The Washington State Hiking Podcast

Going Deeper with Nature on the Trail with Matthew Kessi

• Jennie Thwing Flaming and Craig Romano • Episode 70

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Jennie, welcome to the Washington State hiking podcast. I'm your host. Jennie Thwing Flaming, and I'm your co host, Craig Romano, Craig and I are happy to have you here. We provide practical and timely, seasonal hiking advice for hikers, trail runners and potential hikers and trail runners of all skill and ability levels that is helpful, accurate, fun and inclusive. All right, everybody, welcome back to the Washington State hiking podcast, and today I have with me our special guest, my friend Matthew, Matthew Kessi from Kessi world, and he and I first met when we were both starting blogs and small online businesses and sort of fleeing other careers a little bit. And Matthew really has a gift for helping people, including me, kind of slow down and really connect with nature in a way that can be very healing and very helpful when you're trying to do things like make decisions or get through tough times or whatever. So I have really benefited from his work and having him as a friend. So I am thrilled to be able to introduce you to Matthew. Matthew, thanks for being here. Thank you, Jennie, I'm happy to be here. I'm glad you're here too. Yeah. So we're gonna talk a little bit today about how to help hikers really connect with nature and go a bit deeper and get some of those benefits from being outside, beyond just getting exercise and having a good time. So before we dive into that, though, can you share a little bit about your story, kind of how you came to this work, and introduce yourself a bit. Yeah, hello, everybody. My name is Matthew Kessie, and I have a website called Kessie world, and it's the intersection of travel nature and spirit. And when I say spirit, I mean a mystical sense of connection to something bigger than than we are, and finding this in in the natural world. And I started out, grew up on a dairy farm in Oregon, and I had access to the woods and to to lots of areas. And it was during a time of, you know, in the 70s, when kids were kind of free range anyway. So I was, you know, go play all day, type of thing. Come in at night. And I I talked to trees. I felt, I felt different presences and energies and these kinds of things, and I just knew that to be normal for me, and it comforted me during the ups and downs of childhood. And I always had a really deep relationship with the natural world, despite really having any labels for that or not having really labels for that. And that's carried out through my life. My path led me to work for an airline. And I worked for an airline for 25 years, and in that capacity, I did a lot of different kinds of jobs. Mostly I worked in sales and relationship building with airlines, and I traveled during that time, I traveled all over the world. I used my benefits to do that, and so my travels were always geared towards nature, so I climbed to the top of Kilimanjaro and hiked in Himalaya and yeah, and closer to home, rainier and St Helens and those kinds of things. So I always had a nature bent to my travels. But in the world of in the corporate world that I was in, I also allowed that connection to to wane a little bit. And daily life was, you know, had all the things of working a job and the demands and then working in a corporate environment. And in 2018 I got laid off. And despite the heartbreak of that, it was the best opportunity I've ever had to to to pivot and to go back to my childhood roots and nature, yeah, and so I've continued that for you know, since that time, really just going into the natural world. First all, first of all, for healing and for, for coming to terms with, you know, a loss after 25 years, which was really rough, and using the natural world for healing, because that was natural to me, was to go to nature, to go hiking, to do these different things, and to have the space to to heal from this. And then, yeah, and then, you know, so there's healing in nature, there's wellness. So I started with healing, and then I kind of transitioned into wellness, and then, and then wellness led to awakening. And that's really where I started to get the, the inspiration to start the the website, the blog. And then along the way, I've meandered. Into what I do now, which is guided forest bathing nature walks, which is what we've done in the Arboretum in Seattle. And I lead or facilitate three day weekend retreats on the Olympic Peninsula, and they're geared towards helping people slow down and find their relationship with the natural world. And now I have a YouTube channel. So I'm making 20 minute videos that are designed to help people find connection to the natural world when maybe you can't get outside, or for whatever reason, it's not possible to go out into nature's beauty. Yeah, and, and I work with the notion that some studies have shown that 20 minutes a day or two hours a week, but I bring that down to 20 minutes a day in some sort of connective activity with the natural world, is enough to start making lasting changes in your life, physiologically reducing anxiety. There's links to lower blood pressure, and then, of course, the mental, emotional, the spiritual health as well. And so my YouTube videos are 20 minutes for that reason, to help people open up to what that might look like. Yeah, in your life. Yeah, you know it's interesting. While you were talking, I feel like this isn't something