Lightening your load on the trail and in life with Glen Van Peski

Author, lightweight backpacker and author Glen Van Peski joins Craig and Jennie to share about lessons learned from traveling lighter in the backcountry for more adventures on the trail and in life beyond the trail.

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Transcript

Jennie Flaming: 0:00

Welcome to The Washington State hiking podcast. I'm your host, Jennie Thwing Flaming, and I'm your co host, Craig Romano, Craig and I are happy to have you here. We provide practical and timely, seasonal hiking advice for hikers, trail runners and potential hikers and trail runners of all skill and ability levels that is helpful, accurate, fun and inclusive. Hi everyone today, we have a really special episode today. Mostly Craig is going to be interviewing Glen Van Peski. And we really enjoyed this conversation with Glen, and he has a lot to share about lightning your load as a backpacker, but also in life, and then also shares some of his favorite hikes in Washington. And Glen is a fellow resident of the Pacific Northwest. He lives in Bend, Oregon, and recently published a book about all the things we're talking about today, and he is giving a book talk on January 11, so just a few days from now, if you're listening to this in real time at Village books in Bellingham, which is a wonderful location, you do Need to RSVP. It's free, and the link to register for the event is in the show notes. I hope you enjoyed this conversation with Glen

Craig Romano: 1:28

Hey. Welcome to the Washington State hiking podcast. And on today's program, we have a really special guest, and it's Glen Van Peski and some of you, I hope many of you should be familiar with him as as the founder of gossamer gear back in 1998 but what I have found out about Glenn since then, this guy is multifaceted. There. There's multi layered. But the main thing we want to talk about is he has a new book, and in his book he's going to share with us many of the lessons, the tenets, if you will, that he's taken from the trail and from his business life, and it transcends into life itself. So welcome. Glen, well,

Glen: 2:17

thank you. Pleasure to be on your podcast.

Craig Romano: 2:21

So tell us. So first of all, tell us about the new book. I mean, this is really exciting. You know, as an author, I'm always, always excited about new books.

Glen: 2:30

Yeah, this book was took, was couple years in the making. And John Mackey, the co founder Whole Foods Market, is a business partner and friend. That's a couple long stories there, but I hike with them a fair amount, and we'd be hiking along, and he's a big gear guy, and he, you know, we end up talking about gear, and he'd say, Glen\n, you should write a book about ultra light backpacking. And probably about 10 years ago, he started saying this. He says, you write the book, I'll write the forward. And I told him, there's plenty of great books out there. I don't think I need to have my two cents, but he's very persistent. And year after year he kept asking me about this book. And then pretty soon, his friends I'd be walking with one of them on a trip, and they said, Hey, I hear you're writing a book. So finally, figuring, oh my gosh, I better get around to writing this book, since he was very generous in offering to write the forward. So that's how the book eventually came to be.

Craig Romano: 3:28

No, no, I know, and I'm sorry I have not. I've not had a chance to read the book yet. I've just all the background I know about your story and everything so, so starting with that, do we go way back? I mean, I think, from what I've gathered so far, and just my research on on how gossamer came to be, it seems like you were Scout masters. Is that correct with your give so you have three sons, and you were a scout master, or scout leader, taking and backpacking, and you saw this need for for lighter gear. Is that? Is that the short version of how gossamer came to be?

Glen: 4:03

Yeah, there's, there's a couple of things that intersected there. Starting with when I left home, my mom thought every kid should leave home knowing how to cook, bake and sew, and so all three of us kids knew how to do that. And so that was kind of the first piece of the equation. And then, yes, I joined, well, our son Brian, our oldest son Brian, joined the local scout troop in Oceanside when we lived down in San Diego area. And Reed Miller, my buddy, who I'd met through Toastmasters and business, was the scout master. And so I ended up in charge of the backpacking program. And was very it was a large troop, you know, 80 to 100 boys, and had very aggressive schedule of of trips. And we had canoe trips and backpacking trips and the other thing. So the. Stone backpacking trip was a week in the Sierras, and you know, these poor boys were loaded up with with a lot of gear. My first trip in Sierra for a week, I left the trailhead with over 70 pounds of gear in my pack. And about the same time, Ray Jardine wrote his Pacific Crest, Crest Trail hikers handbook and Reed Miller read this and say, Glen, you got to read this, would? You know, there's ways to lighten the load. And so I read that, and thought, well, you know, the pack that they sold me at REI weighed seven and a half pounds empty. So I thought, well, that's probably a good place to start. So I started selling packs for myself

Craig Romano: 5:41

in those who are listening who don't know. Ray Jardine, he again, this is a Bible. His book is a Bible to the lightweight hiking movement. And you know, I started, I was introduced to backpacking, hiking through the scouts. And you is amazing, these poor scouts. And still, what's going on we have all this ultra light gear. I remember, just a few summers ago, I was in the alpine lakes wilderness, and there's a whole group of scouts struggling to get across this log. And so I decided, yeah, I'll help you. I grabbed his pack, and I thought I was going to fall right into the into the river. I'm thinking this kid probably only weighs 100 pounds in the in the pack was, you know, more than half is weight. That's insanity. So kind of all the scouts out there, I thank you for coming up with but I still think it's interesting trying to get the word out. Because I think for a lot of people, they think that lightweight means giving up a lot of comforts, a lot of community. And again, that's again, which you're designing, your your gear and everything that how do you incorporate, distill the functionality that you've got this ultra light gear, but it's still going to keep me dry, it's still going to keep me warm, it's still going to do what it's supposed to do. So so that was, I imagine there must have been a lot of trial and error and testing and and such, because, you know you're an engineer, is that correct? That's correct. Yep, yeah. So that would you definitely have the mindset for that? Yeah.

