Ode to the Commode - All about the outhouses and pit toilets of Washington

Did you know that Craig spent several summers as a forest service ranger which involved a lot of cleaning toilets? Learn all about the inner workings of the backcountry toilet and how you can make rangers lives better. Jennie and Craig talk about backcountry toilets, pit toilets and outhouses including etiquette and the best and worst pit toilets in Washington State

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Transcript

Unknown: 0:00

Welcome to The Washington State hiking podcast. I'm your host. Jennie Thwing Flaming, and I'm your co host, Craig Romano, Craig and I are happy to have you here. We provide practical and timely, seasonal hiking advice for hikers, trail runners and potential hikers and trail runners of all skill and ability levels that is helpful, accurate, fun and inclusive. Today we're talking about outhouses, the good, the bad, the etiquette around them. How not to be afraid of outhouses. Don't be afraid of outhouses. Forgot the ugly in The Good, the Bad, the Ugly. We'll talk about it all in the ode to the commode. We got a royal flush here for you. Ah, this.

Jennie Flaming: 0:50

I want it to be a pun free space, but I see that's not gonna happen today. It's okay. I'm letting it go. All right, Craig, today we're talking about outhouses, pit toilets, back country toilets, composting toilets. Oh, we're talking about all the types of toilets that you find on Washington's trails and roadways that don't flush.

Craig Romano: 1:15

Okay, yeah, you mentioned composting toilets. And Jennie, I gotta tell you, I have a love affair with composting toilets. This is little they are pretty cool. They're very cool. And let me tell you, we go way back me in composting toilets. Do you now? Because you may not know this, back in 1986 Oh, my God, summer of 1986 I worked for the Forest Service. I was a back country Ranger, and people like, oh, that sounds cool. Well, yes, and no, was it a lot of cleaning back country toilets. It's better than that. The cool part was, I got to be a back country ranger for half my duty. I got to run the ridges. This was back in the White Mountains of New Hampshire. The other part was literally the shit detail. I had to work on composting toilets. And we were, like, one of the first in the areas, this is in the 1980s to get the clivus out of that that makes these, these composting toilets. And the whole idea was twofold. One was, you know, we're using the waste as organic material now. So it was environment, and we would use that organic material to spread back on areas where people had traipsed on the meadows, because the White Mountains one of the few areas in the east that has an Alpine zone. So I believed in it. But let me tell you how difficult it was to compost. And I remember having to take workshops on this, and you had to keep a very, very open mind. But at the end of the summer after that's been baking. And this is the East it's been in the 90s. It's humid, that stuff's baking, yeah. And you pull out the 60 gallon drum of human waste, do you know what that smells like, even with I can imagine. I know what a terrible outhouse smells like, even with the wood chips and everything, yeah. And I remember going up there. This is the only time in my life that I smoked just briefly big cherry. It's like a reason to start big cherry cigars when I was working on the composting. And the cherry cigar were twofold. One was to keep the stench of the effluent away, and the other was to keep the flies away from me, but I can remember stirring the soup up there in a hot August afternoon and watching some backpackers coming in from Boston, these nice, you know, all dressed up like, oh my god, what is that awful smell? And like, welcome to the campsite. Soup is on. We call it the soup. The soup is on, and I'd be sitting there stirring the 60 gallon drum.

Jennie Flaming: 3:44

It was nasty. It's really nasty, awful. How much were you getting paid?