that you and I have talked about a ton, but just that experience of being laid off from a job is something that's been on my mind a lot in the last few months. Well, you know, federal workers are being laid off, and where we live, a lot of tech workers have been laid off, and I've just been remembering how that has happened to me twice, a little further back than it did for you, but just how really, quite terrifying that can be. And the I think, I think you use the term heartbreak, and I think, you know, you can be like, well, this is just a job and but if it was what you were doing. It's really special, if it's something that you're passionate about, yeah, really hard. And I think I'm just thinking about the time of uncertainty that we're in, in 2025 and that's one of the reasons I that both Craig and I really wanted to have you come on, is just to kind of talk about how this can really be restorative outside with hiking. So cool. Okay, so I know you are a hiker as well, and I'd love to know how this journey that you've been on has changed hiking for you, yeah, yeah. Well, first of all, for all of you listening, imagine, imagine a hike that you've gone on, or a place that you went where you found this sense of just bliss in nature, whether it was outstanding beauty or you were, you were free from all the things of daily life. What that hold on to, what that feeling was like, what you know, who, who was, who were you? Were you with somebody? What were you looking at? Where were you? And just hold on to that for a moment and and then imagine that you could have that every day. Imagine you could bring that to you, your life for 20 minutes every day, in one way, shape or form, even when you can't maybe go to those locations, yeah. And so that's how, ultimately, that's how my world has been changed with doing this deeper nature, connection, work. And you can use different words, meditation, contemplation, connection, force, bathing. There's all a lot of different ways to word this. Yeah, it's really, what it really is, is getting to that place where you have that feeling. And we, you know, humans, we've been in nature for 30,000 years. Yeah, we started in nature, maybe not at the top of the food chain, and we depended upon the natural world for lots of different things, but to stay alive. And thank you, ancestors, because so so far so good. Yeah, but, but our brains recognize that, and we don't even necessarily have words for it sometimes, yeah, but it's that, it's that, it's that connection and things that are abundant in nature, we can learn is that everything's interdependent in nature. So that's a sense of belonging, yeah. Resilience. Nature changes all the time. You're resilient, and then also purpose. And so that's what this work has helped me find on a regular daily basis, is really deepen into ways to look at my connection, feeling connected to things, feeling like I have a purpose, and then also feeling resilient. And in these times right now, in particular. Particular I call on that every day, yeah, calling that a few times a day, right? To imagine that I'm, I'm like a tall tree in the forest, you know, with roots and a tall body, and then I have the branches, and the Branches sway, and the wind comes in, yeah, and you hear the Yeah, yeah. And, and that's, that's that's how my life continues to change with nature, and as it pertains to the the logistics, the actual physical movement in the forest, I go a lot slower. I enter into whatever experience I'm going to in nature with the perspective of, how do I want to connect here today? Yeah, and, you know, we have different missions to going into the natural world. Sometimes it might be distance, or maybe you do need to get to a certain location by a certain time, like there are practicalities there and and what this is really about, for me, how I've changed, is really seeing myself no matter what the mission is, is, how am I going to be part of this, and not a tourist and not a just a passer by? How am I going to weave myself into this, into belonging, into resilience, into purpose, into this experience. And when I look at it that way, that can apply to me being in Manhattan in Central Park, it can apply to me being out in Eastern Oregon. It can apply to me facilitating a retreat on the Olympic Peninsula. And this is what I'm passionate about helping, helping people find is that as access anytime you want, yeah, like the World Wide Web, it's, it's connecting into nature anywhere, yeah, and it's about getting the passcode. You can help your you can create that passcode for yourself so you can get in anywhere. Yeah, that's pretty cool. You know, that's making me think about for our listeners. If any of you out there are like me, this is very difficult for me. Matthew knows, like the quieting my mind in particular, is very, very challenging. And I'm sure that I'm not alone in that. And one thing that I really appreciate, I imagine you've also had a journey to getting to more mindfulness on the trail or in nature, but, um, I feel like you're really kind and generous around people. If I'm like, sorry, my brain was just really buzzy just then you're like, that's okay, just move on. Um, and I really appreciate that, but that kind of leads me into the next thing I wanted to ask you about, which is, for other people like me who are like, ooh, this sounds really like, I really need to be able to do this. I need to get some more benefit. What am I trying to say? Like, a deeper, that deeper connection you're talking