Hiking and Exploring the North Cascades with Christian Martin

Christian Martin from the North Cascades Institute sits down with Jennie and Craig to talk about the natural and cultural history of the North Cascades and he and Craig share their favorite North Cascades hikes.

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Transcript

Welcome to the Washington State Hiking Podcast. I'm your host, Jennie Thwing Flaming, and I'm your co-host Craig Romano. Craig and I are happy to have you here. We provide practical and timely seasonal hiking advice for hikers, trail runners, and potential hikers and trail runners of all skill and ability levels that is helpful, accurate, fun, and inclusive. Our sponsor for the month of July is Bellingham and Whatcom County situated between Seattle and Vancouver bc. The vibrant college town of Bellingham, Washington boast trails for every taste and skill level. Find urban trails in the heart of town for a car free visit or take a scenic drive to the nearby Chuck Nut Mountains. For Alpine Vistas, head into the Mount Baker wilderness or stunning North Cascades National Park. No matter where you begin, you'll always end somewhere unforgettable. Learn more@bellingham.org. Thank you so much, Bellingham and Whatcom County for being our sponsors for the month of July. . Our guest today is Christian Martin from the North Cascades Institute. Hello and hello, Christian. We're so excited to have you here. I'm excited. Yeah. Craig and I have, uh, worked together a lot in the past or, or had a big spurt of it and so I'm happy to see both of you. Yeah, I know you did and that's so wonderful and I am happy to meet you. That's very exciting. So listeners, we, today we're gonna go a little bit deeper, um, with the North Cascades and we talked about the North Cascades in. One of the earlier episodes of the podcast, not super early, but in the first year, um, where we talked about best hikes in North Cascades National Park, that was in September of 2024. It was episode 29. So we are gonna talk about some specific hikes today. Um, but if you want even more on that, um, definitely go back and listen to that one because today we're gonna spend a lot of our time. Talking about the natural and cultural history of this area, and that's why we have Christian here. So Christian, to get us started, can you tell us a little bit about how you came to this work and what the North Cascades Institute does? Sure. I'm happy to be here with both of you and having this conversation. I have actually worked for the North Cascades Institute. Um, I just passed 20 years,, in last week. So, I've been with this organization a very long time and it's kind of a dream job for me in that, , , multiple different passions, overlap. One is creative writing, um, and then related skills in editing and,, creating content and interviewing people. And, uh, another passion for learning about natural history like botany and birds and, , ecology and watersheds. And then, and third passion is just for protecting and, and conserving and restoring the natural environment here in, in Cascadia. And those have all been really lifelong pa passions of mine since I was a little kid growing up in Kirkland, Washington., And so when the job presented itself to me where I could be, , I'm the communications and marketing manager, so. Weaving together, creative writing, natural history, conservation, getting, getting the word out, um, about what the institute does. Really a, a dream job for me, and that's why I've been here for 20 years. I don't think I've done anything else in my whole entire life for 20 years. So, , that's a little bit about me. I'm based in Bellingham. We have staff, that live all around the low, the Skagit and Whatcom County. That's our, our administrative staff, , running the institute. And then we also have our learning center up on Diablo Lake in North Cascades National Park. And,, the learning Center has several do dozen people that, instead of working down, down valley, as we say, work up in the mountains running the learning center, our cooks and our housekeepers and our instructors. So we're institutes spread all over. Um. Skagit and Whatcom, and we are actually, this is great timing to be talking with you because it's actually, , the 40th anniversary this year, 2026 of North Cascades Institute. So that means for four decades we have been,, working hard to get people, um, outdoors and learning about,. Learning about the natural and cultural history of the ecosystem. Finding ways to connect people to the ecosystem, and that could be through. Science. That could be through art, that could be through, , writing, that can be through family camps. , Whole wide array, wide spectrum , of methods that we use, routes,, that we use to get, get people outdoors connected with the environment, , learning about it and our. Unofficial philosophy is that when people connect to this place, when they learn a little something about it, maybe the, the name of a bird, or when the Trillium blooms or, , how the glaciers