The Washington State Hiking Podcast

Is Valentine's Day hiking a good idea?

• Jennie Thwing Flaming and Craig Romano • Episode 50

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Jennie Flaming:

Welcome to the Washington State hiking podcast. I'm your host. Jennie Thwing Flaming,

Craig Romano:

and I'm your co host. Craig Romano

Jennie Flaming:

Craig and I are happy to have you here. We provide practical and timely, seasonal hiking advice for hikers, trail runners and potential hikers and trail runners of all skill and ability levels that is helpful, accurate, fun and inclusive. Craig happy, almost Valentine's Day

Craig Romano:

I know. And this is one of those holidays. Either, no pun intended, either love it, okay, yeah, or it's like, oh God, you know. Can we just skip this day, please? You know, so

Jennie Flaming:

do you love it or do you hate it?

Craig Romano:

I love it. I'm Italian. I'm a romantic. You know, it's Valentine's definitely. I love it.

Jennie Flaming:

I know I this is gonna be a fun episode, because we're gonna have so many different opinions. It's gonna be great. Okay, so you're a lover, I'm a hater. Cool. Okay? So Valentine's day is Friday, and if you're thinking of fun, outdoorsy, romantic things to do, perhaps Craig and I can

Craig Romano:

help you. So we should start, you know, in this again, you know both Jennie and I are we're married. We're in committed, committed relationships and everything, so

Jennie Flaming:

not to each other, married to other people for a very long time,

Craig Romano:

that'd be a new revelation. Yeah, but, um, so we, you know, I guess what I'm saying, we're not in the, in the, in the dating scene right now, right?

Jennie Flaming:

Um, so this might be slightly hypocritical, but that's okay. We'll do it anyway. But

Craig Romano:

it may. I mean, here's the thing, you know, I try to, I have lots of friends who are single and friends who are young. Doesn't matter how old you are, you know, dating, you know, I'm a runner and and, you know, obviously a hiker, but one of the most popular places right now in the romance department, you know that people are getting tired of swipe left, swipe right is running. Running clubs have become like, okay, become hookup centers, you know, okay, and be and have become great places to meet people and hiking. And I should, so my second date to the woman that I am married to was a hike. Okay, so, I mean, so that's adorable. So it was definitely, you know, I was thinking of it, something romantic to do. Yeah, we went on a hike on our second and

Jennie Flaming:

and how tell I want to know how that went

Craig Romano:

well. So I love this story. So yeah, so we actually met. I was, it was very few times that my writing actually had a better benefit than just getting a paycheck. I was her waiter in a restaurant, yes, and she recognized my name from an article that she had read for the University of Washington daily. And so she's like, you're the hiking

Jennie Flaming:

guy. So funny. Been called worse things much, yeah. I mean, that's for sure, true, you have

Craig Romano:

to take me hiking. And I'm thinking, Who the hell are you? I don't even know who you are. You want me to take you hiking? Because, let me tell you that hiking is probably not the best thing for a first day. Though. We can open this up for that conversation.

Jennie Flaming:

So wait a minute, it was your first date or your second. But here's the thing. She said,

Craig Romano:

Take me hiking. And I'm like, Okay, I don't even know you are. Why don't we go for a cup of coffee first? Yeah, I would do the same if we get beyond that stage hiking. So we got beyond the coffee stage. And so hiking was the next, okay, and so here's

Jennie Flaming:

the interest after coffee. You were like, I could do a hike with this gal.

Craig Romano:

I can do no, I gotta take this better. She was not a hiker. Oh, she wanted to learn about hiking.

