Forest Service Road Etiquette and Safety

Jennie and Craig share their best advice for driving on forest service roads and etiquette for sharing the road along with the worst forest service roads they've been on.

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Transcript

 Welcome to the Washington State Hiking Podcast. I'm your host, Jennie Thwing Flaming, 

and I'm your co-host Craig Romano.

Craig and I are happy to have you here. We provide practical and timely seasonal hiking advice for hikers, trail runners, and potential hikers and trail runners of all skill and ability levels that is helpful, accurate, fun, and inclusive.



 Our sponsor for the month of May is the Oregon Coast Visitors Association, OCVA. Partners with coastal communities to support thoughtful destination development and strong local partnerships guided by a shared vision of creating an enriched coastal experience for all. That means supporting local communities, welcoming new, and returning visitors and caring for the natural places that make the Oregon Coast so special.

Start planning your trip today at visit the Oregon coast.com. I.

 

, So we're talking about Forest Service roads today, Craig.

So both the etiquette of IT and safety on Forest Service roads. Yeah, and this is a great point. So, and, and I wanna thank one of our listeners, uh, for bringing this. To our attention. Uh, and, and it's a, it's a topic that's v really, really important and something I've addressed in my books a couple of times, but be first, I gotta play Crotchety Boomer here.

Okay. Um, so anyone who has been, you know, it's one of the, you know, that's okay. It's it'ss. I'm a cranky Gen Xer, so I think, there you go. It's fine because a crotchy boomer here, it's time for back in the good old days. And let me tell you, when I. Back when, back in the 1980s and the 1980, uh, 1980s and 1990s, getting to these trailheads, definitely it was the good old days because this was a period when Forest Service was very much, uh, had had a budget.

Uh, there was a lot of logging going on and the roads were being maintained. Uh, and it's almost, it's amazing when I tell people now about some of these roads, I used to be able to drive. In my Volkswagen golf, 35 miles an hour on east. Nice, smooth, um, very wide forest service roads and. , What I've watched happen now with over the last few decades with the, with the deterioration, , the budgets are being cut.

There's no, I mean, very little logging going on. A lot of the federal lands, uh, and the roads have just become, in many cases horrendous and out and downright, uh, dangerous to drive. So, and this is exactly where this conversation with one of our listeners, uh, we were talking about. And so what's happened in that time?

So as these roads have deteriorated and gotten more dangerous, the amount of recreational drivers on that has increased substantially. 

Yeah. 

And which is, 

by the way, something that makes an unpaved road worse, because things like washboard and potholes get worse if there's more traffic on them. 

Right.

'cause back in those good old days, it was always amazing that sometime during the year here comes the grader on the road. So they were, you know, a lot of these, these roads, certainly the ones that were getting a, a lot of use of the time, they, every year they were getting graded. The, the washboards were getting smoothed out., The potholes were being filled, the brush on the side was being cut back. And so the roads were a heck of a lot safer. Although you did, you certainly had to worry about. Encountering a large logging truck coming down. , And that's still the case in, in DNR roads in, in certain areas. So, so basically, um, what we're gonna talk about, uh, is your safety, uh, because I know now when I'm driving on these Forest Service roads, I mean, I've, safety's always been an issue for me.

So what I'm about to say, doesn't it, it applies whether , we're driving on well graded roads or, or not so well graded. Um, is that. We are responsible for a lot of, be behavior for, for our safety. And, and what I'm finding is that I'm not seeing this being addressed. Um, in many cases on the internet.

I'm not seeing the influencers talk about it. And even a lot of the old school method, the guidebooks, I'm not seeing people address this with, there's almost like this assumption. That people aren't gonna know how to drive these roads. , And from a lot of, uh, people who grew up in more urban areas, um, it might be their first time venturing down an unpaved road and certainly an unpaved, unmaintained road.

. When you start going on to Forest Service roads, your assumption should always be these roads aren't being maintained on a regular basis.

, Unlike you get on I five, you expect a certain amount of safety in areas. So if you're. Uh, flying down one of these roads, , at any time there could be a, there could be a huge, a pothole, there could be a wash, a washout that requires you to slow down. There could be down trees. Uh, and what's happening too is, , the roads, because they used to, uh, be maintained regularly.