have shaped the landscape, when they learn a little bit about it, that creates a connection. And from that connection springs, uh, a love of place, at least a care for it, and a, and a and a desire to, to be as good stewards of this place. That's, that's a little simple version of it, of what we do. Yeah, absolutely. And you, you explained it well, and I think for a lot of our, our listeners, um, they, they might not be fully aware of, of, of the institute's campus. And, and, and I think that's probably, um, through, through our podcast and, and, and get people out to hike, that's probably how we're gonna be connect them to, to NCI to the North Cascade Institute. Mm-hmm. And if I, and if I rem if I remember correctly. First of all, I didn't realize that the institute's been around for 40 years. So big congrats. Because I just remember when, when the physical campus was built. Mm-hmm. And I want to say that was probably what, around 1999? Does that sound right, uh, in that area? So, uh, and that was a big deal with Seattle City Light. It's on their property, the funding. It's a beautiful campus. Um, if you've never been there, my son just did, um, uh, the, um, mountain School. Mountain School there. They do that for, because you know, I have a son in Skagit Valley, in in Skagit County schools. They send all the kids up there. It's a wonderful program. Then of course. Christian and I, we did a program there when we had a book launch, wonderful place to connect and, if you have not been out out there yet, you're gonna be so surprised, uh, especially if you never even knew this place existed. Yeah, that's great. Uh, the, the Learning Center opened in 2005, so last year was, its 20 20th anniversary. And it's a, it's a really unique story. I won't get into the deep details of it, but it's a really unique story in that the, the creation and running of the North Cascades Environmental Learning Center. Is, , a three-way partnership between the National Park Service, which is, of course, we're, we're in the heart of the National Park on Diablo Lake, so they're kind of the stewards of the land, the administrators of the protect protected landscape up there. Another partner, Seattle City Light, , through their Hydro Skagit River Hydropower project. Helping to fund and build the learning center, and then the institute as a private, independent nonprofit group. More or less as the operators of the learning center. So staffing it and coming up with all the programs, all the different activities that happen up there. Mm-hmm. So really unique to have a public utility, a federal, a federal agency, and a local nonprofit working together. Yeah. That really is very, to make this place run. So Christian, can you share with us a little bit about. Where we are talking about, when we talk about the North Cascades, the episode that Craig and I did almost two years ago was specifically about hikes in North Cascades National Park. Mm-hmm. Craig has a book about. Stay hiking the North Cascades, which includes a much larger area than just that. Um, I think a lot of times when people think of the North Cascades, they either think of the park, but forget about places like Mohegan, or they think of like Highway 20. Which is not all of that is in the park. Right. And then of course there's these other areas. So can you just give us a little, 'cause we're gonna get into some natural and cultural history. Can you get into just a little bit of context around where we are talking about Yeah, sure. The Institute considers ourselves like an ecosystem based organization so that our classroom is the entire ecosystem. That's where we get people out into, from the Meau Valley to the San Juan Islands and the Salish Sea and everything in between. So the National Park is really like the protected kind of core, the mountain mountainous core of the ecosystem. But we're so lucky to have the whole entire ecosystem 'cause it's so diverse and that. It really goes from like the, shrub step e shrub step East side, east slope over in like, uh, MEAU Valley, especially maybe down to, , Wenatchee in that region, uh, from the east slope up into the high peaks and the glaciated mountains of the park. All these really powerful rivers of Skagit in Seattle and, um, I guess the skykomish and still a glish. But then, you know, floating down the ecosystem continues down the west slope through all of the mossy old growth forested valleys that we know of. But then all the way to the, even including like the Chucka nut mountain range, which is south of Bellingham, kind of divides Wacom and Skagit County. Um and it's renowned as a place where the North Cascades ecosystem touches this. Such as the saltwater or the sailors sea. I think it's the only kind of direct natural connection where it goes from Alpine to shoreline to sailors sea. Is that right, Craig? Yeah, yeah. You're you're absolutely right. When we talk about the North Cascades, , a lot of people, they're thinking just the National Park, um, and the North Cascades, the greater ecosystem. It