The Washington State Hiking Podcast

Should the Enchantments be closed?

• Jennie Thwing Flaming and Craig Romano • Episode 85

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 Welcome to the Washington State Hiking Podcast. I'm your host, Jennie Thwing Flaming, 

and I'm your co-host Craig Romano.

Craig and I are happy to have you here. We provide practical and timely seasonal hiking advice for hikers, trail runners, and potential hikers and trail runners of all skill and ability levels that is helpful, accurate, fun, and inclusive.

 Hey, Craig. Hi, Jennie. Well. I think it's time to really introduce a, a, um, non-controversial topic. Okay. So, uh, those of you out there in the hiking world, which I assume everybody was listening to this, , I've been noticing, lately in some forums, and then,, if you're a reader of Seattle Met Magazine.

Mm-hmm. Uh, Allison Williams had just wrote an article. Basically it said it's time to shut down the, the Enchantments, the Enchantment. It's time to shut down the enchantments. And I'm seeing this, , in a lot of, um, forums about people like lock it up and throw it away for a while.

And so I thought, Hmm, this sounds like something that maybe you and I should be talking about. Yes, 

I agree. I thought about it so many times this summer we, while we were out doing things, scene. Article, not just about the Enchantments, but there's been quite a few articles as people know a lot I think over the summer of like, whoa, this is really not, there's 

been TV specials.

Yeah. And, and uh, you know, some of our more ethical influences out there have been addressing this, you know, not the influencers that are sending you there, you know? Yeah, yeah. Willy-nilly. But there's actually been some really good stuff online. Um, you know, 

one thing too, um, if you're not familiar with Wenatchee Outdoors listeners.

Oh, there, that's, Wenatchee Outdoors is great. Yeah. Wonderful resource and. Um, Andy Dappen. Andy Din, yeah. I believe he's the editor of Wenatchee Outdoors. Um, he wrote an article several years ago about giving the Enchantments a break. He was ahead of his time on that. It was, it was, and it, I would really encourage you to go back and find that article and read it because it was very thoughtful and nuanced, and I really appreciated.

What he said about that topic. 

Now, let's just back up for a minute on this. Say you're brand new to the area and yeah, what are these enchantments that. Th speaketh of, yes. Um, so what are we 

even talking about? 

So, you know, it's kind of interesting because I'm, what are 

we talking about, Craig? 

So what are, so, you know, I moved out here in 1989 and I like many hikers back in the day, the source was Harvey Manning Iris Spring, a hundred hikes in the Alpine Lakes, and remember Harvey even.

And 

who does that book now, Craig? 

Well, I do the day hiking series, as matter of fact, the Enchantments are in my day hiking Central Cascades and in my Backpacking Washington book, because how could I not? Speak about these places. So yes, I've been there. Yes, yes, I've done the through hike like many in a day.

Uh, we can talk about that and, and I'm gonna, um, we're, well, we got a lot to talk about in this. We do, but the thing is, if you, if you don't know what this area is, it is, um, a beautiful, uh, back country lake area outside of Leavenworth. Okay. Uh, parts of it look like the, like the High Sierra, the granite, the lakes and everything like that.

It's beautiful. It is beautiful. Uh, it's exceptionally beautiful right now because of the, of the Alpine large. Um, and what has happened, it's notoriety. Uh, it's popularity. It's just gone bonkers people. Um, the, you know, the Instagrammers are on every, everybody wants to be there. Everybody wants to be.

Almost to the point it's like you would think it was the only place in the state worth hiking that people absolutely go crazy. Yeah. Now there is a permitting system to camp there. Okay. Dogs are not allowed, uh, in this area. 

Can you actually, Craig, can you go back a little bit? Can you talk about like. How, 'cause I think a really important thing here is the backpacking versus through hiking thing.

Oh yeah. So I'm gonna definitely talk about that. Talk about how, like how long the trail is, how much elevation ga, like how, and we're ta And also, I'm gonna just say that we're talking about the core enchantment zone, right. Here, which I have not been to, I have been to Lake Stewart and I have been to Kch, Chuck Lake.

I mean the lake that shall not be named. Right, that's the lake in case you're 

all wandering out there. I, 

I have day hiked to Kch and I have had a backpacking permit for Lake Stewart. Both times was at this time of year, during large season. Right. I, I don't know how many years I put in for the lottery.

