The Washington State Hiking Podcast

Should hikers be charged for Search and Rescue?

• Jennie Thwing Flaming and Craig Romano • Episode 90

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Welcome to the Washington State Hiking Podcast. I'm your host, Jennie Thwing Flaming, 

and I'm your co-host Craig Romano.

Craig and I are happy to have you here. We provide practical and timely seasonal hiking advice for hikers, trail runners, and potential hikers and trail runners of all skill and ability levels that is helpful, accurate, fun, and inclusive.

 













 Hey Craig, how's it going? 

Good, Jennie. You know, um, it's really nice out there right now as we're talking and, uh, we just came off a period, some really bad weather and when I look at some of this bad weather, lots of sudden I'm thinking, God, I'm so glad I'm not out there hiking. Um, yeah. People end up going out hiking in some of this bad weather and it doesn't always work out too well for them.

Yeah. Did you, did you follow any of the search and rescue news during this recent storm? 

Not this recent. Uh, I'm sure there's stuff that I haven't seen yet though. Boy, it has been one hell of a year 

it 

has to rescue. Yeah. Um, particularly, I don't know if you've been paying attention in Skamania County. Uh, so that's Mount St.

Helen's as part of the Columbia River Gorge. That's, Stevenson in that area. Their search and rescue, um, up to 200% rise over last year, 200%. Um, and matter of fact, one of the sheriff, the Sheriff's Cian County Sheriff, um, is getting kind of fed up with this. He actually, uh, would like to start charging for Yeah, for right, for negligent.

Reckless hikers. 

Yeah. 

So I think, um, that's kind of, uh, the topic that, uh, we're gonna kind of go in. Do you think people should be charged for being negligent and reckless? Um, and, and first of all, a lot of, a lot of people out there probably might not be aware how search and rescue, uh, works. In the state and in most states, and we'll kind of get into that.

So maybe Jen, you wanna tell, so before we ask, should you be charged? Because right now, if you're out there and you get rescued, you don't get charged in the state of Washington. 

Right? 

So, Joan, you wanna explain perhaps, um 

Sure. 

How that works. 

Yeah. So, um, listeners probably know, um. That my husband, Jay, has done search and rescue work for, for many years, like more than 20.

And, um, in different, he's done mostly different behind the scenes kind of technical support for search and rescue. And he was on the pod last summer. So, uh, you can go back and find that one if you hear, wanna hear more about. About staying safe on the trail, but that's not what we're talking about today, I think.

Okay, so how does it work? I think what's most important for people to know is that if you call for search and rescue on the trail, let's say you have cell service and you call 9 1 1, and by the way, that's what you do, you call 9 1 1, um, and someone answers. Or if you use a Garmin device, like you and I both have Craig, where you can, um, send an emergency signal and communicate with rescuers for help when you don't have cell service, uh, regardless of how you contact them.

And that, that's a whole other episode of like whether or not you need those devices. And we've talked about that before. But, um, the call gets routed to the local sheriff. Basically, right. So I think the first thing to know is that if you are in a very rural area, that sheriff's department might have a handful of employees or sheriffs.

Um, and of course they can always respond to emergencies, but, uh, typically search and rescue calls, whether they're for hikers or mountain bikers or skiers or hunters or, um. Geo Cashers or whatever. Um, typically it will be a volunteer team that responds to that emergency, and that's important to know each, uh, each county in Washington is responsible for.

Having their own team of volunteers and not every county has that. Um, some that desperately need it do not. Uh, but if you think about a place like Skamania County that you mentioned, Craig or Chelan County, which is another one that's very, very busy, or kid Task County, which is like Lum and Ellensburg, very busy here.

I'm using those three in particular because there are lots of hikers and those are very rural areas with very small. Search and rescue teams. And by small, I mean I think Skamania County has two people. Is that, I don't quote me on that. I'm not sure. Yeah, I'm not, I'm not sure on that one yet. So, um, you know, king County, of course has an enormous team of people and they do often provide support to these more rural areas.

But if you need rescue and, you know, you should definitely call for help if you need it. I don't want you to take away from this that, like, you should do that. And 

Ken, what you're saying about a lot of these, um. The, uh, sheriff's work they work with. I know in Washington, the Washington Mountain Rescue Associations, and, and again, there's a whole bunch together in that and, and obviously your King County population base, very large, you know, amount of, uh, volunteers.

Um, Snohomish County, Pierce County, uh, most of the Western county, even Saskatche, where I live, a small county has a very large, uh, search and rescue. So, um, yeah, that's important as you get into the more rural areas, right? Those numbers are gonna, are gonna. Go, go down though. No one's to say you can't send other people from adjoining counties and everything, but it's just gonna, it's gonna take longer to get out to some of these places.

Absolutely. 

Yeah. Yeah. 