goes from. Snoqualmie pass all the way up into Merit British Columbia. Uh, it is a huge, huge area. And then as you mentioned, Christian, the Chuck Up Mountains, which is fascinating. Uh, little Reno is the only place where the, where the, the, the North Cascades actually touch the Sailor Sea. So that in itself makes it, you know, uh, a, a special place, unique place. But when people think of the park. Two, even when they think, uh, like where you're located in Diablo Lake, that's part of this area called the complex, the, the National Park Complex. It's 'cause it's, there's two national recreation area. And again, most people they probably, it doesn't matter to them, but it's all managed differently. But the way you're, you guys are looking at the thing. The whole, the whole picture doesn't matter, the state, tribal, but you have all these partners you work with and then hopefully you Yeah, that's correct. Have these general, yeah. Um, you're all on the same page, hopefully on some of this. So, but, and you guys are, are really in the heart of it too when you think about it because, um, absolutely. Yeah, you are, you're absolutely in the heart. 'cause those, those mountains keep going well beyond the Fortinet parallel as well. So, and Craig is this. Basically the same area that you cover in your day. Hiking North Cascades book, what we were just talking about. Yeah. My day hiking North Cascades book basically has the northern part of that because my Central Cascades book, we've talked, there's actually theoretically no such place as the Central Cascades. Right. But um, you just made it up. That's But we made it up, but it's the southern part, so Yeah. What Christian's gonna talk about the Highway 20 corridor and the Met, how and all that is in my day, hiking North Cascades book. And we've got all these places covered, including the hikes coming right out of the, uh, out of the NCIS campus, which is, , just a great place , to begin from. So, sweet. Okay. So Christian, let's start with the land and the plants and animals. Like, tell us a little bit about what's kind of unique as far as the natural history of the North Cascades. Sure. I have a whole shelf of field guide books and scientific books. , But, off the top of my head I have a few, um, facts about what makes the the region unique. And one is that the, range of elevation, I guess if you, again, from sea level to how, you know, how tall is Mount Baker or the picket range, you know, right. Over 10,000. Yeah, over 10,000. So the fact that the ecosystem goes from sea level to 10,000 feet in a pretty short, any pretty short distance, pretty high rise, um, once you start driving in the mountains, that creates a really great diversity for plant life. From low level and slightly higher, al altitude, slightly higher than that, up into the alpine. There's a really great relief. And the way that the weather comes in, the, the, the rain, um, off the Pacific and hitting these elevations, getting blocked by the, the. Mountains, the peaks of the North cascades. There's just a really wide array of plant life and tree species. And because of that, sort of sets the table for them, there's a great diversity of wildlife and birds and, mammals and, you know, things in the rivers and, and lakes. So that's one thing that makes us stand out as unique is just great diversity because of our gradient elevation gradient., Another thing back on the idea, uh, on mentioning mammals is that the North Cascades are unique. , In the Pacific Northwest for having almost every native species that was there before, European contact settlers came in. The only, uh, and that includes wolves and Wolverines and fisher and, um, couple of grizzly bears still hanging out in there. Yeah, that was, yeah, that's the one, that's the one that's kind of iffy. Is the grizzly bears, are they here, are they not? Do they maybe come down and visit from BC and go back? There's an effort, a long, decades long effort to reintroduce grizzlies mm-hmm. To the ecosystem. But that, that's the, you know, keystone species and may the last semi missing piece, if the grizzly bears had a healthy population, we would have every, species. And that's really, really rare. , That is incredible to have that. And when you look at the National Park Complex and the wilderness areas, that during the winter time when the highways closed and all those areas kinda, you, you are looking at one of the. The largest roadless areas in North America. Mm-hmm. Larger than, than Yellowstone, uh, and Yellowstone has roads going through it too. So that's the other thing. You have one of the largest wilderness complexes remaining North America to support all the, that megafauna. Yes. And all this, this, those keystone species. Yeah. Mm-hmm. Yeah. Another, fun fact or thing that makes North Cascades unique is it's the most glaciated region, region, um, in the lower 48 states. And,, the park lists over 300 glaciers inside just inside the park itself. And there's more up in BC and more to the south. But, um, that's a legacy