Craig Romano: 3:50

Not much. It was the badge. It was wearing. That badge you were getting paid in Sunset. Oh, I tell you, it was a great job. I loved it. But then we would, we would cook it, we'd put it in the little the little greenhouse type things, cook it, and then it would be, it becomes sterile. It's soil. Yeah, right. And we'd spread that stuff the following year on areas where hikers had had tramped. And also, like, just to clarify here, when we're talking about a composting toilet, most of the pit toilets and outhouses in Washington are not composting toilets. So you're talking about, we do have a few of them. I know one on Cypress Island. Cypress Islands, a great one. Yeah, there's a couple of, matter of fact, there's three composters on Cyprus Island, yep. Yeah. Really good. And that's a great place. I'd like to, I mean, they're very labor intensive. Obviously, you need someone to go out there to do the work and all that. But I'll tell you the great The great thing about him is that once it's so good for the environment, because you're using human waste, and you're making soil out of it. Here's the other thing, because you're talking about the pit toilets, because one of my duties too, on the Appalachian trails, we got to actually dig new holes. Because, as you know, digging up the hole isn't too bad. Do you want to dig a ditch in a place? Say you're hitting bedrock. Let me tell you how difficult that was, no, but it's better than you know, it's empty at that point, right? But we'd have to seal off the old one. Move it, move the outhouse. So I can tell you how we'd celebrate when we dig a new hole. I remember you hit ledge down below, when you draw a bullseye on the ledge down below, and who had the first honor to use the new outhouse. But I would rather use those composters, you know, than digging the new hole. But, but, um, anyways, I have a love for outhouses because I know it go. I know it goes into to build them. And of course, you know, it's one of the best things when you're out there and you got to go and there's, there's an outhouse there, of course, out here in the Northwest, one of the first things, you know, we didn't have these back east,

Jennie Flaming: 5:45

was the box toilets. Yes, you know, they very, very simple. So, yeah, Craig, will you explain the difference between a box toilet and an outhouse? Well, if you're really worried about privacy, stay away from the box toilets, because it's just you. You're out there, your derriere to the air. And usually, you know, there's no warning. You know, someone caught the trailer. Hey, you know, occupied I hear. But what's great about them sometimes is that you can sit out there fresh air, looking out. Nice view. View, what stinks about what stinks about them, besides what's down below. Being in a box toilet on a Northwest rainy day is not a lot of fun. Yeah, okay, let me tell you, gotta make it quick. So, yeah, there's an art, you know. So there's definitely, I'll talk about, you know, some of my favorite ideas, just standard outhouses. But again, going back to the east, if you ever hike the Appalachian Trail, the Dartmouth Outing Club, you know, Dartmouth College, they maintain a large section the at, they take their pride in their outhouses. They have some beautiful ones. Ones actually designed like a car. You sit at the wheel and do all kinds of things. So if you're funny, if you're really into into outhouses, yeah, definitely spend some time on the at, but we have some classic outhouses here in Northwest too. We'll talk about some of those. Yeah, so before we do that, um, let's talk a little bit about outhouse etiquette, before we get to some of our favorite and least favorite outhouses here in Washington. Um, so to start off with, um, when I so? I think many of you know that I still work as a tour guide, but I'm not doing it currently in Washington. I'm doing it in Alaska. But when I was a guide here in Washington and took people on day trips to Mount Rainier and Olympic National Park in some other places, but mainly those places, Mount Rainier National Park, Olympic National Park, for a small Seattle company, that was when I learned that most people are pretty freaked out about using outhouses. And what I mean by that is that was the most typical question I would get. And now, when I work as a guide in Alaska, that's also one of the most common questions, and people often are really uncomfortable using an outhouse or anything that doesn't flush. And what I think is kind of interesting is, you know, I get that so the only two times I've had a real gastrointestinal illness was after using an outhouse in Washington, different outhouses. It's happened to me twice in my 49 years. So I, I don't like not being able to wash my hands, um, and I, I get that, but, um, I'm gonna just recommend carrying baby wipes with you. Don't throw them into the pit toilet. In The Pit toilet, carry them with you, bring a trash bag, put them in there. Matter of fact, we should talk. Don't throw anything in that pit toilet except the effluent and toilet paper. Yes, no king. I mean, it's crazy. No baby wipes, no diapers, no dog ponds, no tampons, no no food, no nothing, if it didn't come out of your body, and that's not toilet paper, it doesn't go in a pit toilet and outhouse a box toilet. Anything you want to explain why so people know that we're not just being sticklers. You know, Craig, I would love to have you explain that, because every time I see a sign, even on a flushing toilet that says, Don't put things in the toilet. I think to myself, people do like I don't know why people think that's a good idea anyway. So for whatever reason, if you're someone who has done that, I'm gonna ask you to please stop. But yeah, Craig, why is it such a big deal since you've cleaned well, first of all, even if we're just burying it, remember, the whole idea is we want that effluent to become soil again. And if you got bottles and cans and things like that, that's, that's literally, that's garbage that that needs to be recycled properly. And it's not going to happen in nature, that can and that bottle, it's going to be there and right? And some of these other things we talked about with chemicals.