Yes. And so I think what is relevant to, to what we're talking about today, Craig, is that, um. It is volunteers sometimes from a very small community that just doesn't have a large volunteer pool to draw from. And if we talked about this recently when we talked about the enchantments, if that is a place with the kind of hiking pressure that the Enchantments have and that county is Chelan County, um, you know, it's just.

It's just too much for a small rural county like that to support so many hikers coming from big population areas like Seattle and Tacoma and Everett and Spokane, um, and Bellingham and Portland, but also, you know, even all over the world in the case of places like the Enchantments. So, um. I think that's important for people to know, just that this is, most people who are involved in search and rescue, including Jay, do not get paid.

Um, 

right. And, and I think people, so they, they're not getting paid to be out there, but there are definitely costs involved in this. Yes. And I was trying to figure that out, and this is really hard to figure out that the average search and rescue is gonna cost anywhere. The cost of between 1007, 8,000, but it could cost even more.

But what's interesting and, and you see a lot of people, okay, it's an issue. The helicopters are involved. How much now? This is where it gets kind of interesting here too, that in the state of Washington that almost all those helicopter. Costs are not being incurred by the counties. Matter of fact, a lot of them, uh, it's from Whitby Island, the, the, um, the, the naval base out there.

The, uh, they're using this for maneuvers. Uh, yeah. So it's part, they actually have in their budget again. Yeah, sure. It's being budget, so there's tax dollars involved, but their budget is for these search and rescues where they use it as training and Yeah. I know in some of the other states it's the same way.

So, uh. That's an issue. 'cause I guess where I'm leading, 'cause the, the sheriff wants to start charging people, for reckless and, and so there's been more and more people that are saying, should this, should we do this? Because will this deter people from the, and where this is being played out right now is my home state of New Hampshire.

Hmm. 

Uh, in my home state of New Hampshire, they actually started this that you can be fined. And here's a, here's a, um, headline that I was just reading. Um. That you could see, which is really interesting. This is two, two recent headlines, uh, from New Hampshire NPR Rescue. Hiker says he owes New Hampshire Fish and game his life and the cost of his rescue.

Hmm. Now what's interesting in this, he didn't get charged, but we'll, we'll, we'll go into this, but here's the other one that I think you may find interesting on this, um, is that. Uh, this is from Backpack Magazine. Backpack Magazine. Two unprepared hikers in New Hampshire needed rescue officials charged them with a crime.

Now, this occurred last winter. I was actually back there when this occurred. Um, these, these, these two young hikers, uh, went out in, and if you never hiked in the White Mountains in New Hampshire, let me tell you, um, I was back Country ranger there. It's known. To claim a lot of lives. We had my ranger district, we had a wall on the map of the, just the presidential range.

That's just one area of the white map. When I was working there, it was 114 dots with dates. That's 114 deaths of people that, that number's up to 183 now. 

Yeah. 

Um, so you have to really take the 10, you know, the 10 essentials, everything seriously and what's happening. Uh, and we've seen this is that, um, hiking has been an explosion in hiking and people are heading to the trail totally ill prepared.

Mm-hmm. 

But what, so that's one thing Ill prepared and a lot of us have, have, have made those mistakes as we started, but what they're also finding is that there's negligence and recklessness. And so New Hampshire, about 10 years ago, came up with this idea. They started selling this hike s card, uh, the New Hampshire Fish and Wildlife responsible, where it's $25, they encourage you, it's not mandatory, but you get this card and it's kind of like a, an insurance.

If you need to be, you need to be rescued. Mm-hmm. And all that money goes in to fit in into search and rescue. Oh, that's, so the money, that's money is definitely going back into search and rescue. Uh, it's not a money grabber. And so there's been talk about this. What it, but also in the legislation that created this that allows, that they can charge, uh, you have to pay for your rescue, um, if you're found negligent.

And what's interesting in this, first of all, there hasn't been many charges on this. So I know a lot of people like. You know, it's gonna be crazy, but the attorney general has to review it. The fish and game officers goes. But there has actually been some charges of people having their found negligent.

And, and what can negligent mean? Uh, it can mean going up. Thats a 

exactly's a that's a big C concern that I have about this, is who's deciding what is exactly negligent and what is reckless. I have. '

cause it becomes 

some feelings about that 

I and you and everyone else on this. And because it becomes, um.

Uh, it's discretionary and, uh, and some that can be pretty obvious too, what negligent is. And in this case, with these two, you can read the article, they went off trail in the snowstorm. They didn't have any gear. I mean, they did everything. But there's also cases too where, where people were intoxicated, um, you know, things like, so what's kind of interesting too, kind of getting back to the Appalachian Mountain Club, I found some.

Statistics on New Hampshire search and rescue statistics from 2008 to 2018. The, so this was, this is old news, but the, the average cost of a rescue was $2,500. There was almost 2000 rescues led. So, um, the, uh, SARS annual budget was $180,000 from these license. So you can see what they were getting. Um.