About two years ago. I, I. Decided I wasn't gonna do it anymore anyway, so yeah, continue. So tell us, yeah, so a little bit about how difficult it is and then about the 

Yeah, it is, it's actually, so the encampments up, the, what used to be the traditional approach, people tend to be taking the back door away.

Now I'll talk about it. It is a very, very long hike. Yeah. Up Snow Creek. Snow to snow lakes. That in itself, the snow lakes is a day hike for strong hikers, though, that's just the beginning to get beyond in there. For most people, they'll backpack in and spend, it's a whole core of Alpine Lakes and there's a little bit of scrambling.

It's raw, it's gorgeous. But what's happened, because the permitting system, which needed to be done and, and incidentally it was it, it. It has been in place since the 1980s. It's been on for a long time. I was gonna ask you if you knew when the large Yeah. In the eighties for the permitting. Yeah. Uh, because it's had that kind of notoriety and, and, and, and the crowding.

It's fragile and everything. Yeah. From the very beginning. What's interesting, we're not keeping up with it, but I'll talk about that. Um, so what's happened now with the, the advent of trail running and the lighter gear and everything, it's. People who, who can't get a permit to backpack or they just don't want to.

Uh, it's become very, very popular in the trail running community to do it in a day. Yeah. And to do it in a day, it's about 19 miles minimum if you do the side 2021 with a lot of elevation. Yeah. Okay. And 

including like as guard pass. Yes. 

And what people are tend in this scramble. Right. And what you tend to do, if you're gonna do it in one way.

Or backpackers again against the Harvey Manning way, who would tell you to go the long way up and everything? Most people will do the climb first, and then you come out the long way. So this means Asgard Pass means 

going in on the lake on cold Chuck Trail going up over Asgard Pass and then entering the core enchantments and then going and then 

going out.

Yeah. That's how most through hikers will do this. Yep. What's happening and that's 

what most backpackers do also, right? Yeah. I think, 

yeah. Now Ascar Pass, you know, it was, is not easy and it was far more dangerous. It's still dangerous. I mean, it's far more in the past because snow levels have changed.

There's times when it never melted out, but there's still usually very dangerous snow runs in there. Yeah, you're all exposed. Lightning storms are common. In this area. So people, people have died on this. Yeah. Um, and, and 

believe that two people have died there this summer. This, 

yeah. And it's, and and sometimes it's bad luck.

Things happen other times. Many times. Especially now people are unprepared. Yeah. They're seeing the pretty pictures. They're going out, don't realize. And they're getting themselves into trouble. Search and rescue is well aware of the area. Um, so you have that, you have that issue. You also have, again, it's fragile environment.

So what's happened in the area, the whole idea was the permits is to, because the carrying capacity can only take so many people. Great. But with all these through hikers and trail runners coming through, well guess what? They're still using those trails. So they're putting them, but they're also using the back country bathrooms.

Okay. That, that the permit, the backpack are paying a permit fee. 

Right 

to use to get that. 'cause it costs a lot of money to helicopter those things out of there. Right. 

Going back to our, our outhouse episode. Yeah. Yeah. And I know I 

worked, I worked a summer, you know, compost, a compost toilet, let me tell you.

It, it literally stinks, but it needs to be done. It's labor intensive and it's cost and the through hikers, the truck are not paying for any of this. They're just buzzing right through. So they are putting an impact on it. And again. I'm not put, I have done this or I don't want you to think I'm sitting there.

I'm not putting, yeah. I've done this in a day.

So you have all these, the trash, and again, they've had articles you can read about this stuff, about how many pounds of garbage and human waste are being taken out. 

And I'm sure. Many of our listers have read those article.

You're well aware of this articles 

that you and I have, and I'd be curious how many of you out there are are like me, have no desire. To see the enchantments again. Again, this is what's interesting. There are places on this planet that I know are incredibly spectacular. I'm never gonna get to, and I'm okay with that.

And even though I've been to the enc, if I never see the enchantments again, I'm okay with that. You know, I write guidebooks. I've written 26. There were so many places I could. In Washington and beyond. Yeah. And that's what drives me nuts. People act like it's the only place in town. It's like, I've gotta be there.

It's like the cool nightclub. It's like, I gotta be seen here. Nobody wants to go to that stupid club over here. But the thing is, a lot of those stupid other lakes are just as spectacular and you're gonna get something else there. You're gonna get solitude. Yeah. So. So what's happening now, a lot of people are saying, you know enough, this is crazy, the abuse, the government's not doing anything because they've been eviscerated.