Glen: 7:07

And you actually see it seems like a statistically anomalous number of engineers backpacking for some reason. Or maybe there's just more engineers in life than you think. But yeah, I sewed one pack, and then as I'm hiking along, I'm always thinking of ways this could be better, you know, move this pocket down an inch and make it an inch bigger, and things like that. And so I sewed another pack, and eventually, when I got to the fourth pack, I made Reed. Jokingly called it the g4 because my first name starts with G, and it was the fourth pack I made, and I had it to where I was pretty happy with it. And so I put the plans on the internet so anyone could make one for free. But I kept getting requests. You know, I don't know how to sew, and I don't know anyone that knows how to sew. Can you make a pack for me? And I'm I'm working like 70 hours, 80 hours a week, doing the engineering right now. So it's like, no, I can't. I'm not going to make it back. But, you know, eventually I thought I should figure out a way to get a few made for people. And so that was kind of the start of gossamer gear.

Craig Romano: 8:15

It's amazing, too. And I can't believe you put that out there. Someone else could have stolen your works, and taking, taking all your credit for you and everything. So I'm glad that you had the rights to, you know, to your work. I know when I was reading back, so did you have to get people, the hiking community, the business community, to back the idea that, you know, to get, to get the company going? Was that? How difficult was that getting, getting this,

Glen: 8:42

this was a real bootstrap effort. I mean, I didn't put a lot of thought into it, because I only figured I would sell 25 packs. I mean, that based on the email inquiries I got. So, you know, I didn't worry about a company name, and, you know, I just funded it myself. We were selling the early packs. The G4s were selling for $70 Wow. You know which kind of covered postage and shipping, shipping containers and stuff like that. And yeah, and I just called it GVP gear using my initials, because I, you know, no sense coming up with something fancy for 25 packs. But before I even got shipped out of the first packs, I had 86 orders. So yeah, I kind of kind of went up,

Craig Romano: 9:34

went up from there. That's amazing. We said$70 in 1998 and even with inflation. I remember when I first bought my first serious pack at Kelty, I remember having to go down to the Dartmouth co op in New Hampshire, picked and I must have spent, I mean, 100 and which was a lot of money in the 1980s so this is you're giving a lightweight product that's very, very affordable. Well, and that's the other thing this big revolution I've noticed so is that lightweight, lightweight gear is not it's affordable now, and you should have lightweight gear. But so, so anyways, you know that cell basic gear, but, but what I found interesting too, about, you know, this whole mindset that comes with because we've seen with the ultra running and with fast packing, everything, things that we certainly couldn't have done or there weren't too many of us doing this in the 80s. This whole take less, you know, do more. Motto, Mantra, which I you know, definitely, I mean, I believe in that. You know, so many people in the hiking community do as well. But you You came up these three basic tenets, you know, through your through your works, the from, from your hiking, and from from, from your gear, for generosity, gratitude and curiosity, and kind of how you, you know it transcends just hiking, that it's your, your worldview and and I'm taking that's kind of where you're going this next stage with, with the book, it seems like you're there's a larger picture to this is that, tell me if I'm missing the missing Yeah. And it's probably

Glen: 11:12

important to, you know, explain for your listeners that, you know, there is one chapter in the book that is kind of my thoughts on ultra light backpacking, so there definitely is some of that. But what I realized as I wrestled with writing this book, and you know, in the spending, how you count the 50 years I've been working to reduce my pack weight, I realized that I'd learned other lessons along the way that were applicable to the rest of life, not just backpacking. And there are areas in life where to do more, you should take less. And so, you know, those those lessons fall into a number of categories. I mean, we put three in the subtitle, generosity, gratitude and curiosity. But you know, there are a number of lessons that I took from from ultralight backpacking and applied to the rest of life, and that's predominantly what the book about. It's, it's 15 lessons that you know stories from from backpacking are woven into lessons in life. So,

Craig Romano: 12:25

so you know, to some of our readers, to my readers, you can tell more of a writer, to some of our listeners, um, you know, what would you especially if they're flirting with the whole idea of backpacking, uh, or ultra running, same thing? Um, what would be some of these lessons that you know, obviously there's, there's the physical challenges and all that of doing these. But what would, what would you say are some of these, these lessons that would transcend into life in general, for someone to take this upon themselves?