Almost 150,000 was raised for these cards. So it almost was, almost was a broke a break even on this. But who gets rescued? We were talking about this and I'll have to mention Jennie, that I got rescued once and we'll talk about that. Um, so, and I, I know how it goes, but, but it's interesting. I wasn't negligent.

I wasn't even on a trail. So we'll talk about it. 'cause a lot of people think out of the, who gets rescued. This is the New Hampshire statistics. But I'm gonna think that a lot of this probably applies to Washington too. Um, 62% of those people rescued were climbers or hikers. 14% were runways. Okay, so, so chill.

Uh, 10, 10 and a half percent were hunters, fishers, ATVs, and boaters. 7% skiers, uh, six and a half percent swimmers. And, um, outta the half, roughly half were roughly New Hampshire residents. You always hear people, oh, it's always outta staters. Well, half of 'em were in staters and I'm sure it's the same thing here.

65% were men. Okay. This is probably, I can probably offer some insight on why that is and you know, you know, it's like, hold my beer, here I go. Right, right. Women seem to be a little more pragmatic. Um, and then why? And this is where it gets interesting. And this is, um, 31% got hurt or sick. 24% fell, 23% got lost, 14% poor judgment or preparation.

Now this kind of gets into the 3% drown, 3% fatigue, 2% drugs and alcohol involved. Now you think that might be on the negligence side. Um, and then almost half of those were, were in the White Mountain National Forest, so, mm-hmm. So, again, um, yeah. Um. How do you, so someone's negligent and, and I'll tell you what really blew this open.

So when I was living, I was a back country ranger in the white mountain I, I imagine too. But before I was there, I was living up there in this small milltown, uh, north of the white mountains and we had one of the worst winners ever. And avalanche, you can have avalanches here and a very, uh, well loved local search and rescue died.

Trying to rescue an outta stater who was negligent and that really got people like, this is crazy. We lost one of ours because somebody was foolish enough to go up in this weather. You know, with 20 below zero in the snow, and, and we lost. I mean, and it got people thinking, you know, 'cause the search and rescue, they're gonna do it.

They're gonna go out there. That's what they swear to do it, and yet it, you're endangering them when you're reckless. So that started a lot of this, but it was years before the state finally, just like in Washington, those numbers have gone through the roof, uh, on, on rescues and, and finding people going out in.

Hypothermic weather in a t-shirt with no gear. And it's like, what is going on here? People, you're endangering not only yourself, you're endangering. People have to come and get you. And so they came out with this. Um, but I also have to just mention that New Hampshire is not the only state that can charge you for fish and wild.

There's actually a handful, and I didn't realize Oregon is one of 'em. Uh, Utah. Maine, Idaho, Hawaii, Colorado, and South Dakota. But out of those, I think only Utah and New Hampshire have actually, uh, utilized it, uh, uh, you know, actually charging people. But even then it hasn't, there hasn't been a lot. Because one of the arguments, I think you alluded to it, Jennie, is if I'm damn reckless, I'm just a, a dumb young guy out there and I'm going out there and now I'm in trouble and I'm in the wilderness and I'm thinking, oh man, I need help.

But if I call, I'm gonna get charged thousands of dollars that I don't have, I can't do that and then I end up dying. Um, so I think that's a lot of the argument too, um, is that you start charging people, you're opening up a whole nother can of worms here. So anyways, what do you think of this whole thing?

This is a very interesting 'cause I know people in Washington have been talking, maybe we should do the New Hampshire model. And a lot of people are like, are you nuts? That's not a good model. So. 

Uh, um, what do I think? Okay. Um, both you and our listeners, I'm sure by this point, know that I am about, I.

Helping people, regardless of their background and experience, get outside and enjoy hiking in Washington. So I'm not ever gonna support anything that interferes with that. However, like when we talked about the enchantments. And by the way, thank you to all of you listeners who like sent us texts saying like, Ooh, I really like this episode.

Or I thought it was really interesting or had strong feel. I mean, there were people who said like, oh yeah, definitely needs to be closed or it shouldn't be closed. And so thank you everyone who took the time to do that. Um, so this is kind of like that question for me. So I think. I am aware of what a strain, especially large amounts of people from one part of the state, visiting another state puts on the system.

Uh, that's a big concern for me long term, that's not sustainable. So that's gonna reduce access rather than not. I think there are two. Dangers, and I'm thinking about myself, right? How would this impact me if I knew that I could be charged, uh, for a rescue? Uh, first of all, I think it sends a message that this is only for special people who know what they're doing.

I don't agree with that. Um, I think people do need to know how to be safe, but I think it isn't as complicated as like a lot of people would like to believe. Also, anyone can get caught in bad weather. Anyone can have an injury. As you know, Craig, I recently broke my shoulder. And did that happen on a beautiful hiking trail where I got distracted and tripped on a rock?

It did not. It happened tripping on my brother's dog while she was staying with me in my bedroom. Right? So was that my fault? No. Could I have prevented it? Maybe? Was it the dog's fault? Not really. I mean, it was just a dumb accident, right? That can happen to anyone. That can happen to URI. Um, that could happen to somebody who's super experienced, you know, that happens.