Unknown:

Oh, I had to. Um,

Craig Romano:

I had to come up with something, what would be a good place. I wanted to something fairly you're gonna love this, because you're gonna think, Romano, you're torturing. I'm thinking fairly easy. I chose surprise Lake. Okay, that's not that easy for most people, but, yeah, we're young. She This is good. It had the payoff. You know, old growth forest, beautiful lake. It wasn't too far. So this is our second date. I'm driving. We get up there, we get to the trailhead. It's pouring rain. This is in June. It's just pouring rain. Yeah, oh god, she's not going to want to do this. And I'll tell you. We get the trailhead. I'm prepared for this already. Do you want to go out? And she looks at me, yeah, let's do it. And then, yeah, this woman's perfect for me. I can't believe she's got the right attitude. She wants to go out and play in the rain. So, I mean, this is all things you're thinking about. If you're thinking about you're putting your date to the test. This is a lot better than playing pool or whatever. I don't know. So it clears up on us. Fine. Intervention here meant to be, yes, we came out nine o'clock at nights, June, you know, it was wonderful. It was magical. We're the only ones on the trail. The hike sealed it. Okay? It was into the joke I was telling everybody surprise, like, who would know?

Jennie Flaming:

You know? So was. It love at first hike. That's a good one. I don't know if

Craig Romano:

it was love at first hike, but it was definitely, was definitely interesting. I definitely there was a future here. It wasn't like, oh, I can't wait to drop her off, and this is a big mistake, because I had gone on hikes with other people, like, oh, this was a big mistake. Or just the, you know, things didn't work. The attitude, you know, you're out with somebody and like, they're just behaving totally different. Or the worst is like, Oh, this is boring. You know what was interesting, actually wrote an article about this, is that taking someone on a hike for the first time, she saw the whole trail and everything, like the eyes of a child like, Oh, isn't this amazing? Isn't this amazing? I'm thinking, Yeah, I've seen this all before. And also I caught myself, Oh, my God, it's the Ronald Reagan syndrome, where it's like, you've seen one redwood. You've seen them all. It's like, No, I go to redwoods all the time. They're amazing. That was called Ronald. It's the I call it that because Reagan made this happy to have learned that he made this remark, and I'm paraphrasing, it was something that nature like when they went to protect Redwood National Park. He's kind of like what you've seen them all. He didn't exactly say it that way, but again, but that was kind of, it's in general lure. Now we say that, but we're and I'm not ripping on the president of the former president, ripping on that attitude, because a lot of us fall into that. I know people that absolutely hate old growth forests, like a bunch of boring trees. And the thing is, what I've gotten into, I still get excited over old growth trees are amazing, but I fell into the trap of like, Oh yeah, it's just a, you know, a stellar J I see them all the time. Where you start, it becomes familiar, and you no longer see things. And a lot of us fall into that trap, and I know we've talked about that a lot, yes, run the same places. When I lived in Seattle, you didn't see things, and then when I went back, looking at it differently, as a guidebook author called like I was recognizing things for the first time, even though I had done this loop 100 times and never Yeah, so it's the same thing you train yourself. So having somebody who who never if everything was exciting, and to see this in somebody this, like, oh my god, this is incredible. And you've certainly like, wow. So it made me realize that things about myself and saw things too, yeah. Isn't that what you know, when you're interested in someone, a partner, dating? Isn't that what you want? You know, it's something. It's you're seeing beyond. So I got that out of this the second date, it was like, this amazing, like, wake up, Romano, you're getting complacent here,

Jennie Flaming:

you know? Yeah, you know, it's funny. This is not related to Valentine's Day or relationships, but I am not, in general, a person who takes things for granted, including little things. But I don't know if I've mentioned this on the podcast before. I don't think I have, because it's kind of a dark secret, but true confusion. Wow. Yeah, jungle, i Yes, I took trees for granted until kind of recently, let's just say, until I was in my 40s. Now I'm not proud of it. I won't try to defend it. I did grow up in Seattle, a place that has a lot of trees, and in a state Washington that has a lot of trees.

Craig Romano:

Geez. We call the Evergreen State we are. And

Jennie Flaming:

by the way, I always think when people drive into Washington in like the Walla, walla area and see the sign that says, Welcome to Washington, that Evergreen State, they're like, What? Yeah. So anyway, I when I and I have a lot of experience working as a tour guide, but most of that has been in Alaska, but for a few years, shortly before the pandemic, I worked as a guide here in Washington and took people on day trips to Mount Rainier National Park, Olympic National Park Mount St Helens, and then sometimes to the islands and stuff. And in that job, that was where I learned to appreciate trees. And it was for exactly the reason that you mentioned. Like, people would be like, these trees are amazing. And then I was like, yeah, they are Wow. What is wrong with me anyway, yeah, so it's a side track side note. What's funny

