The Washington State Hiking Podcast

Hiking in Southwestern British Columbia with Taryn Eyton

• Jennie Thwing Flaming and Craig Romano • Episode 64

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Jennie Flaming:

Jennie, welcome to the Washington State hiking podcast. I'm your host. Jennie Thwing Flaming,

Craig Romano:

and I'm your co host. Craig Romano, Craig

Jennie Flaming:

and I are happy to have you here. We provide practical and timely, seasonal hiking advice for hikers, trail runners and potential hikers and trail runners of all skill and ability levels that is helpful, accurate, fun and inclusive. Hi everybody. Today, Craig and I have Taryn Eaton with us. She is also a guidebook author. She's written several books about backpacking in British Columbia. And we're going to talk a little bit about a variety of things related to hiking today, and including some of her favorite hikes that are kind of in our sort of area, close to Washington. So Taryn, welcome to the Washington State hiking podcast. Thank you for

Taryn:

being here. Yeah, thanks for having me. So

Jennie Flaming:

to start us off, can you just introduce yourself to everybody, let us know who you are, a little bit about your business and your website and your writing and how you came into this type of work. Sure.

Unknown:

Yeah. So my name is Taryn. I live in Squamish, BC, which is in between Vancouver and Whistler, if you don't know it. I grew up in Vancouver, and I've been hiking my whole life and backpacking for, I guess, a little over 20 years now. About 10 or so years ago, I started a little website called happiest outdoors.ca to document my adventures, and over the years, it grew into less of a travel diary and more into a resource for other hikers to kind of replicate the adventures I was having. And then in 2021 my first guidebook was published backpacking in southwestern BC, which covers the area near Vancouver. And then last year, in 2024, my second guidebook was published, which was backpacking on Vancouver Island. And they've both, they've both done really well, which honestly is a bit of a surprise to me. I wasn't sure how much of a market there'd be for books that are about like overnight and multi day adventures, but people seem really excited about them, which I'm really pleased to see.

Craig Romano:

That's awesome. And I have your second book, Taryn, as you know, and I used it last summer, and it is fantastic. So I will have no problem plugging that today to tell, to tell our audience out here if they're planning on spending any time on Vancouver Island, the book is a must. And even though I know in my review, it's called backpacking, it definitely can be used as a day hiking guide too. So great, great guide to the island. Yeah,

Taryn:

that's a good point, that both of the books are are backpacking books. The Island book has some day hikes in it, but both books you could use for day hikes, because some of the backpacking trips are quite short, so they're beginner trips for backpackers, but that would make them good day hikes,

Jennie Flaming:

totally. And I will add to that for folks listening that your website, which will put links to both your website and your books in the show notes. But the your website is an awesome resource for especially for BC hiking too. So I keep it, yeah, so you know, today we're talking about, you know, a little bit about BC, but also about some other bigger issues that impact all of us as hikers on both sides of the border and in other states as well. Craig, since this is something that you've dealt with quite a bit as well, I'm gonna let you take the lead in talking about gatekeeping. And

Craig Romano:

I know Taryn and I, we've talked about this in the past, about, I know we both have been, have have dealt with disgruntled people to say about, about gatekeeping, and it's an interesting topic, because it kind of at the same time we're trying to promote use, to get people to get out and enjoy our natural resources and to be good stewards of the land. And at the same token, we're watching unprecedented use. And this is true both in British Columbia and Washington, actually, throughout both nations as well. So Taryn, yeah, definitely. I know the Lower Mainland, in particular. I know where you are, near garibaldi, and I mean, the use is going record number of people hitting the trails. Are you seeing a lot of gatekeepers and people that are upset of what you're doing and if they're trying to keep their secrets? And if so, how do you address those people?

Taryn:

Yeah, I think that it's really interesting to balance. As you said. The, you know, getting people outdoors and, you know, protecting these wild places that we love. And I think that's something that's really important to remember when we have this conversation, is that one of the the real problems of, you know, like overcrowding on trails and increased people on trails, is that what we need to do is shift some of those people onto other trails, right? So I'm sure, you know, I know in the Seattle area there's a few, like, super popular trails that everybody knows about, and the same thing for Vancouver. So, you know, we need to tell people about there are other trails. You could use them. They might have a different view than the one you've seen on Instagram, but you might also appreciate that view. So, you know what? We're taking people off of, you know, these really popular trails, and directing them to less popular trails. The people who were already on those less popular trails get upset because they now have a different experience. Yes. So, you know, I think that that that's definitely part of it, and that's that's really important to recognize that, you know, the nature belongs to everyone, and because, just because you've been having a particular experience on a less popular trail for some period of time does not mean that you are entitled or guaranteed that experience in perpetuity. So I think that's, you know, like, that's really important to note. The other thing that I think comes up a lot when we talk about gatekeeping is, you know, people say, Oh, I found this place because I looked on maps, or I explored, or I was shown to me by someone local, or someone who, you know, has used This place for generations. Therefore it is somehow mine. This is special. This is not for you. And I think that I definitely understand that sentiment when people are coming from that they feel like they worked hard or they have a legacy associated with the place. But the reality is that that's it can be that can be really problematic, right? Because that, in really is tied to a lot of issues around privilege. And you know, if we think about the tradition little base of the outdoor recreation community, you know, we're white and affluent and male, and if we're saying that we're not going to share our places, that's really going to keep the community in that same place. And you know, everybody needs to start somewhere. Everyone is new to somewhere, to some place. And so by sharing information about places where we're widening the scope of who's welcome in the outdoors,

