The Washington State Hiking Podcast

Spring (and winter) Avalanche Safety with the Northwest Avalanche Center

• Jennie Thwing Flaming and Craig Romano • Episode 54

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Jennie Flaming:

Welcome to the Washington State hiking podcast. I'm your host. Jennie Thwing Flaming, and I'm your co host. Craig Romano, Craig and I are happy to have you here. We provide practical and timely, seasonal hiking advice for hikers, trail runners and potential hikers and trail runners of all skill and ability levels that is helpful, accurate, fun and inclusive. My guest today is Devon Schoos from the northwest avalanche center. And in case you're thinking, why are we talking about avalanches? Jennie, it's just about spring. Well, the reason is that avalanche safety is super important for hikers in winter and in spring. So Devon is here to talk more about that with us and what the Northwest avalanche Center has to offer. Devon, thank you so much for being here and joining us today. Yeah, it's my pleasure. Jennie, I really appreciate, appreciate being on thanks for having me. Yeah. So before we dive into, like, some of the things that hikers really need to be aware of relative to avalanches and how you all can help, can you talk just a little bit about what the Northwest avalanche center is and the type of work that you do?

Devon:

Yeah, I'd be happy to so the Northwest avalanche Center, which we often refer to as nwac, we are the regional avalanche forecasting center for the Northwest. So there are 22 regional forecasting centers across the United States, and we're part of that network, and we exist here in the Northwest. So the area that we service is going to be the Washington Cascades from north to south through the state, and then the Washington Olympic Mountains. And then also included in our region is Mount Hood in northern Oregon. So our mission as an organization is to increase avalanche awareness, reduce avalanche impacts, and equip the community with mountain weather and Avalanche forecasts, education and data. That's like word for word, what our mission is. But what I like to kind of talk about, of what we do is in those, like three buckets of, kind of these three main services that provide so first, and I'm happy to, you know, talk more about each of these, but it's kind of the broad overview that first service that we provide is going to be forecasts. So this includes both avalanche forecasts as well as mountain weather forecasts. So I mentioned kind of that whole region that we serve, which, as you imagine, is a pretty big area. So we actually divide that up into 10 zones, and for every zone we produce a daily avalanche forecast. Bit of a caveat there for the Olympics, since you can only access that road on the weekends, we only produce that forecast on the weekends. That makes sense other Yeah, for the other nine zones, it's daily avalanche forecast and then a twice daily mountain weather forecast for each zone. The second kind of service that we provide is weather data. So where forecasts right? It's it's looking forward what we expect to happen with avalanches and with the weather the data is actually looking backwards at what did happen. So we maintain, actually, the largest network of remote weather stations in the US. We have 50 of these mountain weather stations that are collecting data. And you can access those data tables on our website, so you can see, you know, how much it snowed or how windy it was, and when these different weather events happened. So you can kind of start to put a picture together of what's going on with the snow pack in terms of avalanches. And then the third, like, kind of buckets of services that we provide is education, and that is really kind of where I live in the organization, just within our education and outreach programs. So it's we do a number of different programs, and kind of, you know, try to reach a wide variety of people. So it's everything from the person who's just getting into winter back country recreation and takes a hour and a half avalanche awareness class at their local Rei that's put on by nwac, all the way to providing continuing education workshops for folks who have been recreating in the winterback country for many, many, many years, and also doing some. workshops and events for professional avalanche workers as well. Yeah, that's wonderful. I want to mention that you can support the Northwest avalanche center by becoming a member like I am, and I've really appreciated not only the forecasts for avalanches, but also the weather forecast. And I did a series of classes with you too, and that was super helpful for me. So I just want to encourage everyone listening to check that out in the show notes and consider joining as well.