People sometimes die on the trail who do know what they're doing. So those things are all a concern for me. And then the other concern that I have is. That would result in some significant financial gatekeeping. So I think that there needs to be a way for people to buy insurance. If we're gonna do that, 

that's an interesting, and the whole idea with the, the, the hike safeguard, it's, in essence, it's kind of like an insurance.

You first Sure. You buy the card and it has the whole thing about, it's kind of a reminder. It's kind of like, here's the 10 essentials. Here's some things you should think about. It's kinda like a refresher course. It's an annual annual card that you get, you carry with you, you know, the money's going to, to search and rescue.

It's $25 per person, $35 for a family. So it's not prohibitive. Um, and it's not mandatory, but it's one of these things you remind people, uh, and you know, and, and I think it would be interesting to, to if we had some kind of pooling and this can open up a can of worm with health insurance. Do we pool for a national insurance.

But the main thing we should emphasize too is that if our, you know, our search and rescue is being funded in essence, um, uh, through volunteers, and you can, you know, you know, you can argue whether you have professionals out there. Uh, the National Park Service does not charge, but obviously it has to be in their budget 'cause those people work.

Uh, same thing with the military and in New Hampshire they don't have the military, but the na, the New Hampshire, um, national Guard flies to helicopters there and that's budget as part of their training. Uh, so if they're gonna use it, so, so I know a lot of people get these uproars about the vi, but that's actually, that's good training time for them too.

But there's also the thing too, if they're constantly going out there with these constant, uh, search and rescues when there's, you know, because people are being negligent, um, does that take away from other, and, and the prime thing, like you said, Jennie? Yeah, I think of this all the time. I'm out there running.

I'm all alone. I've got my, you know, I've got my spot, my, my personal beacon, my, my personal locator. I can twist an ankle very easily. Of course anyone can. But what's the difference between me twisting an ankle out there running or me putting down a six pack and, and, and, and, and I get on a trail and, and falling off because I was drunk.

Okay. Is that negligent? See, that's, 

so Craig, here is the, what I think is the real question. Who is gonna decide what was negligent and reckless and based on whose criteria, 

right? 

That is a real issue for me. That kind of goes to like a lot of the cultural things about what kind of messages do we send about the on the trail, who is welcome here, what kind of, so for example, trail running.

Is trail running reckless. Right, because you're carrying less gear. 

Right? Right, 

exactly. It's a little people out. Yeah. Not any gear. 

Exactly. 

I think people should be able to do trail running. Right. So it's tricky because, 

um, so should I be able to get drunk and go for a hike? 

I dunno. Maybe. I, I 

guess, guess there's no law against it, right?

Yeah, I think. 

Incidentally, I do, I do not, and I do not advocate that you do. 

No, I I'm not advocating for that either. I'm just saying I don't feel super comfortable with some. Bureaucratic panel in Olympia dis, which is what we're talking about here. 

Yeah. And this, if your attorney general actually weighs in on this, uh, but the fish and game officers who did the rescue, they'll present the evidence.

So it's, it's a, it's a, you know 

Right, it's a 

trial. This is, yeah. 

Yeah. This is where things like. Racism, sexism, 

they certainly can 

play in ageism. 

Yep, 

yep. 

Classism. 

Yep. 

Um, 

but that's 

true. Can become a huge factor. And I'm really, really, if you can't tell, pretty concerned about that because, 

and, and, and it's a, it's a legitimate concern, but that gets played out in any time you have any type of jury or anything like that.

It does, yeah. 

Are you gonna have a hundred percent partiality? That in itself is a good argument. And, and, and, and fortunately when I've looked at. Um, how many cases have actually been tried because the, the officers actually have a lot of leeway here. The amount of times they've actually decided to charge has been minuscule and 'cause people were very, very concerned about it because it's been so egregious that it was almost like, you know, the smoking gun, it's in his hand, we caught him type of thing.

It was So this person was reckless to the ante degree. Yeah. And even at, oh, I was gonna, and even at that point, the fines I've looked at were not, um, what I would consider. You know, it was, I, it's at Stroman jail for hundred. It was like a thousand dollars five, which certainly can hurt somebody without the mean, but they're not the, the, the, the intent isn't that we're gonna go after people to this message.

So we don't want you on the trail. Right. If anything, it's meant to be a positive, to get people educated because there's been far too many search and rescues that shouldn't have to happen. Um, because you know, you should have just taken that extra jacket out and we wouldn't be out here, you know? 

Yeah. I.

I think I would summarize how I feel about it by saying what we do currently is not sustainable. I think we need to have strong statewide. Funding for search and rescue so that rural areas are supported when people visit rural areas from more urban areas. I think that's just common sense. I think we have, that's a policy thing, but I think we need to do that.