about, and that that would really be a huge added benefit of being outside, whether it's hiking or anything else. What advice do you have for somebody just getting started, like, like, what are some of the tools that you use without giving too much away? Because everyone can go to your YouTube channel and then they can learn from you. That's which I would highly recommend. But like, if you were to give someone you know who's like, really intrigued but intimidated by this, a piece of advice. What would that be? It's really important to meet nature where you are, kind of like in other things in life, meeting people where they are, meeting the moment where you are, and and so if you're curious about deepening your nature connection, you're not really sure why, but you're not really sure how start with what's around you. So I'm here with you, Jennie, and we have tulips at the table. And so it can be as simple as just putting down your phone or disconnecting the things around you that could be distracting, maybe for five minutes, and looking at the tulips and maybe looking at the tulips in a different way, or maybe just with curiosity opening up, maybe noticing the ways that the leaves move. Maybe, maybe you haven't noticed that before you've bought tulips, you put them in the vase, and then you see them. But it could be as simple as spending five minutes, then maybe eight minutes. It's just kind of baby stepping into, like looking at it from a different angle, the curiosity. So it can start in your house, or it can start, you know, somewhere, you know, a picnic table outside your work at lunch. Yep, it starts in these, in these places where it's accessible to you, and instead of some lofty goal, like, I need to go to this beautiful lake I've seen pictures of, and that's when I'm going to start my nature connection. And good for you if you're able to do that. Yeah? But it's like any kind of habit. It's like building habits that are that are reasonable and accessible and make sense for you in your life. Yeah. What I love to tell people in the summers, you know, I live in we live in Seattle, so wherever you are may not be the same way, but in the summer, we have beautiful weather, but then they cut the grass at parks, like I live near volunteer Park, and even just to take off your shoes, or if you're wearing sandals and walk barefoot in the grass and feel your feet touching the dirt and in touching the soil, but also the grass. It's these kinds of things that open up your senses to starting a different conversation, or deepening your existing conversation with nature. Yeah. And so that's the first step. And then if you are going hiking and you're at the start of a trail, let's say I encourage you to be curious about how can you begin this experience? Well, and so if there's some things you need to do to get ready, to put on your boots, whatever that is like do that get ready the way you would normally with logistical things, and then consider a different kind of entry, or different kind of ritual or something at the beginning where maybe you just acknowledge that you're there, and you might Even just say, hey, nature, I'm here with good intentions. Yeah, you could say, you know, maybe you have, maybe you're going through your own kind of heartbreak. You can say, hey, nature, I'm heartbroken. I'm here today, and I'm gonna walk. I don't know what this means, or I don't know what questions to ask, but I want to be here and and just connect. And so whatever that may, whatever makes sense for you, doing that, it goes a long way. Yeah. Because really, what you're doing is you're shifting things within your body, your physical, your physiologically, your mental, you're you're engaging in a different way. Yep. And there's this intelligence in nature that we've, humans have known for for 30,000 years. And when we start to pay attention to that in different ways or deeper ways, or start to ask questions, the answers and the connection will come, yeah. And so it could be, it could be something like that. And then, and then another, just another thing that I remind people when I take them on, you know, nature walks, or the three day weekend retreats, which are a little bit more intense because they're more about slowing down, is make sure that the first 20 minutes, maybe the first hour, if it's a longer all day hike, maybe the first hour. Or if it's a shorter hike, maybe the first 20 minutes. Be really mindful about limiting your distractions at that time, and work on trying to slow down. And that can be slowing down your physical your gait, your steps, could be slowing down your mind and and just imagine that you're starting to or ask the question, what is my natural pace? And on the retreats, it's interesting, because I have a whole section. I have activities dedicated to these different things. So I don't just say, Jennie, look at the tree and meditate. You know, do it right now. Don't stress out about it either. I feel like, immediately, it doesn't work. Lo and behold, I know you're surprised that doesn't, does not work. So I have activities and and on my retreats in particular, there's people that are very, very familiar with nature who've done lots of things. Like, yeah, like, I have, like, they've they've hiked, they've done all these different immersion activities. They always remark about how interesting it was to really focus on slowing down. And that's slowing down the inner, inside, you're slowing down your brain. And that's what stands out with a lot of participants. And