Craig Romano: 10:00

Is bad. And then if we're pulling the things out cleaning it's again, I was telling when I had to compost the toilets, I guess I forgot that part. We would have to pick out that stuff, because we're not do that to your beleaguered rangers who are serving you. But sometimes, every now and then, you'd find a gem. We'd find a necklace, oh, flashlight, you know, a wallet. Seriously, people have lost stuff in those outhouses, yeah, but, but, no, those weren't intentionally put in there. I want to think, but, yeah, do not anything. Only effluent in toilet paper. That's it, because, and when you say effluent, we mean poop, right, pee, that's what we need. It's actually even in a compost toilet. You shouldn't even urinate in those two because, again, torn down. So that's one of those cases. Again, you know, especially the guy, it's much easier say it's Go, go find a rock to pee on, for a composting toilet for composting. Yeah, um, okay, so yes, don't put any trash in there, including wet wipes. But I swear by wet wipes as sort of a

Unknown: 11:03

hand sanitizer, not good enough to me. I don't even bother with that. I bring wipes.

Jennie Flaming: 11:11

So the other thing is, don't count on their bean toilet paper or hand sanitizer in any pit toilet. You need to bring your own. I'm a big advocate of the Kula cloth. If you're not familiar with Kula cloth, it's a pee cloth, um, and it is a small woman owned Washington business. So I will put a link to cool a cloth in the show notes. Um, that's what I use. Highly recommend it. But no matter what you do, don't leave your toilet paper. You know, put, you can put toilet paper in the hole in the outhouse, but don't leave it anywhere else, ever. Okay, no, toilet paper flowers. They're very unsightly, yes. So the other thing I'm just gonna say about etiquette, um, relating to outhouses is it's a huge deal to close the lid. So it sucks to touch the lid, but that's no worse than touching the door. So you have to touch the door. So also touch the lid. Bring your wet wipe so you can wash your hands afterwards.

craig: 12:14

And Jennie, I'm hearing what you're saying about but let's be honest here at everything on this, I understand your I will never use a public outhouse in Seattle. You know, public restroom, even with flush water. Those scare the crud out of me. I see, well, the back country ones, I would sit there and eat lunch in one of those before I'm ever forced to use a public restroom in the city. Oh, those scare the living to me, I like to wash my hands after using the bathroom in any way. So that is the biggest deal to me, way more than how clean it is. But we can agree to disagree about that. But the point is, closing the lid makes a huge difference in the smell and the flies inside the outhouse. So deal with it. If you don't want to deal with closing the lid, then use the bushes.

