Diary of a Matchmaker

Masculinity in Crisis: Between Toxic and Weak w/ Dr. Omar Husain

• Halal Match • Episode 74

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Masculinity is either glorified or vilified, and single Muslims often pay the price. Women get told to avoid “dominant” men, while men are told to tone themselves down to avoid being toxic. The result? Confusion, frustration, and marriages built on false expectations.

In this conversation with Dr. Omar Husain, we confront the uncomfortable truths about masculinity in Islam. Men are challenged to stop outsourcing their growth and step into real responsibility. Women are pushed to look beyond smooth talk and test whether a man’s character is already rooted in faith.

If you think masculinity in Islam just means providing for the family, think again. This episode will make you question the assumptions shaping your search for marriage.

If something we said made you think, laugh, or feel seen, leave us a rating and review! It helps more people find the show. And hey, if you know someone who needs to hear this episode, send it their way. Sharing is caring!


Speaker 1:

What is the most important thing you have learned from the Masjid? You know, when we came, we had a lot of baggage. You guys don't have a lot of baggage. And I'm thinking to myself oh, we got plenty of baggage. We have so much baggage, right, we just didn't. Our flight was shorter, we didn't pack it and come across. We have plenty of baggage. And from those are things like this toxic masculinity and, you know, making men and women enemies of each other.

Speaker 2:

Assalamu alaikum, I'm Hiba.

Speaker 3:

And I'm Zaid.

Speaker 2:

You're listening to Diary of a Matchmaker.

Speaker 3:

A podcast that will take you into our world as matchmakers.

Speaker 2:

We'll share our experiences and offer advice for the single Muslim.

Speaker 3:

So let's dive in. Bismillah, assalamu alaikum everyone, welcome to another episode of Diary of a Matchmaker. I'm Zaid and on the other mic is my wife and co-host, hiba. So just the other day, alhamdulillah, we got an interesting story. It was a funny story actually, about an imam who also happened to be a counselor that was coming to advise his young students of knowledge. That was coming to advise his young students of knowledge. He arrived late and apologized and said to his students that, sorry about that, I was delayed counseling a couple who wasn't ready for marriage. The students asked oh, were they too young? What happened? And he said, no, they were just simply too stupid.

Speaker 3:

And we read this story and it really hit home for us because of course, we're professional matchmakers and we run into situations like this a lot. But the also interesting part is that one of the students is our guest today, dr Omar Hussain, who studied Islamic sciences at Al-Azhar University and holds a PhD in counselor education and supervision from the University of Texas at San Antonio. He's also a fitness instructor, licensed professional counselor in Texas, and serves the community as an imam and educator. Thank you for coming on as a guest, dr Omar Jazakallah khairan. Pleasure to be here, thank you. So I'm assuming some of your work kind of delves into premarital training and getting people ready for marriage. So do you run into situations like this, like in the story, where people just simply aren't ready for marriage?

Speaker 1:

Yes. So I deal with marriage really at just about every stage so premarital, marital, post-marital, people that have been married for 20 years, 30 years, so this is definitely not uncommon, this story when it comes to particularly maybe that college-ish age, when people are getting a little bit more serious about pursuing marriage. But you know, it also is how the marriage was approached right. So a lot of times I think a lot of conflict can be avoided if, for example, the guy and girl had just gotten their family involved rather than kind of doing all this stuff behind everybody's back, even if it was permissible. It isn't always those relationships are not always, they're not always doing the right thing, but even when they are doing the right thing, I would still argue that they should have gotten their families involved and it could have saved a lot of headache. Actually, I wouldn't need to argue that they should have done that. So that's where that sort of came in. But yeah, pretty much any stage in every stage we can think of in marriage.

Speaker 2:

Have you come across situations where the guy and girl were excited about marriage, they planned everything and they come to you just for some premarital counseling and then, through the counseling, they discovered that there are completely different in terms of like values and vision?

Speaker 1:

Yeah, that's a great question, because I think, in essence, premarital counseling should be to sort of see if you're compatible with the other person. But I get a lot of people that have sort of already made that decision. So now it's still good because they want to know, for example, about marital rights and responsibilities Islamically, or you know what some of the obligations are, which is good. I mean, they're certainly doing taking those steps, but they've kind of already made the decision, and so there have been times where perhaps there was some red flags raised in some of the responses, but they still sort of go through with it. So, you know, they just have to understand the decision that they're making, but I find that they're pretty much going to go with it. You know, regardless of what happens.

Speaker 3:

Interesting. There's a lot of things that come up when girls, especially, are searching for. Two things that typically come up for us are leadership and masculinity. Now, masculinity is such a hot topic, or has been for some time, especially the term toxic masculinity, and that usually gets associated with the name Andrew Tate for some reason. But how would you define masculinity in a way that's grounded in Islam but also relevant for men living in the West?

Speaker 1:

Well, the baseline for us is we are Muslims Like that's. We start there and then we figure everything else out. So a lot of times, you know, these terms get people very passionate and lead to a lot of arguing. So one of the things I want to know is why, right Before condemning, before supporting, I want to know why. Why do people feel a certain way about different terms, feel a certain way about, about about different terms? So let's start with masculinity, and I know I'm sure we'll get to toxic masculinity later, but really I mean islamically, I would say, for masculinity, think responsibility, responsibility in front of allah, subhanahu wa ta'ala. That's sort of the baseline.

Speaker 1:

So it's not. We don't define it by dominance, by overpowering, by arrogance. It's about integrity, it's about service to your family, it's about service to society and it's also about service to yourself, because the Prophet told us that إِنَّ لِجَسَدِكَ عَلَيْكَ حَقٌّ. Your body has a right over you, and sometimes people neglect that as well. It's not only about service to others, it's also about yourself and your relationship with Allah. So it's not about that sort of bravado and these kinds of manufactured things, but it's about responsibility and service, and that's a different way of looking at it.