Do you think we should have paid, paid search and rescue workers? Absolutely. Absolutely. We should. It's ridiculous that, um, you know, it's fine to have volunteers involved, but. It's, it's not, yeah. I think the type of work that people do should be paid. That is my opinion. And especially if we're not paying rangers and we're not financially supporting our public lands anymore, which we are not at the moment.

Right, and, and, and, and the And the funding Exactly. Depends where it comes. So what happened to me, uh, about eight years ago, I had to get rescued, and this is a funny story actually. I was working, uh, I was with Green Trails Maps as a, uh, mapping the Wawa Mountains eagle cap wilderness in eastern Oregon.

Really remote, beautiful area. I just finished up a seven day in the back country trail, running 30 miles. Whole thing. I'm done. I'm done. I'm in my vehicle. In the middle of nowhere, driving out late at night on a Sunday, and I couldn't get out because a big tree. I had fallen on the road. 

Yeah. 

And it was me and, and, and a berry picker.

And I don't even remember her car. She was not, so she was stuck there and I'm thinking, oh God, what do I do? I didn't have a saw, so could I have been called negligent, being on the road without, and I had my spot and I just bought the darn thing. It funny, I've got my mind, and I pressed the button and I felt guilty about it because, oh, I'm not dying, is it?

And about two hours later, the Union County Sheriff comes in. Are you Mr. Romano? It's like, oh, I'm so glad to see you here. 

Yeah. 

And, um, I said, I don't show you. He goes, no, you did exactly what you're supposed to do. You, you needed, you were stuck and you had Yeah. And he was paid, he was the sheriff, but he had to make a, he had his satellite radio there, you know, telephone, satellite tele.

He had to make a few calls. He called in two people from the Forest Service. They were part-time Forest Service workers that came out, chainsaw us out of there at. 11 o'clock at night. 

Yeah. 

And these Forest Service guys, they were all right. They were teachers. They worked for the forest for the summer. We go, this is great.

We're on overtime. So they were getting paid. So I didn't, so I didn't deal with any. With any, um, uh, volunteers, should I have gotten a bill for that? Uh, you know, part of having my spot I pay in money to the search and rescue. It's kind of like having that New Hampshire hike Safeguard too. 

Yeah. And I have, I have an insurance plan.

So you have the same thing. 

Yeah. 

And, and, and, and I wasn't reckless. I wasn't on a closed road. I wasn't doing anything. I. Nature, a tree dropped, you know, and in the wintertime I tend to have a saw in my, during the storms, but on this beautiful summer, it wasn't even a wind, just an old rotting tree to decided to fall on the, on the road at that point.

Yeah. 

So anyways, that's, that was, that's how search rescue and it was great. I mean, uh, got out of there and, um. Yeah. I mean, that was the whole thing. 

Yeah. And I think the other thing that that's really important to me is that if people are going to potentially face a fine, then it needs to be clearly defined what, what you're doing.

If you break that law. 

Now we have fines in national parks. 

If you pick plants, go off trails. So can you. It's exactly, it's very clear. It's not just like, oh, we didn't think you used good judgment. You've never seen that on a national Park sign. It says things like, you're required to bring two liters of water past this point at the great kid.

So that's a good 

point. Right. 

So, 

and again, I've 

seen 

this or 

yeah, 

you may not fly drones in this national park if you fly a drone. It's a whatever, fine. Right? So things like that. You're not allowed to pick flowers, right? If we catch you picking flowers, it's this, right? So negligence is too vague. It has to be really clear, I think, to have a rule like this.

So what do we do on that? So we say any, any buddy who hikes into the white mountains in the wintertime must have all this gear into your check. I mean. Or you well think the desert. That's what I of water. You 

have to figure that out. 

Well, that'd be interesting. So it's like, because you see this in the desert a lot too.

People getting, you go out there just, they don't have any water and you're gonna, uh, and I've seen places like in San Diego County where they actually in, in Phoenix, the same thing. They close the trails in summertime because they, so if you go on those trails after you're actually breaking the law by being on a closed trail.

Yes. And I think a closed park. A closed trail. A closed road, I think that's different because it's saying this area is closed. If you go in this area, you will get fined. Right? Yes. I don't have have any problem with that. 

Yeah. 

Um, it's the sort of vague. 

Yeah, the nuance, you were 

reckless. 

It's very nuanced.

I can say I don't decide as a, as a trail runner that I have enough gear for me or other people, my Right. You're absolutely, and and I think this is a big concern, and it was a concern even when this got passed. And it probably has a lot to do. Why? There have been very few people that have actually been charged because again, I think thankfully there are, there are some people, I know we live in this era, some people in government that still, you know, have logic and p pragmatism and, and realize that, but you can't always count on that.

And like you say, you could have some over zealot. You know, sheriff or officer or, I just don't like the way these these folks look, so I'm gonna find them. 

They 

shouldn't be here, 

you 

know? Yeah, exactly. 