Craig Romano:

you're talking and it just brought back. I don't know if I should reveal this or not, because I might be, oh, my secret, dark secret, might get crucified. And so this is God, how many years ago. So one of the things knowing nature and everything, and you know Heather, who became my wife. So this obviously was a very, very successful date. She knew that I was Mr. Back country in new nature and everything that when the

Jennie Flaming:

hiking guy, Mr. Back country, that

Craig Romano:

when she witnessed a Gray. Jay, camp robber, okay, eat the bird. Yes, grain out of my hand. She was amazed. Like, oh my god, birds eat out of his hand. Hey, why is it now, we know in the in the Leave No Trace. You know, people like, Don't feed the bird. You know, it's like, well, you've been married a long time. So this is one of my confessions from way, way back. It was very good, so that you used to feed wildlife that? Well, not. No, I didn't used to feed wildlife. I just let this great J feet out of my hand. It was gonna get in my because she was so amazed. Like, my God, this guy so too. But nature, not knowing that these things will just eat anything that, you know, they're like seagulls. Funny. It is funny, so, but I guess this all leads us, because it's Valentine's Day and all that. Do you think, would you Well, first of all, two things, if you're in a committed relationship, you know, obviously hiking could be if you're both hikers, of course, could be a great Valentine's Day. And, yeah, if you're not, you're trying to fight. Would you take your first date on a hike? So I guess we could look at it two different ways. Are you asking me or just throwing it out there? What do you think I mean? No, never for a first and I did on my second date. So really brave. So did any of you out there in listener land? Yes,

Jennie Flaming:

please use that little button that says, send us a text. Please send us a text and tell us your hiking dating story. Yeah, it was your first day to hike, and if you're for your second, yeah, or any other,

Craig Romano:

were they successful or not, and would you have done it for Valentine's Day? So getting on that, let's just assume we're just with people who hike and they're in a relationship because you still celebrating Valentine's Day. What makes a romantic hike? Do you do romantic hikes?

Jennie Flaming:

I don't, but that's because, okay, so one other thing I want to say, I said that I hate Valentine's Day, which is true. I do believe in love. I think we should celebrate love. I very much left my husband, but I find the day weird, because I feel like if you're in a relationship, then you're supposed to either do a lot of things or expect a lot of things, or and then if you're not in a relationship, you're supposed to feel bad about that, and I don't know, I just don't buy into any of that. And but fortunately, Jay and I, that's my husband, we see eye to eye on this, and so we just, you know, we try to do things to celebrate our relationship, like more often than twice a year. So just want to defend my it's not because I don't believe in love. I very much do, but I think it's a weird holiday anyway. Um, so Jay is not a hiker unless he's getting paid. He grew up in the National Park Service as a park brat, and he has he's professionally trained as an archeologist, and so he's done a lot of field archeology, which involves a lot of in his situation where he was doing that, lots of difficult hiking in terrible conditions, with like a heavy pack and all kinds of things. So he does not like to hike for fun. Now, he loves to be outdoors, right? So yes, we often will do something like just go out on a Forest Service road, and depending on the time of year, either build a fire if it's winter, or just kind of hang out. Yeah, in February. But like I said, we don't necessarily do this in February. Um, so, yeah, so I have, I will say that I've had a lot of people ask me, and I've even had a few people hire me to plan, um, a an engagement hike. So that's a little different. But yeah, so I think that hiking is a great date for people who both love hiking. And I will also say as a person who's been married for a long time, and I'm also professionally trained as a mental health professional that it's okay if your spouse and you don't but like you don't have you don't have to, like all the same things, of course, for a successful relationship, of course. So I think in general, I would say a hike is a great Valentine's Day activity, if that's something that you both enjoy Absolutely, yeah. And otherwise, it's not a great idea,

