed people are really willing to help. So that's been great. And yeah, just creating communities of like-minded people has been the way forward. I love that. And for anyone listening, I do offer. Coffee chats. it's like an online meeting where you get to pick my brain for 30 minutes. And if anyone is interested in what Katrina is doing and wants to have her as a mentor, I'm sure you would do the same thing. Yeah, definitely. Really happy to. I love that. So Katrina, anything else you wanna share with our listeners before we end the interview? Oh gosh. Thank you for listening to us chat. This has been a lot of fun. Getting to talk with Annie about work career and personal journeys. In many ways, so much of our friendship hangs are very much this. We get a little heady sometimes, and we talk about the big picture stuff, which is great. I think just to like recap, it's self-worth, self-drive is so important to centralize and recognize that sometimes it's not mentorship. Sometimes you need sponsorships, sometimes you need agency, and there are many ways for that to manifest. Apply for the big job always. And yeah, I think that. The more you could be a change maker or surround yourself with others who are willing to take those steps is really fulfilling. So Katrina, if anyone wants to connect with you, where can we find you? You can find me on LinkedIn, Katrina Falo maybe down the road. Also on Spotify with the podcast coming soon. Yes. Katrina is starting her own podcast, so be on the lookout for that opera and the everyday. if you're curious about the world of opera, we're going to talk to a bunch of excellent people who have different roles in the industry and also do some opera myth busting. I think there's a lot of pop culture preconceived notions about what opera is or can be, and we're gonna. Debunk those or talk about them. I love it. I'm so excited for your podcast. It's gonna be so good. Thank you for joining me, Katrina. on Success through Scars, it sounds like your biggest scar in your life was this idea of being too much, and you have overcome that. And now you are corporate batty and just slaying in the opera world, I'm so proud of you and proud to call you a friend. Thank you. Likewise, love you. Thanks for joining me. Bye.