Speaker 1:

The Prophet was very strong and courageous. He absolutely was, but he was also compassionate. He was also gentle with his family. He was available to his companions. You know how many times we see narrations like the companions came to the Prophet and they had some issue or problem. Right, that's counseling. Just because it's not in an office space or it doesn't have some board, uh fancy letters attached to it, that fundamental process of seeking counsel with someone who is perhaps more experienced or more knowledgeable or can guide, whatever the case may be, that's always sort of been there. So the Prophet had all of those and that is the model for masculinity. So I don't think we need to be confused with all of these, you know, fancy philosophies and things that come out of primarily the university system which I teach in and I've gone through, because we have a baseline and that's the Prophet and that's what it's measured by.

Speaker 3:

I see and I like, sorry, go ahead, hiba.

Speaker 2:

No, I just recalled an incident Like about two years ago. We had a person, a guy, who was interested in our service and we had him fill a registration form and answer questions and through the questions, like he revealed that he believes his role as a man, like his masculine role is or, like you said, his responsibility is to discipline his wife. And when we dug a little bit deeper we discovered that he had some I would say maybe some violent tendencies. We discovered that he had some I would say maybe some violent tendencies. So do you think there are like I know this is not a very common misconception that guys have, but what are some misconceptions, guys?

Speaker 1:

have about masculinity. So I think this idea of physical dominance without any sort of boundaries right. So again, let's take that sentence. My job is to discipline my wife. Like what exactly does that mean? Right? Maybe it could be worded a lot better Now it looks like in this case, when you dug deeper, it wasn't right. But ultimately in the marriage there are partners helping each other to grow. So I would hope that my life, my wife, would make me more disciplined as a man, and I would hope she would want or she would become more disciplined as a result of what I'm doing. That's very positive. That's different than sort of just dominating, not listening, shutting down and just saying do this and do that, not listening, shutting down and just saying do this and do that Right.

Speaker 1:

And that also comes in a misunderstanding of roles, of when we say you know, the man is leading the flock over the household, Right? So people don't understand these things. They don't understand how the Prophet Sallallahu Assalam lived. They kind of take what they want and then they put their own spin on it. So a lot of men are told like manhood is just financial status, and I would argue that cuts across all cultures. In fact some have taken it so far that they think that's the only responsibility that they have. So, yes, you are financially responsible, but that's not all that manhood is. That's not all being masculine, that's not the only thing that. It's about Emotional detachment, right. Yes, there's certain limits and restrictions and we have different natures as men and women, but to just always be emotionally detached is not a very healthy thing for yourself, for your family. But this is also another misconception that this is how men are supposed to be, and some I mean, unfortunately, when we talk about sort of physical dominance, they go completely overboard, you know, with striking and hitting their kids, or you know, hitting their spouses, which obviously has gone way beyond anything. So, but these are some of the misconceptions and you know, going back to why do people believe these things. So this is what attracts people sometimes to these philosophies, because when you don't have a healthy balance, people tend to go to extremes. So, and that's true for men and women.

Speaker 1:

So, if you look at something like feminism, okay, let's take a step back, and I'm certainly not defending or supporting anything about feminism. I'm just saying let's just think about this for a second. Why did that come about? Well, it came about as a result of thinking that women are not being treated fairly. That women are not being treated fairly Okay, so that makes sense. If they're not being treated fairly, then we need to do something so that they are right.

Speaker 1:

But Islamically we have our roles and we sort of have how men and women are supposed to interact with each other, particularly in a marital relationship. So we don't need philosophies to come in and tell us that this needs to be done and that needs to be. We need action and of course, we're going to sometimes fall short of that. But that's why the, the, the foundations of a marriage are forgiveness, mercy, overlooking shortcomings, not demanding rights, but trying to fulfill our rights for the other, Like that's all part of the relationship. So we need action more. We don't need these types of philosophies. But when you start pushing men in a corner and saying just the very idea that you're a man is toxic, then you're going to get reactions and you're going to get people that are attracted to figures and philosophies that are going to the other extreme, which is always unhealthy.

Speaker 3:

Yeah, I want to come back to what you just said before, which is masculinity with the understanding of service, because there's a famous hadith by Aisha where she said about the Prophet وَكَانَ فِي خِدْمَةِ أَهْلِهِ that he was always in service to his family, and I feel like that's a part of the seerah and a part of the Prophet that's always overlooked that he was milking his own goat, he was stitching his own clothes and he was always in service to his family, despite how busy and despite how big of a responsibility that was. So if you could expand upon that a bit more and how that shapes our understanding of masculinity, yeah, so this is an example of deviating from.

Speaker 1:

Yeah, so this is an example of deviating from the real masculinity, which is prophetic masculinity, and cultural norms overpowering it. Now, islam has nothing against culture. It doesn't. Islam didn't come to destroy culture. If we were in the time of the Prophet and we looked at Abu Bakr and we looked at Abu Jahl, they dressed kind of the same. They ate pretty much the same foods. Their entertainment of going to poetry sessions was kind of the same. Now, of course, the Muslim has some boundaries. Right, there wasn't. They weren't listening to inappropriate poetry. They had some dietary restrictions. Right, they had restrictions of what needs to be covered on the body. But generally speaking, that was the same culture. Islam didn't come to wipe all of that out. So whatever was compatible and fits, great, there's no problem with that. But when something clashes with Islamic principles, then we throw out the culture. And this is an example where we need to throw out the culture when it comes to service of the family, because the Prophet did mend his own shoes and he swept the floors and a lot of times the expectation after marriage is that the man basically doesn't do any of that stuff. The man basically doesn't do any of that stuff, and to the point sometimes where those who do, now their mom is coming and saying why are you doing this? Right, and what kind of wife did you marry that she doesn't do this? And so now you have this whole dynamic where there's tension very unnecessary because somebody is trying to help, right, so they're overlooking. Okay, the man is responsible for the family, the woman is responsible for the household, okay, fine, if they're both working a nine to five. We have to take that into consideration. And quite often now, the mothers who were saying this they were living, it was a different life. Right, I understand. Now, the stuff is expensive. This they were living, it was a different life, I understand. Now, the stuff is expensive, it's hard. So sometimes you don't have a choice. I'm not going to judge anyone for what their personal circumstances are, but we have to keep all of these into account. So what happens is that the culture becomes dominant here, where the man doesn't do anything around the household and it's just left up to the, the woman, to do it all. Uh, and that is not prophetic example.