they fight me on it at the beginning. They're like, No, I think my natural pace is this pace. And I'm like, Girl, you're going like, you're racing on this trail, yeah, without judgment, but really just with curiosity of what would it look like if, if you you slowed down a little bit more, and and so if. If you're wondering, well, what is my natural pace? Or I'm asking you that question, to reflect on, what is my natural pace, then you can you might look around at things in nature, yeah. And like to see, like, what, what are the paces in nature? Now, in there's there's things where there's times when nature's very fast, but most of the time it's not, it's slow to medium, yep. And so what's a place like everyone always loves the beach, right? And I, my suspicion, my hypothesis, is that we love the beach because it reminds us of our natural pace when you're out on the waves, you're out sitting on the sand or walking on the beach, and what's the natural pace of the waves. It's like the waves come in and they crash, and then they pull they pull back out the water, pulls out, yeah, and there's a pause, almost like an exhale, and then another wave comes in, yeah, and then pulls out to the ocean. And so that's an example of of what, what does that pace and how does that feel? Yeah, you could also think about in general, making generalization. Generalization. Here we our heart beats about one beat per second, resting 60 beats, 60 beats a minute. So even just imagine your heart beating one second in every second, and what that is so you could even take out your watch, or you could, you could time that and even just try that on a trail, and maybe take one step for every heartbeat, perhaps. So there's ways that you can can look to nature, maybe to mimic nature and to just give it a try. And because what I found on, you know, nine mile hikes, when I really focus on the first 20 minutes, the first hour, and build that in to the plans, but when I, when I, when I do that, it's like a reset it's like I'm literally pushing reset button. Yeah. And then, even if I'm going, if I'm doing a rock scramble, or I'm or I have to going a little faster to beat a tide, or whatever, my inner, my inner self, has slowed down so I can almost, you know, I can get the benefits of these other aspects of what I might need to do on a longer, let's say, a longer hike, but it's reset at the beginning, and then in that space, I'm able to take in the connection to to look at nature in different ways. And really it's about building that relationship. It's a two way relationship. I and then you I can see that a little easier and and then for for shorter hikes, the magic of that is that you might not even need to finish the trail, because you're getting in all the goodness of the things that are around you. Prior to this recording, this podcast today, I went in. I went to Seward Park. And I like to, you know, engage nature before I have events, right before I do things, if I have a difficult conversation, and it helps me see myself more clearly. And so my intention was to go into the middle of the forest, the magnificent forest in Seward Park in the middle part. And I got about 20 feet on that trail, and I saw a cedar tree, and I just, I just felt this, I don't felt the need to stop. And I hung out with the tree for the whole time, for about 15 or 20 minutes. And in that was enriching in, in what I need today, for this, you know, to be here with you, and I'm at the place now of practice where that is that's great, yeah, doesn't have to be anything more than that. And if I had walked around through the whole forest, great too. Yeah. So the, I think the original question was, what are some ways that to start making the steps into this? Yes, and I think, I hope I've identified, there's lots of different ways to do this, and in different places, in different times, something might make sense differently than in another location or another time. Yeah. And with, with the ID being that you you can find access and make habits to access nature, maybe more regularly than you're able to, you know, do the walk, do the hikes in the fantastic places that maybe you only able to go, you know, on the weekends, or, yeah, once a month or summer, a two week back country hike or something like that. Yeah, you know, it's interesting to like when you were at kind of the beginning of that part of the conversation, you were talking about places that might be in your home or close to your workplace, I was thinking about how another. Benefit of that is watching how things change seasonally, and if it's a place that you see every day, or like going back to Seward Park, which is close to my house, where we're recording, that's a place that I go, I don't know, on average, probably two or three times a week for the last, like 17 years. Yeah, and it's interesting because it now that I know it so well, I'm really aware of seasonal changes, but there's also always something new there, which I think is really kind of important as well, is like, it's awesome to go out and have those, like, big adventures and new places. And I love doing that. But it's also really cool to kind of tune in to, like, what's in, what's very accessible to you on a daily, weekly, monthly basis, stuff that doesn't require a big production. Yeah, to Yeah. I mean, I look at nature as sentient, and it's like, it's like a friend. And, you know, you have friendships, and some days that's just wasn't the wasn't the best day, yeah, friend. And other days, it's