Jennie Flaming:

I should mention, before we go any further, that interacting with snow and avalanches is optional. You can totally stick with hikes and trails that don't have snow, if this is something you don't want to worry about. And next week's episode will be all about spring hikes without snow. So if you do ever interact with snow, do snowy hikes in the winter of spring. This episode is for you, but don't worry dealing with avalanches and thinking about avalanche safety is optional if you stay away from snow. So Devon tell everybody, why should hikers care about avalanches? Why is that important?

Devon:

Yeah, thanks for asking. Jennie, hikers should care about avalanche safety, because anyone who is recreating in snowy mountains should care about avalanche safety. And hikers, I think, are a you an interesting user group. We use that term user group to talk about like hikers versus skiers versus snowmobilers, right? Kind of the type of the way you're engaging with back country recreation, and I think that a lot of hikers maybe start out hiking in the summer. And I really enjoy hiking. Love to hike in the summer. And you know, you're out there moving your body and enjoying the natural world. And it is makes a lot of sense that in the winter, that doesn't just stop, folks still want to get out and they want to move their bodies and they want to enjoy the natural world, but there's a element now of snow in the mountains, yes, and yeah, it's important to recognize that, you know, that really changes. We have this whole new risk factor that we're now dealing with when there's no snow. We're not worried about avalanches when there is snow. We now have a new risk that needs to be on our radar, and so shifting our mindsets in the winter, time or anytime there's snow in the mountains, to be like, Hey, this is a new risk. I'm used to managing all kinds of different risk right, risk of getting lost, risk of getting injured. And we have ways that we manage our risk and reduce our risk with those things as hikers, and it's now adding this kind of new risk to our kind of mind map of risks here, and making a plan of how we're going to reduce that risk.

Jennie Flaming:

Yeah, I'll also make sure to put nwacs website in the show notes, so that's where you can get all this great information, as well as become a member if you want to. So Devin, can you tell us a little bit about some of the things hikers need to really be aware of related to avalanches in the spring?

Devon:

Yeah, absolutely. And it's a great question. So in the spring, as kind of our snow pack, which is the term we use to talk about all the snow from the ground up that has been laid down throughout storms, during the winter and different weather events. So our snow pack, as that shifts towards a more spring like snow pack, there are, yeah, different things we might consider regarding avalanches. So time and weather is what creates our avalanche problems, and we're dealing with typically, some different weather in the springtime than perhaps in the middle of winter. Generally, we're not having these wintertime storms, right, like we experience in January and February and even March. We have some snow coming in this week, which is great, so we start to get less of that storm activity. And what we get more of, really, is sun, right? We have higher temperatures, we have longer days, and the sun is sitting higher in the sky, so problems that we really expect to see a lot more of in the springtime are what we call like wet avalanche problems, and they're caused because of that warming, those higher temperatures and that radiation from the sun. So we want to be really aware of our timing. Right? And aspect I say, those are, like our two best friends in the spring, yeah, yeah, like with timing, right? What we're worried about with with avalanches, is these wet avalanches, the snow pack getting wet and sliding. And so we can start our day earlier and end our day earlier to try to avoid when those slopes are going to be at their kind of soggiest, right? Yep. So yeah, encouraging folks that hey, like you want to go on a hike and there's still snow on the trails, just plan for that to be a morning hike. Plan to be out of the mountains before that heat of the day.Another way that you can manage that is through aspect. So when I say aspect, I'm talking about like a compass rose right, like North sides of a mountain, west sides of a mountain. And when we when we talk about aspect, it's the way that slope is facing. So if we talk about like a South aspect, it's a slope that faces to the south. And with this, we can kind of like chart the path of the sun right. The sun rises in East, sets in the west. So we can pick hikes that maybe start, if we're looking for like a loop type hike, is there something that maybe we start on, like an easterly aspect or a southerly aspect and we end on a northerly or westerly aspect that We're not putting ourselves in the most in the slopes that get the most sun in that middle of the day time.