Craig Romano:

right? Exactly. And there's also, there's compromises too. You know, as much as I love the outdoors, Valentine's is in February. I don't want to camp for Valentine's Day, but I want to go hiking. But a lodge, a lodge is one, yeah. So and it's romantic, yeah, so it's a great idea. What are the things I think about making a romantic? And again, you know, it's funny, as I'm saying this, I'm realizing, because I've been with with Heather now for, oh boy, we're going on almost 30 years. We've been together, almost together. I've lost some my romantic because she's gonna say, used to always do that. You don't do this anymore. One of the things I used to do back in is we go cross country skiing or hiking, yeah, time and I would make us a hot drink on the trail, yeah, you know, so good job. Build on you carrying, carrying that little camp store. An amazing thing is, I was doing this 30 years ago with those big Coleman peak stoves are heavy. Now you got the little tiny pocket rockets, right?

Jennie Flaming:

Boils. My go to Yep. Chocolates,

Craig Romano:

of course, chocolates, you know? And in February, they're not going to melt

Jennie Flaming:

in your pack, right? Best thing about winter hiking is you can bring chocolate. Chocolates,

Craig Romano:

one of the things that I carry on all my backpacking trips, and certainly works on for for Valentine's Day, I have a platypus special wine, you know, bag, oh yes, you fill that up with red wine, yeah, and red wine. And my cousin

Jennie Flaming:

has one of those on trail. We we test drove her current husband by a backpacking trip. He carried our wine for three days. I forgot about that till just now. So, yeah, we accepted him, yeah, well, we had already accepted him anyway.

Craig Romano:

So these are, you know, if you're trying to, what about the the, you know, you're trying to set the mood of romance. Course, you know, I don't listen to music on the trail, but you may want to, you know, it's a good idea. You may want to tune your your your your AirPod to a little Barry, you know, Barry White or something in there. I don't know what, what's gonna set you in the mood, but what about the trail itself? It means Romania. It's winter. It's February. That can be again, I like. It's kind of the opera, opera hike type thing. You're out there and it's cold, and coming back to that fireplace, coming back to that, I think it's very romantic, you know. But if you're looking for, you know, a theme hiking, yeah? I mean, we have a lot of heart lakes in Washington, yeah.

Jennie Flaming:

I mean, yes, you could go to a lake that has a romantic name like that. I mean, I think it's more important to like, think about what type of trail your partner or your love interest is going to be into you, and asking that person you know so like, is it like if it's a sunny day, which, when we're recording this, we don't know, you know what great sunrise or sunset hike would be awesome, but maybe not. If it's going to be raining, then, like a forest or river, one is probably a better bet. If you want to do a snow adventure or not. You know, like you said before, Craig, it's a because it's February, we have the option of doing, here in Washington, of doing either wintry snow adventures or, well, it's still wintry if you're not in the snow. But like, you know, it could be like an island day trip or get away. I mean, honestly, just generic advice, I think a day trip to one of our islands, like Whidbey, or the San Vashon or Bainbridge, or one of the San Juans, depending on where you live, I think that either a day trip or a weekend trip to those places is awesome, because you can do a hike. You could do a forest hike or a view hike, depending on the weather. You don't have to deal with snow, and there's lots of great local restaurants that you can go to in muddy clothes, and, you know, or wineries or breweries or places like that, bakeries. So I think that makes for a really fun bakery. And that kind of day trip is is something that Jay and I would definitely do. I would probably be the only one, you know, most likely in that scenario for us, he would be sitting on a bench and drawing and hanging out with the dog, and I would be hiking, which is great, you know. But I also think the snow is great, but you've gotta, I don't. I feel like it makes a huge difference if you're early in a relationship with someone, versus if you've been married for decades,

Craig Romano:

so is the romance gone? Is that what? No,

Jennie Flaming:

I just think it's different, right? Like, I think this is maybe getting too philosophical, but we're talking about Valentine's Day Hikes, I think, like, if you've known someone for decades, then you you know a lot about them. You know, you know those little things, like Heather is gonna love pulling out the chocolate or whatever, early in a relationship when you're not that you aren't getting to know someone later. You know we still are. I know my my parents have been married for. 52 years, and my dad often says, like, oh, it's amazing what you can still learn about someone you've been married to for more than 50 years. But if it's earlier in a relationship, like, I can tell you one thing for me is, if I was gonna hike with someone, and this is true of anybody Don't you know anybody that I'm gonna hike with, if they're they wouldn't have to be a partner, or a potential partner, is like, I'm a slow hiker, and I don't do hurrying. So someone who's gonna make me feel bad about it, or, like, criticize how I'm doing it, I'm like, dude, unless you have been hiking for 45 years, like, I have, like, fall back, and even if I this was my first hike, it's like, when people have strong feelings about how to do hiking, it has to be fast, it has to be slow, it has to be climbing. We have to have a beer afterwards. We have anything like that that someone is inflexible about. I'm like,

Craig Romano:

it's funny. It's a big turn. You mentioned that, because I'm gonna open up a big can of worms here. Bring it. You go into the hiking in the running community, and you start seeing you older, get how many are single, and not necessarily they want to be single, and they can't understand why, because of being inflexible like that. You know, you know, we're only going to do things this way or that. Yeah, and I remember going back to our for our first hiking date and our second hike. And I had been hiking a lot longer. She was very knew it right. It was not my time to prove how much of a mountain man I was as far as running it tonight. You know, you still there I went. I hiked slow that day because, yeah, and, you know, you listen and you take into consideration, even though I might have gotten complacent with some of my surroundings, but I'm noticing things that she was struggling with, that I wouldn't even think about, and you have and again, it forces you to think outside of yourself again, which is a key a successful relationship is not just being centered on yourself. The more you're centered on yourself. I know a lot of us fall into this, and it's amazing. You know, you're gonna hate Valentine's Day. It's like, I would need somebody to come only run this pace with me and do this. And why they Yeah, good luck. Clone yourself. Okay? Because,

Jennie Flaming:

right? And I would question, like, you know, shared interests is not what makes a relationship last. In my opinion, shared

Craig Romano:

philosophy, it's good. Shared philosophy, absolutely good to have

Jennie Flaming:

some things that you like to do together. Of course, like it's important to spend time together, but I think this idea that, like, I need to be with another fast runner. That might be true, yeah, and that might not be true. And the other thing I would just mention, you know, having, you know, you and I have both been married for a long time, and, you know, I've had a lot of jobs where I worked with mostly people who were younger than me, and which is where the like, proposal stuff kind of comes in. But one of the things I think is really interesting is that if you're choosing this now again, we're talking about early in a dating relationship, that's a totally different story, right? But in a long term relationship, people change, and my spouse has a chronic illness, right? That isn't something that anybody planned for or expected, and I know you're familiar with that scenario also. So life throws us curve balls, and our person might not be a fast runner in a year or 25 years, and then what is that relationship based on? So I think kind of bringing this back to that, I think if you're introducing a partner or any person that you care about, whether it's a child or a friend or a spouse or a parent or a co worker, it's really important to help them have a good experience. And so if you're trying to combine that with your trail running training for your next 100k like, that's not super compatible with taking someone on their second date, or a six year old on their first hike. Or, you know, spending time with your parent, you know, right, like that. Just absolutely think you have to kind of separate Absolutely.

Craig Romano:

And the more more rigid you get more set in your ways. And it right, it can be difficult sometimes, right? Yeah. And then again, you know, as you get older, we tend to get more set in our ways too. Not everybody. Lots of people are flexibly learn, but yeah, those are all key. And as you say, life changes too. For me, the big thing is, just like, you have to have different interests, you know, I don't want to be, you know, in a relationship with my clone. I want to, but you have to share philosophies of life, yeah. And then you meet halfway. And one of the very interesting years ago, you know, Heather and I were. On a we were on a backpack, and we met this couple, and a wonderful couple, and they were older than us, and they've been together a lot longer, and she was, she was dealing with big backpackers, and she was going through cancer and dealing with them, and they always went together, and she couldn't do this trip. And she had hired so her husband, he hiked ahead. We met him up first incident Lake Augusta, out in the alpine lakes wilderness, and she had horse Packer take her up there. Oh, cool. And she was so embarrassed about that, because she's like, I always want to do on my own. And like, Are you kidding? You're out there. Don't be this isn't Yeah, you're finding, you find a way to make this work that you're still there. You guys can still have this amazing shared relationship. And they had a very solid relationship. And, you know, just for her, it was more she had to accept the word everyone like him, no big deal. He took a horse in. That's great, yeah. And so, yeah, working with so there's all kinds of ways, again as our life, our lives change, whether, if it's, you know, it's illness, health. I mean, I became a dad late in life again, all sudden, realize I'm not doing some of these hikes that I've never even wanted to do before, these short hikes, and I got a hike with my back and and my wife's constantly reminding me, you got a young kid with you. You can't be out here all day doing this stuff again. You have to make the adjustments. But you get a totally different payback. You know, these experiences that you're getting when you get out of yourself on this stuff so and