Brush is encroaching, and that is, is making visibility an issue. So with all that said, these are my general rules, uh, that apply to Forestry Road number one, and this, this has always been the rule. Always, drive with your headlights on. 

Mm-hmm. 

On a forest service road. Yeah. Always. 

Yeah. 

, The visibility on, on so many of these roads, um, with encroaching brush, if they're dusty, that dust is, is coming up in the air, those headlights could be on.

Okay. So that you, you can be seen.

Yep. 

Second, I mean, check your speed. . Yeah. So, so I was telling you I used to be able to drive 35 miles an hour on these roads.

Yeah. Those are on trunk roads that were wide. So it had room for two flows of traffic coming and going and, and they were smooth. Um, but now I tell you, . You wanna keep that speed limit down and we're talking 25 miles an hour or less. Um, uh, in, in many cases too. A lot of the roads already gonna allow you to drive that fast.

They're gonna be incredibly bumpy., Minor washouts, sharp curves. But, the issue here too is even if the road is fairly, fairly smooth and you're driving at a fast clip, um, those roads are narrow. Yeah. And if you're coming around a blind corner, a blind turn, you can, you can. Encounter somebody the other direction.

If you're both going at a fast clip, that's a disaster. Yep. I, I wanna emphasize, you don't hear about this much, but there are serious accidents that have happened on Yep. On a lot of these Forest Service roads. 

Yep. 

Um. One of the tricks I've learned too, when I'm on a really bad road, uh, so it's, you know, you're, you're inching along.

It's incredibly narrow. There's only enough room for one car. So again, you don't know, uh, if I'm gonna encounter somebody. So at that case, I'm always looking and rem and, and, and I, okay. If I encountered somebody. Next stretch. Do I have a place where I can safely pull over? If not, was there a place that I just passed if I have to back up 

Yep.

Because this is gonna, this is gonna happen, yeah. On some of these roads. Yep. Um, and then the other, the other thing, I learned this in Europe, a lot of the Europeans do this. You're on this very, very narrow road. There's no visibility going o going around a corner. Like I just, 

in the 

middle of 

the city of Rome, for example, 

you just h not in beep beep, just, I just do a little courtesy beep beep, which is alerting somebody.

, There's somebody approaching. Um, so that way we know there's not a surprising counter. You're, you're coming around this blind corner on this ledge and all of a sudden, boom, you meet each other.

Mm-hmm. 

, If you're not comfortable on, on, on these types of roads, by all means don't drive them. Uh, I've, I've seen people sometimes, um, and this can be frustrating too, uh, in, in many cases, uh, a lot of these roads require, uh, high clearance.

And so I've seen. Seeing, you know, vehicles that are, I mean, are scraping, they're hitting bottom. But in a lot of the worst case scenario, and this could be incredibly frustrating too, uh, for you, is getting behind somebody who, who's not comfortable riding, driving these roads and they're crawling at five miles an hour.

But if you see this coming. You pull over and let that person pass too. I mean, that's it. It's, you know, not a, who's gonna get to the trail head first, right? Uh, I always do that when I'm driving if no matter what my speed is. Uh, if somebody comes up on me. It's usually in a big rig. They're handling back and they're obviously driving at a faster, I just pull over and let 'em go.



That's a big etiquette thing is like letting people pass you.

When you come to a spot, which happens sometimes on a Forest Service road where there is not enough room for two cars to pass and someone has to back up, like you were saying earlier. 

Mm-hmm. 

Like, there's no, like, clear rule for that. Like I, I mean, you know, if you know you have an easy place, you can, you can back up a hundred feet and pull in there.

Great. Go for it. Um. I have a few times like just gotten out and I mean, you know, this is not I five, right? Just gotten out and talked to the other driver and been like, of course, hey, I can back up and pull over. It's probably like a quarter of a mile., But I'm cool with that. And then, and then they'll be like, sure, that sounds great.