Glen: 12:53

Well, one big one would be creating margin. So in ultra light backpacking, you take less weight, and when you're backpacking with less weight, you're more able to enjoy your environment. It has a number of benefits. You know, you can focus on what's going on around you instead of just you've probably seen people with big, heavy packs, they're just trudging along, staring at the ground. I mean, they're not observing and absorbing what's going on around them. It also gives you margin to help other people. If you have a group of, say, Boy Scouts, and you know, they're all carrying 50% of their body weight, and someone sprains an ankle, and you have to redistribute gear, that's a problem. You know, if you have several ultra light hikers and someone has a mishap, you can pretty easily redistribute some gear to take some weight off of their back, because everyone's carrying less weight. And so in life, when we create more margin, and this can refer to, you know, money, time and energy. There are a number of benefits, you know, on the on the money front, when we don't spend everything that we make, it gives us an opportunity, one you have savings for the future, rainy day fund, things like that, but it also gives you an opportunity to be more intentional in your generosity, so that as needs come across your path, you have money to address those needs, to help, to participate in life going on around you and helping other people. You know more time if, if you schedule every last minute, then you don't have time to take advantage of opportunities. You know, whatever those opportunities may be, you notice something and think, you know, I don't know if I'm the only one that's you've driven on the highway, or some you see a stopped car and think, like, I should maybe stop and see if that person needs some help or something, because I'm late for my. Meeting, I got to go, you know, and we don't have the opportunity because we haven't created that margin. And then in energy, you know, when I was working long hours and our boys were little, and Francie would, you know, have me read a book to Brian, and I would fall asleep reading the book. My last things I remember were him saying, Mom, you know, Dad's asleep. So I didn't have the energy at that point to really participate as a as a father and husband. So yeah, in in backpacking, taking less weight creates that margin. But it's important to look at ways to create that margin in life. Also, absolutely,

Craig Romano: 15:47

you know what I'm finding now, maybe or two. It's almost like there's, there's this dichotomy out there. And of course, in the hiking world too, there's definitely people that, you know, they're just occasional in gears, everything and all that, and maybe they're going for that Instagram shot and everything. And then there's definitely a whole new class of dirt baggers and minimalists, which has been wonderful again, especially in the trail running community. I think, you know, you were talking about it too. You know, I'm a road runner as well, and I've been, I was a competitive Road Runner when I was younger. And one of the things that's so appealing, I think, to many in the trail running community, exactly what you're saying before. It's camaraderie and and you're doing a race and someone's down and needs help. And I just did this event, same thing, someone helped me out and everything, because we're not competing against each other, we're kind of all together. And you're you're also you're focused on the moment. You're you're you're even though you're doing an altar, you're long but life things slow down. Every moment counts. And I think if we like you're saying we treat life like that. You know, does it? We can bring that across other aspects of our life. It makes it makes our lives that much more fulfilling, definitely. I mean, I think you hit the main things. I know. The same thing with the curiosity as well, too. And Jennie, I talk about this all the time, you know, I I want to live five lifetimes I have, I'm never going to run out of things. And boredom doesn't exist in my in my vocabulary. And yet, we still have people that, you know, have all these opportunities and like how, you know, they get caught in these traps. And don't, you don't realize. So do you, how do you feel? How do you get people, especially today, I was reading some of the your causes that you're very, very interested in. You know, the concern you and I agree, you know, like alcoholism and substance abuse, and it's happening so many people and, you know, just this alienation that's going on. How do you, how can we get, you know, do you? Do you hope to to to come across to some of these people, and because, you know how much the life of being out in the in the woods and walking freely, unencumbered by tons of gear and tons of that, that it's, it's the way to live, you know, yeah,

Glen: 17:58

it made me smile when you said, you know, you you need to live five lifetimes. I was shaking my head. You know, there were people during the pandemic that were saying, you know, I'm bored because I've watched everything on Netflix, and it's like, oh my gosh, you poor person. And what a sad life that you I mean, I always have more things I want to do than I have time to do them, which is in itself, you know, an issue, because you know, if you rush from one to the other, you miss those little unintended opportunities. So it's always a always a balance. There one of the books that I mentioned in my book, I think you would enjoy the comfort crisis. Have you read this? No, I haven't. No, I will send you a copy. Thank you. Yeah, I have some copies signed by the author, but he makes a couple points, Michael Easter, the author, and one is that, you know, we're all familiar with the nutritional pyramid. He says there ought to be, like an outdoor pyramid, where, you know the base level is three times a week, for 20 minutes you should get outside without your phone, without listening to anything, just walking outside and Then, and I'm not even get this exactly right, but you know, on a maybe once a month you should do something more, more strenuous. You know what some of the hikes you and Jennie are always talking about, where you take a day and you go climb a mountain or something, you get a little deeper into the real wilderness, instead of your city parks or around your block, and then, you know, sometimes you should do like a I mean, I'm sure you've experienced the the three day rule where, you know, if you're on a backpacking trip, it kind of takes three days for you to forget about your to do list, and, you know, all the stuff wondering. What you got, or what the conditions are going to be, and just be there outside. And so it's important to to build in some of those trips where you get past the three days so you can really unwind and just be there. And then he talks about doing a misogy once a year that you know, we challenge yourself to push your boundaries, something you only have a 5050, chance of of doing. You know, support. You know, if you don't finish it, it's not like you're going to die. You want to structure it, obviously, that you survive it. But one of the other things he talks about in the book is how we've done such a good job of killing boredom, and that's not good for us that we need to be bored sometimes, and just to, you know, force us, force ourselves to to walk without the headphones and just let the mind get into that soft focus. And, you know, think about people that you need to be in touch with. Or, you know, often, solutions will pop up for something you've been wondering about, or