Jennie Flaming:

if I remember correctly, like back when I first met you, Craig, like six years ago, I think I remember you talking about how having your son kind of took you down a different professional path, where you ended up writing the urban hikes guides. And, I mean, you can explain that, but I remember you saying, like, I probably wouldn't have done that without him. It was,

Unknown:

it was perfect timing. It was amazing. My publisher even joked about it when I when I told her I was gonna be a dad at 53 and had the urban trails you planned that didn't you like. It was almost like I was joking with it, but it was like, You're planning to have the kid in there, because it got me to do stuff that had zero interest in doing, because I just wanted to be out in the back country doing this far. And now all sudden, I'm walking around Green Lake, you know, yeah, and noticing things that I never noticed after I ran it 1000 times. Yep, again, because kids are going to point out things. Again, we've talked about the ice of a child that we've become so numb to and get they are fascinated by a bug, a bug in the trail there. And you're, you know, just we're not seeing these things. And again, that's what's amazing. And works too introducing a new personal hiking, whether it's a romantic interest or something like that. So, you know, hiking is just, I mean, there's so many, it's wonderful on so many levels. And I think it's a wonderful activity to do for a date, and if you're using it for a first date, there's caveats too. I would go really easy on that. But again, I'd be curious to hear, I want to hear your stories out there. We do want to love at first hike, I mean, or if it wasn't, tell us what went wrong, would be interesting. We can learn from

Jennie Flaming:

that. I think one other thing that I would say about a date, like if, if the hike is a date in a relationship that's not solid, or you know that, like the relationship isn't at the stage where, like you're truly committed to each other, you're just kind of checking each other out. I think it's super important to pay attention to the other person's cues. And I think this is important. Hiking with any other person, that's

Craig Romano:

the perfect segue. Because yeah, so when we first met, the summer of hiking, everything's going well, I'm on my best behavior, trying to show all the right. And then she ended up, I was in graduate school. I had things I had to do. She went up backpacking with a couple of her friends in Europe. I hadn't Europe. I hadn't seen her for a couple months. Came back there, and we decided we hadn't. We've only been together six months, and I got out of graduate school, we were going to do a two month backpacking trip. Oh, wow, in South America, cool. And it's one of those things. You realize you're either going to come back hating each other, right? And that's the thing, because when you're in that kind of situation, you're vulnerable. Now, the thing is, when you're you're first dating, everything's perv, you've set the flowers and the candies and all that. But when life starts, when you're in your worst, when you're in Argentina, and you have dysentery, you're good side, you're in it. Now, yeah, your partner's going to see what you're really made up and literally, yeah, and that's what backpacking can do. When you're out there and it's pouring rain and you're confronted with, you know, the bad weather, that's because it's so easy for us to, you know, especially in the in the cyber world, I think that's why there's been this rejection. Fortunately, I am old enough, I didn't have to go through the swipe left. Swipe right? You know, everything I did was always meeting people the old fashioned way, right? But you can lie about so many things, you know? I can. I can make up an entirely different background. Yeah, in real life, when you're running with somebody and you're snot running down your nose, and you're cold and your dog, and you're gonna see what you're really made of, yeah? And I think that's solid, you know, you see what? If this is a potential partner, someone you want to spend time with. You want to see everything about them, not just when things are perfect. Yeah,

Jennie Flaming:

and I think a hiking date, whether it's your second date or you've been married for 47 years, I think it's an opportunity to tune in to the other person you know, pay attention to those the best