Speaker 1:

You also made a great point. Uh, nobody can tell me they were busier than the prophet sallallahu alaihi was. Like, give me a break. He was the imam, he was the, the leader of his people, he was the statesman, he was the khatib. Like don't, don't give me this, that you were more busy than the Prophet, right, he was constantly in service to his community and doing dawah right, and living all while living a humble life by choice.

Speaker 1:

So I remember one time there was one of the scholars. He was talking about how the Prophet used to serve his family in his home and you know, he said something like you know how many of you like sweep the floor or work in the house, and some people raise their hand like you don't do that because you're the man, right, it's like, yeah, I'm the man. And he said, are you a bigger man than the Prophet? So it got kind of awkward. I mean, he called them out, but he made his point, right, he made his point. So these are cultural things and this only is overcome with education. It's overcome with education and practice. So you're not less of a man if you're helping around the household.

Speaker 2:

You heard that, guys. What about now? Toxic masculinity Like we hear this term everywhere, Like, on one hand, we see a lot of accounts, for example, and services for men to embrace their manhood and go back to their manhood, and, on the other hand, toxic masculinity. Why is it suddenly everywhere and what is it?

Speaker 1:

Yeah. So again, this goes back to sort of going to an extreme. So maybe you started with? So maybe you started with this idea that women were not being treated fairly and so we need to implement things to do that. And now we just take it to a whole level where it's like normal and fashionable to like male bash, right? So this is again. This is a term like who made up this term? Right, these terms just kind of come in and they poison our communities and, I would argue, poison society. How about we reframe it and say, uh, instead of toxic max masculinity, let's say it's a deviation from prophetic masculinity, okay. So again, our prophet is the standard. So, being strong yet gentle, okay, being compassionate yet humble.

Speaker 1:

One time, a group of like leaders, they walked into the gathering where the Prophet was with his companions and they said where is the Prophet? And we can basically stop right there the fact that they couldn't even recognize who the leader was because he was just sitting with his people. Now, is there any world leader today that you could? You would instantly know you would never even get that close, right? So, uh, that is a level of humbleness and connection, actual connection with, with the people, and you know there natural masculine qualities and that's great.

Speaker 1:

So strength, leadership, healthy assertiveness, these are masculine qualities and these are very good and there's no reason to shy away from them or pretend they don't exist. But when they get twisted into arrogance or they get twisted into emotional repression or control at all costs, that's when we have a problem. So maybe the people that use this term toxic masculinity are referring to that, but I don't give them that much credit because I don't think they think that deeply about these things. I think they truly are coming from a place of like everything is just bad about maleness in general. But really what it is is it's taking these qualities, these very positive qualities, and they are just sort of again going to those extremes and getting twisted out of what they should be. So it's not masculinity itself that's toxic. Toxic. It's when men are using those traits to harm, to not serve and to go around the responsibilities that they're supposed to be serving. That's when the problem comes in.

Speaker 2:

I feel like we have all the answers in Ardene. But for some reason, because we've put our culture whether it's our back home culture or it's the Western culture, we put it like above our deen, then we start importing these problems that if we, just like you said, follow the deen, we don't have these problems to begin with.

Speaker 1:

Well, 100 percent, I mean, and there's there's no question about it, these and this is why people are attracted to us, why people are attracted to islam. Still, despite all of the smear, despite all of the campaigns, despite whatever is happening, there's still an attraction and an appeal to islam, because it's like this is appealing to a very natural way. Yes, it's ridiculous to say that men and women are supposed to be exactly the same and the only difference is is physiologically. That that's like the dumbest thing you could ever think of. Right, if we're hanging out at my house and it's midnight and I mean my kids are much younger, but if my son is 18 and my daughter is 17 and the family is like, hey, we feel like getting some ice cream, but everything's closed, can somebody run to the store and go get it? My son is going to go get it. I'm not sending my daughter to go get it. And everybody, even if they have no belief in anything from a natural fitrah standpoint, understands yes, of course the son is supposed to go. So to like pretend that that's not the right thing or somehow I'm devaluing my daughter because I'm sending my son is just foolishness. But that is getting all of that cultural nonsense mixed in.

Speaker 1:

You know, I get a kick out of this because one time one of the elders in the community and he's from one of those in the community I was in, you know who kind of founded the masjid and really a pioneer of the community, and he was saying something you know like to me and he's like you know, when we came we had a lot of baggage. You guys don't have a lot of baggage and I'm thinking to myself oh, we got plenty of that. We have so much baggage, right, we just didn't. Our flight was shorter, we didn't pack it and come across we have plenty of baggage. And from those are things like this toxic masculinity and, you know, making men and women enemies of each other and all these kinds of things. This is, this is our baggage. So don't, don't tell me nobody has baggage just because they didn't immigrate from another country. We all have plenty of baggage.

Speaker 2:

Subhanallah. That's funny. You said that's what attracts people to Islam. Now, I don't know if you feel comfortable asking this question, but someone like Andrew Tate. He said what attracted him to Islam in the beginning was masculinity, the clear difference between men and women, and masculinity and femininity, and all of that. And then he comes and just starts spreading some extreme ideas. How do you think this happened, going from this to that?