You know, there's no way to manage down there. So people are saying, it's let's, let's shut 'em down, let's just give 'em a break. And it's getting some serious talk out there about people, you know, like close gate the road. So now you gotta walk 10 miles up a road again. That's it. Close it down. So it's, it's creating some interesting, um, fodder, uh, uh, the trail fodder conversation.

So yeah. 

So let's just review what the problem is. Yes, 

it's, 

you've got this spectacular place. So again, core Enchantments, I haven't been there. You have? Mm-hmm. And I appreciate you acknowledging that, Craig, because I think I feel the same as you actually. And I haven't been there, but sometimes when I tell people like, you know, there's other places that are just as good as this famous place and I have been there, I feel kind of hypocritical about it.

Right, right. Because I'm like, that's easy for me to say. I've, I've had this opportunity, just like for example, I've had the opportunity to see Bears in Cat, my national park. Nice. At Brooks Falls. Nice. I've been very lucky to be able to do that. My opinion is that the bear viewing in Lake Clark National Park is a better visitor experience.

But I'm very aware when I tell people that I've been lucky enough to do both and, and I get that this. Picture of Brook Fall, Brooks Falls as what people have in their head. I think the enchantments is the same. So I think it's very interesting that like you've been to the core enchantments. I have not, and it, and it shows this.

We kind of are landing. Now this is different from the policy, but you and I are both saying personally, this isn't something that we want to. Do. And then the pol we'll get to the policy question in, well, well, it's also interest on 

this too, so I don't want people to think like I'm a hypocrite either.

It's like, well, you've been there, Romano, so now it's easy for you. And I haven't stated my opinion what I think yet. You haven't, but here's the interesting thing. For so long reading the, and I'm the type of person, I just like to go on whims to things. Lots of times I, I plan out my week ahead of time, see what the weather is.

And because of this,, this permitting and everything, it's always, to me it would seem like so much of a hassle. And there were so many other places. So I like it. Never was on my list I to, but all of sudden now I'm writing these books. And like, oh God, I gotta actually have to go there now because, you know, I write ab I everything I I write about, I go to.

So that finally forced me. 'cause I was like in, no, I mean, again, there's so many spectacular places out there that are far less of a hassle to get to with a, with far fewer people. So I was in no hurry to whether I saw, which is, I guess this puts me in a very different, it didn't matter to me if I saw them or not.

Um, they are pretty, yes, it is the prettiest place I've seen in Washington. No. I, what is the prettiest, you know, that's a good que I'd say Image Lake is probably one of my favorite places. I absolutely love Image Lake. Where is Image Lake? It's in the Glacier Peak Wilderness. It's a heck of a way to get in there or anything that keeps the crowds down too, but it is truly a spectacular place.

But there's definitely other places too. The, the Buckhorn Wilderness Area. Yeah, the High Divide, which is a, which is a popular place, but still not as crazy as, uh, as the Enchantments. I've done the high divide. Several times, you know? Yeah. Backpacking and day trips. I love that place. Uh, and even with the crowds, I've never really had like, negative experiences in there.

Yeah. Um, so the Enchantment has always been kind of like, oh my, it's just one of those places. Yeah. Like, and you, again, you read, you, you love 'em, you hate 'em. Um, but I think again, how with the internet now with Insta, I mean it's, it, it is just become this overnight, not overnight. It's been years now. Yeah. I was gonna say 40 years.

Yeah. And, and, and usually a lot of these, these Instagram favorite hikes. Some of them, they fall out of favor after a while, what's, you know, what's gonna be the hike du jour this, this one has stayed in. Like 

remember when High Rock was really caught up on the internet 

and you know what's big now? And the only I could, and this is I can, this is how I can figure out what's, it's a 

great 

hike.

Well it is a great, the big one now, unfortunately, 'cause people are gonna get in trouble on this one. And I realized it's an Instagram family when I started seeing posts from some of my friends who are not big time hikers and they're doing this one. Vesper Vesper is now an in, I thought 

you were gonna say Matt Fremont.

I think that one's been popular and maybe fading a little bit. And Fremont's actually, you know, a, a, a fairly safe hike. Vesper is a scramble that you people die on as well. And all of a sudden, everyone wants that picture now. And now here we go again. But that's another, we'll save vesper for another talk.