Jennie Flaming:

Yep, yep, yeah. That's really, that's really good advice. And I think something people don't always think about is how that changes from like being storm related to just being like, not that you can't have storm related avalanches in the spring, but there's this sort of ongoing challenge with the sogginess of the snow throughout the day.

Devon:

Yeah, exactly. And I think you made a really good point there, right? It's like, I don't want to over simplify it and give people the impression that it's like we have these types of avalanches in the winter and these types of avalanches in the spring, like we can, you know, have a surprise storm in the spring and be, be concerned about more storm related avalanche problems. But these are general, like, patterns of just how, how are how our snow pack behaves and changes with this change of season?

Jennie Flaming:

Yeah. And, you know, I'm glad you talked about the different directions too, because one thing that happens a lot in the spring, even for me and I have hiked in, you know, so many miles of so many trails in Washington all times of year is you really can be surprised by snow. You know, it's like a warm day in May, and you get up close to an alpine lake, and then all of a sudden there's snow. And that can be a real surprise, and a big difference from summer. So Devon, one thing I wanted to ask you a little bit about is the difference between, like, a good summer hiking trail and one that's good for spring or winter, right, when it's still snow covered, because that, you know, sometimes people are like, Oh, well, I'll just put on my snow boots. And this hike that I love in summer, like I'm thinking about the snow Lake Trail, for example, super popular summer hike, really, quite a dangerous winter and spring hike. Can you talk a little bit about how someone could evaluate if that beloved summer hike is a good choice for spring or winter?

Devon:

Yeah, I absolutely can. I'm really glad you asked that. I think this kind of like, I think this is a really important question, because you're right. Many popular summer trails make very poor and potentially very dangerous winter trails, and that all has to do with terrain and slope angle. So very generally speaking, avalanches happen on slopes greater than 30 degrees of steepness. So that 30 degrees is a slope angle less than that is just not quite steep enough to slide for that snow to get moving. And when we think about a summer trail, generally, you know, in the summer again, we don't have snow in that area. And those trails are made to be efficient, right, to access where you're trying to go the most efficient way. And oftentimes, as we know here in the Cascades. That's switchbacks across a steep open slope which we have on that snow Lake Trail, for example, fantastic example. So that works great for summer hiking. You get to your point quickly and efficiently. But when we have snow on the ground in the winter and spring now, that trail is actually in potentially the worst place that we could put ourselves in that terrain, because now we're in that steep, open slope, that slope greater than 30 degrees for an extended period of time walking. So we're putting ourselves in the place that the avalanches are most likely to happen, or are the place that avalanches can happen? Yeah. So I think this really points to the idea of as hikers, we can adopt an avoidance mindset. So we can decide, actually, that we don't want to engage with avalanches. We don't ever want to be at risk of avalanches. And we can do that by avoiding the places that avalanches happen. It doesn't mean we can't go into the mountains. It means when we pick our route, we need to stay away from slopes greater than 30 degrees, yeah, and always be aware of what's above us, right? If we're crossing something and we're like, oh, this is a low angle slope, but it's right below a steeper slope, yeah, be in the area that that avalanche would slide. So what I'd, I would suggest folks do is start getting comfortable with, like, reading maps so you can, you know, use topo lines to identify steepness and see like, Oh, this looks like a really steep area that this trail winds through. This is not a good winter or spring trail, like the snow Lake Trail. Folks that have experience using digital mapping, like Cal Topo or Gaia, which I think is, you know, all becoming more popular. For folks, you can actually turn on what's called slope angle shading that puts color on the map and tells you how steep those slopes are. Really a neat feature. And I am, like, not very technologically advanced, and I promise you, it is easy to figure out Google slope angle shading for whatever your digital map of choice is, and that can you can see that on your phone. So if you're in the mountains in real time and you're like, how steep of a slope Am I on, you can see that on a map, you know, there is obviously a margin for air. We want to give that that those aren't like, exact, precise numbers, just in terms of the resolution. So we want to give it a margin for air, but yeah, all of that to say we can pick trails that we want to hike, that are going to be in lower, not on or below, steep slopes. And also, speaking to I know in the summer, we're very used to this idea of not hiking off trail, which is fantastic that we've been educated that way. If there is snow on the ground in the winter, based on LNT principles, that's a durable surface. So if we want to take a different route to avoid a steep part of a summer trail and pick safer terrain for avalanches, we can go off trail on the snow, traveling on that durable surface, yeah, yeah, that's great.