Yeah. Or like, these look like city people, right. And I don't like them. Right. Or in, say King County, I'm sure there's parts of King County where if you were hunting there, there'd be people who'd be like.

Well, that's reckless. You were walking around with a gun. A gun. Yeah. Well, it's not, lots of people hunt safely. 

Right. 

You know, so I'm just saying those kinds of biases. 

I agree. 

I I have no idea where you can hunt and if you can hunt in King County. That wasn't the point. The point was only 

place you can hunt in King County, but not, not in Western Street, king County.

Well, I don't know. My point was that in our state. Many other places. There's a lot of bias on the part of people who live in urban areas, about people who live in rural areas and the other way around. And thats a problem in a situation like this, 

that you hear this all the time. I read all these forums about the, oh, the stupid out staters and everything.

Well, I just showed you in the New Hampshire that half the people rescued are ins, staters. And I'm gonna say it's the same thing. People, it's probably even more people want to blame. Yeah, blame the other. Yeah. Um. No, it's plenty. I, I see plenty of foolishness on people who live in these areas too. Just living in an area doesn't make you an expert on it.

Um, so yeah, you've got, I think you see a lot of that bias, uh, all the time. I see it everywhere. I mean, every, every, every state I hiking, it's, it's them against I, it's, it's crazy. Um, 

also, every hiker makes mistakes. 

Right. 

You and I have talked about this before. You and I have both made plenty of mistakes.

Yeah. 

We have never had catastrophic consequences from our mistakes. And that is a matter of luck. 

And that's great. And, and again, you hear this a lot too. You'll hear older experience hikers always. Oh, the, you know, the younger one. And again, I remember when I was a younger hiker learning, hiking in jeans with no water and you, you know.

Fortunately for me, I quickly learned that's not very prudent. Now if I, I don't learn that, then there's something. But a lot of us learn from our mistakes, but there's obviously a difference between. You know, learning from your mistakes, from discomfort, then dying, then it's too late to learn from your mistake.

Yeah. 

Um, but if you die doing something negligent, well we can't find you anyways. I mean, I think, 

you know, right. That doesn't actually apply to what we're talking about today. Okay. Craig, I have one other question for you. This is really like a big can of worms before we wrap. Oh boy. Wrap this up and oh boy.

We could probably do a whole episode about this, but today we'll just scratch the surface. So. My question is, and this is rhetorical, right? I wanna know your thinking. 

Oh 

boy. Because there's no direct answer to this. Okay. Why is there, are there more? There are more situations of people hiking on trails on a longer season.

In worse conditions. Let, let's set aside how many people are getting rescued. Let's just table that for a moment. One challenge is that there are more and, and you know, I'm not gonna go into a ton of sourcing detail here 'cause it doesn't matter, but there are more people hiking popular trails. More of the season and in more questionable weather.

So let's just take that discreet thing and, and not worry about whether or not they're experienced or reckless or whatever. Just that's happening, right. That's happening in Washington state. 

Mm-hmm. 

Why do you think that is? 

Um, from my own personal experience, I think a lot 

of, and I'm not gonna let you get away with just saying social media.

No, no, no. Well, that's part of it, not all of it. Um, because the whole, I think it might 

play a role, but that's an easy cop out answer. In my 

opinion. The whole climate of how we learn about the outdoors has changed. Um, so when I moved here in 1989, for most of us, how we learned about a trail was, was through Harvey Manning, Irish Springs, guidebooks.

In those guidebooks, it would specifically say you do not hike Granite Mountain in early summer because there's an avalanche shoot. 

Yep. 

It would. It would have these warning and boy, lemme tell you, and especially 'cause I'm an out stater who's moved here now and I'm taking this guy, this guy knows what he talks about.

I'm not gonna question that. I'm not gonna push my luck if he's saying this is dangerous this time of year. I respect that. That's gone away now people. Are learning a lot of the hikes by seeing a pretty picture on social media without all the small print saying, all right, this is perfectly fine in August, but you don't go up here in November or December.

So I think a lot of people, um, are just unaware of, um, of, of that this could be a very dangerous situation. Or perhaps you came from an area and moved here from an area where a winter just meant there's snow on the trail. Here, they're still on the trail and avalanches and, and, and so that's, that makes things very, very different too.

So I think, yeah, it's definitely in the messaging. It's how people are getting, um, there's more and more people are finding out about our trails by all these other sources. Without all the small print. And the small print's boring, but the small print can save your life. It's just like same thing when you take medication.

Are you reading about all the side effects? Well, maybe you should. Mm-hmm. Uh, you know, and, and, and, and that's the thing. And I know about the side effects. That's why I'm not taking NSAIDs because I know what it does to my liver. Where some people are just popping this stuff left and right, thinking, you know, you know.

Yeah. You got, you got an ulcer now because you'd be taking an aspirin every day goes, you know about the bleeding. So does that. Well, I guess what I'm saying is it doesn't put us off the hook, even though ne we need, we, each one of us needs to take the time to actually, you know, really know what we're getting ourselves into.