Um, but so the enchantments for me has always been one of those things. Again, I guess I'm not the good example 'cause I've always been the type of person who doesn't go with the crowd. If everyone likes it, I'm skeptical. It's just that's the way I was raised. Yeah. I'm, 

I'm kind of that way. Two, I, I think we share that kind of like, eh.

Yep. I 

don't know. Um, like I've been to 

Yosemite Valley once every else has been there. I don't know. Right. But go. So say I've been to Yosemite Valley once, it's spectacular. Everything, but let me tell you what's really at Kings Canyon. Nobody goes there. It's right next to Yosemite. That's the kind of person I am.

Yeah. Yeah. Me too. Yep. 

Um. And it's funny because we both have jobs where we have to go to a famous places and that's what 

ha and matter of fact, that's, that's what gets me to somebody place eventually. And sometimes it's so worth it. And sometimes, yeah, and sometimes, sometimes I just have to bite the bullet and go to some of these.

When I was writing these books, there was hikes, like, oh, I really don't want to do that hike. And I've had to, and I've had to do it, you know, for my work. And people are like, wow, it sounds tough, Ramono. But 

yeah, that's real. Okay, so getting back to our question around the policy, right? So we've got this.

Regardless of how you and I feel about it, right? 

We haven't stated that yet. 

We've got a situation where an incredibly sensitive ecological area, 

very thin soils, the the lay, I mean the water quality, the plants, right? The goats, 

fragile alpine environment. For 40 years, people have known it needed protection.

So there's this backpacking. A permit system in place, but that is no longer adequate, 

right 

for the increased pressure of day hiking. I 

think there's some like couple thousand people day going through there on the weekend on some of these weekends. 

And also, um, I read recently that a backpacking permit for the Enchantments is the most difficult backcountry permit to.

When, yeah, it didn't surprise me. Yeah. So, 

which again, it's crazy. Think about all those other places out there. 

So at the moment when there's like one ranger for this area because of government, there was 

12 before the the musk cuts 

and the shelan. As I understand it, the Chelan County Sheriff's Department has like four people who can, or maybe it's the search and rescue.

I'm not sure. Only, I think the sheriff has come on record, like shut it down. There's only like four people who can respond to emergencies there who are in the area. Okay. So those are facts. That's obviously creating a situation that is damaging this fragile environment and is unsafe for people. 'cause there have been.

There's been an increase in kind of human caused problems. Also in the parking too. The parking, we just address down in danger for people. Yeah. Okay. Yeah. So that's the situation. So the question is, should this area be closed? So Craig, yeah. So a lot of people, do you wanna say what you think first? So, so a lot 

of people are saying it's.

Time, and I'm 

curious to see if we agree about 

this. Yeah. So should we shut down the enchantments and give them a break? And, and, and, and the re and, and the reason it goes like this, basically, um, give 'em a reprieve. Give, give the time the area to recover, get it fixed. Maybe, hopefully we'll have a better system in place where we actually have people working in there again soon.

Right now, with all its problems, that's kind of what a lot of people are leaning. Do I believe in that? Do I think it should be shut down completely? And the answer is no. I don't. 

Why not? 

Okay. Because I, I, I, I think that creates a bad precedent for one that. That's not how we deal with land management issues.

Mm-hmm. Um, am I against shutting down things, you know, temporarily? No. No. And sometimes, like in grizzly bear situations, trails, the Canadian park system shuts down trails all the time for that reason. Um, I have a better plan that we, well, actually I have, so in a perfect, perfect world, we'd actually have things funded again.

Okay. But the other thing, should the numbers be limited? Absolutely. Yeah. And the issue that needs to be addressed and why, I don't understand why it hasn't yet. 'cause Oregon does this. You've got to limit day hikers. Mm-hmm. Day use. That's where it's all coming. And again, think about this. You waited for that permit for a certain experience.

You get in there, you know, there's only X amount of. Backpackers, you're in there, but there's just a train of day hikers and trail runners zipping through the trail. Yeah. Constantly Anyway, so you're really not getting that. The reason why we're limiting the numbers is, you know, to, to lower the impact in the area.

They just, right. They're just not spending the night, but they're still using the trail. They're still using the PRIs, they're still creating noise issues and everything else. So I think why we have not limited day hiking. I is beyond me because the Mount Jefferson wilderness has done this in Oregon and I don't, and there's 

places we have it in Washington too.