Or they'll be like, oh, I can just go back a hundred feet and that'll be fine. I'm like, okay. You know, and you don't always have to do that, but like, don't be afraid to. Right to do that or like fold in your mirrors or, yeah, and people have different, you know, I've been a commercial driver, so one of the things that you learn as a professional driver is that, you don't need as much room as you think, but you also have to make sure you have it right.

So if you're driving a giant motor coach, you know you can, you can squeeze through a spot with two inches of clearance, but that's gonna. That's not a starter level activity. So I think it's really important to make sure you're comfortable. And if that means driving five miles an hour or backing up really far to pass, don't worry about it.

You know, some people have more experience with this, some people have less. Anyone can make a mistake. So you should definitely, I think it's really important for people to drive. Kind of within their comfort level and the ability of their vehicle. You know, I've met logging trucks on a logging road and it's like, you know, they're, they can't back up around a hairpin turn.

You've gotta get out of their way somehow. You know, so, good point. I think those are, um, so just have to be really patient with other people, which I would advise always doing that while driving, but. A 

absolutely. Drive your own drive.

Kinda like hike your own hike. Yeah. However. Be aware. Alright. You know, say the speed limit on the Forest service road is 25, 30, some of 'em actually have speed limit and you're driving 10 because you're con that's, 

yeah. Then you need 

to let people pass. But if somebody, you need to let people pass. Exactly.

Yeah. Yep. Uh, and the other thing too, and this is what I've noticed,, back in the good old days, there was far fewer of us and there was more communication. Um. You know, be courteous out there. When your approach with somebody, roll that window down, say hello and how are we gonna negotiate this? Yeah.

And, and what I find too, it's, I can always say, we always joke about, you know, oh someone, someone's from the city here. 'cause they didn't wave. Um, it used to be in the old days when you always was your passing, somebody just flip your hand up from the steering wheel, acknowledge out there, going through.

It's funny 'cause on the eastern side of the Cascades, when I'm riding up there, it's almost like. If you don't wave to somebody response. Yeah, it's very, it's very rude. A rude gesture. Very. It's like you just flick them off so it doesn't hurt to just. Like, Hey, tha, or you know, I just pulled over a lot to let you by because to, you know, just give me a wave, a thank you wave because you know, yeah, that's a courteous thing.

It's likewise if you do that for me or when you two cars approach whoever, yeah. Ends up backing up to help. Acknowledge that because again, it's a nice gesture. We are able to work this out without conflict and God knows we need more of that in our society today. Yeah, let's get along. Okay. 

Yeah, for sure.

So 

Forest Service roads can be trying, they, 

yeah, and my, my husband Jay, who's from Montana, he says that anytime you're not on pavement. Or the speed limit is less than 35 miles an hour. You must wave. 

You wave, you wave. 

So that's what I do, because I've learned from him. 

It didn't require a lot. So, 

yeah. 

You know, 

but it's lowkey.

I mean, you just, like you said, you know, this is an audio experience, so people can't see us, but it's like you just lift your hand, your fingers lift your hand from the, the steering off the steering wheel. That's it. 

Yeah. 

And if someone does that to you, they're being kind. Yeah. And neighborly. 

Exactly. 

So don't be offended.

Exactly. And I'll tell everything. Yeah. And I'll tell you something else too. That person, you know, that just lets you go by. And if you stop, that person might pull you out of a ditch later too. Exactly. Listen to again. So you know, you know, we're all out there. Sometimes we have to rely on each other and, and that happens.

I've had flats in the back, I've had trees come down. 

Yeah. 

And sometimes. You may need some assistance on an issue. Yeah, for sure. Matter of fact, just just, you know, um, I was out on a, a road back in New Hampshire. Um, Trailhead got, I got stuck. It's a good thing that I was there and someone else, because we were able to push him out of the ice, you know?

Yep. Again, you know, um, but it was a jerk to us. Why? You know, but we still would've done it. But I know, but, um, because 

that's the code of the back country and 

of rural driving, that's the code of the back country.



I was thinking too, Craig, about a couple things I wanted to share with everyone, you know, related to Forest Service roads. One of them is that I think it's important for people to know that there are certainly exceptions to this, but most of these roads were not built for recreation.