of. Ice that has carved and shaped the landscape and that feeds all of the rivers coming out of the North Cascades. That cool, clear, clean water coming from the glaciers is, is what supports,, relatively healthy salmon populations in our, in our rivers up here. So the glaciers are, . Extremely critical part of the ecosystem, year round. And, they're shrinking and we're watching them get smaller and smaller by the year, even on Baker and Glacier Peak. But, but there's still pretty substantial amount of ice up in the high country. And that, that's another major, , shaper of the whole ecosystem. Yeah. Having that. And you mentioned the salmon and the Skagit River is the only only river in that has all five of the, of the salmon sea. And, that river originates in BC in the heart of the, of the north cascades and of course, flows right through where you are, nci, that whole area. And I've been following, I'm a resident of Skagit County. So. Christian, what about the people? Tell us a little bit about the cultural side of this unique area. Sure. We like to teach about, a place you wanna learn the plants and the birds and the salmon species. The geology and, um, hydrology, but also really important, story is like how humans have used this place, um, inhabited it and, fit themselves into it. And so that begins, over 10,000 years ago, you know, since time in memorial with the indigenous people that utilized the North Cascades, 10,000 plus years ago when the glaciers retreated all the way through,, really vibrant presence today. So the human history really begins with, , the people that came into the mountains to hunt and to gather berries and use the rivers for, salmon and major. You know, salmon is a central part of most cultures. Not very long ago in this grand scheme of things, uh, the European settlement happened in the Pacific Northwest like less than 200 years ago, 150 years. , The North Cascades just have had successive waves of, white settlers coming in to kind of take advantage of the resources At first, the very first wave was min gold mining. Actually, there was a small amount of gold found in some of the, the creeks and rivers up around Ross Lake, and that brought on , prospectors and then small like villages to support the prospectors and some really wild, um. Trail building. Craig, if you remember from our book,, I think that the, where the North Cascades highway is now is actually kind of built along the original miners path, and that's why sometimes that highway is just clinging to a cliff. Yep. Above the river, there's, there's a few remnants sections of the old trail. So the, the mining was really the first wave and,, it didn't produce a lot of wealth. It kind of petered out pretty su pretty quick. And,, I think loggers came in next, those giant old growth trees that, that we all love that there's not many left of the mm-hmm. The whole sca, you know, all those river valleys were full of, , giant cedars and dug furs and spruce and so. There was a, a phase of logging and around the same time, , a , man named JD Ross got up in there, up into the Skagit and saw the, , the really narrow gorges that the Skagit River was pulsing through and saw this, uh, opportunity for hydropower. , And that's where the three dams on the Skagit River came from, JD Ross and lobbied the Seattle City Council to fund this. , Really giant for the time of Public Works project that lasted for over a decade, , building Ross Diablo and Gorge dams. And, that's where the town of New Halem, that's way up there in the mountains came from, was, , originally a an upper Skagit Indian tribe, traditional, village and then later became a, work camp for the Seattle City Light, the dam building, and, , still is a, a company town. It takes a lot less people to run that hydropower project than it did back in the day, but. And a little, little trivia. If you're in New ha, you're on a 2 0 6 area code, you are no longer in a 3 6 0. So that's Seattle because there's just this little, Seattle pocket. Uh, so anyways, that's something you can check out. Next time we there, you're gonna be calling 2 0 6. No. Yeah. And another odd quirk like that, Craig, is that it's, , when you get into New Hare back in Whatcom County, even though you've been dragged up to Skagit River, , you're going all the way through Skagit County, um, on your way into the mountains, and then when you pop into. New Halem and then into the national park here, actually in Eastern Whatcom County. Right. But, those are three of the fa you know, those are three of , the big waves, or early waves was like mining and then logging and then dam building. And you know, jumping ahead, it, it, that when those activities kind of were not as active, there was. The big push to, to conserve this area and the North Cascades Conservation Council was formed in the 19, probably late fifties, but really active in the sixties. And,, it was a really pop, it was the. Roadless area, and there was no highway going across and just not very well known in the state. But they, there was