Craig Romano: 21:03

that's funny that he considers that boredom, because I don't consider that boredom. That's to me, I do the ultras. I biked across America with no music or headphones. I've never run a race with headphones. And to me to get into my head and run everything, that's not boredom at all. It's interesting that he would consider that boredom? Oh no. Well,

Glen: 21:22

I think most people like it. Drives my wife crazy because she's always listening to something, you know, always playing something on her phone. And we do a lot of road trips in our Sprinter van. And, well, I'm happy like you. I suspect I can go all day without saying anything, because I'm thinking stuff, you know, and just letting my mind wander. She does not like to do that. And I think Michael Easter's point is, you know, most people don't give themselves a chance to get to let their mind wander because they're trying to listen to something, if it trying to listen to podcasts, for instance, you know, always trying to be productive, or just not wanting to be alone with your own thoughts.

Craig Romano: 22:04

Yeah, and you nailed it on that. And I think that's amazing. It's scary for one thing, because there's so much in it, and especially the more miles we have on our on our feet, there's a lot there, and that is scary. And I think a lot. And again, I can't speak for everybody, and some people, some people just know, dude, I just like listening to music when I run, but I think a lot of it is when you go. I know so many times I've just dug it's it's therapeutic, and I have catharsis, and ya ha moments and all these things. And especially as a creative I've, you know, outlined and created so much in my mind. If I've ever had writer's block, it's out to do a run. And so again, nature inspires all that. And yeah, I'm looking at nature, but I'm but so many, so much, I'm turned inward, and I think, yeah, you know maybe what most people would call boredom. They'd say, God, that sounds so boring. I just did a 50 mile run on a rail trail in Kansas. And people said, that sounds boring. I said it was amazing, but I think most people right. You know, that would be boring, and just it's kind of retraining the mind to go places where you've never gone before. So yeah, these are one thing

Jennie Flaming: 23:19

I'm thinking about here listening to you guys talk like, Glen, I'm more like your wife. And it's funny, because this is something that Craig and I have talked about before, the whole idea of hiking with headphones. We've had some fun conversations about that.

Craig Romano: 23:35

We balance each other out. Jennie, yeah, we do.

Jennie Flaming: 23:38

It's fun. And that's one reason why this episode is fun, because this, like, longer distance, you know, more contemplative, um, lighter travel thing is way out of my comfort zone, but I am, I am still, that's why I'm glad we're doing this, because I think kind of going to something that You said a few minutes ago. Glen, it's like, and you know, Craig, you talked about this too, like it's okay to feel a little uncomfortable sometimes, right? Like, I think in the outdoors, that's a great place to find comfort and familiarity. And, you know, I listen to music or podcasts a lot, and I think it's great if people do that, but I don't always, you know, sometimes I'm like, today or for the next 20 minutes, I'm gonna just be here and I'm not gonna listen to anything. And then sometimes I end up doing a whole hike that way, you know, once I start. So I think that is I just, it's really interesting to hear you talking about that. Yeah.

Glen: 24:45

I mean, the comfort crisis is a fascinating book, because his general premise is, we've done too good a job of humans as modern humans, of creating a comfortable life, and that's a good thing, but we've done it too well, and it's. Telling us, you know, we need, we need some discomfort to really thrive as humans.

Craig Romano: 25:07

And you nailed it. And that's exactly, I think, why things like ultra running is becoming so popular. I mean, the idea of going out and running, you know, 50k 50 miles, there's nothing comfortable about that you have to force yourself out of your comfort zone accept a challenge. And I just read this report just a few days ago, again, that we we become our better selves by these challenges, taking these challenges and trying to to to meet that challenge. And again, like you mentioned earlier, too, and I joke about this all the time too. It's like, when I do these Ultras, well, the worst thing that can happen to me is I get tired and I stop. It's not like I'm going to free climb on Half Dome and die. So I think for some people to accept, you know, definitely put yourself out of your comfort level. But, yeah, you still, you know, don't, don't go swimming in a shark infested waters. I'm like that, that. But I think there's so much when you when you come out of that. To me, there's this. It just elevates your your sense of being. I think you again. There's so many times we're in this, especially now where everything, I mean, I'm talking to you via computer screen. I'd rather be in a coffee shop where, you know, we're constantly all these distractions, with gadgets, and there's very few moments when we feel alive, and maybe that's why there's been such a surge now in long distance hiking and ultra running and everything. I wonder County, Is it some kind of counter cultural reaction to society? So it's interesting to watch this. I mean, then you've been, you know, you know, I you and I think we're on the the the we're young boomers, so we've seen a lot of change out out there do, what do you think? Are you seeing a cultural shift in the outdoors? Or is it just people are, are walking to to the outdoors because they're they see pretty pictures on social media. Well, I think,