Speaker 1:

So I think I'll sort of speak generally rather than about a specific individual. So we have to remember, when someone is in the public eye, even after Islam, there's going to be all kinds of things that are sort of still there, right. The other thing that I don't like in general is when people convert to Islam, especially when they have a some sort of public profile, we kind of put them to the front of, in front of everybody and I think that's like our own, that's our own issues we we need to work through, but we sort of force them in front of everybody to like become a spokesman. And they are going through a process, just like everybody else is going through a process.

Speaker 3:

yeah, and we wipe away their previous life pretty much.

Speaker 1:

Right and there's a lot that they have to deal with and it's unfair to make them have to deal with it in front of millions of people. So people have said things in the past. People still have certain ideas they're trying to work through. They don't understand, right. That's a greater problem that I have. So obviously now they come and they say something ridiculous which is against Islamic teaching, then it affects everybody. So that's a greater problem. I think, when we're giving these huge platforms to people and we should just give them time, you know, time to grow and that's the importance of having mentors to kind of advise them. Like, hey, you know, you've said some of these things, you're doing some of these things. Let's sort of work through this rather than just here, go in front of everybody.

Speaker 1:

And now you have, you know, young men who feel alienated and pushed aside because, as they're going through school, they're just told that they're the problem and they have to just bend backwards. You're telling a three-year-old boy sit still for an hour and a half in class. Who's telling him? Some middle-aged white lady teacher is the one who's telling him. What are you talking about? A three-year-old is not going to sit still. I've tried this. They don't sit still. You shouldn't sit still. Yeah, exactly when you look at the studies. Like boys they like to play with, like wheeled things, like of course they do. Dads are supposed to wrestle with their boys, right, and show affection to the daughters Not in the same way, of course. But then we have the problem of, like, no affection to the daughters and only with the boys. That's episode number two. No affection to the daughters and only with the boy, that's episode number two. But yeah, so pushing them in front just makes it complicated for everybody. And so some of these ideas that they hold or that they're spreading they haven't learned themselves or they're old sort of clips coming back and there's just so much out there that this is something we really need to think about.

Speaker 1:

So I, just at a simple level, I don't like public Shahadas in the masjid. When somebody converts, I will ask them do you want to do this in front of everybody? You don't have to, and it's up to them. So I've had sometimes. I said no, I don't want to do it in front of others. I said, great, I'm just giving you the choice. I hate when people are recording. You have no idea. Their family members are watching those recordings right their family members who hate Islam, and now they're going to find them online saying the Shahada right. I just don't like that. These are deeper things to think about in our communities. Wallahuala yeah for sure.

Speaker 2:

Interesting. I know, Zaid, you have lots of questions, so I'll give you some space.

Speaker 3:

You touched upon leadership, and of course, leadership is a quality that girls are always looking for.

Speaker 1:

How can women recognize a man's leadership potential in a way that aligns with Islamic principles. Okay, so the first thing you said was that they're looking for leadership. So admit that you're looking for leadership. Don't act like you're not looking for leadership. So admit that you're looking for leadership, don't act like you're not looking for leadership. That's very, very important Because I agree, I think they do want leadership to a certain level, but you're not really going to know that without understanding the roles of men and women in Islam and in the marital relationship. So that's very important to start with. And then it goes back to what does that leadership look like? So, again, leadership is not do this, and I don't want to hear anything from you. That's not what Umm Salama did with the Prophet in the Treaty of Hadeibiyyah, right when he sought her counsel. And again, that goes back to who our role model is and who is the person that we look to through all the noise and the nonsense. So, first of all, understand and recognize that you do want that leadership.

Speaker 1:

To begin with, because you do right, because when it's 12 o'clock at night and the trash needs to get thrown out, you're not throwing it out. Your husband is going to throw it out. Okay, and don't act like you're going to go and throw it out. And that is not faulting or thinking anything less of anybody. That's how it should be. If there's a noise outside at two in the morning, you're not supposed to go outside. Could you imagine if you're lying in bed and there's a noise at two in the morning and you turn to your wife and you're like did you hear that? Yeah, would you mind going and checking that out? All right. And then she's like are you crazy? No, I'm not Okay. And then you call your kids hey, son, would you mind going and checking out what's happening outside? Does anybody want to be married to somebody like that? That is no right. So let's not act like we do.

Speaker 3:

Although, to be honest, I do have a no bug policy. So if there's a spider or something, I tell her, but you deal with the bugs, because I don't like bugs tell him about you deal with the bugs, because I don't like bugs.

Speaker 1:

Yeah, well, you know. Well, that's good, that's understanding. We all have our. We sort of all have our quirks. But going back to your question of how do women recognize that leadership potential? Right, I think that was the question.

Speaker 1:

So when we look at service, so first let's we look spiritually Again, that's sort of the foundation. So does he do his basic responsibilities himself? It's great, you want to teach your kids to pray. If you don't pray, what are you teaching them, right? It's great you want your wife to not look 100 yards outside when she's outside because she might see a man. Yet your eyes are completely, just all over the place, right? So are you doing what you say? It doesn't mean that we're perfect, it doesn't mean that sometimes you missed Fajr, but acknowledge that and make it up, right, that's different than just you do this and I'm going to do I'm not going to always do this.

Speaker 1:

So, spiritually, are they leading themselves first and is there sort of a consistency in the connection with Allah, subhanahu wa ta'ala? And again, we start with the basics, like the prayers. That's where it starts, because if you can't really lead yourself in prayer, you're not going to be able to lead anybody else. So look, spiritually, if there's no connection with the Quran whatsoever, this is deeply problematic. You can't be saying that this is a book of guidance and then you never go to it for guidance, like, what's the point? I get so many young Muslims that will come and they'll go. I'm having doubts about my faith. I'm having, I'm not sure about this, I'm not sure about that.