No matter what we're doing, we, we have to be responsible for ourselves, you know, and we know this as a parent when we're raising our kids. You, you do all the study to make sure we raise these kids. You know, so they, they grew up in a safe environment. And how do you do that? You know? Well, you know, it's not all inherent.

You have to learn some of this. So what I'm saying is see that pretty picture that God, I wanna hike that now do your research. What does it entail? Can I go up this here? Is it really difficult? Do I need, if you skip that point, you're doing yourself a great in, in injustice. You could actually end up. You know, getting hurt or worse.

And I think that's what's happening. And it has nothing to do with, um, young people, old people, rich people, you know, people of different ethnic backgrounds because it's happening to all these people if you're not informed. That's my take on this. 

You know what Craig? I completely agree with you. 

You are not gonna Oh, thank you.

I'm not gonna argue with you, especially, I loved what you said. You said something like, um, about the fine print saving your life, and, and I can't remember your exact words, but you were basically saying, compared to say a guidebook. Or a mentor, you know, like a person who hikes, who takes you. Absolutely.

Yeah. Right. Or a class, like a mountaineers class, something. Join the mountaineer. 

Exactly. 

Those are the word I would use is long form learning experiences. 

Yep. 

And. And I, what I heard, I, these weren't your exact words. This is what I took from what you were saying, is that people are now getting information from sort of a highlight reel and it sort of doesn't matter whether it's social media or somewhere else, people are only getting a highlight snippet.

Which then cuts out some of the depth 

Yeah. 

Or the fine print, which was what you said. 

Yeah. 

And that can save your life. I, I completely agree with that. I, I hadn't actually thought about it that way. Um, but I think that's totally true. Um, while we've been having this conversation, Craig, I got an idea for another episode.

Oh yeah. What's that? 

Um, which, which something like, we'll have to workshop this later. So listeners, this isn't coming like immediately, but we'll figure it out, is like terrible AI hiking advice. 

Just terrible ai. And don't even, 

you just open up a can of worm me. Listen, okay. I know, I know. So we're not gonna go into this whole thing right now, but while we've been having this conversation, I asked chat, GPT.

For the best. You know it's November right now, right? We're having this conversation in November. It's beginning of winter, and you and I were talking before we got on about some winter episodes that we're doing in the next couple months. So that's where I got the idea to do this. I asked it, what are the best winter hikes Oh boy.

In Washington State. 

And what did he tell you? 

Well. We'll have to workshop and pick this apart later. Should we 

save this for our, let's, let's, let's save 

this a teaser, a spoiler right now. Okay. And I think this could be an example of exact kind of thing you're talking about. So it gave five, it gave five options.

I think four of them are excellent actually. Maybe not the four I would pick, but they are good suggestions. Okay. They lack clarity about snow and like the photos are kind of incongruous with the text, so it's not like a great result. But the hikes it recommends are fine for winter, except, do you wanna guess what number five is?

I'll give you a hint. Or do you wanna guess without a hint? 

Snow lake. 

Ooh. Excellent. Guess it is not snow lake, but you were on the right track. Think about another tall 

truck at the lake that should not be mentioned. 

No, it's not a lake. 

Okay. 

It's a very, very popular hike in the North Bend area. Very challenging.

Mailbox Peak. 

Yes. 

Yeah, yeah. 

Okay. 

Yeah. 

So Mailbox Peak is of course, a, a really challenge. I mean, people often are like, oh yeah, you know, everyone's gotta do mailbox peak. Uh, no, it's very hard, right? Yeah. Some people don't wanna do something that hard. Okay? So this is what it says. Uh. Personally, I would not recommend Mailbox Peak as a winter hike, not in January for many, many, many, many, many, 

I many, you know, not for an inexperience.

Now again, lots of people do it and good for them, and this is maybe a good example of what I was saying before. Personally, I think a super challenging, super steep hike that has avalanche danger at the top and is very hard, even in summer. Doing that in winter, personally, I think is a little reckless, but I actually don't think.

Anyone should not be able to do it. I think if people are like, wanna take on that challenge, I think they should. Okay. So that's an example of like, ooh, who decides what is reckless? But this is what it says. It has three photos of the mailbox in the snow. Beautiful photos. It's a beautiful view. It's, there's no getting around that.

Okay. Why? It's great. It's a challenging winter hike. Steep rewarding summit views. Often requires traction gear, great for winter conditioning, and getting a major payoff in views. If you're comfortable with the conditions tip, only attempt this with proper gear such as micro spikes or an ice ax. Check avalanche risk, and be ready for challenging trail conditions.

Well, at least it actually, yeah. 

It does, but like if, if I don't know anything about snow, like, and, and I, you know, how, how do I know if I'm comfortable in the snow? I mean, I don't know. 