Unknown: 13:01

I feel strongly about that, so that's a big deal. And then the other thing is to make sure you close the door. I don't want critters in there. Yeah, close the door. Oh, yeah. We don't want credit. But that, none of that Did I forget anything about etiquette, to worry about closing the door in the box to us. No, that, that's, that's a good point. And, yeah, just keeping the things clean. I've actually been in some wonderful, wonderful outhouses that are incredibly clean, people think, and their places. Matter of fact, you may want to be make sure there's nobody else out there, because if you're, you know, reading your maps, your hiking guides out there, and someone might be trying to get in there. So to get, you know, do your business and get the heck out of there. But no. And here's the other thing too, while we're talking about houses, this sounds funny, but, you know, I once was invited to do a talk to for a mountaineer hiker for her birthday. She was raising money for back country outhouses. I think that's kind of an odd thing to be raising money for because if you spend a lot of time in the back country, realize especially there's some of these areas that are so heavily used that we really need to have more back country toilets, because these areas are getting so there's places like Tuck and Robin lake. I wouldn't backpack in that area because the water is disgusting. People have literally crapped all over the place up there. So the thing is, getting these back, and people say, Oh, but it's something you have these back. It's their own site. No, I would rather have everybody using one specified back country toilet then, especially in these places that are super, super popular. And the other thing too, and this is something to think about, and we've talked about this, like in the enchantments, it's very expensive to run these things because they've got to be cleaned out, because they're going to fill up over time. And let me tell you, I can tell you some horror stories of outhouses that I've there's definitely creatures from the from the dark lagoon coming out of those things, they need to be cleaned out. And here's one of those cases, too. Have talked about this with trail runners and through hikers and the enchantments, they're using those outhouses. Yeah? And they're not paying for the permits, yeah. And those outhouses are filling up a lot faster when there's, you know, 10 times the amount of day users there, right? So I think that's something we need to look into. And, you know, in our permitting and everything about, you know, paying for this stuff. And I'll tell you, I gladly pay for the convenience of an outhouse than having to go squat and dig and all that stuff, and for the environmental integrity that it's doing. It's keeping it's literally keeping the crap out of the water, yeah? So I think we really need to look at this more. And it's kind of a funny topic and everything, but it's an important topic, yeah, and hopefully what everyone is getting from this is that even a toilet without any kind of running water, it still needs maintenance and it still costs money.

Jennie Flaming: 15:52

I was recently on a hike where there was a Forest Service volunteer. Thank you. You know who you are, who talked to me, Well, she was cleaning, you know, she was like, restocking the toilet paper and cleaning. And I was waiting in line, and she asked her she could go in front of me. And I was like, Oh, yeah. And I chatted with her a little bit, and she said that it cost$45,000 to build a new like, to install a new one, because this particular Trailhead only has one, and we were talking about how it really needs two, because it's very popular and anyway. But then there's also the maintenance of like, they either have to be emptied or they have to be sealed off and a new one built like you were talking about Craig or it's a composting toilet. So, you know, it's not just because it's essentially a glorified hole in the ground. It's still, it's not nothing to maintain them and keep them in good condition and protect the and some of these backcountry ones. Again, people, I think I'm gonna think that a lot of people haven't given much thought this, but you go up like So Holly arm, in some of the big box, they're there. They're not they're not a box in the ground. They're a box on a holding tank. Yeah. How do you think they get those holding tanks out of a place like Sahaja arm, they have to be helicoptered out. Yeah. Do you know what it costs to helicopter? You know, 60 gallons of human crap out of a mountain. I can imagine, because I know what a helicopter costs Exactly. So again, people aren't thinking so, you know, it's quick to complain about permits and things like that, but when you start looking at the costs, yeah, again, you're paying for that convenience. You know how nice it is to have an outhouse at that foot of a glacier, and then environmentally, that you're not contributing. Because I you and you've seen effluent in a glacier, guess what? It doesn't break down. It frozen. That's just like putting in the freezer. It's still going to be there. Yeah, that's not good. And if it melts, you've got pathogens getting into your water source, right? So again, I don't think we're giving this much thought, and I would like to see, matter of fact, I think we need to form a movement. Pun intended, form a movement