Speaker 1:

It's like, have you one time in your life read the Quran from beginning to end? One time? Or did you just read some passages because you saw a YouTube video and they said that these don't make any sense? One time have you read the Quran? One time have you read the seerah? Completely? Like, don't come here and make all these arguments, forget about, uh, islamically, just rationally, how can you say you're so against something? You don't even know what you, what the subject is, you're just sort of taking sound bites. You wouldn't do that in any other subject. So where are they?

Speaker 1:

Spiritually is very important. And then, of course, character looking at people, looking at how they treat others, particularly the female members of the family, sisters, daughters, you know so, on their mother, how are they, what does that look like. And then how do they treat people that are quote unquote, lower Like and not in terms of not in the eyes of Allah, because we don't know, but just like a janitor or like somebody working at the restaurant. You know, that's just kind of. Just kind of they're like. How do they treat them? Because? Do they smile at them? Do the kids see them saying thank you when somebody does a seemingly small service that has a major, major impact? So what does that character look like? And then emotionally as well, right. So are they listening to understand, or are they listening just to respond?

Speaker 2:

So there's a difference between those two things. Can one admit when they're wrong and can they apologize sincerely, or is it just kind of a show? Right Doesn't mean you have to have all the answers in leadership, but there's a humility to seek the answers and to consult others when we don't have them. So these are some of the things that can be done to sort of inshallah, recognize the potential for that leadership. Okay, what would you say to a woman who wants that positive side of leadership in terms of he's going to take these responsibilities upon himself, he's going to be the spender, but then she doesn't want to take the the other side of leadership like a little more. But some don't want to accept that. What would you say to a woman like this?

Speaker 1:

well, I would wonder if they have a basic understanding of the rights and roles of men and women in marriage. So I do think that most women do want a man who is in that leadership position. I think that's a very natural thing, I think that's a normal thing, I think that's a healthy thing and, you know, if they don't know what Islam is seeking or asking of them or their husband, then they're going to have, they're going to think like this Right, they're going to look at everything as like a clash. So one of the one of the things we see sometimes in marital counseling which is absolutely horrifying is you have people who have been counseling marriage counseling for 15, 20 years and they have no clue about Islamic rights and responsibilities of marriage for men and women. So they're just kind of using whatever philosophies and everything they use and they're just kind of shooting from the hip right oh, you don't need a man, you need to do this, you need to do that. You're just setting them up for a life of misery and conflict.

Speaker 1:

So I would, I think there's a responsibility on the woman to look at what are those roles and then letting them letting them you know, giving them the chance to fulfill those roles rather than trying to take them or think that there's conflict. It's a very complimentary relationship, walhamdulillah. It's not men versus, it's not the battle of the sexes, it's a very complementary relationship, alhamdulillah. It's not the battle of the sexes, it's very complementary. Men can do things women cannot and women can do things that men cannot, and those are sort of the gaps and the things that are fulfilled that come through there, and when that relationship is in harmony, then that's going to have the best results for raising the family relationship is in harmony, then that's going to have the best results for raising the family.

Speaker 2:

Even saying that men can do things women can't, and vice versa, it's so controversial, even though it sounds common sense. But some people make it sound controversial.

Speaker 1:

Yeah, again, a lot of these things. We just make them controversy, but that that's a fact. Now there can be exceptions, of course, right, so, generally speaking, at the gym I'm going to lift heavier weight than 99% of women that are in there. However, there's going to be a few that are athletes or whatever, that are going to be able to do things better than me, but that doesn't mean that that becomes the norm now, because that's not the norm, right, even like in strength.

Speaker 1:

I remember my uncle was telling me one time he's like you know, like I try to hold the, you know, the kid or something like my arm starts tiring out and I'm like I just did like all these bicep curls, and. And then he's like I watched my wife at night like she just sitting and sleeping with her neck crooked the whole night and she's like you know, like how is this possible? Right, you know you hold the baby and you just keep fidgeting and turning because you don't, and and you know you have the wife is just holding and like doing stuff with one hand and moving things, and so, like there's certain things that we, we both do. But again, if, if this is going to be a controversial statement to say, for example, that, uh, women are generally more emotionally in tune than men and men generally have more muscle mass than like what we're lost as a society. If we can, we can't make these statements.

Speaker 1:

But again, notice there's no value judgment in those. It's not saying that because one can do this, the other somehow is less or inferior. But let's recognize the strengths so that people play to their strengths, rather than trying to say, no, you don't really have that strength, or pretending you don't. And then we end up with all these sorts of ridiculous rules and things in society which don't make any sense.

Speaker 3:

You touched upon the qualities of leadership, but and we often tell men that you need to become the man that that a woman would desire, right, and so when we talk about leadership and becoming ready for marriage, what does that journey look like? Desire, right. And so when we talk about leadership and becoming ready for marriage, what does that journey look like in practical terms?

Speaker 1:

Yeah. So first, I would say this goes both ways, right. It's not just about becoming a man and ready for marriage, it also comes from the other side, right? So I want to be fair and point that out. I don't know if anyone said this, but I'm going to coin this term princess syndrome. Okay, nobody, no man, wants to marry a princess.

Speaker 1:

A princess was raised in her house, doesn't know how to function. She's supposed to be a leader of the house. She doesn't know anything about the household, right? She doesn't know how to deal with conflict because everything was taken care of her. She thinks that whatever she wants she gets. And now this is all coming into a marriage.