a long campaign, decades long campaign to create the national park. First the, you know, first the National Forest in Mount Bakers Salme. National Forest is huge, and so that, was the first protected land, but then to create the national park inside the National Forest. And so now the human story is, has a lot to do with like tourism and natural people that go up to sea wildlife and people that go up to hike. And, there's some great campgrounds scattered throughout, but then also it's really a famous alpine area for mountain climbing. The Fred, Becky getting in there, putting up a, first descents in the, the picket range and all these really jagged, rugged, remote, , mountains. It's become a, it's a place, now I think for like both recreation, but it's really seen as a place for renewal as well because it's,, relative to our other national parks in the state. You know, it's, it's quieter, it's less visited., Majority of the visitors to North Cascades National Park, for instance, are, you know, I would say like 80% are never go further than two miles away from the highway. So you just go a little bit further or a little bit further. After that maybe, um, overnight backpack you can really get away, get away from. Civilization pretty easily. And so I think it's really valued now instead of trying to find gold or trying to pull out old growth trees as a place for solitude and peace and spiritual renewal. Yeah. In what you mentioned about the North Cascade National Park too, there was talks about trying to establish a park there since the thirties and then with the, , north cascaded, conservation Commission , council. With Harvey Manning was very, very instrumental in, the timber interests were so powerful during that time, and that was so much of the talk about, , not allowing this happened. So eventually it was 1968 when, when it became a national park along with Redwood, another area fighting timber atress became national parks. There was a lot of compromise in even building the border. Highway 20 was completed during that same, same time period. And for a lot of people driving Highway 20, they actually never go into North Cascade National Park. The National Park has very little road. There's a tiny bit of a road that comes in from the Cascade River and a tiny bit of tecan. So most people have never even been in the park when they think they're in the park. Mm-hmm. So, so that's interesting. So it is, it is one of the least visited. Of, our major national parks in the lower 48. Yeah. You really have to have an effort to get in there. And there's not a lot of trails either. It's a, it's a pretty, , big wilderness area. And you know, Christian, we talked about in our book and everything, some of the, the schemes originally when they put, they wanted to put a, you know, tramway up Ruby Mountain and some of these things. And again, how that would've changed, uh mm-hmm. You know, uh. This whole park now because it's truly one of our, one of our, of our few wilderness parks, you know, Rainier wonderful Park, but it's got roads all around it. This is one of the few places that you really can, um, you know, do all that renewal and everything, get in there. So Christian and Craig, I would love to like transition into talking about some of your favorite hikes, and I know both of you know this area really well and you know, obviously we could do an entire podcast. Not an episode, but like a whole podcast about hiking the North Cascades. So maybe let's start with, could each of you share a favorite that's like close to the North Cascades Institute facility there? So let's start with that and then we'll get a little further away from there. I'm gonna share two, , that are just really simple and flat. Mostly flat hikes. They just, they offer such a, they offer great opportunities for like walking slow and noticing the details of nature. And one is just the Diablo Lake Trail., I have to mention that one because it starts in the parking lot of the environmental learning center. So, the trail runs right behind our campus and. Craig, you might know off the top of your head at how many miles? Maybe five miles up to Ross Dam. Oh, it's less than that. Yeah. Yeah. I think it's about eight mile round trip yeah, that's a great one. It's, pretty much flat the whole way, but it gives these really beautiful peaks of Diablo Lake from different angles, and you can look across the lake to pyramid and colonial peaks, um, which are, or just. Peaks rising above the lake and just a really nice forest., Never been logged before. So, um native wildflowers, native birds, , fa very family friendly. Uh, and it terminates up at, uh, up at Ross Dam up the way and there's this really cool kind of suspension bridge goes over.. The, I don't know what that's, I guess that's called Diablo Lake, right? Right beneath Ross Dam. A really pool. So you can come, you could pop out from that trail, go across the suspension, bridge and hike up to Highway 20, catch a ride back to your car. Or you could just turn around and loop it. Not