Craig Romano:

yeah, absolutely. And what I'm finding in particular is, and I had an incident this fall with the Met, how Valley just nasty, nasty, nasty, nasty, the attack just like you. And I'm trying to get people to use other trails, and I had all these people attack me. And what's interesting, you know, I did some sleuthing and found in almost all cases of the people that were attacking me, we're all transplants to the region. They didn't even grow up there, so they couldn't even pull that. You know, I've been here generations. Blah, blah, blah, which, again, is worthless because we're talking about public lands that, and especially this in the US. In this case, it was a national forest. That means, I don't care if you're from Florida, Puerto Rico, New Jersey, California, it's your land. These people who live there don't have any more right to have that land. So there's this incredible provincialism and elitism that that is taking place in some of these places, not all places. And so, yeah, it's incredible. And and then, you know, again, trying to address people about that, about sharing, and they don't even realize, sometimes they'll wrap it up in environmentalism that they want to protect, but you realize they're doing all these things out there, and it really isn't. And if you're that concerned, are you involved in a lot of these organizations? Because I know you do as well as I we try to get people to to to give back to to belong to organizations and to work to protect these lands. So how many of these gatekeepers? It's just they want their own little private retreat there. So

Taryn:

I think you touched on a really important point there, around how gatekeeping and environmentalism gets tied up. So I've definitely seen a lot of arguments, especially on social media recently, about how you know, really, you know, like, well minded people will point out to influencers when they are sharing the location of somewhere that's very environmentally sensitive, and say, you know, like, please don't share this information. Or if you're going to share information about this environmentally sensitive place, please include information about how to respect it and how to preserve it. And the people who've shared the information in the first place are saying like, I don't stand for gatekeepers. Don't tell me what I can and can't share. This place belongs to everyone. And I think that that's really interesting and nuanced line to walk. Yeah, and I so I think that definitely, on the one hand, if you're going to share about a place, any place, whether it's environmentally sensitive or not, you should be sharing information about how to respect it. You know, how to preserve it, and how to respect the people who were there before you, whether those are indigenous people or local people. You know, Trailhead parking is an issue, but you should also look at the context of the place that you're sharing. So you know, if the you know we're talking about public lands, if the land manager, public land manager, has a policy about that place, then I think that we should follow it right. If they're asking people not to publicize it because it contains something very environmentally sensitive or contains like archeological things that are archeologically significant, then I think we shouldn't share it. But if the public body that's in charge of that land doesn't have a policy around it and isn't developing one that says people should stay away, then I think as long as you're sharing information responsibly, then it's, it's fair game, the idea that we should, you know, we should not share things, you know, like, I don't think that I am the arbiter of what is and isn't a safe place to share. I think that the land manager of that body is the one that is the arbiter of that? Yeah,

Craig Romano:

I agree. And in many cases, especially in the US, and it's gonna even get worse now is that our lead agencies are just there's they're being eviscerated, as far as their staff and their budget, and in many cases now it's up to people like you and me to to make sure if we are going to share these places, that we absolutely talk about the regulations and the sensitivities. And so even as someone who writes books and works on the web and tries to get people out, this is where I take issue with influencers and a lot where I see photos being shared, it's just, it's a free for all of people saying, Go out and do this without saying, hey, you know, there's archeological or cultural issues. Your dog isn't allowed. All these things that are not being shared, and that's where we're creating a lot of problems. So people are just showing up from that photo, and it's creating all kinds of issues. And then, of course, I know we've talked about this in the past, too, and this is definitely an issue. Yeah, you know, it always cracks me up in these areas. I I've been here for three generations, and I've, you know, what? About the indigenous people have been here since the beginning. None of this three generation stuff, that's a crock. And I'm willing to believe, maybe, prove me wrong, that many of these people are pushing back on the gatekeeper and pulling that. You know, I've lived here my entire life. You're not. How sensitive are you to, you know, indigenous issues? Are you allowing, are you allowing traditional uses of the land, or is it just your little background to go cross country skiing or or mountain climbing? So, yeah, you know, I know you're involved in a lot of especially, you know, my, my newest book coming out is on British Columbia, so I've been trying to stay in tune with all the reconciliation that's going on. You guys are light years ahead of us. And again, I think in our current administration here, you will continue to be light years ahead of us on that issue. It's kind of share that with some of our listeners about what's going on with British Columbia and public lands and indigenous rights and reconciliation and CO managing, and take it from there. I may just break