Speaker 1:

So we cannot ignore this side. I know fathers are well-meaning when they do that, and mothers as well, but nobody wants to marry a princess. So that is one side of the equation. Equation. Now, as for the other side of the equation, what does it mean to become a man? Uh, it doesn't mean perfection. It doesn't mean perfection, but certainly it means doing some inner and outer work. The core of that always is spiritually, right. So, um, if, if one is deficient in basics, you got to get the basics down before you're getting married, right If you're not consistently praying five times a day, if you don't consistently go to Jum'ah, if you don't know how to give zakat. These are basics. These are not superhero Muslim type of things. So you have to get the basics down. And if you have them down, then now you start sort of moving beyond that to building a really deeper spiritual connection. I have some clients when we set spiritual goals they're like my goal is just to start praying, literally start. Others are like I pray, but I can't get off of Fajr, that's my goal. Others are like I want to, I can't get off of fajr, that's my goal. Others are like I want to pray the hajj every week. So everybody is at their level. But we always need to be at the baseline, or the basics, and then we start strengthening that connection and we move so the ibadah, think of it as an opportunity. It's not a chore, it's opportunities to get closer to Allah subhanahu wa ta'ala, and this changes the dynamic. So that's always the baseline, is spiritually.

Speaker 1:

Then there is a emotional sort of training, I guess, if you want to call it that, and that is working on our ego. This is like internal purification. One of the goals that the Prophet came with was to get them to purify themselves, right. So doing this internal work, because if you don't have internal work, your life's going to be very, very empty. And we all need to do that, men and women. Sometimes it's just a little bit different With men. It can be an ego thing, perhaps because of the status and the career and all that kind of stuff that comes in, but that is sort of a it's an active process.

Speaker 1:

So understanding the emotional triggers that one has, learning to communicate without blaming others, taking responsibility. Now, this might mean, for some it might mean therapy. For some it might mean getting a mentor, being around better company, which is always recommended regardless of who we are. For some it might mean reading books, you know, like books on emotional intelligence, for example. These are all things for sort of that emotional type of training.

Speaker 1:

And then, of course, I mean we're talking practically, financially. Now, financially doesn't mean that you're planning how to get rich, but you have to be responsible, right, you have to be responsible. Yes, when you're single you can spend money on things, but you have to be more responsible. When you have a family, you can't go out, and maybe you probably shouldn't be doing it anyway, but maybe you ate out three giving it in sadaqah, for example. So there has to be a level of responsibility. That could mean, you know, budgeting, living within our means, and the desire which is normal to sort of progress in our career is great, but it should always be linked to having halal income to provide for others.

Speaker 1:

So I've been asked by many, many brothers. They get a wonderful job. They say I'm not really comfortable with this company. I don't. I saw, like who's on the board and who I'm working with and the kind of values they have. I don't feel right about it. Or, you know, this is working in a certain industry that I it's a great, great offer. Now everyone else is telling them they're crazy for turning it down. But I'll tell you, every single time they have, allah gives them something better in a very short period of time. Right, I've seen this over and over again. So that financial training and responsibility is important. So those spiritually, emotionally and financially, those are all steps to sort of take so that they sort of are working on the path to becoming that man. Yeah, SubhanAllah.

Speaker 2:

the last thing you mentioned about working in certain industries, like it couldn't be more relevant than it is now, when a lot of the industries and brands are supporting the genocide in Gaza and you're left with a choice oh, what if I leave my job? Will I find another job? Will I? How will Allah provide? And all of that. But like, like you said, like if you leave something for Allah, Allah will replace it with something better, SubhanAllah.

Speaker 1:

Right, and and just on that point, because I'm sure a lot of I know a lot of people are grappling with this, remember, practically speaking. You know, this is why we have fiqh, which is not just understanding, it's a deep understanding. So if you're in an industry that you really don't want to be in, or anymore Islam is not telling you okay, stop tomorrow, so that you can't pay your rent, you have to pull your kids out of school because you can't pay their tuition, you can't feed your family. You're supposed to then aggressively look for halal income while you are still connected to that. Now, if you can just leave it, great, but most people probably can't do that. So we don't want to make people have this double guilt of already they don't want to be there and now we're telling them just quit your job. So now, on top of the guilt of that, now you have to worry about how am I going to provide for my family and how's that going to impact your marriage and your kids. That's just going to be an added strain.

Speaker 1:

So don't make rash decisions. Right, think about where you're at. Some people can make great impact behind the scenes. It doesn't mean that they're sellout so that they don't care, but that's the best thing for them to do, right? Others have a public profile and they say things a certain way, or maybe they say it another way, right? So let this whole like fantasy of like everybody just leave everything and just start saying whatever you want again. This is not. This is not practical.

Speaker 1:

So yeah, just want to put that out there because it's important to say that said the door right, absolutely, yeah, yeah, um.

Speaker 2:

I want to go back to the topic of masculinity and, um, we hear a lot the term of strong, independent woman. Now, how can a woman encourage her husband or the person she's speaking to for the purpose of marriage, how can she encourage them to?

Speaker 1:

embrace their masculinity, but without compromising her own value, her own independence. Yeah, so again this term strong, independent, independent woman what does that mean? I think most of us would want to relationship Right. So just going back to what do we mean by that? Most of the time when I hear that term, it pretty much brings out the worst of sort of feminist ideology. And you know, putting men down and men are this and men are trash and all that that's what, I think, realistically, most people hear.