loop, but in and out. And then the second one I'll mention really quick, which is act actually like my very favorite, is Thunder Creek Trail. And I heard you guys talking about it on your last North Cascades podcast. It's just such a gem. Um, it starts to Colonial Creek Campground. It's like directly across the lake from the learning center. Yeah. And there's a campground, pretty busy campground there at the Trailhead, but if you just hike, I don't know, like two-ish miles up to the footbridge, there's some really, really big trees in that section. Huge cedars and, uh, some really cool, like glacial erratics. , It's a little bit of a fairytale kind of feeling to me when I go in there. It's really mossy. Big trees, in September, october, it's um, amazing mushrooms of dozens of different kinds of mushrooms growing over where, everywhere. So that one's I recommend 'cause it's just easy to get to and like within five minutes you're just really in this magical zone along the Thunder Creek. Love it. Yeah. That is, one of my favorites for all the reasons you mentioned, but also I. There's solitude there. I mean, it's a, it's a really mellow hike, but you get up there a couple miles and there's like nobody there. Even on like a Sunday at the end of July. When everything is like bonkers. So anyway, I love it. Okay, Craig. Alright, so what about you? I'm favorite in this area. I'm gonna change here. 'cause Jennie knows, 'cause my favorites are the exact opposite scales. You're gonna give us some like thigh burning? Yes. 4,000 foot nonsense, which is great because people want that too. People want that. Craig. Yeah, and I'll tell you my. One of my absolute favorite hikes, not only in the Na North Cascades, but actually in the state of Washington. It's my hundred classic books. And there's a real reason for this because I first did this hike when I was a, a young, a young explorer from the east coast. I was in my twenties, I was passing through the first time. And that's Sourdough Mountain. I absolutely love Sourdough Mountain. I've been up there many, many, many, many, many times and I, and, , there was a fire there recently, you're looking at 11 mile round trip, uh, 5,500 feet of vertical. I love the challenge on that, and that keeps the crowds down. Um, but there's a restored lookout up there., The poets that, that, that staffed these back in the fifties. Um, a lot of history, history there. The view is outta this world. And that was the view that first, uh, connected me, uh, to the North Cascades being on the top. And this was in July of 1985. Let me tell you. If you don't believe, if, if anyone's denying climate change, I tell you how much snow in July and, and how big those glaciers are, because in 40 years since I've been going up and, and seeing the, the recession of the snow, but it's one of the best views, that you're gonna get, period. It's just an incredible, incredible hike., So if you got the energy, definitely, definitely do that. Another one of my favorites. In that area, uh, is Trapper Peak, which is a, another similar one through the Thornton Lakes. This is right outside of New Halm. Same, not as steep little heart, but, the Summit Trail was never actually officially built. So it's kind of a scramble path. You're gonna use your hands on some of it. If you're a little, you know, wigged out about exposure. There's a little bit there. But you get on the top of that and you're gonna get the best view of the pickets without being on the pickets. I mean, they're right there. And then you're gonna look straight down at new Haem. So that's incredible. And I mean, straight down. And then you're gonna look at the pickets, the whole thing. So those are probably two of my absolute, but I have many. Favorites there. The Thunder Creek I love too. Yeah. But much farther up. Gotta go past the old Skagit queen mine and all that. Yeah. You can't go wrong from the, from the nature hikes, die. Die screamers. Yeah. You've got some great choices there. Yeah, for sure. So I know Christian. You told me before that you really love kind of the Mount Baker highway area, and so I was thinking we could talk about some area. Now I know our listeners in Bellingham are very familiar with hikes along the Mount Baker Highway, but other people might not. So can you share one or two favorites up there that,, hopefully people in Bellingham won't be too mad for you. Yeah, that's a good, that's a good caveat. Mount Baker Highway is Bellingham Backyard. Yeah. Uh, highway 5 42 comes right outta town. Yep. Hour and a half up to the ski area. And, the end of the road, the terminus at, at, um, Heather Meadows, um, artist Point, and it's our, it's our. Backyard. Um, easy access. It's changed a lot. Like Craig's talking about 85, 95, like the amount of people that are accessing trails up there has changed. Quite a bit. Um, so I can't tell the secret spots, but there are still like, especially, you know, here we are in July, like going up midweek is a really good strategy Monday to Friday. Yeah. Um, you know, it's worth a vacation day up there. It is. Yeah, for sure. Um, so some of the great ways to just introduce yourself to the area, you can't go wrong with, uh, going up to Hannigan Pass Trail. That one's, um, a nice grade going, following up. Ruth Creek, I think it is up to a really lovely pass and you can see, um, a Glacier Ruth, is it Ruth Mountain? That's the big. Yeah. Ruth kind of, yeah. So I, that one's a great, that one's really good to, to note for yourself for an early season hike. That's a, lower elevation. Just make sure not too early. 