Jennie Flaming:

in and say that was a very nice segue. Craig, well

Taryn:

done. Thank you. Yeah. So if you're not familiar with the sort of situation in BC, you know, like most of Canada, when it was settled by Europeans, had treaties signed between indigenous people and the colonial government, or later the Canadian government. And you know, the fairness of those treaties, of course, is definitely suspect. But here in BC, especially in western BC and coastal BC, we don't have treaties. They gave up and decided that they had one, which was, you know, not in line with international law. So, so the treaty negotiation kind of continues in BC, you know that we have, like Washington, a huge number of different indigenous groups in BC, you know, like, because of the terrain and the sort of ecosystems here, they're like, some of them are quite small. So it's a lot of different nations to manage and and work with. And our government here, for the most part, is working with these nations on a government to government relationship, and British Columbians in general. But of course, not all are fairly on board with the idea that indigenous people deserve respect and. Acknowledgement, and that the treatment of them here was was not appropriate. How we go forward is something that almost no one agrees on. But the way that it's affecting the way that it's affecting outdoor recreation, is fairly interesting. So, you know, on a on a basic level, a lot of people are beginning to recognize and acknowledge the lands in which they travel on. They're starting to accept and welcome indigenous place names being restored. There's places where indigenous groups are co managing back country or and, and, you know, provincial parks. And one of the like, more interesting things that I'm kind of involved with, because I do a lot of outdoor advocacy work, both with friends of garibaldi Park society and the umbrella organization, the Federation of mountain clubs of BC, is that all of our provincial parks, which are basically like state parks, are, you know, they have management management plans about what should be happening in the park, what the policies are around development and recreation and hunting and wildlife protection. And most of those management plans are very out of date. And in order to update the management plans, the that requires under the current framework, the provincial government to negotiate with the indigenous nation whose land that's on. So while we really welcome reconciliation and want indigenous people to have more of a role in what's happening on their land. It's also really hamstrung our provincial parks to modernize and develop more trails, develop more campgrounds, because they're stuck in a consultation process with the government and indigenous peoples and indigenous peoples in BC, like many in North America, are busy worrying about getting clean drinking water and secure housing for their people, and they're really less interested in spending time negotiating on park management plans unless there's an economic benefit for them. And of course, right, I don't blame them. That's what needs to be their priority. So it's an interesting political situation here, for sure.

Craig Romano:

If you, and again, to a lot of our American listeners here, which are the majority, if you go on to the BC parks website and click on December, you're going to see, in most cases, there's going to be a reconciliation link there. And I know in particular the Metro Vancouver Regional District, and that would be the equivalent to a county here. So to a county here. So that King County, they, they've seemed to be been on board with this a lot earlier, in particularly working with some of the the First Nations and and CO managing. And again, I see, I mean, there are nation Well, you know, first of all, people know that Canada is, I believe, one of the first nations that actually has an entire territory that's that's indigenous, run, none of it. And I just found out there's actually a Tim Hortons there. I cannot believe that

Unknown:

expensive. That means must be for anybody that know,

Jennie Flaming:

my husband Jay, has been to that Tim Hortons Nunavut, and it's very expensive. Yeah, I can't remember exactly, but, yeah,$10,000

Craig Romano:

to fly there. So a$20 cup of coffee is

Taryn:

flying only. There's no roads to Nunavut, so it's a very expensive place to live, and they have no agriculture. Everything is flown in. All the food is flown in. Yeah.

Jennie Flaming:

You know, one thing that I think is really interesting just about this conversation overall, is that how how different and also similar things are on both sides of the border when it comes to things like this. And I agree with Craig that Canada, you know, while having a very similar history when it comes to indigenous people and colonization has has moved a lot further than than we have, which is really what's really great for us to see, even though I love that, that you've you've talked Taryn about how it's not just all roses and and beautiful, like it's still very challenging, but,

Craig Romano:

you know, yeah, what's interesting? And then, and Terry brought this, I didn't even realize this, you know, my background is in history, and I studied Northwest history and Canadian history, and I didn't even realize at the time that correct me, if I'm wrong here, that in British Columbia, none of the first nations signed a treaty, so it's all unseated. Is that correct?

Taryn:

I I believe so I wouldn't confirm that for sure. There might be some overlap with some people in East. Eastern BC or Northeastern BC? I don't think so, though it's, it's very treaty list here, for sure,

Craig Romano:

and see, and that's an important issue here in the States people listening, that even though I think almost all, all of our our tribes here did sign treaties, of as we know, 99.9% of them were broken by, you know, by by by us, that that still allows it illegal issues. And so in particularly in Washington, one of the biggest issues that that allowed indigenous people the right to to fish on their under land was the bolt decision in 1971 I believe, was 771 or 73 and so that we're able to use the law in that case. But in BC case, there was never even a treaty signed. So so it's in a totally different area now, like you said, now you're sitting there, in essence, kind of creating some type of legal framework to go forward that in itself is very different, and I believe that it's different anywhere else in Canada as well how Quebec is dealing with their first nations in Ontario and so forth. So it's a definitely different issue and also, but it also gives lots of opportunities to go forward with. You know, some of these places should be co managed. And I know we've, we've thought about it here. There's, there's a bill in Georgia to get a to get a new national park co manage with the Muskie people who were President Jackson kicked out. But again, I don't see that happening for at least four more years. So yeah.