Speaker 1:

So we definitely want to define what we mean by that. But how do we help men like, how can women support healthy masculinity? Everybody loves appreciation, whether they admit it or not. A very simple, you know, show of gratitude to your husband or your wife can really go a long way. And you know, I firmly believe, like a good long-term marriage, it's about the small sort of things, the day-to-day thing. It's not about like a big lavish vacation once a year. It's really about sort of the day-to-day things. It's not about like a big lavish vacation once a year. It's really about sort of the day-to-day stuff. And so showing appreciation is really important in that you don't have to like shrink yourself as a woman like, oh, you know, I'm meek and I'm just nothing. Nobody is saying you have to do that. But showing, oh, you know I'm meek and I'm just nothing, nobody is saying you have to do that. But showing appreciation, you know, can really go a long way because a man who's sort of comfortable in his own skin, they won't be threatened by their wife, right, it's going to be a mutual partnership. So supporting him by recognizing his effort, that doesn't mean you have to carry his responsibilities Right. So there's there's. There's definitely a difference. You're not. Your role is a life partner. It's not a PM. You're not the project manager in his life. But again, think of it more as like a healthy way to help each other grow. That's really what we're trying to do. Right, there are different stages of marriage and that's what we're doing. So creating a space where he can be heard. That's really important.

Speaker 1:

That can help when men generally are not good with vulnerability or showing some sort of emotion. So in the times that they do, or want to then receive it with some compassion and think about the circumstances that are happening. So if your husband, for example, if your husband, for example, lost his father, there's no way that that doesn't affect him. The closer the relationship was, the more it will affect him. But even when the relationship isn't that close, there's still something that happens when you lose your father, so much is going through your mind. The one who didn't have a great relationship starts to wonder what if I did? And now they're like well, I didn't have a great relationship starts to wonder what if I did Right, and now they're like well, I didn't have that great a relationship, so I want to have a better relationship with my kids and then they also have this. Well, you know, I'm supposed to respect my parents. Did I do that Even though it wasn't there's? So it's so much that goes on. It's like almost it's very, very overwhelming to deal with that.

Speaker 1:

So if he's just acting like everything is normal after some major thing a change on the he changed teams at work and he just seems different, now right, or a job loss or something like that, like, take some initiative, because there's no way that everything is just okay. There needs to be a sounding board, there needs to be somebody that absorbs some of the tension that he's doing. So take a little bit of initiative and be supportive. You know, in those roles we talked about, you know verbally appreciating, right, so men like to hear verbally. Again, it's just, and everybody likes to feel appreciated. Why did the prophet sallallahu alaihi tell us to whoever you know doesn't thank the people, hasn't thanked allah, subhanahu wa ta'ala, like they're still doing it, but we still, you know, make dua for them and we still thank them, um, so that's really important as well.

Speaker 2:

Inshallah beautiful, so we know the other part of your job is being a personal trainer. I want to ask what got you in that field to begin with? Is it something that you thought would help you in your counseling and your leadership?

Speaker 1:

yeah. So I've always sort of been into sports since I was younger, uh, and alhamdulillah, I played colleg tennis, so it was at a pretty good level. I even took some time off to try to make it beyond. I mean, it was, I was never close, I had no chance, but I did take time off to try to see if I could, you know, play some level of professional yeah. So that was always important to me and I was always trying like different fitness programs and things over the years.

Speaker 1:

But as I started working more in the community, first as an imam and then as a therapist, you sort of cases I get are not preventative. It's like my daughter's 17. I need you to fix her. It's like, well, what happened the first 17 years? It would have been a whole lot easier if we had started earlier.

Speaker 1:

So, as I start to see this, to see this in particularly in in men, you know it, you have your your, there's your mind, there's your body and then there's ultimately the soul. Right, if you have a major gap in two of these areas, it's going to be hard to become the best version of yourself. Okay, you can look fantastic physically, but if it's all done for vanity and to show off your abs on Instagram, then you've achieved nothing. But if you're trying to stay healthy, to be there for your kids, to not be a burden on them, to be able to make sigda when you're 65, 70, 75 years old, to walk to the mosque independently when you're 80 years old, that's a completely different mentality. And similarly, if you're just focusing on worship, that's great. But if you eat terribly, you don't move your body and you're depressed because you hate your job and you're disconnected from your family, that's going to directly impact your worship that you're doing.

Speaker 1:

So, seeing that over the years, you know, I've just sort of seen that and it doesn't mean you have to be like perfect in everything or that some areas aren't better than others, but to just sort of live like in one dimension. I don't think that's a positive way to think about growth. So that kind of led to my approach. So I had all these these years of experience myself athletically and then I just sort of formalized it and and now I've incorporated it into the things that I do and do you feel it helps like?

Speaker 2:

do you work mainly with young men?

Speaker 1:

so most of the the the population I work with is is men. It doesn't mean I don't I do work with couples, obviously, so that's going to be both. I do have some female clients, but generally I work with men, you know, 16, 17, all the way up to 30s, 40s, sometimes even a bit older, but I kind of men in general, that's. That's sort of the I would say kind of anywhere from teen to like middle aged ish, which is a pretty wide range. But that's kind of who, that's kind of how it's become.

Speaker 2:

You mean in terms of fitness right or in terms of counseling? Just in general in general, in general, yeah, yeah, because I was going to ask do you notice, like the um, the people, the clients who focus more on the fitness aspect and they're having a healthy body, do you notice it affects other aspects of their life?

Speaker 1:

yes, certainly, and so I. So therapy, you know, if someone needs like serious professional therapy, that's kind of one thing. But then I have another program where I going to have an effect on them. So, yes, you definitely see a connection and you see, when people start to get healthier, they just feel better. When people start to reframe negative thoughts into more positive thoughts, they start to get healthier. When people start to give more dedicated time to their wife after they've been married for 15 years, because they just everything was about the kids, kids, the kids, and now they're giving more dedicated time, yes, that that, all of that has an impact it's kind of lots.

Speaker 3:

One system, I guess one connected system so if you could just leave every man and woman with one piece of advice about healthy masculinity, partnership and balance, what would it be? Just one.

Speaker 2:

More than one. Whatever you think would be beneficial.