really comforting when you just need something that's familiar person that knows you, and I'm the same way, like this, this, this cedar tree that I was with. I've I don't go as frequently as you do, but, but every time I go into nature on a on a hike or on a walk, I notice something different. And then when I go a little bit deeper and ask questions about that. Usually there's there's a message, or there's a symbol, or there's something for me that I need at that moment, yeah, and that's where I liken it to a really beautiful friendship. Is that friendships, you know, they Evan, they flow, but, but, but that connection at the right moment is, is worth everything, yeah, and I see that that's, you know, I'm glad you brought that up, because I oftentimes like to go on trails, even, like in Olympic Peninsula, where I facilitate retreats. I have some, some that I just love to go on all the, you know, all the time and but it's always different every single time. Because, you know, slowing down, paying attention, opening up to these things, I always see something different, or the weather. Of course, the weather changes all the time. We know that I love, that sometimes I don't love that just depends. And, you know, the seasons that we get, the changing of the leaves, snow, those kind of things, and really add this interesting element to your experience in the natural world. Yeah, there have been two times over that time that there's been enough snow to cross country ski at Seward, only two times, only two times. But that was kind of a fun, unique experience. Yeah, yeah, too. But yeah, you're like, oh, this place is so familiar, and now it looks completely different because now there's snow or whatever. Cool. Okay, Matthew, I would love to hear some of your so obviously this is something you can engage in anywhere your yard, the closest Park to your home, the picnic table in your workplace, you know, anywhere like that. However, I'd love to know what some of your favorite places are in Washington for like hiking trails or places for connecting with nature. Okay? I, I am well versed on the western part of the state, and not as well versed on the eastern part. So these are going to be pretty heavy on the west, western part. That's okay, because we have other episodes where we've talked about the eastern part, yeah, and I can also weigh in on that a little bit too, yeah, yeah. I if you are, if you are interested in, in in deepening your relationship with the natural world and practicing that, then I would encourage shorter trails so there's less of the environmental there's less of the desire to go faster, maybe, or to reach a certain thing. So let's start in the city. West High Level sweat lens Park is in Federal Way, and it's basically an untouched bog that's 1000s of years old. And if you want mystical, you want magic, you want to see what that might feel like. It's not a very long trail. It's on a boardwalk, so it's good year round. But go there and and just spend some time walking slowly. It's a magical place in the middle of Federal Way. Yeah. Thought, yeah. So that's one of my favorites, that and the. That's wonderful in the city. Bellevue botanical has some trails in a forested area and a bridge. So those are some of my favorites in in the city, I love the walk around five mile drive in Tacoma in a point defiance Park. My mom is from Ruston, and so I grew up going up there, but there are a lot of trails out there, and now they've closed the five mile drive as for for cars. Okay, so now there's less car traffic there, and it's, it's some old trees and bluffs, and there's Owens beach there. And so that's wonderful for the Tacoma area. I I love the spruce road trail by Lake crescent, yeah, Olympic National Park. Olympic National Park. Yeah, that's on the Olympic Peninsula. I love that because it's it's flat, it's accessible. And I recommend starting on the I have to get my directions right, because the lake actually goes east, west, so I always think of north, south, but it on the on the west. I recommend starting on the western side. Okay? Because on the eastern side, people want to go to the devil's punch bowl, an area there's an attraction there, and there's less, there's fewer people that start on the west side. Yeah, it's 12 miles round trip. And so another thing that's really nice about that one is that you can make that how you can make that, whatever length you want goes along Lake crescent. It's beautiful, and that's probably one of my more recent favorites. I love the carbon River area of like, Mount Rainier, yes, love it. Love it. Love it. Have an episode about that. Yeah, fantastic. Mount Rainier. Of course, we don't have to argue with we're not gonna argue with each other on that one, I think, just everywhere there, yes, but I like, I love the soul of the carbon River area, yeah, yeah. And it's so quiet compared to the rest of Mount Rainier National Park. It's just awesome, yeah. And even the drive up the approach there these little towns, it's it's a different experience for Mount Rainier than the more of some of the kind of hustle and bustle things, absolutely yeah. And then Lake quenault is one of my favorite all time, favorite parts of Washington. Yeah, I love the lodge because it's quirky and historic. But the lodge is great, even if you're not staying there, because out the door, throw a rock and you you hit a trail that you get on, and you start instantly with old growth, Douglas fir the Quinault Loop Trail is fantastic. It can be, you can be four