Jennie Flaming:

So Taryn, um, another thing we wanted to talk about with you is Leave No Trace, and I feel like that really connects to this issue of gatekeeping. I mean, I feel like there's a lot of gatekeeping that happens even with Leave No Trace, like the idea that people should just know what that means, and also how that relates to First Nations and indigenous people and how they use the land, and how we can learn from that. So I would love to to have you share a little bit about that, and then we'll move into some spots on Vancouver Island and think,

Taryn:

sure, yeah, so I've been involved with Leave No Trace Canada since 2006 first as a trainer, and then starting in 2019 as a master educator. Although they've redone the labels now I think it's level one, level two and level three, something like that. I can't remember. I haven't kept up. Sounds right? Yeah, I also was on the board of directors for Leave No Trace Canada for a few years. And yeah, leave no trace Canada is just the Canadian branch of the Leave No Trace organization started in America. And I think that once I first heard about the concept of Leave No Trace, I was like, Oh, this is this. This is it. This is great. It's a framework that I can look to to understand the best way to treat the, you know, these wild places around me. And you know, like the seven principles are a great way to guide my actions. And I was really excited to learn about it and to start teaching it. And throughout the years, I've recognized that there are a lot of other perspectives on leave no trace. And I think that part of the problem is that while a lot of people have done a great job of publicizing what Leave No Trace is it's by far widely misunderstood. So a lot of people, when you say Leave No Trace to them, have a couple of reactions that are not what the founders of Leave No Trace intended. So one of those reactions is often, oh, yeah, I pick up my garbage. I'm good, thanks. I don't need no more information. And there are seven principles of leave no trace. There are many more things to learn, and you don't know what you don't know is one of the things that I like to tell people, you know, you don't you don't know what you're missing. The other reaction that I've heard a lot is, oh, leave no trace. Well, that's impossible, so why would I bother? I'm gonna go there. I'm gonna step on things. I might kill some ants. So who gives it, you know? Like, yeah, who gives a crap? Like, you know? Like, why you know? Like, we are all gonna have an impact. So, like, all this BS about minimizing my impact, like, yes, or whatever. And I think that's definitely a pretty cynical take on things. And I think that once you start to talk to people about Leave No Trace, one of the things that I learned when I was learning to teach Leave No Trace is something that is referred to as authority of the resource, which I really hate that term. Right? But what it is is basically learning to talk to people and explain the impact on the land. And so instead of saying, Don't litter, you'll get a fine thing. You know, did you know when you litter, it harms wildlife, it looks ugly, you know, all of these things explaining what happens. You know, like, you know, put your dog on a leash, you'll get a fine. Instead of saying, Did you know that wildlife are disturbed by animals, and there are endangered species here that you're scaring away? Or what resonates more with dog owners? Did you know there are dangerous animals here, that bulb hurt your precious fur baby?

Jennie Flaming:

Yes, I'm a dog owner, and I have to say, you know, that before I had a dog i i was very much like, I've always been really bothered by off leash dogs on trails, and this is something we have to do a whole other episode about. And when I became a dog owner, I was like, am I gonna change? And if anything, I feel like I feel more that way now that I have a dog, and I know I'm in the minority of dog owners there. But you know, when I was a kid, I was afraid of dogs. I know that culturally, it not every culture embraces dogs in the as snugly family members in the way that you know, kind of my background does. And, yeah, so just, we'll talk more about that another time. But, yeah, I'm glad

Taryn:

that dogs are one. Dogs are really tricky. And I think that the way that, the other thing that I think that's really interesting, that I haven't really seen that much discussion about, is the way that dogs, the position of dogs in the North American family, has changed in the last generation or two. You know, they were a possession, and they lived outdoors, and now they are absolutely a family member. And some people, including my sister, would argue that they have the same rights as people. So, you know, like, I think, like, It's just we've undergone this huge shift, and not everyone is a dog owner. So they haven't, they don't feel the same way. They're still back at a dog as a possession. And you should, you know, treat it as such, maybe not, you know, leave it in the yard all night. But you know, it doesn't get to have as much free will and choices as

Jennie Flaming:

a human Yeah. Yeah. Cool. Okay. Um, well, let's transition to talking a little bit about some of your favorite hikes, Terran, since we have you here. So let's start with Vancouver Island. I mean, man, if you're listening to this Washingtonians and you have a bend of Vancouver Island, you gotta go. It's awesome.

Taryn:

And especially if you're like in the sort of like Seattle, Puget Sound area. It's very easy.

Craig Romano:

You know, I live, I live an hour from the border, and getting to Vancouver Island is not, is not difficult at all, especially BC Ferries with great reservation system and everything else. So get out there. People go,

Taryn:

yes. You can also go from Port Angeles. That's an option too, absolutely. Yeah, yeah, yeah, yeah. So I guess favorite hikes on Vancouver Island, I having just talked about how easy Vancouver Island was to get to my favorite part of Vancouver Island is northern Vancouver Island, which is an eight hour drive from Southern Vancouver Island. So I've now added a ton of travel time for you Washingtonians, and it is for me too, it's an all day trek to get there, but I love the North Island, so kind of a like, maybe a similar vibe, a little bit to the Olympic coast in that on the North Island, so lots of beautiful rainforest and beaches, but definitely a different, a little bit different feel. So Cape Scott, which is the very northern tip of Vancouver Island, has some really interesting history, both both settler history and indigenous history in the like 1800s late 1800s and early 1900s a bunch of Danes tried to make farms up there. And then during World War Two, there were some military installations. So there's lots of kind of interesting historical stuff that you can poke around there in the forest and see. And then, of course, there are the beautiful beaches. And then there's lots of industry, interesting indigenous history up there. The you know, people, of course, have been living there since, as they say, time immemorial. So there are lots of lots of things to see, if we know where to look them, and lots lots of history. For example, there's a village in Cape Scott Park, a village site. And. Um, that was actually shelled by the British during colonial times. There was dispute about someone who had allegedly murdered a British person, and the British sent the Navy, which took years to get there by the time everybody had forgotten about it, and then they shelled the village. So there's lots of, like, really wacky, interesting, I guess they wouldn't call it wacky they died, but, like, kind of, really interesting historical anomalies up there.