Unknown: 18:09

to get more outhouses. Yeah, out there. I agree, you know, because we're definitely lacking in spots, yeah, yeah, for sure. Okay, um, one other thing I'm gonna just mention before we get to the good, the bad and the ugly. I think it's really interesting, like, again, taking people on tour and using outhouses like I totally get not being able to wash your hands. But one of my least favorite semi outhouses, which I'll talk about in a few minutes, is in a spot where you can wash your hands. The toilets just don't flush, and people are still pretty freaked out by it not flushing, which I think is really interesting, because I'm like, okay, so you pee or you poop in a toilet. Who cares? What I mean, it goes down, you don't. I don't understand why it matters whether it goes into a tank and a sewer pipe or a septic tank, or whether it goes into a hole. You know, the great thing about don't flaming, but not flush, I get that. You know, the one of the absolute worst things that can happen when you're in a public toilet and you get the spot that's terrible, no, I'm just, yeah, I need to sanitize my butt. I mean, this is no, that's freaking me out, yeah, yeah, and yes. Anyway, so if you're listening and you're someone who's bothered by that, then please use the Text Message button to explain it to me, because I don't, I don't get it, and I want to under stand, by the way, if you do send us a message there, I want to just make sure you know that we can't respond to that. So if you want us, you know we can talk about what you said, like in. In an episode, but if you want like me to respond, you need to put your email in there, because I can't just text you back. So that's happened a couple times. Or someone was like, what about this? And I'm like, I can't respond to you. So, yeah, okay, um, Craig, what are your favorite outhouses and box toilets in Washington. Yeah, I've got, I've got so many. I mean, I have literally pooped, you know, across the state. I mean, it's just one that one of the nice perks to the job of the job, but I should. So here's the thing, I have some my favorite outhouses, and there's ones that are that you can use, and there's ones that are purely ornamental. And what do you mean by ornamental? Well, they're outhouses. What do you mean by ornamental? Yeah, well, they're outhouses that were built to serve in the past, but they're no longer functionable, but you still to visit them. It's, it's kind of, you know, a place that you want to go. So it's more of a place where you can, Sorry, bad pun coming, I'm gonna cover my ears. Okay, go ahead, where you can't just shit and think, but sit and think when out there, because some of my favorites are no longer in use in one of them is pyramid mountain. So pyramid mountains an 8242 foot summit in the Antioch area, and it rises right above Lake Chelan, 7000 feet below is the lake. You're looking right out, and you can see the lady the lake, and you can sit on this thing that the fire lookout used to be able to go out there, do his business, do her business, and wave to the people way below. But now it's no longer in use. It's kind of falling apart. The box is still there. I'd like to see it preserved as a National Historic Landmark, and you can just sit out there. It's great. You can sit there so it's Sun baked, it's pretty sanitized and enjoy and just a couple of the one of my all time favorites is the HIDDEN LAKES lookout one. It's the same thing. It is absolutely spectacular. This beautiful lookout in this box to it, and you're probably not going to want to use this one anyways. This one anyways, because HIDDEN LAKES is a pretty popular place, and it's a box toilet that's right below the summit. So if you were actually using it, you're going to have quite a show there. So, but it's no longer, you know, in use. So it's an ornamental, it's an ornamental, it's a historic but the like a lawn ornament. It's, you know, it's just it doesn't have utility anymore. It's just it's served its purpose. It's more. It's just it's historically a market, the monument that week, we can just honor honor and not contribute to probably the absolute best one in the state of Washington, absolutely one of the best ones that I've encountered across all the states, from coast to coast, is on Mount David. And on Mount David is a very special outhouse that I have dubbed the throne of stone. And it looks like it was built by the ancient, sorry, ancient mound builders. It was. It is just an amazing if you've been on top of octave, it's a grueling hike. It's 7400 feet. It's 5700 feet of vertical. It's 16 miles round trip. There's no water. It is an incredible hike. And below it, it's very, very easy to miss this. And I have pictures of it incidentally in my books. And you know, it's one of my my day hiking, central cascade, Second Edition. Get all the information you want on finding that outhouse because it's absolutely spectacular. This um, this