Like that's a whole nother, I think we, we should definitely talk about this again, assessing. I think this is what's interesting and boy, I wish I, I wish I could sound smart here because there's a term.

About this, and we'll talk about that. Most of us fall into that. We assess that we're better at something than we actually are, that we're an expert at something. Right. Um, and I think I'm gonna look that up. That's gonna be the name of our program. And we're gonna talk about, because I think we talk about this, the chances are.

We always have this idea of the person being rescued is this newbie, but the chances of someone like me getting rescued is actually higher in a lot of places because I become, the more I go out and do these 30 mile solo runs by myself, I become confident that I've returned every time. Uh, and that you keep pushing that threshold.

And there's an excellent article in Outside Magazine about this, about how many people like me who were pretty. You know, confident and competent, we end up getting in trouble because we keep pushing that envelope because we've always returned safely and, yeah. Yeah. And so this, 

right. I don't 

need all this water.

I don't really need 

this much food. I can get by why I, I need a 

rain jacket. 

Yeah, yeah. I can get by. Totally. And we become over confident. And, and all it takes is once and you're done. Yeah. 

And you know, I, I gotta say like, just to kind of wrap this chat, GPT thing is like, I think this is a good example of, it has some good information here, but it's, it's a snippet, it's a highlight.

It, it has three sentences. And if you read about Mailbox Peak in a hiking guidebook, or even on WTA a's website or. On the. Like land manager's website, it has lots of information about how steep it is, right? Right. Like how much elevation are you gaining per mile? How do you gather information about avalanche risk and if there's a potential for needing an ice ax.

You know, that's a mountaineering skill you need, how to use it. I don't really know how to use an ice ax well enough. 

You need 

to, to rely on it to save my life. 

And that's the thing. We can talk, we should definitely do an AI thing because I wanna end it on this and we'll talk about it. But when you, AI is gleaning, uh, all these sources, right?

A lot of them are mine, by the way. Yeah, I know. I only have a, we have a, I have a lawsuit class action lawsuit that's involved. We'll talk about this later too. Um, so they're gleaning all these sources, but they're only giving these snippets, as you say. And if, and most people, if they're in a hurry, they're just gonna read again.

It's like reading the stupid meme. There's more to the story. You're gonna need to take that time again to be responsible. Actually do some reading and research and not just a, a, a bumper sticker, you know, um, solution to something. And I find a lot of us are busy or we're just that, but again, that's not an excuse, uh, if you wanna do this properly because, um, yeah, I bought an ice sax out there, but if you don't know how to use it, it's, it's not gonna do any good.

Uh, and, and, and yeah, the mountaineers will have a whole course. And matter of fact, I remember when I was introducing my wife to doing a lot of this. Off, you know, uh, snow Hiking climb. We, I remember spending an afternoon up at Paradise Learning how to fall. Let's fall. Alright, with that ice ax making self-arrest.

Now let's fall backwards because you know, you're not gonna have the perfect fall. You know you're heading, right. You're not, could be like, 

oh, 

I'm 

just about to fall. Let me 

make 

sure I get turned around. 

So my Exactly. Ice 

Max is in the right position. 

That's what you do in a safe environment with a safe runoff so that if you ever.

Do, you know, all of a sudden it happens and it has happened. I remember falling, you know, and going down on my belly backwards. Uh, and I had that ax. Uh, because yeah, then that's a whole nother program we should get into. It's, and with that said, um, I should end. So Jen and I are so glad you're listening to us and, um.

We're so happy here, and please do us a few favors here, uh, on this. Uh, definitely, you know, give us a review on, on your po, you know, on your podcast outlet. Let us let other people know what you think about the Washington State Hiking Podcast so that other people can listen. We really, uh, need your help in getting the word out.

So give us a, give us a review, uh, and please follow Jennie. Myself on our social media, um, we talk about a lot of these topics. I did one on the enchantments, I had lots of great, it gives you an opportunity to weigh in. We are very interested in what you have to say. And with that said, I we're also very interested in what do you wanna hear for, for, um, episodes?

Yeah, we'd really like to know what, give us, send us an email. Send us, tell us what you'd like us to, to cover. Um, so, um, yeah. We are, we do this for you. We, we wanna hear what you have to say. 

Yes, everything Craig just said. Absolutely agree. And, just to tell you what our handles are. So I just use Instagram and I am Top Left Adventures.

It's like top Left Adventures. Craig is on Instagram and Facebook. So Instagram is Craig Romano. Craig Romano. 

Yep. 

And on Facebook, it's Craig Romano guidebook author. So yes, we are looking forward to seeing you over there, and we'll see you next time. 

Excellent. 



 If you are enjoying the Washington State Hiking Podcast, Craig and I would love to have you leave us a rating and a review that helps other people find us. And if you wanna support us financially, you can leave us a tip through the show notes. No account, no commitment, nothing like that. Thank you so much for listening and see you next week.  

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Jennie Thwing Flaming

Host
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Craig Romano

Co-host