Craig Romano:

Yeah, and it's, it's funny, you mentioned that in your book, you have sidebars on that too. And again, you could talk about Vancouver Island. A lot of people had no idea that the Nuka sound was a major crisis that almost brought all these major powers together for war. And if you look at where NUCCA is today, and you're like, what is up with that? So I think people are going to exactly be amazed at some of the history. One of the things Sarah, you told me about when we discussed last in Vancouver, last, last winter that absolutely amazed me. And this ties into Jennie and I just did a segment on incredible wildlife encounters we've had. So this is either going to scare people or attract them. Tell talk about that wolf encounter again on Vancouver Island. That just blows me away.

Taryn:

Yeah. So the wolf population in BC, or coastal BC, like in a lot of the US was really decimated by hunting and bounties for predators, and it's coming back. And so there are places, you know, like like the cape Scott area at the northern tip of Vancouver Island, or Tofino on the West Coast, which is a popular tourist destination, that are seeing rebounding wolf populations. But these wolves are really interesting because they're you might have seen there's a Netflix, Netflix documentary a few years ago. They're called Sea Wolves, so they're a genetically distinct population. They swim a lot, they eat a lot of marine life, and they they live on the beaches and in the rain forests. And so we were hiking on nook Island, which is off the west coast of Vancouver Island, so a pretty remote place to get there by a float plane or water taxi. Although it's a it's a, you know, fairly popular, I mean, not super popular, but it's a well known backpacking destination, the maucha muja nation manages the trail, and are actually looking actively to promote it for tourism, to help their their nation have some Eco tourism. But at the time that I hiked it, it was just starting to be popular, so it was not very busy. And one night, we were doing our dishes on the beach, and, you know, the sun was just going down, there was a little bit of light left in the sky, and we noticed there were some animals on the beach, so we retreated back up the short hill from the water to our campfire, and watched as half a dozen wolves appeared, and then more, and then more. And I think in the end, there were probably about 20 wolves, and the older, larger males came quite close to us to see what we were. They were very curious, and we shouted and threw rocks, and they stayed right at the edge of the farthest place we could throw rocks. And the younger wolves played in the creek, splashing each other and wrestling, and, you know, it seemed like hours later, but probably was five minutes. They all trotted off and went down the beach past us and went wherever they went, and we went to sleep, kind of wondering what, what we should be doing if we were safe, but we didn't have any further incidents. And then at the end of the hike, we walked into yuquot, which was formerly a very large village and is now seasonally home to a few people from the mawa chat Bucha let nation. And we told them about our our encounter with these wolves, and they said that's the most wolves they've ever heard of. Anybody seeing it once. So I think it must have several packs together meeting. For some reason, it was definitely a lifetime highlight for me. I love

Jennie Flaming:

that, and I love that you're like and then we went to sleep. I know that's such a relatable backpacking story. This like an animal encounter that was awesome. Now it's bedtime,

Taryn:

and I thought, I thought it would have have trouble sleeping, but I think I just adrenaline crashed and just passed out. Oh, we did see one wolf in the morning too.

Jennie Flaming:

Of course you did, and you're like, Okay, this is fine.

Craig Romano:

Amazing story. It beats it beats all my wildlife encounters. Let me tell you it did. That's incredible.

Jennie Flaming:

So um, Taryn, what else, anything else for Vancouver Island that you want to share as a highlight? Yeah, I

Taryn:

mean, I think that Vancouver Island gets a lot of press for their COVID. Hiking, and the coastal hiking is beautiful and incredible, but I think that a lot of people don't recognize that Vancouver Island has beautiful Alpine hiking as well. So the center of the island is Strathcona Provincial Park. It's the oldest Provincial Park in BC, and the mountains are not exceptionally tall, but they're the tallest ones on the island. And the terrain in there is really beautiful and rugged. It's old, like ancient sea floor. So it's kind of this interesting, weathered volcanic rock, you know, the sort of classic pocket glaciers, scrubby trees, pointy rocks situation. But because you're in the middle of the island. Once you get up there, the views are incredible. Like you can get up and see the ocean on both sides. So like the Mount Washington area, which is a ski hill, is a great place to explore, because you can drive all the way up thanks to that Ski Hill Road, and then walk through the sub alpine meadows and climb Mount Albert Edward, which is the sixth tallest mountain on the on the island, and there's backcountry camping there, some of which is quite close to the to the trailhead. So really accessible for beginners, really beautiful place to explore.