outhouse was built in with rock with a rock ceiling to fit in with the summit. You cannot see it from above. You can easily miss it, but once you find it. It is incredible because it's this right. Looks like it was built by the Druids, the ancient Druids. And what's hard to pick, to depict in my photos and describing is that if you were to walk just missed, come out of that thing and just walk to the right, it's a 2000 foot drop to the bottom. You said of the thing you're looking out at some of the most spectacular country in the glacier peak wilderness. And I'd say, if I was that fire lookout on a Friday, stormy night and I had to use the can in the middle, there's no way. That's what pea cups are for. There's no way to be painted. It might be, you know, you know the the last dump of your life as you go off the side, but it's amazing. You've got to see this thing so it's no longer in use, but it's an incredible I can't even imagine building that thing if the CCC did it at the PPP. I'm not quite sure who built it, but it's an amazing it's an amazing rock, but there are definitely ones that among my favorite that are in use. So you could actually sit there, do your business, and stare out. And those tend to be in some of the national parks. I was talking about. Sahale arm is a great one at the base of the glacier. You're just looking out at just this jagged ridge of mountains. It's an amazing one. There's one on the back side of sourdough mountain that's on Mount Pierce at the campsite you sit there. And you can wave to the cars below and highway 20 and look up the thunder of thunder Creek Valley that that is certainly one of my favorites in the area. And then, if someone's on the coast, like a toliac point, some of the box toilets there in those spooky woods that we had talked about before. But looking at the surf and you can hear it's great too, because if you're ever, you know, in a busy area, you know, and you're worried about making too much noise in the outhouse, and you run the fan, and we know who you are. You're not fooling anybody. You have the coast there to muffle your your your stomach music. Yeah, they're great ones. Those are some of my favorites. Also, I should also note, this is a great one, too, one of my classics. So in the in stehegan, in the bunk horn orchard, and these were actually quite common back in the day, people don't realize there is a wonderful outhouse. You can still use. It's, it's a communal outhouse. There's a two seater, oh yes, the American Ridge, like group. There's like a lodge, but it's like, it's just a building. It's not that you can rent from Washington State Parks by American ridge or American lake over there, kind of west of Natchez and Yakima. And it has a group out house, group out, I think it has like, six seaters. That's amazing. And did back, can you imagine us sitting down? I mean, this is the area, you know, use a public restroom. Now, you strike up a conversation. Person next to you, they're gonna think you're a pervert or freak or whatever. It's like, no, no, no, I'm not. Pretend. I'm not here. You imagine just sitting down, your most intimate, you know, your pants down. Hey buddy, what do you think about the banners? You know, but get into a political conversation even better, right? It might make things flow better, though you never right? It's good point. But this goes back. Have you ever been to Rome? Have you been to Rome? I have so I know I was in eighth grade. Oh, we might remember this. I certainly would remember this as a 13 year old. Is that the bath houses the public were just rows, oh, yeah, of open toilets, yes, that you would sit there and you would carry on the business, and you would sit there and talk. And maybe that's why my politics stink, because a lot of business was was done on these communal toilets. So we've become a little bit more, you know, squeamish, yeah, and we respect our privacy. But there's a couple of these two cedars. Thankfully that these two cedars I've encountered, none of them are double deckers. At least they designed them better, yes, but they're always fun. They're always fun to they're great. So if you know a few more out in the state, they are relics from the past. Yeah, you know mount Spokane has some relic, oh, in the mount Spokane State Park, in that same vein of the ones you were mentioning, beautiful structures there, yeah, the CCC built a lot of beautiful structures there. And the CCC built some beautiful, beautiful bathrooms in our houses. Matter of fact, some of the, some of the, the more modern ones, if you will, international parks and our state parks. The trouble is, they have the upkeep, you know, a lot of them, but the designs on a lot of the old the wood, the law, I mean, I mean, they're just beautiful structures, some of these old outhouses that, that whole national park design that that throughout the 30s and early 40s, yeah, because nobody likes just, a, I