Yeah. Mount St. Helen's. Mount St. Helen's a great 

example. Right? So why is it 

Hurricane Ridge and Paradise and Sunrise? Those are all in national. We've 

done that with, with car. I know a lot of other, now you look, you know, across the Zion's doing it, we limiting cars. You have to take public transportation to get in.

Right. That, that's not, I wanna make sure I'm clear. There's not a permit required at Mount Rainier. In Paradise Sunrise. Right. Or Hurricane Bridge. But they limit, they limit the cars. Yeah. Who can get in there? And so that limits, so I just wanna make sure I'm, and you could do that. Clear about that. You could 

do that.

The enchantment would be another interesting thing too, the way the long approach. Again, it's gonna, it would require having somebody stationed there that's gonna require money. But if you had, you know, you're paying into the system, and if it was managed properly, it would all work. And then again, I don't know how some people feel, to me it's kind of like you get what you pay for.

Uh, you know, I've spent a lot of time in, in, in Canadian parks and I've paid a lot of fees there and everything, but, you know, I'm getting, I'm, I see what I'm getting. Yeah. You know, in return. Um, so you're always gonna, people like, I shouldn't be, I shouldn't pay for this. Well, yeah, that's great. And everything.

Then our taxes need to be raised. 'cause the money has to come somewhere. 

Right. Somehow we have to pay for it. 

Yeah. So that's a whole different, I'm not gonna get into argument with that, but, but the thing is too, could you manage. Cars going to the trailhead, you'd have um, you have the one road A you have two access, so you could do it on one of them, not the other one would be more difficult.

Um, I think the o obvious thing is having a permit system where you had back country rangers that check permitting to, to make sure it's enforced and, um, see where it goes from there. Um, again, and then of course, you know, there's so many alternative places so you don't get your permit. We talked about having plan B and plan C and all that.

Yeah. You know, in my day, hiking. Central Cascade book. And it's funny, I mean, there's all these other hikes, drive up the icicle on the approach. You're gonna be behind a line of cars and then all of a sudden they're all, 85% of 'em are gonna turn off to the, you know, going up to go and you keep going like, there's nobody here.

And you get, and I can't tell you how many times I've been to the Chicas or Cradle Lake or these other areas, uh, blackjack mount, all these plays in the valley where I'm the only one there. A couple. It's insane. Um. The beau, it's still just as beautiful. It's amazing. And, and yeah, and, and just had the impact.

So you have these alternatives, but, um, we have to do something about, uh, I, I think the status quo is unacceptable and I think from what I've read in hiking forums and a lot that most people I think are, had the realization that is unacceptable, that something it, this has to be addressed. Yeah. So if Jennie puts your take, 

um, shut it down, basically.

I agree with you. With maybe a couple other for all the reasons you said. I think in general the there is a problem, so we'll block access to a place is not, as a public policy, is not one that I support. Whether that is this location or it's a park in downtown Seattle. Um, I think that our public lands.

Are an important treasure that we need to make a high priority for people to be able to get to. So I hold that as a value. And whether that's a city park or a wilderness area, it's the same. Now, of course, those need different management tools, right? I'm not saying it would be the same, but in general, I don't support closing an area.

Just because we're fed up, 

right? You have like in the city park if you had issues. Um, right. The easy thing is just, just to close the park and everybody suffers as opposed to a much harder decision addressing the problems and fixing it. I agree. 

Yes. So I think now I would support a temporary closure.

Okay. 

Um, 

I probably would too though. It's not what I, but 

I would want it to have a clear. Timeline Yeah. Of what's gonna happen and a management plan closure and what and when the plan is gonna be rolled out for me to support that. But I would, I think, you know, despite what I just said, I also think, again, Jay does a lot of search and rescue work and, um, that statewide, and I, I think we need to be telling the story and raising the empathy.

For rural sheriffs departments like Chelan County, they're, they're overtaxed on this kid attacks County, Skamania County. Those are just the first three that came to my mind. There are others where it's a rural county with huge numbers of people from King County, Snohomish County, Pierce County. Um, I think to a lesser degree Clark County, like in the Gorge or Portland, Eske Mania County we say, or like the Bellingham area, um, that it just isn't fair to ask a rural sheriff's department or a volunteer team to, to take care of that.