Jennie Flaming:

If you're in your head, you're going on like, a warm spring day hike, and then all of a sudden there's snow around. What advice do you have relative to, like, avalanches and safety? If someone encounters that and they're surprised,

Devon:

yeah, great question. I would say, you know, if you're not expecting that and you encounter snow all of a sudden, you need to put that, that risk of avalanches back on your radar, right? Yeah. And so I would recommend my biggest advice is in the springtime, when you're still unsure of where snow is going to be held in the mountains. And like you said, it can kind of surprise you sometimes. I recommend checking the forecast every day, even if you're not expecting to encounter snow, so that if you do encounter snow, you've read that information, and you're armed with that information to make, to make a decision, yeah, your safety, definitely. I'd also recommend checking out. I mean, I always recommend this, but the Washington Trails Association trip reports are another great resource for like, if someone hiked the trail you want to hike yesterday and they encountered snow, there's a good chance you will also see snow today. So if they're recent, recent trip reports, that can really that can also be a great way to get some information, too. Yeah, super smart idea. Yeah.

Jennie Flaming:

so Devin, I would love to know, you know, based on the work that you all do, what are some some kind of popular trails in either the Cascades or the Olympics, and either specific trails or types of trails where people really need to be extra careful about late season snow and avalanches. Is that something you could share a little bit about?

Devon:

I think I could say, like, generally, you know, places with higher elevations, right? Yep. So places like the North Cascades, or, like very much, the North Cascades, even like the Mount Baker highway. Few things to like keep in mind, right is higher elevations are going to hold snow longer as we start to melt out, down low and still hold snow up high. Places with alpine lakes, just that, really, that cool air from the lakes, they're going to hold snow, maybe around those lakes for longer than other places. Yeah, yeah. And, you know, North aspects, which get the least kind of amount of sun. So these shady aspects are also going to hold snow later in the season, rather than solar aspects. So those are some things to keep in mind. But that being said, of like, places you might expect to see snow even later than maybe you were expecting, yeah, kind of just entering the spring here, and we're still really kind of in a transition right, of like moving from winter into spring, I would very much just be cautious of really, all trails at this time and expect snow if you're near any of the mountain passes. Yep, absolutely yes. And of course, like, like you were just saying, that changes rapidly throughout the spring, right? Like, the first week of April is going to be a totally different scenario than the last week of April. And then we've got some of these places that have snow, you know, into June and even July. So, yeah, awesome.

Jennie Flaming:

Well, is there anything else Devon that you

Devon:

Jennie, I'd love to just give people some kind of want folks to know, either about nwac or avalanche safety, or resources. If this has piqued your interest, um, be great, yeah, leaving folks with a little bit of some some ideas of where, where they might go for more education or information. If that's all right with you, yeah, bring it on. Great. Yeah, this is kind of education. Is my jam again. I mentioned this kind spring hiking, anything like that, yeah? of at the beginning of the podcast, but we do offer free avalanche awareness classes all over our forecast region. So we offer about 150 of them every season. We're kind of wrapping up our season. We do have classes that go through the month of March, um, and then they kind of start up again, usually in November. Occasionally we'll have some in October. But these are just, they're 90 minute classes. You there's in person, ones all over at local retailers, or put on by local organizations host them. They're all taught by nwac instructors, and then we also offer virtual ones to make this as accessible as possible for as many people as possible. So even if you're listening to this from outside of Washington, you could attend a virtual avalanche awareness class. Yeah, I'm always surprised. Sometimes we'll get folks on those virtual calls from all over. We've had people from a number of other states join, which is, which is really awesome, and we're happy to be able to provide that. So, yeah, that's a really great first step of just learning the basics of avalanche safety, as well as how to read nwac read and interpret nwacs forecast. Um, it's also, if you've maybe had some avalanche training in the past, but it's been a while. It's a really nice refresher as well. So that's one thing that I would encourage people to look into. Jennie, you mentioned what I think maybe we're referring to our Laying track series. It's a four part webinar series in the winter. It's in January that kind of does a deeper dive into four different topics related to avalanches. So for example, we might do one that's all about weather and how weather influences the snow pack and Avalanche problems. So that's a really great opportunity as well. In the fall, we have a workshop called the Northwest snow and Avalanche workshop, and saw which it has a bunch of different talks from a bunch of different folks that work in the avalanche industry. That's usually held in the Seattle area. We've had it at Cascadia College in Bothell the last few years. But really recommend that as well for folks. And then lastly, actually have two things. One, that's great. This is great. One, I'll say, just our website, which Jennie, I think you mentioned, you'll link in the show notes. But just looking around at our website, including just starting to read the forecast, even if you're not planning on going out hiking that day, I think the more folks read the forecast, you're just going to kind of start to learn and put some things together. And then also, if you do then go on to take avalanche training, you'll kind of know what questions you have, right? Like, hey, this don't really understand what the likelihood scale is. How do you know how likely or unlikely an avalanche is? And you're armed with kind of some some questions to go into a course with which does lead me to the formal avalanche training courses, which would be like an avalanche level one or an avalanche level two course, where you actually get to do some classroom learning, but go out in the field with avalanche instructors and actually go look at the snow and identify avalanche terrain in the field. Those courses are generally two field days and some classroom time. So that's definitely a pathway as well for folks that are doing a lot of recreation in the snow. Yeah? And if anyone yeah has any questions, nwac is meant to be a resource for the public. That's why we do what we do. And we get all kinds of emails all the time, and we are in boxes are always open. So if folks have questions or want more information, I would just always direct you back to our website, and you can always email info@nwac.us if you have a question that you'd like us to answer. I love that. And you know, I was thinking about what you were saying about, like, the forecast and things before I did the lane tracks class, I was like, aware that your mountain weather forecast had a lot of great information, but I honestly couldn't. I knew I wasn't taking full advantage of it, because I was like, I don't even know what some of these things are, and so that that might have been the most helpful thing for me. Um, because I'm personally kind of, I don't like to take risks with avalanches, but I do, I still think it's really important knowledge and the weather part is important, no matter what you know. So yeah, absolutely. And I agree with you. I think it's, it's one of our more underutilized services. So yeah, yeah, it's really great. Yeah, that's really great to hear wonderful.

Jennie Flaming:

Well, Devon, thank you so much for joining me today and sharing all these awesome resources about avalanche safety with everybody.

Devon:

My pleasure, Jennie, thanks for having me. Stay safe out there everyone, and I hope you all have a wonderful spring season.

Jennie Flaming:

Hi everyone, Jennie, here. I hope you enjoyed this episode of The Washington State hiking podcast, Craig and I would love to have your help with leaving us a reading or a review that helps other people find us and helps the podcast grow. There's some other ways you can support us as well, by purchasing Craig's guidebooks or getting onto my weekly email list with hiking ideas all over Washington that are perfect for that time of year. And in addition to that, we also have a tip jar if you just want to leave us some cash to help keep us going. And finally, if you are making a purchase, either at REI or for travel on Expedia, in the show notes, we have an affiliate link for each of those, and that means if you use that link to book or purchase, that we receive a small commission. So we really appreciate your support. Thank you so much and see you next week. You

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Jennie Thwing Flaming

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Craig Romano

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