miles, it can be two miles. And you get seat, you get bogs and cedar trees and waterfalls and old growth and all this beauty in a really succinct area, yeah. And there are also parts of that that are accessible. Yep, I love, I love that part of the Olympic National Park, yeah, and it's accessible, you know, year round. Yep. And they Lake Quinault lodge often has some good special rates in the winter for Washingtonians. That's right. So I'd say it's worth getting it on their email list, because you'll get something that's like, it's$107 a night and the month of February or something. Oh, yeah, bad, yeah. I like to go in the winter because of those rates that the different rates that they have. So definitely look at that. And they have different kinds of rooms. I've stayed there many times. I have a blog post about it. I just love it. But they have, you know, they have rooms that are pet friendly. They have rooms that are accessible. They have a variety of different things, not just the rooms in the lodge, The Lodger, you know, Lodge is 100 and well, 100 years old, so it's more, you know, a little bit restricted some of those things, but some of the other areas, I was going to take my parents there over the over the Thanksgiving holiday. So I was researching the rooms that could be accessible for my mom can't really go up and down stairs and things like that, yep. But I love that area. Kessner homestead isn't talked about much, so that's my secret place. I'll just not a secret, not a secret anymore. And, but there's lots of hikes in that area that I think are just exquisite. And, and then, being from Oregon, I also love the southern Washington coast Long Beach area and and beaches are special. I don't think I have to tell anyone why beaches are special, but they're nice for slowing down your brain. Yeah, because you're walking on, if you're walking, let's say on a sandy beach, like Long Beach, you can walk for miles and miles and miles. Or Westport has a great beach. Westport light Beach is fantastic. Yeah, and. And, and then you're not really, there's something about that repetition of walking on sand. You're not is, you know, your brain starts to slow down, yeah, and you get that connection and, and that's probably the easiest place to go to really practice, like resetting your brain and slowing down. But those are some of my favorites on the coast. Yeah, love it. I'm just thinking about when you see someone doing, like, really focused, running on the beach. And always strikes I mean, it's go for it, running on the beach. I'm all for it, but always strikes me the like, sort of purposefulness of it always seems a little incongruous, but like, what's happening? Yeah, that's right, that's right, yeah, chariots of fire on the beach, yeah, yes, exactly. You know, there's a couple of while you were talking, I thought of a couple other things I would mention for everybody that I think are kind of examples for me of some of those places that, not so much places, but kinds of places. I think I told you this before, but before, I was a hiking guide here in Washington, which was like shortly before the pandemic, right? So not that long ago, up until that point I am, I'm kind of horrified to say that I didn't really appreciate trees. I just, I was like, trees, whatever. And I'm not proud of that, but I think when I was taking guests to places where they were like, Whoa, that's a big tree, and I'm like, yeah, that is actually a really big tree. Like, during that time, I really started to think and learn and appreciate more about trees and forests and ecosystems. And you know, like I researched and wrote a blog post about where there are old growth trees in Seattle, which is quite a few places like Seward Park that you mentioned earlier, and Schmidt's Park in West Seattle are two that come to mind right away. And so I'm sharing that because now experiences with trees are pretty profound for me, but that was that's only been the case maybe in the last eight years or so. And then I also, since you said, you know that you hadn't spent as much time in eastern Washington, I was just gonna say that one of the cool things about Washington is how diverse it is as far as landscapes. And if you live on the west side, and you go to do a hike in eastern Washington, it kind of just how different it is is enough to kind of blow your mind. Yeah, and I think that's kind of a different angle from what we've talked about. But, like, I think of it as jostling, like when your brain is just literally looking at something different, I think that can make it a little bit easier to see or to be. Yeah, then, and I think now I've, I've learned more, including from you, about how to, like, have that experience with something familiar. But I think it came to me first in like a Whoa, this is a sage brush. What is that? Yeah, yeah. I mean, I remember being a kid and being in eastern Washington, and I know Eastern Oregon is similar, and you'd just like, be driving across I 90, and there would just be these, like, rolling, you know, piles of Tumbleweed. And I was just like, what is that? My parents were like, oh, it's Tumbleweed. It's like, what? Yeah, yeah, yeah. And if you ask someone out there, they'd be just like, oh, there's Tumbleweed everywhere, and it blows around and all, like, gumming up my fence and whatever, yeah, yeah, absolutely, absolutely, yeah. And I grow, you know, growing up in the Portland area, I've spent a lot of time in Eastern Oregon, so exactly your points well placed, because