Glen: 27:03

you know, I think the pandemic helped, because outdoors was, like the only place that it was safe to be, and so I think a lot of people discovered the outdoors. But, you know, once that kind of faded, I think most people like, well, like they went back to the clubs or whatever, and it's important to to talk about. I mean, people's comfort zones are going to be different. I mean, your comfort zone is like, yeah, maybe you're comfortable with 100 miler, but a 200 mile race that's outside your comfort zone. For someone who lives in the city, just being going for a walk in the woods is way outside their comfort zone, right? And that's one of the most exciting things to me, is getting more people outside, people who don't have, you know, their family didn't go camping, or that's being outside is not a thing in their culture. It's exciting to me to see more people outside than look like the regular white male dirt baggers, right? Yeah, cool, because everyone needs it, you know, and you don't, you know, people to be able people to see themselves outdoors and enough to go out there and do it. I do some work with the women who explore, which is, you know, a group, as you might expect, you know, to help women get over that kind of fear of safety and whatever, and to get outside and enjoy hiking and backpacking. Yeah,

Craig Romano: 28:39

absolutely, and I'm definitely noticing that running trail, running, hiking, being outdoors, is definitely becoming more reflective of society in general. And Jennie and I are all about that. I know you're all about that. It's a great thing. And what's interesting, though, at the same token, I got to throw us out there, because we meet some of the other backlash here. There's been all this push by people like like us and everyone else to get people out there, and yet the gatekeepers are out there yelling at us that, Hey, why are you exposing all these places? Why you know all these people? It's almost like, you know, I think they're redirecting their anger at the wrong people. Instead of saying, we need to fund in, fund our our lands, better expand them. Instead, they're yelling at people like us, like, why are you telling everyone to go out there? And do you have any, any, any takes on that?

Glen: 29:30

Um, yeah. I mean, I enjoy as much as the next person, you know. I mean, I've been on hikes early season through the Sierra, when you go for a week and you see one other person, and that's great that all that land is set aside for my personal enjoyment, but I think there's plenty of land out there. And, you know, yeah, if you go on the popular trail heads, yeah, it can. Be pretty busy. I mean, in the Jefferson wilderness here, they just instituted, you know, permits, which was a pain. You had to think ahead. But I really think they did a good job of it. And we had some out of town guests, and took them up to green lakes the other day, and was like, wow, this is an entirely different experience, seeing five or 10 people instead of 50 or 60 people, right? And so it's just a matter of, there is plenty of land out there. There's plenty of trails out there. And so, you know, let the people who grew up in the city and don't know, let them do the classic trails, or the ones, you know, the short trails, the ones with the easy trail heads, and get out there a little further and explore some different areas, or even start going off trail. I mean, I think there's plenty of land out there, and there's plenty for everybody just need to disperse a little Yeah,

Craig Romano: 30:56

I agree. Yeah. I was just curious. But because that's an interesting that watching that evolve now, especially some of the areas, because carrying capacities and all. But there's ways of managing, like I said in I'm familiar in the mount Jefferson area, how they started having to quote it, and I think you're going to see more of that. But I think there's definitely, like you said, there's so many places, even I've been at Joshua Tree National Park. You know, you're right outside of LA and I've been on trails where, you know, there's only a couple it's out there. It's amazing. And I always bring southern because I spent a lot of time in Southern California, which you're well, familiar with. I can't tell you how many times I've hiked down there, which crazy. I say, I can't believe there's 20 million people around me. Why? Why am I? I was in the Chino Hills last, last year, we a dozen people hiking all day, and the Chino Hill surrounded by 20 million people. And yet, you know, everyone's going to the same, same place. So, so again, again, you know, it's part of that comfort and seeing, seeing the same images and and that again, having goes back to your curiosity that there's, you know what, what's around that other corner. There's so many places to explore, which is what brought me to Kansas. So,

Jennie Flaming: 32:07

you know, I wanted to just break in and, like, emphasize that point to you. You know, that's another thing Craig and I have talked about quite a bit off the mic as well. Is this, like, gatekeeping idea. And you know When? When? Either here I get hate mail over recommending a hike that, like other people are like, don't tell anyone about Mount Si. And we're like, people already know about that's not really a problem. But you know, in addition to what you were saying, Glen about like, going further and deeper into the back country. You can also go the other direction, like I'm thinking about a couple of hikes that I've done recently on Bainbridge Island and on Vashon Island, both of the one of them is the gazem Lake nature trail, or the grand forest and Bainbridge, like we've talked about these hikes before, or several on Vashon Island, and you know, you are right next to Seattle, which is a huge hiking city. You can get to them on public transit, their cell phone service, and on a sunny like most recently, on Black Friday, I went for a five and a half mile hike on the gas and Lake nature trail. All those things applied, and I saw seven people, right? So, so there are so many ways, if you want to get away from crowds, like you can go deeper into the back country, but you can also go to a kind of, you know, people don't really think of Bainbridge Island as a hiking destination, but it's pretty great for that. So yeah, and I think most cities in Washington and also Oregon, have those kind of trails that that are bananas busy, but also ones that aren't that busy.

Craig Romano: 34:08

And most cities, that's the thing. Jennie, when I go outside of Boston, outside of LA, it's the same thing. It's amazing, because everyone's going to the same places, and you can and the the irony is, lots of times, people will do these three hour drives to a crowded trail, and 20 minutes away from where you live is where people aren't. So I think there's a lot of opportunity that's in your back, literally in your backyard.