Craig Romano:

times when we can have conversations, because you're, first of all, you're on a trail, you're away from all the distractions. You're spending hours. And I have, I have so many friends that I go on long, long runs with, and they know everything about me. I mean, we can talk. We're comfortable. It's the same with your partner. You can go out and, matter of fact, in our day to day life, it's hectic. You're working with the kid. I find that when we finally are out for a run together on the trail, we finally we can talk without all those distractions. Yeah, and to me, it's very, very zen, too. We're just the motion your body relax. It frees the mind. You can say things where I have an easier time having a conversation on a 20 mile run, then, then sitting in a coffee shop sometimes, you know, because there's yeah so,

Jennie Flaming:

and I think there's also things like, um, checking in with the other person, like, hey, you know, it just started raining really hard. Um, you know, how are you feeling about that? Like, I think, I think about relationships. But also, just like you were saying, Craig, other people that I've gone on hiking or other types of adventures with, for me, it's a really important value to check in and be like, Okay, how are we doing? Like, okay, it's, um, it's one o'clock. It's gonna be dark in two and a half hours here, where we are in this dark forest, right? We've gone x distance. We're this far from the car, you know, like it gives you an opportunity to talk things through with another person. So Valentine's Day or not, relationship or not. And I think everyone knows I hike by myself a lot, and I know you do too. One of I think the biggest things that's lost with solo hiking is that opportunity to learn from and observe others, but also check in with them. It helps you check in with yourself. You know, if you're like, wow, I you know, okay, it's one o'clock, it's gonna be dark. I've been going for two hours. I really need to turn around now with someone else. You know, the the episode that Jay and I did about search and rescue, one of the things we talked about is how important it is to not let the group think kind of carry you along. But like in a relationship, that's an opportunity to build strength as a couple around, you know, making decisions based on the evidence that's there and based on the circumstances and and maybe you thought you would get to this point much faster, but one of you is just a little slower today than you normally are, or snow or mud, and it took longer, or it took longer to get all of your rain gear on, and you didn't account for that. So I think it's a great opportunity to build mutual respect and support. There's the romance side, but also just the strengthening of it as a relationship. I think hiking is a and anything in the outdoors is a great way to do that,

Unknown:

right? And with that said, that's so important, I know that all our listeners are just wonderful people. When they're they think outside themselves and others. You all are. But there's so many times on the trail, you know, my wife and I, or wherever I'm hiking with, I was like, That relationship's not gonna last. Where we

Jennie Flaming:

see, where you see, what are the things that clue you into that? Oh, one

Craig Romano:

is the pig headed. Usually, it's usually, not always the man, it's a pighead. He's like, we're doing this no matter what. And she's miserable. And you see it. And I have two cases I'll remember that very, very the one with my back country ranger in the White Mountain National Forest in New Hampshire, when we in the alpine zone, it was an electrical storm coming in. I was warning people, don't go up there and people die. We've had a lot of people die, and here comes this macho guy. We are determined to go here. And I said, you know, there's lightning and thunder, and his wife or his girlfriend, I'm not sure, at the time, she's listening to and he's angry at me, it's dangerous. And she's like, we're going and thinking it would be amazing if they stay together.

Jennie Flaming:

Yeah, the other was pilot rape. I don't want her to stay with him. I would hope she did. You know, I'm curious, if you're I know it's been a long time since you were a ranger. You know, you and I are both in relationships. We're neither of us are in same sex marriages. We're both married to someone of the opposite sex. But I mean, I've observed both, just anecdotally, on the trail, but also working as a guide, that same sex couples. Of course, this isn't always true, but I've noticed that that dynamic that you were describing doesn't seem to be there as much between two women or between two men. I don't know if you I'm one of those people who's always tuning into the people.