They were built for the logging industry. Right now, some of them are explicitly built for recreation or now are maintained that way. So I don't wanna say this is a blanket statement, but I think it's, regardless of how you feel about that. Like it doesn't matter how you feel about it. That's kind of a baseline reality.

And so if you're feeling frustrated with your driving experience, just keep in mind that these roads were generally built for logging and for logging trucks who can communicate with each other on the radio, right? And say, Hey, I'm coming down, or I'm coming up, or, right. And so, because. Most of us, I don't know anyone who has our radio to communicate with logging trucks.

Um, but. We are outside of that system, right? So that doesn't mean that as hikers, it's not for us. It is for us. It's great for us to be there, but just keep in mind that there's this whole other thing behind these roads. I think that's important to be aware of. And a road will be in way better condition if there's active logging going on nearby.

Absolutely. 

Absolutely. And that's 

a, and you know, that's just the way it is. Right? That's way it important for people to know that back the 

eighties and nineties as well. Yeah. 'cause there was so much logging going on. It would, if you had just started hiking now, it would blow you away , if I showed you pictures of what these roads used to be like and how we used to drive them.

One of the, I mean, one of my biggest concerns, uh, other than the, the potholes and all that, which are a nuisance, but I think to me one of the biggest safety issues is the encroaching vegetation. Yeah. On the sides that have made the roads. Even more, you know, more narrow. Yeah. And also your line of vision is, I mean, in many cases you can't see very far in front of you.

Yeah. Which again, that's going to warrant keeping that speed down. Yes, absolutely. 'cause um, you have no idea who's coming, you know? And also too, the other thing, all right, it's getting late in the evening. You're worried about other cars. There's also wildlife on the road too, and boy, I'll tell you, hitting, hitting a good sized deer or moose does some serious damage to your vehicle as well.

, Just be so aware too when you're driving., A lot of these roads, again, they're washing out on the side. You wanna be really careful. Uh, they're failing on the end. You don't wanna be driving too far, uh, on the edge.

On some of them. It, it could be disastrous. You could, you know, end up your wheel coming down or going off. I've seen cars. That have gone off, uh, you know, rolled over, things like that on some of these roads. I'm not saying this to scare people, but again, you've really gotta be attentive. You 

just have to really pay attention and, and really watch your speed.

Another thing I wanted to kind talk about along those lines is, um, just the, like your vehicle and kind of a couple maintenance things. , You know, Craig, this is always a struggle for me when we do episodes about things like this because we want to help people navigate what is a real danger and hassle without making people feel like they can't do it right.

So I always right. I always struggle with that, especially being a woman. A woman often driving by myself and. You know, it's like women, women can drive and handle flat tire. Uh, this might be news to some people, but you know, women can change tires. They can, you know, women can drive RVs. No problem. Right.

Not just vans either. Like an honest to God motor home can be driven by a woman anyway, 

and 

big pickup 

trucks, 

so yes, and I feel like I see a lot of other women driving pickup trucks. I, I have never seen a woman other than the women that I sometimes borrow an RV from driving like an a true motor home.

Anyway, that's a whole, you don't wanna 

bring those down a Forest Service road anyways. 

No, you would not wanna drive a motor home out there. But the point is that if you're driving out there, you need to have some awareness and knowledge about your vehicle. That doesn't mean that you need to be a mechanic.

I am not. I, I don't know how to work on cars, but I do know how to change a tire. And I do know a little bit about the basic physics, right? So I think the important thing is, like you were talking about Craig, with edges, and not even just drop offs, but also soft edges if like mm-hmm. A tire gets over that it can, it can make it so you can't get back on the road.

Mm-hmm. Even if, mm-hmm. It doesn't look bad because. The way that the physics work is that once your vehicle's weight gets onto that tire, that's off the road. If you can't get back on, you're stuck. Right? So I'm just mentioning that because keeping really good tires on your vehicle, don't cheap out on tires.

Don't wait till they're balled to replace them. Um. Have, have tire changing equipment. A lot of modern, newer cars, especially those built in the 2020s, don't have spare tires. So. That's fine, right? But you're not gonna be able to get AAA out on one of these roads, right? You're not 

exactly 

you, and you're not gonna have cell service.