'cause that's serious avalanche country in there, so you wanna make sure. Another favorite is, it's been discovered so I can say it yellow as Butte. You got a lot of Canadian accents up there too. They know about it even up there. So that one's ridiculous for like how much bang for the buck. You get it. It is got a kind of a steep ish as scent to it, but it's short before you're popping out into the Alpine and um, seeing a lot of beautiful tarns up there in Meadows. But you're looking across the Nooksack. Right at Mount Baker., once the, , snows have melted out, we're talking July, even into August, , September. Artist point at the tip top. Yeah, the end of the highway. I love going out Togan Ridge every year. It's just, I guess that's another flat. That might be saying something about me that I'm sharing a lot of money. You shared the flat hikes. Christian, it's not flat. I, I applaud you for that and I agree. I went to that, I did that one in September last year and it's the best. It was amazing. Yeah. So it's flat. Flat, it goes over the rolling. You've got a couple thousand feet up down. So Tarin is also one of my a hundred classic hikes and it is spectacular. Yeah. Same thing you guys are saying. In September, October, I've gone with the color, but I'll tell you one, once I was up there totally whited out, fogged out, you know, couldn't see a darn thing. One of the coolest experiences I had, it sounded like we were, like, there was a space invasion. Uh, what it was, it was gans, the birds. Hence the name, and they were just starting to turn white. So they were standing out on the green on there and it was one of the best experiences I ever had. It's really cool. On one of the worst days as far as scenery. So you're not always gonna get those, those bluebird days, but you might get a Tar Magan day, so a Tar magan bird day. So, yeah, that, you know, speaking of natural history, I've also seen, a lot of mountain goat when I'm hiking up farming. And once you get away from the trailhead, , maybe an hour in or something, the, meadows and drainages are sloping down towards Baker Lake. On the other side. And in those, uh, seems like in those high, uh, high end parts of the drainages, there's a lot of mountain goats, which is really cool. Yeah. Sometimes like 20 of 'em sprinkled across, you know? Yeah. Good to bring binoculars on that hike. Yeah, that's a really good idea. You know, one other thing I was thinking too, about. Some of these hikes that we're talking about that are at quite high altitude, like you're gonna on a flatter hike, you're gonna feel it more if you're starting at like 5,000 feet. At least. Around four to 5,000 feet is where I can tell. Oh, this is, you know, and then up from there. 'cause I'm a flatland baby. I'm from here, which is mountainy, but like, I've always lived at sea level, which my husband makes fun of me for that because he grew up in Yellowstone. So he's always like, when he, when there's no oxygen, he's like, fine. And I'm like. Well, my brain got more oxygen as a mm-hmm. Anyway. Yeah. You know, another thing that, so you gotta be careful about that too, when you're thinking about your, like speed and distance and climbing and you're starting high and stay hydrated. One of the biggest thing with dealing a, a lot of people have trouble if, if you're dehydrated on elevation. So yeah, drink plenty on the way to the trailhead. Yeah. Yeah. You know, and, and another draw to five 40 highway 5 42 as opposed to going up to National Park is you're in, mostly in the Mount Baker Snoqualmie National Forest and there's a lot of dispersed camping. So yeah, when it comes summertime like it is now, and all the campgrounds are reserved, you know, for the next. Until Labor Day weekend, there's not a spot to be found. There's quite a bit, you can find lots of dispersed spots along, uh, glacier Creek and Ruth Creek and upper nook sack area. Yep. Where you don't, don't always, uh, plan ahead like you're going spur of the moment. Like, I wanna go sleep in the woods tonight or this weekend. I got nothing to do. And if you don't have those campground reservations, you know you gotta go find your own spot. So there's a lot of them up, up on the Mount Baker. Yeah. Highway. It's a good, really good tip. Really important this time of year. One of the best hikes in the area that's not killer, a lot of people go up Excelsior, they'll come up, they'll come up from the backside. It's easier. So here's the thing, if you want an amazing hike, do a one way