Craig Romano:

You just I, and I was just that I've been to Strathcona a couple of times. It's wonderful. Matter of fact, it's the second place I ever took my wife camping and hiking, and she got so hooked on the back country. And then last summer, using your book, I went to the forbidden plateau, which is in the Strathcona. And again, one of the amazing things, and I just wrote a feature on this for Northwest travel magazine. So maybe there's going to be some more Americans up there this, this coming summer, the accessibility that, as you said, you get this beautiful paved road coming out of Comox Valley that gets you up to where the ski the ski areas you park there. You're already in the sub Alpine. Beautiful trails, boardwalks. You've got 2020, lakes out there, and these wonderful back, back, back country areas, platforms you can camp. So again, your beginner backpacker is absolutely it's a really well run part. It's beautiful. And again, if people are unaware, it's it's over a half million acres. I think it's up to 600,000 it's huge. It's the largest, largest park on the island. And as Terence, it's the oldest, the oldest of BC, amazing place.

Jennie Flaming:

Cool. Okay, so, Taryn, let's move over to the mainland. Tell us about some of your favorite hikes over there. Yeah.

Taryn:

So I live in Squamish, and one of the reasons we moved here is because it's adjacent to my favorite park, Garibaldi Provincial Park, which is the second oldest Provincial Park in BC. And Garibaldi is, I think if, if history had been different, it would have been a national park like the the sort of like scenery level is, is National Park worthy? So huge volcano, dormant volcano, Mount Garibaldi and sky in the Squamish language, and then giant lava dammed lake below it, glaciers. That's sort of the core of the park. But then there's lots of other areas of the park as well, accessed via five different trail heads. The entire park is back country. There's there's no front country, anything you have to hike into the park at the shortest about three and a half kilometers to get to anything good, but usually longer. So Garibaldi Lake, with as a base camp for backpacking, with day hikes to the Black Tusk, which is a big volcanic plug, or panorama Ridge, which has an incredible view of the lake, are sort of a classic trip. But other parts of the park, like elfin lakes, which is kind of a ridge walk along an old road with beautiful views down to the Squamish Valley, where I live on one side, and the glaciers, the mount quam ice field on the other. And then you can do some hikes and scrambles past there also great. But the you know, incredible scenery and proximity to Vancouver has a drawback, which is that it's a very, very popular and very busy Park. So in all year round, you need reservations to camp in the back country, which you can get online four months to the date before your trip. And in the summer, you also need a parking pass to park at the trailheads, and you have to reserve those online two days before your trip in the morning. And those are quite hard to get, especially on weekends. So it's definitely, you know, a place where we're seeing increased use and increased pressure, but it's also a place where we're really butting up against, you know, like we talked about earlier government not having. Enough Monday funding or a mandate to do things. So there are lots of opportunities in the park to expand things and and have more access, or, you know, different access. But unfortunately, BC parks just doesn't have the manpower, the people power to make that happen. So we're stuck with the permit system for use at the moment. That's

Craig Romano:

a good point you made, too. And garibal is amazing. I've been to a lot of those places. You talked about incredible place, about the restrictions, and if you know, if you look at a map of the Lower Mainland, you'll see these huge provincial parks, garibaldi, golden ears, the pine cone, Burke, huge. But then when you look at how much of it is actually accessible with a road, it's, in some cases it, it's less than a couple of percent um. And so again, as the Greater Vancouver area has exploded, you know, three and a half, 4 million people, and then people coming from all over. Is there room to develop more punching in a road, farther, more campsites, more trails? Or do we just leave it wild to some of these areas and then just have the front country stuff, incredibly, increasingly get so, so crowded, so popular again, because all those places you talk about it moved here in 1989 I would I went to Garibaldi on a whim. I could just go up there and camp and and same thing with golden airs. And now everything is permanent. We're having the same, same issues here in Washington and Oregon and California. You would think there'd be a move to, again, increase some accessibility, you know, barring going into sensitive lands and such. But there, I think there's plenty of areas, especially a lot of the cutover areas, that are coming back at second, third growth forest. Yeah, it's gonna, it's gonna involve one. I mean, the people are asking for it, but the government has got to back this and get behind this. And what's it going to take to do that we're not keeping up. Yeah.

Taryn:

I mean, I think that's a great point, and it's really difficult. I think that the two main things that are keeping well, the three main things that are keeping this from happening, one is funding. So successive provincial governments in BC have cut funding to BC parks, and we have a government in power now that theoretically would be quite welcoming to increasing funding to BC parks, but there are way more pressing issues, right? We have an opioid crisis. We have a housing crisis, you know, like, those are absolutely first priority, and BC parks doesn't even really show up in in budget documents. Much lately, it's not a priority when new governments come in and just, you know, announce their new plans. The second, the second hurdle is that the BC parks ministry and management is very conservation minded. And, you know, I guess rightly so. So you know, Garibaldi Park and the parks close to BC, hold endangered populations of grizzly bears and mountain goats. Unlike your Washington mountain goats, ours are very shy. I don't know what's going on in Washington, especially Eastern Washington, where your goats are just like coming up to people, yeah, scary. Ours, ours are super shy. I don't know why. Like, they see a helicopter, and then they, like, leave an area forever, which is concerning. So a lot of the studies around expanding recreation opportunities have been stymied by goat, especially goat mating and birthing and, you know, grounds, you know, that kind of thing. And then the last one is, one we've already discussed, is that in order to put in anything new, you need to negotiate nation to nation with indigenous governments. And there, it's not a priority for them. And they also, you know, have their own things they'd like to see in parks. You know, they have traditional hunting grounds they haven't been able to access for years. They have, you know, sensitive cultural sites that they want protected, that they don't want publicized. There's lots and lots of factors. So I think it's really politically complicated. And there are outside of parks. There are, you know, there has been some new trail building in the Sea to Sky corridor between Vancouver and Whistler, but not much. And we need more.