this state is diverse and wild and all these different places for sure, yeah, and yeah, it's really that, that shock of something different, even like a you can drive, you know, 90 minutes outside of Seattle, and you get to the drier areas, yeah, get to that and, yeah, there's a lot to be said for that diversity in the state, for sure, and that's really, I mean, Oregon and California are similar, but, I mean, I think that's one thing that's really cool about the West Coast is just how many different climates and landscapes We have in such a small area. Yeah, yeah. One more. One more area that I'll share is st, Mount St. Helens also has a one is, it's a very, it's a very powerful place. Spiritually, I find Yeah. I think many people find that it's yeah. Science the South, the southeastern part of the mountain wasn't as damaged by the eruption on the 18th so there's a lot of places there that have beautiful hikes. And the Lewis Falls area is amazing. I like that too, because you can craft that. You could make that a longer hike. Can make it a shorter hike. And as far as I know, last summer, it required a untimed entry permit for $3 and I think they probably will do that this summer. Yeah, well, when this is airing in the summer, yeah, but, but, but barring that, getting, you know, getting that pass, and then there's no, and if you're gonna do this, there's no Wi Fi up there. So you need to be prepared. To be prepared, have that ahead of time. There's no Wi Fi for miles, which is fantastic, yeah, but that's also wonderful place for the diversity of, you know, rock formations and waterfalls and trees and and rock scrambles and hiking all those kinds of things. Yeah, yeah. I love Mount St Helens, too. It's just such I think it's interesting because I was five when it erupted, and so now that it's been 45 years since that happened, it's just so interesting to see what's recovered quickly, and what's clearly going to take generations to, you know, or maybe never be the same, because, like, Spirit Lake wasn't there, or not. Spirit Lake, the other Lake, cold water. Cold water lake was Yeah, Spirit Lake was there. What am I saying? It changed a lot, but it changed a lot, but it's still there, yeah. So that kind of thing is just so fascinating. It's almost like you can see it happen in real time, which is pretty cool. Well, and the wonderful thing my nature videos, like nature connection videos are usually with a theme. And so I've done a I've done a few shorter videos, and then one like 20 minute meditation video with Mount St Helens, but it's, it's a wonderful symbol for resiliency, yeah, because here this mountain, especially on the side where, you know, the eruption flew down the Toutle River. So the video I have right now is at the hummocks trail. Oh, yeah. And that literally was reshaped by boiling, boiling water from the glaciers that melted and and, and. So it's a powerful, it's a powerful message about nature and resiliency. And so that's a place, that's a place where I went when I was really just struggling with all the change happening, the quick change happening, yeah, and it really gave me some ground and gave me anger to say, okay, like, I can, I can do this. I'm resilient, yeah? And I put that into the video, so the messages are there, embedded into that, but Mount St Helens is a wonderful place to go for that symbolism. Yeah, yes. And when you're deepening in nature, you get the symbolism. And then, you know, these lessons just come out of the woodwork, whether it's, it's the big obvious of this volcano or the more subtle things, yeah, but that's an example of the way that the connection in nature can can help you in the times where you need it the most. Yeah, that's awesome. Okay, so, Matthew, if people who are listening want to check out your work. See your cool YouTube videos, go on one of your experiences with you. How can they do that? And I will put all these links in the show notes. Everybody sure tell everyone about kind of how that works. Well, my my handle on pretty much everything, and my website is Kessie world.com and that's k, e, s, s, I, W, O, R, L, d.com, and from there, you can launch into the in person experiences. I do a version of forest bathing at the Washington Park Arboretum, the three day weekend retreats usually are in the spring and the fall. And then the YouTube channel is also Kessie rolled and that has a growing catalog of videos that are designed to they're really there to help people envision what it might look like to form their own nature connection. So so they're guided through beautiful scenery in the Pacific Northwest and also growing in other parts of the world, and that's where I help you, and you can listen to what I have to say, or you can just watch the the scenery, or do a little bit of both, but it's really designed to help you find your own way to connect to the natural world and and that's a growing catalog on on YouTube. Cool under Kessie world, awesome. Yeah, love it. Well, Matthew, thank you so much for coming and talking about this with everybody today. Yeah, thank you for having me. And thank you to all you out there listening and hope that I'll see you down the road. Yes, sounds good. Bye for now, everyone you. If you're enjoying the podcast, we would love to have you leave us a rating or review wherever you're listening that will really help other people find us. And don't forget, there's a link to Craig's books and my email list in the show notes you

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