Glen: 34:30

Yeah, do either of you guys follow Brendan Leonard semi rad. he does some funny stuff, and he did like a seven summits thing of like, seven hills around his house, you know? Oh, that's so fun.

Jennie Flaming: 34:46

Yeah? It was like, I'm not familiar with him. I'll have to follow him. Semi rad, Yeah,

Glen: 34:50

funny, yeah. Super funny thing. I think his mom is on that particular episode, and she's a sweetheart. I. But yeah, and he did one, like, just around his house in Missoula. I forget what it was, but same kind of concepts, like, you know, we get creative. You don't have to do wild, crazy stuff. And he had talked about curiosity. He has, like, a standard run that he does periodically. He's a runner, and, you know, he goes by these plaques, and he never pays attention to him, because he's running, you know. But one day he, like, went and read all the plaques and all the cool things he learned. And, you know, that could be a different hike, too.

Craig Romano: 35:32

That's so funny. You said that. I think Jennie and I talked about that. So I lived in Seattle for years, and say, I had my my normal run. I run around Green Lake. There's 1000 million people there. And then I start, I wrote my urban trail Seattle book, and I went back on one of the coldest days of the year. And Seattle is pretty temperate, so it's like, just as transplant New Englanders and Minnesotans are out there, and for the first time, I'm looking at the statues. I'm looking at the trees. I mean, I'm like, Oh my God, I've run by this thing 17 years. Never saw this again. It's that just retraining your mind seeing things differently, that this discovery, the curiosity out of the ordinary, you know, yeah. So I So, because we are our Washington State hiking podcast, and I know you grew up in California and live in Oregon now, but we have to give some love to the state of Washington so. So tell me about some of your your your trail experiences here. I know you've done a lot. You've done most of the PCT, or

Glen: 36:27

Yeah, most of the PCT. I'm missing a chunk in Washington. I have done goat rocks, which, you know, wouldn't mind doing that section again. My in laws lived on orcs island for like 20 years, and so every summer we take the boys up there and hike up to, you know, Mount constitution. I have a brother in law's in Bellingham. We've done some walks, you know, Chuck and hut and, I mean, they have an amazing trail system in Bellingham, Fairhaven, with, like, all the signs and mileage like Holy mackerel, you could get anywhere you want and figure it out. You don't even need a map. It's amazing. So, yeah, we've done some hiking in I love Washington. Lots of lots of nice hiking.

Jennie Flaming: 37:17

What's your favorite section of the PCT in Washington? Glen? I know you haven't done all of it, but of the parts you have done, what is your favorite part?

Glen: 37:26

You know, hard to be goat rocks. I really liked goat rocks. Yeah,

Craig Romano: 37:33

what a lot of people don't realize too about the goat rocks, rights, man, is that North of Sierra, it is the highest stretch of the PCT. And a lot of people always think it's North Cascades there, but you're up on that knife edge. So it's an amazing experience. I know there's, there's definitely a lot more love in Washington, north of Seattle, but that South stretch has some beautiful stuff. And and, yeah, the goat rocks are definitely prime, one of my favorite areas as well.

Glen: 38:01

Yeah, I just love, I mean, I love being outside in general. But if I'm picking my favorite is, you know, in the mountains above tree line, and there's, there's plenty of that in Washington. So

Craig Romano: 38:12

if you love being above tree land, but have you, have you hiked in in the Appalachians?

Glen: 38:17

Uh, yes, yes. I've done a fair amount of the at along the way. Yeah,

Craig Romano: 38:22

the tree lines, a little more of a premium there. Yeah, yeah.

Glen: 38:26

I mean, enchantments. That's pretty amazing. Been lucky enough to be there twice. So that's a nice area that's, you know, you talk about, you know, that's hard to get to, and it's being managed by gatekeepers. But for obvious, obvious reasons, it's, it's beautiful up there.

Craig Romano: 38:47

I know, you know, again, I was looking at your background, and you, you've got so many things going on, you know, with your van, traveling, cycling and running. I don't know how much you're getting out hiking but, but I noticed too, one of the things you've taken up, you make your own bread. You're roasting coffee. But I saw, well, I'm reading about roasting coffee. Well, there's definitely a Washington connection there, because I saw you. Want to tell us who taught, taught you your love for roasting coffee, and how you got to meet one of our Washington legends here. Matter of fact, she was part of our running club before she became famous. So, very

Glen: 39:24

cool, yeah, so Anish was on her, I think, her calendar year, Triple Crown, fkT, and she took a rare zero day in Ben stayed at our house, and she her, I think previous boyfriend had, like, been traveling in Ethiopia, and, you know, got into somebody's hut or tent, and they'd roasted coffee over the over the fire, probably, and so he taught Anish, and Anish taught me, and I've been stoked up, right? Hosting my coffee ever since it's great

Craig Romano: 40:02

about playing it forward. So that whole community. Yeah, we have to do a program on coffee too. Hikers definitely love coffee.

Jennie Flaming: 40:12

the best, the best pre and post hike coffee shops in Washington. Maybe that'd be a good one.