So you just need to have a plan. Like, what if something goes sideways with my vehicle? What am I gonna do? Um. And my plan is to use my Garmin to communicate with someone who can pick me up and then figure out what to do with my vehicle later. Right. But it doesn't matter what the plan is. And it doesn't mean you, you know, people drove on these roads much worse roads with much worth, worse vehicles in like the 1950s, right.

So it's totally doable. But just some of the things that we're used to having access to like aaa, like the internet, um. You know, I have used the internet to look up various vehicle problems, but like you can't do that if you don't have internet cell service. Right? So just being, being mindful of that, like a lot of it is just knowing, oh, where are my tires?

Where is the road? And I know that sounds silly, but when you're on an unpaved road, it's easy to miss that. So I think that's really important. And I think, um. Kind of along those lines to the type of vehicle you have. Doesn't matter. As much as that it has good tires. 

That's a really good point. And one of my biggest concerns on a lot of these roads are sharp rocks. Yeah. And, and that's, so that's another thing, you know, you wanna be. Be really careful.



So this is another thing if you're a little worried about some of the, you know, you can always, by going on some of these more remote roads on weekends when there's more people out there. Yep. There's always, again, even if that person. If, if someone else encounters you, you need help and they can't help you.

They can at least drive somewhere to get somebody to get you help. Um, and I think I, I talked about this when I was in the Wawa Mountains in Oregon. I had a tree come down, uh, yeah. In front of me and I was stuck. And what got me out there is, my, um, inReach. Yeah. Um, I was, I was able , to get the, the sheriff to come out there with the chainsaws.

Yeah. So what I do now, since that, I always, in my truck, I have a hand saw, I always have a hand saw. I don't have a chainsaw, but I have a hand saw, so, so even like a six, you know, a tree that's six inches round. That's a foot from the ground, you're not gonna be able to drive over that. But I think, no. 

And it is gonna 

take like 

a, a couple hours to cut through that with a hand saw, but that is way better than being 

there 

the weekend.

It's doable. Yeah, 

it's doable. So a hatchet, I have a hatchet, I have a, hand saw, uh, a rope. . It might not get you to all the cases, but it, it certainly might help you in some cases.

. Make sure the gas tank's full. Yeah. Um, you may end up driving a lot longer and a lot slower and burning a lot more fuel than you think. Yeah. So, and if you're stuck too, you know, you might need to run that engine a couple of times to warm the place up at night.

So, you know, I always make it a point to to, to have that. That fuel tank, you know? Yep. Up there 

when I'm heading out and while, while we're on that topic, so I, I drive an electric vehicle. I don't know if we've ever talked about that this before. Actually, I drive two electric vehicles, , so as far as electric vehicles in these roads, there's no reason. Not to drive an electric. I mean, I, I'm not sure why, but I've had, I have a Ford Lightning, which is a pickup truck. Nice. Yeah. And people will be like, you can drive that on a Forest Service road. And it's like, yes, you can. But similar to fuel , if I'm driving it into a remote area, I always make sure before I leave that remote area to top up the charge, which is the exact same principles, what Craig is talking about with the gas tank.

Even if I know I have plenty of charge. It's just a good. A good practice to give yourself all the, all the best shots you can at a great outcome. So, um, yeah. Yeah. And it doesn't have to be totally full. Like if I'm at 80%, I won't top up, but if I'm at 50%, I will. Yeah. Um, yeah. So, and it depends on 

where you're driving too.

Exactly. You know, 

it depends on how far, if you're gonna go two miles on the Forest Service Road, you could just walk out two miles. If you're gonna go 20 miles. You know, that's a, it's not that you can't walk 20 miles, but that's a different project than walking two miles is. So, yeah, 

and that's another good point you, you made with the, uh, the walk.

You know, lots of times assess those roads, what happened in, in many cases the roads might be decent to get to a certain point. Yeah. And then they deteriorate rapidly in many cases. Even if I, if I can negotiate, I don't wanna, I don't wanna trash my vehicle ever find a a, a good place to pull over a park that's not in the line of traffic.