Many people. Yeah. I it, you know, king County Search and Rescue I, and I'm sure others as well. I just know about them. They definitely support searches in these other places. So does the military. That's something I really wanna do in episode, I'm gonna talk to Jay about getting someone from, we should actually do something 

on the host surgery.

And again, you know, I'm from New Hampshire and New Hampshire, very, very controversial. And a lot of people looking, you have to buy a, a card, a search and rescue card. Uh, or you can be fined. Yeah. And so I've started to see in a lot of the forum up here that maybe it's time to start doing the New Hampshire method here too.

And there's a lot of things, why that's not a good idea as opposed to, so I think we should definitely talk about that. Yeah. And the other thing we should address too, we've talked about Yes. There's been a deluge of, of, of, you know, west, west side people particularly, and these more rural counties. But let's be fair here too, these, these rural counties are benefiting economically from these, from from the west.

Yeah. Sometimes. Sometimes they're, I mean, the businesses, it depends. The businesses are, you know, it depends. Leavenworth would be a shrivel if it wasn't, you know, I mean, they, they, you know, they're making a lot of money these businesses. That isn't true in every place where this No, it's not. You're absolutely right.

It's not true. It's. Easy. I'm 

putting that in. Air quotes drive from Seattle, then people don't spend money. Yeah, no, you, that's a 

good point. Um, I know, but you also, so I know 'cause again, I live, you know, I live in Skagit County and I hear every year about people complaining about, you know, the TU Fest, but you know how much money that brings into our economy.

Right? But that still doesn't mean people can just come up and just do whatever the hell they feel like it, you know. Right all over the place, so, so there should be some, and I think more and more, again, this ties in what we're saying. I'm reading in Europe, but a lot of people are starting to get fed up with this because.

It's not sustainable. The tourism is not people, there's towns in Europe are saying enough. I mean, we're being overrun by tourists and bad behavior and we don't want it anymore, even though they've always depended on this. So I think the enchantments are very much in that same, and I think category. I think the 

enchantments in Leavenworth is a, is kind of a special case.

I'm just thinking about what we talked about a couple weeks ago with the North Cascades. When I drive to the North Cascades from the greater Seattle area. There are no towns right. That I drive through Right. That are in Right. Nobody's benefiting an area that are in. Um, I mean the towns that I drive through to go there are, that have businesses that I could go to.

And I love going to local businesses when I hike. Right. It's one of my favorite things about it. But they are all in Snohomish County. Right. Which is the same county that I live in, which is great. But like that's an example where when we talked about this extreme pressure along Highway 20. I'm sure that Winthrop benefits from that a little bit, but, but it's not.

Like they're gonna get some lodging taxes from people who say, but for people who are day tripping, that's not doing 

anything. Job day, day tripping. Right. Yeah. There'd be some restaurant like concrete in what there's, there's a handful of restaurants there that will definitely get hikers coming back and it definitely makes a difference.

Absolutely. And when that highways close, they feel it. And same thing you can ask, the fires closing a lot of these, there's towns that are being devastated. Yes. Um, so there's definitely an economic impact on all this stuff. Yeah. What I, 

what I'm saying is like. The benefit to a small business from us stopping there on our way back from our hike, which.

Man, if you could do one thing for small businesses, just do that. Just stop at a small business after every hike. But that isn't going to equal the cost to a rural sheriff's department. Right. It's, it's not gonna, it's an important thing to do. It doesn't really solve problem. Right. The funding, the funding 

has to be different in that case.

Yeah. Absolutely. Yeah. 

So I think going back, just to kind of wrap up the policy part, I, I think that a permit for Dave. You for all use there is necessary. I have complicated feelings about permits 'cause I think they're often rolled out in a way that's very unfair that benefits people who already have the most access to the outdoors.

And I don't like that. And there's 

a lot of, a lot of things backing what you're saying. Yeah. But there 

are things that could be done to address that. So for example, a certain amount of permits could be held back for people who live in Shalan County. For example, or for, um, I don't, I don't know what that would look like, but I, I know that that problem can be address, 

but the only, where that gets tricky in places like this is that it's a national forest.

Yeah. And, and I know, and in, you know, and in theory though, someone living in Wenatchee has no more say to that land than someone living in Fort Lauderdale. 

I agree. So, 

yeah. So that's some of the things you have to address. 

Yeah. The point of that was. There, there are things you can do with permitting other than just slap a permit on it, right.