position. Your, your cars go up, Excelsior. From the back wave and then go across. Um, the high divide, which is out, which is the cover of my a hundred classic hikes book, is that hike. It's one of the most beautiful for shucks in and baker. And then come down, welcome, pass, and drop down that way. So you're gonna be going downhill on an incredibly steep hike. You're gonna have miles of that hike that you're not gonna be, , dealing with crowds. You, may actually be all, all by yourself there, even on a beautiful summer day. So again, it's just being creative on these things. One of my favorite hikes in the area too, which is one of the most popular hikes, and the reason I've taken my parents up there, I've taken is the chain, the the chain of lakes, which again, , you can't go wrong with that hike. Um, it's an eight mile. Round trip, you can go, you go up a couple passes, you go by so many lakes. It is incredible the views, the bookends of looking at Chucks in and baker. It's a great hike to introduce people to because it's not overly difficult, uh, but it's enough that you're gonna feel it. You get a little elevation. There are camping opportunities back country campsites that, that you can go in there. It is just an amazing, an amazing hike in, in Heather Meadows. So that's also one of my a hundred classics too. You can't go wrong with it. So before we wrap up, is there anything that's just like, oh, if I don't get this out, my head's gonna explode. The name of the. Fire lookout on Park Butte. Is it Park Butte? Lookout? It's Park Butte, yeah. Okay. Yeah. Yeah. That's a great, great hike. If we're. Staying on the theme of kind of a little bit more accessible, um, to get to, I think Park Butte and railroad grade are just,, absolute killers of hikes. You bring somebody from outta state up there and they can't believe their eyes. You are, railroad grade is a, a ridge top. This is from,, accessed from the the Baker Lake. Which is , near concrete. Highway 20. Yeah, yeah. Highway 20. Near concrete. Yeah, bigger lake. Hiking up this ridge top on railroad grade, you are looking directly down at, uh, a glacier pouring off of Mount Baker. All the ice and crevasses and um, really. Primeval kind of scene. And it's just not that hard to get to. You go through the Scott Paul Trail, or really beautiful meadows down below, head up, railroad grade, just literally right on the edge of the glaciers, you could see that top of Mount Baker. And then there's this little gem, not, a hidden gem, but Park Butte Lookout is in that area too. . It's just a strategically located, you know, they put lookouts where there's the best views and some of the most substative views. That's why, they put 'em there. So you're gonna have to park lookout, which is, restored and maintained by a group. And, the view of Mount Baker and the glaciers and the, Skagit Valley below you as one of a kind experience. I, I agree with you Christian. Uh, park Butte is one of my a hundred classic hikes too, and I actually did that in 1985, the same trip that I first did sourdough. I've been up that one many, many times. I've taken my son up there when he was like five or six, uh, and then the railroad grade. Yeah. You were on, you were on lateral rain. That looks like a railroad trestle, from when you're, so if you're hiking, the Scott Paul Trail, you're looking at, it looks like a railroad trestle. And that's where, where it got its name like a cog railway., And I remember one of the hottest days of the year, my wife and I, , we escaped the valley and went up there on a 90 something degree day in August just to hang out at the base of the glacier. 'cause it's not that. Far to get to. It's an hour drive from where I live to get up there. So it's, wonderful hike. Um, yeah, it's gonna be, it's gonna be popular. It was popular back in 1985, but be creative on your timing. I've gone late in the year, uh, late October. It's been quiet. It's beautiful up there. It's quiet. The, the tarns are dry, but the blueberry, uh, you know, just red carpets and everything. Um, yeah, you spectacular hike. Spectacular choice. Well, Christian, it has been amazing having you with us. I know Craig has known you a long time, but I just got to meet you and it was such a mm-hmm. Pleasure. How fun. So thank you so much for being here. Yeah, yeah. I'll do this anytime you guys wanna talk. Mountains and natural history and yeah. Uh, best places in the Northwest. . So thanks for having me on. Yeah. Thank you for being here. Thank you again to visit Bellingham in Whatcom County for sponsoring us for the month of July. And if you are enjoying this podcast, we would love to have you give us a rating or a review. And I know that you hear that all the time in the middle or at the end of every podcast, but it really does make a difference. It helps people find us when they're looking for podcasts and it makes a big difference. So it doesn't matter what app you're using or how you do it, but it really does help. And so that's why we're asking you for it. Alright, see you next week.