Craig Romano:

What I'm seeing in in BC, in particular Vancouver, and the same thing that's happening here, I think our glory days of the back country, and especially in the States, when we had presidents like Roosevelt in both of them, and matter of fact, I always joke, nobody is in my lifetime. Nobody has ever run for president saying I'm going to make our national park system great again. I would love that person has my vote. Thank you. It's just not a priority, like you said. But on the positive side, what I'm seeing is this incredible increase of urban trails and rail trails. And again, I just wrote a book on on the Greater Vancouver, on the Metro Vancouver, regional districts, urban trails. It blows me away. It's an incredible trail system. It has expanded so much so we can make the argument too, that again, for equity, you know, for being trails, being equitable and everything we're building the trails close to where the people live. Because it requires, you know, it requires some money to get out to the Rockies and into the interior and all these places where where people live. You can get on a get on a bus or the sky train and have these beautiful park systems. So maybe that, you know, maybe that seems to be where we're emphasizing a lot of our our trail building right now. And of course, there's other issues too. You deal with climate issues too, trying to get people you know, to bike to work and and push a lot of these things. So I think, I think we can celebrate that, that we're making some amazing progress. And even in places like in the Okanagan, Penticton, some of those areas that the urban trail systems that are growing there is incredible places you wouldn't expect it. So yeah,

Taryn:

and I think that is a function of funding. So Metro Vancouver parks, which maintains a lot of parks, a little bit more like not wilderness parks, but wilderness adjacent parks in the Vancouver area, their overall budget is larger than Bc parks. BC parks manages 1000 parks. Much of Vancouver has, I think, two dozen.

Craig Romano:

It's the same thing the King County park system, same which is Seattle. And the King County Park System rivals a lot of our state parks. They have an amazing park system and a trail system. Yeah, exactly, I guess you go where the money and where the people are, yeah.

Jennie Flaming:

So Taryn, are there any other like, trails or areas for hiking you want to highlight? Obviously, like BC is amazing, and there's like, unending amazing hikes. But are there any others that you want to call out today? Yeah.

Taryn:

So one of my favorite places east of Vancouver is manning Provincial Park. So it's about three hours east of Vancouver. I guess it's like, north of, like, north of, like, the big Mount Baker area, farther

Craig Romano:

east, yeah, little farther east where the PCT comes in, so north of Ross Lake and all that. Yeah,

Taryn:

right north of North Cascades. Ish, yeah. So it's, it's a lot, it's over a mountain pass from Vancouver. So you're kind of getting into that Eastern BC, Eastern Washington climate, where things are a little drier, a little less rain, not, you know, totally Eastern, Eastern where you're really dry, but it's a great park that has a lot of wonderful campgrounds, like driving campgrounds and a lodge if you want to stay inside, and you could easily stay there for a day and day hike. So like, there are easier hikes, you know, down in the valley bottom along the lakes. Or there are a couple great hikes, the heather trail being one of them, where you drive a scenic Road, which I don't think would be built today, up into the cell Alpine and you're immediately off the pavement into alpine meadows. Beautiful, beautiful, wild flow, wild flowers, sort of late July, early August, depending just like unending carpets of wildflowers, my husband always sings the sound of music songs when we go there. That's

Craig Romano:

awesome. And I have to vouch for Manning is also one of my favorite I went there the first time in 1989 when I moved here. I've been hooked. I have hiked almost every trail there. It is an amazing park. And all the things you said too, they have great campsites. They have cabins going in the winter time too. It has downhill and cross country skiing. And it's not that it's a two hour drive from from most of north of Seattle, where I live. It's two hours. Seattle, it's three hours.

Jennie Flaming:

No, it's like five or six hours. It's awesome and super worth it. But it's very you could drive, you could drive 110k

Craig Romano:

on the on the highway over there,

Jennie Flaming:

but on the way to Manning Park.

Craig Romano:

Yeah, I'm talking to hope. Okay, yeah, I know, I know that Jennie didn't want to talk, and we won't talk, but talk about some of your favorite places in the interior too. Because again, and it should emphasize that with the highways. Again, once you get over the border, you can get to Kamloops really quickly. You know, the roads are good. I love rebel Stokes, one of my favorite areas. What are what is I

Taryn:

was actually going to say Revelstoke. Revelstoke is my favorite place. It's awesome. It's not like like Vancouver Island or the coast. The Revelstoke is a little mountain town, originally a railway town and now kind of a ski town, but in the summer, it's an amazing place to go for hiking. It's in between the Monash and Purcell mountains, so it's, you kind of got to go over a path to getting there, out of town, which makes it pretty, pretty isolated. But it's got a really vibrant little downtown core with the great farmers market and distilleries and breweries like they're it's, I mean, I guess kind of Leavenworth vibes without the German thing.

Craig Romano:

It's not, it's not, yeah, it's actually authentic in amazing the restaurants and the beer, all those things. She said, Yeah.