And not, um, address, like, how can we give people a chance at getting this permit? You know, there's lots of other places that that comes up, like with campgrounds where people will just reserve. If you have money, you can just reserve a ton of campgrounds and you only. Intend to go to one of them. Right. And that's not fair.

And then that's taken away from somebody else. So, and British 

Columbia has addressed, I think you start fining people, they give you an enormous fine if you don't cancel. Exactly. Because that you're, you're trying to game the system and where money doesn't matter to you. Yeah. You're locking out a lot of people where maybe it does, you know, there's, it's just not right.

There's 

also ways to make it so that. There's a certain amount of permits that are available at the last minute and Right. Or that are available for walk-ins. Right. There's too and tradition. 

There used to be a lot of that too and there's less of it now, 

but, but there, that's one that I wanna see. I know it's a national forest, but it's our state that that needs to own this problem.

And I think that we have a lot of smart people here who know a lot, and I think we can find a way to implement a fair. Um, a fair support system statewide for search and rescue and a fair way to give people, to give people access. And, you know, it'll be limited, but I think we know that we need that and I think we can offset.

Yeah, and just the benef the downsides of that. And 

just to go what you're saying too, and I wanna make it very clear and I think correct me if you don't agree with me, we're all about. More access, not less. Yes. And in a perfect world, if I was the president through my budget, the Park service and the Forest Service would be funded very, very well.

Yeah. Um, you know, you'll go back to the good old days and you know, when you saw, I mean, there's rangers everywhere and, you know, plenty of trails and campgrounds. I've just watched stuff close and close and close over there. So that's the first start. Again, we, the people, it's our government gotta really make these demands and, and, and, and hold our elected officials accountable.

Yeah. This is what we want. We want more trails, we want more. Opportunities, more campgrounds. And of course, what that do is more jobs and, and, and you get people, especially in these rural areas, uh, that that really can use a lot of Yeah. Use the job. Yeah. So it's a, it's a huge situation. Uh, but yes, shutting it down is not an answer.

On so many levels that you haven't solved the problem for one thing. Yeah. You just kick the can and it's only gonna get worse. Not to mention, you know, then you, then you make outlaws out of, out of a lot of people's behavior too. Yeah. 'cause you know, people are gonna say, well the heck, and, and then people start losing faith in government and, and, and we're dealing with a lot of that right now.

Um, so, you know, we need to be partners in this. And then again, yeah. Organizations, be it the Washington Trail Association, a lot of these friend groups or just watch, you know, WatchGuard organizations that, that adopt these places. And so many parks and wildlife ing, they have these groups. Because we all have an ownership in this.

And the other thing too, when we talk about, alright, we decide it really has to make, we have to make sure that the public is allowed to weigh in on this too. Mm-hmm. People resent an autocratic, I'm sorry, we've got one right now in the White House, but an autocratic type of government. Yeah.

Where, um, you know, this is it. 'cause I say so, and for most people that doesn't go well. We have, you know, have everyone at the table sit and then look at it and tell the majority of people say, this is what we should do. Of course not everyone's gonna be happy, but that's. That, that's as a, that's, yeah. The government, that's life.

You're not gonna be happy on everything. 

It's not just the government, it's living in a society. Right. 

Exactly. I mean, we don't live alone. We're not so, so we're just have to get over that. Um, but you try to make it a consensus to see where most people want to go with this. So, and, and have those voices heard Yeah.

Too, and again, and I, I'm sure you'll agree with this too, and in voices that we've left off out of the table too, like indigenous voices and stuff. That's right. You know, we, you know, we're finally starting to do that in some situations.

I think it's time to start listening. 

Imagine that. 

Maybe it's way beyond time.

Yeah. I 

think it's beyond time. Yeah. Yeah. 

Yeah. Cool. Alright. Well this was a fascinating conversation. We'd love to hear what you 

think. Oh yeah. Readers. So shut it down or keep it open or status quo. Let Yeah, helps let us know. Helps us. Yeah. Text us. Well, I keep saying readers 'cause you know I'm a writer. I know.

I'm listeners. I'm sorry. I mean, I know. Yeah, 

just whenever Craig says, readers just know, he means listeners. 

I hope you're a reader also, I hope you're reading my books as well. Yes, thank you. 

Alright, we'll see you next time. 





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Jennie Thwing Flaming

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Craig Romano

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