And if I've gotta walk that extra mile on the road, I'll tell you it might be at the same speed as trying to drive up something like that too. And my nerves aren't gonna be shot. And so again, don't think like, oh, I gotta get up there, uh, and then end up getting stuck and, and you know, it really is not worth trash in your vehicle.

So, um, 

yeah, that's a good, really good point, Craig. A couple other things I wanted to mention. One is just where to get information about Forest Service roads. So for the approximately 9000000000th time on this podcast, I'm gonna recommend WTA a's trip reports for this. Um, people often include information about what the drive was like, if it's notable.

So, for example, I've written things like, um, this road has a lot of potholes and it's challenging. However, when I got to the trail and I drive, you know, a pickup truck, however, when I got to the trailhead, I saw two Teslas and a Toyota Corolla in the parking lot. So it's totally doable in a, a lower clearance vehicle, right?

So, so you'll see I write. 

I wanna write a book on Trailhead. I've seen Prius is at Yes. Uh, I'm always amazed. Again, Prius can 

get many, many places. It's amazing. 

I'm always amazed I I of some of these horrendous roads, like I cannot believe that vehicle got up there.

What I wanna know though, I've never gone back. Did the vehicle get out? That's what I wanna know, but, 

um, I, I've driven a Honda Accord. Under some pretty crazy circumstances. So I will, uh, just like own that. We could talk about that another time. Perhaps. 

I've driven some rental cars. I shouldn't even be saying that.

Thank you. Oh, no. Zip it Romano. Otherwise, there's gonna be somebody from like Avis in Las Vegas listening. 

They're, 

and they're gonna be like, we're done with you. Let me look up this guy and ding him. Yeah. So, no, that never happened. Never talked about that. Craig has never driven a rental car anywhere. Off Ave Admit.

Have you, Craig? 

Never, ever, 

never. Not one time. . One more thing I wanted to just mention is about parking. So Craig, you kind of alluded to this when you're like, I'm 

glad you brought that up. Parking 

is important. Yeah. Is like, don't ever park blocking a forest service road. Ever, ever, ever. I see this all the 

time.

Right. And And it's something people unfortunately do a lot, especially at really busy trail heads, 

so dangerous. 

So don't do that. Even if other people are doing it. Like just don't. It's really important and there needs to be room. For a big vehicle, like for example, an ambulance. 

Yeah. 

Or a logging truck or a fire engine.

Mm-hmm. 

To make it past you. If a fire engine cannot pass you where you're parked, you can't park there. No matter. No matter what. There's not gonna be signs. There might be, in some places there are signs, but a lot of places there aren't, because this is like a remote. Road. Right. So I just wanted to mention, so important before we wrap up, I've 

seen some horrendous parking out there and some of it, um, is an annoyance, uh, uh, you know, at, at, at worse.

And some of it's just downright dangerous. So, um, where it's dangerous as you address Jenny, uh, you know, blocking, I mean, people actually parking in right of ways. I mean, if it's at the roads, you don't park and in many cases there'll be signs. Don't park anyway, and people are, are ignoring that. But even in cases, you're looking at this really skinny road and, you're taking up half the road to parking it.

That is so damn. And, and again, I would just be worried about somebody hitting my vehicle. I mean, that's, you know, do you wanna come back and have Yeah. You know, a hit and run. That happens all the time too. As far as, um, the inconvenient, you know, don't assume it's, you know, you get to the trail head first and, and there's a small, and you park.

You just take up the entire parking space, you know, so get in there, park all the way to the side to make sure don't, don't leave these huge gaps where their cars can't fit in there. Or if they can, they're gonna squeeze in there. And again, I'd be worried about, you know, the detail on my car because, you know, someone's trying to get in there.

So, um, you know. Be courteous in your parking. Understand that, especially on weekends and be that there's gonna be a lot of people competing for that parking space. And, and, and I can't tell you how many times I've shown up when, you know, there, there was parking for 10 people, but. Way, the way it was situated, the four, four spaces couldn't be used.

I mean, 

right. 