Craig Romano:

When I was a guide, I had, I've had clients in same sex relationships, and it's interesting. I i Nothing's popping up, but I didn't really observe that. That's an interesting observation, yeah, because almost all cases it was the macho guy, yeah, we are going to do this no matter what. And the woman he was with was hesitant for whatever reason, or just not enjoying herself. I mean, another case was, we're in pilot ridge. We were coming same type of thing. Was just we felt so sorry for for her, not him as a jerk. Um, we were coming down the ridge. My wife and I'm back real brutal, brutal backpacking. They were coming up. There's no water, there's no he's asking any place to camp up there and like, no, you've got miles, where you the lake and it's gonna be dark, you're not gonna go. She was carrying her sleeping bag. It fell off. Her pack didn't even stop to and she was miserable. And we're trying, I mean, I'm thinking, There's no way this relationship is gonna because you're not in tune. And that's what you mentioned earlier, Jennie, one of the things when you're in you're open. There's times I thought we need to forge and go forward where my wife would say something maybe, and you sit there and listen like, yeah, you're right. That doesn't sound, you know, having that and taking her needs, which were interesting, but her needs were definitely in my best interest as well. You know, not just keep relationship together, but also just to keep to stay alive, right? Just because you're not thinking about these things sometimes, and we need to talk about that on search and rescue that we always hear about. You know, the ill prepared getting hurt, but a lot of people like me get into trouble too, because we become overconfident, yeah, because we've done it all the time before. Yeah, so that's an issue. That's a different episode. But yeah, the religion. Mean, that's part of I can't understand, you know, you have this agenda, how that's going to benefit the relationship. But then again, if these people are an unequal relationship, yeah, then it's always been that way.

Jennie Flaming:

Yeah. I feel like I noticed that too on the trail where I'm like this, this is just not going to work out. And I do think one dynamic that's changing is more women are hiking, oh, right, alone and without guys. In the past, a lot more women that were kind of like going along with the dudes thing. And I think, I mean, I'm a woman hiker, so maybe that's why I feel this way. But I do feel like women and solo women and groups of women are much more common for me to see on the trail than when I was in high school. Huge change I've seen over the years. Yeah, you know, and I'm, I'm 49 so I think that is really good overall. And of course, women can also I've experienced women who do these same things, of course, but I do think what you're saying is like, if you're a man and in a straight man, dating women or married to women, maybe just use a Little extra caution around your behavior. I think when I observe this kind of thing on the trail, one thing that clues me in to this doesn't feel great is any kind of making fun of any kind of a vulnerability, right like or any kind of, I want to say, derision, which sounds like a very strong word, but even when you're even when it's not as extreme what you don't

Craig Romano:

want to do with your children as well, and you see that,

Jennie Flaming:

yeah, just just that kind of like tone that's like, I know better than you. I'm better at this than you. That just really is like, girlfriend, get out of this village. Oh,

Craig Romano:

absolutely. And almost every one of these cases, it's like, you have no idea what you're talking about, dude. You know you're you're a jerk. But unfortunately, we are not certified marriage counselors here behind it, but

Jennie Flaming:

I'm a certified school counselor, but most high school students are not married, and

Craig Romano:

I think we've got, we've gone way down the trail on this. It's a good job. It is a good really, be interested in hearing from you out there is, you know, I know, again, like running is one of the, one of the big ways to meet people now, for, you know, for relationships, what do you think is, how. Hiking same. I know that a very good friend of mine is in a marriage now, after many, many years of being single, met through through hiking. You know, through the Mountaineers organization is definitely romance in the area, for sure. So we want to hear, I mean, you know the hills alive with the with the sound of love. You know we want to know we do. And

Jennie Flaming:

before we wrap up, I want to just say Craig and I are trying to be better about mentioning these things during the episodes, instead of getting excited, talking and forgetting. But in our show notes, below the tip jar, below where you can send us a text to tell us your story, below all that, there's an a link there, if you're planning a romantic getaway with your person or for yourself to get away from Valentine's Day, you do you, if you follow that link, say to to Expedia, which is a place a lot of people book stuff. We will get a commission on that. So that's a way that, without spending any extra money, we can you can support the podcast so I can buy my wife chocolate, that's right, and that will provide chocolate for Heather and camp chairs for Jay. We'll have it covered. Um, well, Happy Valentine's Day everybody. Thanks for sticking with this through with us through this relationship episode, and we'll see you next time you.

People on this episode

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Jennie Thwing Flaming

Host
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Craig Romano

Co-host