mean, functional, but it looks like something that came out of Soviet Russia. These just, you know, plain ugly buildings via Dubia. I like a little bit more flavor to my outhouse. I like something that, you know, I'm gonna tell you. This is slightly off topic, because it's not in Washington, but I'm just gonna mention that in Denali National Park in Alaska, at the tech lenica Rest Area, which is not a place you can drive to, it is, um, you'd go either on the bus tour or on the the train. There's a train goes through there, doesn't it? It does not. It does not. No, the train just goes to the Perkins. I have not been there, yes. Um, so Teeka has also known as tech, for short, has, oh, it's flash. That's the end of the road, and not the end. It's at mile four. Okay, yeah. So it's beyond where you can drive a private car, but it's not as far as, like, where the washout is right now, and that rest area is all pit toilets there's like they're all single stall, but there are, I don't know, probably 30 stalls there. It's a very busy spot when the busses stop. Beautiful pit toilets, immaculately maintained, perfectly stocked with everything, super clean. And I always tell my guests on tour, I'm like, Well, I challenge them to take photos of the toilets anyway. A little bit of a tangent. But if you're ever in Alaska and you go to Denali one, yes, you do want to take the bus tour or the transit bus, it's worth it, even when. Road is closed. Contact me if you need to be convinced further and make note of those beautiful pit toilets. It's funny, you just brought that up, because if you're in the same vein, one of the coolest matter of fact in Forest Park. So this is in Portland, right over the border. If you go in there, and I have this in my original day hiking the Columbia River Gorge. It's in my original book, if you have that, it's on the belch Creek, which is a cut in the Tualatin mountains there and there and but people have dubbed the witch's castle, which drives me crazy, just an internet sensation. But this is beautiful structure that's in the wood. It looks, it looks, you know, definitely enchanting and everything, and and, and people take photos there and everything. It was actually built as a public restroom by the CC, the WPA, the CCC, back in the 30s. And then we really took some serious pride in building a beautiful right, so there. So I mean, there was some brewing going on in there, but it wasn't the richest brew, yeah, but that's, that's a classic, too. If you're really, you know, really get into the, really get into the beauties the Western, the west coast of North America, I'd say there's some beautiful structure. We just don't build them like we used to. True. It's so true. Okay, any other, any other favorites, before we moved on to a couple losers. No, I'm gonna give you the honor of the losers so I get the dirty job. Okay, I'm gonna keep it really simple. I'm just gonna make two nominations for terrible. So first of all, I wanna just make sure it's clear that with crappy budgets and being constantly defunded and blah blah blah, it is not reasonable for Washington DNR, or really the National Park Service, to really keep up with demand when it comes to these so I want To acknowledge that I am offering this up in good humor, okay, but if you don't like a gross outhouse, oh, wait, there's people out there like gross outhouses. Well, I personally would like choose to go up the trail a mile and pee behind a bush before I would go in a really nasty to just be completely honest with you. I'm with you on that, and in this first location, that's really challenging because it's a very busy trail. So do with this information, what you will. But I think the worst outhouse in Washington is the one at the Mount psi trail, Si, s i, G, H, or, s i, s i, in North Bend, one of Washington's two most popular hikes. If you're listening to this, you've definitely heard about it, and probably you've hiked it. Is that only because 1000 people a day hike there. I don't even know what the number is, but I think it's just really a volume game. I believe it's a two stall out house, which is just completely inadequate for what it is. And, you know, I think that the reality is, there are just so many people using it, but it's, it's now, I'm gonna also acknowledge that it's been, like, a year since I've used that outhouse, so maybe it's improved, but it's always been pretty rough, so, and that might be one of the areas you think about it again, it's all about budgeting. That maybe it makes more sense to that that Trailhead is not that far from the city limits, to hook that onto a, you know, the public wastewater, again, because the volume and you look in place like Mount Rainier, you know, in your paradise and everything flushing and things like that, because the volume is just you couldn't keep up with the pumping on that. Yeah, and in general, I would say that, if it's a really popular trail, the outhouse is