To, to me that's, it's, it's selfish and, and, and it's rude. Um, you know, so, uh, be aware and it's, you know, situational awareness. You know, you're not the only one out there. Um, you know. Utilize those parking spaces properly. Be courteous, let other people park there a as well. And likewise, I mean, I can't, I cannot believe I've seen reports this people have double parked a trail.

Can you imagine coming out, Jenny? Yeah. It and someone's parked behind your car and you can't, don't it. I mean, you're, I mean, you're, you're, you're setting yourself up for a really bad situation. 

Absolutely. 

Uh, not to mention the, the, uh, the ignorance and, and the, and the selfishness of, of such a behavior. I don't get it.

Yeah. If I get to a trailhead and the parking lot's full, well, guess what? Tough, my tough luck. I should have got there earlier. So what I'll do is I'll head back down the road again to look for an alternative parking space. And in my book, yeah, in my books, I, I, I usually spell out that you can park here or park there, but, and then if it means I have to walk an extra half mile or something on the road, so be it.

That's just the way it is. And I'll tell you, in some cases I purposely will drive to places. Knowing that I can park closer, but I know it's gonna be crowded and all that, then I'll, I'll end up parking someplace farther away and walking, not for the exercise says I just don't want my vehicle trashed, or I just don't want the hassle.

So, so, yeah. Don't, you know, think, but again, get there with plenty of time you can make that, make that decision. Mm-hmm. Parking is definitely an issue at our popular, uh, our popular trailhead on the weekends. So, and if, again, if that's something of a concern to you, go on a weekday, uh, or get there really, really early in the morning.

Mm-hmm. . I think this is a really important topic and I'm glad we've addressed it. And thanks to those of you who have asked questions about this too. You, we love hearing from our listeners and that helps us, um, think of episode ideas like this one that we might not have thought about or might not have thought about for a couple years.

And I guarantee if you encounter Jenny or myself coming down these trail heads, at the very least you're gonna get a wave. 

Yes you will. Ooh, Craig. Okay. I have one thing before we go. What's 

that? 

What do you, what do you feel like is the worst forest service road in Washington? 

Oh, that's a great, actually, the bumping Lake Road is horrendous. Oh, past the pavement.

That's an awful, awful one. It's an old mining road. I hate that road. Um, what else am I thinking That's really, really bad , the North fork of the sock, which is such an important road to get to. Um. You know, the, the Glacier Peak Wilderness. Yeah. That road is notoriously horrendous.

Yeah. Really bad. You're not gonna make good timing on that at all. So 

I, I think What 

are some of your, your 

Well, I contenders, well, there's two that come to mind. One of them is, this is so funny. One of them is the road that goes to the, Annette Lake Trailhead, which is about one, well, I haven't met there in a long time, so long, 

not that long.

Two, 

I parked at 

Pavement. Yeah. 

Right next to I 90. 

Right. 

It has car swallowing, potholes. It's totally doable, but you have to drive and then you stop. Then you're like, okay, where can my tires weave through here? Oh no. Then you do that for like 10 feet and then you stop again. It's really frustrating. Um, and then the other one is more remote, the Heart's pass road, which is a, we could do a whole episode about that road, 

People always.

Have that as one of the worst roads. I have driven that in, in a Volkswagen Gulf. Um, 

yeah. 

I don't find the potholes bad. I find itsy 

shape. No, the potholes are bad. It's got a lot of really sharp, wobbly rocks, you know, close to drop offs. So it's just kind of, well, yeah, 

you wanna, you gotta take 

it's, and I not maybe to say it's a bad road isn't the right thing.

It's a very challenging drive. I would say 

it's a white knuckler. We need to do a, um, an, an episode on white knuckle roads because I, I hear people say all the time, that's a good idea. We should do that. You're absolutely terrified of that dead horse point. And it's called Dead Horse just because the, a horse went off it.

That's, you know. Yeah, it's a good idea. Pretty descriptive. It could be dead Prius, you know, if it's a modern 

Yeah. 

But I've never found that road to be that harrowing. Uh, I found, I, I've, I have other contenders. Okay. So 

we, maybe we talk about that. We'll talk about that another time then. 

Beautiful. 

All right.

Bye for now, everybody. 

All right. See you on the roads.

 I.

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