Taryn:

And then outside of town, you have Mount Revelstoke National Park, which is another place where you have a road built up into the Alpine. So, you know, I took, took my mom for a walk around the little lake up there, you know, so she could see the wildflowers and the views. But then later, you know, on a different trip, you know, you can hike all the way into the backcountry to Eva and Jade lakes. There's lots of there's actually even good hiking at the ski resort. So the Mount Revelstoke ski hill, you can take the chair all the way to the top, which they keep open in the summer for mountain bikers, and then hike through the Alpine up there. Yeah, lots of waterfalls near town, if you want, like sort of lower elevation hikes, one of my favorite places to go hiking in, BC, for sure. And then I also love northern BC. It's something that not unless people know about and talk about, once you get a couple hours north of Vancouver, the traffic thins out. The roads are pretty good and well maintained, and you can drive pretty quickly. If anybody's driven to Alaska, you've driven through a lot of stuff you should have stopped at, yes,

Jennie Flaming:

I'm so glad that you know Taryn, I should have you come on the Alaska podcast and talk about that, because I'm always telling people, like, Don't rest your way through, BC it's amazing. Yeah, yeah.

Craig Romano:

Like, I drove the DC highway, the casr when it was mostly dirt. Oh, my God, it was awful. It's good thing. I had a rental van, log, the air filter and everything. But unbelievable territory, Anthony, I gotta get back here. I mean, you have volcanic plateaus and all kinds of stuff. Yeah. I mean, BC, again, for our American if you look at a map, British Columbia is huge. I mean, how many states they're Mike, East Coast states? How many West Coast states we can fit into it? It's huge. And you can spend your entire lifetime seeing only a fraction of it, yeah,

Taryn:

like, for reference, it would take like, maybe 10 or 11 hours non stop to drive east to west across BC, and maybe, like, 18 to 20 to drive north to south. Maybe even put

Craig Romano:

us in California from here. I mean, again, yeah, perspective, yeah, exactly.

Unknown:

I mean, some of those numbers are because we have a ton of mountains in the way, so our roads are not so straight. But yeah,

Jennie Flaming:

so where should people go in northern BC? Taryn,

Taryn:

so I really recommend, and it's a bucket list trip for most people, but Haida Gwaii, formerly known as the Queen Charlotte island. So people call it the Galapagos of Canada, or the Galapagos of the North Pacific. It's a group of islands off the coast of BC, northern BC, near the town of Prince Rupert that were like they're very ecologically different because of the way that glaciology or glaciation happened. They're also really interesting, because half the population is Haida. The Haida nation and the indigenous culture there is stronger than anywhere else I've, I've been in BC so, like, you know, when you go to Hawaii and people say aloha to people like, you know, Hawaiians and and non native Hawaiians, they Aloha. And it's just part of the culture to use a Hawaiian word in Haida Gwaii, everyone says Hawa, which means thank you. So with the grocery store, you know, like you pay for your groceries, and everybody's the Hawa, have a good day. Everybody says it. So it's really, really part of a cult. The culture there, there's some of the, like most classic Northwest indigenous art historically, like all of the big totem poles that were taken away to museums. Were stolen from Haida Gwaii. Incredible History of carvers there. And you can take boat tours through the National Park, wai Hanas National Park, to see all of these village sites that are still there, that some of the places that you can connect most closely with pre contact indigenous cultural artifacts, and be guided by contemporary indigenous people who can tell you about how their ancestors, recent ancestors, you know, lived there in the ways that they lived, and the rainforest is beautiful.

Jennie Flaming:

I I agree. I want to go there. So

Craig Romano:

it's on my bucket list, too, and

Taryn:

people also. The one thing I want to say about Haida Gwaii is that the a lot of the sort of like tourism information around Haida Gwaii really sells it as a luxury destination, is the place that you need to go on$10,000 a week sailing crew. Shoes or a fishing go to a remote fishing lodge, or stay at an all inclusive resort that's run by the Haida nation. And those are all great ways to, you know, experience Haida Gwaii, and in some cases, get a lot of tourism dollars into the pockets of indigenous people who need it. But you can also absolutely do Haida Gwaii in a budget. You can camp at the provincial park or other places. You can take a budget Zodiac tour, like I did, and stay in shared accommodation with outhouses and shared bathrooms. So, like, it's, I mean, it's, it's a budget tour for Haida Gwaii. It's not a budget, you know, like, you're still paying a lot of money, but you definitely don't have to be really wealthy to go to Haida Gwaii. And you know,

Jennie Flaming:

I'm so glad you said that, Taryn, and when I get ready to plan my trip, I'm going to ask you about those options. I've

Taryn:

got some great information on my website about perfect, awesome

Craig Romano:

and perfect segue to so anyone out there who's not familiar with Terence work and her website, obviously, she's a source for British Columbia. Well,

Jennie Flaming:

Taryn, thank you so much for for joining us today and sharing all of these wonderful places in BC and about some of the things that hikers and land managers are navigating in BC, awesome. Well, thank you so much. Taryn,

Taryn:

yeah, thanks again for having me. It's been great to talk to you both. Yeah, likewise.

Jennie Flaming:

Hey everyone. I hope you enjoyed the show, Craig and I would really love it if you could show your support, if you are enjoying the show, by leaving us a rating or a review and for both that really helps other people find us. Thank you so much for your support. You.

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Jennie Thwing Flaming

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Craig Romano

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