Craig Romano: 40:19

Yeah. How again? You know you're at a point in your life it seems like, Oh, you're definitely taking more time, but you're still, you're involved with other entrepreneurship. I see, you know you're helping other businesses and backing there's a bunch on your website. You're a busy person. I mean, the whole thing. I mean, how do you balancing? Are you getting out on the trail as much as you want? Again, we talked about it earlier. It's the slowing down, but they're set. There's so much life to live. I can't slow down. There's so much. So how are you feeling about making that balance? Or do you just know you're content, you know? Or you're wired. I mean, you're just you're one of those type of people. They are constantly moving.

Glen: 40:58

I got a feeling you could probably answer this question too, because I think we're alike in that respect. It's, you know, it's always, it's a balance, and it's, you know, it's always a struggle. I'm always, there's always more things that I want to do than I'm doing. But on the other hand, that means whatever I'm doing is something I want to do, so I try and concentrate on that I'm really enjoying the things I'm doing, rather than fixating on all the things that I think I enjoy doing that I'm not doing because I don't have time. And I'm trying to, you know, build in margin for those unexpected, you know, to make sure I have time to meet with somebody, you know, somebody just connected me with someone who's starting up a cure company, to make sure I have time for those around me, and to time to notice, just To notice other people. You know, I'm at a point in the life when, when I meet someone new, I'm always interested. It's like, okay, so Why has God crossed my path with this person? You know? Is there something I'm supposed to help them with, something that I have unique talents or resources that I can help them with, or is there something that they're going to help me with on some project I'm working on, or is there some word that that I need to hear that they're going to deliver to me? It's always exciting to want to meet a new person, like, Gosh, I wonder how this is going to unroll.

Craig Romano: 42:35

Yeah, I believe exactly what you said. I you know, I don't believe in happenstance. And there's, like you said, there's been so many incidences on the trail and in life, how things come together and meant to happen. And even, you know, I'm struggling by things in my past that I wish didn't happen, but then you turn back and they had to happen to get to this certain point again. This is all what goes on in my mind when I'm riding a bike across the country or trying to make sense of them. I think by the time we make sense of it's all we're done, because we're never going to make sense of it all. But yeah, I mean, again, I think for those of you listening, you know, I mean, I think Glenn's books is going to be a fascinating read, because he's a multi faceted person. There's so much there. And I would love to go for a run or a bike ride with you, or drink coffee, just Yeah, so many things. Is there anything else you so you want to get across to our audience here. I know you're going to be so you're going to be at Village books in Bellingham on January 11, talking about your new book. Do people need to sign up for that? It's a great venue if you've never been there in the Fair Haven district,

Glen: 43:52

yeah, they do need to sign up on the village books website, or there's a link on my website, led van pesky.com under Events. And, yeah, it'll be good time be talking about the book. I'll be signing any books people want to buy there, and we'll be doing some fun giveaways, too nice.

Craig Romano: 44:14

And I wish I was going to be there, but, you know, I'm going to be name your old neck of the woods, doing a 50 mile run on the the San Diego, San Diego Greenway on January 11.

Glen: 44:27

That is, that is, of, you know, too many fun things to do, yeah,

Craig Romano: 44:35

in San Diego. Nice, nice. Yeah, that's gonna be all new to me. So I thought, why not? It's, it's, it's it's going to be a lot sunnier and warmer than here on January 11. Yep.

Jennie Flaming: 44:44

Glenn, before we let you go, can I ask you a couple of short questions to wrap things up? Sure. Okay, they're, they're kind of practical little things so different from a lot of what we've been talking about. So the first one is. What do you think is the biggest waste of weight that a typical person has in their pack while hanging

Glen: 45:12

Boy, that's tough, because there's so many areas I would figure you know, one that most people don't think of is food. Yeah, if you're in a multi day trip and you don't know how much food you need, and you take, so you take more food tends to be heavy,

Jennie Flaming: 45:30

yeah? So instead of, like, doing the math and being like, Okay, how much, how many calories do I actually need? And you know, what am I bringing? Is that kind of what you mean?

Glen: 45:40

Yeah? And I don't, I don't. I don't get to the calorie count. I mean, I just know I need 1.2 to 1.4 pounds a day, yeah, for a full day. And so I do the math, and hopefully I do it correctly. I don't take extra food,

Jennie Flaming: 45:56

And then the other, the other question that I had for you is for someone who's like wanting to lighten their load in whatever way, whether that's their backpack, their life, you know, anything like that, what would you recommend? But let's say you know, I know, for many of us, but for many humans, making changes is really hard because it can be overwhelming. So I'm curious what you would recommend as like a first like a small first step for someone who's like, Okay, I want to lighten my load. I can't replace all my gear tomorrow, or I want to make my life a little lighter. I guess those are kind of two questions. But like, what would be, what's kind of your go to first step that you'd recommend to others?