probably struggling, although I will tell you that earlier, you know, just like a month ago, I did the snow Lake Trail at Snow call me pass, which is Mount Tsai and snow lake are the two busiest trails in Washington. And because I do what I do, sometimes I go and hike them, just to be like, how rough is this? And I want to just say that the snow Lake. Um, toilet in the alpent Hall parking it's basically in the parking lot of the alpent Hall ski area. Um, was actually in great condition. It was out of toilet paper, but it was, is that a flush or no, it's another one you can hook up onto the ski area. Yeah, interesting. I don't know why, but it's not it's been a long time. It was actually in really good shape. It was out of toilet paper, but it was a Monday, so I'm sure it hadn't been restocked yet. And again, you should never count on them having just thank you for that. Segue, yeah, do not before you sit down and do your business. The worst thing, well, one of the worst out of worst things is all sudden you did what you did, and. And you look over and there's nothing on the roll, and you're sitting there, oh, God, do I have tissue I use? This was a running race back East. You'll understand I didn't mistake. It was a busy race. I'm like, Oh my God. And thankfully, somebody had left a Dunkin Donuts bag with napkins. Extremely lucky. So I was extremely lucky on that. So thank you Duncan. So thanks guys. Okay, so the other one, and this is the one that I was mentioning earlier, so in the town of lb, which is this is more of a strange situation, more than it is. Okay, yep. So it's not exactly an outhouse, but I'll explain more in a minute. It's a rest area. It's a Washington State Department of Transportation rest area. So let's start there. Um, it is on. It is a tiny, tiny community that gets lots of visitors because it is on the only way into the Nisqually Entrance of Mount Rainier National Park. Now there are other places to enter the park, but the majority of people go through the Nisqually Entrance. So that means that you're going to drive through LB and Ashford and then before you get into the park. So it's tiny community, very busy so that I'm sure is really challenging to manage on summer weekends. So this rest area is like kind of a strange, large, white building. And what's weird about it is you can wash your hands with running cold water, but the toilets are dry. I don't even know. It's not an outhouse, but it's also not a flushing toilet. We call that a hybrid. I don't, I've never. It's actually the only, well, actually, in Mount Rainier National Park, there are a couple places that have the same setup, like the box canyon picnic area. Um, there's one other place that I am. I can't remember where it is. Um, anyway, so that's kind of an odd setup. I don't have any concerns about it, because I don't really care if the toilet flushes. What I care about is washing my hands. Um, but anyway, it's just, it's just odd. So I would love to actually know D O T if you're listening to this podcast, I'd love to have you contact me and just just tell me what's up with that. Because it's so quirky, it is quirky. So it's not it's not terrible. But I guess I would say it's the weirdest outhouse, the weirdest public restroom in Washington. Ooh, that that opens up. Yeah, that I've been to personally, um, I'm sure there are weird ones I haven't been to, or ones that have. We'll make it a mission to visit weird restaurants. So, uh, send us a message if you know of other weird public your favorite, least favorite, and in some future episode will will share your comments, because this is a fun topic we'll probably talk about again. And you know, the thing is, I have a nine year old son, so this is natural for me. We love talking about bathrooms and outhouses, everything, I mean. And I'll tell you at my age now, it never gets old, you know, no, it's just fun to talk great. It's, it's, it's something all humans have to do every day, right? More than once a day. Don't fool yourself if you poop too. Yes, everybody poops and we and Everybody pees. And if you stop doing those things, you need to call a medical professional, okay, um, or maybe 911, I'm not sure, but I'm not a doctor, but you need to do something. All right. Well, we're gonna sign off for now. Thank you for joining us for this episode of The Washington State hiking podcast. Hey, do you have questions for Jennie and I to answer in future episodes? If so, the link right below the tip jar lets you leave a voice memo for us. We'd love to hear from you. And if you are enjoying this ad free podcast. Please help support it by contributing to our tip jar. You don't need an account, and there's no commitment. It's the first link in the show notes. We also have links in the show notes to our work, both Craig's books, my website, if you would like to support us further and again, thanks again for joining us, and we look forward to the next episode you.