Speaker 1:

I think we've covered a lot of what we said, so I would say a few things. Number one remember that, at the end of the day, what is our purpose on this earth? Our purpose is to worship Allah subhanahu wa ta'ala. That is our ultimate purpose and that is always the baseline. And while we may have unique differences and different strengths as men and women, allah is not going to put you in Jannah just because you were a man or just because you were a woman. And whatever roles he gave us to fulfill, if you fulfill those, then Allah Subh'anaHu Wa Ta-A'la inshallah will give you the ultimate reward, right? So Allah knows, for example, that I cannot give birth and women you know they don't like do the Jummah or something. Those are not expectations, those are not roles that we were given. Whatever we were given, if we fulfill those, then Allah Subh'anaHu Wa Ta-A'la inshallah will give us that ultimate reward that we want. So let's not forget that we are first and foremost here to serve Allah Subh'anaHu Wa Ta-A'la, not anybody else. Now, an extension of that is we have these relationships which are commanded to us by Allah Subh'anaHu Wa Ta-A'la, with certain obligations to fulfill, and if we do that, then we are worshipping Allah, subh'anahu Wa Ta-A'la. So the role of our parents, the role in raising our children, the role of husband and wife, the role in the community, and so on and so forth. So all those relationships are important, but they're ultimately connected to Allah, subhanahu wa ta'ala. So that is always the baseline Now for men.

Speaker 1:

Don't outsource your growth. So don't think you're just going to get married. To quote, unquote fix you. There needs to be something solid that you can build upon. And I'll see this sometimes when a woman will come for premarital counseling and I'm looking at this particular person. Now, if there are gaping holes, if there are gaping holes in religiosity, then that's a red flag, right. It's like, yeah, he doesn't really pray, but he said he will. He's going to start. Yeah, he smokes marijuana, but he said he's going to stop. You need to work on yourself before going into a marriage, so don't wait for others to do that for you.

Speaker 1:

Build yourself now with sincerity for Allah, subh'anahu Wa Ta-A'la, always striving to be a follower of the Prophet SallAllahu Alaihi Wasallam. And as someone who loves fitness, I would say that you still need to train your soul more than your body, and they're all gonna help you achieve that. They're all connected, right, but there has to be a premium put on that relationship with Allah subhanahu wa ta'ala. But if that's always the target, you're going to do the other things anyway, because your mentality is going to be completely different. No-transcript, let's not get twisted. What strength is? So those are some things I would say to the men, to the women when you're seeking someone, seek someone, of course, whose heart is attached to Allah subhanahu wa ta'ala, because a man of taqwa is going to treat you in a way that is pleasing to Allah subhanahu wa ta'ala, rather than just sort of treating you how he wants or how somebody tells you that he's supposed to treat you. So if there are injustices in the family, he will stand up for the injustice, regardless of who's in the wrong right, rather than blindly taking sides. So that's definitely important.

Speaker 1:

And also, you know, in your search, don't forget about becoming the woman you want to be. You want to become someone of higher iman, someone who has good character, someone of self-respect, all of these things Don't forget. You know that you're also on a journey and you're going to bring that into the relationship and you know that will, ins inshallah, lead to growth for both. And when you're looking for. Don't just look at a man's potential. Look at what he's doing right now as well as the potential when you're looking, you know, for that ultimate partnership. And then just for both, remember, like marriage is a what do they say? It's a marathon, not a sprint, right? So it's not the finish line once you get married. It's the start, inshallah, of a journey which is going to carry you to the ultimate abode, which is Jannah. So you need the right teammate, you need someone who's going to lift you up, who's going to help you when things get challenging and there's different stages of the marriage and each one, you know, we try to grow together.

Speaker 1:

So maybe, initially, perhaps it's more physical, which is important. I mean, nobody's saying it's denying it isn't it's more physical which is important. I mean, nobody's saying it's denying it isn't. But over time, if that's all that one is relying on, that's not a very fulfilling life, right? Again, not denying the importance. Of course that's a part, but it is not the only part, which is a lot of times what we're sort of sold. So you know, inshallah, also, keep it interesting and strive to be better. When I hear men say things like, you know, I can't wait till I'm married so I can let myself go. That drives me crazy. You should be working harder, you know, after you're married, rather than just kind of throwing in the towel so, allahu'alam, I'm by no means sitting here saying I got it all figured out. I'm working through this process with everyone. But, inshaallah, these are just some reflections based off my experiences and what I've seen, and may Allah subhanahu wa ta'ala grant us marriages and partners in life that relationships based off taqwa of Allah subhanahu wa ta'ala. I mean?

Speaker 2:

I mean I mean just as a side note, when you mentioned don't outsource to men, don't outsource your growth, it just reminded me of something that sometimes happens in our Middle Eastern culture, where the guy is not like on a straight path, maybe he's a troublemaker, maybe he drinks, whatever, and then the family is like, get him married, this will fix him up. Get him married. Then he gets married, then it gets worse, and then the family have kids, have kids. The kid will come and fix everything and then it just keeps going from bad to worse to worse, to worse to worse. So I hope that people listen to what you said. Don't outsource, like be the man before you find the woman. And yeah, I guess that's what I wanted to say, but before we let you go, dr Omar do you work with clients virtually?

Speaker 1:

I do, yes, I do virtually, as well as in person here in Dallas, where I'm based. Okay, and if someone would like to learn about your services, maybe work with you. How would that be? Yeah, they can find me on Instagram at D-R-O-M-A-R-H-U-S-A-I-N. Dr Omar Hussain, and then you can go from there. Inshallah.

Speaker 2:

Inshallah, we will link that. Thank you so much. This has been a topic on our mind masculinity for a very long time. We just couldn't find the right person to tackle it, and we are so happy and thankful that you dedicated this much time for us and our listeners.

Speaker 1:

Thank, you so much, uh, dr omar. Thank you, our beautiful listeners. Inshallah, inshallah, we'll see you on the next one. All right,