Glen: 46:53

Well, you know, and I appreciate you say, you know, start small. It's like something that there's lots of things when you don't know anything about. It's intimidating. But I would say for for lightning, your backpacking load, the first step would be to, you know, buy a scale, if you don't have a postage scale, and just do a spreadsheet with all your gear on it, you know, everything, like pack like you were going on trip, and weigh every little individual thing, because that's a good first step, because then you know what stuff weighs, yeah, and you'll think about it differently. I mean, you you might think, you know, I love my air mattress, and it doesn't really weigh that much, and then when you see how much it actually weighs, you go, Holy mackerel. Yeah. Is there another way to do that? So I would say that's the first step. Is just, you know, weigh everything and put on a spreadsheet, take a look at it. I like that, yeah, then you can look at like, hey, multiple use items is there, you know, and think about like, What didn't I use on the last three trips? But I'm still caring. It's like, okay, well maybe, you know, first aid would be an exception to that, obviously. But, you know, maybe there's maybe I don't need to take it if I haven't used it, yeah, which, of course, you can do, you know, in your closet too. But I think that, you know, the one thing that seems to resonate on the non backpacking side, the most with people is being more intentional with generosity. So we have a separate account and a set account of all set amount of percentage of all income goes into the separate account, and so it's, it's out of our budget. You know, I think most people want to be generous, but you know, you have a friend that just lost their job could use a little extra help, but your car just broke down too, or your kid needs braces or whatever, so it's like, I can't really help out. Yeah, and so we have the separate account, and we started small with 5% of our after tax income, and now it's a significant portion of our before tax income. Fact, we're in the middle of doing year end donations now to kind of clear it out. But when you set aside a set amount of money, you know, or paycheck, or every month, however you do it into a separate account, then when a need comes across your path, you don't have to ask, Oh, do we have money to help? You just need to ask, Does this have our name on it? This is something that we think has our name on it? Well, then we have the resources to help. And this has proved empowering to people. And you know, in terms of, I mean, everyone wants to be happier, studies have shown that the happiness from generosity, from being generous is roughly equivalent to a doubling of salary. So cool, you can double your salary, although then the happiness with that actually goes away with time, whereas the app, the happiness from being generous, the. Them, stays undiminished with time.

Craig Romano: 50:03

There's the same thing when, when we give something, when we give a gift, we get more joy out of that than actually receive it. In the studies on that, I'm glad you brought that up, Glenn, it's one of the things you know, I've always been in my books and a lot kind of more stealth. But to me, I really, I think it's important to any of us who recreate, we need to get back. And what's great here in Washington? I mean, we with the Washington Trails Association, we have this wonderful organization, the amount of volunteer work, it's incredible. But yet, there's still, you know, a lot of people that just take things for granted that are lands or trails communities, and you know, it's one of the things I definitely like to see more you know, you're giving back to it, it's part of a community, and not just taking from it. How do you feel on that? Do you see, do you see more people getting involved? Do you see, are they more consumptive? Do you talk about that at all? Because, obviously, it's part of your generosity. It's very much a big part.

Glen: 51:08

Yeah. I mean, we're, we're wired to be selfish and concerned about our own self interest. But you know, I think when you part of that is, you know, taking less, taking less, maybe taking yourself less seriously and be more curious, and it kind of expanding your focus. So instead of focused in, your focus outward, and instead of, you know, it's, what, what can I do? What? What do other people need? I'm donating all the proceeds to my book, to the Pacific Crest Trail Association, which, you know, obviously has some some trail in Washington, because I'm just at a point in my life where you know more money isn't going to make my life better at this point. So what makes it better is impacting other people. And, you know, talking to making new friends.

Craig Romano: 52:03

Yeah, a great way to live, yeah, yeah, I do have one last question, why Austin? Why is gossamer in Austin, Texas?

Glen: 52:14

Gosmer gear is based in Austin, because, and there's a whole several stories about this, but I'll give you the short version. I was going to close Goss mcgeer down, and it was rescued by John Mackey, who hired someone to run it, put some money into it, and he lives part of the year, at least in Austin. So the person he knew and he hired to run it at that time, the day to day stuff, also lived in Austin, so that's why the company's still in Austin,

Craig Romano: 52:44

and there's nothing. Boston's a wonderful town. I was just curious. I was wondering, why isn't that not in Oregon or

Glen: 52:51

it's not a boulder, right? Austin's a great place. A lot of people like but it's not, you know, if you like the outdoors and backpacking and mountains, you gotta drive some

Craig Romano: 53:01

it's a long way to Big Bend or to Colorado, right? Yeah, yeah.

Jennie Flaming: 53:08

Glen, thank you so much for for being with us and sharing your story.

Glen: 53:14

Sure glad to I actually, I've got a batch of sourdough going. I'm experimenting with 50% whole wheat. So this is low 503

Jennie Flaming: 53:24

so nice. Well, thank you so much.

Craig Romano: 53:28

Yeah, good luck with your program again. That's January 11, up at Village books in Bellingham, and hope to hope to meet you on the trail somewhere. Yeah, no, that'd be great. You.

Jennie Flaming: 53:42

Jennie, thank you for joining us for this episode of The Washington State hiking podcast. Hey, do you

Craig Romano: 53:48

have questions for Jennie and I to answer in future episodes? If so, the link right below the tip jar lets you leave a voice memo for us. We'd love to hear from

Jennie Flaming: 53:56

you. And if you are enjoying this ad free podcast, please help support it by contributing to our tip jar. You don't need an account, and there's no commitment. It's the first link in the show notes. We also have links in the show notes to our work, both Craig's books, my website. If you would like to support us further.

Craig Romano: 54:17

Hey again. Thanks again for joining us, and we look forward to the next episode. You.